View Full Version : Shooting ranges and their ammo restrictions
I know we're all used to ranges that restrict the use of steel core and/or steel cased ammo because they don't want their steel targets damaged, but a range near me takes ammo restrictions to a whole new level.
From their website:
EFFECTIVE AS OF AUGUST 1, 2016, ONLY AMMO FROM THESE MANUFACTURERS WILL BE ALLOWED (SUBJECT TO THE RESTRICTIONS POLICY STATED BELOW):
REMINGTON;
WINCHESTER;
FEDERAL;
LAWMAN;
HORNADY;
BLACK HILLS.
NO steel case, steel core, armor piercing (M855, green tip, SS109, Win Q3131, Win 3131A, tungsten penetrator, black tip, etc.), XM-193, tracer, incendiary, aluminum case, or communist block ammo is allowed…PERIOD.
No ‘remanufactured’ ammo is allowed from ANY manufacturer.
For long range classes, match ammunition manufactured by one of the above listed manufacturers is required; for example, Federal Gold Medal Match or Black Hills Match.
Is it just me or is this requirement a bit overkill? Do they seriously think that companies like Fiocchi, M.E.N., Sig Sauer, or Prvi are not capable of producing quality ammo? Do you guys know of any ranges that have similar or stricter ammo rules?
I know we're all used to ranges that restrict the use of steel core and/or steel cased ammo because they don't want their steel targets damaged, but a range near me takes ammo restrictions to a whole new level.
From their website:
EFFECTIVE AS OF AUGUST 1, 2016, ONLY AMMO FROM THESE MANUFACTURERS WILL BE ALLOWED (SUBJECT TO THE RESTRICTIONS POLICY STATED BELOW):
REMINGTON;
WINCHESTER;
FEDERAL;
LAWMAN;
HORNADY;
BLACK HILLS.
NO steel case, steel core, armor piercing (M855, green tip, SS109, Win Q3131, Win 3131A, tungsten penetrator, black tip, etc.), XM-193, tracer, incendiary, aluminum case, or communist block ammo is allowed…PERIOD.
No ‘remanufactured’ ammo is allowed from ANY manufacturer.
For long range classes, match ammunition manufactured by one of the above listed manufacturers is required; for example, Federal Gold Medal Match or Black Hills Match.
Is it just me or is this requirement a bit overkill? Do they seriously think that companies like Fiocchi, M.E.N., Sig Sauer, or Prvi are not capable of producing quality ammo? Do you guys know of any ranges that have similar or stricter ammo rules?
Are they requiring you to leave the brass also? Sounds like they might be selling to a reloader if so.
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Are they requiring you to leave the brass also? Sounds like they might be selling to a reloaded if so.
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This was my first thoughts as well. Even if not requiring you to leave it, the "Once it hits the ground it is ours so don't touch." bullshit like some, they could be looking to retain brass for then subsequent sale.
Dump your ammo in a can and load from there. They'll never know the difference.
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Makes me wonder which brands of ammo they sell at the range...
Are they requiring you to leave the brass also? Sounds like they might be selling to a reloaded if so.
I haven't been to it yet so I don't know. I was searching for a new range to go to and came across their website. Pat McNamara, Larry Vickers, Chris Costa, and a couple other well known instructors have hosted classes at this facility so I thought it would be a good place to go.
They also require shooters to go through a $100 "safety vetting" class for each type of shooting that you may want to do.
Want to shoot past 300 yards?: $100 safety vetting.
Want to draw your sidearm from the holster?: $100 safety vetting.
Want to shoot your carbine at steel targets from barricades or while moving?: $100 dollar safety vetting. Now I'm definitely not against safety, but this is slightly ridiculous in my opinion. I could see paying $150 or $175 if they rolled all of the classes into one.
Hell I know one range that requires you to buy THEIR ammo and the only ammo is their shitty reloads.
I wouldn't mind if they offered factory ammo, but I'm there with a couple MP5s and they want me to run their effin reloads?!? No thanks, have a good day. They did offer to rent me one of their post sample MP5s which had so much bubba weld on it I have to wonder what was actually done to it to make it necessary.
Besides the fact that they couldn't comprehend why I didn't want to trust their ammo in one of my non post sample MP5s, they couldn't understand what the difference was between me shooting my MP5 and one that I had never shot before that wasn't sighted or set up by me.
Some truly clueless people run firearm ranges.
I haven't been to it yet so I don't know. I was searching for a new range to go to and came across their website. Pat McNamara, Larry Vickers, Chris Costa, and a couple other well known instructors have hosted classes at this facility so I thought it would be a good place to go.
