View Full Version : Gold Dot 230 grain Hollow point
I just bought 500 rounds of this ammo. I know there is better out there, but I like to run the ammo through my guns Im going to use for SD / HD. And it sucks to pay $1.00 round at the range. And all my 45 SD ammo has been in and out of multiple guns and just needs to be blasted out and start fresh again. I have different hollow points mixed in the same mag and shit and the cluster took its toll on my conscience.
My gut tells me I wouldn't want to be shot by shit ball ammo, so I think decent HP is probably sufficient but….
My question, would you be comfortable using this ammo for SD?
PB
I think the only thing debateably better would have been HST 230+Ps.
I tote a .45 despite ot not being "pistolly correct" to do so and I live that 200gr +P GDHP "flying ashtray" life.
I dont think you are at a deficit but thats just my opinion
I think the only thing debateably better would have been HST 230+Ps.
I tote a .45 despite ot not being "pistolly correct" to do so and I live that 200gr +P GDHP "flying ashtray" life.
I dont think you are at a deficit but thats just my opinion
"Flying ashtray". I dig it.
PB
It's on Doc's list, so yes, I would be confident. I would not hesitate to use it, at all.
noonesshowmonkey
05-03-17, 16:53
My go-to hollow points are Speer Gold Dots, Federal HSTs, and Winchester PDX-1 / Rangers. Whatever I can find.
There's no reason to believe that your gold dots aren't good enough. I don't think that anyone shot in the A-zone will ask you if the round was a Speer Gold Dot, and finding so, decide to continue to fight because it was the wrong brand.
"Flying ashtray". I dig it.
PB
Digging around in my reloading stash, I found a box of 100 Speer 200gr hp's, The old flying ashtray.I'd bought these years ago and forgot I had them...one thing they're useful for is testing to see if your pistol will feed hp's, if it'll feed these, it'll feed anything.
WOW!
Talk about flash back flying ash tray. I will admit that it was my round back in the day before I was forced to carry 9mm and then found out all handgun rounds work or suck depending on the alignment of the stars that day.
The 230 grain Speer GDHP is a good performing round and on "the list" that can be found on other forums.
Of note, the 200 grain +P GDHP is not on Dr. Roberts' list, and discussion around it several years ago indicated poor terminal performance due to a tendency to plug and not expand. I have the link for those discussions and can PM it to those who are interested. I also recall Dr. Roberts posting that +P rounds in 45 ACP in general offer little in additional terminal performance to offset the increased recoil and wear.
The 230 grain Speer GDHP is a good performing round and on "the list" that can be found on other forums.
Of note, the 200 grain +P GDHP is not on Dr. Roberts' list, and discussion around it several years ago indicated poor terminal performance due to a tendency to plug and not expand. I have the link for those discussions and can PM it to those who are interested. I also recall Dr. Roberts posting that +P rounds in 45 ACP in general offer little in additional terminal performance to offset the increased recoil and wear.
Ive never heard of Doc. Love to get a link.
Ive never heard of Doc. Love to get a link.
He used to be a member here but left. One of the top ballistics experts I think. He's definitely on primary and secondary, I don't know where else. Their 9 is supposed to be some of the best there is I believe. That and HST seem to be like Honda vs Toyota.
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Ive never heard of Doc. Love to get a link. This has a lot of the information you seek and has much of Dr. Robert's research.
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#HandgunAmmoDocGKR
gunnerblue
05-03-17, 18:26
As others have mentioned, they've made Dr Roberts list so I'd say you're GTG. I was pleasantly surprised by their accuracy in my HK45. 1.5" 5-shot group off of sandbags at 25 yards
He used to be a member here but left. One of the top ballistics experts I think. He's definitely on primary and secondary, I don't know where else. Their 9 is supposed to be some of the best there is I believe. That and HST seem to be like Honda vs Toyota.
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Last time I went with HST's. Thought I would give the other team a shot.
Remember the old Remington JHP +P 185.
