View Full Version : LAPD Officially DISAPPROVES Of The Use Of The Blackhawk Serpa Holster
Most of us already know that this is a bad holster, now the LAPD has made it official for their department.
http://soldiersystems.net/2017/06/23/lapd-bans-use-of-blackhawk-serpa-holster/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook
LAPD Bans Use Of Blackhawk Serpa Holster
Earlier this week, we began to hear rumors that the Los Angeles Police Department had banned use of the Serpa Holster. We now have confirmation.
On June 8, 2017, LAPD issued a directive to its personnel disapproving use of the Blackhawk Serpa holster as well as all auto-locking trigger finger manipulated holsters. The memo goes on to add, “These holsters violate sound weapon manipulation practices and may increase the likelihood of a negligent discharge.”
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/screen-shot-2017-06-23-at-2.26.12-pm.jpg
I'm more surprised people buy them anymore.
I'm more surprised people buy them anymore.
PDs, absolutely. Surprises me all the time.
The average consumer/pistol owner? Well they sell their basic one everywhere for dirt cheap because it's junk. Most people find them next to the stacks of Uncle Mikes 'one size fits 57 guns' holsters and thinks "damn, retention? 30 bucks? That's pretty sweet!"
I have to admit, I still own one. It doesn't get used though.
PDs, absolutely. Surprises me all the time.
The average consumer/pistol owner? Well they sell their basic one everywhere for dirt cheap because it's junk. Most people find them next to the stacks of Uncle Mikes 'one size fits 57 guns' holsters and thinks "damn, retention? 30 bucks? That's pretty sweet!"
I think I paid $37 for my als. Fobus was $20 last I saw them.
Its ridiculous how quick people are to save a penny to lose dollarsssss.
I think I paid $37 for my als. Fobus was $20 last I saw them.
Its ridiculous how quick people are to save a penny to lose dollarsssss.
What model number ALS do you use?
Why are they still manufactured?
seems so,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4539292/Hundreds-armed-troops-patrol-London-landmarks.html
https://goo.gl/images/JjR45q
What model number ALS do you use?
6377 or 6378 IIRRC
Used my serpa just yesterday while out on the bike.
Works for me and my training.
El Pistolero
06-23-17, 23:57
Blackhawk SERPAs have a pretty bad rap but I like them for the range. Does what it's supposed to do.
I think anybody who is sloppy enough to have a negligent discharge is going to do so with or without this holster.
Horrible (inherently unsafe) design, it's been a long time coming.
What was DOD thinking...clearly they were not. Glad LAPD made a sensible decision.
Blackhawk SERPAs have a pretty bad rap but I like them for the range. Does what it's supposed to do.
I think anybody who is sloppy enough to have a negligent discharge is going to do so with or without this holster.
So you don't think they at all encourage a bad practice?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I had one mounted on the chest of my IOTV in Iraq and it worked damn fine. Lots of sprinting and in and out of vehicles. I have never negligently discharged one and have never seen a negligent discharge when drawing from one- and SERPA's were the hottest thing around in 2007. We all had one in my unit.
What model number ALS do you use?
I have the ALS 6378 Paddle for my G26 and G19. Great holster and some of the best paddle retention I have used, it damn sure will not pull off by mistake. The ALS thumb release feels very natural during the draw. IMHO
Blackhawk SERPAs have a pretty bad rap but I like them for the range. Does what it's supposed to do.
I think anybody who is sloppy enough to have a negligent discharge is going to do so with or without this holster.
The SERPA is an inherently bad design. In fact the engineer who designed the SERPA for Blackhawk had never fired a gun before.
Do some research on a human design factor called "affordance" if you design something for someone to interface with it in a certain way, like having the trigger finger push a button over the trigger guard, it is not unexpected that the trigger fingers function will follow that form. This is why the majority of NDs with injury involving the SERPA occur on the draw and usually occur when the initial attempt to break retention is unsuccessful.
Design favors aside, the retention mechnaiam is on the outside or the holster and more vulnerable to being fouled by debris.
Finally the plainclothes version of the SERPA is weak and unsuitable for any sort of serious use. My agency does not yet prohibit SERPAs but we discourage them. We have broken many in DT training. In February of this year one of our plain clothes officers was assaulted and had the suspect try to disarm him. He kept the gun in the holster but the holster broke completely off the belt mount.
Most who "successfully" run SERPAs like .MIL and US CBP/ USBP have guns with a long first shot pull like the M-9 Beretta and the P2000 LEM. IMHO the longer heavier trigger pull on these weapons covers some of the "sins" of the SERPA.
I'm just going to say that I disagree, regardless of conventional wisdom on here.
You'd have to be a dexterous retard to ND using this holster. Your finger is no where near the trigger when you hit that button and you should be trained to keep your finger straight when pulling it from the holster.
I'm just going to say that I disagree, regardless of conventional wisdom on here.
You'd have to be a dexterous retard to ND using this holster. Your finger is no where near the trigger when you hit that button and you should be trained to keep your finger straight when pulling it from the holster.
It does not work out that way in the real world. When everything goes right, it works. Sort of.
When the gun does not release cleanly and the shooter fights with the holster or just the retention more than once is when you tend to see ND's on the draw resulting in injury.
A great (though unintentional) demonstration of this was Guns & Ammo TV's video supposedly demonstrating the argumaent that the SERPA is safe and "you just keep your finger straight."
However, when you slow down the video, the hosts finger can clearly be seen going on to the trigger.
http://youtu.be/LXakcPB0evk
Here is the full video:
https://youtu.be/LJ2Qg4xwHgg (http://youtu.be/LJ2Qg4xwHgg)
On an unrelated note, I am not a fan of paddle holsters, but if you are going to use one, tuck the paddle in your pants as intended, don't just throw it over your belt.
So the Serpa is unsafe, but appendix carry is good to go, right? I mean, you're still only violating one of the four rules by flagging your penis, testicles and at least one major artery when drawing and holstering from appendix.
I'm just going to say that I disagree, regardless of conventional wisdom on here.
You'd have to be a dexterous retard to ND using this holster. Your finger is no where near the trigger when you hit that button and you should be trained to keep your finger straight when pulling it from the holster.
The idea any of us are: Too Good, Too safe, Too whatever to have an ND and believe " it can't happen to me" we are more dangerous for it.
Edited to add: that includes myself !
Under pressure, will you be in the mind set to keep your finger straight? Gross motor skills vs fine motor skills are why they are a bad idea. This is a dumb argument guys. They're dangerous. Period. https://youtu.be/2urjEixqrzM
3ACR_Scout
06-24-17, 14:27
Design favors aside, the retention mechnaiam is on the outside or the holster and more vulnerable to being fouled by debris.
That's my primary concern about the design, based on the reports I've heard of people getting debris into the mechanism and being unable to release it to draw their pistol. I've seen at least one account of a guy who had to actually break his holster open so he could remove his pistol after the mechanism locked up on him.
So the Serpa is unsafe, but appendix carry is good to go, right? I mean, you're still only violating one of the four rules by flagging your penis, testicles and at least one major artery when drawing and holstering from appendix.
I don't appendix carry.
That said, Appendix carry is both gear and technique dependent. Done right is comports with the four rules. Done wrong, it is unsafe as you describe.
If I did appendix carry, I would want the redundancy of a hammer fired gun or a striker control device.
I've personally seen an ND with injury during re-holstering (Beretta 96 DAO, Duty rig) due to finger on the trigger and failing to thumb check the hammer. I be seen the results of a second ND with injury involving re-holstering a SIG DAK and a foreign object (jacked drawstring toggle) getting into the trigger guard.
So the Serpa is unsafe, but appendix carry is good to go, right? I mean, you're still only violating one of the four rules by flagging your penis, testicles and at least one major artery when drawing and holstering from appendix.
I don't think we are talking about appendix carry. Mentioning it doesn't help the argument for the Serpa.
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I'm just going to say that I disagree, regardless of conventional wisdom on here.
You'd have to be a dexterous retard to ND using this holster. Your finger is no where near the trigger when you hit that button and you should be trained to keep your finger straight when pulling it from the holster.
Take your Serpa, keep your finger OFF the release and pull up firmly on the pistol, now put your finger on the retention device and try to release it. Not so easy is it?
Now, if you do it the way they envision you doing it - 1) acquire grip; 2) depress to release retention; 3) exert upward force on the pistol to remove it from the holster (AKA - draw) then it works smoothly, everytime. Well, everytime except when you are rolling on the ground and get something wedged in the release or it becomes packed with snow or mud.
So what happens if you are in a stressful situation - life or death draw stroke in a real deal situation, or, maybe just trying to make par on a timed course? Is it just maybe within the realm of possibility that as soon as you touch the pistol, you begin to yank up, before establishing a good grip, or activating the release? After all most folks' sole goal in times of stress is getting that rascal out of the holster. And we've neverrrrr seen anyone fluff a draw by failing to get a good shooting grip, right?
Because you are out of order, the weapon binds against the release, your exert as much pressure with your finger as possible and either momentarily reduce your effort to pull the pistol from the holster, or overcome the resistance of the binding. In any event you are pressing in as hard as you can with that finger, your sole goal in the whole world is to get that pistol out.
As the pistol clears the holster your finger rubs along the outside of the holster until it also clears the holster, at that point, way less than a half second after the pistol released, your finger continues to 'press' curling into the trigger guard and depressing the trigger. You are surprised when it goes bang.
To not understand how that could occur, you have to know absolutely nothing about the physiological response of the body to stress.
The Serpa is a criminally unsafe police duty holster.
Ok you want to debate this , great
BUT where's a "REAL" copy of said memo
that was no agency memo or any part of one
I've seen many LAPDd memo's and that's not one
and it wouldn't be in a Memo it would be a directive and everybody would sign off on it.
somebody posts some piece of horse dung and everybody wants to debate it as gospel.
Ok you want to debate this , great
BUT where's a "REAL" copy of said memo
that was no agency memo or any part of one
I've seen many LAPDd memo's and that's not one
and it wouldn't be in a Memo it would be a directive and everybody would sign off on it.
somebody posts some piece of horse dung and everybody wants to debate it as gospel.
Currently the discussion has gone from the LAPD directive to discussion of the Serpa.
The problems with the Serpa holsters have been well documented for several years. In terms of a complete study, one was done by FLETC before they stopped allowing them.
All I got to say, is if LAPD is just now getting around to banning Serpa use by officers, they are behind the power curve. If they haven't banned the Serpa they are FUBARED.
My department just banned them outright after a ND on the range and an officer shot himself in the leg. The design itself is the problem and works normally when things are calm with little to no stress. However, we were doing timed drills and he missed the draw and fought with his holster to get the handgun out quickly. It seems during speed drills, people do not tend to keep their trigger finger perfectly straight and tend to press the button with the tip of their finger, and when moving quickly like outlined above, the finger sometimes tracks inside of the trigger guard and voila, the gun fires. Just my observations from the incident.
