View Full Version : Civil War in the US: Was the Baseball Game Shooting the Opening Salvo?
Doc Safari
06-16-17, 14:14
We all know about the shooting that injured Mr. Scalise. Had the shooter been able to actually aim, we might have been looking at a mass murder of several members of Congress. Luckily the shooter's own incompetence and the intervention of Mr. Scalise's bodyguards prevented what could have been an historic mass assassination--something even the turbulence of the 1960's never produced.
Most commentators I've followed over the last few days have branded the man as a dangerous, out-of-control nut case--but the scary thing is some people are actually saying he acted rationally and deliberately with no apparent mental issues. One can "analyze" a person only so far from his online posts and family history, that's not the issue. Whether the shooter was deranged or entirely coherent is beside the point.
The point is that the political rhetoric in this country is continually ratcheted up to the point that it has now spilled over into political violence. The shooter didn't just randomly pick a few anonymous victims, nor did he target people with whom he might have had a personal vendetta. No, he targeted politicians who simply belonged to a party he opposed.
I've thought about this thoroughly through the past few days. I was not worried about mass shooters before.
I am now.
How many more shooters have been potentially activated by the continual escalation of violent rhetoric, particularly on the left?
How many on the other side will react with the "Bubba Effect" and "teach those people a lesson?"
I am beginning to wonder if genuinely the first shots have been fired in the second American Civil War.
Of course, this one will be different. Instead of the blue and the grey squaring off on some desolate field with organized armies, it will be neighbor against neighbor. Instead of the opening shot being an attack on Fort Sumter, it will be just the kind of shooting that nearly changed history this past week.
Was this shooting the opening salvo of the new civil war? Or was the shooter just another flake with a grievance?
What do you think?
skywalkrNCSU
06-16-17, 14:19
This is an easy one. No.
RetroRevolver77
06-16-17, 14:41
I'd say it's been building up for a while. Democrats are violent Left Wing Extremists and have no problem destroying people's lives, attacking people during political rallies, rioting, and injuring innocent people. This was just a natural progression of the same. There was another political shooting on the same day in Indiana- luckily no one was hurt. Then just saw this on Fox:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/06/16/nj-democratic-strategist-launches-huntrepublicans-and-huntrepublicancongressmen.html
Just another nut job doing what nut jobs do, have always done, and will always do. If CW2 ever eventually happens, this will not be remembered as the start of it. Especially since this nut job failed miserably.
I'd say it's been building up for a while. Democrats are violent Left Wing Extremists and have no problem destroying people's lives, attacking people during political rallies, rioting, and injuring innocent people. This was just a natural progression of the same. There was another political shooting on the same day in Indiana- luckily no one was hurt. Then just saw this on Fox:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/06/16/nj-democratic-strategist-launches-huntrepublicans-and-huntrepublicancongressmen.html
If the guy in your link gets what he's asking for, I don't think he will be very happy. Or very alive.
SomeOtherGuy
06-16-17, 15:04
It's arbitrary to call this one incident THE first shots in a second civil war. But the current political climate is not respect for the law and civilized disagreement. If you study wars and their causes, including the 1861 Civil War and many others, wars tend to start at an arbitrary point in time after the conditions have been festering for a long time, often many years. It's also possible for things to pull back before that arbitrary point in time, and you could easily come up with a dozen "wars that weren't" in the last 50 years. Who has a crystal ball?
Outlander Systems
06-16-17, 15:10
I voted no.
Civil War is unlikely in the near term, but further events like the situation in D.C. are probably going to increase in frequency, and further widen the schism between the polarized Left and Right.
As an aside, what the hell ever happened to civilized disagreement?
What exactly would said civil war be fought over? What are the two sides?
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Doc Safari
06-16-17, 15:12
I voted no.
Civil War is unlikely in the near term, but further events like the situation in D.C. are probably going to increase in frequency, and further widen the schism between the polarized Left and Right.
As an aside, what the hell ever happened to civilized disagreement?
Exactly. People can't even post on this forum without degenerating into personal attacks. Put a gun in somebody's hand and it isn't just for entertainment anymore. Add to that the fact that the media is pouring gasoline on the fire and we live in very dangerous times.
I don't see things getting better before they get worse.
titsonritz
06-16-17, 15:15
This is an easy one. No.
This is an easy one. No.
I agree
Doc Safari
06-16-17, 15:17
Not that it would be scientific, but I would love to know if the democrat-leaning members are voting primarily no and if the republican-leaning members are voting primarily yes.
And if the victims of the shooting had been democrats, would the voting trend be reversed?
I know we'll never know, but it's a factor, i.e., whatever group was in the perceived "victim" category this past week might vote one way while the perceived "instigator" category might vote the other way.
Just an observation.
skywalkrNCSU
06-16-17, 15:23
Not that it would be scientific, but I would love to know if the democrat-leaning members are voting primarily no and if the republican-leaning members are voting primarily yes.
And if the victims of the shooting had been democrats, would the voting trend be reversed?
I know we'll never know, but it's a factor, i.e., whatever group was in the perceived "victim" category this past week might vote one way while the perceived "instigator" category might vote the other way.
Just an observatio.
There is a big difference between someone who doesn't toe the Republican line and agree with all of the far right rhetoric and someone who is democrat leaning. I have never cast a single vote for someone with a D beside their name but that doesn't mean I find what the clowns do in the Republican Party to be good for the country or even competent. Unfortunately nuance is lost and so you can't even disagree with Trump around here without having liberal and socialist claims flung in your direction.
If I had to apply a label to myself it would likely be Libertarian but even they are a bit too loony for my tastes. It sure as hell would not be democrat.
Doc Safari
06-16-17, 15:25
There is a big difference between someone who doesn't toe the Republican line and agree with all of the far right rhetoric and someone who is democrat leaning. I have never cast a single vote for someone with a D beside their name but that doesn't mean I find what the clowns do in the Republican Party to be good for the country or even competent. Unfortunately nuance is lost and so you can't even disagree with Trump around here without having liberal and socialist claims flung in your direction.
If I had to apply a label to myself it would likely be Libertarian but even they are a bit too loony for my tastes. It sure as hell would not be democrat.
Point taken. I admit I probably oversimplified things. Personally I've been Independent (Decline to State) for several years now, and deep down I can't stand either party. But I do thing one is lately worse than the other (both being utterly awful).
Doc Safari
06-16-17, 15:32
A list of attacks against conservatives, READ: why we should all be very worried.
(If anyone can produce a similar list of attacks against liberals, by all means post it. This thread is about information, not furthering an agenda).
http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/16/this-list-of-attacks-against-conservatives-is-mind-blowing/
July 2016:
-A Hillary Clinton supporter lights a flag on fire and attacks a Trump supporter in Pittsburgh.
-Protesters jumped on cars, stole hats, fought with and threw eggs at Trump supporters outside a Trump rally in downtown San Jose. Trump supporters sued San Jose over the violence.
August 2016:
-Anti-Trump protesters attacked pushed, spit on and verbally harassed attendees forced to walk a “gauntlet” as they left a Trump fundraiser in Minneapolis, Minn., and beat an elderly man. Protesters also attacked Trump’s motorcade.
–A Tennessee man was assaulted at a garage sale for being a Trump supporter.
-A Trump supporter in New Jersey was attacked with a crowbar on the street.
September 2016:
-Protesters in El Cajon, Calif., chased and beat up a Trump supporter.
October 2016:
-A GOP office in North Carolina was firebombed and spray painted with “Nazi Republicans get out of town or else.”
November 2016:
-A high school student was attacked after she wrote that she supported Trump on social media. The perpetrator ripped her glasses off and punched her in the face.
-The president of Cornell University’s College Republicans was assaulted the night after Trump won the election.
-Students protesting Trump punched and kicked a Maryland high school student wearing a Make America Great Again hat.
-A high school student was arrested in Florida after he punched a classmate for carrying a Trump sign at school.
-A group of black men in Chicago attacked a white man while raging against Trump.
-Maryland high school students punched a student who was demonstrating in support of Trump, and then kicked him repeatedly while he was on the ground.
-“You support Trump. You hate Mexicans,” a California high school student yelled at a Trump supporter, before viciously beating the girl.
-An anti-bullying ambassador was arrested for shoving a 74-year-old man to the ground in a fight outside Trump tower where people upset over his win had gathered. The woman tied to Black Lives Matter caused the man to hit his head on the sidewalk.
-A Texas elementary school student was beaten by his classmates for voting for Trump in a mock election.
-Two men punched and kicked a Connecticut man who was standing with an American flag and a Trump sign.
December 2016:
-A Trump supporter was beaten and dragged by a car.
January 2017:
-A Trump supporter was knocked unconscious after airport protesters repeatedly beat him on the head.
-A Trump supporter was attacked after putting out a fire started by anti-Trump protesters.
-When Trump protesters encountered a driver with a pro-Trump flag on his car, they surrounded the vehicle, ripped off and began burning the flag, and pounded the car. They also punctured on the tires.
February 2017:
-California GOP Rep. Tom McClintock had to be escorted to his car after a town hall because of angry protesters. The tires of at least four vehicles were slashed.
-Protestors knocked a 71-year-old female staffer for California GOP Rep. Dana Rohrabacher unconscious during a protest outside the representative’s office.
-Milo Yiannopoulos speech at the University of California-Berkeley was cancelled after rioters set the campus on fire and threw rocks through windows. Milo tweeted that one of his supporters wearing a Trump hat was thrown to the ground and kicked.
March 2017:
-Masked protesters at Middlebury College rushed AEI scholar and political scientist Charles Murray and professor Allison Stranger, pushing and shoving Murray and grabbing Stranger by her hair and twisting her neck as they were leaving a campus building. Stranger suffered a concussion. Protesters then surrounded the car they got into, rocking it back and forth and jumping on the hood.
April 2017:
-A parade in Portland, Ore.,was canceled after threats of violence were made against a Republican organization.
-Fears of violent protests shut down Ann Coulter’s UC Berkeley speech. Campus police had gathered intel on protesters who were planning to commit violence.
May 2017:
– Republican Rep. Tom Garrett, his family and his dog were targeted by a series of repeated death threats deemed credible by authorities.
