View Full Version : H&K P7
Who owns an H&K P7?
I'm seriously considering buying a P7M8 next month.
If you own one, tell me about it.
To me it is more "cool" than greater function. That said it is very cool, they are well made and accurate pistols. They have a nice fit in your hand even with the front strap cocker. It is a gun I play with more than anything. But after all I am a 1911 nut.:p Here is a couple pics....
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN0680.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN0679.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN0681.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN0682.jpg
Don't have one but HAD an M8 for some time. (a qualified opinion!)
I really liked mine but it was a novelty for me, as I cannot CCW here in LA County. It was also the 3rd gun in my safe that was no longer being produced or imported (225, 228, P7) and I sorta worried about the cost and ease of long term upkeep. A buddy made an offer I couldn't refuse.
I do miss it a bit. It is built like a 210- very tough and very tight tolerances. Mine was very accurate and very fast.
If you are thinking about it, I'd say go for it. They are unique and quiet cool, IMO.
varoadking
09-27-08, 20:02
I'm not much for the 9mm, but if I could have only one 9mm...this would likely be it.
I have two of them - one a hard chromed '88 Chantilly (below). Both are uber accurate, well balanced and high quality builds...that they ain't buildin' any more...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/varoadking/guns018.jpg
Getcha one...
Well made and very accurate. Easy to carry (if you are used to carrying 1911 style pistols). I recently took a handgun course to see how this platform would perform and found the following negatives:
-after 3+ mags of rapid fire the trigger guard gets real hot (I had burns on my middle finger)
-middle finger can become tender after many rounds of contact with the trigger guard (some may have experienced this on Ar's w/o a gapper)
-squeeze cocker became difficult to manipulate after a few hundred rounds
Solid overbuilt 9mm. I did not find the weight to be a factor. Great range as gun and amazingly accurate for its size.
I carried one for 7 years.....
Wait, didn't we already have this discussion?? :rolleyes:
Buy the damn thing.
Just got my back from HK customer service, so I can reflect on both pistol and current state of HK's customer support.
I am sure you've found already what's considered pros and cons of this system. BTW, I don't consider low capacity and heavy weight as cons.
I've owned mine since 2004 and I have about 8K rounds through it. It was flawless for 7200 rounds; after that, malfunctions and parts failure started to occur and I'll touch on it later.
Mine went through 1.5 of LAV's classes without any issues. It is a ridiculously fast pistol; by far the fastest pistol I know to reload from slide lock. Truly ambidextrous and probably the easiest to manipulate one-handed. There are many other positive things about it.
My take on negatives:
1. Overheating. Anything but slow low volume fire requires gloves.
2. Lack of local expertise. These pistols, while not infrequent, are not well known by gunsmiths. You are left with internet or HK CS as your resources. My pistol developed cycling problems, and there is basically one answer that you are going to hear is this: "Dirty gas chamber". The fact that gun went for 7200 rounds non-stop with the same maintenance routine gets ignored.
3. HK customer service - in my opinion, still sucks. They are not easy to get ahold of, although, in all fairness, my last two attempts to contact them were fine; Linc, the guy who handles the calls, seemed responsive and helpful. I did send pistol to them - you pay for shipping - and it came back with the diagnosis of ..."dirty chamber". Next range trip - pistol became completely inoperable. No, they wouldn't pay for shipping back to them even though the pistol was just in their hands and they missed something. When it came back today, it came back with new barrel due to gas port erosion, new piston due to wear [how the hell did they miss it first time, unless these parts were replaced just to make it up to me?], and two new springs. I am very disappointed that I had to spend $140 on shipping to get it done right.
4. Parts are tough to find. I had FP bushing break, and I couldn't find one anywhere. Getting one from HK CS took exactly one month (this is a part that takes 10 seconds to install, btw).
5. Trigger has long reset.
6. Last point could be questionable. There are quite a few holster makers who offer gear for P7M8, but I don't think many know this platform well. I have two leather holsters from two different really-big-name makers. One took one day to break, and works marvelously. Second one never loosened to appropriate fit after one month of plastic bags and parchment paper break-in.
My two cents, please adjust for inflation.
Roadking- that gun is just sexy as hell. :)
Army Chief
09-28-08, 02:22
I've owned the P7, P7M8, P7M13 and P7M10 variants over the years, and strongly favor the design, even today. The truth is that 1911s and P7s are the only handguns that I currently have any desire to own.
The P7s reputation for quality, speed and innovation is well-known, so I'll dispense with the usual commercial on those points. What I will say is that I strongly favor the original P7 and P7M8 form factors. The former is perhaps the greatest CCW arm ever devised, but the latter is a much better choice for hard use or class purposes, as heating will be much less of an issue, and magazine changes will be faster and more intuitive.
The problem, if indeed there is a problem, is that some runs of the P7M8 contain parts that seem to be more prone to breakage than others. The most relevant of these is the firing pin bushing, just as YVK reported. You can likely gather some additional intel on which production years are likely to be affected on the Park Cities Tactical boards, but in general the rule of thumb is that the older the pistol, the safer the bet.