Once you get that trigger finger movin'.......well there's no telling where she'll wind up. Isn't the issue, too many ND's over the course of it's life?
southswede
06-24-17, 21:21
I'm just going to say that I disagree, regardless of conventional wisdom on here.
You'd have to be a dexterous retard to ND using this holster. Your finger is no where near the trigger when you hit that button and you should be trained to keep your finger straight when pulling it from the holster.
Stop with the logic and that kind of reasoning. All it does is twist knickers.
It does not work out that way in the real world. When everything goes right, it works. Sort of.
When the gun does not release cleanly and the shooter fights with the holster or just the retention more than once is when you tend to see ND's on the draw resulting in injury.
A great (though unintentional) demonstration of this was Guns & Ammo TV's video supposedly demonstrating the argumaent that the SERPA is safe and "you just keep your finger straight."
However, when you slow down the video, the hosts finger can clearly be seen going on to the trigger.
http://youtu.be/LXakcPB0evk
Maybe he should have kept his finger outside of the trigger guard until he was ready to fire.
Tomahawk_Ghost
06-24-17, 21:33
Under normal range conditions the serpa works fine. Under levels of high stress, not so much. Especially if you are taking gunfire or have already been shot and your dexterity is < 100 %.
southswede
06-24-17, 21:43
Under normal range conditions the serpa works fine. Under levels of high stress, not so much. Especially if you are taking gunfire or have already been shot and your dexterity is < 100 %.
I remember when people said Glock's were unsafe and just went off by themselves when being re-holstered.
MountainRaven
06-24-17, 21:47
Maybe he should have kept his finger outside of the trigger guard until he was ready to fire.
He probably would have, if he weren't using a SERPA.
I'm going to say this, and it will piss in a whole lot of people's beers and cheerios, but so be it.
Everyone saying that it is a training issue as far as risk of NDs, and that you just need to train to keep your finger straight, ect, ect, ect. Most PDs, most LEOs, not necessarily LEOs on here, but most, train minimally, if at all, once the academy is complete. I've known several who think of a gun as a weight and not a tool to be mastered, not even going to touch on ones who forget to even grab the gun going on shift. You are assuming that effectively the lowest common denominator is going to be mindful enough in TRAINING to do all this. You are ignoring stress, even mild stress while shooting like a guy yelling at you to engage a specific target, where I have personally seen guys, even ones who are squared away and turned on do some really funky shit, and assume they will perform flawless. I just don't buy it personally. I especially don't buy with the general public where I have seen NDs several times with Serpas. Not saying there is a perfect holster, there isn't, but there are better holsters and that I think we can all agree on. Also, I wouldn't personally consider the Serpa for a duty rig if you paid me since I don't have an easy option to use a gun with a weapon mounted light of my choice(X300, X300U, TLR1) other than the Blackhawk thingy that I am far from impressed with. So that right there is pretty much a deal breaker for me.
I could go on, but I would end up really reiterating points already made by others. The only thing I think it worth noting is why the hell are people emotionally invested in this piece of plastic? I don't get it.
Here is a final point though and I think it is worth noting. The Serpa is pretty damn well known, I might even go so far as to call it ubiquitous in the firearms community since there are even Serpa knock off thingys from Fobus and others. One might wish to consider that if it is so well known in how it works, that perhaps the opposition, ergo criminals, might also understand how the holster works, and since Serpas are easily identified they could at a glance known to to remove your firearm from your holster, and perhaps even have trained with other criminals to do so. It is not unheard of you know. Just a thought, just a playful thought.
southswede
06-24-17, 21:56
He probably would have, if he weren't using a SERPA.
Or maybe followed the rules for safe gun handling.
Tomahawk_Ghost
06-24-17, 22:02
I remember when people said Glock's were unsafe and just went off by themselves when being re-holstered.
I compare it to beer and guns. I like good beer, especially Aventinus or Einstok. I like quality guns like Glocks, CZs , Colts, and H&Ks. Guns and beer really don't mix well together. Same with a Glock(or any pistol with the same functionality) and a Serpa holster.
southswede
06-24-17, 22:12
I compare it to beer and guns. I like good beer, especially Aventinus or Einstok. I like quality guns like Glocks, CZs , Colts, and H&Ks. Guns and beer really don't mix well together. Same with a Glock and a Serpa holster.
So Glock's are unsafe-widely known fact-just like the Serpa. Then again, some shouldn't be armed with anything more dangerous than a stick. Any not one of those sharp, pointy ones either.
Tomahawk_Ghost
06-24-17, 22:24
So Glock's are unsafe-widely known fact-just like the Serpa. Then again, some shouldn't be armed with anything more dangerous than a stick. Any not one of those sharp, pointy ones either.
No. I carried a Glock 19 all day today. I have carried glocks for 21 years mostly, with a Karh PM9 or P2000 in between. I don't like manual safeties. I just pick appropriate holsters for that gun.
So the Serpa is unsafe, but appendix carry is good to go, right? I mean, you're still only violating one of the four rules by flagging your penis, testicles and at least one major artery when drawing and holstering from appendix.
No, the only time junk is flagged is while its in the holster. Maybe during a draw, but I don't use my trigger finger to draw, neither should anyone else.
I remember when people said Glock's were unsafe and just went off by themselves when being re-holstered.
That is actually not true, and has nothing to do with SERPA holsters nor LAPDs reported banning of them, or did I miss something?
ramairthree
06-25-17, 00:08
My main issue with the Serpa is the years of people with no meaningful selection process or training under their belt parroting "their" high speed info about them,
To the point I have seen ****tards call non Serpa locking Blackhawk holsters unsafe.
In non or Serpa locking models, the Blackhawk is a dated design dragging its knuckles in a world of higher evolved, upright walking holsters made from better material with more durable features and improved function.
The holster works just fine for what it was intended to do. Carry a pistol for a pilot, truck driver, or other guy that has a pistol as a primary weapon that they will likely never use, keep it from getting lost, and not take forever to draw if needed. Or, keep a pistol on hand as a backup weapon for a guy without losing it in the unlikely case they find themselves in need of a backup weapon.
I have seen dozens of guys, if not close to a couple hundred,
With levels of training from basic Army, Air Force, Navy, or Marine training,
To former Ranger Bn, ODA, SOT/SFAUC, SFARTEC, Recon Marine, Force Recon Marine, and SEAL guys use them in intense training, carry them on deployments, and never have a ND or lose a gun with them.
Everyone's finger, at least on a M9, heads to the frame. On other models, maybe it does wrap below that.
There seem to be plenty of people that have an issue with them.
Just like plenty of people ND Glocks,
Or instructors ban appendix carry for classes.
You can find a better retention holster nowadays that is more durable, has a better mechanism, and while not immune to issues typically are less prone to have issues. Plenty of cool guys have done just fine with them in the past. Just like plenty of cool guys somehow managed to kill people with Eotechs on their gun.
Groups have done backflips to lower ND rates with Glocks. Yet they remain common. The cost of a simple gun for simple people to use, is that it is simply easier to have a ND with one, or any other non safety striker fired gun with relatively light trigger pulls.
Appendix carry is a fantastic concealable option for carry. But in high volume training with a ton of reholsters...
Well, it is higher risk than more offset carry options and locations.
When did the Serpa come out, ten or 15 years ago?
It's like someone bitching about the LS1 engine in their 2004 GTO.
If all you have is a 2004 with 150k miles on it, by all means drive it.
But if you are in the market for a new performance car,
Don't go looking for a 2004 GTO.
bulletpencil
06-25-17, 00:27
I had one mounted on the chest of my IOTV in Iraq and it worked damn fine. Lots of sprinting and in and out of vehicles. I have never negligently discharged one and have never seen a negligent discharge when drawing from one- and SERPA's were the hottest thing around in 2007. We all had one in my unit.
Afghanistan as well. No ND anytime, or ever hear of one. Hoopla.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170625/611794df373ddfa005ca3ae22776104a.jpg
MountainRaven
06-25-17, 01:07
Or maybe followed the rules for safe gun handling.
It's a lot easier to do that, if you aren't using a SERPA.
I ground the little nubbin on the inside and tightened the screw so it is now a friction type retention holster. I got it when the controversy started. I was curious as I would read where someone did X number of tours in (insert country here) and had no problems and nobody in their unit had issues with it. Then I would read where someone had X number of tours in (insert country here) and quite a few people had issues with it.
I never got my finger on the trigger on a draw, but that was in the relaxed atmosphere of the man cave. It would not release if you put upward tension on it. And it would lock if I put dirt in the release button. So it went into the holster box until I read about grinding the knob thing on the inside. I don't use it for carry, Remora IWB appendix.
First off, it's not my holster of choice, I prefer the ALS. I personally think it's a training issue, pure and simple. For over 12 years, 800 plus folks, zero issues, many others to add as well. And these are people who according to the ignorant asses here proclaim to be gun idiots. So are we simply parroting things a few say and that's our base of knowledge, like normal? Again, a simple training issue, I would like to see stats on ND's with all of the holsters and truth be known, no more with the dreaded SERPA.
Ok you want to debate this , great
BUT where's a "REAL" copy of said memo
that was no agency memo or any part of one
I've seen many LAPDd memo's and that's not one
and it wouldn't be in a Memo it would be a directive and everybody would sign off on it.
somebody posts some piece of horse dung and everybody wants to debate it as gospel.
To add to this... does LAPD have a "Police Sciences and Training Bureau?"
If you look at their Organization Chart on their website, that is listed as "Personnel and Training Bureau." Sorry, but if we are quoting a memo from LAPD, rather know it is authentic.
southswede
06-25-17, 06:58
That is actually not true, and has nothing to do with SERPA holsters nor LAPDs reported banning of them, or did I miss something?
Of course it isn't true. People pulled the trigger and the gun went off. Exact same thing with the serpa holster. If the serpa holster is unsafe, so too is the Glock unsafe.
southswede
06-25-17, 07:01
It's a lot easier to do that, if you aren't using a SERPA.
Or simply follow the very simple rules and stop blaming the holster for incompetence.
sidewaysil80
06-25-17, 07:23
FLETC has banned them on their ranges for a couple years now. As a result no agency that uses their facilty can use them. I'm sure some people still have them and swap them out when they go to the range, but the FLETC ban rippled through most fed agencies. I'm not surprised to see them being banned by PD's.
I'm just going to say that I disagree, regardless of conventional wisdom on here.