-FBI agents arrested a person for threatening to shoot Republican Rep. Martha McSally over her support for Trump.
-Police in Tennessee charged a woman for allegedly trying to run Republican Rep. David Kustoff off the road.
-Police in North Dakota ejected a man after he became physical with Republican Rep. Kevin Cramer at a town hall.
-A former professor was arrested after police said they identified him on video beating Trump supporters with a U-shaped bike lock, leaving three people with “significant injuries.”
June 2017:
-James Hodgkinson opened fire on a congressional GOP baseball practice, injuring five, including House Majority Whip Steve Scalise.
-Republican Rep. Claudia Tenney received an email threat that read, “One down, 216 to go,” shortly after the shooting at the Republican congressional baseball practice.
-A man driving a white Malibu reportedly fired several shots at a man driving a truck displaying a “Make America Great Again” flag in Indiana.
Short answer, no.
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One is definitely worse than the other in pushing the envelope. They're both horrible. This isn't the beginning of a Civil War. This may ultimately cool the rhetoric a bit. If it doesn't and the rhetoric continues to escalate, we may eventually get to that point.
While I'm hopeful, I'm not optimistic. People as an aggregate, are stupid and arrogant. :(
titsonritz
06-16-17, 15:38
But I guess it is all in who you talk to.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/266197/civil-war-here-daniel-greenfield
Doc Safari
06-16-17, 15:53
But I guess it is all in who you talk to.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/266197/civil-war-here-daniel-greenfield
Quoting the article:
This civil war is very different than the last one. There are no cannons or cavalry charges. The left doesn’t want to secede. It wants to rule. Political conflicts become civil wars when one side refuses to accept the existing authority. The left has rejected all forms of authority that it doesn’t control.
Sounds like what I've been saying in this thread.
And I'm sure......hate to say it......but there may be some people on the right who join the fray thinking they are "fighting to preserve what this country is all about."
I remember Tim McVeigh thought he was doing the Oklahoma City bombing as "payback" for the Waco massacre in 1993.
The Bubba Effect has no finer example than this.
It's arbitrary to call this one incident THE first shots in a second civil war. But the current political climate is not respect for the law and civilized disagreement. If you study wars and their causes, including the 1861 Civil War and many others, wars tend to start at an arbitrary point in time after the conditions have been festering for a long time, often many years. It's also possible for things to pull back before that arbitrary point in time, and you could easily come up with a dozen "wars that weren't" in the last 50 years. Who has a crystal ball?
Voted "don't know" for exactly this.
Could it be? Sure, why not. One could argue that CW2 is already on, it's just currently in the sitzkrieg mode....
But generally it's not until after things go hot that everyone can look back and be like "ok, so *that's* where it all started..."
So, who the hell knows..
The only thing I know right now, is what everyone else knows- the current leftist mantra of "kill everyone we hate so we can all love each other" isn't going to end well.
Civil War? No.
A reason for the non-lefties to push back a little more and say "F**k this!"? Yeah. And it may include more ballsy, violent reactions to provocations, like the Antifags getting their heads busted and or shot.
Doc Safari
06-16-17, 16:12
A reason for the non-lefties to push back a little more and say "F**k this!"? Yeah. And it may include more ballsy, violent reactions to provocations, like the Antifags getting their heads busted and or shot.
But isn't that falling right into the maelstrom? One asshole starts, and the next goes, "MY TURN!" and the next thing you know it's a free-for-all.
I would think the sane approach would be to enforce the laws and round up the people inciting violence. Isn't that already a crime? We are not talking putting people in jail for a difference of opinion but for fomenting rebellion. Oh, wait......nobody has the balls to do that---or maybe the government is already too heavily infiltrated to enforce such laws if you agree with the rhetoric.
This is an easy one. No.
Completely agree.
OKC bombing was supposed to start the civil war, it didn't. This is yet another radical extremist who thinks his loony toon insanity is mainstream thought and he took his SJW shit too far.
Outlander Systems
06-16-17, 16:43
Quoting for gospel.
I'm very pro-Liberty, but, like you, I've gone around the Mulberry bush with Lolbertarianism, and find some of it to be a little on the kooky side as well.
I've come full-circle to the conclusion that what we've got is the best that human minds have been able to come up with thus far. Warts and all.
There is a big difference between someone who doesn't toe the Republican line and agree with all of the far right rhetoric and someone who is democrat leaning. I have never cast a single vote for someone with a D beside their name but that doesn't mean I find what the clowns do in the Republican Party to be good for the country or even competent. Unfortunately nuance is lost and so you can't even disagree with Trump around here without having liberal and socialist claims flung in your direction.
If I had to apply a label to myself it would likely be Libertarian but even they are a bit too loony for my tastes. It sure as hell would not be democrat.
But isn't that falling right into the maelstrom? One asshole starts, and the next goes, "MY TURN!" and the next thing you know it's a free-for-all.
I would think the sane approach would be to enforce the laws and round up the people inciting violence. Isn't that already a crime? We are not talking putting people in jail for a difference of opinion but for fomenting rebellion. Oh, wait......nobody has the balls to do that---or maybe the government is already too heavily infiltrated to enforce such laws if you agree with the rhetoric.
Oh well, they are the ones who have "started" it, who have significantly ratcheted it up. It would only be logical to assume some on the other side are going to get tired of it, law-abiding or not. I'm not talking wantonly mowing down a lefty protest or such, but perhaps deadly force being used the next time a bike lock gets crashed into someone's skull? Something along those lines. Or more in-your-face reactions to in-your-face libtard rants.
Look, I avoid protests and such as I don't go looking for trouble. Got better things to do. That said, I also tend to have a VERY short patience level with asinine people, and these lefties fit that description. I wouldn't hesitate to clock some rabid, frothing libtard screaming in my face, but that's just me. :rolleyes: I'm not the type to back down, for better or for worse, and to my detriment even if for principle alone. I'm not stupid mind you, just stubborn.
Doc Safari
06-16-17, 16:57
Oh well, they are the ones who have "started" it, who have significantly ratcheted it up. It would only be logical to assume some on the other side are going to get tired of it, law-abiding or not. I'm not talking wantonly mowing down a lefty protest or such, but perhaps deadly force being used the next time a bike lock gets crashed into someone's skull? Something along those lines. Or more in-your-face reactions to in-your-face libtard rants.
Look, I avoid protests and such as I don't go looking for trouble. Got better things to do. That said, I also tend to have a VERY short patience level with asinine people, and these lefties fit that description. I wouldn't hesitate to clock some rabid, frothing libtard screaming in my face, but that's just me. :rolleyes:
If I'm getting your point: the solution is along the lines of potential victims carrying concealed and smacking down attacks from political opponents as they happen, not in the form of revenge attacks.
I like it. I like it.
If I'm getting your point: the solution is along the lines of potential victims carrying concealed and smacking down attacks from political opponents as they happen, not in the form of revenge attacks.
I like it. I like it.
Not even necessarily CCW'ing per se (though certainly a good idea), but more an attitude and determination that enough is enough. The finer points of a given situation will dictate how you react, but acquiescence and retreating aren't any longer options. Common tactical sense should obviously rule, but the "Moral High Road"? Nah. Get down and dirty, give it back in spades.
I don't believe so. I think we've had this in the past and came out ok. This time is no different. I wasn't around for the 60s but weren't there violent race riots and lots of anti cop mentality? Did it seem like civil war was about to happen at that time? I'm sure it did.
Of course there also was an actual civil war......
Good to stay positive but prepared
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I don't think we are even close to that point. I'm sure I'll be surprised as heck and caught totally off guard if an when an actual civil war broke out.
I'll bet some of the folks who are saying 'we've reached the tipping point' are also ones who went out and bought up all the positive pressure haz mat suits a couple years ago during the ebola panic.
That was another case of the media working folks into a frenzy.
BoringGuy45
06-16-17, 17:41
We've been debating on this site for awhile whether or not the Left has the balls for a war. Some may, but most don't. I think many, if not most, want a war; they'd love nothing more than something like the The Troubles to start in the U.S. They'd love for there to be a terrorist group that sniped a few cops and soldiers every day, bombed GOP rallies, kidnapped right wing activists and politicians and left their bodies in a ditch with their throats cut. But they want someone else to do it. Most leftists would rather just tweet and hashtag their support for whoever does this.
Now, if Antifa were to actually arm themselves, start actually gunning down opponents, and were willing to actually put their lives on the line and fight those who actually fight back, I'd be more worried. But for now, they go from protesting the police to pleading for police help the second after they get punched in the nose. That's not a group willing to make a final stand at the Alamo.
We've been debating on this site for awhile whether or not the Left has the balls for a war. Some may, but most don't. I think many, if not most, want a war; they'd love nothing more than something like the The Troubles to start in the U.S. They'd love for there to be a terrorist group that sniped a few cops and soldiers every day, bombed GOP rallies, kidnapped right wing activists and politicians and left their bodies in a ditch with their throats cut. But they want someone else to do it. Most leftists would rather just tweet and hashtag their support for whoever does this.
Now, if Antifa were to actually arm themselves, start actually gunning down opponents, and were willing to actually put their lives on the line and fight those who actually fight back, I'd be more worried. But for now, they go from protesting the police to pleading for police help the second after they get punched in the nose. That's not a group willing to make a final stand at the Alamo.
Yeah, most of that.
Republican here and I voted no. Just another crack pot looking for fame and unable to vent with satisfaction. A civil war is beyond all thinking of the greater American populace right now. Many Americans might be shocked by this but not to the point of mass riots and taking sides against other Americans.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-16-17, 20:23
Hopefully the 360 degree condemnation of the attack will dissuade all but the truly deranged that this is not the path to follow. For the crazies, it is probably more likely they were going to pop, this just gives them a vector.
I don't think this one incident will do it, but you've got some real wackos arming up and it could get ugly. This ANTIFA group is starting to resemble a domestic terrorist group. But then you have some nut jobs on the extreme far right fringe who are just bat shit crazy. Kind of a borderline neo-Nazi type of movement filled with Sandy Hook deniers, Moon Landing deniers, 911 Truthers, Holocaust Deniers, who babble nonsense all the time about one conspiracy or another. Some claim to have seen the murdered Sandy Hook children singing in a Super Bowl chorus line. A lot of this latter bunch are labeled Alt-Right, whatever that is.
