View Full Version : Bounty hunters, fugitive shoot each other dead.
Averageman
06-01-17, 10:30
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/05/31/bounty-hunters-fugitive-shoot-each-other-dead-at-car-dealership-in-texas.html
Two bounty hunters and the fugitive from Minnesota they were tracking shot each other dead in a hail of bullets at a Texas car dealership in front of panicked customers, officials said Wednesday.
The two men, identified by authorities as Fidel Garcia and Gabriel Bernal from Corpus Christi, had pursued Ramon Michael Hutchinson, 49, on Tuesday to a Nissan dealership in Greenville, located about 50 miles northeast of Dallas.
Stew Peters, a bail investigator with the private Minnesota-based company U.S. Fugitive Recovery and Extradition, told the Associated Press that Hutchinson had been sought since March when he failed to appear for a court hearing in Hennepin County, which includes Minneapolis. Hutchinson, listed in court records as a resident of St. Paul, Minnesota, was facing several charges that included assaulting a law enforcement officer.
The two had tracked Hutchinson to the dealership, and after waiting for several hours, approached him Tuesday evening.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDW7ro3VHP8
Coal Dragger
06-01-17, 10:55
Idiots. Why would they try to aprehend him in a public area?
Maybe it should be illegal for these idiots to carry firearms.
I wouldn't be surprised that after they do the autopsy on all 3 dead participants if they find some friendly fire goings on.
Idiots. Why would they try to aprehend him in a public area?
Maybe it should be illegal for these idiots to carry firearms.
My sentiments exactly.
Not too far from where I live, back in April, seven bounty hunters shot up a car with two guys they suspected had jumped bail. Oops! One died and the other was wounded but NEITHER one was wanted. All seven of the bounty hunters were charged with 1st Degree Murder. Good.
To wit: http://fox17.com/news/local/7-bounty-hunters-shot-at-wrong-car-in-clarksville-charged-with-murder
skywalkrNCSU
06-01-17, 11:04
Idiots. Why would they try to aprehend him in a public area?
Maybe it should be illegal for these idiots to carry firearms.
Well the silver lining is we no longer have to worry about them carrying firearms.
I wouldn't be surprised that after they do the autopsy on all 3 dead participants if they find some friendly fire goings on.
Oh, I'd bet money that there was blue on blue. Hell, I wouldn't exactly be surprised if all three bodies had bullets from the same gun it in them to be honest.
Welp, at least we have two idiots and one criminal off the street? Something positive?
I think too many people watch that Dog reality show and got ideas.
Coal Dragger
06-01-17, 12:43
Well the silver lining is we no longer have to worry about them carrying firearms.
LOL. Chlorine in the gene pool.
SomeOtherGuy
06-01-17, 12:49
If you haven't watched the video, watch it. The shooting was 10 times stupider than you would think possible.
Welp, at least we have two idiots and one criminal off the street? Something positive?
I think too many people watch that Dog reality show and got ideas.
Not clear if the bond-jumper had committed a major felony or not. Not clear if the bondsman were acting legally.
More importantly, every couple of months we hear of bondsman shooting and even killing totally innocent people, like this:
My sentiments exactly.
Not too far from where I live, back in April, seven bounty hunters shot up a car with two guys they suspected had jumped bail. Oops! One died and the other was wounded but NEITHER one was wanted. All seven of the bounty hunters were charged with 1st Degree Murder. Good.
To wit: http://fox17.com/news/local/7-bounty-hunters-shot-at-wrong-car-in-clarksville-charged-with-murder
Yeah, these idiots should all be convicted and serve life in prison. But that doesn't bring the innocent dead guy back to life.
I've said it before - this version of bounty hunting has no place in the modern US. If a bond-jumper isn't important enough for local LE or US Marshalls to want them, he's not important for people to get killed over finding them. If we're going to allow armed, interstate bounty hunters, at the very least they should have the same standards of training (and so licensing) as federal LE doing similar work, i.e. US Marshalls.
Averageman
06-01-17, 12:53
I've said it before - this version of bounty hunting has no place in the modern US. If a bond-jumper isn't important enough for local LE or US Marshalls to want them, he's not important for people to get killed over finding them. If we're going to allow armed, interstate bounty hunters, at the very least they should have the same standards of training (and so licensing) as federal LE doing similar work, i.e. US Marshalls.
I'm not defending Bondsmen and certainly not the example these two have put forth, but a lot of these guys skip for years, sometimes decades. They also often continue the same criminal crap somewhere else.
There isn't an easy answer here, the bond company is on the hook for the cash paid to bond these guys out.
WickedWillis
06-01-17, 13:28
Unfortunately the video doesn't show everything that went down.
Oh, I'd bet money that there was blue on blue. Hell, I wouldn't exactly be surprised if all three bodies had bullets from the same gun it in them to be honest.
Lol so one suicide?!?!
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Lol so one suicide?!?!
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Lol. Be honest, would it really surprise you if that was the case? I mean, the one guy looks like he is trying to grab the suspect with the gun for ****s sakes.
Honest, was thinking more on the lines that suspect getting a hold of a gun during the exchange. Grade A genuine cluster **** no matter how you cut it though.
Averageman
06-01-17, 13:39
Unfortunately the video doesn't show everything that went down.
Do you have an unabridged/unedited version?
I would like to see it.
