View Full Version : Intresting CHL Situation in Armington Texas.
Averageman
05-04-17, 09:28
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/arlington/2017/05/03/two-people-killed-third-wounded-arlington-restaurant-shooting-reports-say
Jones walked into Zona Caliente, in the 6500 block of South Cooper Street, about 6:15 p.m. and fatally shot Perez, the bar's manager, Cook said. A customer who had a handgun then fatally shot the gunman, Cook said.
He said the customer, who was dining with his wife, "prevented further loss of life."
Cook later confirmed that the customer was carrying a handgun under the Texas concealed handgun license program.
I'm not sure how this is going to work out for the shooter, he likely wasn't within the law when he was carrying in the Club.
http://www.wfaa.com/news/two-shot-killed-in-restaurant-shooting-in-arlington/436569576
Arlington police are still trying to process a horrific shooting scene that unfolded at a popular restaurant and bar.
Police flooded the Zona Caliente Sports Bar at about 6:15 after receiving calls of an active shooter. Lt. Christopher Cook said two people were killed, including the alleged shooter.
"We believe the shooter is one of those deceased who was killed by a customer in the location after the suspect shot and killed someone inside the restaurant," Cook said.
James Jones, 48, and Cesar Perez, 37, were pronounced dead. Perez was a manager at the restaurant, and Jones has been identified as the first shooter.
The customer who shot Jones had a concealed weapon on him at the time of the incident and a concealed handgun license. He hasn't been identified, and police say no charges will be filed against him.
Cook said it all began when Jones walked into the bar and approached Perez, a manager, who was standing at one end of the bar. The pair began arguing.
“There was some type of altercation, things being said, and this man pulled out a gun and shot the employee and killed the employee," Cook said.
After Perez was killed, Cook said the customer from the other end of the bar brought out his own handgun, then shot and killed Jones.
“He made the decision to engage the shooter, fearing there would be other loss of life,” said Cook.
Well that answered my question, interesting none the less.
Interesting. It certainly appears that the customer was in violation of Texas' CHL laws in that he was carrying in an establishment that exceeded 51% revenue from alcohol sales. Nice to see that some common sense prevailed on the part of the prosecutor.
Even if the CHL holder was acting outside CHL statutes, good luck finding a jury that would convict him. Austin - maybe.
Restaurants that serve alcohol aren't off limits in TX unless they make over 50% of their revenue via the sale of alcohol for onsite consumption. Bars by definition only sell alcohol so they meet the >50% criteria so they are verboten. This place sounds more like a restaurant than bar.
Sux for the manager and his family. Glad the PODS was put down at no tax payer expense.
Yeh, Texas is kind of restrictive regarding its carry laws, which kind of goes against the common perception of Texas ethos. I live in a very blue state (Minnesota) that is, oddly, substantially less restrictive. Open or concealed carry in bars isn't illegal.
Yeh, Texas is kind of restrictive regarding its carry laws, which kind of goes against the common perception of Texas ethos. I live in a very blue state (Minnesota) that is, oddly, substantially less restrictive. Open or concealed carry in bars isn't illegal.
Guns are in the culture in Minnesota and Wisconsin, such rich hunting and outdoor sports states. Weird how the politics don't jive with 2A like other places.
Averageman
05-04-17, 10:42
Yeh, Texas is kind of restrictive regarding its carry laws, which kind of goes against the common perception of Texas ethos. I live in a very blue state (Minnesota) that is, oddly, substantially less restrictive. Open or concealed carry in bars isn't illegal.
I had someone explain to me that gun laws became very restrictive in a very short period of time in Texas, some of it had to do with wanting to end violence. I also have little doubt that the Civil War might have been a factor. Oddly enough our "Blue Laws" restricting when alcohol can be sold and where it can be purchased were sometimes passed at about the same time and again as I was told, for the same reasons.
I live in a small town that is also the County seat, the Chilsom trail runs right through our area. There was no small amount of alcohol fueled violence in our little town and inside the city limits they still don't sell any alcohol harder than wine or beer and not on Sunday until Noon.
It was explained to me that a very popular local Deputy was gunned down by a drunken Cowboy on Main Street and it took nearly 75 years for them to even consider selling beer inside the city limits after that.
Sometimes things change slowly after something like that.
TexasAggie2005
05-04-17, 10:47
Interesting. It certainly appears that the customer was in violation of Texas' CHL laws in that he was carrying in an establishment that exceeded 51% revenue from alcohol sales. Nice to see that some common sense prevailed on the part of the prosecutor.
I disagree. He was not in violation of CHL laws. According to a TABC public inquiry I just ran, they are only required to have the "blue" sign. This indicates that less than 51% of their sales comes from liquor sales.