They also require shooters to go through a $100 "safety vetting" class for each type of shooting that you may want to do.
Want to shoot past 300 yards?: $100 safety vetting.
Want to draw your sidearm from the holster?: $100 safety vetting.
Want to shoot your carbine at steel targets from barricades or while moving?: $100 dollar safety vetting. Now I'm definitely not against safety, but this is slightly ridiculous in my opinion. I could see paying $150 or $175 if they rolled all of the classes into one.
Yeah, I'd keep looking. I could see $25-35 to make sure you know basic gun safety, but how does shooting past 300 yards become more dangerous than shooting at 100 or 175 yards?
I've been in probably half a dozen carbine clubs, you always have to take one class to prove competency (usually about $35) and when you do drills or shoots a RO runs with you and the cost of that is figured into the membership fee. So that solves moving and shooting as well as transitioning to a holstered side arm.
I haven't been to it yet so I don't know. I was searching for a new range to go to and came across their website. Pat McNamara, Larry Vickers, Chris Costa, and a couple other well known instructors have hosted classes at this facility so I thought it would be a good place to go.
They also require shooters to go through a $100 "safety vetting" class for each type of shooting that you may want to do.
Want to shoot past 300 yards?: $100 safety vetting.
Want to draw your sidearm from the holster?: $100 safety vetting.
Want to shoot your carbine at steel targets from barricades or while moving?: $100 dollar safety vetting. Now I'm definitely not against safety, but this is slightly ridiculous in my opinion. I could see paying $150 or $175 if they rolled all of the classes into one.
What the **** is safety vetting? Seriously. it sounds like something the gov would come up with to try to get an extra tax out of you, or ban possession of muzzle devices or some shit. Or a codified bribe. Probably the later really.
While I don't know the range, and even with some honest to god big names shooting there, I'd personally write them off as assholes looking to get as much money out of a shooter as possible and go looking elsewhere. The other possibility is that they are doing all this as a CYA for themselves, in which case have everyone sign notarized waivers because it still comes off as a money grab and makes them look like flaming assholes.
How are they going to know if it is Reman or not.
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What the **** is safety vetting? Seriously. it sounds like something the gov would come up with to try to get an extra tax out of you, or ban possession of muzzle devices or some shit. Or a codified bribe. Probably the later really.
While I don't know the range, and even with some honest to god big names shooting there, I'd personally write them off as assholes looking to get as much money out of a shooter as possible and go looking elsewhere. The other possibility is that they are doing all this as a CYA for themselves, in which case have everyone sign notarized waivers because it still comes off as a money grab and makes them look like flaming assholes.
I honestly think it's a bunch of rich assholes who are trying to keep the riff raff out by pricing everything out of sight. The vast majority of the ranges in my area charge $15 or $20 for an entire day of shooting. This place charges by the hour, with a two hour minimum.
I honestly think it's a bunch of rich assholes who are trying to keep the riff raff out by pricing everything out of sight. The vast majority of the ranges in my area charge $15 or $20 for an entire day of shooting. This place charges by the hour, with a two hour minimum.
That crossed my mind too, just trying to be civil and not break out the flamethrowers and tomahawks. But even then, to me it would make more sense as advertising yourself as the elite club and slapping a 2 or 3K membership fee, waiting list, ect.
At any rate, assholes I think sums it all up pretty handily.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-13-17, 00:47
Local indoor range almost didn't let me shoot my Wolf.... Match Extra 22lr ammo. She tested every box with a magnet.
I understand. Some A-hole out at CRCI shot the steel so that there were only donuts left. That is not an ammo problem, that is an asshole problem.
No handloads?
Is tungsten magnetic? Are there any 'steel killers' that aren't magnetic?
Blue Core in western metro Denver, charges per person, per hour- even if you are on one lane..... Nice to be able to shoot 100 yard indoor, but it is LOUD, almost concussive and really poorly lit.
The problem is that there are lot of idiots out there.
Local indoor range almost didn't let me shoot my Wolf.... Match Extra 22lr ammo. She tested every box with a magnet.
I understand. Some A-hole out at CRCI shot the steel so that there were only donuts left. That is not an ammo problem, that is an asshole problem.
No handloads?
Is tungsten magnetic? Are there any 'steel killers' that aren't magnetic?
Blue Core in western metro Denver, charges per person, per hour- even if you are on one lane..... Nice to be able to shoot 100 yard indoor, but it is LOUD, almost concussive and really poorly lit.