Lol. Be honest, would it really surprise you if that was the case? I mean, the one guy looks like he is trying to grab the suspect with the gun for ****s sakes.
.
Lol no, no surprise!
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WickedWillis
06-01-17, 13:43
Do you have an unabridged/unedited version?
I would like to see it.
https://youtu.be/orSLlDlS0h4
SomeOtherGuy
06-01-17, 14:06
Can't tell much, but to me it sounds like all but one of the gunshots was fired at a regular pace, as if one person was emptying a magazine at a pace they were used to shooting at.
https://youtu.be/orSLlDlS0h4
So it "seems" they had a third man, but decided to have him video the incident rather than participate in the recovery.
So it "seems" they had a third man, but decided to have him video the incident rather than participate in the recovery.
I thought it was just a customer
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There is only one video version taken from a cell phone camera, there is no alternate view or reverse angle instant playback. The person taking the video wisely took a dive after the shots rang out and one can't see any of the action shooting between the three parties.
So it "seems" they had a third man, but decided to have him video the incident rather than participate in the recovery.
That was my thought too. It made me think it was someone who knew what was getting ready to go down, and wanted to record it. Like it was an employee of the bounty hunters, or a store employee of the dealership who knew what was about to go down. Seems like whoever the cameraman was, they were focused on what was getting ready to go down.
I think that most people will automatically record guys running in with guns. They were probably seen as they came from across the showroom
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sevenhelmet
06-01-17, 15:06
Even though it's not funny, I suppress an urge to laugh every time I hear the term "bounty hunter" used in real life. The Dog show was ridiculously stupid, I never understood why guys thought it was cool. That said, the stupid coming off of this is so much worse- it's a miracle these two clowns only killed themselves, and not a bystander. There was nothing legitimate about this.
How the F is being a "Bounty Hunter" still considered a legitimate form of employment? If someone skips on their bail bond payment, couldn't the bail bond guys just place a lien on collateral, send the perp to collections, or file a police report? If you bring in the perp, so what? Does Johnny law actually pay bounties in 2017 America? If so, that seems like a terrible policy. In my opinion, any American who wants to be a "bounty hunter" should either try out for the next Star Wars movie, or learn the difference between fantasy and reality.
Also, were these bondsmen or bounty hunters? So many questions about this one... happy to read any explanations from those in the know.
Averageman
06-01-17, 15:10
You know, you could have went to your trunk, grabbed a clip board full of paper, put on a ball cap and some coveralls and asked him to step outside. Tell him that "Unfortunately there has been an accident with your car."
He would have happily nearly ran outside to look.
It was INCREDIBLY irresponsible of the bounty hunters to try and take the fugitive into custody in a dealership showroom. If I were the owner of said dealership, I'd sue their estates, not that you'd get much beyond a busted up old vehicle and some flea market office furniture. :(
SomeOtherGuy
06-01-17, 15:16
I think that most people will automatically record guys running in with guns. They were probably seen as they came from across the showroom
I don't think the guns were drawn when he started recording, but the guys look like bad news in their behavior / mannerisms. They just don't act like dealership customers or anyone else who belongs in the showroom. They act like nervous guys about to do something dangerous.
You know, you could have went to your trunk, grabbed a clip board full of paper, put on a ball cap and some coveralls and asked him to step outside. Tell him that "Unfortunately there has been an accident with your car."
He would have happily nearly ran outside to look.
This x100. Want to make analogy but trying to avoid a major thread veer.
Even though it's not funny, I suppress an urge to laugh every time I hear the term "bounty hunter" used in real life. The Dog show was ridiculously stupid, I never understood why guys thought it was cool. That said, the stupid coming off of this is so much worse- it's a miracle these two clowns only killed themselves, and not a bystander. There was nothing legitimate about this.
How the F is being a "Bounty Hunter" still considered a legitimate form of employment? If someone skips on their bail bond payment, couldn't the bail bond guys just place a lien on collateral, send the perp to collections, or file a police report? If you bring in the perp, so what? Does Johnny law actually pay bounties in 2017 America? If so, that seems like a terrible policy. In my opinion, any American who wants to be a "bounty hunter" should either try out for the next Star Wars movie, or learn the difference between fantasy and reality.
Also, were these bondsmen or bounty hunters? So many questions about this one... happy to read any explanations from those in the know.
In Texas, a bounty hunter has to be licensed in that state as a Private Investigator (or similar), as one of these two guys was. I'm not sure what kind of training goes along with that, but the news reported that at least one of these two guys was pretty experienced, evidence to the contrary. Darwininian thnning of the herd can be a bitch.
I don't think the guns were drawn when he started recording, but the guys look like bad news in their behavior / mannerisms. They just don't act like dealership customers or anyone else who belongs in the showroom. They act like nervous guys about to do something dangerous.
This x100. Want to make analogy but trying to avoid a major thread veer.
Both of them had guns drawn when they entered the salesperson's office from the main floor, or at least it appeared they were.
Both of them had guns drawn when they entered the salesperson's office from the main floor, or at least it appeared they were.
That's what I saw
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Even though it's not funny, I suppress an urge to laugh every time I hear the term "bounty hunter" used in real life. The Dog show was ridiculously stupid, I never understood why guys thought it was cool. That said, the stupid coming off of this is so much worse- it's a miracle these two clowns only killed themselves, and not a bystander. There was nothing legitimate about this.
