View Full Version : Why Lee?
I asked this on another forum, but am curious to see the answers here too. Why do so many people suggest Lee products to those interested in reloading? Their scales I've seen in action don't balance well, the presses I've handled all felt cheap and their powder measuring system with the dippers to me just seems to invite to much variance. For a little more money one can get into better presses, scales and micrometers that aren't made of plastic and don't give a consistent read
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CrazyFingers
05-17-17, 08:58
For a little more money one can get into better presses
That probably answers your question for the majority of people making the suggestions you asked about. I use Lee dies for 9mm & .45 ACP on a Redding T-7, which work fine. I replaced my Lee .223 die set with Redding after the Lee decided to start tearing up my brass and then fell apart when I disassembled it. Perhaps that indicates a design flaw in the Lee .223 dies, or perhaps it was just a one-off fluke. A data set of [one] is not that useful.
fedupflyer
05-17-17, 11:13
More than likely because Lee is a good low cost "Entry Level" brand.
Are there better products out there sure but for folks just getting into reloading it makes sense to go with a low cost option.
I own a RCBS Jr ( cast in 1968), and a Dillon 550. The Lee classic cast sits with them quite well. Superior spent primer collection, better leverage, ability to handle 50 bmg , easy to maintain with oil points, adjustable handle.
The Lee crimp die is also well designed and effective.
I have passed on their scales and measures. I am sure that they work ok but Redding and RCBS fill that role for me.
The Lee [sic: factory] crimp die is also well designed and effective. I have passed on their scales and measures. I am sure that they work ok but Redding and RCBS fill that role for me.
LOVE some of their products like their factory crimp die and their neck-sizing collet die is a best buy/must have for bolt guns.
But I too pass on their scales.
One of their $24 power measures, w/ neoprene wiper, worked as well in a huge powder drop test that one of the single shot forums hosted; working as well as ~$240 Harrells culver measures.
Lee=junk. Period. I have bought some and given some and even the free $4¡t wasn't worth what I paid for it.
A few cents more or a buck or two and you can have something worth your time and money.
My first car wasn't a new Rolls Royce or a Cadillac it was a 54 Chevy with a moving blanket covering the worn out front seat.
I started reloading with a Lee loader and then bought a RCBS Rockchucker press in 1973 that I'm still using today.
Last night I sized 500 once fired military 9mm cases with a Lee die on my 44 year old Rockchucker press.
"Why Lee" has a simple answer, its a product many people can afford. And not everyone needs or can afford a Rolls Royce.
http://www.decalsplanet.com/img_b/vinyl-decal-sticker-2198.jpg
I use the Lee Decapping die, Factory Crimp die and they're great for what they do. I have the .223 RGB "Really Great Buy" 2 die set and the resizing die scratches my brass. I only used it in a pinch because I bent the rod on my RCBS die.
One set of Lee carbide pistol dies has been great but on another set I had to do a lot of thread clean up on the stems.
The stems don't lock so they have to be checked or adjusted constantly. The locking rings have to be setup fresh every time they're removed so I bought Hornady locking rings. I would've just bought Hornady pistol dies for what I spent adding locking rings to the Lee dies.
The amazing thing about most Lee products is that they actually work. The designs are decent but the materials are not. Take the Pro 1000 for example. It is a decent little press. It is simple to operate and easy to change calibers on even if you change out the shell plate rather than the whole carrier assembly. The downfall is the Pro 1000's construction of pot metal, plastic and aluminum.
I agree with tokarev. For the most part Lee uses cheaper materials. The only exception is the classic cast press. Unless it has changed since I purchased mine in 2002....
My first car wasn't a new Rolls Royce or a Cadillac it was a 54 Chevy with a moving blanket covering the worn out front seat.
I started reloading with a Lee loader and then bought a RCBS Rockchucker press in 1973 that I'm still using today.
Last night I sized 500 once fired military 9mm cases with a Lee die on my 44 year old Rockchucker press.
"Why Lee" has a simple answer, its a product many people can afford. And not everyone needs or can afford a Rolls Royce.
Well a lot of old timers that review newer Lee equipment are in about unanimous agreement that the affordable Lee of yesteryear ain't the affordable Lee of today.
Well a lot of old timers that review newer Lee equipment are in about unanimous agreement that the affordable Lee of yesteryear ain't the affordable Lee of today.
That may be true. But if Lee sees itself as the affordable option they are likely forced to cut corners and cheapen things up to keep prices low.