Now I am about as Conservative as you can get, fiscally and socially. I'm Pro-Life, Pro-2nd Amendment, but I have some Libertarian tendencies as well. Basically, I want to live a reasonable, rational and responsible life, treat my fellow man the way I want to be treated, and have the government stay the hell out of my life.
I think what's going to go down is armed conflicts between the extreme far left and extreme far right. I'm talking violent conflict. To be honest, I have more in common with the far right, but I'm not sitting around waiting to load up and start shooting anyone. I've seen some of the militia types and having served in my capacity in the Army, these are people you can't trust to be around you with a loaded firearm. Looking at some of their weapons handling, I could imagine some of the operators I worked with knocking some of these militia members to the ground and securing the weapon.
Moose-Knuckle
06-17-17, 05:41
Civil War 2.0? Negative.
Civil unrest? I think that is the short term goal of the radical left with their current modus operandi.
To date I have not seen anything showing that the oxygen thief who shot up the GOP baseball practice was inclusion with anyone else.
IMHO based on what we know thus far he was a text book "lone wolf" actor.
Do others out there share his views and approves of his tactics? Absolutely.
Will we see further acts of violence by the hands of the radical left? Absolutely.
I think you will see an increase in armed violence over the next few years. It will occur with greater frequency than we are seeing now. Targets will be business owners and people the far left perceive to be rich.
I had a chat with some people involved in the protective services industry last night and was told they have seen an increase in demand for their services since January.
Moose-Knuckle
06-17-17, 06:10
I think you will see an increase in armed violence over the next few years. It will occur with greater frequency than we are seeing now. Targets will be business owners and people the far left perceive to be rich.
I had a chat with some people involved in the protective services industry last night and was told they have seen an increase in demand for their services since January.
Red Army Faction use to target CEO's/bankers etc.
The city I use to work for had a CEO of a high end department store chain that lived in the city, our guys would pull a part time gig outside his house after PETA extremists started targeting him and his family.
I think we will see more of this sort of thing directed at GOP members and prominent conservatives.
Micheal Savage, the political commentator and talk show host has been dubbed the "godfather of Trumpmania". He was physically assaulted outside a CA restaurant back in March.
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2017/03/16/michael-savage-attacked-outside-marin-county-restaurant/
Some head-slamming is in order for the most violent types (Antifags and their ilk) to stop this shit in it's tracks, but the question is who administers it? It should be the authoritahs, and with a different administration in the White House it may be allowed. That said, the PC, let-them-get-away-with-it mentality has oozed into society over the last 8 years and even with a green light to stomp some of these assholes agencies may be reluctant to do so. As we've seen since Trump took office the courts are mostly occupied by liberals so even with a loosening of the "ROE" by the executive branch the judicial branch will attempt to overrule it.
I agree with BG45. The antifa's are a bunch of hipster p*ssies. They want others to do their dirty work. Oh, you will get the occasional torching, or beating, but no organized, armed civil war. They just want to talk a good game, and threaten mostly.
Averageman
06-17-17, 10:28
Some head-slamming is in order for the most violent types (Antifags and their ilk) to stop this shit in it's tracks, but the question is who administers it? It should be the authoritahs, and with a different administration in the White House it may be allowed. That said, the PC, let-them-get-away-with-it mentality has oozed into society over the last 8 years and even with a green light to stomp some of these assholes agencies may be reluctant to do so. As we've seen since Trump took office the courts are mostly occupied by liberals so even with a loosening of the "ROE" by the executive branch the judicial branch will attempt to overrule it.
I feel you, but..
As we have seen, any forward movement in an attempt to roll back some of this has been met at every turn by a Judiciary Branch that cuckolds all Legislative and Presidential powers. The Judicial Branch at many levels along with the Intelligence Community have been politicized to the point where it is obviously clear who they are working for.
We got after the task far too late, we will be lucky to turn the tide now.
Then there is this;
http://freebeacon.com/politics/powder-filled-letters-with-threatening-notes-shut-down-georgia-republicans-neighborhood/
Police have blocked off Georgia Republican Karen Handel's neighborhood after reports that letters containing a white powdery substance and calling Handel a "dirty fascist" were left at homes of her neighbors.
The content of the threatening letter, posted below, contains graphic language.
"Your neighbor Karen Handel is a dirty fascist cunt but I'm sure you already knew that," the letter says, according to a picture. "Take a whiff of the powder and join her in the hospital you Bourgeoisie mother****ers."
"RESIST THE FASCIST TAKEOVER!!!!," it says. " STRING UP THE COLLABORATORS!"
I think it is the wet dream of the Left to bring some violence to the game.
Fascist, I don't think it means what the left thinks it means.
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I dont think this can be considered the first salvo of a civil war. Unless the investigation turns up some completely unexpected organization behind this idiots actions, this will be the work of some radicalized lone wolf. The ANTIFa are more of a concern from a revolutionary standpoint that these lone wolfs. They seem somewhat organized and funded, so if they choose to escalate their violence then things will get more serious.
This should be a shot across the bow of the media and leftist idiots in specific, but most political hacks in general that we cant degenerate political discourse into violent rhetoric, satire, art... whatever you want to call it on a mass scale without some negative consequences.
SomeOtherGuy
06-17-17, 11:08
I feel you, but..
As we have seen, any forward movement in an attempt to roll back some of this has been met at every turn by a Judiciary Branch that cuckolds all Legislative and Presidential powers. The Judicial Branch at many levels along with the Intelligence Community have been politicized to the point where it is obviously clear who they are working for.
This is my biggest concern. Our country is founded, in many different ways, on the concept of the rule of law, law being uniformly applied to all, and judges following the law and acting without conflicts of interest. While I don't think this theory was ever perfect in practice, the last x number of years really draw it into question, and the last six months with judicial blockades of Trump policies that appear 100% within his legal authority is very troubling - more so than some random guy shooting at people.
If a substantial number of people lose respect for the judicial system, things would likely cascade into a real mess.
When you look at the history of revolutions and civil wars, relatively few start from a pure outside-the-state uprising. Most start with disagreements that become disputes that become lawfare and then open warfare, between branches of government, different government officials, or the currently "elected" government vs. the recently out of office "elected" government ("elected" in quotes because in so many cases the elections were dubious).
But, of course, it doesn't automatically go on to civil war or revolution. Brazil has been living this kind of dysfunction for much of the last century. Venezuela today seems like it's about 8 years past the point where it should have had a revolution, but it hasn't yet. It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future. ;-)
Averageman
06-17-17, 11:15
This is my biggest concern. Our country is founded, in many different ways, on the concept of the rule of law, law being uniformly applied to all, and judges following the law and acting without conflicts of interest. While I don't think this theory was ever perfect in practice, the last x number of years really draw it into question, and the last six months with judicial blockades of Trump policies that appear 100% within his legal authority is very troubling - more so than some random guy shooting at people.
If a substantial number of people lose respect for the judicial system, things would likely cascade into a real mess.
When you look at the history of revolutions and civil wars, relatively few start from a pure outside-the-state uprising. Most start with disagreements that become disputes that become lawfare and then open warfare, between branches of government.
These things have been lined up, set up and derailed a number of times.
We've now got the IC and the judiciary working together against the Executive Branch, the only hope to save the Executive (If you notice I didn't say POTUS Trump) Branch is for the Legislative Branch to step up.
As sad as it sounds, the shooting at that Ball Park may finally be the incentive for these guys to wake up and take action.
A House divided cannot stand.
All this talk of Civil War makes me LOL.
Official Kremlin Transmission
All this talk of Civil War makes me LOL.
If you're scoffing at everyone you might take note of the fact that 2/3 who voted in the poll don't think it will happen either, so your derision is therefore applicable only to a minority of members.
I dont think this can be considered the first salvo of a civil war. Unless the investigation turns up some completely unexpected organization behind this idiots actions, this will be the work of some radicalized lone wolf. The ANTIFa are more of a concern from a revolutionary standpoint that these lone wolfs. They seem somewhat organized and funded, so if they choose to escalate their violence then things will get more serious.
This should be a shot across the bow of the media and leftist idiots in specific, but most political hacks in general that we cant degenerate political discourse into violent rhetoric, satire, art... whatever you want to call it on a mass scale without some negative consequences.
Had several nuts shown up armed, taken out a high % of their target, and it was discovered they were directly involved in some org vs random loan chit bags, maybe something to be concerned over in terms of what the OP poll asks. As it is, it's not even a speed bump for most people other than to support the agenda of gun control/Rights orgs and activists. Nothing to see here, and that's actually a good thing in this case. Being this Bernie supporter essentially failed in his mission, due to the fact there were armed people to on hand to put the goblin down, I don't expect to see a big copy cat movement there. It's when they are successful at it, do we see cop cats come out of the wood work, which is another good reason to make sure they are burned down asap.
I'm reminded of the church shootings some years back where the nut ball was taken out hard and fast by some armed parishioners asked to protect the place. Not surprisingly, copy cats didn't follow shortly after as they tend to do if it's a successful event in terms of causalities and no resistance and media attention. Goblins do follow what past goblins have had success with that what they have not it appears.
If you're scoffing at everyone you might take note of the fact that 2/3 who voted in the poll don't think it will happen either, so your derision is therefore applicable only to a minority of members.
2/3 is the majority, i.e. in line with my opinion...
Official Kremlin Transmission
2/3 is the majority, i.e. in line with my opinion...
That's what I was driving at.
"If a substantial number of people lose respect for the judicial system, things would likely cascade into a real mess."
Somewhere I have a cartoon of Chief Justice Roger Taney, who wrote the Dredd Scott decision, rubbing a magic lamp. Out comes the specter of John Brown, rifle in one hand and Bible in the other, in full cry. At which point Taney says, "Oops."
"Oops" indeed.
You won't see a civil war in the traditional sense where organized factions engage each other in numbers. Most of the left don't have the resolve to fight face to face. I think what you will see is the far left's perception of guerilla warfare. People in higher income brackets and conservative politicians will be targets. Attacks on small groups of conservatives, consisting of working tax payers, will be targeted as well.