How the F is being a "Bounty Hunter" still considered a legitimate form of employment? If someone skips on their bail bond payment, couldn't the bail bond guys just place a lien on collateral, send the perp to collections, or file a police report? If you bring in the perp, so what? Does Johnny law actually pay bounties in 2017 America? If so, that seems like a terrible policy. In my opinion, any American who wants to be a "bounty hunter" should either try out for the next Star Wars movie, or learn the difference between fantasy and reality.
Also, were these bondsmen or bounty hunters? So many questions about this one... happy to read any explanations from those in the know.
Back in the 90s I knew a couple guys who ran a pretty successful operation. It's dangerous work and involves networking with people you normally wouldn't even spit on and setting up watch in some pretty ghetto areas but they liked doing it and earned a "middle class" income for their efforts.
And bail enforcement comes in all kinds of flavors from reality show retards to guys who think and act professionally and don't engage in Delta force fantasies. Probably 30% of their recoveries involved them setting up on a house and calling the resident inside to inform them that they have the house surrounded, know their skip is inside and they don't want anyone to get hurt and ask them to have him walk out the front door with his hands visible. Not even a little drama.
Why anyone would want to "amp up" an armed target is beyond me. Skips are poor decision makers as a rule and if you approach them in "GO GO GO" mode you are going to get one reaction and only one reaction. Put together a functional team and have someone follow him and see if you can take him at a blind door when exiting the building. Same two guys could just be standing there and be on him before he even knows what happened. Calm and collected, one guy covering with a weapon if needed and the other two just calming saying "Take it easy, you're caught, no need to make this worse."
Really glad a bunch of other people didn't get shot.
I thought it was just a customer
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Could be, but almost looks like a third member of the group doing video for their youtube page. Probably also why they are in full takedown mode. I think they tried to go Delta Force for the cameras. It's an easy thing to fall into as far as self promotion.
sevenhelmet
06-01-17, 17:56
Back in the 90s ...
Really glad a bunch of other people didn't get shot.
Fair enough, and I agree. Just wondering how hiring guys to go roll up a bond skip pays out better than simply sending him to collections and/or pressing charges, or having a warrant issued. Seems like most of them would get caught eventually anyway, but I admit I know next to nothing about this.
bad guys do not get out on bond !!!!!
no more bond hunter idiocy !!!
remember here in Phoenix when they went after the chief of police because they had the wrong house or something ;) hahahahahah
bond people are for the most parts (not all) idiots and people that can not even become mall security often because they themselves were criminals etc..
Could be, but almost looks like a third member of the group doing video for their youtube page. Probably also why they are in full takedown mode. I think they tried to go Delta Force for the cameras. It's an easy thing to fall into as far as self promotion.
ditto
youtube fame
or
reality tv fame and trying to be cool
The person taking the video wisely took a dive after the shots rang out and one can't see any of the action shooting between the three parties.
If you get a video player with good slo-mo or frame-by- frame, you can see jumper pulled gun from waistband, fumbled it (you can see it in air) but it landed on desk. BHs got behind him, and jumper picked up gun from desk and shot BH on right (as we view). BH on left then fired, and may have missed, as window broke. Then videographer dove for cover.
This video slows it down and explains it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RP2QXpo7XQ
So let me get this strait. These two aspiring members of Mensa approached a guy that they felt could need deadly force in an enclosed public area with at least one other person in the line of fire.
Maybe I am getting soft in my old age. But I can't see a single scenario where this was a good idea.
I am sure the guy they were going after was a dirtbag. I don't feel bad for him in the least. But it looks to me like their actions put a LOT of other people in danger that didn't need to be. They had no control of the situation from the start.
There is only one video version taken from a cell phone camera, there is no alternate view or reverse angle instant playback. The person taking the video wisely took a dive after the shots rang out and one can't see any of the action shooting between the three parties.
I wonder if the dealer has security footage to ?
I do wonder if some here saw two guys in a dealership when you were there with guns out !!!!!
what would of or could have happened ?
I do wonder if some here saw two guys in a dealership when you were there with guns out !!!!!
what would of or could have happened ?
Assuming they weren't directly threatening me, I'd leave by the closest exit.
I do wonder if some here saw two guys in a dealership when you were there with guns out !!!!!
what would of or could have happened ?
Out the nearest ****ing exit like Husseim Bolt on rhoids.
You know I'd like to see some stats on the number of bounty hunter apprehensions and **** ups. Maybe I am just an optimist, but I sure as shit hope the poo flinging monkeys from the last few escapades are the exception. If not it may be time to just do away with them or mandate some training along the lines of say armed security officers at least, if not Police Academy Lite. I am hoping there are a bunch of guys out there going "and this is whay we cant have nice things"
Not sure why violent folks get bail to begin with, but Id sure as heck wouldnt want to do away with the option for those committing non violent acts. Not everyone is an asshole, and some people do in fact just screw up and get better. Id like to afford those folks a chance to get out and redeem themselves rather than suck up tax $$ till trial.
My far-from expert opinion is that they should have shot when he was juggling the gun.
But I'm not a cop, so I could be far off.
But, I agree the situation was far from the get-go.
Out the nearest ****ing exit like Husseim Bolt on rhoids.