The problem is that there are lot of idiots out there.
Here's one that is funny for steel, M193 is probably more destructive to steel than Wolf. Infact I am almost positive it is. Yet, that shit is fine, but steel cased ammo, "Muh NOOOOO, it AP cuz Steel!!!! Ah!!!!"
Indoor ranges I can kind of see the possible issue, steel jacket and what not and sparking hazard. Okay, fine. But, that doesn't answer the ban on .38 wad cutters at one range I went to that was rated for .50BMG because it could stop the .50BMG but wad cutters would go through I was told by the guy at the counter. WTF? :suicide: or the 12 gauge slugs are fine, but birdshot will damage the backstop at another range.
Now, I understand that indoor ranges are business and all that, but I know one which was probably a nicer one I ever shot at, that I don't think they ever cared what ammo we shot, wolf, tula, brass cased, ect, or if we came from holster or what, as long as we weren't doing stupid shit and that place was about as high end as I have personally found.
Moose-Knuckle
05-13-17, 02:55
Funny story.
So one day I went to an outdoor range that I hadn't shot at since I was a small child. Got to the line after doing the hokey pokey in the office/store and the RO said he needed to inspect my ammo, I was shooting an AR. He told me they had a no FMJ policy, mmkay. News to me. Luckily I keep my range ammo in OEM boxes for lot numbers and such if the need should arise. This was back when any and all quality 5.56 was dried up circa 2008 so I didn't touch any of that and brought along only Remington UMC .223 fodder.
The RO looks at the box where it says ".223 MC" for metallic cartridge and said that I was good to go. LOL!
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4164/34495726891_2805679912_b.jpg
Here's one that is funny for steel, M193 is probably more destructive to steel than Wolf. Infact I am almost positive it is. Yet, that shit is fine, but steel cased ammo, "Muh NOOOOO, it AP cuz Steel!!!! Ah!!!!"
Indoor ranges I can kind of see the possible issue, steel jacket and what not and sparking hazard. Okay, fine. But, that doesn't answer the ban on .38 wad cutters at one range I went to that was rated for .50BMG because it could stop the .50BMG but wad cutters would go through I was told by the guy at the counter. WTF? :suicide: or the 12 gauge slugs are fine, but birdshot will damage the backstop at another range.
Now, I understand that indoor ranges are business and all that, but I know one which was probably a nicer one I ever shot at, that I don't think they ever cared what ammo we shot, wolf, tula, brass cased, ect, or if we came from holster or what, as long as we weren't doing stupid shit and that place was about as high end as I have personally found.
Yep, 193 will usually zip right thru steel at close range, ime.
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Digital_Damage
05-13-17, 07:34
1. Reason for no steel is they recycle.
2. Reason they don't want you picking up brass is they recycle.
3. Reason for no reloads is because of their insurance policy.
FlyingHunter
05-13-17, 08:06
And yet another reason, I lived dirt poor out of college for a bit until I could buy my own dirt. Now my range is out my front door and the RO is typing this comment.
1. Reason for no steel is they recycle.
2. Reason they don't want you picking up brass is they recycle.
3. Reason for no reloads is because of their insurance policy.
The last reason is... It's their business! If we don't like the terms and conditions we don't have to spend our money there.
The last reason is... It's their business! If we don't like the terms and conditions we don't have to spend our money there.
No. In America we don't have to put up with the free will of business owners. Just because they took all the risk to provide a good or service doesn't mean they get to make decisions about their business and potential clientele.
OP. This is simple. Enlist the assistance of the Gay Wedding Cake Army. There'll be a national outcry, court sanctions, fines. They'll have you shooting what you want, when you want, within days. If the business survives, the owners will forever know that this isn't a country where they can pedal their brand of hate, intolerance, bigotry, and discrimination.
1_click_off
05-13-17, 11:47
A range I have been to has a sign that states "No AK47 or SKS, unless all persons on the line are members".
They had a couple clowns come in and shoot all the markers and pulley system up with AK's.
Place is overpriced anyway.
Personally, I can stomach range rules that I don't agree with. If not overly intrusive or cumbersome, I may still even patronize a place with such conditions. There's a place nearby that actually has some of the least restrictive policies in the local market. One can shoot green tip, steel & aluminum cased, etc. As long as a shooter is being safe, rate of fire has no limitations.
It's a very nice range, but I won't go there any longer. They're insanely overpriced, but that's not the main reason I avoid them. The real reason? Their owner went on local news a while back, when the idea of constitutional carry was being suggested, and stated that citizens shouldn't be able to carry without taking a class and obtaining a permit from the State. Bye, Felicia!