You won't see a civil war in the traditional sense where organized factions engage each other in numbers. Most of the left don't have the resolve to fight face to face. I think what you will see is the far left's perception of guerilla warfare. People in higher income brackets and conservative politicians will be targets. Attacks on small groups of conservatives, consisting of working tax payers, will be targeted as well.
And none of it will compare to what already happened in the 1960s, with Universities being taken over by armed black militants, terrorists groups like the Weathermen acting with the stated aim of destroying the United States, groups like the SLA engaging in massive shootouts with the LAPD and things like that.
Today a bunch of people say shit about Trump on twitter, who cares? You can see far more violent discussion on urban themed channels and forums. Antifags are also nothing new, same professional assholes who used to vandalize cities where G8s were held. The crap the pulled in Seattle and Ontario was exactly the same 1% nonsense and Bill Clinton was President at the time, so it really doesn't have anything to do with conservatives or Trump.
These are anti social, frequently violent anarchists. This is again nothing new. The only thing that really changed is a Sander supporter who drank the Kool Aid also happened to be intelligent enough to figure out how to access some actual republicans rather than just throw rocks at a protest. He probably thought he was going to become a facebook hero or something. His work on the Sanders campaign showed him that sometimes candidates attended events and functions where they are vulnerable. He probably tried to come up with a dozen ways to attack Trump directly and when none of them proved feasible he went to the next soft target.
Perhaps it's time for Republicans to rethink DC's restrictive CCW laws. If not for a security detail those guys might have found themselves all alone waiting on a 911 response, just like everyone else.
AUG is correct, the 1960s were probably much more extreme that what is happening now...and the 70s for that matter.
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Moose-Knuckle
06-18-17, 05:46
The antifa's are a bunch of hipster p*ssies. They want others to do their dirty work. Oh, you will get the occasional torching, or beating, but no organized, armed civil war. They just want to talk a good game, and threaten mostly.
I've always been more concerned with who funds them and radicalizes them.
Many front "community organizing" not for profits founded by the likes of Obama, Soros, etc. keep their lights on.
Think ACORN, Organizing for Action, Open Society, Move-On, et al. tons more no one has ever heard of . . .
"Antifa" is the current boogeyman of the far right. Among other things, it's a convenient vehicle for channeling EOTWAKI "collapse of society - mayhem in the streets" self-defense fantasies. I mean, what good is owning an AR15 and a "battle belt" if you never get to defend yourself with it?
"Antifa" is the current boogeyman of the far right. Among other things, it's a convenient vehicle for channeling EOTWAKI "collapse of society - mayhem in the streets" self-defense fantasies. I mean, what good is owning an AR15 and a "battle belt" if you never get to defend yourself with it?
If you never have to defend yourself you have won. That is the best end-game.
Antifa IS a bunch of assholes though.
BrigandTwoFour
06-18-17, 09:15
Do I think Civil War II is possible in the future? Yeah.
Do I think this is the beginning? No.
There are too many other things that have to happen first, IMO. There is much less individual loyalty to the state these days (save for maybe Texans), so it's not likely that people will rally around their state flags for another "War of the States." The political/cultural divisions are pretty stark, I don't think the "Red Tribe" and "Blue Tribe" will go at it until there is serious issues over resource availability. Until there is some severe breakdown of economy/government/resources that stresses people to do things they wouldn't normally do to get by, then things will probably just continue with everyone hating each other and little skirmishes here and there.
I don't take the violent left lightly, though. Sure, they may not be into guns and tactics- but neither are most righties. In any case, that stuff can be acquired and learned when necessary. What the left is really good at, though, is organizing and rallying on short notice. That has its own advantages.
BoringGuy45
06-18-17, 09:35
AUG is correct, the 1960s were probably much more extreme that what is happening now...and the 70s for that matter.
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Also, at the time, leftist terror groups both here and around the world had another superpower with the the ability to back them. Nowadays, the commies are on their own.
Outlander Systems
06-18-17, 09:35
Pretty much this.
One of my bucket list items is to never get into a knife fight.
If I can make it from cradle-to-casket without ever having to get in a knife fight, I'm good with it all.
If you never have to defend yourself you have won. That is the best end-game.
Antifa IS a bunch of assholes though.
When you see a separate governing body remove the legitimate governing body and impose its own regulations on the populace, then we may have the start of a 2nd civil war. This was just a outburst from a very sore loser, who is now thankfully dead.
"Antifa" is the current boogeyman of the far right. Among other things, it's a convenient vehicle for channeling EOTWAKI "collapse of society - mayhem in the streets" self-defense fantasies. I mean, what good is owning an AR15 and a "battle belt" if you never get to defend yourself with it?
There was a quote someone had in their sigline a while back- something to the effect of "my friend saw Deliverance and bought a bow, I saw Deliverance and bought an AR..."
Just because most don't buy into the premise of a full-on 1860's civil war, doesn't mean that given the current climate, being attacked by a pack of rabid leftists is out of the realm of possibilities...
....
I don't take the violent left lightly, though. Sure, they may not be into guns and tactics- but neither are most righties. In any case, that stuff can be acquired and learned when necessary. What the left is really good at, though, is organizing and rallying on short notice. That has its own advantages.
An accurate assessment.
When they feel the need to transition to more overt fighting, the materials and likely a trained core, will materialize.
Also, as I mentioned elsewhere, never underestimate how much can be accomplished with sticks and bricks... in the realm of political violence, the gun does not always reign supreme.
When you see a separate governing body remove the legitimate governing body and impose its own regulations on the populace, then we may have the start of a 2nd civil war.....
I wouldn't put it past them to try this.
Actually, per the statements on the courts' political current direction previously here, I would theorize that this is a lot more deeply at play at a national level than most realize.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-18-17, 13:46
I know that we could never know, but I'd like to see people really think about if HRC had won and this shooting had been reversed. AWB, investigations of everyone this guy ever knew, demonization of the GOP (more than usual), and congressional hearings out the whaa-zhoooooo.
We could of all spent Fathers Day burying ARs in our backyards.
Do I think this is the start of a civil war.
No
Do I think this might be an upturn in political violence in the USA.
Yes
I think if we have a wave of violence it will be like the Wiemar Republic street battles between various political factions.
I do not think we will have 2 armies meeting in the field for a civil war with tanks, planes, etc. I will even say the chance for this to happen is close to 0.
Do I think this is the start of a civil war.
No
Do I think this might be an upturn in political violence in the USA.
Yes
I think if we have a wave of violence it will be like the Wiemar Republic street battles between various political factions.
I do not think we will have 2 armies meeting in the field for a civil war with tanks, planes, etc. I will even say the chance for this to happen is close to 0.
I hadn't thought of post-WWI Germany but that's a good analogy of what we may see if this shit continues.
Civil War II? Nah.
There was a quote someone had in their sigline a while back- something to the effect of "my friend saw Deliverance and bought a bow, I saw Deliverance and bought an AR..."
Just because most don't buy into the premise of a full-on 1860's civil war, doesn't mean that given the current climate, being attacked by a pack of rabid leftists is out of the realm of possibilities...
I'm sure that we all see things differently. In my view, it is. In the unlikely event that I'm wrong about that...well, fortunately I have an AR and I'm trained to use it.
I know that we could never know, but I'd like to see people really think about if HRC had won and this shooting had been reversed. AWB, investigations of everyone this guy ever knew, demonization of the GOP (more than usual), and congressional hearings out the whaa-zhoooooo.
We could of all spent Fathers Day burying ARs in our backyards.
Don't know who to cite, but: "If things are so bad that we need to bury our guns, then its already time to dig them up."
When you see a separate governing body remove the legitimate governing body and impose its own regulations on the populace, then we may have the start of a 2nd civil war.
Is that not exactly what is happening right now? The Constitution is being ignored by those in power at almost every turn. Clinton, Obama, even Bush with his Patriot Act and refusal to deport illegals. The courts all across the land are ignoring the law of the land. Comey gets on TV and spouts a laundry list of the laws HRC broke and finishes the speech with "… but we're not going to prosecute her." I could list example after example.
It is because the left has made so much progress in recent decades that they are so upset about this set-back/push-back from all of us. They've become so emboldened by success after success that when the sleeping giant finally awoke and said "Enough.", that they are having little temper tantrums all over the place.
Titsonritz left this link on page 2 of this thread. For those who missed it, its worth a read:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/266197/civil-war-here-daniel-greenfield
If we descend into massive street battles, could it have aspects of a civil war. Meaning that the winning side will govern and change things in a massive way. It is a distinct possibility.
"... the legitimate governing body" is a bit of an issue here. I am seeing MUCH less "rule of law" and a lot more plain old coercion. A case can be made that the Republic is no longer a "virtuous republic" and that the law has been increasingly weaponized.
"Whatever" is not a plan.
"... the legitimate governing body" is a bit of an issue here. I am seeing MUCH less "rule of law" and a lot more plain old coercion. A case can be made that the Republic is no longer a "virtuous republic" and that the law has been increasingly weaponized.
"Whatever" is not a plan.
What I am seeing is the judicial branch, supposedly a co-equal branch of government, having the final say (up to this point in time). The judicial branch has no damn business getting involved in foreign/immigration issues. Them consistently overriding Trump on that particular subject is not the only overreach we have seen, and likely not the last. Federal judges are not elected, and I know the reason for that is to make them ostensibly immune to public opinion and pressure. That couldn't be further from the truth these days.
I'm not a big fan of amending the Constitution, but perhaps lifetime appointments to the judiciary (seeing as how they are always appointed by and aligned with the beliefs of a political party) should be looked at closely. The integrity the Founders saw in judges is freaking gone these days and has been for decades.
What I am seeing is the judicial branch, supposedly a co-equal branch of government, having the final say (up to this point in time). The judicial branch has no damn business getting involved in foreign/immigration issues. Them consistently overriding Trump on that particular subject is not the only overreach we have seen, and likely not the last. Federal judges are not elected, and I know the reason for that is to make them ostensibly immune to public opinion and pressure. That couldn't be further from the truth these days.
I'm not a big fan of amending the Constitution, but perhaps lifetime appointments to the judiciary (seeing as how they are always appointed by and aligned with the beliefs of a political party) should be looked at closely. The integrity the Founders saw in judges is freaking gone these days and has been for decades.