I would buy another P7M8 without hesitation, and now that they are out of production, they are certainly not going to be getting any easier to find.
Chief
Who owns an H&K P7?
I'm seriously considering buying a P7M8 next month.
If you own one, tell me about it.
I have a P7 PSP. My only HK pistol. It is a great conceal carry piece.
Pros: Fast, Accurate, Reliable. Built to last a lifetime.
Cons: Can't do prolong training or shooting (It gets so hot it BBQ's your hand) and If parts break they are expensive and hard to find as are accessories.
FWIW I really like the HK P7 but find the G19 a much more practical gun in this class of pistols.
RogerinTPA
09-28-08, 09:07
Hey Chief, what's your opinion on the P7M13? I saw one at a gun store a the other day and was contemplating buying it if its still there.
Army Chief
09-28-08, 09:37
RH,
I owned an M13 for some 15 years, and would pick up another if the price was right. I sold mine to fund a Wilson Stealth 1911 about 8 years ago, and in the meantime, M13 prices went off the deep end.
The M13 brings all of the considerable advantages of the P7 system into play, and features one of the most reliable high capacity magazines ever designed for an autoloader. Yes, those magazines are expensive, and somewhat hard to find, but they are truly an engineering work of art. The M13 is exceptionally well-made, durable, and an engineering feat in it's own right.
P7s have a strange way of breeding in one's safe, and few owners seem to stop at just one. I was no different, and oddly enough, I think that what caused me to stray from the M13 was the purchase of my first M8. I've got medium-sized hands, and the trim lines of the M8 really made the M13 feel blocky by comparison; so much so, that I stopped carrying the M13 in favor of the M8. Eventually, I stopped carrying the M8 in favor of the original P7 form factor, so I have to add the disclaimer that I actually prefer the thinnest, most compact variant to the exclusion of all others.
There isn't a thing in the world wrong with the M13, and they are not at all trouble-prone; that said, I think that you need relatively large mitts to find it especially comfortable. If you're running it in a class or a competition, you can expect astonishing -- and I mean astonishing -- speed, but you'll probably want to wear gloves if you're planning on firing more than a couple of boxes of ammo in a single session. I've never found the heat issue to be especially problematic, but then, it was not my practice to regularly fire extended strings in rapid succession.
Chief
A couple of thoughts: I carried and competed with a P7 for over a decade. Have owned over 10 P7s for most of that time and easily have 100K of rounds thru them. I still own multiple 13s etc.
M13’s are running about 1800.00 and 8’s are in the 1200-1300 range. If the gun will be for fun or carry, (not competition) pick up one of the PSP (heel release) that are coming in from Germany in the 550 to 700 range. These guns are police trade ins and marked by HK - A, B and C condition. The As look almost unfired. And, yes there are thousands more P7s with heel releases coming in when the market absorbs the first batch.
The heel release guns are slightly smaller and don’t have the heat shield (no biggee).
Also keep in the mind the market for any P7 is very strong so if you don’t overpay too much there really is no financial downside to trying one and not liking it.
jon
A friend of mine collects P7s, I believe he has 11 or 12 of them at this point including a 25th anniversary gun H&K gave him as a gift complete with his signature engraved on it.
Personally, while I appreciate the size of the gun and some of the ergonomics, it has enough drawbacks that it's hard to justify as a serious carry weapon:
The heat buildup has been mentioned repeatedly and bears mentioning again. It's severe if you want to practice rapid fire drills. The buddy I mentioned above brought his P7 to a Blackwater class we attended years ago ... he actually had to bring three P7M8's. He would shoot one for a drill or two, then rotate it with one of the others, which he kept in a cooler with some ice packs. It was the only way to shoot that many rounds in a day for days on end without injuring himself.
The guns are very butt-heavy, so holster selection can be tricky. Some of the smaller custom guys who actually understand how different guns require different holsters can give you what you need.
The trigger reset on every P7 I've handled has been longer than necessary for a single action gun.
The manual of arms is unique and requires dedicated training to master. More than a few people have squeezed the trigger simultaneous to squeezing the cocker and set off a round unintentionally.
If you want to use one as a daily carry weapon, you really need to have at least two if not three in your inventory to handle periods of parts breakage, etc. even if you're not worried about the heat buildup during practice sessions. If the P7 breaks -- and eventually it will, like any gun -- you'll be hard pressed to get it fixed and back into service quickly.
The P7 is so accurate in large part due to its fixed barrel. There is no question, they're phenomenally accurate guns.
For the cost, size, and weight it's hard to justify compared to many of the newer guns on the market. But I must admit, if not for the heat issue, I probably would have carried one at various times in the past.
I just want to throw a voice of dissent with p7fl and Army Chief. This is not to get into argument, but for the sake of informative discussion.
I've looked and played with PSPs and tried to like the heel release system. I couldn't. I think that it loses some of the biggest benefits of this platform - lightning-fast magazine exchanges and reloads, and one-handed manipulations. I believe that these benefits is just as [if not more so] important with carry pistols as it is with competition. Unless you choose not to carry a spare magazine at all.
With PSP, you need two hands just to remove the mag from the pistol - one can see how this may inhibit one-handed work.