Anyone who owns firearms should take actions to ensure they can handle them safely and proficiently. But, I don't believe that any citizen who can legally own a firearm should need to obtain permission from any government to use or carry their own legal property. This was not the sentiment of the range/shop owner. Clearly he saw Constitutional Carry as a hit to his overpriced CHL classes. I get protecting ones livelihood. But if you're in the firearm business, protecting our rights should come first. Period. Taking one 8 hour class for a CHL, and then never doing any other training, isn't going to make one bit of difference.
Personally, I can stomach range rules that I don't agree with. If not overly intrusive or cumbersome, I may still even patronize a place with such conditions. There's a place nearby that actually has some of the least restrictive policies in the local market. One can shoot green tip, steel & aluminum cased, etc. As long as a shooter is being safe, rate of fire has no limitations.
It's a very nice range, but I won't go there any longer. They're insanely overpriced, but that's not the main reason I avoid them. The real reason? Their owner went on local news a while back, when the idea of constitutional carry was being suggested, and stated that citizens shouldn't be able to carry without taking a class and obtaining a permit from the State. Bye, Felicia!
Anyone who owns firearms should take actions to ensure they can handle them safely and proficiently. But, I don't believe that any citizen who can legally own a firearm should need to obtain permission from any government to use or carry their own legal property. This was not the sentiment of the range/shop owner. Clearly he saw Constitutional Carry as a hit to his overpriced CHL classes. I get protecting ones livelihood. But if you're in the firearm business, protecting our rights should come first. Period. Taking one 8 hour class for a CHL, and then never doing any other training, isn't going to make one bit of difference.
Unfortunately your constitutional rights were established in a time when firearms were used by a high percentage of our population. The training was passed down from one generation to the next. Not true today. Any responsible citizen with no firearms training should seek at least basic training. I don't believe it should be mandated by big brother but I DO think irresponsible gun owners should be appropriately punished if their lack of training results in injury to others. Be honest now... Do you know anyone who owns a gun that probably shouldn't??
The people who run that range are commies.
Are they going to check each round? Many times I just show up with a box of bulk rounds. Usually marked Federal. Or Lake City.
The list leaves out some decent and common ammo, like the Magtech CBC stuff, PMC, Wolf Gold, MEN, Etc.
I wouldn't go to that range anymore if it can be avoided.
One of the ranges by me was the best. They had a sign "No Steel Case Ammo" so when I got a crappy AK for shits and giggles I went there without bringing any of the Wolf x39 that I had. I assumed they would have brass cased x39 since they don't allow steel cased. Went up to the counter and asked for some ammo. Was handed boxes of Wolf. I inquired, WTF? You said no steel case? They didn't even know they had that sign up in the range. Nice.
No issues here. I use 3 different ranges and the rules are a none issue.
First indoor range allows anything except for tracers and bird shot.
Second indoor range same thing as the first but also IF you rent their guns you have to buy their ammo.
Third is state game land. No AP ammo and mags loaded to 3rds although it's no a big deal if you do as long as you don't go crazy pretending it's FA
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davidjinks
05-13-17, 17:44
For those who encounter such idiocy, don't shoot there.
Go someplace else. Give money to their competition. Let them know why you're not shooting there and why you've chosen to shoot elsewhere.
Unfortunately your constitutional rights were established in a time when firearms were used by a high percentage of our population. The training was passed down from one generation to the next. Not true today. Any responsible citizen with no firearms training should seek at least basic training. I don't believe it should be mandated by big brother but I DO think irresponsible gun owners should be appropriately punished if their lack of training results in injury to others. Be honest now... Do you know anyone who owns a gun that probably shouldn't??
Oh I get it. I'm also with you on going as far as punishing irresponsible owners. The reality is that a person who takes a half-day CHL class, and then never does any additional training, is really no better off than a person who never takes the class. In some regards, a mandated class can actually have some negative side effects. You ask if I know people who shouldn't own or handle firearms. Absolutely. But some of those people have their CHL permit. Yet, because they have a permit, they believe they know it all and are gtg.
My point was that requiring a class to CC guarantees almost nothing when it comes to an individual's level of responsibility. That everyone must commit to becoming safe and proficient with their firearms. I feel like we're saying the same thing, but maybe it's not coming across that way.
I had a range ask me for a copy of my NFA papwerwork, left never went back. Simple as that, never thought about it again till reading this.