If Congress had the guts, they could reel in the judiciary. Article 3 section 2 of the Constitution gives Congress the power to determine what is and what is not within the scope of the judiciary.
As long as the TV be runnin and the welfare check be ah commin there will be no civil war. When the dominant media finds the reporting stops benefiting their agenda the majority of the TV watching public's concern will return to worrying about the Kardashian clan.
If Congress had the guts, they could reel in the judiciary. Article 3 section 2 of the Constitution gives Congress the power to determine what is and what is not within the scope of the judiciary. The government is a gang that makes the MS 13 fellows look like a Boy Scout Troop. So criminal and corrupt.
The government is a gang that makes the MS 13 fellows look like a Boy Scout Troop. So criminal and corrupt.
YUP
the current worthless republican party siding with the dems proves the us vs them and we are the peons and need to be kept in check and controlled
they allow the side they want to intimidate and scare the sides they want by never prosecuting their choice in this case the left gets away with murder and the right gets in trouble for speaking out
the civil war if it ever happens will have to lead to a over throw of some kind ? which is kinda impossible as there is not even an actual target since its so massive
not sure we will make it out of this one with our freedoms we know now or we had in the past and I sadly do think we are going to become like Europe with just more and more control over us and less and less of our rights/freedoms !
YUP
the current worthless republican party siding with the dems proves the us vs them and we are the peons and need to be kept in check and controlled
!
^^^^^^^This! If we didn't know before, or have proof before, we do now. It is disturbing. Who would have thought Trump would be the one to expose them all.
^^^^^^^This! If we didn't know before, or have proof before, we do now. It is disturbing. Who would have thought Trump would be the one to expose them all.
Oh wait, didn't you get the memo..........Trump is a buffoon!
Oh wait, didn't you get the memo..........Trump is a buffoon!
And still the best option that we were given. I've already done 8 years of one Clinton, I'll gladly do 4 years of Trump over an even worse Clinton.
Oh wait, didn't you get the memo..........Trump is a buffoon!
Our choice was between a buffoon and a criminal. Or at least criminally arrogant. Overall, Trump's performance has been pretty good.
Moose-Knuckle
06-19-17, 04:48
"Antifa" is the current boogeyman of the far right.
Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but are you asserting that Antifa black-bloc militants are a fabrication of the "Alt-right" to some how false-flag an American Revolution 2.0 into fruition?
Among other things, it's a convenient vehicle for channeling EOTWAKI "collapse of society - mayhem in the streets" self-defense fantasies. I mean, what good is owning an AR15 and a "battle belt" if you never get to defend yourself with it?
The question begs to be asked why do you own the type of firearms that you do and attend the type of tactical training classes that you post about on M4C.com?
Moose-Knuckle
06-19-17, 05:04
I know that we could never know, but I'd like to see people really think about if HRC had won and this shooting had been reversed. AWB, investigations of everyone this guy ever knew, demonization of the GOP (more than usual), and congressional hearings out the whaa-zhoooooo.
We could of all spent Fathers Day burying ARs in our backyards.
Worth a re-post.
Amid all the bitching and moaning from #nevertdrumpf "gun owners", they seem to forget this.
"With friends like that . . ."
Found an interesting article linked to a European blog I follow:
POLITICAL VIOLENCE IS A GAME THE RIGHT CAN’T WIN
http://jacobitemag.com/2017/06/14/political-violence-is-a-game-the-right-cant-win/
While we're on the matter, no surprise Twitter has not suspended the account of this New Jersey Democrat strategist:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4277/34592154733_f57eea0178_b.jpg
Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but are you asserting that Antifa black-bloc militants are a fabrication of the "Alt-right" to some how false-flag an American Revolution 2.0 into fruition?
The question begs to be asked why do you own the type of firearms that you do and attend the type of tactical training classes that you post about on M4C.com?
No, I think their significance and the civil war that some folks anticipate is vastly overemphasized.
I have those guns and do that training because I don't play golf. It's a hobby, not preparation.
Don't know who to cite, but: "If things are so bad that we need to bury our guns, then its already time to dig them up."
There is an old Ukranian joke about a rural farmer watering his garden with motor oil. Waiting for the right time to fight the Moskali.
"Antifa" is the current boogeyman of the far right. Among other things, it's a convenient vehicle for channeling EOTWAKI "collapse of society - mayhem in the streets" self-defense fantasies. I mean, what good is owning an AR15 and a "battle belt" if you never get to defend yourself with it?
Antifa is not just the current boogeyman of the far right. This implies they Antifa are not rioting in various cities and to ignore they have sent large numbers of people to train with and fight with some of the kurdish groups in Syria.
If just a few thousand of them return to the USA with training and combat under their belt, they will cause serious problems.
Antifa is not just the current boogeyman of the far right. This implies they Antifa are not rioting in various cities and to ignore they have sent large numbers of people to train with and fight with some of the kurdish groups in Syria.
If just a few thousand of them return to the USA with training and combat under their belt, they will cause serious problems.
I'm sure we all see this falling sky differently. I remember the 60's. The dire predictions of anarchy fomented by the Symbionese Liberation Army, the Weather Underground, the Black Panthers, the SDS, the Yippies...I'm sure there are others I don't remember. I'm not particularly worked up about this latest boogeyman. Same shit different day.
.
No, I think their significance and the civil war that some folks anticipate is vastly overemphasized.
I have those guns and do that training because I don't play golf. It's a hobby, not preparation.
Well said. Being prepared is an ancillary benefit of my collecting, shooting, and training - all of which I do as a highly enjoyable hobby. I own many firearms because I'm an engineer and student of design at heart and I like having all flavors of firearms in my personal collection - a personal reference collection if you will. I stockpile ammunition, parts and mags because I want to be able to maintain my collection and I like to shoot without concern for panic buying, ammunition droughts, etc.
I don't collect, shoot, and train to be prepared. I'm prepared because I like to collect, shoot, and train.
If you call yourself "prepared" because of possession of guns, ammunition, and parts in bulk it is time to reexamine what preparedness is.
These yahoos are more likely to cause supply chain or infrastructure threats to disrupt your life than to cause violent riots on your neighborhood.
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I don't see any sky falling.
But after spending a life time fighting terrorism, I can see problems coming in the future.
None of the groups in the 60's sent thousands of people to train and fight in a war to gain experience so they then could return home to stir things up.
I am not worked up about it at all. Just pointing out possibilities of instead of being just riots in the cities, we could have shootings and bombings.
Having live most of my adult life in a country where this was the status quo, believe me worked up I am not. The impact that terrorist can make in a nation of 7,000,000 is much greater than the impact they can make in a nation of over 300,000,000.
Lets be honest did 9-11 impact most of us other than in an emotional way and the BS we must go through to fly?
No it didn't, because very few of us if any of us lost loved ones. An attack that would take out 30,000 or 300,000 obviously would have a greater chance of impacting a much larger number of families.
If Antifa brings violence back to the USA, they will not murder 3,000 per attack. It will be smaller numbers per attack. But if they were doing an attack every couple of days in cities across the land. I promise you the impact on your life will be greater than the impact of 9-11.
I was paid to be cold and clinical about terrorism, so the sky is never falling for me. It is just a mind game as of now trying to think about why all these people have gone to Syria. Is it the girls? Is it the beaches? Is it the food? Is it because expedia was running a great deals on a tour? Were they the modern incarnation of the Americans that went to fight in the Spanish civil war?
You tell me.
If you call yourself "prepared" because of possession of guns, ammunition, and parts in bulk it is time to reexamine what preparedness is.
These yahoos are more likely to cause supply chain or infrastructure threats to disrupt your life than to cause violent riots on your neighborhood.
No question in my mind that we have different perceptions of "preparedness" and the need for it.
No question in my mind that we have different perceptions of "preparedness" and the need for it.
Cool, if you think possessions makes you prepared that's all good and well. That's like saying a full tank of gas is all you need and you can forget carrying a spare tire that you don't know how to change.
Good luck with that.
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Cool, if you think possessions makes you prepared that's all good and well. That's like saying a full tank of gas is all you need and you can forget carrying a spare tire that you don't know how to change.
Good luck with that.
Thanks. We are both entitled to our respective fantasies. Good luck with yours too.
Doc Safari
06-19-17, 10:28
Personally, I don't think anyone is ever truly "prepared." You keep your powder dry and your pantry full but you can never know from what direction trouble is going to come.
My personal opinion on this shooting is that he's just a nut case, but the problem is there are other nut cases, and some of them may take this incident as their excuse to do whatever and over the long run that could make society degenerate into another civil war.
Maybe it's unlikely? I don't know. All I know is that the left has an agenda to transform society and even if they won't admit it publicly a lot of the fringe-level elites are quietly approving of what the shooter did. THAT is why this country is in grave danger--at least in the long run.
Keep in mind also that big-money players like George Soros, or an unfriendly foreign government, for example, could be financing factions that promote unrest.
"Antifa" is the current boogeyman of the far right. Among other things, it's a convenient vehicle for channeling EOTWAKI "collapse of society - mayhem in the streets" self-defense fantasies. I mean, what good is owning an AR15 and a "battle belt" if you never get to defend yourself with it?
I'm sure that we all see things differently. In my view, it is. In the unlikely event that I'm wrong about that...well, fortunately I have an AR and I'm trained to use it.
Perhaps you live in a more rural part of your state. I live in the suburbs of and work downtown in a large metro area. We haven't had any major Antifa demonstrations yet, but we have had the NBPP and BLM protests recently. While they were mostly PG~PG13 in regards to their actions and antics it reaffirmed for me my reasoning to CC all the time that I am outside of my home. And after watching a documentary on the 25th anniversary of the Rodney King Riots I decided to keep a couple more mags in the car.
I'll be damned if I'm gonna let what happened to people like Reginald Denny happen to me without taking a few of the sumbitches with me.
In this day and age of the social media "Spontaneous Protest" one can never bee too careful. You may turn a corner on a street and find yourself surrounded by people who don't like you simply because your skin is the wrong color or you put the wrong bumper sticker on your car.
............If Antifa brings violence back to the USA, they will not murder 3,000 per attack. It will be smaller numbers per attack. But if they were doing an attack every couple of days in cities across the land. I promise you the impact on your life will be greater than the impact of 9-11...............