You know I'd like to see some stats on the number of bounty hunter apprehensions and **** ups. Maybe I am just an optimist, but I sure as shit hope the poo flinging monkeys from the last few escapades are the exception. If not it may be time to just do away with them or mandate some training along the lines of say armed security officers at least, if not Police Academy Lite. I am hoping there are a bunch of guys out there going "and this is whay we cant have nice things"
Not sure why violent folks get bail to begin with, but Id sure as heck wouldnt want to do away with the option for those committing non violent acts. Not everyone is an asshole, and some people do in fact just screw up and get better. Id like to afford those folks a chance to get out and redeem themselves rather than suck up tax $$ till trial.
Just like bad cops happen, bad bounty hunters happen. In the case of bounty hunters it's made worse due to less required training and almost a complete lack of standardization. Additionally, the guys who actually do the enforcement have less regulation than the bondman and people with "street connections" are often hired as they are the most effective when it comes to hunting skips, but those same guys sometimes bring a lot of "street connection" problems with them.
Bottom line is a boy scout Wally Cleaver type probably wouldn't make an effective bounty hunter.
People get bonds because of innocent until proven guilty and all that. Judges make the determination regarding who qualifies to bond out and how much it will cost. Typically in Broward Co. a person only has to put up 10% of the bail amount. So when you hear about dangerous drug dealer types having their bail set at 10,000 the truth of the matter is they only need to come up with 1.000.
The remainder of the amount is where the bond comes in. A bail bondsman essentially loans the amount and just like any other loan collateral is secured, this is why people sometimes put up a house or car to secure a bail / bond. And once you sign that agreement, you also surrender many personal rights and that is why they are allowed to kick your parents front door and come in waiving guns and snatch you without a warrant. You basically waived all of your rights when you signed the bond agreement.
These guys are basically debt collectors who are after the debtor. They have wide latitude when it comes to securing their debt. Some of them are complete clowns who have no idea what they are doing, others are guys that are so effective they can rack up a half dozen skips in a single day without incident. As with everything else, the big operations are usually most effective as they have the manpower to do things the right way and train their guys accordingly, then you have the small shop operations who really seem to have gotten all of their training from gaming.
My far-from expert opinion is that they should have shot when he was juggling the gun.
But I'm not a cop, so I could be far off.
But, I agree the situation was far from the get-go.
Neither were they....cops.
Initially the thing that jumped out at me was they both started wrassling with the guy with their own guns out. So now we have three guns in a wrestling match with no one watching them. The police call it contact/cover. The cover officer is there to protect the contact officer. Hard to do when you are both playing grab fu.
Assuming they weren't directly threatening me, I'd leave by the closest exit.
yeah maybe arfcom would be a better place :) also reckon most of us would do the same !
about the time I joined here I was drifting from the other place !
part of what made me leave for good was a discussion about being around a situation like this !!! but the guy in question(fake scenario) had a AK and fully loaded with body armor and what would folks do !
I said get my family to safety and call the police !
some member called me a piece of female anatomy for that and said he would open fire on the guy cause he could head shot him !!
I said if you did that and I was next to you I would shoot you for drawing his fire on me and my family :) hahahahahahah that did not go over to well of course !
Moose-Knuckle
06-02-17, 02:49
Did not see anyone else mention this but . . .
According to dealership owner Rick Ford, two men walked into the dealership and announced that they were federal agents. The pair didn’t show any badges or present identification.
“We didn’t give them permission, but we also didn’t tell them that they had to leave. We were told they were federal agents so we didn’t ask them to leave,” he said. “They were dressed casual. We thought they were plainclothes officers.”
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/05/31/3-dead-after-shootout-at-north-texas-car-dealership/
I'm pretty sure there is something in the US code that says falsely identifying yourself as a "federal agent" is a no-no.
Did not see anyone else mention this but . . .
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/05/31/3-dead-after-shootout-at-north-texas-car-dealership/
I'm pretty sure there is something in the US code that says falsely identifying yourself as a "federal agent" is a no-no.
It is not clear what they said, but that is the owner's story. It is not clear they even said it to him, since rarely is a dealership owner on the floor. Not that it matters since they are all dead.
I'm not defending Bondsmen and certainly not the example these two have put forth, but a lot of these guys skip for years, sometimes decades. They also often continue the same criminal crap somewhere else.
There isn't an easy answer here, the bond company is on the hook for the cash paid to bond these guys out.
I haven't read the entire thread yet but I need to being something up. When I was LE, and Firefly (assuming he's still around here) and other LE will have seen this too, I'd find people with outstanding bond warrants from other states. The states, for the most part, would not extradite even for felonies. The bad guys know this and that is exactly why the leave the state. If the states would be more willing to extradite their own dirtbags home on these warrants we could cut back on these bail bondsmen.
SomeOtherGuy
06-02-17, 10:41
And once you sign that agreement, you also surrender many personal rights and that is why they are allowed to kick your parents front door and come in waiving guns and snatch you without a warrant. You basically waived all of your rights when you signed the bond agreement.
The person getting bailed out can sign away their rights, yeah. But they can't sign away someone else's rights, especially some random innocent stranger four states away. The entire bail-bonds system in the US today is BS. It should be abolished.
Neither were they....cops.