Same here. I use mine as a range holster and have no issues. I have never understood how I was supposed to have an ND.
southswede
06-25-17, 08:29
First off, it's not my holster of choice, I prefer the ALS. I personally think it's a training issue, pure and simple. For over 12 years, 800 plus folks, zero issues, many others to add as well. And these are people who according to the ignorant asses here proclaim to be gun idiots. So are we simply parroting things a few say and that's our base of knowledge, like normal? Again, a simple training issue, I would like to see stats on ND's with all of the holsters and truth be known, no more with the dreaded SERPA.
Very well said. Like I said earlier, people use to blame Glock's because they pulled the trigger and the gun went bang.
No. I carried a Glock 19 all day today. I have carried glocks for 21 years mostly, with a Karh PM9 or P2000 in between. I don't like manual safeties. I just pick appropriate holsters for that gun.
My training has made me competent so I don't have to blame a holster.
Design favors aside, the retention mechnaiam is on the outside or the holster and more vulnerable to being fouled by debris.
It has been years since you have looked at one of these holsters. This problem you mention was addressed and corrected YEARS ago.
Why are so many emotionally invested in these holsters?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You should not have to train to not have an ND.
Yes the person pulls the trigger, but the holster forces use of the trigger finger, it's a catalyst.
The holster poses an unnecessary risk, especially to the inexperienced.
It's not the only piece of equipment that needs looked at, and no one is saying people shouldn't train, but from a realistic standpoint, most people won't train as much as they should.
I don't use a holster that force me to use my trigger finger for the same reason I don't point a gun at myself while reholstering, and limit my holster choices because of that as well... and the same reason I don't use soft holsters.
southswede
06-25-17, 11:42
Why are so many emotionally invested in these holsters?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It matches those emotionally opposed to it.
I have zero problems using the holster and own several. My problem is with those who blame the holster for training issues.
For those who carried the M9 in the military, I'm assuming the vast majority of the time the safety was on while being carried? If so, that could mask a lot of potential NDs that would've happened if, say, a Glock was standard-issued across the service branches.
While I no longer use one, I didn't have any issues carrying my M9 in a SERPA holster. Even with the safety engaged, I never felt that drawing from that holster put my finger on the trigger.
Wolfhound86
06-25-17, 12:19
Used a SERPA for duty when I was with my department becuase they were standard issue (used a Glock 19). Used a SERPA for 18 months in Iraq. It worked fine, you push the button and your finger goes straight as you are pulling the weapon from the holster, just like any other holster (the, your trigger finger is straight when unholstering part). Quit over analyzing stuff and develop muscle memory that pertains to your equipment and weapons.
MountainRaven
06-25-17, 15:23
Why are so many emotionally invested in these holsters?
Same reason people get so emotionally invested in Hi-Points, I suspect.
So are we simply parroting things a few say and that's our base of knowledge, like normal? Again, a simple training issue, I would like to see stats on ND's with all of the holsters and truth be known, no more with the dreaded SERPA.
FLETC did a survey.
Additionally there has been a lot of anecedotal evidence compiled, one example:
ISSUES WITH SERPA HOLSTERS
There are five well known safety issues with the BLACKHAWK! brand SERPA holsters. At a minimum the first safety issue is also present in any of the other copy-cat holsters that are designed to release the retention device by pressing your trigger finger towards the body while drawing.
1) Trigger finger slipping onto trigger during draw stroke under pressure causing ND into shooters leg during draw stroke due to design of release.
I know of a few ND’s on the draw stroke that have occurred to Officers in Washington State agencies that occurred when shooters were using Sherpa holsters. The most recent I know of was on 11/19/11 when a Deputy from the Pierce Co SO had an ND 1911 his leg while drawing from a SERPA holster during in-service training. On 10/06/11 an Officer from the WA DOC shot himself in the leg during firearms training while drawing from a SERPA holster. I know this sort of injury has also occurred with the Spokane SO in the past and based on the numbers of this type of self-inflicted wound that I have heard of happening outside of in-service training in the state, I would be surprised if there were no history of other incidents of this happening with WA agencies.
This has happened enough that a specific wound profile has been seen which in some circles has been referred to as the “SERPA bite”. The wound resulting from this type of ND typically is described as “a round entering just below the level of the holster on the lateral side of the thigh and exiting the medial side of the thigh just above the knee.”
These ND’s happen with shooters with a wide variety of experience. From the novice, to the highly experienced, the very design of the retention device induces the trigger finger to slip inside of the trigger guard when stress is added (being on a shot timer, qualifying, being in a gunfight, etc), even for those that have been using this type of holster for a long time.
2) Holster can be physically pulled off of duty belt during “gun grab” due to inferior design and materials used.
The construction of the holster is sub-par compared to offerings from other, well known, duty holster companies. In my research on this issue, I have seen SHERPA holsters shearing in half, large chunks of the plastic breaking off, screw heads being pulled through the backing plates, belt loops torn off the holster and other critical failures in retention resulting in the loss of control of the firearm to the bad guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOBEJvMZ_f4
3) Release can be clogged with snow/sand/debris completely locking up the holster and preventing the weapon from being released.
In 2005, I was a member of an organization in Mosul, Iraq with about 6 operational members. One day in the spring of 2005, we were issued brand new SERPA holsters for our Glock 19 pistols. Immediately, we put them on our gear and began a training program with them. Within a matter of days, 10-15 of the holsters had to be catastrophically disassembled with a hammer and large screw driver as that was the only way to get the pistol out of the holster after the retention device bound up due to sand getting into it. Seven years later, this continues to be an issue with these holsters and in addition to sand, a minimal amount of dirt and snow has been shown produce the same results.
I know of a Seattle PD Officer who had his SERPA lock up on him from debris during a training class in April of 2011 (the following is a video demonstrating this from a course in New Mexico and is separate from the event I just referenced).
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid53246191001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAACnIIBGk~,NZYO3xUDM_E0TWMBUpCe8YivKyjrCCqn&bctid=1155868233001
4) When weapon is inserted in the holster backwards during commonly taught methods for one handed manipulations, the pistols can get stuck in the holster and the only way to remove it is to completely remove a screw to release the front sight.
If you look inside an empty SHERPA holster, along the back wall, there's a plastic bar that starts in front of the trigger guard and ends about halfway to the bottom of the holster. As the gun is inserted, that bar is compressed against the holster body by the dust cover, creating a friction fit. If you insert the gun backwards, that lever is compressed first by the front sight, then by the balance of the slide, creating the same friction fit. The trouble starts after the front sight clears the end of that bar. The FS is taller than the slide, and after the end of the bar clears the FS, the bar snaps down onto the slide. When you try to pull the gun back out, the bar catches the FS locking the gun in place.
This can be corrected by removing the screw that holds the bar in place, or you can slide a long narrow paddle of some sort in to raise the bar above the FS allowing it to clear.
5) With some firearms, the magazine release can be activated while an officer is seated in their vehicle resulting in the magazine falling out of the pistol without the officer’s knowledge.
On 3/1/12, an officer approached me (Stefan Wolak, Firearms Instructor for the Okanogan County Sheriff’s Office) stating he had an issue with his new holster / pistol combination. He just started using a Gen 4 Glock-17 and a “SERPA Level 3 Auto-Lock Duty Holster” about a week prior to this.
When sitting down in a vehicle, the combination of holster, seatbelt buckle and seat push the holster into a position that causes the Gen 4 magazine release to activate, causing the magazine to fall out onto the floor or seat of the vehicle, leaving the officer with only one round in his firearm. Multiple times yesterday and today, myself and this officer set up his pistol in the holster and watched the magazine get ejected as he buckled the seatbelt and got settled into the seat.
Given how common the Glock-17/22 sized frame is in LE, this is yet another significant issue with the holster design.
This is not anything I have seen with other duty holster designs. I have seen it in some concealment holster designs when using an extended magazine release (Glock 34/35’s, “race” 1911’s, etc), but I have never seen this issue in duty holsters, or with standard length magazine releases.
Training companies that I can think of off the top of my head that have banned SERPA’s during class, or at least STRONGLY suggest other holster designs-
BRTC (banned)
Vickers Tactical (banned)
EAG Tactical (banned unless you are military)
Todd Lewis Green (banned)
Gunsite (strongly suggests other designs)
Kyle Defoor (will allow them if the retention device has been deactivated and retention is only performed by the tension screw)
Wilson Tactical Training (banned)
Cerino Training Group (strongly suggests other designs)
Suarez International (banned)
Trident Concepts (banned)
In addition, I know that FLETC is currently looking into issues with the SERPA holsters due to 3 recent ND’s including 2 resulting in injuries to the upper leg with the very real possibility that they will ban them as well.
The SERPA issue is one I feel strongly about and have for many years. I have been responsible for hosting a variety of firearms training courses at the Okanogan SO range for the past three years. While we have not had any of these issues appear yet during training, they are happening enough across the country and across all skill levels that I will not allow a student to attend training that I host with a “holster who’s retention device is defeated by applying pressure with the trigger finger towards the body (ie BLACKHAWK! SERPA brand holsters). “
I have compiled this information from a variety of sources. Some was personal experience, some was personal communication with others involved in these incidents and some was from a (very) little bit of research into the problems associated with the SERPA holster. I specify “very little” research, because when one starts really looking at the issues brought up, there is a veritable landslide of individuals having these issues with the SERPA holster. It is entirely correct to say that these are not isolated incidents.
(this is from a list of SERPA fails I compiled while researching the issue, I do not know the author)
FLETC, as has been mentioned, has since finished their study and banned the Serpa.
It matches those emotionally opposed to it.
I have zero problems using the holster and own several. My problem is with those who blame the holster for training issues.
You are a sample of ONE.
Why can't some folks get it through their heads that for the most part we are talking about ND's that occur during stressful situations.
Under normal conditions the body's physiological responses to stress are not present.
If you were familiar with the cascading chain of events which leads to most of these ND's, you would realize that 'keep your finger off the trigger' and 'it's a training issue' are gross oversimplifications.
The last couple years I worked probably 20% of the officers I trained had Serpas. Largely because they are inexpensive and to the non-astute, look to be so simple even a caveman could use one.
I have witnessed numerous officers momentarily lock up their holsters by beginning their upward stroke before disengaging the release. Fortunately none of these resulted in ND's.
They aren't safe for patrol issue.
southswede
06-25-17, 16:13
FLETC did a survey.
Additionally there has been a lot of anecedotal evidence compiled, one example:
Since Glock's are widely accepted by these very same people you list as having "banned" the Serpa, I'll stick to the Glock. When using the Serpa and Glock, the trigger finger is clearly off the trigger and trigger area when depressing the holsters release. The shooter must then move their finger from this safe position used to depress the release. The trigger finger must be moved down and inside the trigger guard and on to the trigger. The trigger must then be depressed to fire the gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXakcPB0evk
This video posted earlier clearly shows this happening. It is the shooter being unsafe. It is not the fault of the holster. In our society full of civil litigation, if this holster were really "unsafe" and some how dangerous, why is Blackhawk still making and selling this holster?/! The answer is very simple: it is the shooter, not the holster that is at fault.