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1_click_off
05-04-17, 10:55
Louisiana has AG and AR licenses. Bars are under the general license and restaurants are under the AR license. So if it was a sports bar with an AR license in LA he would be good. Guess the amount of sales dictate which license you are required to get.
But anyhow, that is one state over and doesn't apply in this case.
BuzzinSATX
05-04-17, 12:46
I disagree. He was not in violation of CHL laws. According to a TABC public inquiry I just ran, they are only required to have the "blue" sign. This indicates that less than 51% of their sales comes from liquor sales.
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They must be mainly a Resteraunt like a Chili's or the like. Most sports bars I've gone to around my piece of The Republic all hang that stupid 51% sign.
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BuzzinSATX
05-04-17, 12:50
. Guess the amount of sales dictate which license you are required to get.
Pretty much. TX rule is if 51% of revenue is from alcohol, no concealed carry, regardless if you drink or not.
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I disagree. He was not in violation of CHL laws. According to a TABC public inquiry I just ran, they are only required to have the "blue" sign. This indicates that less than 51% of their sales comes from liquor sales.
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Yeah, whatever, I guess. Here, you can't carry a gun if you're drunk. That's about the extent of those kinds of carry restrictions. Likewise, churches and hospitals aren't part of the "no carry" process. Just seems a lot simpler. I've always found that interesting in a state that's gone Democrat every presidential election since 1932 (with the exception of the year Minnesota went for Richard Nixon).
Good for him. IF they tried to prosecute him a gofundme would pay for his attorney.
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Averageman
05-04-17, 14:11
Take a look at that club a little closer.
When your waitress is wearing a garter belt, thigh highs, panties and a crop top....
Well it's pretty likely to have a 51% sign.
Everyone tells me Texas is gun country yet this wouldnt be an issue in GA
not 51%. Here is how to check a place:
Enter name "Zona Caliente Sports Bar" into Trade Name of this page:
http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/PublicInquiry/Status.aspx
Take a look at that club a little closer.
When your waitress is wearing a garter belt, thigh highs, panties and a crop top....
Well it's pretty likely to have a 51% sign.
Has nothing to do with what the staff wear, but whether or not you ACTUALLY do make more revenue from alcohol sales than anything else. At least in TX anyway. The responsibility is on the bar to convey that info, not on the license holder to run forensic accounting before entering. Even if the bar in quest made 100% of their revenue from alcohol and doesn't post the 51% sign; AFAIK the license holder is ok.
With all that, I'd like to see the law changed to restrict people based on their actions rather than their location. Aka go to the bar all you want, just stay off the booze. But sadly we blew our legislative wad on 2 weak CC bills instead of making the existing statutes better.
BuzzinSATX
05-04-17, 15:35
Everyone tells me Texas is gun country yet this wouldnt be an issue in GA
Unfortunately, Texas is not as gun friendly as many of us would like, but it gets a bit better every session of the legislature. No Constitutional Carry yet, and the new OC law is a joke since you still need a license to carry open or concealed.
I keep calling my reps and tell they are NOT aggressive enough and that they should be ashamed that VT whips out butt in 2A rights. I am hoping it helps.
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I had someone explain to me that gun laws became very restrictive in a very short period of time in Texas, some of it had to do with wanting to end violence. I also have little doubt that the Civil War might have been a factor.
Texas has one bad gun law, and it is restriction on carrying a handgun, passed during reconstruction. Almost everything else, including machine guns, is Constitutional Carry. And hand gun law gets whittled down every other year as legislature meets.
Averageman
05-04-17, 15:46
not 51%. Here is how to check a place:
Enter name "Zona Caliente Sports Bar" into Trade Name of this page:
http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/PublicInquiry/Status.aspx
Gun Sign; BLUE.
So okay, whats the definition of Blue in this case?
Curious not picking nits.
Gun Sign; BLUE.
So okay, whats the definition of Blue in this case?
Curious not picking nits.
GTG unless you are a prohibited person? At least that is the way I read it.
The ratings just barelt hit 3 on Yelp.
This was my favorite review:
Shots are great! Atmosphere was sort of loud. Was surprised with the ok Corral shooting reenactment although would have liked a bit of a warning . Some firefighters arrived and service went to shit.
I didn't know if the 'shots are great' was ironic. But LMAO Some firefighters arrived and service went to shit
TexasAggie2005
05-04-17, 19:05
Take a look at that club a little closer.
When your waitress is wearing a garter belt, thigh highs, panties and a crop top....
Well it's pretty likely to have a 51% sign.
You'd be wrong if you assumed that. See my post above, I pulled their publicly available TABC license info and posted a screenshot.
I also posted a picture of the "blue" sign.
