View Full Version : Iconoclasm & Southern Confederate Monuments
http://wkrn.com/2017/05/20/in-new-orleans-confederate-monuments-are-gone/
I was surprised to see no thread about this very significant news in the latest assault in the ongoing war on Southern history and White identity.
Discuss.
NEW ORLEANS (AP) — They were among the city’s oldest landmarks, as cemented to the landscape of New Orleans as the Superdome and St. Louis Cathedral: a stone obelisk heralding white supremacy and three statues of Confederate stalwarts.
But after decades standing sentinel over this Southern city, the Confederate monuments are gone, amid a controversy that at times hearkened back to the divisiveness of the Civil War they commemorated.
The last of the monuments — a statue of Gen. Robert E. Lee facing defiantly north with his arms crossed — was lifted by a crane from its pedestal late Friday. As air was seen between Lee’s statue and the pedestal below it, a cheer went out from the crowd who recorded the history with their phones and shook hands with each other in congratulations. Many in the crowd had waited since morning.
Southern born, bred, and raised. Unless you grew up in the South, during certain time periods, no way one can understand. I grew up with Southern Civil War Generals and famous participants as heroes; just the same as Francis Marion, George Washington, etc. Not a racist element to it. It was all about heritage and honoring my family that fought and died during the War of Northern Aggression. Went to a HS that was 84% minority. Really did have black friends. My feelings and Rebel flag were well known; zero issues b/c they understood where I was coming from as well as the fact I was true friends with multiple black guys and it was also well known I had crushed on a black girl for a while. mf&%$@&^*** she was fine! Contrary to the popular narrative of the South, there were free black men in the South during slavery and there were black men that fought for the Confederacy. Not saying it was all unicorns and rainbows, but in small towns, the black families that were productive and good, just like any white, were looked upon favorably. Still had to be segregated, but generally were left alone. Same for Jews. Ask me how I know. This is a very complex issue that is hard to comprehend unless you lived it. It sure as shit wasn't streets paved with gold paradise for minorities, but it also hasn't been portrayed accurately in the narrative. For some, absolute hell on earth. But not for all. The South was exceedingly closed for some, but the narrative suggests it was for all.
Heritage not hate.
brickboy240
05-24-17, 11:07
Some of our northern viewers might shrug their shoulders or say "get over it" to those mourning the removal of the Confederate statues. Others that are not very religious probably blew off the removal of the 10 Commandments or a Nativity Scene from a courthouse grounds.
Well..what makes you think they are going to stop with the removal of a few statues in red states? Before too long, we will hear call for the removal of statues of Jefferson, Washington and others. Laugh all you want...but I am pretty sure this is coming. That is always how this type of action goes...they will eventually call for the removal of something YOU like, admire or cherish.
It's touchy, and I get it. I too was born and raised in the south; my great grandfather fought for NC in the Civil War. But for most people it is too difficult to extract the history from the heritage a la the Nazi flag or Soviet flag. I am ambivalent. What I don't like is the vilifying of it when at this point it (and the statues in New Orleans) can be so crucial for education; and the removal of all of those things just serve to make people feel good and eradicate history.
Averageman
05-24-17, 11:28
If you think it is going to stop because they run out of CSA Generals, you're dead wrong.
They've got their foot in the door and are rewriting history. Washington, Franklin, Revere and Jefferson will soon follow.
Appeasing the hurt feelings of the failed unwashed and uneducated masses wont stop here.
Well, I'm about as "Northern" as it gets. But it seems to me that we have an obligation to TRY to understand what happened, why it happened, and to learn from it. Just watched "Band of Brothers" again recently, and an elderly Shifty Powers observed that under different circumstances the Germans he fought might have become his friends. Hal Moore of "We Were Soldiers" made several trips to Vietnam to meet and become friends with his Ia Drang opponents. And just the other day I found this: http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/above-and-beyond-my-enemy-my-friend-57179945/
The fools and vandals currently destroying monuments to men who did their duty according to their lights--however that was--are pathetic and unfit to live in a civilized society.