You are a sample of ONE.
Why can't some folks get it through their heads that for the most part we are talking about ND's that occur during stressful situations.
Under normal conditions the body's physiological responses to stress are not present.
If you were familiar with the cascading chain of events which leads to most of these ND's, you would realize that 'keep your finger off the trigger' and 'it's a training issue' are gross oversimplifications.
The last couple years I worked probably 20% of the officers I trained had Serpas. Largely because they are inexpensive and to the non-astute, look to be so simple even a caveman could use one.
I have witnessed numerous officers momentarily lock up their holsters by beginning their upward stroke before disengaging the release. Fortunately none of these resulted in ND's.
They aren't safe for patrol issue.
I retired after 27 1/2 years as a police officer. I have been involved in two shootings. This, by no means makes me anything but a wide-eyed student. It also means I know a very small amount about working in stressful situations. Yes I am a simple one. I completely understand that I must keep my finger outside of the trigger guard until I am on target. This is even more crucial when working under stress. I am also simple enough to fully grasp the concept that when I pull the trigger, the gun will fire.
You are a sample of ONE.
Why can't some folks get it through their heads that for the most part we are talking about ND's that occur during stressful situations.
Under normal conditions the body's physiological responses to stress are not present.
If you were familiar with the cascading chain of events which leads to most of these ND's, you would realize that 'keep your finger off the trigger' and 'it's a training issue' are gross oversimplifications.
The last couple years I worked probably 20% of the officers I trained had Serpas. Largely because they are inexpensive and to the non-astute, look to be so simple even a caveman could use one.
I have witnessed numerous officers momentarily lock up their holsters by beginning their upward stroke before disengaging the release. Fortunately none of these resulted in ND's.
They aren't safe for patrol issue.
Do you blame Glock's for going off due to user error as well?
It matches those emotionally opposed to it.
I have zero problems using the holster and own several. My problem is with those who blame the holster for training issues.
I don't think so.
It's just a shorty holster that encourages bad practice. Not everybody trains all the time and evidently, per all the serpa fan boys, the holster requires training.
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bulletpencil
06-25-17, 17:33
For those who carried the M9 in the military, I'm assuming the vast majority of the time the safety was on while being carried? If so, that could mask a lot of potential NDs that would've happened if, say, a Glock was standard-issued across the service branches.
I've carried the M9 in two wars. In both wars I carried it with the safety off. So...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170625/b9615dec65760e58c1225168ea281a16.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170625/71ae312ce44efe3cebe09aeda0add1ca.png
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How much real training can you do when literally every teacher and facility worth a shit has banned your junk-bin SERPA Holsters?
Do you blame Glock's for going off due to user error as well?
We aren't talking about Glock's, we are talking about Serpa's.
And, I really don't know why Blackhawk is still making them. Since in civil suits we are talking about a 'majority' of fault, litigation wise it could be that in order to ND the weapon, you do need to violate the instructions Blackhawk provides.
Additionally, far as we know, no one has been killed as a result of one of these ND's.
Personally, after someone had demo'ed to me how ND's happened with a holster I'd made, I'd have to stop making the holster simply because ethically it would be the right thing to do.
tacticaldesire
06-25-17, 20:27
I'd be willing to let the trigger finger retention release thing slide if it wasn't such a shitily made holster to begin with. Pick up a duty holster worth a shit and then pick up a SERPA and you can immediately tell the difference.
Everyone is saying that the SERPA needs training to use safely. But we all know that most gun owners (not the people on these boards) do not seek training to begin with. Let alone enough to become proficient. Billy Bob and Joe Blow shouldn't have to train how not to shoot themselves in the leg because of a holster design.
It's easy to say "don't be stupid" but plenty of gun owners have taught us that such things are easier said than done.
I've carried the M9 in two wars. In both wars I carried it with the safety off. So...
Glad you are still here talking with us, your service in those arenas has my admiration.
In the case of ND's with the Serpa, most occur with striker-fired pistols. DA/SA pistols such as the M9 have the longer heavier DA trigger pull for the first shot which may help reduce the likelihood of ND's with the Serpa.
It has been years since you have looked at one of these holsters. This problem you mention was addressed and corrected YEARS ago.
I've seen the newer versions, it is a minor change and dose not address the the issue- that the user is still using the trigger finger to release retention.
Maybe he should have kept his finger outside of the trigger guard until he was ready to fire.
He claimed he did. The video tells another story.
Here is a link to the FLETC study on the SERPA.
https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default/files/imported_files/reference/public-information/freedom-of-information-act-foia/reading-room/training-information/holisterStudy.pdf
The FLETC SERPA ban came after four NDs with injury, all on the draw.
You will still see some SERPA's at FLETC however. FLETC is a multi agency training organization with over 80 partner organizations. The largest of these is CBP, including USBP, both of which issue SERPA's along with Safariland SLS and SLS / ALS combos. Basically CBP said if you (FLETC) are banning SERPAs does that mean you are buying us new holsters ? The result is SERPAs are banned unless it is your agency issued / mandated holster.
ramairthree
06-26-17, 00:17
I think the emotional investment comes in two parts.
Tons of people have used and seen even greater numbers of people use them with no issues.
Tons of people are positive that they cannot be used safely.
People that use them with no issues don't like being called idiots.
People that have had issues with them don't like being called idiots.
In 2017 they should be a non issue.
I don't know of any military unit or police department in 2017, as opposed to say, 2007, is going to run out and drop a ton of money on these to outfit a bunch of guys with new ones.
There are better choices now.
On the other hand, if you have been using one for a decade, without issue,
Feel free to keep on using it. I am not going to replace half a dozen pieces of backup kit all at once.
It is part of the evolution of gear.
Current holsters and lights and locations of carry have come a long way since my first M9 Laser Technolgies pre Surefire model and first thumb snap release thigh holster in the 90s.
Which was light years ahead of the Bianchi I got in the 80s.
Which was a step up from the Leather 1911 flap holster ensuring my gun was always wet holster.
I don't use the same sling I did in the 80s.
I don't use single point or three point slings anymore.
I don't use a redi mag anymore.
But there was a time they were a step up from preceeding options.
Part of the emotional investment is ODA and Ranger Bn guys that have used them without issue get sick of cheeto eating basement dwellers with no qualifications acting superior about kit selection because of shit they read on the internet while they fantasize about bathing in the ball sweat of their worshipped instructor personality they are quoting.
Part of the emotional investment is solid guys with reservations about the holster while training large quantities of regular cross section guys getting told they are dumbasses without enough training by supply sergeants who brag about the years of combat they carried their pistol in combat with no issues. Typically near knee height on a thigh version while making copious trips to the FOB PX and chow hall.
The Serpa to retention holsters is sort of like the Eotech to RDS.
People have used them just fine.
Time has proven there are better options, no matter what you like about them.
90% of the people deriding either have never taken multiple trips to an objective or been in TICS with them.
Just like 90% of people deriding DI vs piston had even been in a TIC. Or 9mm vs 45. Or AK vs AR.
We live in a world where you will see dipshits open carrying Glocks in nylon holsters with open trigger guard areas that never have a ND. And Dudes with DA SA guns on safe in full coverage holsters that do.
southswede
06-26-17, 06:02
We aren't talking about Glock's, we are talking about Serpa's.
And, I really don't know why Blackhawk is still making them. Since in civil suits we are talking about a 'majority' of fault, litigation wise it could be that in order to ND the weapon, you do need to violate the instructions Blackhawk provides.
Additionally, far as we know, no one has been killed as a result of one of these ND's.
Personally, after someone had demo'ed to me how ND's happened with a holster I'd made, I'd have to stop making the holster simply because ethically it would be the right thing to do.
Well I bring up the Glock because it too was blamed for negligent discharges-just like the serpa is blamed for people pulling the trigger. But as you clearly point out, it is the persons negligence and not the equipment used.
As for the death resulting from a person's negligence, again, as you point out it is the person's negligence.
If Blackhawk or Glock did as you claim you would have done, we wouldn't have some of the very best tools available to us, now would we?
Yes, yes I am sure the negligence is due to the shooter violating the instructions provided, as well as the universally taught rules of safe gun handling. I am sure this is my there is a lack of civil litigation directed at Blackhawk. Seems some understand what happens when the trigger is pulled either intentionally or otherwise.
He claimed he did. The video tells another story.
Just like people claiming they didn't pull the trigger on Glock's that went off during re-holstering.
Serpa is a shitty holster.
/thread.
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southswede
06-26-17, 07:15
Serpa is a shitty holster.
/thread.
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Some say the same of Glock's.
I think the emotional investment comes in two parts.
Tons of people have used and seen even greater numbers of people use them with no issues.
Tons of people are positive that they cannot be used safely.
People that use them with no issues don't like being called idiots.
People that have had issues with them don't like being called idiots.
In 2017 they should be a non issue.
I don't know of any military unit or police department in 2017, as opposed to say, 2007, is going to run out and drop a ton of money on these to outfit a bunch of guys with new ones.
There are better choices now.
On the other hand, if you have been using one for a decade, without issue,
Feel free to keep on using it. I am not going to replace half a dozen pieces of backup kit all at once.
It is part of the evolution of gear.
Current holsters and lights and locations of carry have come a long way since my first M9 Laser Technolgies pre Surefire model and first thumb snap release thigh holster in the 90s.
Which was light years ahead of the Bianchi I got in the 80s.
Which was a step up from the Leather 1911 flap holster ensuring my gun was always wet holster.
I don't use the same sling I did in the 80s.
I don't use single point or three point slings anymore.
I don't use a redi mag anymore.
But there was a time they were a step up from preceeding options.
Part of the emotional investment is ODA and Ranger Bn guys that have used them without issue get sick of cheeto eating basement dwellers with no qualifications acting superior about kit selection because of shit they read on the internet while they fantasize about bathing in the ball sweat of their worshipped instructor personality they are quoting.
Part of the emotional investment is solid guys with reservations about the holster while training large quantities of regular cross section guys getting told they are dumbasses without enough training by supply sergeants who brag about the years of combat they carried their pistol in combat with no issues. Typically near knee height on a thigh version while making copious trips to the FOB PX and chow hall.
The Serpa to retention holsters is sort of like the Eotech to RDS.
People have used them just fine.
Time has proven there are better options, no matter what you like about them.
90% of the people deriding either have never taken multiple trips to an objective or been in TICS with them.
Just like 90% of people deriding DI vs piston had even been in a TIC. Or 9mm vs 45. Or AK vs AR.
We live in a world where you will see dipshits open carrying Glocks in nylon holsters with open trigger guard areas that never have a ND. And Dudes with DA SA guns on safe in full coverage holsters that do.
Well reasoned and logical post.