This is my take on the situation. It won't be large numbers, it will be smaller numbers of victims with greater frequency.
Cool, if you think possessions makes you prepared that's all good and well. That's like saying a full tank of gas is all you need and you can forget carrying a spare tire that you don't know how to change.
Good luck with that.
I think that HMAC is too nice to say this, so I will...
You need to reexamine the lens through which you are looking at his preparedness, he is a surgeon, it was a minimum of 8 years schooling, plus residency, plus the years of practice.
If he was incapable of feeding or protecting himself or his family, which I'm sure is not the case, anyone with any sense at all would most certainly take care of those needs for him.
That is probably the reality of his particular circumstance.
I think that HMAC is too nice to say this, so I will...
You need to reexamine the lens through which you are looking at his preparedness, he is a surgeon, it was a minimum of 8 years schooling, plus residency, plus the years of practice.
If he was incapable of feeding or protecting himself or his family, which I'm sure is not the case, anyone with any sense at all would most certainly take care of those needs for him.
That is probably the reality of his particular circumstance.
He responded to me. I don't care what he does, frankly.
I didn't examine anything about his preparedness. I made a simple statement, without addressing anyone, that simply stockpiling guns and ammo doesn't make one prepared. If you believe it does, then good for you, have a cookie.
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I know that we could never know, but I'd like to see people really think about if HRC had won and this shooting had been reversed. AWB, investigations of everyone this guy ever knew, demonization of the GOP (more than usual), and congressional hearings out the whaa-zhoooooo.
We could of all spent Fathers Day burying ARs in our backyards.
I'm pretty sure if HRC had gotten the election, all the gun burying would have been done by end of March... :laugh:
Found an interesting article linked to a European blog I follow:
POLITICAL VIOLENCE IS A GAME THE RIGHT CAN’T WIN
http://jacobitemag.com/2017/06/14/political-violence-is-a-game-the-right-cant-win/
https://media.giphy.com/media/nTL3uvkjwhDIA/giphy.gif
That should be stickied at the top of GD here...
There's so much truth to that article that I've seen for myself (hell, done myself), it's not even funny.
One of the things that plays a role in all that, but the article misses, is the "hobbyism" aspect of it all- in the same vein as the folks that go out an start a YT channel or blog, the shooting crowd can go on and on about what scope or camo pattern is best, and half of them can't even formulate a response to their expected potential personal threats ( forget political violence for the moment- just think daily CCW stuff), or a coherent planned course of action for dealing with them. But they're "prepared for anything" because they own guns and shoot. Or you get the folks all stocked up for "la revolucion part 2", and they can go on and on for days about all their preps, but you'll get a completely blank stare if you ask them who/what they're going to shoot first and how many bodies they're bringing to the fight... Because it's just a mostly theoretical hobby, not a means to protect or advance a political goal. The same reason when faced with the potential of overwhelming long-term politics counter to their own, most think of where to bury their guns, not where to point them.
While we're on the matter, no surprise Twitter has not suspended the account of this New Jersey Democrat strategist:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4277/34592154733_f57eea0178_b.jpg
I love these asshats.
Can you imagine the hue and cry if the tagline there was the opposite? #HuntDemocrats, or #Hunt[insert your favorite leftist group here]
OHMAHGAWDTHERACISMUHLISHASARECOMINGFORUSALREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
:rolleyes:
Averageman
06-19-17, 14:54
The very disappointing fact seem to be that there is an entire political party that call themselves "Conservative", yet they continue to operate unprepared and without a contingency plan.
That they have been surprised by someone actually resorting to violence is simply amazing. The folks across the isle to include the guy who ran for VP have been calling for it since Hillary Clinton lost the election.
Perhaps it would appear to be rude to have called them on it by pointing that out?
They were no more prepared for this than to replace Obamacare or tax reform.
While we're on the matter, no surprise Twitter has not suspended the account of this New Jersey Democrat strategist:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4277/34592154733_f57eea0178_b.jpg
Not surprised that this douche canoe is from my neck of the woods. God I can't wait to move out. Wife just graduated... clock is ticking...
Moose-Knuckle
06-20-17, 03:38
No, I think their significance and the civil war that some folks anticipate is vastly overemphasized.
Gottcha, I didn't think that is what you were implying. Most people had never even heard of Antifa until after Trump won the election. Before that it was BLM, before them it was Occupy. Antifa is being funded and given the spotlight for now.
I have those guns and do that training because I don't play golf. It's a hobby, not preparation.
I'm always interested to hear how people got into guns, specifically "tactical" firearms. For me at this point I'll probably never be able to afford to be a collector, not a hunter, nor a hobbyist, I got into EBR's from my father who emphasized self-preservation.
Moose-Knuckle
06-20-17, 04:12
I don't see any sky falling.
But after spending a life time fighting terrorism, I can see problems coming in the future.
None of the groups in the 60's sent thousands of people to train and fight in a war to gain experience so they then could return home to stir things up.
I am not worked up about it at all. Just pointing out possibilities of instead of being just riots in the cities, we could have shootings and bombings.
Having live most of my adult life in a country where this was the status quo, believe me worked up I am not. The impact that terrorist can make in a nation of 7,000,000 is much greater than the impact they can make in a nation of over 300,000,000.
Lets be honest did 9-11 impact most of us other than in an emotional way and the BS we must go through to fly?
No it didn't, because very few of us if any of us lost loved ones. An attack that would take out 30,000 or 300,000 obviously would have a greater chance of impacting a much larger number of families.
If Antifa brings violence back to the USA, they will not murder 3,000 per attack. It will be smaller numbers per attack. But if they were doing an attack every couple of days in cities across the land. I promise you the impact on your life will be greater than the impact of 9-11.
I was paid to be cold and clinical about terrorism, so the sky is never falling for me. It is just a mind game as of now trying to think about why all these people have gone to Syria. Is it the girls? Is it the beaches? Is it the food? Is it because expedia was running a great deals on a tour? Were they the modern incarnation of the Americans that went to fight in the Spanish civil war?
You tell me.
Great post.
It's been awhile but Mark Levin dedicated a show once to educate his audience on the history of the Ottoman–German Alliance and the type of terror tactics used on settlements and villages.
We are witnessing some among the radical left receiving training/combat experience. Much like how the reds and the jihadis cells were all chummy during the Cold War.
I'm honestly a little surprised that we haven't seen Mumbai and Nairobi style attacks here on soft targets; malls, concerts, sporting events. This also takes into account the Islamic enclaves that are essentially para-military training camps right here in CONUS. There is one outside of Houston within close proximity to vital infrastructure of the energy sector. The Pakistan-based Jamaat al-Fuqra's main US front group, Muslims of the Americas have twenty-two such enclaves around the country.
Moose-Knuckle
06-20-17, 04:44
That should be stickied at the top of GD here...
There's so much truth to that article that I've seen for myself (hell, done myself), it's not even funny.
One of the things that plays a role in all that, but the article misses, is the "hobbyism" aspect of it all- in the same vein as the folks that go out an start a YT channel or blog, the shooting crowd can go on and on about what scope or camo pattern is best, and half of them can't even formulate a response to their expected potential personal threats ( forget political violence for the moment- just think daily CCW stuff), or a coherent planned course of action for dealing with them. But they're "prepared for anything" because they own guns and shoot. Or you get the folks all stocked up for "la revolucion part 2", and they can go on and on for days about all their preps, but you'll get a completely blank stare if you ask them who/what they're going to shoot first and how many bodies they're bringing to the fight... Because it's just a mostly theoretical hobby, not a means to protect or advance a political goal. The same reason when faced with the potential of overwhelming long-term politics counter to their own, most think of where to bury their guns, not where to point them.
Spot on.
In life, I'm the "gray man" I'm not a tactical Timmy.
But even on gun forums such as this one I've witnessed people assert that if you keep a loaded firearm within arms reach while in your home or CCW when you set the trash by the curb that you are simply being paranoid. The world is this big happy place where bad things don't ever happen to good people based upon their zip code. I chalk that mentality up to naivety. Generally people live in a cozy, comfortable, ultra-pasteurized bubble until they don't. Then and only then after the moment of truth presents itself they receive a harsh does of reality and make adjustments accordingly provided they survived their travail.
That article highlighted why radical tactics work for the left because of the climate of political correctness they have been cultivating for over fifty years of Cultural Marxism.
I love these asshats.
Can you imagine the hue and cry if the tagline there was the opposite? #HuntDemocrats, or #Hunt[insert your favorite leftist group here]
OHMAHGAWDTHERACISMUHLISHASARECOMINGFORUSALREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
:rolleyes:
Yeah the double standards and level of hypocrisy are unprecedented. In the digital age all of their rhetoric is preserved and will be judged accordingly by future generations.
Moose-Knuckle
06-20-17, 05:32
The now defunct Democratic Socialist Club of the University of Georgia Tweeted last month advocating the beheading of Republican lawmakers.
Didn't make the MSM headlines.
http://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/262072561-story
The Democrats are like Islamists. If you aren't in the cult, you are evil and thus fair game.
I'm always interested to hear how people got into guns, specifically "tactical" firearms. For me at this point I'll probably never be able to afford to be a collector, not a hunter, nor a hobbyist, I got into EBR's from my father who emphasized self-preservation.
As a kid I shot at a local club at least once a month with my dad. There were many MG collectors/shooters at this range and I was intrigued by such firearms beginning around age 8, when a very nice older gentleman allowed me to shoot his fullauto UZI. Then there were the movies and TV shows of my youth. I am a child of the 80s/90s - Die Hard, Predator, Commando, Miami Vice, et al solidified the piquing of my interest in MGs and black rifles. I was interested in these non-traditional firearms from a young age.
Then came 1994 when the democrats pushed through the AW ban. I was 17 years old and the fact that a group of elected officials banned these items really raised my ire, solidified the fact that I was never going to vote "D", and spurred my desire to start owning and shooting these firearms. I was too young to have been emotionally affected/outraged by the 86 MG ban at the time of its passage. I am outraged by it and the 68 GCA now. The passage of the Crime Bill was my solidifying moment.