Which raises a question of whether this IS a "civilized society" any more...
Voodoochild
05-24-17, 12:04
Tread lightly.
If you think it is going to stop because they run out of CSA Generals, you're dead wrong.
They've got their foot in the door and are rewriting history. Washington, Franklin, Revere and Jefferson will soon follow.
Appeasing the hurt feelings of the failed unwashed and uneducated masses wont stop here.
Accepting revisionism of any kind is a green light for tyranny. The thought police aka SJW aka White Guilt Committee, etc, will certainly not stop, as you've said. It has already happened overseas:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Must_Fall
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jan/15/oxford-students-cecil-rhodes-statue-removed
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jan/28/cecil-rhodes-statue-will-not-be-removed--oxford-university
Although it seems cooler heads prevailed in the end, the fact that such a movement can gain so much traction is truly frightening.
Accepting revisionism of any kind is a green light for tyranny. The thought police aka SJW aka White Guilt Committee, etc, will certainly not stop, as you've said. It has already happened overseas:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Must_Fall
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jan/15/oxford-students-cecil-rhodes-statue-removed
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jan/28/cecil-rhodes-statue-will-not-be-removed--oxford-university
Although it seems cooler heads prevailed in the end, the fact that such a movement can gain so much traction is truly frightening.
If those Twat Waffles were smart enough to get into Oxford, how in the hell do I not have a full scholarship there?
RetroRevolver77
05-24-17, 13:29
Wait till they start taking all the old Presidents off the money because they were slave owners. This country is fast becoming some Orwellian PC nightmare.
Wait till they start taking all the old Presidents off the money because they were slave owners. This country is fast becoming some Orwellian PC nightmare.
Trust me, they're working overtime on it. Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers are openly derided. I'm a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and Sons of the American Revolution so I'm sure it will be obvious where I stand on the subject. As the old saying goes, those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Erasing what essentially is a Second War for Independence is not the answer, but something they want to bury and hide. They know there are those of us that we won't "conform", so they keep up their attempts in erasing our southern heritage and pride in the name of politically correct. Once they erase the history, and a few more generations aren't given the opportunity to learn about said history, then they will have succeeded in their goal. Renaming parks, dormitories, and streets, removing monuments, etc... does nothing but deride the sacrifice ALL Americans made during the Civil War.
It never ceases to amaze me about how much they want to erase from our history. When we forget where we came from, what we stand for, and let them erase our heritage and history, then we are surely be doomed as a nation. Just two cents from someone who is proud of his heritage, and his forefathers contributions to our great nation. Freedom in this nation is doomed, and has been for many years now. It's just a matter of time.
Averageman
05-24-17, 14:36
We were doomed as soon as we erased Civics/Citizenship and Government from High School curriculum and replaced it with a pc version of revisionist history and that as an elective.
When I left, every morning began with a ten minute civics course taught by the people from (I shit you not) MTV.
Substitute Teaching should be like Jury Duty, if you saw what goes on in your local High School you would hang those on your School Board.
History and heritage is one thing, hate is another. As a Northern boy, even I understand that the statues pay homage to American Heroes and are of historical significance. They should remain in place
The problem is when fools (on both sides) start talking about them as symbols of white identity.
Regarding the flag, they (the Confederacy as a whole) lost. They remained Americans. As a result, that flag has as much business flying over state offices or buildings as any other identity flag has flying over any other state office or building - which is none, period, paragraph.
What individuals do regarding the Stars and Bars is their thing. The statutes need to be left alone until a majority of folks in the town - as in a vote - want them down.
SeriousStudent
05-24-17, 18:02
Tread lightly.
Agreed.
Civil war threads never end well here. Before you post, decide if it's going to be worth the time off.
I wonder how many of these ignorant fools know that Robert E. Lee was the "hero of Vera Cruz" long before there was a CSA?