I've heard people say that they can reload heel-released PSP just as fast as P7M8. I guess everything is possible with practice; Jerry Miculek reloads revolver faster than most people reload pistols. M8 is just very easy to reload fast.
You also need to research an availability of spare mags. I know that M8's are available, albeit very expensive. I don't know about PSP mags.
PS. After re-reading Army Chief's and p7fl's posts, it is evident that the point of disagreement is not whether M8 is faster to reload than PSP. I see that this fact is acknowledged in both of their posts, directly or indirectly. I guess that the point of contention is whether these speed increments are worth the extra-cost for carry purposes.
30 cal slut
09-28-08, 16:43
Owned several M8's and M13's.
You know, they are a great little gun, very concealable, very safe and very accurate.
But for the money ... crikey, that's almost four S&W M&P's. Or a brand new top-shelf carbine.
And, as stated in numerous places, they do get uncomfortably hot.
I owned a P7 for about a year. It was accurate, heavy, and to my dissapointment jammed 3x in the first 500 rounds - something my glock 9mms haven't done. Given the greater weight than a glock 19, an in my sample of 1 poorer liability, I sold it. In fairness to it, I think they may need more perfectionistic application of lube than I'm used to. Oh, almost forgot. It is frustrating that if anything breaks you're dealing with a pistol that is no longer manufactured and is hard to find spare parts for. That sucks. In my opinion, if you want a SA 9mm, think BHP.
Sidewinder6
09-28-08, 20:08
I have been a P7 owner since they were first produced. Carried one as a duty weapon and think the gun is excellent for a concealed firearm.
Having owned the PSP and then the M8, I think the latter improves reload speed and this gun shaves your times in half.
The heat is a distraction if your running hard but hopefully this does not mirror real life in your world.
Then there is the unbelievable trigger and accuracy which is a major factor to consider. The guns are great, right out of the box and reliable as long as you practice being used to the squeeze cocker from the holster.
Good luck.
sigmundsauer
09-28-08, 20:50
The P7M8 is by far the fastest and smoothest firing pistol I've ever run.
It has some drawbacks, but many will make them out to be more than they practically are.
I'd argue that there isn't a faster gun. Period.
Tim
Army Chief
09-29-08, 00:41
I just want to throw a voice of dissent with p7fl and Army Chief. This is not to get into argument, but for the sake of informative discussion.
There is no dissent, really. I've reached the point where I can reload a heel-catch P7 with what I consider to be more than adequate speed, but there is no way that it is ever going to be as fast as an M model P7.
Where our opinions might differ slightly is whether or not a lightning fast reload is of paramount importance in a CCW situation. My first CCW priority is simply to have a gun. After that, I want to make sure it is of sufficient caliber to do the job. Third, I'm concerned about accuracy and my ability to shoot it well. (Maybe I've got two and three reversed, but you get the general idea.)
Somewhere around fourth place, I begin to be concerned with having a fresh mag on me and the ability to reload quickly, should that ever become necessary. The way I see it, if I'm in a situation where it takes more than 3-5 rounds to deal with the threat, then I've probably got bigger problems than the extra half-second it is going to take me to run a fresh mag up the tunnel. I don't say this to negate your point at all, but if I find myself in an extended fight, I'm probably going to be reloading from behind some kind of cover, anyway -- and wishing I had brought an AR. :)
Admittedly, what follows is only my opinion, but what I feel I've gained with the P7 (non-M) is a more positive mag lock-up that is less likely to be accidentally activated in a CCW role, less snag potential, a noticeably thinner profile, and a slightly smaller overall form factor; all of which rate high on my particular list of CCW priorities.
When I want a full-power conventional CCW capability, I'm still going to opt for a 1911, but as a replacement for a smaller, handier weapon, the P7 variant that Americans somewhat inaccurately refer to as the PSP is still awfully hard to beat. In my pre-P7 years, I often carried a SIG P230 for this purpose, and the P7 shines in this role.
One double-tap, though: Todd mentions that these pistols are butt-heavy, and while I think it would probably be more accurate to observe that they simply have very short and light slides/barrels, he is absolutely right about the criticality of proper holster selection. If you do choose to carry a P7 of whatever flavor, make sure you've invested in quality leather designed specifically for that model.
Chief
I used an early production P7M8 for a duty gun for about three years. I loved the gun and it shot very well. It is well described above except for one design flaw that scared the heck out of me and I quit carrying it.
I read about this problem on other threads and dismissed it until it actually happened to me on the range. I personally know one other P7M8 shooter that had the same thing happen to him.
As part of our qualification we had to perform malfunction drills a couple of times a year. When grasping the slide to perform a tap, rack, bang drill I apparently hit the disassembly button at the same time and ended up with the slide in my left hand and the pistol frame in my right. My acquaintance was shooting in an IPSC match, had a malfunction, and ended up with a disassembled pistol in his hands. The other threads I mentioned suggested shortening the disassembly button to avoid this problem.
I loved the pistol and shot well with it but didn't feel confident after that. I ended up going back to the 1911 for duty.