Some say the same of Glock's.
Why does everybody want to talk about Glocks? This thread is about Serpas.
Serpa is uncle mike's, Blackhawk!, butler creek quality.
The emotional bs here is asinine. I expect more from members here.
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southswede
06-26-17, 09:18
Why does everybody want to talk about Glocks? This thread is about Serpas.
Serpa is uncle mike's, Blackhawk!, butler creek quality.
The emotional bs here is asinine. I expect more from members here.
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The correlation is simple: people blamed Glock's because of negligence just like they blame serpa holsters.
The correlation is simple: people blamed Glock's because of negligence just like they blame serpa holsters.
Except the Serpa encourages a habit that makes negligence easy.
Serpas suck even if that wasn't true.
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The correlation is simple: people blamed Glock's because of negligence just like they blame serpa holsters.
I see no comparison of Glock to Serpas, nothing about using a Glock correctly can induce a ND like using a Serpa correctly. It's not a training issue it's a plain and simple design issue.
How is this thread not locked given the amount of emotion flying around and lack of reasoning.
southswede
06-26-17, 09:31
I see no comparison of Glock to Serpas, nothing about using a Glock correctly can induce a ND like using a Serpa correctly. It's not a training issue it's a plain and simple design issue.
How is this thread not locked given the amount of emotion flying around and lack of reasoning.
Not following the rules of safe gun handling IS a training issue. Blaming equipment for the user pulling the trigger is, at best laughable and worst absurd.
Not following the rules of safe gun handling IS a training issue. Blaming equipment for the user pulling the trigger is, at best laughable and worst absurd.
I believe it's already been explained in this thread.
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southswede
06-26-17, 09:51
I believe it's already been explained in this thread.
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You are correct-it has been explained: people blaming the holster because they pulled the trigger, resulting in an unintentional firing of the gun. This, as has been pointed out by almost everyone is a negligent act by the user.
I use a Serpa... actually a few of them for different guns.
Only holes that are in my body below my belt line were there when I was born... no extra. [emoji106]
You are correct-it has been explained: people blaming the holster because they pulled the trigger, resulting in an unintentional firing of the gun. This, as has been pointed out by almost everyone is a negligent act by the user.
You need to reread the thread.
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I'm not a cop to be 100% clear. I can see where it might be a bad idea for a cop who isn't into training or firearms and is subject to stressful situations.
I will continue to use them and leather. All good.
...
To not understand how that could occur, you have to know absolutely nothing about the physiological response of the body to stress.
I just figured I'd point out that this thread ended a long way back.
26 inf points out exactly how these ND's happen. The serpa and stress are consistent, and a lack of training is NOT.
ramairthree
06-27-17, 11:31
And yet,
Hundreds of people personally known to have repeatedly done high volume, high stress training, on multiple occasions, have done so without incident.
And this is where the argument lies.
Just as untold numbers of people have used Glocks without incident while many have had NDs.
Just as untold numbers of people have done appendix carry without incident.
Basically, fans of the holster can rest assured plenty have used it without indcident,
But need to get on with the fact it is far from the best option and move on.
Like I have.
And those greatest detractors need to understand plenty have used it without incident, and each know scores more that have, and in many cases the bona fides of those scale up beyond the detractor's,
And you will never convince them, after their finger has gone right where it should tens of thousands of times, that the motion is an issue.
To them,
It would be like trying to say Yeager's glorious performance under fire was based on the intrinsic properties of manual transmissions and the the bodies response to stress,
While they remain forever convinced manual transmissions are just fine, and it was his lack of various attributes?
We live in a world where many have incident free used Glocks to great effect for decades,
Yet people on this very board fawn over some addition to pretend their Glock has a da SA hammer while they holster.
Some think it is great, others have no frigging idea why they would add something to a Glock they have already holstered just fine hundreds of thousands of times. With each group having little chance of converting the other.
I'm sure a lot of people use them without incident, and will never have any problems. I can understand why they wouldn't want to change holsters. It just seems to me that if you are looking for your first holster, there are a lot of options out there where you just dont have to worry about this potential issue.
That's why I chose to get something other than a serpa. Outright banning them from the force seems excessive, in sure a lot of guys there did a lot of training with them. It seems wrong to force them to switch.
Maybe a better approach would be banning them for new-hires to slowly phase them out.
But what do I know? I am just a random dude on the internet.
I'm probably not for or against it enough for any side to agree with me anyways lol.
Stop calling it a training issue. It has nothing to with training and everything to do with physics. No one is intentionally inserting their finger inside the trigger guard when it comes to the Serpa issues being discussed. The finger exerts pressure against the release button, then exerts pressure along the frame, then continues exerting once it has cleared the holster entirely. This lands it inside the trigger guard. There is not enough time before forcefully depressing the button and clearing the holster to reverse that pressure and straighten your trigger finger before it makes contact with the trigger itself.
southswede
06-30-17, 21:09
Stop calling it a training issue. It has nothing to with training and everything to do with physics. No one is intentionally inserting their finger inside the trigger guard when it comes to the Serpa issues being discussed. The finger exerts pressure against the release button, then exerts pressure along the frame, then continues exerting once it has cleared the holster entirely. This lands it inside the trigger guard. There is not enough time before forcefully depressing the button and clearing the holster to reverse that pressure and straighten your trigger finger before it makes contact with the trigger itself.
Wrong.
The finger rides along the slide after the release is depressed. It is an intentional moving of the trigger finger inside the trigger guard and onto the trigger.
MountainRaven
06-30-17, 21:37
Wrong.
The finger rides along the slide after the release is depressed. It is an intentional moving of the trigger finger inside the trigger guard and onto the trigger.
Intentionally depressing the Serpa lock is what leads to the trigger finger sliding into the trigger guard.
southswede
06-30-17, 21:46
Intentionally depressing the Serpa lock is what leads to the trigger finger sliding into the trigger guard.
Hence the training issue.
Hence the training issue.
in any other industry in America, this would not fly, the fact we let it in the firearms industry is amazing.
At this point, you must be trolling.
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon...no matter how right you are, the bird is going to shit all over the board and strut around like it won anyway.
ramairthree
07-01-17, 00:39
26 Inf is correct.
My pet peeve is nothing dipshits railing against the holster for street cred when they just heard it elsewhere.
99% can't detail multiple pieces of information about like 26 Inf did let alone have experience with it and lots of people using it.
I am person A. I used one a ton in the past, And watched tons of people use them over and over a lot, there were no NDs.
You will never convince me the finger does not end up hitting the frame first.
I am person B. I used one a ton in the past, and watched tons of people use them over and over a lot, there were some NDs. You will never convince me the fingers does not home in on the trigger.
If you never use a Serpa again, cool.
If you have a couple of old ones you still use, but get better options for new guns/kit, cool.
If you are about to equip a whole unit with new purchase Serpas,
I don't think that is a good idea.
If God himself declared the trigger issues were due to dipshits only and not the holsters fault,
And that was not even part of the decision,
There are a handful of other reasons that leave you with choices superior in every way.
Regardless,
If you are the kind of guy that practices gay ass poses trying to match the coast guard guy in the mirror,
Or some turd ass monstrosity of obesity that loves to quote your magazine and internet expertise despite zero real world accomplishments,
Every time you go off on the Serpa or Eotech I get the urge to punch you in the throat.
And if anyone knows what stengun is up to,
Let him know I would like to get the model number of that Serpa he used for his 93R.
.
And if anyone knows what stengun is up to,
Let him know I would like to get the model number of that Serpa he used for his 93R.
LOL! Gone, but not forgotten.
I think one issue is that non-shooter cops are drawn to certain holsters due to availability, pricing, and branding. Given a large enough population such as LAPD there are bound to be lowest common denomination issues that occur.
We all know it takes some actual work to find/order/wait for a good holster and to most people it's just something you pick up at the cop shop with your gun.
My partner had to give up her Serpa and she had no idea what she was looking at when I sent her pics of extra Mitch Rosen and Raven Concealment holsters I had lying around.
I use a homemade trigger guard cover and string holster on occasion because it works for me and I train with it. True enthusiasts can work their own issues out. Others need it worked out for them...
Dennis.
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon...no matter how right you are, the bird is going to shit all over the board and strut around like it won anyway.
My agency just went to Glock. If you are a detective they issue a Sherpa/Blackhawk holster. I don't argue with the administration much anymore. It's cost me way too much over the years. I just shake my head and roll on.
By the way I'm going to steal that. One of the best I've heard in a long time.
Dan
I am person A. I used one a ton in the past, And watched tons of people use them over and over a lot, there were no NDs.
You will never convince me the finger does not end up hitting the frame first.
It doesn't matter that the failure rate is low, it's still a design issue. It is not always someone consciously putting the trigger finger in the the trigger guard. The more stress and the more jammed the release is, the more pressure gets put on the release.
ramairthree
07-01-17, 16:26
It doesn't matter that the failure rate is low, it's still a design issue. It is not always someone consciously putting the trigger finger in the the trigger guard. The more stress and the more jammed the release is, the more pressure gets put on the release.
Again,
You are under the assumption you are right, can convince others you are right, etc. And that it is a design issue. I realize it will not be possible to convince you that it is a ****tard issue, and not a design issue.
I am under the assumption that I saw so many use it so often under high volume, high stress training the issue is a ****tard issue and not a design issue and that I am right, etc. It is not possible to convince me otherwise.
I fully get your experiences and opinion are different and I respect that if it is based on personnel observations and experiences during training, etc. I realize I won't convince you otherwise. I have no interest in trying to convince you otherwise..
I still tire of people without a ton of experience and observation acting like their opinion is nothing more than parroting someone else's opinion. But that it is general and nothing specific to a dated, non durable, controversial holster.
****tards should not use Sepas, carry Glocks, or utilize AWIB position.
The ND rate for all three is low. But exists.
I can make the case that Glocks and AIWB are both still valid options despite this.
There are enough other issues with the Serpa that I cannot.
So it is a moot point to argue over its release system being an ergonomics/design issue or a ****tard issue,
Which ever way you feel about the release system.
Again,
You are under the assumption you are right, can convince others you are right, etc. And that it is a design issue. I realize it will not be possible to convince you that it is a ****tard issue, and not a design issue.
I am under the assumption that I saw so many use it so often under high volume, high stress training the issue is a ****tard issue and not a design issue and that I am right, etc. It is not possible to convince me otherwise.
I fully get your experiences and opinion are different and I respect that if it is based on personnel observations and experiences during training, etc. I realize I won't convince you otherwise. I have no interest in trying to convince you otherwise..
I still tire of people without a ton of experience and observation acting like their opinion is nothing more than parroting someone else's opinion. But that it is general and nothing specific to a dated, non durable, controversial holster.
****tards should not use Sepas, carry Glocks, or utilize AWIB position.
The ND rate for all three is low. But exists.