Here is how much our country has changed in my lifetime. For Halloween at my Kindergarten in 1963 (I was four years old, do the math), my costume was Johnny Rebel, as the TV series "The Rebel" with Nick Adams was still being shown in re-runs. So, Confederate uniform, Confederate battle flag, plastic Colt 1851 in flap holster, and trailing a large cannon that shot plastic cannon balls. This was in southeastern PA, so not even in "the South". Today I would be sent home for several violations, suspended, or probably expelled, and teachers, and students would probably pee their pants. We have become a nation hell bent on PC bullshit led by the media, education, and the Democrats. All liberal/progressive, statists.
Oh yeah, my costume would probably have contributed to "man made climate change" also. :rolleyes:
History and heritage is one thing, hate is another. As a Northern boy, even I understand that the statues pay homage to American Heroes and are of historical significance. They should remain in place
The problem is when fools (on both sides) start talking about them as symbols of white identity.
Regarding the flag, they (the Confederacy as a whole) lost. They remained Americans. As a result, that flag has as much business flying over state offices or buildings as any other identity flag has flying over any other state office or building - which is none, period, paragraph.
What individuals do regarding the Stars and Bars is their thing. The statutes need to be left alone until a majority of folks in the town - as in a vote - want them down.
That's the thing about it. The Civil War wasn't fought over "hate", "white supremacy", etc..., and I'll leave it at that. Hate is what the liberal intelligentsia wants us to believe (vehemently I might add) that the Confederate symbols represent. Hate and white supremacy are not represented by the Stars and Bars, just as hate and white supremacy had absolutely nothing to do with the seccession of the Southern states. That's what they want us to believe though.
If someone looks on a statue of Stonewall Jackson, Robert E. Lee (Mexican American War as previously noted), Joseph Wheeler (Spanish American War I might add), etc... and sees nothing but "hate" and "white supremacy" then there is absolutely no help for them, or us a nation for that matter. The Stars and Bars were never used by the Confederacy as a symbol of hate. That perception (lie) has been perpetrated by those who don't want us to show and honor our heritage.
History and heritage is one thing, hate is another. As a Northern boy, even I understand that the statues pay homage to American Heroes and are of historical significance. They should remain in place
I agree.
And you don't have to be from the south to see how ridiculous all of this is. It sickens me that there's not only people demanding these statues be removed but also that there's people conforming to it.
Time to bulldoze Stone Mountain. I surprised it's still standing, especially given its ties to the KKK.
And I suppose Washington & Jefferson on Mt Rushmore will have to be replaced with Obama & Clinton too. [emoji57]
Where will this ever end?
My only tie to the South is my wife; half Cajun and her family has been in Louisiana since the late 1790's. Lots of her ancestors fought for the South, including Harrison's 3rd Louisiana Cavalry. Went down there in April for a family wedding and the Confederate Monument talk was all over local radio. Several callers mentioned the fact that many of the old Plantation Homes are historic monuments, and some on the National Register of Historic Places. These Southern Plantations were made functional by slaves and you can still see some of the preserved shacks they used as homes. One historic Plantation I have been to was a Slave Breeding facility near St. Francisville, LA.
The callers to the radio station were wondering if the next step is to demolish these historic homes? They fear the total erasure of history, whether pretty or not. To me it's like book burning. Eradicate anything that reminds you of a period of history or event that conflicts with a special interest group and their thinking.
It's not that way out here. Take for example the Spanish Explorer, Juan de Oņate . In New Mexico he was a brutal Indian killer, yet now there are schools named after him and monuments. The Indians here in this State don't like it, or anything about Oņate, but they are not taking down monuments or changing the name of schools.
Ryno, if the left and PC crowd has their way this will never end until they have stamped out anything remotely "offensive" to them.
I'm from Idaho originally. My time in the South was spent in Texas but even then, I can understand the difference between Civil War era heroes and heritage and the hate that I feel has been pushed out as the cause of the war. I strongly disagree with the tearing down of the Confederate monuments. It is very important to remember that part of American history.
I am a little unhappy with Seattle's statue of Lenin. That really pisses me off.