Drifting Fate
05-03-17, 20:35
Heck, yes, I remember those very well - at the time they and the 230grn Hydra-Shok were the cocks of the walk.
To answer the OP's question - I'd carry a 230grn Gold Dot with confidence and not lose any sleep.
In addition to the speer 200 gr flying ash tray, the cci snake loads are also a wonderful measure of a weapons tolerance to feed anything. My 4506 does well with both. 1911 not so good...
buckshot1220
05-03-17, 21:56
When I carried .45 on the regular Gold Dot 230gr and Win. PDX1/Ranger Bonded were my go to's. I wouldn't think twice about using them again as they're still a tier 1 round.
Gold Dot is good stuff all around. The only caliber I stray from Gold Dot is in .380 - I run the Fed. Hydra-Shok there.
Pappabear, Doc Roberts is one of the best terminal ballistics experts. Also a gun/shooting enthusiast. He performs ballistic testing for many leo agencies.
He was a member here a few years ago. He is still active on pistol-training.com. Go there, go to the ammo forum and the stickies up top are mostly his. It's a goldmine of terminal ballistics data.
I stick with loads he recommends, then I don't really think about it past that - except for accuracy.
I carried a departmently issued P220 for about a dozen years. It was loaded with 230 GDHP for about 10 years. I noticed that the mouth of the hollowpoint was very soft and bullet was easily deformed. The 230 g bullet also set back in the case very easily. Keep an eye on the OAL if you unload your pistol often
I carried a departmently issued P220 for about a dozen years. It was loaded with 230 GDHP for about 10 years. I noticed that the mouth of the hollowpoint was very soft and bullet was easily deformed. The 230 g bullet also set back in the case very easily. Keep an eye on the OAL if you unload your pistol often
The same exact round for 10 years?
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The 230 grain Speer GDHP is a good performing round and on "the list" that can be found on other forums.
Of note, the 200 grain +P GDHP is not on Dr. Roberts' list, and discussion around it several years ago indicated poor terminal performance due to a tendency to plug and not expand. I have the link for those discussions and can PM it to those who are interested. I also recall Dr. Roberts posting that +P rounds in 45 ACP in general offer little in additional terminal performance to offset the increased recoil and wear.
True. Do I advocate 200 GDHP+P for duty? No. This is my personal stash. Half storebrought, half loaded.
For duty, I advocate 230+P HST. Over the years I have toted legit Black Talons (still have some!), Winchester Ranger 230+Ps, and HSTs. I have seen people shot with all 3 to varying results (DRT, paralysis, or hurtimg but potentially combative if demoralized---Not in any order. Black Talons were fair for its era but the Winchester Rangers were more effective by a mile)
On my own time I keep 200s for velocity. And more trying to keep a flat trajectory. Any 45 man will tell you that they do drop at a certain point beyond the usual 25yds. Like if you are doing a 1500 match(score, not yards) And at 50 it starts being noticeable. If you do PPC with a 45.
That and hog hunting. I liked the results. I was going more for flatness and cavitation than expansion. Again, this is me knowing the limitation of that load. Same with 185 SWC. But I save that more for my 1911 (Because my PPC Glock trigger sucks). I feel I need a Gold Cup at some point.
So Dont anyone think because *I* carry 200s on my own time that I would recommend it to anyone else. HSTs are pretty much where it is at.
Both in .45 and .357 Sig(Yep, I'm one of those people too), Federal really did it right in HST. 9mm too. That and that PDX Winchester but that's 9mm.
JMHO
Straight Shooter
05-04-17, 07:02
As I have noted in the Terminal Ballistic Information section...and just as an FYI only- I have chronoed several rounds from different lots of Winchester Ranger +P 230 HST. Has an advertised velocity of 950fps. Negative. Coming out of my Glock 41 5.31" 45ACP the average velocity was 883fps..with a HI of 909fps..significantly under advertised velocity.
I say this as a .45ACP +P fan- and carry it off/on myself. I love Gold Dots in ANY caliber. They have more than established themselves over the years.