This gets back to my original post. A Pro 1000 made of steel with metal gears would probably be as durable as about anything else out there. But it would probably cost as much as a Dillon Square Deal.
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I have heard good things about their crimp die, but other than that I've heard issues with everything else. Maybe just isolated cases..... I don't see how it's the cheaper option in the long run though. How many people have honestly started reloading, then quit? As compared to those who go on with it, not many I'm guessing. So why not direct people to go buy a rock chucker press, t7, Lyman press etc, a good Redding or rcbs scale along with a uniflow and rcbs dies? That way they have quality the first time around, haven't broke the bank and have equipment that doesn't have corners cut in the manufacturing process? The powder thrower and press might get upgraded down the line, but you can load a lot of top quality ammo with the aforementioned equipment.
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Some of the LEE dies are unbeatable. I've got the lowest neck run-out, BY FAR, with the lee collet neck dies. And the Lee factory crimp die is priceless in my .223 production.
The problem with Lee is that the stuff is often made with cheap materials.... so the dies wear out faster. But again, it's usually under $20 to replace them. I would be unhappy without the Lee Dies I have.
To quote Glen Zeidecker in his Loading for Competition book " Richard Lee gets up on the other side of the bed
that nobody else sleeps in", some of his ideas are genuinely innovative.
Tale his rifle decapping rods, they are essentially full length tapered mandrels that control neck expansion without
the dreaded chatter from expansion balls even those reversed and polished in a chuck.
They also now offer undersized mandrel/decapping rods.
Its not how fast you mow, its how well you mow fast.
Its not how much your dies cost, its how well you enjoy shooting your reloads.
And I started reloading with a Lee loader, a plastic hammer, a single powder scoop and a plastic Lyman caliper.
The problem with Lee is that the stuff is often made with cheap materials.... so the dies wear out faster. But again, it's usually under $20 to replace them. I would be unhappy without the Lee Dies I have.
As you probably know, Lee will recondition or replace anything they make for half new price if you send it in.
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As you probably know, Lee will recondition or replace anything they make for half new price if you send it in.
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Rcbs backs their stuff up with unconditional lifetime warranties.
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Rcbs backs their stuff up with unconditional lifetime warranties.
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As does Dillon and Hornady.
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Leonidas24
05-18-17, 08:57
To echo what others have already said the Lee crimp die is one of the most useful dies I have that's easy to set and forget, and it makes the perfect crimp every time. One piece of Lee equipment I've refused to give up has been a bench mounted Perfect Powder Measure. It's cheap, plastic, but it throws -- as the name implies -- the perfect powder charge every time. After prepping brass, and priming a load of cases I'll set up my seating die on station 1 of a 5 station Hornady progressive press, with a Lee factory crimp die on station 2, and charge all my cases on a Lee powder measure before feeding them into the press and seating a bullet. The Hornady powder drop that came with the AP throws anywhere from .2-.5 gr up or down from where it's set and there always seems to be powder stuck in the neck of the funnel.
As does Dillon and Hornady.
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Wasn't sure about hornady, but knew Dillon did. Just haven't had to use their warranties yet. Only reason I needed to use the rcbs was I dropped a micrometer and screwed it up. Called them, told them what happened,I sent mine in and they sent me a brand new one.
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Rcbs backs their stuff up with unconditional lifetime warranties.
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Fred Huntington sold RCBS decades ago and he passed some years ago. I, and my family, knew him well. He was such a pompous arrogant ass that I still have trouble buying anything RCBS just out of spite.
That said, as I started to reload 40 years ago, I bought. Lyman and Lee starter kits as that's all I could really afford. I got a Lee 1000 for 9 & 10mm in '83. I still have and use both. I have had to replace some plastic parts over the years, but not a big deal. I just use the 1000 for 9mm any more as the 1000 is not the most precise but more than good enough for training ammo and nothing else is faster than the Lee for bulk reloading. Especially for the price. I have a Dillon 550 for 10mm and 5.56. I would have to spend nearly 4x what I spent on the Lee to do the same thing with same features. The Lee isn't the best built, but it does the job.
I started loading many years ago with a lee classic cast and lee dies, they still work as good now as then.
I love my lee collet dies and crimp dies, I have every die manufacture out there some are better than others no doubt. I bought my lee equipment when I started cause it was cheaper than the rest and didn't know if I would like reloading.
As you probably know, Lee will recondition or replace anything they make for half new price if you send it in.