Well made and very accurate. Easy to carry (if you are used to carrying 1911 style pistols). I recently took a handgun course to see how this platform would perform and found the following negatives:
-after 3+ mags of rapid fire the trigger guard gets real hot (I had burns on my middle finger)
-middle finger can become tender after many rounds of contact with the trigger guard (some may have experienced this on Ar's w/o a gapper)
-squeeze cocker became difficult to manipulate after a few hundred rounds
Solid overbuilt 9mm. I did not find the weight to be a factor. Great range as gun and amazingly accurate for its size. I had a P7 M13 in 1988 Loved the gun untill the first extended range session when I burnt the hell out of my Middle and trigger finger, I saw it as a design flaw and sold the gun for what I paid for it. Kinda wishing I'd kept it because it's appreciated to over double what I gave for it. :mad:
As part of our qualification we had to perform malfunction drills a couple of times a year. When grasping the slide to perform a tap, rack, bang drill I apparently hit the disassembly button at the same time and ended up with the slide in my left hand and the pistol frame in my right.
Certianly possible, especially if you are using the "sling-shot" method of grasping the slide. I would not consider it a design flaw though.
sigmundsauer
09-29-08, 17:56
I had a P7 M13 in 1988 Loved the gun untill the first extended range session when I burnt the hell out of my Middle and trigger finger, I saw it as a design flaw and sold the gun for what I paid for it. Kinda wishing I'd kept it because it's appreciated to over double what I gave for it. :mad:
I would not consider it a design flaw either. It's simply one of the unique trade-offs of its particular design, like any other pistol. It is only a factor in extended shooting sessions, which only the most ambitious of us push it to that limit, definitely not the average lawman or armed civilian. It can do almost everything that a defensive pistol is required to do, if not better.
Heat build up is an inconvenience in one's training regimen. I work around it. If you must shoot one pistol non-stop for whatever reason, it's not a good choice. I own two or more of my favorite pistols anyway, so the P7 is no bother to me.
I consider the P7M8 a spoiler. If you've never shot one, then don't, because once you do there is no going back. It is one of the finest shooting weapons available. It's not particularly corrosion resistant, nor is it cheap or have great capacity, but for putting accurate shots on target at the speed of light, there are none better, imo.
Tim
I had two P-7M8s and am now down to one.
It is an accurate shooting gun, compact, feels great in the hands. It has a crisp trigger and shoots fantastically. I found for things like shooting plates I always did much better with the P-7 than I did with many other handguns, Glock included.
But in my experience I found the P-7 to be prone to breakage and not great at feeding a variety of ammo.
First, I found neither of mine would function reliably with the Winchester 127 grain +P+ or the 147 grain. It seems the shape of these rounds cause problems. I have spoken to some other owners who have not experienced those problems. With my two guns it seemed that if the round deviated from a roundish shape there were problems. I also experienced problems with Winchester +P+ 115 grain JHP. However, I have fired something like 300 rounds of rounds of Speer +P 124 grain Gold Dots without a single problem.
In the course of 2000-3000 rounds fired over 17 years I had the gun break twice. The first time in the course of shooting shomething broke so that the gun no longer cocked when the grips were squeezed.
The second time it started failing to detonate random rounds of factory ammo. If I unsqueezed the sqeezcocker and resqueezed it would then fire the rounds. The gun was always cleaned after shooting.
In both situations the gun was repaired by the factory in a reasonable period of time. I have had nothing but great interactions with HK.
My big concern would be as the years go on H&K might not have spare parts or people exerienced in working on P7s.
Also, as had been pointed out, it does have a unique manual of arms that requires practice. The gun does get hot but this only seems to be an issue with classes that fire a high number of rounds over a short period of time. I ran one as my handgun through Crucible without it becoming unmanagablly hot.
I had one of the latest p7m8 models, put a whole new meaning to the word BBQ gun!. I had to order it without ever getting to handle one and once I got it I did not care for it. Its a neat gun and makes a good "collection piece" but for usage I prefer my P30 if were are just talking HK handguns.
That said I still find myself looking at them again from time to time. Had a hard chromed one at the gunshop a few weeks ago for $1025. Had a hard time leaving it there.
LonghunterCO
09-30-08, 22:30
I have had a P7m13 for years. It is a nice weapon. As others have stated it is accuarte and the m13, with its butt heavy-ness, needs a rock solid holster. Heat on long strings of fire is an issue, but for concelled carry I think the P7m8 has a lot of pluses for someone that is willing to spend time learning its unique manual of arms. I say buy it. I don't think that you will be sorry.
Any comments on the differences between the two heel-release P7 models? The flush release and the more narrow, protruding release?
From my observations, the older protruding release seems to have slimmer grips.
Any other differences? Strength, durability, usability?
Thanks.
Army Chief
10-02-08, 01:09
Own both, and the differences are minimal; that said, I probably prefer the rarely-seen early (protruding) model. The change was made largely because of concerns that the magazine could inadvertently be ejected (while seated in a cruiser, for example). This may or may not have been a particularly valid issue, and in any event there is a world of difference between a police/duty holster and the typical CCW raked design. I've never had a problem.
