View Full Version : Rifle butt not in the shoulder while shooting?
Can someone explain the benefit of firing a rifle with your cheek on a pistol butt stock, but the butt of the rifle not braced against your shoulder?
I'm just researching (watching youtube vids), so I see this guy fire a BCM 300 blk like this and the rifle is all over the place.
Is this common for SBR's, why?
For awhile, it was considered illegal to shoulder the arm brace of a pistol. I know of no advantage to just cheeking an AR over shouldering it
Some folks believe that if you shoulder the pistol stock rather than cheek-welding it you may be violating the law.
My stamp came in several months ago, so I'm not versed on what the final disposition is, this was where it stood as far as I know:
SB Tactical shared a new determination letter Tuesday that had been issued by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to clarify any confusion regarding shouldering the company’s “stabilizing brace.”
Shouldering a firearm equipped with a barrel less than 16 inches and an arm brace would make it an unregistered National Firearm Act item, ATF says in the letter dated March 21, adding that it continues to “stand by those conclusions.”
But “incidental, sporadic, or situational” use of a firearm equipped with an arm brace “in its original approved configuration” at or near the shoulder would not constitute a redesign nor make it an NFA item, ATF says.
Long story short, it aeems to me that you wouldn't want to post youtube videos of yourself using an AR pistol shouldered.
Someone else probably knows more, there was a lot of controversy over the various ATF letters.
jackblack73
05-28-17, 18:49
Last week I was talking to a friend that was in the Marines, and he was describing firing a rifle with the butt stock over the shoulder while in the service. He said someone had shown him the technique and he preferred it. But I think it was more out of necessity due to all the gear he had on, and his vest in particular. He's not a very tall guy and so doesn't have the longest arms.
Thanks everyone, I didn't realize AR pistols didn't need a tax stamp. I figured it was still a SBR and needed one so I haven't started researching them yet.
I'm guessing this is a popular route to go if someone is waiting on a tax stamp, keep a pistol lower around to slap the SPR upper on while waiting? I just assumed buying a short barrel meant it had to stay at the dealer like a suppressor, is that not the case?
Last week I was talking to a friend that was in the Marines, and he was describing firing a rifle with the butt stock over the shoulder while in the service. He said someone had shown him the technique and he preferred it. But I think it was more out of necessity due to all the gear he had on, and his vest in particular. He's not a very tall guy and so doesn't have the longest arms.
Learning to fire with all the body Armour on is a practiced skill, and whats worse is the military keeps changing the gear. I remember in 04-05 heading into Afgan and Iraq with these crazy shoulder pads that were a huge pain. I have pics of me in mine on a hard drive somewhere.....
Your post doesn't make much sense.
An AR pistol is just that- a pistol. There are no restrictions on short barrels, or short uppers. Many people have been known to build an AR pistol first until their stamp arrives, and then replace the stock with a standard type collapsible stock.
What you said is kinda what I meant, just forgot how easy it is to replace the buffer tube from a pistol to a collapsible. No reason to build a separate complete lower.
I'm still learning .... and I tend to have couple more drinks than normal during this time of the year.
Your post doesn't make much sense.
An AR pistol is just that- a pistol. There are no restrictions on short barrels, or short uppers. Many people have been known to build an AR pistol first until their stamp arrives, and then replace the stock with a standard type collapsible stock.
Thanks everyone, I didn't realize AR pistols didn't need a tax stamp. I figured it was still a SBR and needed one so I haven't started researching them yet.
I'm guessing this is a popular route to go if someone is waiting on a tax stamp, keep a pistol lower around to slap the SPR upper on while waiting? I just assumed buying a short barrel meant it had to stay at the dealer like a suppressor, is that not the case?
What you said is kinda what I meant, just forgot how easy it is to replace the buffer tube from a pistol to a collapsible. No reason to build a separate complete lower.
I'm still learning .... and I tend to have couple more drinks than normal during this time of the year.
You need to follow a kind of weird route when building a pistol.
You cant start with a rifle and put a pistol tube on it, the receiver you use has to have been made as a pistol, or a bare receiver you are configuring.
When you buy a receiver the ATF form 4473, block 16 should be marked OTHER FIREARM and you can legally make it a pistol.
Once you it put together as a pistol you can make it a rifle (barrel over 16 inches, overall length 26) and convert it back to a pistol, but you can not legally convert a receiver/rifle that was marked LONG GUN in block 16 to a pistol. Weird, huh?
Read this: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download
titsonritz
05-28-17, 20:02
Weird, huh?
Gay-as-fukk BS is what I think you meant.
Gay-as-fukk BS is what I think you meant.
Pretty much.
Last week I was talking to a friend that was in the Marines, and he was describing firing a rifle with the butt stock over the shoulder while in the service. He said someone had shown him the technique and he preferred it. But I think it was more out of necessity due to all the gear he had on, and his vest in particular. He's not a very tall guy and so doesn't have the longest arms.
