View Full Version : Issue with my reloads
ffhounddog
09-29-08, 07:15
Well I went camping and shooting this weekend and used my reloads while shooting my AR and I was getting class 3 malfuntions. Bolt was not reseting and a round was getting gumed up in the chamber. Live round not the previous case. The round following the first round.
I cleaned the AR before the class started.
Took an A1 out as well and it did that after 7 rounds.
Basically my reloads are getting stuck in the chamber being gumed up quick too. It is a Sabre 5.56 AR upper.
Do I not have enough powder in the rounds I am thinking. I switched out BCGs and the same thing happened.
I thought it was the BCGs but I guess I was wrong.
I finished the class with Wolf.
Load is:
55 grain Federal Bullet
23.3 grains of Ramshot powder
COL: is 2.250
Primer is FED 205
I was thinking of loading up some rounds from the same batch of brass with 24.4-24.8 grains to see if it is truely not enough powder and I might be getting more blowback.
The chambers are black with gum and there were some brass shavings. Maybe too much lube maybe I need to get a new sizing die.
Ideas or suggestions would be helpful.
Rifle Sabre Defense Upper/RRA Lower
BCG is a COLT BCG
It is a midlength
What KIND of Ramshot powder? (there are several)
If we're talking about Ramshot TAC, 23.3 grains sounds pretty weak. Several of us here run 24.5 grains on top of Hornady bulk 55 gr FMJBTs for an excellent, mild, and VERY accurate practice load.
The other thing to look at is your headspace on your brass. You might not be getting your brass squeezed down far enough. If you don't have a headspace guage, GET ONE. I can't imagine trying to load semi auto rifle ammo without one.
The chambers are black with gum and there were some brass shavings. Maybe too much lube maybe I need to get a new sizing die.
You are talking lube for the gun, not lube for the ammo correct?
Can you tell where the brass shavings are coming from on the shell casing?
What is length the brass at, if you are trimming it? And what is the overall length of your finished round?
What type of dies are you using?
ffhounddog
09-29-08, 18:32
Ramshot XTerminator is the powder
I am using LEE Dies.
It is Lube for the Gun.
I have a Wilson Head Space Gauge and they are all meet spec.
This is what happened to me also. What I found out and I could be wrong but it cured my problem. Most loading dies are .223 remington and a sabre which is what I have also is 5.56 and the 223 is a couple of thousands longer so it won't chamber all the way in. I had the die screwed all the way down to the shell holder and it still was too long so I am fortunate to have a small hobby lathe. It would not cut the hard die so I used a dremel tool and a small grinding wheel and spun the die in the lathe and ground about .008 off of the bottom of the die. This gave me a little more room to screw the die down. I also trim my cases to 1.740 and they work fine. I also got a Dillon case gage in .223 and double check my loaded shells. I haven't had a problem since and I've loaded about 5000 shells since I shortened the die.This is what cured my problem and is only a suggestion maybe someone else can confirm this before you try it.The dies I use are the RCBS X Dies which some one else suggested.
Joe
This is what happened to me also. What I found out and I could be wrong but it cured my problem. Most loading dies are .223 remington and a sabre which is what I have also is 5.56 and the 223 is a couple of thousands longer so it won't chamber all the way in. I had the die screwed all the way down to the shell holder and it still was too long so I am fortunate to have a small hobby lathe. It would not cut the hard die so I used a dremel tool and a small grinding wheel and spun the die in the lathe and ground about .008 off of the bottom of the die. This gave me a little more room to screw the die down. I also trim my cases to 1.740 and they work fine. I also got a Dillon case gage in .223 and double check my loaded shells. I haven't had a problem since and I've loaded about 5000 shells since I shortened the die.This is what cured my problem and is only a suggestion maybe someone else can confirm this before you try it.The dies I use are the RCBS X Dies which some one else suggested.
Joe
Headspace on a .223 and a 5.56 are identical. So are max case lengths.
If you had to grind .008 off of your die before cartridges would chamber, I'd be looking to see if your chamber is cut short. You might want to try and see if your chamber will accept a GO gauge. If it does, you're OK, but if it doesn't, I'd send the barrel back to Sabre and get a new one.
Or, if you have a Stoney Point tool (now Hornady), try measuring some fired cases and see how they measure WRT headspace. If below minimums, your chamber is tight.
If the chamber checks out OK, then the problem was with your die.