There's too many free places to shoot to put up with dumb shit, if you stop paying the ranges will be more accepting and opened minded. I'll play by their rules if I choose too, not because I have too.
Did they ask to see your NFA paperwork or did they want an actual copy for them?
Did they ask to see your NFA paperwork or did they want an actual copy for them?
Just to view.
Somme of those rules seem a little overboard, but it's not my range and I am not familiar with their circumstances.
The local one by me has, like one:
-"High power" rifles have to use hollow points or soft tip ammo. FMJ will damage the range wall, so it's understandable.
Unfortunately your constitutional rights were established in a time when firearms were used by a high percentage of our population. The training was passed down from one generation to the next. Not true today. Any responsible citizen with no firearms training should seek at least basic training. I don't believe it should be mandated by big brother but I DO think irresponsible gun owners should be appropriately punished if their lack of training results in injury to others. Be honest now... Do you know anyone who owns a gun that probably shouldn't??
I know some cc'ers who shouldn't. They're easy to spot, with their CCL badge and all. Hell, they usually find a way to show it.[emoji57]
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Just collect the empty boxes while there and transfer your "bad" ammo into them. On the other hand, maybe the owners are ignorant to what is out here quality wise and you can speak with them and show samples so they may change at least the allowed ammunition.
Eurodriver
05-14-17, 08:10
I serve on the board of directors for a long range.
Have you asked around why this rule was implemented? It was likely an overreaction by uneducated management or a poor decision by unscrupulous individuals. This has nothing to do with insurance policies or any such thing.
RetroRevolver77
05-14-17, 08:27
I had some tard who worked at the range- try to steal my brass as it hit the floor.
Moose-Knuckle
05-14-17, 08:43
I had some tard who worked at the range- try to steal my brass as it hit the floor.
You bought the ammo and it's brass. It's your property plain and simple. I'd never frequent a range that has a rule that states I can't pick up my own brass.
I'm not a reloader at this time, but I've given bags of my used brass to buddies that do. In fact, its the principle of the matter for me I pick up all my brass now as it is literally money on the ground.
I serve on the board of directors for a long range.
Have you asked around why this rule was implemented? It was likely an overreaction by uneducated management or a poor decision by unscrupulous individuals. This has nothing to do with insurance policies or any such thing.
It's entirely possible, probably even likely, that the rules resulted from a rash or ill-informed decision by management/ownership. Still, it's a bit shortsighted to assert is has nothing to do with insurance policies. There is an incredible amount of diversity when it comes to Commercial Underwriting; with countless forms, endorsements, and amendments. Throw in the nuance of a particular jurisdiction, coupled with a carrier's risk tolerance, and all sorts of odd conditions can find their way into a policy.
Being an Officer or Board Member at a single club, and seeing an insurance policy or two, doesn't make one an insurance SME. In this case, I agree you're probably right that ownership's responsible, but stranger thing have happened with business owners' policies. It could even be a result of the owner's interpretation of a line from their policy/renewal. That they feel these range rules better guarantee coverage in the event of a loss. But, that's not really the insurer's fault, and instead falls into the category of the owner being ill-informed.
Ultimately, I'm with you on the main point. If a range rule seems questionable, just ask for some details on why it was instituted.
I can't imagine what kind of money they would be paying for insurance through any but NRA.
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Ultimately, I'm with you on the main point. If a range rule seems questionable, just ask for some details on why it was instituted.
I found that helpful only when the owner or employee could carry their end of the conversation. Some of the replies are pretty funny though. Most often...
insurance reasons
that ammo is inaccurate
that ammo is unreliable
sum prior mil/LE dood says
that ammo is AP
the NRA says
Stories abound.
Eurodriver
05-14-17, 18:35
Never claimed to be an SME on insurance but I thought I'd chime in given I've actually purchased insurance and dealt with the agent for a large (I meant to say large in my previous post) shooting facility.
My bad. I'll let the forum go back to guessing based on what the clerk told them.
I can't imagine what kind of money they would be paying for insurance through any but NRA.
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We pay approximately $6,000/yr in insurance not counting D&O, auto, etc.
It's not terrible, but I suppose for poorly run organizations it would be seen as an unnecessary expense and attempts would be made to reduce it any way possible.
I still fail to see how specific brands matter. Our insurance company doesn't give a **** what ammo people use as long as it isn't tracers to prevent fires.
NTX Range?
What one? Elm Fork?
eta
nm google to the rescue RRW
Talking about insurance is kind of foolish unless you know a little bit about the range itself:
1) is it a private, members only range?