And I also posed a question a few days ago in the TBI section- If using a +P 45ACP load, and the bullet fails to expand, you've still got a huge, 230gr round at +P velocity hitting the target...should still be an effective shot, right?
Another FYI & Ill hush. the fastest 230gr Ive ever chronoed was Magtech 230gr JHP +P..advertised at a screaming 1007fps.
Negative- tho it did average a true 950fps, and was very noticeably hotter in recoil.
The same exact round for 10 years?
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I replaced my carry ammo every few months.
One more question for those that have studied such for quite some time. P or PLUS P gentleman?
I bought a fat lot of Fed HST 124 +p that is on Doc's list. When i saw his logo I remembered the guy from years past. I didn't really want more kick from 230gr amigos, but in 9mm it doesn't bother me.
If you have an opinion or experience to push one way or another. Lets keep the knowledge base rolling.
Many thanks
PB
Straight Shooter
05-04-17, 17:45
My opinion...not "needed" in 45ACP...but AWESOME nonetheless.
In 9mm..I absolutely use +P Gold dots and even +P+ Winchester Rangers too. Helps the 9mm more than the .45. again..MY opinion.
My opinion...not "needed" in 45ACP...but AWESOME nonetheless.
In 9mm..I absolutely use +P Gold dots and even +P+ Winchester Rangers too. Helps the 9mm more than the .45. again..MY opinion.
I'm going to respectfully disagree. The standard pressure 147 grain HST performs identical to its 124 +P cousin in terms of penetration and expansion.
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/9mm_HST_GS.htm
The 147 grain GDHP is also a great performer. Moreover, all of the 147 grain loads are noticibly softer shooting than their +P cousins. Then, there is the benefit of 147 grain loads being subsonic for those of us who shoot suppressed. This performance data holds for 45 ACP loads - identical terminal performance and softer shooting for the standard pressure loads compared to +P.
Straight Shooter
05-04-17, 18:42
I'm going to respectfully disagree. The standard pressure 147 grain HST performs identical to its 124 +P cousin in terms of penetration and expansion.
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/9mm_HST_GS.htm
The 147 grain GDHP is also a great performer. Moreover, all of the 147 grain loads are noticibly softer shooting than their +P cousins. Then, there is the benefit of 147 grain loads being subsonic for those of us who shoot suppressed. This performance data holds for 45 ACP loads - identical terminal performance and softer shooting for the standard pressure loads compared to +P.
I appreciate the response. I have no knowledge of the HST...I am up on the Gold Dot performance, however. As I don't shoot surpressed, the sub sonic aspect is of no importance to me personally. As for added felt recoil in +P 9mm....I just do not feel it...except in the +P+ Winchester load,then only slighty more. Every test or comparison Ive seen with Gold dots has the +P 124gr. load being the one of, if not THE best loads on the market. Just tested accuracy in my G19 & G17 a couple weeks ago also- at 20,15 & 10 yards 10 shots could be covered by half of one finger, with slow fire.
As to the +P 45. I agree...this may be a case of more is NOT better...I am still doing research on this. Can you provide some links to the info you gave? It would be of great help. THANK YOU for being respectful also!!!
Here is some data on the 230 +P HST (bottom of first post):
https://pistol-forum.com/archive/index.php/t-7205.html
These values for expansion and penetration are very similar to other high performering, standard pressure loads. Also, notice Dr. Roberts' last sentences, "The Fed HST line is among the best duty loads currently available for service caliber pistols. HST’s tend to work best using heavier bullets (147 gr, 180 gr, 230 gr) at moderate velocities, with standard pressures."
MountainRaven
05-04-17, 20:49
230-grain GDHPs are what I pick when I can't get 230-grain HSTs.
I stick with standard pressure because I'm rarely without a 1911.
9mm, I generally stick to 147-grain standard pressure HSTs or GDHPs. Only time I really look to +P is for Hornady Critical Defense 135-grainers.