Initially the thing that jumped out at me was they both started wrassling with the guy with their own guns out. So now we have three guns in a wrestling match with no one watching them. The police call it contact/cover. The cover officer is there to protect the contact officer. Hard to do when you are both playing grab fu.
Yesterday the news reported he pulled a gun, then dropped it, then they wrestled for it. Right after the cut was to a Texas LEO or two who were praising the work at least one of those guys had done in the past..... Not hearing those interviews today...
I've got to tell you, I know there is a time and place for ever thing and every type job but this Bounty Hunter nonsense the way it's handled around the public is insane. It's like those Pink Ladies or whatever they call them selves... I have no training in that type ordeal but I am absolutely certain that if I knew my target worked at a car dealer or ate breakfast at iHOP weekly, that I could come up with some very reasonable situation to get next to them away from the public. Then if I was stupid enough to get shot at least it wouldn't endanger anyone else and when they came to carry me away certainly the cops are now going to be looking for that guy. There is no sane reason to allow Bounty Hunters to play stupid games in public except possibly under the most extreme conditions.
Why not a finders fee? Hey, we tracked this guy down, he works at "X", here is his routine. We want the local LEO to arrest him while so we get credit for the capture contract. I just don't get the modern day BH other than some grownups playing legalized public outlaws. I've never heard of a business where you can endanger the public in that manner and walk around above the law like everything is hunky dorey.
The person getting bailed out can sign away their rights, yeah. But they can't sign away someone else's rights, especially some random innocent stranger four states away. The entire bail-bonds system in the US today is BS. It should be abolished.
Didn't mean to even suggest anyone else surrenders their rights, just explaining how and why bail enforcement guys do what they do. And that is the low level fugitive recovery system we have until we get a better one. We simply don't have 10 million US Marshals to go after every dealer who skips.
And the US Marshals hardly have a spotless track record either. When you go after "armed bad guys" it isn't always pretty no matter who is doing it. Obviously you shouldn't be trying to put a bunch of bystanders in the mix or do retarded things that get you and your partner killed, but sadly as we've seen that happens.
SomeOtherGuy
06-02-17, 15:05
Didn't mean to even suggest anyone else surrenders their rights, just explaining how and why bail enforcement guys do what they do. And that is the low level fugitive recovery system we have until we get a better one. We simply don't have 10 million US Marshals to go after every dealer who skips.
The problem is that the way SOME bounty hunters operate, they run roughshod over other people's rights while looking for the skip.
And the US Marshals hardly have a spotless track record either. When you go after "armed bad guys" it isn't always pretty no matter who is doing it. Obviously you shouldn't be trying to put a bunch of bystanders in the mix or do retarded things that get you and your partner killed, but sadly as we've seen that happens.
It's a difficult task no matter who does it, but if you reserve it to government-employed LEO, you have:
-accountability, at least to some extent
-likely higher standards; for every 1 highly qualified bondsman I'll bet there are 20 idiots
-$$$ to compensate innocent people for C-F incidents (not that money brings the dead back to life)
And finally, some tasks are just better off being government tasks even if the govt doesn't automatically do the job any better. IMHO tracking and arresting fugitives is one of these.
And hey, this is 2017. Why is this being done the same way as in 1860? Do the bail bonds guys use ankle bracelet tracking transmitters? And maybe some people aren't credit-worthy for bail bonding, either.
The victims are the witnesses and rightfully so, but you just know some scumbag ghoul is going to offer representation to sue the piss out of anything and everything for a healthy sum, all the while these folks have a low chance of returning to work d/t PTSD. There's resilience and then there's "No way I'm going in that hole again."
The problem is that the way SOME bounty hunters operate, they run roughshod over other people's rights while looking for the skip.
It's a difficult task no matter who does it, but if you reserve it to government-employed LEO, you have:
-accountability, at least to some extent
-likely higher standards; for every 1 highly qualified bondsman I'll bet there are 20 idiots
-$$$ to compensate innocent people for C-F incidents (not that money brings the dead back to life)
And finally, some tasks are just better off being government tasks even if the govt doesn't automatically do the job any better. IMHO tracking and arresting fugitives is one of these.
And hey, this is 2017. Why is this being done the same way as in 1860? Do the bail bonds guys use ankle bracelet tracking transmitters? And maybe some people aren't credit-worthy for bail bonding, either.
Agree with all of this. The problem, sadly is that the bounty hunters probably have more trigger time on the way to buying into their own hype. WTF would somebody be drawn to that lifestyle and decide life would be much better as a cop? My view is some of these guys aren't answering a calling, they're playing billy badass. Rules are for cops, so don't be one, yet get all the "glory" of toting a gun on the gray side of the law.
Yesterday the news reported he pulled a gun, then dropped it, then they wrestled for it. Right after the cut was to a Texas LEO or two who were praising the work at least one of those guys had done in the past..... Not hearing those interviews today...
If your my partner and there is a gun flying around loose, one of us is going to stay out of the fracas and be ready for the head/angled CNS shot that immediately incapacitates, if needed.
I've read too many officer killed summaries that include the phrase 'while both officers were struggling with the suspect...'
Agree with all of this. The problem, sadly is that the bounty hunters probably have more trigger time on the way to buying into their own hype. WTF would somebody be drawn to that lifestyle and decide life would be much better as a cop? My view is some of these guys aren't answering a calling, they're playing billy badass. Rules are for cops, so don't be one, yet get all the "glory" of toting a gun on the gray side of the law.