2) is it a pistol or rifle club?
3) is it a privately owned range open to the general public?
4) are there any local or state required minimums for insurance?
5) age limits on users?
6) staff on premises?
7) types of firearms allowed?
8) geography - insurance for a range that you own which is set dead in the middle of six sections that you also own is going to be less expensive than for a range that coexists with urban sprawl.
NRA is tops for club insurance, but there are other considerations.
I found that helpful only when the owner or employee could carry their end of the conversation. Some of the replies are pretty funny though. Most often...
insurance reasons
that ammo is inaccurate
that ammo is unreliable
sum prior mil/LE dood says
that ammo is AP
the NRA says
Stories abound.
Lol. Very true. Not every answer will be adequate.
To your point, I'd probably put responses into 4 categories.
1) Forthcoming and accurate
2) Forthcoming, but innacurate (They think they know but really have no clue)
3) Reticent, but honest. (They have reason to be ambiguous, but provide enough info that an intelligent person can draw some conclusions)
4) Flat out lying
All of the above can be of value...if one can peg where the answer falls within that spectrum. The funny thing is, "flat out liars" aren't the ones who cause the most problems; it's #2. The ones who are happy to share information but, for whatever reason, have no idea what they're talking about. Because they genuinely believe what they are saying is true, it's not always obvious that bad intel is being spread. So those are the ones you really have to look out for :)
I still fail to see how specific brands matter. Our insurance company doesn't give a **** what ammo people use as long as it isn't tracers to prevent fires.
Even though I disagreed with the inference that rules couldn't be the result of an insurance policy, I still agree with you that it's highly unlikely it's the case here.
An more plausible example I'd point to would be something dealing with lead based ammo. Environmental concerns are absolutely something that would be considered when writing an insurance policy. If a certain state or jurisdiction was aggressive on pollution, Carriers may add an amendment that would disqualify coverage for environmental "damage" that was the proximate cause of lead ammo usage. Kind of similar in principle to the tracers at your range, but not quite as obvious to the casual observer.
Just to view.
Nothing wrong with that. They are just making sure nobody has an illegal firearm on their property. I always carry photocopies of my Form 4/3s in my range bag.
Around me there are three indoor ranges. I haven't been to one of them but I looked their rules up online.
First range make you buy ammo from them. From when I went years ago the ammo was usually cheap stuff like blazer. Frangible rifle ammo only(older range). They also sell defensive pistol ammo which you can shoot there. They had a royal asshole as a manager when I was a member who made me stop going. Now he apparently works at range 2. Good thing was this place had a wall of machineguns to rent. Membership was pretty cheap if you bought it after black friday as the following year was half off when I was there and they did give you a discount on the ammo.
Range two used to let you bring your own ammo for everything(I'm guessing you needed to buy their ammo for rentals). They had people trashing their backdrop with armor piercing ammo in rifles so now you have to buy their rifle ammo. You can still bring pistol and shotgun ammo. Honestly this place is expensive so I don't normally go. I wandered in a few days ago and they had colt rifles above msrp(colt did just drop the msrp's not that long ago). I said something about it and got kinda a dick answer from the guy at the counter about how much they paid for the guns(which I know was still less than the new msrp). I told them that wasn't my problem and walked out. I was going to pick up an extra 6920 to throw in the safe for my niece that is coming(have one for my nephew already).
Third range is the one I haven't been too for shooting. Looks like they have separate pistol and rifle zones which can be nice as rifles indoors can be loud. Looks like they have some normal ammo restrictions on rifle ammo(no steel core, tracer, cast, etc) but thats about it. You need to buy their ammo for rentals. Their gun store sucked when I went it but they hadn't been opened long and they are the furthest from me. Membership is kinda pricy but not as bad as range two. It is the company's second range and I've heard some mixed stuff about their first.
For outdoor ranges one has like a two plus year wait and you must have a member recomend you. I know a few members and just haven't made it out there. The other which I am a member of is limited and has open enrollment for the spots not renewed at the beginning of the year. Mostly an older crowd shooting there and has the owner or one or two others overseeing it. I've read and heard of people saying that they have gotten crap for fast firing there but I fire a machine gun(they allow it on saturdays) and haven't had an issue. The range is now surrounded by residential zones so I get them being careful. For ammo restrictions no tracer and the pistol range has a rule that nothing else can even be on it. Ie you can't bring your rifles or shotguns down there to go to another range later. They do have a rule about inspecting atf paperwork. I know some on here will go off about how they wouldn't show it but it is their rule. Honestly the yearly price is cheap, the members are generally friendly, and you don't have people doing too many stupid things as they will kick you out for it. It takes all of 30 seconds for the old man that owns it to look at the serial on the paperwork and on the item. Until recently I hadn't seen many up there with sbrs or suppressors but I've been seeing a few more. I'm always shooting something suppressed it seems. I usually offer to let others shoot my m10 machinegun and just load it with like 5 rounds so if they walk it they will not shoot over the berm. Towards the end of the season they have a member cook out and competition which is actually pretty nice.