Frankly, if the non-+P is on DocGKR's list, I don't see a reason to get the +P version, even if it, too, is on the list.
I carried a departmently issued P220 for about a dozen years. It was loaded with 230 GDHP for about 10 years. I noticed that the mouth of the hollowpoint was very soft and bullet was easily deformed. The 230 g bullet also set back in the case very easily. Keep an eye on the OAL if you unload your pistol often
I've found this to be endemic in all .45acp JHP that I have used for any length of time. Repeated chambering will batter the front of the round and cause set back. A 1911 isn't exactly gentle. Have witnessed it with PMC Starfire(Before I learned better), Winchester Ranger T, Magtech Bonded JHP, and the Golddot that is currently in the gun. All loadings were 230gr. Did for a very short carrying Hornady FPD 230gr+P I think I shot one box of 20 to see how it functioned and the increased recoil wasn't worry it due to slowing down shot to shot recovery and the basic testing we did didn't find any advantage and after that ended up ordering some of the Winchester and was happy. I do like my Ranger-Ts they just hard to find, I do have a case of the 9mm 147gr stuff stashed for a rainy day though.
On round deformation and set back, 9mm will do it as well with certain rounds seeming much for prone to it than others. 124GR PMC Star fire for example, again before I knew better, did it in short order in my Glock 17, Speer Golddot 147gr never seemed to really deform in my Glocks though they would set back if chambered enough times. I personally try to keep rechambering to a minimal and cycle my carry ammo on a regular basis.
I personally try to keep rechambering to a minimal and cycle my carry ammo on a regular basis.
I try to make a habit of not rechambering the same round more than twice. The third time I chamber a pistol round, it's usually at the range to fire it. In my case, I very rarely remove the chambered round from my carry gun since nothing really requires me to. I waste a few rounds yearly, but I cycle my carry rounds out on a regular basis.
I try to make a habit of not rechambering the same round more than twice. The third time I chamber a pistol round, it's usually at the range to fire it. In my case, I very rarely remove the chambered round from my carry gun since nothing really requires me to. I waste a few rounds yearly, but I cycle my carry rounds out on a regular basis.
It try, doesn't always get to work out that way though since I do like to drag my carry gun to the range for practice. That said, I do try to cycle ammo regularly. There is a nice little bin on the door of a little gun safe that I have that has rounds sitting in it that have been chambered more times than I like. Personally, ideally, I'd only chamber a round once and then drop it in a bin for the range, but like I said, things get in the way. It is on my list of things to improve though. And hell, at least I not as bad as guys who have Black Talons from the 90's still loaded in their carry guns.
I'm going to respectfully disagree. The standard pressure 147 grain HST performs identical to its 124 +P cousin in terms of penetration and expansion.
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/9mm_HST_GS.htm
The 147 grain GDHP is also a great performer. Moreover, all of the 147 grain loads are noticibly softer shooting than their +P cousins. Then, there is the benefit of 147 grain loads being subsonic for those of us who shoot suppressed. This performance data holds for 45 ACP loads - identical terminal performance and softer shooting for the standard pressure loads compared to +P.
This thread has been EYE opening for old Pappabear. Thanks for everyones input. Sensei, I've always stayed away from the 147gr thinking it might be too slow to perform. Very eye opening data. My next batch will be 147's because I do drift into suppressor land. Ill be interested in testing the 147's subsonic suppressed out of my Sig MPX. The gun has not liked heavier bullets in the past, but in the past I ran shit heavy ammo and the gun was not broken in.
And as far as re chambering my ammo, my old stuff probably has about 9 million re chamberings. Good thing I started this little project of resupply.
PB
This thread has been EYE opening for old Pappabear. Thanks for everyones input. Sensei, I've always stayed away from the 147gr thinking it might be too slow to perform. Very eye opening data. My next batch will be 147's because I do drift into suppressor land. Ill be interested in testing the 147's subsonic suppressed out of my Sig MPX. The gun has not liked heavier bullets in the past, but in the past I ran shit heavy ammo and the gun was not broken in.