I can make the case that Glocks and AIWB are both still valid options despite this.
There are enough other issues with the Serpa that I cannot.
So it is a moot point to argue over its release system being an ergonomics/design issue or a ****tard issue,
Which ever way you feel about the release system.
Root cause matters. Industry in the US is moving towards extremely low injury rates. The firearms industry could do the same.
So the Serpa is unsafe, but appendix carry is good to go, right? I mean, you're still only violating one of the four rules by flagging your penis, testicles and at least one major artery when drawing and holstering from appendix.
Every time you draw your pistol you violate a cardinal rule.
If you aren't constantly drawing and reholstering the pistol your risk is significantly reduced - as it is with ALL means of carry.
It's the very best place to carry for many - including myself.
STRAIGHT trigger finger and SLOW, DELIBERATE reholster using both hands and both eyes.
Your mileage may vary.
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I think we should develop an AIWB serpa holster for glocks only..
Wrong.
The finger rides along the slide after the release is depressed. It is an intentional moving of the trigger finger inside the trigger guard and onto the trigger.
Physics disagrees with you.
It's unlikely I'll convince those defending the SERPA in this thread, but I'm posting the following for those who may stumble across it in the future, It's a breakdown about why the SERPA flawed from a human design factors standpoint in reference to the Guns and Ammo video, particularly when used under stress. The person quoted is a psychology professor who I shoot IDPA and steel challenge with and is an experienced shooter.
given the human factors of finger usage that the problem is that people don't do the smooth flat release and tend to hook the finger to press the lever. This is a natural occurrence given the way we use fingers to press buttons and also continues the natural motion to get the finger to the trigger. Gun design is such that the finger seeks the trigger. This is called an affordance (see Donald Norman - Design of Everyday Things) and leads to errors. They are terribly hard to train out of. Sliding the finger in a controlled environment as a TV shoot might make it easy. Under stress, you press with the finger tip and that tip heads right for the trigger. It is hard enough to keep fingers off the trigger with regular holsters or other retention systems. Putting the finger into a tension filled motion seems pragmatic. Even with lots of reps, we know that folks can circumvent muscle memory. Muscle memory must be correctly recalled (not consciously though) to be used. It's retrieval can be over ridden in stress.
Thus, to repeat myself, the discussion of 4 rules is really irrelevant to the problem. Pilots learn that they should not stall but they do and crash when the stress, systems and evaluation get out of sync.
southswede
07-04-17, 06:31
Physics disagrees with you.
And the kinesiology of the human hand disagrees with you.
And the kinesiology of the human hand disagrees with you.
Can you explain in detail?
Just my recounting...
I bought one for duty use when they were relatively new to holster my Glock 17. Had the weapon out in the line of duty three times. Two of those times for dogs. All three events were pretty stressful and my finger did not touch the trigger until I intentionally put it there. Small sample size. Just my limited experience.Take it for what you paid for it. I no longer use the holster but still have it.
southswede
07-04-17, 14:08
Can you explain in detail?
The trigger finger must be moved down from the position required to release the locking mechanism. The trigger finger finger must then be moved inside the trigger guard and on to the trigger. The trigger finger must then pull the trigger to make the gun fire.
The trigger finger must be moved down from the position required to release the locking mechanism. The trigger finger finger must then be moved inside the trigger guard and on to the trigger. The trigger finger must then pull the trigger to make the gun fire.
Which can be accomplished in one motion, and is accomplished with the same muscles.
How many people cut their fingers off with machines in factories? Did training help? No, guarding did. The fact these holsters are allowed indicates to me (opinion) that a lot of police agencies are behind the times with safety policies, although it's not surprising if they are run as lean as I imagine.
Yes ultimately the person is responsible, but the human element is a constant. Hardware should not encourage risky behavior. Contracting the trigger finger while the gun is pointed at you is risky.
The serpa issues are real. Most folks in DoD who carried them overseas don't spend much time drawing a sidearm. Especially when compared to places like FLETC during firearms training. I was in the military for over a decade and outside the SOF world there isn't much emphasis on handgun training. In addition most of them are carrying sidearms with a DA first shot making the issue less likely to result in a loud noise. I say this because the DoD use is often used as a defense of the holster but it's misleading at best to do so in my opinion.
As for the body mechanics... most folks using the Serpa don't believe they do anything with their trigger finger. In fact one writer was so confident in this he posted a video showing how awesome the serpa is as part of an article defending it. Sadly his video proved the opposite and shows how dangerous this type of mechanism really is for most shooters. Here's his video in slow motion. See for yourself when a guy who swears his finger stays straight uses the serpa.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=LXakcPB0evk
And the kinesiology of the human hand disagrees with you.
Nope. The finger is curling toward the holster. When you run out of holster, that force is still being applied, which makes the finger curl into the trigger guard. Once a certain amount of force is applied to the finger, which is what will happen when you used it under stress, you will not be able to straighten the finger before it hits the trigger. The slow-mo video that's been posted demonstrates this.
And the harder you press the more people will unconsciously curl the finger to push the button. This is human nature. If the pistol is pulled up before the button is pressed, the button will jam.
This happened to me. On the range with no timer or qual stress, just trying to go a little faster. I stopped before getting the pistol out so no ND, but I realized how hard I was pushing on that button. Scared me, both on the amount of pressure I had used on my trigger finger and that I couldn't get the pistol out.
No interest in convincing the fans, just want to get the info out there.
southswede
07-05-17, 04:47
Nope. The finger is curling toward the holster. When you run out of holster, that force is still being applied, which makes the finger curl into the trigger guard. Once a certain amount of force is applied to the finger, which is what will happen when you used it under stress, you will not be able to straighten the finger before it hits the trigger. The slow-mo video that's been posted demonstrates this.
Wrong. The slow motion video shows the guy moving his finger just as I described already. It is even in slow motion so this can clearly be seen.
southswede
07-05-17, 04:49
And the harder you press the more people will unconsciously curl the finger to push the button. This is human nature. If the pistol is pulled up before the button is pressed, the button will jam.
This happened to me. On the range with no timer or qual stress, just trying to go a little faster. I stopped before getting the pistol out so no ND, but I realized how hard I was pushing on that button. Scared me, both on the amount of pressure I had used on my trigger finger and that I couldn't get the pistol out.
No interest in convincing the fans, just want to get the info out there.
And as already been said: it is a training issue. Very similar to how people said the Glock just went off when re-holstering. Guess what? The Glock is designed to go off when the trigger is pulled. The Serpa, just like the Glock's issues were training issues.
And as already been said: it is a training issue. Very similar to how people said the Glock just went off when re-holstering. Guess what? The Glock is designed to go off when the trigger is pulled. The Serpa, just like the Glock's issues were training issues.
I don't see the point in running equipment that increases the potential for an ND to occur as a result of it's fundamental design. People can go on on and on about muh trainings but the body does dumb things under stress, I don't care how well trained you are or how many reps you've done.
The design is stupid and to not see it as such is intellectually dishonest IMO.
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southswede
07-05-17, 07:52
I don't see the point in running equipment that increases the potential for an ND to occur as a result of it's fundamental design. People can go on on and on about muh trainings but the body does dumb things under stress, I don't care how well trained you are or how many reps you've done.
The design is stupid and to not see it as such is intellectually dishonest IMO.
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Then this too applies to Glock's.
Then this too applies to Glock's.
Except it doesn't because the decision to move the trigger finger from along the side of the slide to the trigger face in order to initiate the press is done so consciously.
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Wrong.
The finger rides along the slide after the release is depressed. It is an intentional moving of the trigger finger inside the trigger guard and onto the trigger.
Wrong. The slow motion video shows the guy moving his finger just as I described already. It is even in slow motion so this can clearly be seen.
You keep throwing that word around ("wrong") as if you are talking down to those who disagree with you, and you are some kind of final authority on the subject.
What you see in the slow-motion video is the shooter involuntarily inserting his trigger finger into the trigger guard and dangerously close to the trigger. This is a shooter who swears he doesn't do this and believed his finger went to the frame/slide as you claim the good shooters do. He even did this while filming a piece to show that he didn't do it... that should tell you something. What you keep saying is supposed to happen isn't what happens with most shooters. Your steadfast belief that this is a training issue is naïve at best and makes me wonder which video you watched.
The use of any holster that requires the user to manipulate anything with the trigger finger during the draw is a horrible idea. Even if the holster was only made available to world class USPSA grand masters and JSOC face-shooters... it's a horrible concept. You can keep repeating your "it's just training" mantra to make yourself feel better, but even if that were true... most shooters will never get enough practice in to be completely safe with the Serpa system.
Of course you could video yourself drawing from one under the stress of a timer/match and let us slow it down to see how you do.
You keep throwing that word around ("wrong") as if you are talking down to those who disagree with you, and you are some kind of final authority on the subject.
What you see in the slow-motion video is the shooter involuntarily inserting his trigger finger into the trigger guard and dangerously close to the trigger. This is a shooter who swears he doesn't do this and believed his finger went to the frame/slide as you claim the good shooters do. He even did this while filming a piece to show that he didn't do it... that should tell you something. What you keep saying is supposed to happen isn't what happens with most shooters. Your steadfast belief that this is a training issue is naïve at best and makes me wonder which video you watched.
The use of any holster that requires the user to manipulate anything with the trigger finger during the draw is a horrible idea. Even if the holster was only made available to world class USPSA grand masters and JSOC face-shooters... it's a horrible concept. You can keep repeating your "it's just training" mantra to make yourself feel better, but even if that were true... most shooters will never get enough practice in to be completely safe with the Serpa system.
Of course you could video yourself drawing from one under the stress of a timer/match and let us slow it down to see how you do.
I've come to the conclusion he is trolling or blinded by stubbornness. It's the same antiquated thinking that got people injured and killed in factories for decades that we just started to realize. You don't train around equipment, you design equipment around humans. Safety is important with all machinery, even more so with guns, even more so with duty equipment to be used under stress.
He won't actually refute facts, just keep saying "wrong". "Training issue", etc.
I'd actually like to see slow motion video of him drawing a serpa.
Mysteryman
07-05-17, 20:44
And as already been said: it is a training issue. Very similar to how people said the Glock just went off when re-holstering. Guess what? The Glock is designed to go off when the trigger is pulled. The Serpa, just like the Glock's issues were training issues.
Why would you select something as simple as a holster that requires ADDITIONAL training to use safely when there are better built and better designed options that do not require additional training?
The Training issues with Glock pistols were people failing to adhere to the fundamental four rules and/or plain dangerous and stupid gun handling habits. The proper and safe habits for firearms handling are UNIVERSAL. In the case of the Serpa holster it is completely different from any other holster on the market. Serpa holsters are cheap sh*t for the uninformed individual who is too cheap to invest in quality gear and likely too cheap to invest in quality training. Ever wonder why anyone with any credibility doesn't use or promote their use?