I spent 2000-2010 adding many black rifles, fullautos, parts, and accessories to my collection - much of which was admittedly driven by the frank aggressive attack on the 2a by the Dems, which fueled my own desire to hoard all that I could before there may potentially be no more. Honestly, had their push not been so over reaching, so aggressive, I probably would own a fourth of what I do. Their drive to ban pushed me off the fence. Whereas had they not made this constant push for more restriction, I likely would have remained a fence sitter - looking at the items I wanted to buy, while thinking "one day, not yet".
At some point in the early/mid 2000s, I transitioned from being a collector/hoarder to actually shooting and learning to be proficient with everything in my collection. I am a surgeon and in my professional life this translates to always thinking several steps ahead, having several contingency plans, etc. This is true in my personal life as well. So while the genesis of my being prepared is not simply for the sake of being prepared, my personal life philosophy is one that translates to my being prepared for contingencies. I shoot/train because I enjoy doing so. I collect because I enjoy doing so. And independent of shooting, training, and collecting I am prepared.
Then came 1994 when the democrats pushed through the AW ban. I was 17 years old and the fact that a group of elected officials banned these items really raised my ire, solidified the fact that I was never going to vote "D", and spurred my desire to start owning and shooting these firearms. I was too young to have been emotionally affected/outraged by the 86 MG ban at the time of its passage. I am outraged by it and the 68 GCA now. The passage of the Crime Bill was my solidifying moment.
The one that got me about the 94 ban was most people assumed it would be a complete ban like the 89 import ban. Everyone really thought that would be the end of all of it just like the door got closed forever on HKs, AKs and FALs. More than a few people thought it would be a "turn them in" ban on everything and I knew a lot of folks who were trying to sell off some of their high price stuff like AUGs, HK94s and similar stuff out of fear they'd be banned from ownership anyway.
The Democrats are like Islamists. If you aren't in the cult, you are evil and thus fair game.
Very accurate and succinct way to phrase this.
Fair warning: I'm stealing this quote and re-using it early and often. I'll credit "Biggy" on M4C.
I'm sure we all see this falling sky differently. I remember the 60's. The dire predictions of anarchy fomented by the Symbionese Liberation Army, the Weather Underground, the Black Panthers, the SDS, the Yippies...I'm sure there are others I don't remember. I'm not particularly worked up about this latest boogeyman. Same shit different day.
.
You write as if the groups mentioned have gone away. They have not, they have simply changed tactics from bombings and assassination to subversion from within. Who do you think controls the public education system? Who do you think controls the news we read, see, hear?
You write as if the groups mentioned have gone away. They have not, they have simply changed tactics from bombings and assassination to subversion from within. Who do you think controls the public education system? Who do you think controls the news we read, see, hear?
Well the SLA sorta went away. That's one at least. The founders of The Weathermen are living comfortably in Chicago as a university professor and a lawyer. Just bizarre.
The one that got me about the 94 ban was most people assumed it would be a complete ban like the 89 import ban. Everyone really thought that would be the end of all of it just like the door got closed forever on HKs, AKs and FALs. More than a few people thought it would be a "turn them in" ban on everything and I knew a lot of folks who were trying to sell off some of their high price stuff like AUGs, HK94s and similar stuff out of fear they'd be banned from ownership anyway.
I remember how confused everyone was immediately after the ban. I took a Colt 6731 upper (6721 sans bayonet lug) to a gunsmith to have the flash hider swapped for a Vortex (yeah, I know it's ridiculous but I was 18yo, had no tools with which to work on the AR and didn't know what I didn't know). I also asked about swapping the A2 stock for a CAR/M4 stock. The smith told me it was illegal to swap the stocks. I told him it was a pre-ban rifle and he said it didn't matter, that the rifle must stay in the same configuration as it was at the time of the ban. Then there were people claiming that pre-94 full capacity mags could not be used in post-ban configuration rifles. And others that claimed a LE only marking on the lower made it illegal for a non-LE officer to own even if in post-ban configuration. People just made up "rules".
I remember how confused everyone was immediately after the ban. I took a Colt 6731 upper (6721 sans bayonet lug) to a gunsmith to have the flash hider swapped for a Vortex (yeah, I know it's ridiculous but I was 18yo, had no tools with which to work on the AR and didn't know what I didn't know). I also asked about swapping the A2 stock for a CAR/M4 stock. The smith told me it was illegal to swap the stocks. I told him it was a pre-ban rifle and he said it didn't matter, that the rifle must stay in the same configuration as it was at the time of the ban. Then there were people claiming that pre-94 full capacity mags could not be used in post-ban configuration rifles. And others that claimed a LE only marking on the lower made it illegal for a non-LE officer to own even if in post-ban configuration. People just made up "rules".
Yeah, they were even less informed than the 922r self enforcement crowd. As soon as "parts kits" guns became a thing every time you posted a photo people would ask what followers and floor plates you were using and crap like that. And if you swapped the US compliant magazine with an imported magazine, people acted like you posted a picture of 2 kilos of pure heroin on the internet.
Yeah, they were even less informed than the 922r self enforcement crowd. As soon as "parts kits" guns became a thing every time you posted a photo people would ask what followers and floor plates you were using and crap like that. And if you swapped the US compliant magazine with an imported magazine, people acted like you posted a picture of 2 kilos of pure heroin on the internet.
For the life of me I've never understood those douchebags... But then again I've gotten to a point in life where I'm pretty indifferent to most all weapon related regulatory offenses.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Moose-Knuckle
06-21-17, 03:28
As a kid I shot at a local club at least once a month with my dad. There were many MG collectors/shooters at this range and I was intrigued by such firearms beginning around age 8, when a very nice older gentleman allowed me to shoot his fullauto UZI. Then there were the movies and TV shows of my youth. I am a child of the 80s/90s - Die Hard, Predator, Commando, Miami Vice, et al solidified the piquing of my interest in MGs and black rifles. I was interested in these non-traditional firearms from a young age.
Then came 1994 when the democrats pushed through the AW ban. I was 17 years old and the fact that a group of elected officials banned these items really raised my ire, solidified the fact that I was never going to vote "D", and spurred my desire to start owning and shooting these firearms. I was too young to have been emotionally affected/outraged by the 86 MG ban at the time of its passage. I am outraged by it and the 68 GCA now. The passage of the Crime Bill was my solidifying moment.
I spent 2000-2010 adding many black rifles, fullautos, parts, and accessories to my collection - much of which was admittedly driven by the frank aggressive attack on the 2a by the Dems, which fueled my own desire to hoard all that I could before there may potentially be no more. Honestly, had their push not been so over reaching, so aggressive, I probably would own a fourth of what I do. Their drive to ban pushed me off the fence. Whereas had they not made this constant push for more restriction, I likely would have remained a fence sitter - looking at the items I wanted to buy, while thinking "one day, not yet".
At some point in the early/mid 2000s, I transitioned from being a collector/hoarder to actually shooting and learning to be proficient with everything in my collection. I am a surgeon and in my professional life this translates to always thinking several steps ahead, having several contingency plans, etc. This is true in my personal life as well. So while the genesis of my being prepared is not simply for the sake of being prepared, my personal life philosophy is one that translates to my being prepared for contingencies. I shoot/train because I enjoy doing so. I collect because I enjoy doing so. And independent of shooting, training, and collecting I am prepared.
IIRC I was 14 when the AWB went into effect.
I remember seeing SKS's in the crates stacked to the ceiling at guns shows selling for $75 a pop and flying to people's cars out in the parking lot. To young at the time but in the fall of '04 I was devoting whole pay checks to standard capacity magazines. To this day I'm a mag hoarder and purchase redundant mags when I happen upon a good deal.
My favorite films and TV shows of the 80's and 90's were a big influence as was my father but I never got the collector bug and consolidated calibers and platforms when I really got things going.
The founders of The Weathermen are living comfortably in Chicago as a university professor and a lawyer. Just bizarre.
And their protege just spent eight years in the White House. Radical leftist haven't gone away.
"True revolutionaries do not flaunt their radicalism. They cut their hair, put on suits and infiltrate the system from within." - Saul Alinsky
Yeah, they were even less informed than the 922r self enforcement crowd. As soon as "parts kits" guns became a thing every time you posted a photo people would ask what followers and floor plates you were using and crap like that. And if you swapped the US compliant magazine with an imported magazine, people acted like you posted a picture of 2 kilos of pure heroin on the internet.
This misinformation still persists. I recently had a discussion with someone by email who insisted that the repair/replacement receivers for FAL, semi auto G3, AUG, Sig 551, etc are illegal for use in assembling a 922(r) compliant rifle. He repeatedly pointed to the import permit for 551 receivers for capital city firearms, which stated that the importer could not assemble complete firearms, nor could he sell to anyone intending on completing a firearm. ATF stopped allowing import under the repair/replacement receiver allowance due to the fact that they could not stop people from assembling new firearms if compliant. This guy went so far as to say that the original fire arm which had its receiver replaced needed to have the original receiver destroyed. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies. I sincerely hope no one destroyed their original Sig 550 for Steyr AUG receivers in order to use a repair/replacement receiver.
Doc Safari
06-21-17, 08:57
The one that got me about the 94 ban was most people assumed it would be a complete ban like the 89 import ban. Everyone really thought that would be the end of all of it just like the door got closed forever on HKs, AKs and FALs. More than a few people thought it would be a "turn them in" ban on everything and I knew a lot of folks who were trying to sell off some of their high price stuff like AUGs, HK94s and similar stuff out of fear they'd be banned from ownership anyway.
For a while the legislation was a "turn in" bill, but it got watered down during the process. We should be thankful that the only reason it had enough votes to pass was the 10-year sunset clause. I remember distinctly being pissed that the salad days were over, but breathed a small sigh of relief that there was some hope for it to not be set in stone like the rules for full autos.
I have often wondered if that sunset clause was the only thing that stifled the "bubba effect" in 1994. Could there have been more Tim McVeigh's?
EDITED TO ADD: Actually I've got to correct myself. The legislation that became the 94 AWB started out requiring pre-existing assault weapons to be REGISTERED, not turned in.
The civil war has technically already started; this time it is being fought on Facebook and the internet and on college campuses and in households.