And as far as re chambering my ammo, my old stuff probably has about 9 million re chamberings. Good thing I started this little project of resupply.
PB
Yep, up until 10-15 years ago you would be absolutely correct. The past 10 years have seen huge advances in terminal performance in heavier weight bullets - especially in the 9mm 147 grain weight category. Most of the 147 grain duty loads from Speer, Federal, and Winchester perform on par with their lighter offerings.
packinaglock
05-05-17, 15:12
Absolutely
El Pistolero
05-05-17, 15:13
I too did all the research possible on modern JHP ammo, including probably everything Dr. Roberts has written. My choice of carry ammo in 9mm is Federal HST 147-grain, standard pressure. I also have a lot of Hornady Critical Duty 135-grain +P because I got a good deal on it but it's not my primary ammo. I don't daily carry a .45 ACP anymore but when I did I loaded it with HST 230-grain, standard pressure. I do however carry a Glock 21 when I'm out hiking and for that I have Gold Dot 230-grain +Ps because it's what I happened to find a good deal on when I got the G21 but I feel just as confident with the Gold Dots as I do with HST. Both are proven.
I see on docs list the Fed Tac 135grain bonded bullets. What do you guys think about those bonded bullets and any backstory, Im all ears.
PB
Should mention that Doc does recommend +P over standard pressure 9mm loadings in one instance, which is in 124gr offerings (124gr +P Gold Dot, Ranger T, etc). Though Doc has stated that performance of their equivalent weight standard pressure loads isn't far behind, if I recall.
Gunnar da Wolf
05-11-17, 21:16
FWIW I was at a gel shoot hosted by a major manufacturer (FBI type steel/glass/blue jeans stuff) when the factory rep as an aside to me stated that we wouldn't see any real difference between Speer, Federal HST, or Winchester T ammo. And we didn't.
In the 9mm I've always favored 124gr +P ammo so my carry guns are loaded with either Speer's Gold Dot or Winchester's bonded PDX load. I remember the "subsonic" craze and I'm too set in my ways to try the new 147gr loads.
hotrodder636
05-11-17, 22:22
I have read and learned a lot more than I thought I would regarding current pistol cartridge ballistics.
Normally I use Hornady Critical duty in my 9mm but think I will be making a switch to carrying HST 147 grain (I do have a couple hundred of these already).
As for .45, I have been using Hornady CD 220 gr and Winchester PDX1 230 gr. Think I will try some gold dot and HSTs for accuracy and compare to the CD and make my decision there.
Not to hijack, but anyone have experience with the Asym pistol loads?
Not to hijack, but anyone have experience with the Asym pistol loads?
I have not, but it's tuff for new or small companies to compete. To manufacture high end ammo it cost $$$, and it therefore cost the same or more often times than Gold dots or HST ....so there is no real motivation to take the risk in buying it.
Might be great but their prices appear in line with other proven HM Defense stuff.
But if you got a smoking deal, maybe
It try, doesn't always get to work out that way though since I do like to drag my carry gun to the range for practice. That said, I do try to cycle ammo regularly. There is a nice little bin on the door of a little gun safe that I have that has rounds sitting in it that have been chambered more times than I like. Personally, ideally, I'd only chamber a round once and then drop it in a bin for the range, but like I said, things get in the way. It is on my list of things to improve though. And hell, at least I not as bad as guys who have Black Talons from the 90's still loaded in their carry guns.
I'm in the same boat. I shoot my carry guns, so I have to unload the JHPs periodically. If I'm concerned about them being chambered too often, I'll line them up on a desk, with a fresh, known good round on each end and hold the edge of a metal ruler across them. Any that are set back get discarded. I've only had to get rid of 3 or 4 in the last few years.
Vegasshooter
05-24-17, 13:33
I'm in the same boat. I shoot my carry guns, so I have to unload the JHPs periodically. If I'm concerned about them being chambered too often, I'll line them up on a desk, with a fresh, known good round on each end and hold the edge of a metal ruler across them. Any that are set back get discarded. I've only had to get rid of 3 or 4 in the last few years.