For me, the statue or monument allows for discussion and open analysis of that person's life. It stimulates thinking, and allows all to come to their own conclusions. Removing the statue or monument dumbs down the population and limits discussion. If a history class in New Mexico takes the students on a field trip and they see the statue of Juan de Oņate, the teacher can present facts, but let the students form their own opinions as to that historic figure's deeds in life. Placing a time reference to when that person lived and the situation surrounding their good or bad behavior also stimulates thinking.
For me, the statue or monument allows for discussion and open analysis of that person's life. It stimulates thinking, and allows all to come to their own conclusions. Removing the statue or monument dumbs down the population and limits discussion. If a history class in New Mexico takes the students on a field trip and they see the statue of Juan de Oņate, the teacher can present facts, but let the students form their own opinions as to that historic figure's deeds in life. Placing a time reference to when that person lived and the situation surrounding their good or bad behavior also stimulates thinking.
Well said.
That's the thing about it. The Civil War wasn't fought over "hate", "white supremacy", etc..., and I'll leave it at that. Hate is what the liberal intelligentsia wants us to believe (vehemently I might add) that the Confederate symbols represent. Hate and white supremacy are not represented by the Stars and Bars, just as hate and white supremacy had absolutely nothing to do with the seccession of the Southern states. That's what they want us to believe though.
If someone looks on a statue of Stonewall Jackson, Robert E. Lee (Mexican American War as previously noted), Joseph Wheeler (Spanish American War I might add), etc... and sees nothing but "hate" and "white supremacy" then there is absolutely no help for them, or us a nation for that matter. The Stars and Bars were never used by the Confederacy as a symbol of hate. That perception (lie) has been perpetrated by those who don't want us to show and honor our heritage.
RazorBurn - I'm going to try to tread carefully as Serious Student pointed out the need to do so.
In the years after the end of the American Civil War, many former slave states that were members of the Confederacy during the war adopted new state flags. Incorporating in their new flags' designs were motifs that were used in the Confederacy's flags, such as the St. Andrew's cross. In the case of Mississippi, Florida, and Alabama, these new state flags were adopted around the same time that new Jim Crow segregation laws were being enacted. These laws, combined with poll taxes, literacy tests, and extrajudicial violence such as lynchings, disenfranchised African American voters for the next several decades.
The flag changes in Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida coincided with the passage of formal Jim Crow segregation laws throughout the South. Four years before Mississippi incorporated a Confederate battle flag into its state flag, its constitutional convention passed pioneering provisions to 'reform' politics by effectively disenfranchising most African Americans. — John M. Coski, The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem (2005), pp. 80–81.
It is also noteworthy that SC began flying the Battle Flag over the Capital in 1961, reportedly as a kick-off to the Centennial Year of the Civil War. It remained, most believe as a thumb to the nose toward the Federal Government and the Civil Rights Movement, until 2000.
Obviously no one publicly said 'Hey lets change the State Flag and put Confederate stuff on it, that'll show them.....' and 'He let's fly that flag over the Capital to show those.......they aren't going to push us around' but let's not be obtuse.
Unfortunately, the Star and Bars have been, in many cases co-opted by folks for hate like reasons.
Also unfortunately, at this point the folks I see in my area (North) running around with Confederate Flags look like they are on their way to pick up their welfare checks, booze and cigarettes. Not the best and brightest America has to offer.
As I said earlier...the statues pay homage to American Heroes and are of historical significance. They should remain in place.
Flags on Government buildings, not so much.
RazorBurn - I'm going to try to tread carefully as Serious Student pointed out the need to do so.
Flags on Government buildings, not so much.
I can understand the thoughts and feelings about no Stars and Bars on government buildings, and could almost accept that if it ended there. It doesn't though, and herein lies my issue(s). It's no different than gun control. They take something away, then it's something else, and then something after that. It never ever ever ends. So, they've removed flags from government buildings, but are they happy with that? Nope. Now they're removing statues, and renaming parks and dormitories. It's a slow but steady eradication of the history of our nation, and their endgame is no different than what gun control groups want from us law abiding gun owning citizens. All while they're wearing Che Guevara or Malcom X shirts.