I did not know that. But I'd likely just buy a replacement and not have to deal with returning anything.
I too am a huge fan of their FCD's and use them quite a lot. Their pistol dies are quite excellent as they size down further to the base to take out any bulge from the base that other dies miss or create. There are few things more annoying than to do a large load of pistol ammo and then find half of it doesn't plunk into the gauge because the case wasn't sized all the way down. I also like their ball case cuttter as it's simple to trim down some length before setting up a WFT to do large batches.
Another unique Lee product is the hand press. I've had one of these little suckers for twenty years and have loaded everything from 380 Auto to 308 Winchester on it. I still use it from time to time for sizing cases prior to tumbling or when working up loads or loading in small batches.
The leverage isn't the best and I think the press could use longer handles but it works well for what it is and easily fits in a range bag or similar.
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Some of the LEE dies are unbeatable. I've got the lowest neck run-out, BY FAR, with the lee collet neck dies. And the Lee factory crimp die is priceless in my .223 production.
The problem with Lee is that the stuff is often made with cheap materials.... so the dies wear out faster. But again, it's usually under $20 to replace them. I would be unhappy without the Lee Dies I have.
Important question: how much crimp do you put in your .223? I've seen you mentioning it has improved your groups substantially. If I'm measuring with a caliper, how many thousandths down should it be?
Another unique Lee product is the hand press.
I'll have to googlize that. Sounds like something i'd love!
Important question: how much crimp do you put in your .223? I've seen you mentioning it has improved your groups substantially. If I'm measuring with a caliper, how many thousandths down should it be?
I don't measure things like this. It drives the instrumentation only/everything must be quantified loaders nuts. I just adjust it until I can see a little bit of the collet marks on the neck. I'm a big fan of feeling what the press it telling me. I can tell when my neck tension sucks/is inconsistent by feel over some ridiculous gauge/measurement.
I'll have to googlize that. Sounds like something i'd love!
Here you go:
http://leeprecision.com/breech-lock-hand-press.html
Mine is an older version without the breech lock deal but it is essentially the same.
It isn't fast at all but I do find it a useful tool. It works well for loading small batches when working up subsonic loads for 300BLK.
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I got a Lee 1000 for 9 & 10mm in '83.
What probably surprises me the most about the Pro 1000 is how little the press has changed in 30 years. The handle linkage is a little different but the basic design is pretty much unchanged.
I'd really like to see Lee come out with a newer "Pro 2000" that's maybe based off the cast turret press body. Something a bit heavier with a little longer stroke. Also that has room for four dies instead of just three. I think something like this that's priced in the $200 range would be a good seller even though it would probably cut into the Load Master market.
Speaking of the Load Master; I have a friend who wanted to get into progressive reloading and was motivated by cost. I told him to save himself some grief and buy a Lock N Load. But he did all kinds of reading on various forums and whatnot and eventually bought the Lee. I helped him get it set up and we loaded maybe fifty rounds together. I found the press to work well once we got it mounted and adjusted.
The one thing I found really goofball on the LM was the priming on the upstroke. I told Jason not to force anything and to make sure he went slow for awhile until he got a good feel for the primer system. Well, about 20 minutes after I left he jammed a primer and forced the press on the upstroke. Pow! Off the press went to eBay.
After that he decided cheap wasn't necessarily his only motivator. He bought a 650 and started cranking out match-ready reloads in no time.
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To me, when dealing with equipment that needs to be precision based, quality is more important than price. I can save a few extra months and get what I want. If price is your only diving factor, you'll be left frustrated and disappointed.
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Other than my anecdote about the Load Master above I have no real experience with this particular Lee. But people apparently use the LM with good results.
It is hard to argue against something like this for the money. This is complete and ready to go. Only additional thing (other than a work area) is a powder scale.
http://www.titanreloading.com/lee-precision-reloading-equipment/lee-presses/lee-load-master/lee-load-master-rifle-calibers/223-rem-lee-load-master
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To me, when dealing with equipment that needs to be precision based, quality is more important than price. I can save a few extra months and get what I want. If price is your only diving factor, you'll be left frustrated and disappointed.
Money is no object for me either when it comes to precision loading. And I still use several Lee Dies because there's nothing that gives better results.
Money is no object for me either when it comes to precision loading. And I still use several Lee Dies because there's nothing that gives better results.
This, exactly.