You are close to the "because some gun owners are bad" line of thinking. Some people don't want to be cops, but they are effective bounty hunters, private investigators, etc. It's easy to assume everyone in "security related" fields is just a flunkie who couldn't make the grade. There's a bunch of guys in the state police who think that about regular cops, and guys in federal law enforcement who think that way about state police.
Sure there are clowns, there is a reason "Dog" isn't allowed to carry a gun. I'm kind of mystified why he still has bounty hunter credentials. The bar is real low, but that doesn't mean we need to eliminate it completely. And we shouldn't forget, most non gun people view CCW carriers in much the same way you view bounty hunters. You hear things like "They don't have the training" and "If they want to carry a gun they should become cops" all the time.
But for everyone "tactical fiasco" takedown, there are guys who do the job every day who never make the news because they are competent and effective. I wouldn't want to take away their livelihood because of the actions of others. And just as we cringe every time some CCW idiot has a ND in a public restroom, those guys also cringe when incompetent bounty hunters screw the pooch and make the news.
The constitution says otherwise.
bad guys do not get out on bond !!!!!
no more bond hunter idiocy !!!
remember here in Phoenix when they went after the chief of police because they had the wrong house or something ;) hahahahahah
bond people are for the most parts (not all) idiots and people that can not even become mall security often because they themselves were criminals etc..
As someone who has actually done the job, and not armchair quarterbacked about it, most people do not understand the bail bond system, nor do they understand the relationship between the bondsman and the so-called "bounty hunter".
When I was working in the Northwest, there was no licensing in place and it wasn't a requirement in many places.
When a person signs a bail agreement, they are essentially giving up their rights to the bondsman. The court has held that the bondsman becomes the de facto jailer- this has been confirmed in several court rulings.
Most bond agreements have stipulations that must be adhered to, most people do not read them nor do they care since they only want out of jail and to remain free.
The bondsman or his designated agent can return a person to the custody of the jail or court of jurisdiction at almost any time, and for any reason. The bondsman or agent need only present a notarized affidavit of surrender at the time the surrender is made.
Additionally an actual warrant of arrest is not needed as the forfeiture notice is considered sufficient (although some jurisdictions will not accept them without a verified warrant- this is a political phuc phuc game and nothing more).
The bondsman or his agent isn't enforcing criminal law, but rather tort law in regards to the contract signed.
In many jurisdictions the bondsman has a set period of time, in which the bond forfeiture must be paid. In some places it is required upon receiving notice, in other cases it can be 60 days, etc.. The problem then arises that when a defendant fails to appear and the bond was secured using collateral (such as a deed of trust for property, a vehicle, etc..) you then have to go through legal procedure to get a judgement against that indemnitor. The court isn't going to wait for that process to play out, so if a defendant fails to appear for a felony drug charge that was say a $50,000 bond, it needs to be paid. Get two or 3 of those within a short period of time and you can kiss your company good bye.
Now enter the recovery agent or the bondsman who locates the defendant and apprehends him and returns him to the court or jail. In most all jurisdictions the bondsman will then present said documents to the court and request that a bond be re-instated and then exonerated relieving them and the indemnitor of any liabilities (with the exception of certain costs and fees). The indemnitor will still have to pay a recovery fee, but it will only be a small percentage of the bond (10-20%) depending on circumstances.
If a person foregoes a bail company and posts a bond directly with the jail or court, you do not have any such protections and can still be found liable if the defendant fails to appear. Additionally in most jurisdictions across the country, the agencies that still operate fugitive squads are only concerned with high profile stuff (drug trafficking, murder, rapes, etc..). They aren't looking for the guy with an FTA for domestic violence.
As with most things, a group of idiots will ruin it, the same way stupid gun owners will make the other xx% look bad, the same way xx% of police officers will make others look bed, etc.. etc...
The constitution says otherwise.
no it doesn't
bad guys can be denied bail !!! and it happens at times :)
courts/judge have to decide if they could cause danger to the community and can deny bail !
also current actions of people trying to recover bail was NOT how it was meant to be happening by putting other citizens in danger !
This thread is about the original topic. Not other members, past personnel actions, other thread closures, or anything related thereto. Off-topic content has been removed.
SeriousStudent
06-02-17, 20:22
As someone who has actually done the job, and not armchair quarterbacked about it, most people do not understand the bail bond system, nor do they understand the relationship between the bondsman and the so-called "bounty hunter".
When I was working in the Northwest, there was no licensing in place and it wasn't a requirement in many places.
When a person signs a bail agreement, they are essentially giving up their rights to the bondsman. The court has held that the bondsman becomes the de facto jailer- this has been confirmed in several court rulings.
Most bond agreements have stipulations that must be adhered to, most people do not read them nor do they care since they only want out of jail and to remain free.
The bondsman or his designated agent can return a person to the custody of the jail or court of jurisdiction at almost any time, and for any reason. The bondsman or agent need only present a notarized affidavit of surrender at the time the surrender is made.
Additionally an actual warrant of arrest is not needed as the forfeiture notice is considered sufficient (although some jurisdictions will not accept them without a verified warrant- this is a political phuc phuc game and nothing more).
The bondsman or his agent isn't enforcing criminal law, but rather tort law in regards to the contract signed.