Moose-Knuckle
05-25-17, 03:19
Revisionist history.
So if we "erase" the monuments of the CSA does that mean slavery never existed?
I think this is a can the PC practitioners will wish they had never opened one day. Let's just start covering anything we don't like from our history with a magic wand of PC correction fluid.
If you think it is going to stop because they run out of CSA Generals, you're dead wrong.
They've got their foot in the door and are rewriting history. Washington, Franklin, Revere and Jefferson will soon follow.
Appeasing the hurt feelings of the failed unwashed and uneducated masses wont stop here.
they have already started to do that on some of the WIKI articles !!!!!
sadly agree this is a foot in the door but its been happening for a while now and nobody is doing anything ?
just like the Nazi being a small % that took over and look where that went and yeah to those that think I am nuts for calling the left nazis well the left are Nazi same ideology and everything
ask them why a black man was the first registered slave owner and they say NO WAY
true % of slave owners was so small but they think EVERYONE owned them
when you mention other parts of the world they disagree we were the only ones doing it !
when you mention that whites were also slaves and many blacks owned slaves you are just a racist and a liar to them ?
its pretty sad how much we have slid in education in the world and our country
ask them why a black man was the first registered slave owner and they say NO WAY
true % of slave owners was so small but they think EVERYONE owned them
when you mention other parts of the world they disagree we were the only ones doing it !
Very true. One interesting side note to Louisiana history is the story of the Reverend Joseph Willis. He was a mulatto Baptist Minister from South Carolina and the son and grandson of slavery. Right around 1802 he led a dozen or more families of 1/2 black or greater people from South Carolina into eastern Louisiana and St. Landry Parish. These families eventually moved northwest into Rapides Parish and into SW Louisiana and East Texas. Large numbers of them still exist today and they have been given the slang identifier of "Redbone". Most have DNA still showing 3% to 6% Black, with roots in West Africa. The early census records of Louisiana identify them as "Mulatto" and some actually owned slaves, but it was mostly the ones of that group who moved to Texas in the 1840's.
One interesting fact as well about the Reverend Joseph Willis is that he was the first Baptist Minister west of the Mississippi River.
History and heritage is one thing, hate is another. As a Northern boy, even I understand that the statues pay homage to American Heroes and are of historical significance. They should remain in place
The problem is when fools (on both sides) start talking about them as symbols of white identity.
The problem is the people that most often perpetuate that latter view are often the very ones that want to remove the monuments. Rich White Liberals and Black race advocates. The business plan is tear down the monument and build a slavery museum. IOW, turn the reality of the lives of individual men and women into a situation that is viewed and learned to be a race against race situation. Honestly I don't think the RWL even know what they are doing in their efforts to be so kind and understanding. Pretty sure they do it just so they can pat themselves on the back.
Bubba FAL
I wonder how many of these ignorant fools know that Robert E. Lee was the "hero of Vera Cruz" long before there was a CSA?
You mean he hated Mexican's too!?!? SOB... that's the last straw... he's got to go.
Averageman
05-25-17, 10:48
So we are going to tear down the statues, remove the flags and what is next remove the written history and burn the books?
That really hasn't worked so well in the past for people who made that decision.
The open exchange of ideas and opposing opinion were required to found our Nation. Being offended by History, the open exchange of information and facts do not make you free, they only set you up to be ruled by a Dictator.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
05-25-17, 12:10
I have no love for racists, slave holders, etc. BUT, revisionist history is despicable and ought to be the only thing we rid ourselves of.
So we are going to tear down the statues, remove the flags and what is next remove the written history and burn the books?
That really hasn't worked so well in the past for people who made that decision.