The protruding release offers a very positive actuation and has a tactile advantage, which aids in more rapid reloads. The butt is more contoured, and the grips are slightly smaller, following the lines of the frame. This can be felt in the hand, and makes the early models quite comfortable to hold, but is of little real consequence.
The flush release is obviously larger, and offers more purchase area. It works very well, and is only marginally less tactile in my experience. Functionally, there is no difference; I'm simply talking about the subjective component, in that the protruding release almost functions as an "extended mag release" would on another pistol. The grips on the flush release models (which comprise most of the later P7s used in Polizei service) are longer and designed to protect the release from inadvertent activation. It's a slightly less elegant, but extremely effective solution.
The size and "feel" differences are hardly worth mentioning, and in terms of carry profile, firing, manual of arms and care/maintenance, these two P7 variants are absolutely identical.
Chief
Ok, so let's say I can free up possibly up to $2000 for a handgun purchase. I would only consider spending a majority of that on a P7 variant. I'm not considering buying a P30L and 5000 rounds of ammo...
Which P7 would I want to look for? I am fond of the M13, is it worth the price over the M8? I know they are much more rare. Would I have an easier time hunting down the "perfect" M8 or would I want to stop at a not quite as perfect M13 but buy it because it's an M13?
This WILL need to be something I can recover my money and make a profit on IF I decide to sell it in a few years. I would not like to, but to justify the purchase now, I'd like to be able to see going rates much higher than I'd pay now.
Where should I go and what should I look for? What can I expect, what do I stay away from?
I'm going to stay away from plum slides, missing boxes, or excess wear or even a scratch. I will also skip anything with that foul milling mark.
Is there something specific I would definitely want to find, or at least keep an eye out for that will tell me I've found a sweet gun, even if the price isn't so sweet?
Thanks!
ETA: How about finding an M13 with great internals and bad finish wear or scratches and then sending it for hard chroming? What will that do to the value? I would imagine to a true H&K collector, it wouldn't be great but I would think that likewise, anyone interested in one in the future when they are even more scarce would still enjoy purchasing one with such a nice HC job as the one posted up above by VA Roadking,right?
What is the problem with the plum slides? I've seen them and they don't look like any kind of a problem. It's just a slightly different tint than the frame, but I think it had to do with the heat treat or something.
What is the milling mark you're referring to?
They mill straight through (I believe) the proof mark on the slide of some of them.
I am not looking for a plum slide. I'm looking to find out what I should expect to pay for very nice condition black slide.
sigmundsauer
10-18-08, 18:20
They mill straight through (I believe) the proof mark on the slide of some of them.
I am not looking for a plum slide. I'm looking to find out what I should expect to pay for very nice condition black slide.
I think that P7 ownership assumes that the slide will have some plumbing. It comes with the territory. Some more than others. If you are opposed to any degree of plumbing, the P7 is likely not for you. I've seen very few that don't have some plum tint. It absolutely is a factor of the quality of the steel and the hardening process. I find beauty in the plumbing knowing that it is an indicator of how quality the product is as opposed to cheaper guns.
Tim
If by "plumbing" you mean the gas tube pipe, I expect one of those ;)
But if that's something I need to worry about, I appreciate pointing it out.
I'm just thinking one with very little use won't be so plum, no?
I'm just thinking one with very little use won't be so plum, no?
Not true. I have two that appear to maybe be unfired and they both have plum slides. One more so than the other, but it's not a problem. It's not use that makes the slide a very slight plum color. Like sigmunsauer said, I think it has to do with the bluing process and the very hard steel in the slides.
When I look at the two I have that are slightly plum, I never think it looks cheesy, it still looks like a high quality pistol. These are both flush-release P7s. My older, protruding release P7s don't have a plum tint to the slides. Don't know why - maybe a change in the bluing process or hardness, who knows?
I'm not saying you should get one if you don't like them, I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with it. Personal preference is another thing - and completely valid.
Good luck.
olds442tyguy
10-20-08, 11:27
They're great, as long as you wear Nomex gloves.
They're great, as long as you wear Nomex gloves.
No kidding. I always take a couple of other pistols with me when I shoot a P7.
I've heard the M8 is better in that regard, because of the plastic piece in the trigger guard, but I've never shot an M8.
I never wanted the mag release on the M8. I've read of unintentional mag drops, both online and from a former M8 carrier. I also felt like the front of the M8 mags would chew up mag pouches as they came out with it's protrusion.
olds442tyguy
10-20-08, 11:56
No kidding. I always take a couple of other pistols with me when I shoot a P7.
I've heard the M8 is better in that regard, because of the plastic piece in the trigger guard, but I've never shot an M8.
The one I shot had the heat shield, I think. What really got me was that you can't rest your trigger finger anywhere on the pistol with out getting second degree burns.
A novelty gun in my opinion, but a damn beautiful one. I couldn't find pictures, but I remember seeing a Nill gripped Bruce Grey long slide model that made me drool endlessly.
The one I shot had the heat shield, I think. What really got me was that you can't rest your trigger finger anywhere on the pistol with out getting second degree burns.