The problem isn't always with bullet set back. The other issue that comes up is primer wear. The inside of a primer has the "primer compound" in it. Constant chambering and unchambering can cause this compound to be disturbed. Then, when you expect to hear a loud bang, you hear a click. I have never had it happen to me in 30+ years of shooting, but people whom I trust have mentioned it, so I figure why risk it? On the .001% chance that we would ever need to use our pistols for self defense, I want to eliminate as many variables as possible.
Again, set back can be an issue, but primer de activation is another one. Once or twice, and it's into the "range ammo" bucket for me.
The problem isn't always with bullet set back. The other issue that comes up is primer wear. The inside of a primer has the "primer compound" in it. Constant chambering and unchambering can cause this compound to be disturbed. Then, when you expect to hear a loud bang, you hear a click. I have never had it happen to me in 30+ years of shooting, but people whom I trust have mentioned it, so I figure why risk it? On the .001% chance that we would ever need to use our pistols for self defense, I want to eliminate as many variables as possible.
Again, set back can be an issue, but primer de activation is another one. Once or twice, and it's into the "range ammo" bucket for me.
Can someone validate this? I was under the assumption this applied to ars and floating firing pins only.
Can someone validate this? I was under the assumption this applied to ars and floating firing pins only.
No repeated impacts can cause primer failure in pistols as well. My understanding is it can cause the anvil inside the primer to be displaced, preventing firing. The Gwinnett County GA Sheriff's Office had this occur during an officer involved shooting about 5 years ago.
From the Gwinnett County Sheriff’s Department:
Gwinnett County Sheriff’s Department
Training Bulletin
January 1, 2012
In September of 2011, a GCPD officer was involved in a situation which quickly became a use of deadly force incident. When the officer made the decision to use deadly force, the chambered round in his duty pistol did not fire. Fortunately, the officer used good tactics, remembered his training and cleared the malfunction, successfully ending the encounter.
The misfired round, which had a full firing pin strike, was collected and was later sent to the manufacturer for analysis. Their analysis showed the following:
“…..the cause of the misfire was determined to be from the primer mix being knocked out of the primer when the round was cycled through the firearm multiple times.”
GCPD also sent an additional 2000 rounds of the Winchester 9mm duty ammunition to the manufacturer. All 2000 rounds were successfully fired.
In discussions with the officer, we discovered that since he has small children at home, he unloads his duty weapon daily. His routine is to eject the chambered round to store the weapon. Prior to returning to duty he chambers the top round in his primary magazine, then takes the previously ejected round and puts it back in the magazine. Those two rounds were repeatedly cycled and had been since duty ammunition was issued in February or March of 2011, resulting in as many as 100 chambering and extracting cycles. This caused an internal failure of the primer, not discernable by external inspection.
This advisory is to inform all sworn personnel that repeated cycling of duty rounds is to be avoided. As a reminder, when loading the weapon, load from the magazine and do not drop the round directly into the chamber. If an officer’s only method of safe home storage is to unload the weapon, the Firearms Training Unit suggests that you unload an entire magazine and rotate those rounds. In addition, you should also rotate through all three duty magazines, so that all 46 duty rounds are cycles, not just a few rounds. A more practical method of home storage is probably to use a trigger lock or a locked storage box.
Pappabear, Doc Roberts is one of the best terminal ballistics experts. Also a gun/shooting enthusiast. He performs ballistic testing for many leo agencies.
He was a member here a few years ago. He is still active on pistol-training.com. Go there, go to the ammo forum and the stickies up top are mostly his. It's a goldmine of terminal ballistics data.
I stick with loads he recommends, then I don't really think about it past that - except for accuracy.
That's pistol-forum.com.
Not to hijack, but anyone have experience with the Asym pistol loads?
I do. Very accurate and dependable ammunition in my experience.
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