The open exchange of ideas and opposing opinion were required to found our Nation. Being offended by History, the open exchange of information and facts do not make you free, they only set you up to be ruled by a Dictator.
again its happening and the WIKI is one way they are rewriting since its far left controlled and more used than anything else to fact check these days
there are things in there already that were not true
look up who controls our school books now ! when the muslim brotherhood influences what is taught in our schools as one small example of influence and who is in control that allows it !
its again already happening and many are fighting but many are not !
again its happening and the WIKI is one way they are rewriting since its far left controlled and more used than anything else to fact check these days
there are things in there already that were not true
look up who controls our school books now ! when the muslim brotherhood influences what is taught in our schools as one small example of influence and who is in control that allows it !
its again already happening and many are fighting but many are not !
So it's possible that within 50-100 years, our textbooks will show a painting of Martha Custis Washington (1731-1802) wearing one of those full length beekeeper outfits (Burqa)?
So it's possible that within 50-100 years, our textbooks will show a painting of Martha Custis Washington (1731-1802) wearing one of those full length beekeeper outfits (Burqa)?
I don't know about Martha, but from what I remember from school book photos, Mary Todd Lincoln could benefit from one...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Digital_Damage
05-25-17, 13:59
We tore Sadam's shit down why do the same to a bunch of traitors?
We tore Sadam's shit down why do the same to a bunch of traitors?
Because they're totally the same thing.
We tore Sadam's shit down why do the same to a bunch of traitors?
Robert E. Lee (really the only one I know anything about) was not a traitor. He was a distinguished American Army officer, who ultimately joined with the Confederacy because he couldn't bear raising arms against his home. It was a rough time for men like Lee.
Lee's story is one that speaks to conflicting loyalties and ethical dilemma's, it would be most appropriate for teenagers and young adults to weigh the decisions he had to make and understand why he made them. That alone gives him significance in history.
JMO
Digital_Damage
05-25-17, 15:16
Robert E. Lee (really the only one I know anything about) was not a traitor. He was a distinguished American Army officer, who ultimately joined with the Confederacy because he couldn't bear raising arms against his home. It was a rough time for men like Lee.
Lee's story is one that speaks to conflicting loyalties and ethical dilemma's, it would be most appropriate for teenagers and young adults to weigh the decisions he had to make and understand why he made them. That alone gives him significance in history.
JMO
Strange definition for not being a traitor...
Did he or did he not raise arms against the United States of America? Excuses are just that excuses, Manning and Snowden have a ton as well. They made their choice and the repercussions should reflect that.
Strange definition for not being a traitor...
Did he or did he not raise arms against the United States of America? Excuses are just that excuses, Manning and Snowden have a ton as well. They made their choice and the repercussions should reflect that.
So I guess you feel the same way about George Washington?
Digital_Damage
05-25-17, 15:54
So I guess you feel the same way about George Washington?
Do I feel that way? No, I'm not a British national.
Strange definition for not being a traitor...
Did he or did he not raise arms against the United States of America? Excuses are just that excuses, Manning and Snowden have a ton as well. They made their choice and the repercussions should reflect that.
Lee's loyalty lied more with his home state of Virginia than the North or the South. When it kicked off it truly was a war of the rights of the state vs. the growing power of the government. You're looking at this through a black and white lens. The reality is the Civil War was many, many shades of grey.
So I guess you feel the same way about George Washington?
I'm sure he feels the same way about Joe Wheeler too...
Strange definition for not being a traitor...
Did he or did he not raise arms against the United States of America? Excuses are just that excuses, Manning and Snowden have a ton as well. They made their choice and the repercussions should reflect that.
have you or have you not ever broken the law even in the smallest sense ! like going over the speed limit then you are a criminal !
new laws new ways of life are dumped onto you ! so lets say gun laws are enacted where you must register and are only allowed one hand gun and one long gun both can hold no more than 5 rounds all others must be turned in
and you must teach your kids about gay sex and how its good for them to experiment !
you are not allowed to own any vehicle that gets less than 30 MPG and is not part hybrid !
will you comply ! if not you are a traitor !
if anything one can say they were true patriots wanting states to have ultimate authority over themselves like the fathers wanted in many ways !