A novelty gun in my opinion, but a damn beautiful one. I couldn't find pictures, but I remember seeing a Nill gripped Bruce Grey long slide model that made me drool endlessly.
Yep - I've seen that one on the Internet, somewhere. Now, talk about one slick looking gun. That thing should show up in a movie.
Yeah, I like P7s, but it is more of a novelty to me, now. I liked them more in the 90s. I carried a BHP for years and the P7 was a NICE compact option at the time. I couldn't believe how easy it was to hit with. (You just couldn't practice for a long time with it.) It has some peculiarities, but I knew what they were and it was quite acceptable.
Today, I carry a G19. I'm going to sell a couple of my P7s, which is something I never thought I would do.
Who knows, though? Next year, I could fall in love with them again...
sigmundsauer
10-20-08, 16:17
If by "novelty" y'all mean that the P7 is arguably the fastest defensive pistol ever manufactured, then I guess, yes. The fact that it heats up quickly is a minor concession. It's certainly annoying and an inconvenience during extended firing sessions, but in all other respects this pistol is truly superior to other conventional designs. I've shot darn near everything and few pistols (if any) can truly rival the P7's rare combination of speed, accuracy, and reliability, especially in such a relatively compact package. It's a revolutionary pistol that each man has to evaluate the worth of its capabilities against its considerable price for himself.
Tim
Army Chief
10-20-08, 16:27
At the risk of stepping on a few toes, I think we're getting carried away with this "heating up" business. Yes, it can and does happen, but only after sustained strings of rapid fire. You might find yourself doing that in a course (where I'm usually going to have a pair of gloves on, anyway), but it is much less likely in normal range use, and it certainly isn't a consideration in a CCW role.
Sure, P7s can get warm, but most of us aren't routinely going to be training in a mode that makes that much of a real-world concern. The M series addresses this better than the original P7, but again, unless you're planning to launch 300+ rounds in a very short period of time with bare hands, this strikes me as much ado about nothing.
Chief
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If by "novelty" y'all mean that the P7 is arguably the fastest defensive pistol ever manufactured, then I guess, yes. The fact that it heats up quickly is a minor concession. It's certainly annoying and an inconvenience during extended firing sessions, but in all other respects this pistol is truly superior to other conventional designs.
I never quite understand where the "fastest pistol" thing comes from when folks talk about the P7. Speed to first shot is meaningless between guns, since the shot should break at the moment of extension anyway. The trigger reset on a P7 is unusually long for a single action gun (at least in the dozen or so samples I've shot) so it can't be "fastest" in terms of splits. Dropping the slide on a slidelock reload is certainly easy but since, again, it should be completed before reaching full extension I'm still not sure how it can be "faster" per se.
As for the heat issue, the argument "it only matters during extended practice sessions" seems a bit weak to me. I don't care how great the P7 is, if I can't use it for "extended practice sessions" than it's certainly not going to be better than (insert alternative pistol here) + lots of serious practice.
I guarantee I can shoot a "slower" gun faster than a "fast" gun that I can't practice with seriously.
I'm not knocking the P7 and for plenty of folks I'm sure the heat issue isn't worth worrying about. But for a gun I'd train with seriously, it's simply not suitable.
I never wanted the mag release on the M8. I've read of unintentional mag drops, both online and from a former M8 carrier.
I've read of this, but have never experienced or met anybody in person who has. What strikes me as odd is that , with exception of P7, the entire line-up of HK pistols have the same type of mag release, yet we don't hear of mag drops with those other pistols. Walthers have the same type of mag release; I've not heard of P99 or PPS dropping the mag. I am really skeptical about this one...
Re heat issue: perhaps, we can try to objectify it? I've practiced with my P7M8 no later than yesterday. I expended 100 rounds over approximately 1 hour, alternating slow-rate drills such as ball and dummy and 25 yards bullseye with faster-rate drills. By the end, capped by a rapid fire of 2 mags, the pistol was almost too hot to handle.
I know for sure that 2 runs of Siebel drill can be shot with bare hands, but not 3.
As far as speed is concerned, Todd is absolutely right, the only thing that's really faster with P7 is slidelock reload.
sigmundsauer
10-20-08, 20:15
I never quite understand where the "fastest pistol" thing comes from when folks talk about the P7. Speed to first shot is meaningless between guns, since the shot should break at the moment of extension anyway. The trigger reset on a P7 is unusually long for a single action gun (at least in the dozen or so samples I've shot) so it can't be "fastest" in terms of splits. Dropping the slide on a slidelock reload is certainly easy but since, again, it should be completed before reaching full extension I'm still not sure how it can be "faster" per se.
As for the heat issue, the argument "it only matters during extended practice sessions" seems a bit weak to me. I don't care how great the P7 is, if I can't use it for "extended practice sessions" than it's certainly not going to be better than (insert alternative pistol here) + lots of serious practice.
I guarantee I can shoot a "slower" gun faster than a "fast" gun that I can't practice with seriously.
I'm not knocking the P7 and for plenty of folks I'm sure the heat issue isn't worth worrying about. But for a gun I'd train with seriously, it's simply not suitable.