A common problem when firing 5.56 mil-spec ammo in an AR15 with a SAAMI-spec .223 chamber, is that once in a while a spent primer will fall out of a case as it is extracted. Sometimes the primers fall clear and there's no problem, other times they will go under the trigger and get wedged, rendereing the rifle inoperable. I've seen some extreme cases of this where the hammer and trigger were actually hard to get out. I've seen them get wedged between the charging handle and the inside of the receiver, with the bolt out of battery, so that the gun had to have the stock removed so the bolt could be removed to clear the primer. It is not unknown for the primer anvil get stuck on the tubular portion of the carrier key! Popped primers are due in part to the tighter, shorter freebore and shorter, more abrupt throat of the .223 chamber, causing a pressure spike with the hotter, mil- spec ammo. This reamer will address these areas as well as making sure the neck diameter is not too tight or short, without changing headspace. It does not cut the shoulder or anything behind it; it stops off on the shoulder. Of course, whatever rifle you're shooting, you could just look at what's stamped on the barrel-- it might say .223, or it might say 5.56, or it might say nothing. You could call the manufacturer and ask them what chamber you have, but even if you get to talk to somebody who understands the question, they likely don't really know. They may tell you what you want to hear, but truth is, not many AR15 manufacturers make their own barrels. They buy them from someone else, so they don't really, truly know what chamber you have. Some of them will flat decline to discuss it with you.
This is what Michiguns Ltd-AR-15 Tools says about .223 and 5.56 being identical and they sell a reamer to make your .223 a 5.56 so they must not be identical.
Joe
A common problem when firing 5.56 mil-spec ammo in an AR15 with a SAAMI-spec .223 chamber, is that once in a while a spent primer will fall out of a case as it is extracted. Sometimes the primers fall clear and there's no problem, other times they will go under the trigger and get wedged, rendereing the rifle inoperable. I've seen some extreme cases of this where the hammer and trigger were actually hard to get out. I've seen them get wedged between the charging handle and the inside of the receiver, with the bolt out of battery, so that the gun had to have the stock removed so the bolt could be removed to clear the primer. It is not unknown for the primer anvil get stuck on the tubular portion of the carrier key! Popped primers are due in part to the tighter, shorter freebore and shorter, more abrupt throat of the .223 chamber, causing a pressure spike with the hotter, mil- spec ammo. This reamer will address these areas as well as making sure the neck diameter is not too tight or short, without changing headspace. It does not cut the shoulder or anything behind it; it stops off on the shoulder. Of course, whatever rifle you're shooting, you could just look at what's stamped on the barrel-- it might say .223, or it might say 5.56, or it might say nothing. You could call the manufacturer and ask them what chamber you have, but even if you get to talk to somebody who understands the question, they likely don't really know. They may tell you what you want to hear, but truth is, not many AR15 manufacturers make their own barrels. They buy them from someone else, so they don't really, truly know what chamber you have. Some of them will flat decline to discuss it with you.
This is what Michiguns Ltd-AR-15 Tools says about .223 and 5.56 being identical and they sell a reamer to make your .223 a 5.56 so they must not be identical.
Joe
The OP reports he's shooting a SD upper. Those are considered GTG. They should be 5.56.
On the off chance it isn't, I offered some troubleshooting tips for his reloads (as well as your situation).
The problem could be:
(1) His chamber. Possible, but not likely.
(2) His reloading die. The same.
(3) His reloading recipe. Given the probability that his chamber is a 5.56, I'd load right up to max from Ramshot relaoding guide and see whether or not things work. Data worked up in .223 SAAMI test barrels shouldn't cause any problems in 5.56 chambers. Charges that are too low can sometimes burn very dirty and gum things up, especially with ball powder. That might be a situation where you have to up the powder charge to hit the pressure threshold for clean burning. Just a thought.
I run 24 grains of exterminator behind a 55 grain mil surplus or 55 grain Hornady FMJ without issues. I also use CCI Military spec primers. I also run 24 grains of TAC behind surplus ss 109 62 grainers without issues.
ffhounddog
10-01-08, 08:21
I loaded 60 last night without a crimp to see if the crimp could be the cause of it.
I never had an issue with my reloads without a crimp. Just started doing it on this big batch this past Feb because well I was getting ready to move and it would be a few months until I got to set up and reload for my Rifles.
I am going to take my bushy 20 inch out as well and see if I can do it to that rifle with my crimped reloads.
toddackerman
10-01-08, 18:25
I loaded 60 last night without a crimp to see if the crimp could be the cause of it.
I never had an issue with my reloads without a crimp. Just started doing it on this big batch this past Feb because well I was getting ready to move and it would be a few months until I got to set up and reload for my Rifles.
I am going to take my bushy 20 inch out as well and see if I can do it to that rifle with my crimped reloads.
With a cannelure...you want to crimp, but a "Taper Crimp' not a "Rolled Crimp". Are you seating and taper crimping in 2 different operations??? Your seater roll crimp feature should not even touch the sides of the case mouth. If it does, back the seater die down until it doesn't and us just your seater plug to achieve the proper seating depth.