to fight against the larger gov forcing what they want on other states !
slavery was involved and of course anyone is against that these days but it was the world wide norm in those times and slowly going away ! and yeah they wanted to hold onto it sadly along with other things cause this was not all over slavery like many want to make it out to be !
if guns go away in the near future will you want to go down in history as the traitor that would not let go of your right to self protection
Digital_Damage
05-25-17, 16:14
Lee's loyalty lied more with his home state of Virginia than the North or the South. When it kicked off it truly was a war of the rights of the state vs. the growing power of the government. You're looking at this through a black and white lens. The reality is the Civil War was many, many shades of grey.
Just more excuses, cause and effect. he made his choice, and chose poorly.
You cant excuse someone's crime simply because there was a perceived gray area.
Digital_Damage
05-25-17, 16:16
have you or have you not ever broken the law even in the smallest sense ! like going over the speed limit then you are a criminal !
new laws new ways of life are dumped onto you ! so lets say gun laws are enacted where you must register and are only allowed one hand gun and one long gun both can hold no more than 5 rounds all others must be turned in
and you must teach your kids about gay sex and how its good for them to experiment !
you are not allowed to own any vehicle that gets less than 30 MPG and is not part hybrid !
will you comply ! if not you are a traitor !
if anything one can say they were true patriots wanting states to have ultimate authority over themselves like the fathers wanted in many ways !
to fight against the larger gov forcing what they want on other states !
slavery was involved and of course anyone is against that these days but it was the world wide norm in those times and slowly going away ! and yeah they wanted to hold onto it sadly along with other things cause this was not all over slavery like many want to make it out to be !
if guns go away in the near future will you want to go down in history as the traitor that would not let go of your right to self protection
dafaq? Speeding = treason? I have paid my price for speeding, this is his price for treason
Just more excuses, cause and effect. he made his choice, and chose poorly.
You cant excuse someone's crime simply because there was a perceived gray area.
What you are failing to understand is that just because they lost does not mean that they were wrong, not even close.
Strange definition for not being a traitor...
Did he or did he not raise arms against the United States of America? Excuses are just that excuses, Manning and Snowden have a ton as well. They made their choice and the repercussions should reflect that.
From the Declaration of Independence. You either believe in it, or you don't. Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one. ;)
...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness
In my opinion, he raised arms against a tyrannical federal government that wanted to take away Southern rights and way of life without any type of compensation. The federal government ignored the consent of the governed, and the Confederate States of America were well within their rights in their attempt to peacefully secede from the Union. Lincoln was the cause of the secession, and the cause of the war. Lincoln even went against the efforts of his Secretary of State Seward who admittedly tried very hard for a peaceful settlement to prevent secession and war.
I wonder how many of those who feel the Confederates are traitors would feel if .gov big brother came and took their property (car, land, etc...) without cause and compensation? Where some see a traitor, I see someone fighting for their rights and no different than those who served in the Continental Army against the British government and their tyrannical rule.
Averageman
05-25-17, 17:06
From the Declaration of Independence. You either believe in it, or you don't. Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one. ;)
In my opinion, he raised arms against a tyrannical federal government that wanted to take away Southern rights and way of life without any type of compensation. The federal government ignored the consent of the governed, and the Confederate States of America were well within their rights in their attempt to peacefully secede from the Union. Lincoln was the cause of the secession, and the cause of the war. Lincoln even went against the efforts of his Secretary of State Seward who admittedly tried very hard for a peaceful settlement to prevent secession and war.
I wonder how many of those who feel the Confederates are traitors would feel if .gov big brother came and took their property (car, land, etc...) without cause and compensation? Where some see a traitor, I see someone fighting for their rights and no different than those who served in the Continental Army against the British government and their tyrannical rule.
Well written and thought provoking.