Blood may or not be shed as yet (Atleast not on a large scale yet), but the war rages and folks are getting turned against each other more and more each day.
The divide is growing at a furious pace.
Time will tell if it turns into a traditional violent war or stays luke warm and we all abandon each other and divide the nation to the point of no return or wake up and stop being manipulated by the powers that be to fight amongst ourselves instead of fighting the real enemies as a untied front.
"True revolutionaries do not flaunt their radicalism. They cut their hair, put on suits and infiltrate the system from within." - Saul Alinsky
....And their protege just spent eight years in the White House. Radical leftist haven't gone away.
To many on the right see victory when elections and bits of legislation go their way when they should be seeing a shrinking perimeter....
The election of Trump and the resulting polar opposite reaction from both sides really says it all.
The civil war has technically already started; this time it is being fought on Facebook and the internet and on college campuses and in households.
Blood may or not be shed as yet (Atleast not on a large scale yet), but the war rages and folks are getting turned against each other more and more each day.
The divide is growing at a furious pace.
Time will tell if it turns into a traditional violent war or stays luke warm and we all abandon each other and divide the nation to the point of no return or wake up and stop being manipulated by the powers that be to fight amongst ourselves instead of fighting the real enemies as a untied front.
/thread.
If/when thing go full retard, given the information age we live in, it will take the old civil war cliche of "brother against brother" to new heights...
RetroRevolver77
06-22-17, 09:07
What it all basically boils down to is one group pushing for Socialism while the other still wanting to retain a Constitutional Republic.
There is no middle ground in that equation.
7n6
SomeOtherGuy
06-22-17, 10:14
What it all basically boils down to is one group pushing for Socialism while the other still wanting to retain a Constitutional Republic.
There is no middle ground in that equation.
7n6
Meh. We already have "soft" socialism and we have since FDR was in office. The Constitutional Republic is just a memory. There are many of us who want to turn it into reality, but it's a stretch to claim that it currently is reality, or even has been since - again - FDR.
Almost every evil that people like you and me would identify in today's situation started with FDR and his administration.
The larger battle I see is between those who accept our soft socialism but refuse to go further, and those who want full-evil socialism with guaranteed government oppression and institutionalized "some animals are more equal than other animals" socialism, a/k/a "communism" as it has actually been practiced by people claiming to be communists.* Few people actually support the latter, but not many people are even aware it's a risk and are doing nothing to counter it.
*the "no true Scotsman" fallacy should probably be renamed the "no true communist" fallacy.
MountainRaven
06-22-17, 13:10
There's a not weak argument to be made that FDR's small dose of socialism saved the republic from going down dark roads of either communism or facsism.
There's a not weak argument to be made that FDR's small dose of socialism saved the republic from going down dark roads of either communism or facsism.
I'd be interested in reading that argument... Link?
There's a not weak argument to be made that FDR's small dose of socialism saved the republic from going down dark roads of either communism or facsism.
My parents both went through the depression, and they were very conservative. My mother the doctor, would say many times through her life, "The decline of the Republic, started with giving women the right to vote. The vast majority of women aren't trained for critical thought, so they revert to type which is pure emotional thinking."
They both were not fans of FDR, but they said he did save the American people from themselves.
SomeOtherGuy
06-22-17, 13:57
Almost every evil that people like you and me would identify in today's situation started with FDR and his administration.
There's a not weak argument to be made that FDR's small dose of socialism saved the republic from going down dark roads of either communism or facsism.
I'd be curious to read the exposition of that argument. I know FDR himself thought that was true, but almost every dictator thinks he is the one person saving the nation (whatever nation) from itself and from dark forces.
This is a bit of an alternate-history argument anyway. Even IF FDR's actions saved the USA from some unknown worse fate, that doesn't change my view that his actions took the USA away from being a constitutional republic.
Averageman
06-22-17, 14:52
I've also read that FDR's misguided economic policies and Socialist programs lengthened the Great Depression.
Im not sure that he didn't do some good, but I don't believe he was our savior either.
Doc Safari
06-22-17, 14:56
Getting into a discussion about whether FDR was a patriot or a traitor is about as productive as a discussion about AK vs. AR,or DI vs. piston, or clips vs. mags, etc.
Just sayin'. :)
Economics are simple. Supply and demand. Follow the dollar. When did demand for American labor really increase? What event caused Americans to get back to work?
/discussion. There are lots of "what ifs" but there is no way to substantiate any of it.
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There's a not weak argument to be made that FDR's small dose of socialism saved the republic from going down dark roads of either communism or facsism.
Speculative at best. What we did get was a much bigger Keynesian gov't that never in his admin got unemployment below 15%, and did STRIP American Citizens (Japanese and German ancestry) of their constitutional rights..........guess what....now we have a precedent for further fascism. The stock market didn't come back until I was born in 1953. We had to destroy the country to save the country no doubt.
RetroRevolver77
06-22-17, 16:14
Did the female security person shoot herself in the leg?
They both were not fans of FDR, but they said he did save the American people from themselves.
I think we can credit wartime production from getting us out of the depression as much as any FDR program.
What it all basically boils down to is one group pushing for Socialism while the other still wanting to retain a Constitutional Republic.
There is no middle ground in that equation.
I agree with you. Now where does the Muslim threat, the enormous illegal immigrant problem, and the race wars that BHO and Holder successfully reignited fit in to that equation?
Reminds me of the old WWII comparison; how can you compromise with evil? Hitler wants to kill all the Jews...do you comprise and let him kill half?
You can't compromise with evil. Socialism and communism are evil. There are two types of socialists: the ignorant and the evil.
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I agree with you. Now where does the Muslim threat, the enormous illegal immigrant problem, and the race wars that BHO and Holder successfully reignited fit in to that equation?
Very simply, chaos.
If we go back to FDR, he was able to get his socialist programs through only because the country was in chaos and people were afraid. My parents said the people during the depression were scared and scared people will sell their future for a slice of bread.
Many people have asked me why after so many years living in Israel, I moved back to the USA.
Socialism, did me in. I hate socialism with every fiber of my being. I can't ever imagine living under communism because socialism was so crushing to my spirit and those around me.
Moose-Knuckle
06-23-17, 05:26
Back to the violent rhetoric of the left . . .
Johnny Depp: 'When was the last time an actor assassinated a President?'
The actor was at the Glastonbury Festival in the UK when he made his remarks, which were recorded.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/entertainment/johnny-depp-trump-comment-glastonbury/index.html
Back to the violent rhetoric of the left . . .
Johnny Depp: 'When was the last time an actor assassinated a President?'
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/entertainment/johnny-depp-trump-comment-glastonbury/index.html
I say they should start putting these people on the no fly list :)
they want speech to have consequences !! so give em what they want :)
titsonritz
06-23-17, 15:01
If there is any doubt where the libs stand let this end it.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/caught-on-tape-dem-official-says-hes-glad-scalise-got-shot/ar-BBD5kFE?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp
Phil Montag, now-former co-chair of the state party’s technology committee, was recorded saying he wishes Scalise, R-La., were “dead.”
“His whole job is to get people, convince Republicans to [expletive] kick people off [expletive] health care. I’m glad he got shot,” Montag said in the audio recording. “I wish he was [expletive] dead.”
Sounds like the USSS is gonna have to hire more agents. :(
Moose-Knuckle
06-24-17, 04:18
If there is any doubt where the libs stand let this end it.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/caught-on-tape-dem-official-says-hes-glad-scalise-got-shot/ar-BBD5kFE?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp
These guys are not some indoctrinated college SJW's but DNC party employees publicly endorsing violence against Republicans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-CKb3vQsi0
While we're on the matter, no surprise Twitter has not suspended the account of this New Jersey Democrat strategist:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4277/34592154733_f57eea0178_b.jpg
leibermuster
06-24-17, 08:26
Well its been building for decades. Unfortunately it can only get worse. A lot of these underlings on the left side have been suppressing there true emotions on a wide variety of political and social topics there whole life. Under the skin they are truly angry people that are violent. They enjoy hurting people and creating conditions that cause people pain.
Most people I knew that are on the left side are incoherent people that support the left.
They are self absorbed and narcissistic to the core. Its all lies from that side. No truth, honesty integrity or morals. No true compassion either. The liberals have been long since devoured from the progressive commie alt left.
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Sounds like the USSS is gonna have to hire more agents. :(
Isn't protection of Congressmen the responsibility of the U.S. Capitol Police?
The left is getting increasingly violent. Luckily, they are such pussies, they generally suck at it. Just think of the damage that would have been done if someone experienced with firearms was rocking that SKS on the baseball diamond. Luckily, the deranged idiot wasn't very good at what he set out to do.
I have a hard time taking them seriously, so no, these were not the first shots. If the shit show from the left continues, you're going to have someone on the right do something stupid in response. You can already see the line being drawn, as people are growing far less willing to put up with their sh*t.
What is up with the idiots living in IL?
IL Man Arrested by SS for threats (https://bearingarms.com/jenn-j/2017/06/22/illinois-man-arrested-charged-threatening-shoot-president-trump/)
The BND says police in Troy, IL were familiar with Pickett, responding to his home 19 times between 1999 and 2007 for calls including suicide threats and aggravated assault.
I've also read that FDR's misguided economic policies and Socialist programs lengthened the Great Depression.
Im not sure that he didn't do some good, but I don't believe he was our savior either.
FDR's biggest economic contribution was to engineer us into WWII. That was what set the tone for a robust nationalism, a motivated work force, and an amazing industrial infrastructure with attending economic boom. Otherwise, he was some combination of Bernie Sanders and Josef Stalin.
I say they should start putting these people on the no fly list :)
Won't help. They all have private jets.
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/06/20/johnny-depp-refused-to-give-up-private-jet-despite-reported-financial-woes.html
Johnny Depp refused to give up private jet despite financial woes
OH I know but not all can afford em and it will help drain them a bit more :)
still will help to be on the list I say as it marks them
Won't help. They all have private jets.
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/06/20/johnny-depp-refused-to-give-up-private-jet-despite-reported-financial-woes.html
Johnny Depp refused to give up private jet despite financial woes
Isn't protection of Congressmen the responsibility of the U.S. Capitol Police?
My comment was meant towards Depp's statement on an actor killing a POTUS.
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