Shooting non taper crimped loads in a Semi auto (any semi auto) is not a good practice as "Set Back" on chambering can occur and lead to dangerous pressures.
One thing that might be noteworthy enough to add on this thread would be the benefits of using a small base sizer die when loading for autoloaders. Especially if the casings have been fired more than once. The small base die ensures that the web of the casing gets sized back into proper specs and can eliminate casings getting stuck during the feed cycle. They do work the brass a little more and may reduce useful case life somewhat...but in the long run they are worth the initial investment.
Something else to think about is a post cleaning of the reloaded ammo. In my experiences Die wax and case lube can gum up and cause sticky extraction.
I have had good results using Hogdon BL-C(2) Powders in the .223/5.56.
Burns relatively clean and flows through my Redding BR Powder measure like water.
Robb Jensen
10-08-08, 19:43
Headspace on a .223 and a 5.56 are identical. So are max case lengths.
jmart,
headspaces of .223 and 5.56 are very close ;)
SAAMI .223 REM GO = 1.4640"
NATO 5.56mm GO = 1.4646" to 1.4648"
SAAMI .223 REM NO-GO = 1.4670"
NATO 5.56mm NO-GO = 1.4704" to 1.4706"
SAMMI .223 REM FIELD = 1.4700"
NATO 5.56mm FIELD = 1.4728" to 1.4730"
Colts FIELD II = 1.4736"
toddackerman
10-09-08, 00:26
One thing that might be noteworthy enough to add on this thread would be the benefits of using a small base sizer die when loading for autoloaders. Especially if the casings have been fired more than once. The small base die ensures that the web of the casing gets sized back into proper specs and can eliminate casings getting stuck during the feed cycle. They do work the brass a little more and may reduce useful case life somewhat...but in the long run they are worth the initial investment.
Something else to think about is a post cleaning of the reloaded ammo. In my experiences Die wax and case lube can gum up and cause sticky extraction.
I have had good results using Hogdon BL-C(2) Powders in the .223/5.56.
Burns relatively clean and flows through my Redding BR Powder measure like water.
This is good advice although I haven't had to go to a small base sizer.
However...I totally agree with cleaning after the reloading process. Even the factories do it.
I vibratory tumble my finished loads for 10 minutes' and then lay them on a towel, fold the towel over a few times and gently shake from left to right in the towel for 50 strokes to remove any residue from the tumbler. Over 50,000 rounds without a problem.
There are those that will say this is dangerous, but they haven't talked to Winchester and Federal like I have. Both factories vibrate their loads for cleaning after the initial loading process.
They will also say that has a negative effect on the powder. To that I say..."No more than all the vibration the rounds get from here to Iraq"!
Smokeless Powder is much more robust and resilient than many give it credit for.
There are those that will say this is dangerous
That myth will never die.
You could tumble live ammo for a week and it'd be fine.
MarshallDodge
10-09-08, 11:01
It sounds to me like you are not completely sizing the brass and the cases are a little long. Make sure your die is tight against the shellholder. On my RCBS die I had to take a little off the top of the shellholder with some sandpaper to get the brass completely sized. It would not chamber in my Rem 700 or AR until I did this.
A case gauge is your friend: Link (http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/catid/3/pid/23612/_223_Dillon_Stainless_Steel_Case_Gage)
You can use it to measure your brass before you load it.
I tumble, lube, size, and deprime my cases then wash them in a liquid brass cleaner from this recipe:
1 gallon of water
1/2 cup of white vinegar
2 tbsp of lemon juice
1 tbsp of powdered laundry detergent. You may want to add more or less depending on the lube you are using.
After they are dry, I run them through the tumbler again and the brass comes out like shiny new. I inspect the cases and check the primer flash holes then I put the brass in ziploc bags ready to be loaded.
The issue with RCBS Dies not properly sizing is the reason I quit using RCBS back in the days when I was deeply into Varmint Rifles and Benchrest.
I switched over to Redding Dies, Presses and Powder Measures and have never looked back or been disappointed with them at all.
Other than the Wilson Hand Dies I used in my Bench guns..I have been buying and using Redding Products which have proven to be of excellent quality and have provided great accuracy with my reloads.
They cost a litle more but are worth the extra few dollars in the long run.
After they are dry, I run them through the tumbler again and the brass comes out like shiny new.
Why not just skip the wash and run them directly back into the tumbler?
MarshallDodge
10-10-08, 10:23
Why not just skip the wash and run them directly back into the tumbler?