Unless that policy isn't unique, I know exactly which range that is and I think it was that policy that kept people from signing up for a class earlier this year by a very reputable instructor so it got cancelled.
Unless that policy isn't unique, I know exactly which range that is and I think it was that policy that kept people from signing up for a class earlier this year by a very reputable instructor so it got cancelled.
Who was the instructor?
Who was the instructor?
Mike Pannone Covert Carry class. Too bad it was cancelled. Only an hour drive for me. Low enrollment numbers. :(
Digital_Damage
05-15-17, 10:21
Never claimed to be an SME on insurance but I thought I'd chime in given I've actually purchased insurance and dealt with the agent for a large (I meant to say large in my previous post) shooting facility.
My bad. I'll let the forum go back to guessing based on what the clerk told them.
We pay approximately $6,000/yr in insurance not counting D&O, auto, etc.
It's not terrible, but I suppose for poorly run organizations it would be seen as an unnecessary expense and attempts would be made to reduce it any way possible.
I still fail to see how specific brands matter. Our insurance company doesn't give a **** what ammo people use as long as it isn't tracers to prevent fires.
Hand/reloads are certainly on the list of no-no's for most policies.
Never seen restrictions on brands/manufactures.
I've heard of a range near me that won't allow AKs or SKSs unless they have an optic mounted...
Sure I'll just get one one of those crappy dust cover mounts that's no better than a canted front sight tower. Or maybe just max out the elevation and windage. "Oops, I shot your floor and roof and target retrieval system? I just bought this optic so I could shoot here and it hasn't been dialed in yet."
I once had an AK with a gnarley fsb cant but it still wasn't off more than 10 moa. Seems like an easy thing for them to check with a bore laser.
I've heard of a range near me that won't allow AKs or SKSs unless they have an optic mounted...
Sure I'll just get one one of those crappy dust cover mounts that's no better than a canted front sight tower. Or maybe just max out the elevation and windage. "Oops, I shot your floor and roof and target retrieval system? I just bought this optic so I could shoot here and it hasn't been dialed in yet."
I once had an AK with a gnarley fsb cant but it still wasn't off more than 10 moa. Seems like an easy thing for them to check with a bore laser.
Lol. I just went through a similar issue with an Ak, when I got it, set it on the bench to see where the zero was, and ended up cranking the windage all the way over trying to get it to zero and I was still about 24 inches off to the right. Ended up having to work on the FSB, cranking it over to try to remove cant. Go back out to the range, get rough zero at 25, looks like I am still a little right, but still have windage to play with, set up two targets at the 50 yard line after some slight adjustments, line sights up, fire a three round group, a beautiful 1 inch group at 50 yards with Red Army standard 122grHP right in the center of one of the targets. Only problem? It was the target to the right of the one I was aiming for, about 18inches to the right. Ended up getting fed up and stopping being gentle, grabbed a heavy duty screw driver and used it as a bit of a leverage bar to crank the FSB over far enough to get a proper zero, still had to move the windage a little, but at least now it hits what the hell I am aiming at now.
Anyway, on topic, the whole they need optics to shoot at the range it kind of ludicrous. I mean, what f the optic fails, or is just shit, or the dumbass behind the trifle is a complete retard. I mean, I can put a $3K S&B optic and still bump fire the thing putting rounds everyplace but the target like the best of the fudds. Or I can be dead serious about trying to shoot good groups and run a quality optic with a POS mount and have rounds going every which way because it is going to rattle off. There are just so many holes in that logic that it is a wonder they even allow live ammo on the range.
What range is this? I'm in North Texas as well.
If you're interested in the exact opposite, a range where you are nearly killed each time you attend, buy into the Lonestar Gun Club as I did for $200/year. You get to do whatever you want(literally) under the watchful gaze of one of the many methhead 20 year old RO's and dodge frag from the tannerite Bubba stacked on top of one another.
What range is this? I'm in North Texas as well.