Thanks
LowSpeed_HighDrag
05-25-17, 17:17
From the Declaration of Independence. You either believe in it, or you don't. Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one. ;)
In my opinion, he raised arms against a tyrannical federal government that wanted to take away Southern rights and way of life without any type of compensation. The federal government ignored the consent of the governed, and the Confederate States of America were well within their rights in their attempt to peacefully secede from the Union. Lincoln was the cause of the secession, and the cause of the war. Lincoln even went against the efforts of his Secretary of State Seward who admittedly tried very hard for a peaceful settlement to prevent secession and war.
I wonder how many of those who feel the Confederates are traitors would feel if .gov big brother came and took their property (car, land, etc...) without cause and compensation? Where some see a traitor, I see someone fighting for their rights and no different than those who served in the Continental Army against the British government and their tyrannical rule.
I certainly hope that when you finished writing that, you dropped the mic and walked away from the computer. Well done!
This is a Theodore Dalrymple quote and is as relevant to these revisionist times as ever,
" In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade
or convince, not to inform but to humiliate; and therefore the less it corresponded to reality the better.
When people are forced to remain silent when they are being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced
to repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of probity.
To assent to obvious lies is ..... in some small way to become evil oneself; one's standing to resist anything is thus corroded,
and even destroyed.
A society of emasculated liars is easy to control.
I think if you examine political correctness, it has the same effect and is intended to. "
We are watching the incremental destruction of all we hold dear !
dafaq? Speeding = treason? I have paid my price for speeding, this is his price for treason
did I say treason NO !!!!
do not change what I said :)
[/QUOTE]
Well..what makes you think they are going to stop with the removal of a few statues in red states? Before too long, we will hear call for the removal of statues of Jefferson, Washington and others. Laugh all you want...but I am pretty sure this is coming. That is always how this type of action goes...they will eventually call for the removal of something YOU like, admire or cherish.[/QUOTE]
Slippery slope fallacy.
What a lot of people don't realize is that many of these monuments did not materalize until the civil rights era came about. Nobody gave a damn before then. It's pretty clear much of the confederate flag waiving, monument building was a middle finger to blacks in the 60s.
We absolutely need to pay respects to that part of our history, to all the Americans who died in the war. But we don't need to glorify the confederacy. It's a fine line. The good guys won in the end. Lets move on.
I think stuff like this has us already sliding down the slope quite nicely.
With Confederate flags gone, Civil War museum will close
http://www.ajc.com/news/local/with-confederate-flags-gone-civil-war-museum-will-close/ogScTPPdqliC0z4opJ3GTI/
My only problem with the whole mess is that the nola mayor & a 1/2 dozen elected officials voted to remove historic pieces that have stood over 100 years without any vote from the people or even going through the courts?? Slavery was only a portion of what the civil war was about...Lee was the Union's first choice to lead, but when Virginia went with the south he couldn't abandon his beloved state, & state rights is really what the whole ugly mess was about but it's being watered down.
The actions of the nola mayor & councilmen were more aligned with tyrants than public servants...how could the citizens of nola be left out of this equation & not have a voice?? Here you have a lame duck mayor leading the charge to try & erase history all on his own?? To me, this is really the sad part of it all.
Digital_Damage
05-25-17, 18:27
did I say treason NO !!!!
do not change what I said :)
Ya.... that does not help any. No idea WTF you are trying to say...
My only problem with the whole mess is that the nola mayor & a 1/2 dozen elected officials voted to remove historic pieces that have stood over 100 years without any vote from the people or even going through the courts?? Slavery was only a portion of what the civil war was about...Lee was the Union's first choice to lead, but when Virginia went with the south he couldn't abandon his beloved state, & state rights is really what the whole ugly mess was about but it's being watered down.
The actions of the nola mayor & councilmen were more aligned with tyrants than public servants...how could the citizens of nola be left out of this equation & not have a voice?? Here you have a lame duck mayor leading the charge to try & erase history all on his own?? To me, this is really the sad part of it all.
You hit the nail squarely on the head, sir. Elected officials serve the people, not the other way around.
We the people's voices are no longer heard.
SeriousStudent
05-25-17, 18:41
And we are done.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.