I have other dies in calibers that Lee doesn't make dies for (my .450 Bushmaster are .450 Marlin dies are Hornady, my .460 S&W dies are RCBS because that's what was in stock at the LGS) and I find the non-Lee dies unnecessarily complicated and I hate using any type of crimp die besides the Lee Factory Crimp die.
I have a Load Master setup for 9mm and I've had nothing but luck with it, my single stage is a Classic Cast.
My scale is a Dillon though, I've never used a Lee scale so I can't comment on them.
Anyone who blanket dismisses all Lee as junk lose credability with me fast.
I use the best from each mfg, and for certain things Lee products have no equal:
-collet dies
-crimp dies
-universal deprimer (and depriming function in general)
-Autoprimer (though I now have an upgraded stainless/brass version which uses the Lee trays and she'll holders)
But other mtgs for other things:
- Forster coax press
- Forster micrometer seating dies for some Calibers
- rcbs powder measure from the 70s, now with micrometer
- rcbs labeled ohous scale
- redding powder trickler
Mixture of Forster, hornady, Lee, and rcbs dies. With Lyman, Forster, or hornady lock rings.
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-Autoprimer (though I now have an upgraded stainless/brass version which uses the Lee trays and she'll holders)
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More info please.
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More info please.
21st Century Shooting makes a CNC body, handle and ram that uses the Lee Autoprime trays. It's adjustable in throw, and replaces all the pot metal parts.
http://www.xxicsi.com/auto-feed-ss-priming-tool-for-the-lee--new-auto-prime-tray.html
http://nebula.wsimg.com/a591ec09a8e90da20eda03b84c013c97?AccessKeyId=D665AA0C95BD1D877538&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
Mine is an earlier model with Aluminum adonized body, but this is essentially the same, just in stainless and a bit more expensive.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/L4l3B6g6bQs/hqdefault.jpg
I loaded thousands with the original Lee, and you'd ultimately wear out the knob on the end of the ram.
This one will last the rest of my lifetime.
My unit they made for either the old round trays or the new (safer) square trays. But the round trays are no longer available.
Wow that's pretty interesting.
How's the leverage on the tool? Does it require a different amount of effort over the Lee? Does it cause thumb fatique over the course of several hundred cases?
Makes my point that Lee products can be made to a higher standard but price will increase accordingly...
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Wow that's pretty interesting.
How's the leverage on the tool? Does it require a different amount of effort over the Lee? Does it cause thumb fatique over the course of several hundred cases?
Makes my point that Lee products can be made to a higher standard but price will increase accordingly...
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Leverage is largely the same, but you can adjust the link length which changes the angle of the lever. So it does change the perceived torque depending on how you have it set.
The magic of the auto prime is that since it's fingertip you can tell exactly when the primer is bottomed out.add a bunch of leverage and the lever throw increases and you lose the feel.
As to quality, I loaded using my original Lee AutoPrime for over 20 years and was competing IHMSA during that period. My brother also used it quite a bit. So after 20 years of use, I wore out a $3 part, which Lee would have probably replaced for free.
Much of that period I was using a Lee turret press, which I bought used, and my brother is still using. I think he spent $6-7 in parts on it a few years ago, and it's still tight.
Point being, While I can be a material/construction snob, the reality is most getting started will not be limited by many of the Lee products.
I love my Bonanza/Forster press, would not use anything else. But if I had to buy one new to get started I'd never be reloading.
Lately I like hornady pistol dies, but used Lee prior. For Mausers I just buy the Lee dies that include the collet die. I'll never break a decapping pin like I have in Forster/hornady dies.
For anything but a turret press I don't like the Lee lock rings, so they get replaced. Found a dozen lock rings a buck a piece at a show, so I'm set for a while.
ShotgunMiddie
05-28-17, 10:22
That probably answers your question for the majority of people making the suggestions you asked about. I use Lee dies for 9mm & .45 ACP on a Redding T-7, which work fine. I replaced my Lee .223 die set with Redding after the Lee decided to start tearing up my brass and then fell apart when I disassembled it. Perhaps that indicates a design flaw in the Lee .223 dies, or perhaps it was just a one-off fluke. A data set of [one] is not that useful.
I've torn up so much brass, but then just went a head and got a universal decapper, problem solved. Yeah I have to throw in another step to resize and make sure my brass is lubed but whatever.
I'm also new to reloading, and yes, the Lee stuff was a good entry, but everything works, I just didn't get their junk scale or powder throw, problem solved.
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