In many jurisdictions the bondsman has a set period of time, in which the bond forfeiture must be paid. In some places it is required upon receiving notice, in other cases it can be 60 days, etc.. The problem then arises that when a defendant fails to appear and the bond was secured using collateral (such as a deed of trust for property, a vehicle, etc..) you then have to go through legal procedure to get a judgement against that indemnitor. The court isn't going to wait for that process to play out, so if a defendant fails to appear for a felony drug charge that was say a $50,000 bond, it needs to be paid. Get two or 3 of those within a short period of time and you can kiss your company good bye.
Now enter the recovery agent or the bondsman who locates the defendant and apprehends him and returns him to the court or jail. In most all jurisdictions the bondsman will then present said documents to the court and request that a bond be re-instated and then exonerated relieving them and the indemnitor of any liabilities (with the exception of certain costs and fees). The indemnitor will still have to pay a recovery fee, but it will only be a small percentage of the bond (10-20%) depending on circumstances.
If a person foregoes a bail company and posts a bond directly with the jail or court, you do not have any such protections and can still be found liable if the defendant fails to appear. Additionally in most jurisdictions across the country, the agencies that still operate fugitive squads are only concerned with high profile stuff (drug trafficking, murder, rapes, etc..). They aren't looking for the guy with an FTA for domestic violence.
As with most things, a group of idiots will ruin it, the same way stupid gun owners will make the other xx% look bad, the same way xx% of police officers will make others look bed, etc.. etc...
I was hoping you would post in this thread. I knew your background, but wanted you to post your experience only if you wished to do so.
The Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution states: “Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.” This amendment prohibits the federal government from imposing unduly harsh penalties on criminal defendants, either as the price for obtaining pretrial release or as punishment for crime after conviction.
I'll defer to you since you are the expert on the bail system, but there has been a private bail type system in placed for hundreds of years. It was in fact done in England. In the U.S. there has been a history of "bounty hunters" going after criminals and the gov't paying them a bounty to do so.
When the private bail system came into place, that job simply changed with the times. In some cases it was done by the bondsman and or their designated agent, and other times it was subcontracted out to private detectives since the job is much like that of a detective with the exception that you must also deliver the good(s) which in this case is a body.
no it doesn't
bad guys can be denied bail !!! and it happens at times :)
courts/judge have to decide if they could cause danger to the community and can deny bail !
also current actions of people trying to recover bail was NOT how it was meant to be happening by putting other citizens in danger !
bad guys can be denied bail ! says a criminal lawyer turned state prosecutor :)
The Eighth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution requires that bail not be excessive, though prior to 1966 there was no inherent Constitutional right for a Defendant to be offered bail in the first place.
In 1984 Congress replaced the Bail Reform Act of 1966 with new bail law, codified at United States Code, Title 18, Sections 3141-3150. The main innovation of the new law is that it allows pre-trial detention of individuals based upon their danger to the community; under prior law and traditional bail statutes in the U.S., pre-trial detention was to be based solely upon the risk of flight.
No shit? Yeah, of course they can. But, in the real world, most people are allowed bail.
bad guys can be denied bail ! says a criminal lawyer turned state prosecutor :)
Moose-Knuckle
06-03-17, 03:32
It is not clear what they said, but that is the owner's story. It is not clear they even said it to him, since rarely is a dealership owner on the floor. Not that it matters since they are all dead.
It matters if they did in fact identify themselves as Federal LE then the owner has a case against the company they work for/hired by to recover the fugitive. The owner was probably on the golf course or perhaps a massage parlor when his GM called him to tell him that "Feds are here looking for one of his employees". So at this point I have no reason not to believe the dealership owner. At the end of the day it's his property/business and he is liable for his employees and customers well being. If he is taken to court he has a defense if in fact the bounty hunters lied about being Fed LE as if he knew they were bounty hunters he probably would have told them to take a hike.
It matters if they did in fact identify themselves as Federal LE then the owner has a case against the company they work for/hired by to recover the fugitive. The owner was probably on the golf course or perhaps a massage parlor when his GM called him to tell him that "Feds are here looking for one of his employees". So at this point I have no reason not to believe the dealership owner. At the end of the day it's his property/business and he is liable for his employees and customers well being. If he is taken to court he has a defense if in fact the bounty hunters lied about being Fed LE as if he knew they were bounty hunters he probably would have told them to take a hike.
They were self-employed under their own company. Their company was not Pinkerton with lots of assets. Their were no injuries except to the deceased. The dealership had some damage but it is fixed and they are re-opened. Lawyers all over NTX are mourning their will be no payout.
They were not looking for a dealership employee.
This event brings up the issue of bounty hunters in general. Not an expert here, but my understanding is that in some states (most?) there's little barrier to becoming one, a ton of yahoos (see vid...) doing it, and not under the same restraints legally as LE. I know a few very switched on guys that do that work, and their opinion of the majority of people doing it, very low. Understandably, LEO are not big fans as a rule in my experience, but in those rare cases the BH is a GTG guy they know, not a major issue.
Seeing awful shows like Dog the Bounty hunter, etc, amazed this type of thing does not happen more often, It seemed they went in there with no plan, no forethought of the surroundings, and dude #2 could hardly fit through the door.
For those who know the details of the industry, does this ring true?