Todd, perhaps another way to look at it is that trigger reset is only a factor if it is so long that you cannot reset it before sights are on target. Few pistols have a shorter trigger reset than Walther's P99. Sure, I could certainly pull the trigger rapidly at a near full auto rate but the level of marksmanship achieved would be abysmal. When comparing the P99 and P7 in my hands there is no debating that the P7 returns to sight faster. This makes sense considering the bore axis on the P7 is extremely low yet it has a remarkably low slide mass, too -- an ideal combination that few other pistols have. Yet, in all of my shooting I have never, I repeat never waited on a P7's trigger reset. The pistol is always ready to fire and returns from recoil faster than almost every other 9mm in existence. Sure, this has a lot to do with one's individual shooting technique, but I am but one among many very experienced shooters that have done my absolute fastest and most accurate shooting with a P7. I chalk up trigger reset issues as a Red Herring of sorts. It's a factor when a trigger's reset is excessively long (like a DAK) or if a shooter is so acclimated to a shorter reset pistol that they simply cannot adapt to a longer reset without short stroking, other wise I have never had a problem with any reasonably good trigger on a combat pistol. Rattling off bullets at a 3 meter target at blazing speed with little regard to sight alignment is among the few instances that a super short reset is ever going to be demonstrable advantage, imo.
Now, much of this discussion is a moot point for a master-class shooter such as you, Todd, who by virtue of prodigious amounts of training is able to master darn near any handgun that graces your hands long enough. Unfortunately, someone who shoots as much as you do is likely to never accept a pistol heating up as fast as a P7 does. On the other hand, if you're shooting as much as you are, the cost of a second P7 is mox nix.
A highly trained handgunner is all likelihood going to be able to master many different weapons and shoot them fairly equally well. The P7, however, benefits from albeit different but extremely simple and fast manual of arms that greatly simplify the task of drawing and presenting lethal force in the swiftest of motion. I would argue that few pistols possess the intrinsic accuracy, quality of trigger, and speed of recoil recovery of the P7 in a single package. In every other design you are either having to master a heavier, longer trigger or having to simultaneously manipulate a safety mechanism of some kind prior to firing. These can all be done quickly, and done well, but they will require more training.
The P7 is a true "pull and point" pistol that compromises neither speed, accuracy nor safety. I've seen my share of Glocks and M&Ps that are loosely passed off as "safe" DA pistols, but have been smithed to the point of having none of a DA pistol's intrinsic safety features, and are more practically compared to a single action pistol that is not carried on safe. I personally consider these compromises unacceptable for the average person carrying a defensive weapon, not exclusively for competition. I think the P7 excels in this regard. My chief complaint of the P7 is a matter of capacity, which I would like more of.
Tim
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-20-08, 22:22
sigmunsauer,
+1
YVK -- As a matter of fact, quite a number of people had issues with mags dropping in early full size USP's. In fact, I'd say it was a more common problem than with the P7 by many orders of magnitude.
Tim -- Granted, trigger reset is often overblown. There are benefits to a shorter reset (a subject for another time, perhaps?) but my only point, above, was that the P7 wasn't somehow superior in terms of trigger reset.
The heat issue is just something we won't agree upon, I suppose. But obviously enough people experience it that it's an issue. (I get my M&P ridiculously hot, too, but a P7 would probably literally burst into flames under some of my training conditions :cool:)
You certainly won't get a debate out of me with regards to unsafe light triggers on Glocks and M&Ps (in fact it was exactly one year ago today I wrote the post A Light Trigger Pull Is Not a Status Symbol (http://pistol-training.com/archives/65) on my site). However, as mentioned previously, the P7 trigger isn't any "faster" to the first shot if a shooter is using proper technique. No matter how long or heavy your trigger, within reason, the shot still breaks as the arms come to full extension which means it's the speed of your press-out, not the speed of your trigger finger, that determines that first shot.
I'm not slamming the P7. I'm genuinely sorry it was never able to take a more significant segment of the market. With a little aftermarket support (sights, more holsters, perhaps an extended 10rd magazine, additional heat shielding) it would have been even more viable.
They're certainly accurate little buggers, and they're reliable as hell until the owner jinxes it by bragging about how reliable his P7 is ... I've seen two of them fall apart within an hour of an over-zealous owner telling everyone that he's never had a malfunction in x-tens-of-thousands of rounds. :eek:
sigmundsauer
10-21-08, 08:13
They're certainly accurate little buggers, and they're reliable as hell until the owner jinxes it by bragging about how reliable his P7 is ... I've seen two of them fall apart within an hour of an over-zealous owner telling everyone that he's never had a malfunction in x-tens-of-thousands of rounds. :eek:
Bwahaha! Too funny. They are reliable...but not the most durable, fo' sure.
Tim
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-21-08, 14:04
Of course, that is true of all guns. I was at a Ken Hackathorn pistol class and this goofus commented on how expensive my Hk45 was he pointed to his M&P and explained to me he could get two or three for the price of my gun. Being a smart ass, I told him I thought he could get a crapload of Lorcins for the price of that M&P. Either way, during the first string his striker broke. It is nice when the gods smile on you.:D During another class I was lectured by another expert on my HK45--but their very expensive KAC M4gery went down early on.