MM
Why would you select something as simple as a holster that requires ADDITIONAL training to use safely when there are better built and better designed options that do not require additional training?
Wait, so any holster other than a Serpa doesn't require training? Damn, I guess I've wasted a lot of my time...
Any holster you use, no matter what style or brand, requires training to use it safely. I didn't just get a pocket holster, toss a gun in it, and called myself good. I cleared the gun and practiced drawing from multiple positions to see what worked and what didn't work. When I got comfortable enough with it, I moved to live fire practice at the range. Change the holster, some things transfer over (obviously, the manual of arms for the pistol), but you need to make sure you are aware of any issues. That process, even if you do it in your home with a cleared firearm, is training.
southswede- From the M4C Style Guide here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?70019-The-Good-The-Bad-and-The-Ugly-an-M4C-Style-Guide
The Value of Opinions.
The Good: One of M4C's strengths is that we acknowledge that not all opinions are created equal. To this end, we have attempted to make the Subject Matter Experts and Industry Professionals in our midst more visible, so you know when you are engaging with a heavy hitter. We also have many, many regular members who are capable of dispensing very sound advice.
The Bad: If you honestly have no first-hand experience with the topic at hand, either learn to say nothing at all, or be very up-front about your limitations. Stay in your lane, and think twice about posting something that you believe to be true only because you read about it on the internet, or saw it in a magazine. You will earn far more respect by asking an intelligent question than by dispensing a foolish answer.
The Ugly: Knowledgeable members are generally quick to throw the BS flag when it is warranted, and post-counts may not be especially useful here, as some of the most competent members on M4C have relatively low post counts. You may well discover that there is more wisdom in the opinion of a 2006 member with 400 posts than in that of a 2010 member with 1,400. Pay attention, and treat it as a learning opportunity should you find your views being actively challenged. (There is an associated lesson here with respect to our stance on post-whoring, but that should probably go without saying.)
With the above in mind, can you please offer the membership a bit of info about what training and experience informs your position on this topic? Things that might be of note are formal firearms education, carriage and use thereof (esp professional), training of others, those sorts of things? Thanks in advance.
southswede
07-06-17, 06:51
southswede- From the M4C Style Guide here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?70019-The-Good-The-Bad-and-The-Ugly-an-M4C-Style-Guide
With the above in mind, can you please offer the membership a bit of info about what training and experience informs your position on this topic? Things that might be of note are formal firearms education, carriage and use thereof (esp professional), training of others, those sorts of things? Thanks in advance.
I keep my finger outside of the trigger guard until I am on target, sure of my target and ready to fire. I'm not being a smart ass. It really is this simple.
Have actual real-world law enforcement street experience with the serpa holster. I was wearing the duty version in 2008 during my second shooting. Right thumb released the hood, trigger finger released the trigger guard when the release was depressed with my trigger finger. Glock 22 was drawn from the holster. I had ZERO trouble keeping my finger indexed along the slide until I was up on target and engaging the suspect who was shooting at me and my partner with a high powered rifle.
According to others, I should have difficulties in doing this. Fact of the matter is, I did not.
I spent more than 20 years as a firearms instructor before retiring. I've taught hundreds, no thousands to successfully use the serpa holster. I may or may not like what is provided for use. Be it caliber, firearm, holster or any other piece of equipment, I learned to make it work and to teach others to do the same.
I had ZERO trouble keeping my finger indexed along the slide until I was up on target and engaging the suspect who was shooting at me and my partner with a high powered rifle.
According to others, I should have difficulties in doing this. Fact of the matter is, I did not.
Fact of the matter is, you don't know. Under severe stress, the important thing is you were able to quickly deploy your gun. Whether we all have different opinions on the holster, gun, or other equipment, I'm happy that your equipment served you well during this situation.
But as I said, you have no idea if your finger remained clear or not. Without high speed footage to show one way or another, it's anyone's guess. I don't doubt you're experienced with the Serpa, but as the earlier video showed us, even someone who is experienced with it and thinks they're remaining clear has issues keeping their finger clear of the trigger.
I'm sitting here looking at a LEO trade in Sig P229 I have. It was clearly carried in a Serpa (finish is worn on the outside above the trigger guard vs. the two parallel lines of top of the slide typical of a Safariland). The design of the Sig would lend itself well to the Serpa - it's a completely flat surface on the side of the frame. You press hard into that, your finger sits there. Compare that to other guns with a rounded profile that would draw your finger toward the trigger.
With respect swede, there is a reason you're the only one defending this holster. It does nothing better than the competition - Safariland has the reputation and following it does for a reason. It's made with a relatively weak plastic, has a mechanism that allows foreign debris to potentially interfere, and uses what virtually everyone else agrees is a questionable retention release design. It offers one advantage - cost. People have no problem buying a cheap Serpa, Fobus, or Uncle Mike's at the store and claiming it to be "just as good" as a more expensive, well regarded holster (or firearm, or etc.).
Singlestack Wonder
07-06-17, 09:41
*****
Perhaps the serpa topic proves there is a relationship between low post counts and lack of serious firearms use experience?
Yeah because everyone in the universe with firearms experience has been on this site since the dawn of time.
Nice troll post that added nothing to the conversation.
News flash, people are entitled to alternative views and there are very few universal truths.
Singlestack Wonder
07-06-17, 10:37
Yeah because everyone in the universe with firearms experience has been on this site since the dawn of time.
Nice troll post that added nothing to the conversation.
News flash, people are entitled to alternative views and there are very few universal truths.
No trolling....The same remarks are commonly applied with folks who come here expressing that dpms is equal to Colt (you already know that).
Ok...I'll rephrase.....Serious use instructors and serious users recognize the design issue and potential for negligent discharges with the serpa design.
southswede
07-06-17, 10:40
Fact of the matter is, you don't know. Under severe stress, the important thing is you were able to quickly deploy your gun. Whether we all have different opinions on the holster, gun, or other equipment, I'm happy that your equipment served you well during this situation.
But as I said, you have no idea if your finger remained clear or not. Without high speed footage to show one way or another, it's anyone's guess. I don't doubt you're experienced with the Serpa, but as the earlier video showed us, even someone who is experienced with it and thinks they're remaining clear has issues keeping their finger clear of the trigger.
I'm sitting here looking at a LEO trade in Sig P229 I have. It was clearly carried in a Serpa (finish is worn on the outside above the trigger guard vs. the two parallel lines of top of the slide typical of a Safariland). The design of the Sig would lend itself well to the Serpa - it's a completely flat surface on the side of the frame. You press hard into that, your finger sits there. Compare that to other guns with a rounded profile that would draw your finger toward the trigger.
With respect swede, there is a reason you're the only one defending this holster. It does nothing better than the competition - Safariland has the reputation and following it does for a reason. It's made with a relatively weak plastic, has a mechanism that allows foreign debris to potentially interfere, and uses what virtually everyone else agrees is a questionable retention release design. It offers one advantage - cost. People have no problem buying a cheap Serpa, Fobus, or Uncle Mike's at the store and claiming it to be "just as good" as a more expensive, well regarded holster (or firearm, or etc.).
As a matter of fact I do know. See I was there-you were not. I clearly remembered feeling the gap between the steel slide and plastic frame of the Glock. (Funny the things that stick in my memory from that night). So you see, you are wrong.
If you re-read this thread, you will see comments from people who have also carried firearms into harms way-quite successfully I might add and without incident. So I am far from the "only one" defending this holster. As for the debris issue, that was long ago resolved by Blackhawk. This leads me to believe you are one ST911 was referring to as having "have no first-hand experience with the topic at hand".........
No trolling....The same remarks are commonly applied with folks who come here expressing that dpms is equal to Colt (you already know that).
Ok...I'll rephrase.....Serious use instructors and serious users recognize the design issue and potential for negligent discharges with the serpa design.
Again, people said the Glock was prone to ND's when they were first introduced. What changed all that? Training. Simple as that. People were taught to keep their finger outside of the trigger guard. (I was taught almost 28 years ago to point my trigger finger at the target until I was ready to engage said target. As a result, we never had issues with Glock's or in the topic of this thread, the srepa holsters.
Singlestack Wonder
07-06-17, 11:16
Again, people said the Glock was prone to ND's when they were first introduced. What changed all that? Training. Simple as that. People were taught to keep their finger outside of the trigger guard. (I was taught almost 28 years ago to point my trigger finger at the target until I was ready to engage said target. As a result, we never had issues with Glock's or in the topic of this thread, the srepa holsters.
People "said" the Glock was prone to ND's based on a misconceived perception. The ND's never happened, best represented in the example of law enforcement personnel, as officers had experience carrying firearms for over a hundred years with no safeties, i.e. revolvers.
However in the case of the serpa, many actual discharges have actually happened due to the design. Recently, here in Butler County, Ohio, a Sheriff's Deputy recruit attending the POTA experienced a negligent discharge with a serpa while drawing his weapon on the indoor range.
The number of serpa ND's continues to grow. That's a clue.....
So you see, you are wrong.
That's not an argument, and this board deserves better arguments than "because I said so." Memory is a fickle thing, and we go on facts, numbers, and proof. As I said, I am very happy your equipment, training, and mindset got you out of that so we can debate something like this.
This leads me to believe you are one ST911 was referring to as having "have no first-hand experience with the topic at hand".........
I've had first hand use with the non-level III models years ago. Had a couple for different Glocks and one for a Beretta PX4. Never had an issue with them, but never used them for competition or anything that involved time pressure, and certainly not for carry. I didn't care for the flimsy feel, and at a GSSF match met a guy "who knew a guy, who knew a guy" who had a ND with one. Story was probably BS, but it led me to researching them and moving to the Safariland.
If they work for you, rock on. You have the level of training and competence to understand the equipment and its quirks and limitations, and I think most members of this board fall into that category. Joe blow average shooter - not so much.
southswede
07-06-17, 12:00
That's not an argument, and this board deserves better arguments than "because I said so." Memory is a fickle thing, and we go on facts, numbers, and proof. As I said, I am very happy your equipment, training, and mindset got you out of that so we can debate something like this.
.
You are wrong. Your memory might be a fickle thing. Mine (and countless others) involved in critical incidents are in stark contrast to you and your memory. That is unless you really expect me (and others reading this) to believe I don't know the difference between steel and plastic..............
I see a lot of posts indicating that the solution is to train more.
Why does the Serpa itself require more training? What is the additional training trying to overcome?
Do other holster designs also require as much or more training?
If holster A requires "X" hours of training and holster B requires "2X" hours of training, why am I buying holster B?
ramairthree
07-06-17, 23:50
I feel the need to reiterate
1) people that have used the holster thousands of time in high volume and high stress that have Serpas and seen hundreds of others do so without issue will never, as in not ever, be convinced there is an issue.