Everyone tells me Texas is gun country yet this wouldnt be an issue in GA
Same in PA. No such thing as 51%, 3006 signs or anything else.
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Gun Sign; BLUE.
So okay, whats the definition of Blue in this case?
Curious not picking nits.
Blues = the sign that TXAggies posted above. AKA youre good to go if you have a CHL. The other option is Red = a sign with a red 51% printed over language explaining that CHL is a nog go. Up to the proprietor to have the correct sign up not the CHL holder to review the books. Agree that its not the best way to handle things, but it is what it is till the next legislative session where we can hopefully get more stuff fixed.
yea in Texas if signs aren't 100% to the letter of the law they arent legal.
Lots of places "post" no guns, no weapons, etc..., but unless its a legit Texas 30.06 sign(which I think the state sends out free of charge), its not a legit sign.
I also was under the impression that a restaurant can designate a 51% area, but there has to be a map directly under the 51% sign or it has to be obvious that its a separate area. I live in a mostly dry county, but some restaurants can serve. The local mexican restaurant has a little bar and its in a separate room from the dining room and I believe its got a posted 51% sign, but the rest of the restaurant does not. The local sports bar has half ways that cut off the bar from the restaurant basically completely except one way in and out.
Moose-Knuckle
05-05-17, 05:34
The thread title needs to be edited to read Arlington.
CHL program was old name, now it is LTC.
Signage if everything here. Most establishments don't have any, those that do are the "Blue" signs posted on page one. I walk past signs all the time and carry, those places have conflicting signage and I always make sure I'm on security footage walking in the door with that signage. I don't frequent bars/pubs/night clubs for various reasons, this being one.
TX has a long history of banning handguns in bars dating back to the saloon days of the Wild West.
Minnesota allows carry in any bar or restaurant, but it is illegal to carry a gun if your blood alcohol is greater than .04. "No Guns Allowed" signs are allowed on any store, but they don't have the force of law and can be legally ignored. There is no distinction between open of concealed carry. Those "no gun" signs are basically just polite notification by the store that if they catch you carrying a gun, they might ask you to leave the premises. Of course, a business can ask anyone to leave the premises for any reason.
Lot's of other good things about Minnesota's Personal Protection Act (2003-2005). They did have an unreasonable stance on suppressor until two years ago (DNR convinced the governor that ninja deer poachers would run rampant), and although a Castle Doctrine law was passed, the governor vetoed it after Twin Cities police chiefs convinced him there would be blood in the streets. It will be voted on again this session. State law provides for home protection etc, but it leaves duty to retreat up to up to local prosecutors and legal precedent.
platoonDaddy
05-05-17, 11:04
Cook verified the civilian was properly licensed to carry the handgun and the restaurant is one that it is legal for a License to Carry holder to enter (a “blue sign” establishment). He said the shooting will be referred to the Tarrant County grand jury, per normal procedure, but he expects the intervenor will not face any charges.
The APD spokesman explained that when the medical examiner arrived, officers discovered the second, fully-loaded handgun and two knives. “He had two handguns and two knives and could have done significant harm and caused significant loss of life if he had not been stopped.”
“One of the firearms had no serial number,” Cook stated. “That concerns us. It appears he came to the restaurant with the intent to do harm.”
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/05/04/concealed-carry-holder-stopped-bad-guy-gun-say-texas-police/
Averageman
05-05-17, 11:23
Cook verified the civilian was properly licensed to carry the handgun and the restaurant is one that it is legal for a License to Carry holder to enter (a “blue sign” establishment). He said the shooting will be referred to the Tarrant County grand jury, per normal procedure, but he expects the intervenor will not face any charges.
The APD spokesman explained that when the medical examiner arrived, officers discovered the second, fully-loaded handgun and two knives. “He had two handguns and two knives and could have done significant harm and caused significant loss of life if he had not been stopped.”
“One of the firearms had no serial number,” Cook stated. “That concerns us. It appears he came to the restaurant with the intent to do harm.”
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/05/04/concealed-carry-holder-stopped-bad-guy-gun-say-texas-police/
Yeah, I would agree. He didn't go there for the "view" and the burgers. Wondering what the back story on that might be.
I'm not familiar with the terminology "Blue Sign" threw me off for sure.
I'm glad it was what appears to be a good shooting and that the potential loss of life was as limited as possible.
Another one in favor of Concealed Carry.
in Texas they have to prove that an establishment made 51% of there revenue from the sale of alcohol alone. This happened not too long ago where a CHL holder was arrested outside of a bar in Deep Ellum , but his lawyer along with the court asked to bar to tally up the nights total and in the end, only 46% of that particular nights revenue came from alcohol.
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