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/does-the-bounty-hunting-industry-need-reform/399224/
These guys just strike me as low life morons no better than the criminals they chase. I'm not saying they are ALL like that, but these, and I'm sure many others are just idiots. Plus the put innocent civilians at great risk.
These guys just strike me as low life morons no better than the criminals they chase. I'm not saying they are ALL like that, but these, and I'm sure many others are just idiots. Plus the put innocent civilians at great risk.
And again, that is how your typical, uninformed person feels about people with concealed weapon permits.
How much information and reasoning does it take to view the subject matter as anything other than moronic? When cops get a shit rap for some dope screwing up there's the understanding that "yeah, but 99.9% of the guys are good". With these idiots, you have Dog.
I'm perfectly willing to understand there are consummate professionals out there, but how do you know? The concept of trust first is a dying one.
How much information and reasoning does it take to view the subject matter as anything other than moronic? When cops get a shit rap for some dope screwing up there's the understanding that "yeah, but 99.9% of the guys are good". With these idiots, you have Dog.
I'm perfectly willing to understand there are consummate professionals out there, but how do you know? The concept of trust first is a dying one.
The concept of trust first is counterintuitive to self preservation. You could go with "trust but verify", but that only works with vetted and accountable contacts. When I see a non-LE individuals traipsing around in public with tac gear and "special" identifiers to justify their exposed weapons, experience dictates that these are people I do not want to be anywhere near when they exercise their "specialness".
Papa Thorsen these boys were not. :(
Moose-Knuckle
06-04-17, 03:34
They were self-employed under their own company. Their company was not Pinkerton with lots of assets. Their were no injuries except to the deceased. The dealership had some damage but it is fixed and they are re-opened. Lawyers all over NTX are mourning their will be no payout.
Anybody can sue anybody. Deceased people have estates, etc. Injuries are not just physical, emotional trauma, PTSD, etc.
They were not looking for a dealership employee.
I was under the impression the guy they were looking for worked there.
But I couldn't care either way as none of the above has anything to do with my post about the owner's comment that these two heros identified themselves as Federal LE, if you take issue with that take it up with him.
But I couldn't care either way as none of the above has anything to do with my post about the owner's comment that these two heros identified themselves as Federal LE,
NO, he never said they were Federal LE.
Moose-Knuckle
06-05-17, 04:10
NO, he never said they were Federal LE.
Good to know you where there.
According to dealership owner Rick Ford, two men walked into the dealership and announced that they were federal agents. The pair didn’t show any badges or present identification.
“We didn’t give them permission, but we also didn’t tell them that they had to leave. We were told they were federal agents so we didn’t ask them to leave,” he said. “They were dressed casual. We thought they were plainclothes officers.”
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/05/31/3-dead-after-shootout-at-north-texas-car-dealership/
Post #45:
I'm pretty sure there is something in the US code that says falsely identifying yourself as a "federal agent" is a no-no.
Post #71:
But I couldn't care either way as none of the above has anything to do with my post about the owner's comment that these two heros identified themselves as Federal LE,
See, you just proved my point.
Folks do not recall the exact words they use, or do they use them consistently. One post you say "Federal Agents" another you say "Federal LE". Next post you will say they worked for the FBI. Words have meaning, and they are not the same. Lots of folks are Federal Agents, but not Federal LE.
This is over. Accept it. There is not going to be a big legal payout. Does not matter what they said. The dealership suffered the most damage, and they were also the most liable. They also have the deepest pockets. They are not going to sue themselves.
Moose-Knuckle
06-06-17, 04:19
One post you say "Federal Agents" another you say "Federal LE". Next post you will say they worked for the FBI. Words have meaning, and they are not the same. Lots of folks are Federal Agents, but not Federal LE.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4242/34746003210_81b3253b75.jpg
And speaking of "accepting things" ( :lol: ) nothing you have yammered on about disproved what the owner said about the bounty hunters.
Like.
At.
All.
And speaking of "accepting things" ( :lol: ) nothing you have yammered on about disproved what the owner said about the bounty hunters.
Like.
At.
All.
Exactly.
Something was written on the Internets.
You presume it must be true without any other evidence and I do not.
SomeOtherGuy
06-06-17, 09:13
The dealership suffered the most damage, and they were also the most liable. They also have the deepest pockets. They are not going to sue themselves.
Wut? How is the dealership the most liable here?
Wut? How is the dealership the most liable here?
They are the ones most likely to be found liable if their was a lawsuit. Always follow the money. No lawyer wants a jury to find the guilty liable and get a $1 payout, they want the deepest pockets to be found liable.
Moose-Knuckle
06-07-17, 03:05
You presume it must be true without any other evidence and I do not.
Ah I see, now.
All part of the grand "conspiracy".
Must be the Russians.
Owner was on local tv news yesterday (KDFW4) and has changed his story. He now states he did not talk to bounty hunters and thus they did not tell him they were federal agents. He says it was a "miscommunication".
No surprise here. As most of us know the early reporting in any breaking story is often incorrect.
ME report to come soon, showing who shot who.
Ah I see, now.
All part of the grand "conspiracy".
Must be the Russians.
Nope, just the good old Fake News Media, more concerned with being first then being accurate. This is not the first time, nor will it be the last. Who can forget this gem from the past:
"Ryan Lochte Robbed at Gun Point"
It was on the Internets, so it must be true.....
Lots of folks fell for that story too.
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