The washing is not a necessary step and I may be sounding a little anal but I really like the results. :D
The issue I have had with that is on random cases the dust in the media tends to stick to some of the lube and leaves black spots on the cases. For some reason it doesn't do it on all the cases, maybe 1 out of 5. If I run fresh clean media the problem is not as bad.
The other reason I like to wash them after sizing is that it helps clean the carbon out of the primer pockets. The tumbling after that hits the pockets again.
I see. So you do get some more carbon out of the brass.
Someone made the point here that... Tumbling the brass with all the lube on it shortens the life of your media. I think there's something to that. When the media gets heavy and has absorbed a bunch of case lube it loses its speed. It literally moves slower in the tumbler which kills the efficiency of the cleaning process.
I could see this quite dramatically when I changed out my last batch of media. The old stuff wasn't cleaning worth a crap. I could literally see a significant improvement in media flow with the new, clean stuff.
Are you using Corn Cob or Walnut Hull Media in your tumbler?
Not sure who you're asking... but if it's me... I use walnut. The lizard stuff from the pet store.
Be careful w/pet store sourced corn cob media. Some of it is pretty big and will plug up a .223 case very quickly. Digging it out sux. Ask me how I know......
Is what I use...I add a dolop of Flitz Metal Polish to the media every other use and media life doesn't seem to be a real issue.
I have even heard of shooters drying out damp/clumped used media on newspaper spread out on a garage floor and gaining a few more uses out of it this way?
MarshallDodge
10-11-08, 00:20
I use corn cob media with Midway polish or Turtle Wax. Once every couple cycles I will throw in pieces of a dryer sheet to collect the dust. It also makes the brass smell spring fresh! :D
Years ago when I was a poor kid getting started in reloading I tried washing used corn cob media. It definitely brought it back to life but the mess of washing it and getting it to dry out was not worth the hassle.
One of the guys on 1911auto.org swears by white rice as a tumbling media. I am sure he is using it on 45ACP cases because I asked about using it on bottleneck cases and never got an answer.
One of the guys on 1911auto.org swears by white rice as a tumbling media. I am sure he is using it on 45ACP cases because I asked about using it on bottleneck cases and never got an answer.
I don't see why it wouldn't work on bottlenecked casings...Funny you mentioned this as I had thought about trying Cornmeal once upon a time. As it is finer and perhaps wouldn't fill up flash holes...the one issue I couldn't think of a solution to was the dust. I like the antistatic dryer sheet idea and may try it when the time comes to change out my media next.
I used to use rice, long ago. It worked fine but is expensive compared to buying bulk crushed wal-nut. And it tends to get stuck in primer pockets depending on what sort of rice you are using.
Chad
You can buy crushed walnut in 50lb bags for about $20 a bag, plus or minus (depending on your market) at sandblasting supply stores. 12-20 is the regular sized grit and 20-40 is the finer stuff. Walnut from a sandblasting supply store tends to have lest dust than the walnut from the pet store or feed store.
Supposedly feed stores are also a great place for Walnut
Walnut from a sandblasting supply store tends to have lest dust than the walnut from the pet store or feed store.
There's a brown layer of dust on and around my tumbler right now! :D
There's a brown layer of dust on and around my tumbler right now! :D
Is this sandblasting walnut or feedstore/petstore walnut?
Just wondering
Chad
Lizard stuff.
OK, yeah, KATY or whatever brand tends to have a lot of dust. If you can find a sand blasting supply outfit in your area try them -- less dust and usually about 35-50% the cost of the pet store stuff.
I might do that next time I need to resupply.
ffhounddog
06-25-09, 07:25
I found out what I was doing wrong.
I was not sizing all the way. I thought I was at the time. I was sitting not standing.
Started standing and saw that I could see brass at the bottom.
I unfotuently still have some of them primed so I will have to use those as a last resort. I have more primers. I saw this when I was preping some brass this spring. Basically if I have not primed the brass they are getting rezied. I only have 4-500 pieces of brass that are affected so that is good. I have more brass just need to get to reloading.
ffh
Problem was it was in my go no go gauge but it was kinda tight. I resized 10 other pieces of brass and it was good to go nice and loose and kinda sticky.
I use Small Based Dies for all my Semi-Auto Cartridges to eliminate the posibility of hangups due to expansion of the casings web.
I would also try some different powder. Accurate 2230 is THE best for 223/5.56 in my opinion, but it is scarce to find. If you do find it, buy all they will let you. Wideners reloading just got 8lb jugs in stock and it goes very quick 118.00 for 8lbs. You will get about 2000 + rounds a jug depending on your loads.
OldNavyGuy
07-03-09, 09:37
Lizard stuff.
is that "Lizard stuff" walnut ? got a brand name ? and/or a place to buy it ? are you in the Phoenix area ?
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