That is why I don't brag or trash other people's guns--karma is always right there waiting to smack me down!
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(Very) Limited Field Test
Last night I borrowed a friend's P7M8 and six mags to give it a little spin. My goal was to assess it on a limited basis since it's been quite a while since I've used one. I figured it was only fair to revisit my opinions.
I fired 50 rounds in about 15 minutes going through a couple of very simple drills that are part of my normal routine. I could just as easily have fired those 50 rounds in 15 minutes shooting Dot Torture (http://pistol-training.com/drills/dot-torture) which I don't think anyone would consider "radical extreme training."
Inside the trigger guard area got very warm but not so hot the gun was unmanageable. If I'd had the time I would have put another 50-100 rounds through the gun to see where the owie point was achieved.
The side of the gun was too hot to touch and I could not place my index finger in the normal register position.
The gun suffered a stovepipe malfunction. The owner was very surprised by this, so I would not say it's indicative of the gun overall. However, it does remind us why more modern designs tend to have much larger ejection ports.
The trigger reset was extremely long, and definitely had an effect on the speed with which I could hit an 8" circle at 25'. The speed improved somewhat with practice; it's possible that with more dedicated training it would get better still.
The mag release button was difficult for me to reach with either my index finger or my thumb; the extra time it took to get the mag out would seem to counter any perceived benefit of the squeeze cocker during a reload.
It was impossible for me to lock the slide back one-handed. This is a significant detriment for a carry gun.
The grip was much wider than I remembered ... extremely big for a single stack.
The pistol itself was in very good condition (my friend owns about a dozen P7's). Regarding durability, he's of the opinion that the gas ports get worn out by around 35,000 rounds. Whether that qualifies as "durable" or not is a matter of perspective, as we've discussed here recently.
sigmundsauer
10-23-08, 17:02
Todd,
You provide a good example that even the most skilled shooters will take time to adapt to a new manual of arms.
Personally, I find the mag release lightning fast. I did "transition" to a P7 through a paddle release P2000 first. So I had little trouble adapting. I've been using my trigger finger to dump mags ever since. And have subsequently switched all of my SIGs to right-side mag release. My hardship with the P7M8 is remembering to insert the slim single stack magazine in perpendicular to the slide, not at the angle of the grip. The internal grip dimensions are tight and can often make my magazine insertions not so smooth.
There is not much real estate on a P7's frame to place my thumb. A long, thin strip of skateboard tape graces the side of the frame, forward of the trigger guard. It is enough to provide temporary residence for my thumb, and the little 9mm's recoil is not enough to toss it. Incidentally it does tame the heat transfer somewhat preventing my thumb from getting seared.
My days of using SIGs and Glocks make accepting the "little" ejection port of the P7 a little harder. Although, it reasons that it lessens exposure to debris ingress to the mechanism. Stove pipes are rarely heard of and feedway malfunctions in general are scarce. I like the P7's feed mechanism, basically a push-feed design unlike SIG's and USP's controlled feed. In my opinion, most feed malfunctions in modern pistols are induced by poor extractor design, which the P7 is almost totally immune.
I shoot stock guns at IDPA. I have several friends who are very talented with their pet pistols, many of which have very short resets courtesy of Grayguns...and it sometimes is hard for them to transition back to stock reset lengths on the SIGs and HKs without some consternation. I figure, if I can master a stock reset, a short reset gun will be all the easier. Since my living is made and life is staked on stock guns, I believe acclimating to them is of utmost importance.
Thanks for the report.
I think the P7 is an exceptional pistol, but right now my weapon of choice is an LEM P2000 or P30.
Tim
Tim -- Interesting stuff, thanks.
I've been using a "lefty" mag release position for close to ten years now, so that wasn't a transition issue for me. The location and size of the paddle was just inconvenient for my hand size and finger length. I didn't worry much about the magazine insertion as part of the speed process because, as you say, the angle is something you need to get used to as it is with just about any gun (unless it's got a monster funnel).
The skateboard tape idea is simple and elegant, and something I'll definitely remember in the future.
Another issue that cropped up involved my work Ford Expedition seat belt release vs. my P7M8 mag release. They connected just right a few times and released the P7 mag. I quickly learned to check to make sure the mag was still seated when I got out of the vehicle. That never happened with any other auto pistol I carried.
Other vehicle seat belts didn't seem to hit the release. Maybe Ford engineered their seat belt to sabotage the P7M8.
I just picked up my new M13 from my FFL today.
In playing around with it just a little bit, I've realized the mag release is super easy for ME. I'm right handed and always thought you were to use the release on the left side. I learned awhile back it's much easier with the strong index finger, I decided to try it. WOW is all I can say. I don't even have to shift my grip more than a hair- as long as I extend my finger, removing it from in front of the trigger, I can just swipe it downward- my knuckle hits the release just right and since empty mags FLY out of the pistol, I do not foresee removing mags to be a problem, for ME anyway.
Can't wait to shoot this minty 98% 1989 gun! ;)
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