Not uncommon at all when clearing buildings with a rifle (M16/ M16A1/ M16A2/ M16A4 etc). We used to do it all the time.
jackblack73
05-28-17, 22:10
Not uncommon at all when clearing buildings with a rifle (M16/ M16A1/ M16A2/ M16A4 etc). We used to do it all the time.
Yes, you reminded me. He was talking about clearing buildings.
So if I have this straight.
If I want to build an SBR, first I need to buy a stripped lower and on the ATF form 4473, block 16 I'll mark OTHER FIREARM so in the meantime I'll be able to keep it as a pistol.
After I have the lower I then turn in the tax form for an SBR and wait for the approval, and as long as I have a pistol tube on the lower I'm good to own and use a sub 16" AR.
I'll start reading up more because I'm sure all this has been asked before but having just learned this I believe this is the route I want to go for my first build.
I'm going to head to the shop in the morning and look over the KAC and Noveske GEN III stripped lowers.
hd - I think you are on the right track. I would make sure that I had enough rounds on the pistol receiver to be sure it functioned reliably before filing a Form 1 to SBR the pistol. Should not be a problem with the manufacturers you are listing.
YOU do not mark "RIFLE" or "PISTOL" or "OTHER" on the Form 4473. The counter clerk does. By law, a receiver alone must be marked as "OTHER" on the Form 4473, unless local law dictates otherwise.
You don't need to install a pistol RE on a pistol AR. You can also use a carbine or rifle RE. You just cannot install a stock on the RE. It is legal to buy a lower with a rifle stock installed and remove the stock before configuring it as a pistol. Just be sure you do not configure it as a rifle first.
As cheap as lowers are, you might think about getting two. Build one as a dedicated pistol and SBR the other.
For a dedicated pistol, I suggest getting the VLTOR A5 pistol RE assembly and the newer design Sig arm brace
YOU do not mark "RIFLE" or "PISTOL" or "OTHER" on the Form 4473. The counter clerk does. By law, a receiver alone must be marked as "OTHER" on the Form 4473, unless local law dictates otherwise.
You don't need to install a pistol RE on a pistol AR. You can also use a carbine or rifle RE. You just cannot install a stock on the RE. It is legal to buy a lower with a rifle stock installed and remove the stock before configuring it as a pistol. Just be sure you do not configure it as a rifle first.
As cheap as lowers are, you might think about getting two. Build one as a dedicated pistol and SBR the other.
For a dedicated pistol, I suggest getting the VLTOR A5 pistol RE assembly and the newer design Sig arm brace
I believe I'm grasping most of what your saying, but I don't "want" an AR pistol to have. I want an SPR but don't want it locked up for months while I'm waiting for a stamp, so buying the lower and having it listed as a pistol is just to get it built and to be able to keep it at home and use at the range. Meanwhile I'll submit the SPR form and when it comes in I'll remove the pistol buffer tube and install an A5 adjustable.
Not uncommon at all when clearing buildings with a rifle (M16/ M16A1/ M16A2/ M16A4 etc). We used to do it all the time.
I remember doing that, not sure or not if that's currently trained for on the 20" guns. It was some time ago...
...I don't "want" an AR pistol to have...
Heh! You say that now...
so buying the lower and having it listed as a pistol is just to get it built and to be able to keep it at home and use at the range.
Yes, but as several have explained 4473 block 16 is supposed to be marked OTHER FIREARM. Make sure the local gun shop guy does that. Do not let them mark HANDGUN or LONG GUN. If they give you any guff, and they shouldn't, these instructions pretty clearly explain that ANY receiver should be marked as OTHER FIREARM. They are printed on the form:
Question 16. Type of Firearm(s): "Other" refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms, including silencers.
If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, frames and receivers are still "firearms" by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(B).
Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be
made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or rifle," it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21, nor can these firearms be transferred to anyone who is not a resident of the State where the transfer is to take place. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not "pistols or revolvers" under
Section 923(g)(3)(A).
Yes, but as several have explained 4473 block 16 is supposed to be marked OTHER FIREARM. Make sure the local gun shop guy does that. Do not let them mark HANDGUN or LONG GUN. If they give you any guff, and they shouldn't, these instructions pretty clearly explain that ANY receiver should be marked as OTHER FIREARM. They are printed on the form:
Question 16. Type of Firearm(s): "Other" refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms, including silencers.
If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, frames and receivers are still "firearms" by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(B).
Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be
made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or rifle," it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21, nor can these firearms be transferred to anyone who is not a resident of the State where the transfer is to take place. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not "pistols or revolvers" under
Section 923(g)(3)(A).
Great, thanks. Its a lot to take in trying to read through all the NFA guidelines for the first time, this really helps narrow down just what I need.
Heh! You say that now...
We'll see, for now I'm thinking a 300 BLK SBR starting off as a pistol.
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