2) people that are 100% convinced that the motion is a ND waiting to happen on every draw, will never, as in not ever, be convinced there is not an issue.
Think of it like this,
If you tried to convince me getting oral sex from a dude was good, no matter how many arguments you made and what policies you quoted, you are not going to convince me to take you up on it.
Since there do, in fact, exist women willing to do so, presenting a much better option, why don't we just move forward and stick with that and quit arguing about the former.
Mysteryman
07-06-17, 23:53
Wait, so any holster other than a Serpa doesn't require training? Damn, I guess I've wasted a lot of my time...
Any holster you use, no matter what style or brand, requires training to use it safely. I didn't just get a pocket holster, toss a gun in it, and called myself good. I cleared the gun and practiced drawing from multiple positions to see what worked and what didn't work. When I got comfortable enough with it, I moved to live fire practice at the range. Change the holster, some things transfer over (obviously, the manual of arms for the pistol), but you need to make sure you are aware of any issues. That process, even if you do it in your home with a cleared firearm, is training.
Nowhere did I say that you should use a holster without first vetting it. What I'm saying is why use a holster than requires extra attention over any other holster before using it? Your trigger finger should be tasked with no other role than depressing the trigger, to do otherwise leads to unintended consequences.
I keep my finger outside of the trigger guard until I am on target, sure of my target and ready to fire. I'm not being a smart ass. It really is this simple.
Have actual real-world law enforcement street experience with the serpa holster. I was wearing the duty version in 2008 during my second shooting. Right thumb released the hood, trigger finger released the trigger guard when the release was depressed with my trigger finger. Glock 22 was drawn from the holster. I had ZERO trouble keeping my finger indexed along the slide until I was up on target and engaging the suspect who was shooting at me and my partner with a high powered rifle.
According to others, I should have difficulties in doing this. Fact of the matter is, I did not.
I spent more than 20 years as a firearms instructor before retiring. I've taught hundreds, no thousands to successfully use the serpa holster. I may or may not like what is provided for use. Be it caliber, firearm, holster or any other piece of equipment, I learned to make it work and to teach others to do the same.
No one is saying you "should have.." for anything. What we're saying is that based on human mechanics and your body alarm response the risk for an ND due to jerking the pistol before releasing the catch has a higher tendency to result in a curled finger entering the trigger guard once the pistol is released. This phenomenon is akin to the Serpa holster and no other. Again, having your trigger finger do double duty especially when it involves a piece of equipment so poorly designed as the Serpa is just asking for trouble.
Add in that the Serpa holster line, in fact everything blackcrap tactical makes is imported or plain poor quality. The Serpa button makes drawing with your support hand nearly impossible.
Yeah because everyone in the universe with firearms experience has been on this site since the dawn of time.
Nice troll post that added nothing to the conversation.
News flash, people are entitled to alternative views and there are very few universal truths.
The comment was a statement of absolutes but an indicator of a trend..
Again, people said the Glock was prone to ND's when they were first introduced. What changed all that? Training. Simple as that. People were taught to keep their finger outside of the trigger guard. (I was taught almost 28 years ago to point my trigger finger at the target until I was ready to engage said target. As a result, we never had issues with Glock's or in the topic of this thread, the srepa holsters.
As posted by another, the issue wasn't the design of the gun, it was people's sh*tty gun handling habits and the ND issue was grossly overblown. The Serpa issues are unique to the Serpa only, that's a clue..
I see a lot of posts indicating that the solution is to train more.
Why does the Serpa itself require more training? What is the additional training trying to overcome?
Do other holster designs also require as much or more training?
If holster A requires "X" hours of training and holster B requires "2X" hours of training, why am I buying holster B?
Well said... And if holster A is better quality than holster B and equal or similar cost then again, why am I buying holster B??
MM
ramairthree
07-06-17, 23:58
I see a lot of posts indicating that the solution is to train more.
Why does the Serpa itself require more training? What is the additional training trying to overcome?
Do other holster designs also require as much or more training?
If holster A requires "X" hours of training and holster B requires "2X" hours of training, why am I buying holster B?
If holster B had options for your light that A did not, was more durable, had better QC, was faster, etc. You could make the argument for it.
However, as much as I despise 300 pound never beens with a cigarette handing out of there mouth in max size 5.11s at the range telling me my Serpa is going to kill me and I don't put my light in the right place based on what they saw on YouTube,
I cannot not make those arguments for the Serpa.
The Serpa is like the Sony UMD.
It worked for a lot of guys with PSPs.
A while back, the PSP offered MP3 playing, movie watching, games, photos, internet surfing, etc. In a package that was pretty well priced and handy at the time.
However, there are plenty of other options to do so now that are better.
I would not say the UMD sucked or the PSP was a piece of crap a dozen years ago.
But I am not going to say they are a great option in 2017.
itsmcgavinson
07-07-17, 14:23
Great move by LAPD.
Mysteryman
07-07-17, 18:35
If holster B had options for your light that A did not, was more durable, had better QC, was faster, etc. You could make the argument for it.
However, as much as I despise 300 pound never beens with a cigarette handing out of there mouth in max size 5.11s at the range telling me my Serpa is going to kill me and I don't put my light in the right place based on what they saw on YouTube,
I cannot not make those arguments for the Serpa.
The Serpa is like the Sony UMD.
It worked for a lot of guys with PSPs.
A while back, the PSP offered MP3 playing, movie watching, games, photos, internet surfing, etc. In a package that was pretty well priced and handy at the time.
However, there are plenty of other options to do so now that are better.
I would not say the UMD sucked or the PSP was a piece of crap a dozen years ago.
But I am not going to say they are a great option in 2017.
Stop adding your own words to the OP's example. If you compare the Serpa to another EQUALLY equipped holster it doesn't offer anything better as far as design, materials or craftsmanship.
MM
Dave From Montgomery
07-07-17, 23:34
I love mine for my G19 with Crimson Trace,,, would never give it up.. what do you expect from LaLaLand and Governor Moonbeam
Even if the retention system didn't require the use of the index finger, the actual system has been documented to fail and the hardware used for the entire holster is less robust than other well known holsters. But hey, if your agency is broke and $35 for a holster is all you got you take what you can get.
Mine issued us Serpas for when we were in soft uniforms. I tossed it in the trash.
My first handgun I purchased myself, a Canik 55 TP9, it came with a serpa.
I used it for home carry for quite awhile. I always knew the risks, but made sure to train with it as much as I could.
I NEVER was comfortable with it. Just my mentality stood in the way. Switched it up to a kydex iwb, and thus started my CCW amd much bigger comfort.
I feel like I have come a long way, holster wise and gun wise. Carry a glock 26 in a N8 squared twist retention and absolutely love it.
My real gist is that the serpa is not a good option for the majority of all shooters. Experienced or not. Its cheap, better than nothing, but severely lacking in effectiveness.
Glock9mm1990
07-12-17, 02:15
Im embarrassed to admit I bought one for my Glock 21 back in the day when I first got into guns and I didn't know better, call me a dumbass.
tacticaldesire
07-15-17, 23:53
Im embarrassed to admit I bought one for my Glock 21 back in the day when I first got into guns and I didn't know better, call me a dumbass.
I wouldn't be too embarrassed. New shooters seems to be the primary demographic aside from .gov agencies that buy serpas. Some move on, some like them and keep them.
Glock9mm1990
07-17-17, 19:38
I wouldn't be too embarrassed. New shooters seems to be the primary demographic aside from .gov agencies that buy serpas. Some move on, some like them and keep them.
I still have to sell off mine, hasn't been used in years.
I've had a passing interest in this thread as I've used Serpa's for several years and know not to use my finger TIP to release the pistol. I've really only used them as "house" holsters.
Fast forward to today, and my son in law, who has also used Serpas for several years, had the closest of calls. In a "backyard" match with my grandson to see who could put the first shot on paper, from the Serpa, my son in law used his finger tip instead of the flat of the pad, and put a 9mm slug from an M&P into his blue jeans, hitting his thick wallet carried in his right front pocket. The slug tore through the entire length of the wallet, and was apparently deflected by said wallet. Had the wallet been in his back pocket, as mine always is, this would not have ended well.
A cheap lesson and a sobering wake-up for him.....and me.
Skip
I've had a passing interest in this thread as I've used Serpa's for several years and know not to use my finger TIP to release the pistol. I've really only used them as "house" holsters.
Fast forward to today, and my son in law, who has also used Serpas for several years, had the closest of calls. In a "backyard" match with my grandson to see who could put the first shot on paper, from the Serpa, my son in law used his finger tip instead of the flat of the pad, and put a 9mm slug from an M&P into his blue jeans, hitting his thick wallet carried in his right front pocket. The slug tore through the entire length of the wallet, and was apparently deflected by said wallet. Had the wallet been in his back pocket, as mine always is, this would not have ended well.
A cheap lesson and a sobering wake-up for him.....and me.
Skip
Damn, glad your son is ok
tacticaldesire
07-30-17, 15:48
I've had a passing interest in this thread as I've used Serpa's for several years and know not to use my finger TIP to release the pistol. I've really only used them as "house" holsters.
Fast forward to today, and my son in law, who has also used Serpas for several years, had the closest of calls. In a "backyard" match with my grandson to see who could put the first shot on paper, from the Serpa, my son in law used his finger tip instead of the flat of the pad, and put a 9mm slug from an M&P into his blue jeans, hitting his thick wallet carried in his right front pocket. The slug tore through the entire length of the wallet, and was apparently deflected by said wallet. Had the wallet been in his back pocket, as mine always is, this would not have ended well.
A cheap lesson and a sobering wake-up for him.....and me.
Skip
Glad your family is okay.
Most issues you see with the serpa occur under these circumstances (i,e being excited, in a rush etc.) as people tend to use their fingertip under said circumstances.
MountainRaven
12-16-17, 21:09
Little bit of a necro, but P&S just posted this up: Lots of direct experience with Serpa holsters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY9VTenW5Ac
I wouldn't be too embarrassed. New shooters seems to be the primary demographic aside from .gov agencies that buy serpas. Some move on, some like them and keep them.
I believe they have been banned from use at the FLETC and named by some fed agencies as being barred from use.
I used one since late 2007.
I must be doing it wrong.
I went to some serious classes where instructors sucked teeth as soon as they saw me saunter up with my "suicide holster" but I dunno....while Safariland makes goof holsters; I have had zero problems with my Serpa.
I keep meaning to get a better holster but am lazy
I gave a Serpa holster to one of my sons for his airsoft 1911, its perfect in that role.
It took me a long time to buy a Safariland 6378 for my G19. I need to buy a better belt loop, then with it and a Sidearmor IWB I am set for life.
Andy
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