If you're interested in the exact opposite, a range where you are nearly killed each time you attend, buy into the Lonestar Gun Club as I did for $200/year. You get to do whatever you want(literally) under the watchful gaze of one of the many methhead 20 year old RO's and dodge frag from the tannerite Bubba stacked on top of one another.
Red River West in Gainesville.
I went to B-Tactical in Caddo Mills for the first time today. It was a good overall experience: inexpensive; 50, 100, 300, & 400 yd rifle ranges; no ammo restrictions; clean & well kept; however no full time RSO so had to make sure to clearly communicate with the other shooters regarding range hot or cold. They do make you "qualify" @ a 100 yard paper target before they will let you shoot steel @ 300 & 400 yds.
After looking at Lonestar's website, no thanks. "Redneck Resort" = dumbasses & dangerous
LGC is so bad I had to look up the name before I posted about it, and I'm a member.
I mean, I can put a $3K S&B optic and still bump fire the thing putting rounds everyplace but the target like the best of the fudds.
Is there a consensus in the community on what qualifies one as a "fudd"? It often seems to be thrown around with too broad a stroke. Or, maybe I've just always been wrong on its denotation. I'd thought it was more so intended to define one's position on firearm rights. That a fudd is someone who's gone all-in on "sporting purposes" (trap, skeet, waterfoul & varmint hunting, plinking). Beyond sporting purposes, fudds could really care less about 2A rights. They don't really view or appreciate firearms as relating to defense. They're soft on government trying to take away ARs, semi-auto handguns, etc. They'll even buy into the idea that those sorts of firearms aren't really necessary. As long as Uncle Sam ain't trying to take their granddaddy's duck gun, they don't really care to rally along with us in fending of threats to our 2A rights.
In conversation, it seems "fudd" is more often used with a connotation that pokes fun at, or degrades, another's shooting capabilities; or what the type of shooting they find enjoyable. Simply put, the connotation is, fudd = not a true operator/mall ninja/dirt clod shooter/etc. I get it. To some, it's hard to understand someone else running a bump stock, or other tacticool bolt-ons that aren't all that practical. It seems like nonsense. It might be nonsense. But, a lot of those guys are more rabidly pro-2A than genuine BTDT operators/professionals.
Again, I get it. But, I sometimes think gun owners can be their own worst enemy. Throwing the fudd label around is one of those things that probably doesn't do the community any favors. If someone wants to burn up ammo at the range, have at it. What I care about is if the person will stand up for our 2A rights; unequivocally. I know people who've never been professional gunfighters. Who enjoy running a slidefire and blasting some tannerite every once in a while. Who will spend their entire lives only shooting dirt, paper, and steel. But, the moment there's any remote threat to the 2nd Amendment, they're quick to mobilize, stand and fight. I also know guys that have seen combat, can still handle themselves if the need arises, but who don't believe private citizens should be able to own ARs. The former might be the people we see at the range and shake our heads at, but the latter are the real fudds. I just think we might be wise to be a bit more tempered with throwing around the term. True fudds are a problem; but they come in all forms, shapes and sizes.
True fudds are a problem; but they come in all forms, shapes and sizes.
I think you're on the point there. But, to degrees it is a catchall. And a fast way to type idiots.
I generally will define it as someone, disregarding the type of guns they are using, who are borderline, or straight up unsafe and DOES NOT CARE. Hence the bump fire remark. Having seen guys do mag dumps bump firing and literally not hit the target 15 feet in front of them, but there are tree branches coming down off the tree that is located above the target, they are a Fudd, and that is because that is the nicest thing I can say before going off on them. The usual point I go with as far as bump fire or slide fire, is go ahead, as long as you can still hit what the hell you are aiming at, or at least the backstop, as soon as you can't, you need to stop because now you are a liability. As far as tannerite, use common sense. Packing it in a metal container and expecting something other than a bomb. See previous remarks.
After that is comes down to those who only care about the what they have. They, "i don't care if they ban ARs I already have mine so they can't take it, I'll be grandfathered like last time." And Generally making other gun owners look like idiots. OCers get pointed out quite often for that. I wouldn't say there hard and fast rules with it. I know guys who the largest capacity gun they have is a 3 shot semi auto shotgun who will pound the table that you should be able to buy a machine gun because **** the liberals and don't give an inch on 2A rights ever. I also know guys who actually own machine guns who will go, "They need to ban or force registration of more things. plebs shouldn't have such firepower."
That's insane. My club has only the basic rules. No touching of firearms while people are dowrange. No ROs. No ammo or magazine restrictions. Don't break the 180 on one of the open ranges. Don't shoot over the berm.
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