View Full Version : FBI Agent Indicted
"An FBI agent has been indicted on federal accusations that he lied about firing at Robert "LaVoy" Finicum last year as police arrested the leaders of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge occupation.
The agent will face allegations of making a false statement with intent to obstruct justice, according to sources familiar with the case."
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2017/06/fbi_agent_indicted_accused_of.html
Not sure why it took so long. Unfortunately I suspect it's because none of his team was willing to turn him in.
This is sure to encourage the conspiracy theorists. And the people who question the motives of every decent, hardworking, and honest LEO.
Would like to know why he/they thought they needed to lie about it.
Doc Safari
06-28-17, 16:45
Would like to know why he/they thought they needed to lie about it.
That speaks volumes all by itself.
W Joseph Astarita
He fired 2 shots before the guy got out of truck. Guess Astarita did not know guys wife was running video in truck and you can hear/see the two shots. Seems like he should have known before he had to give an official statement, and thus not indicted himself.
Puzzling, as it was a Justified Shooting, and his shots missed the suspect, not sure why lie. The guy had just missed running over another agent, so he could have said that was why he shot, would have seemed reasonable to most.
It's rarely what you do that gets you in trouble, it's the lie or deception about what you did that gets you. As an FBI agent, he should know that better than anyone.
It's one of the toughest things to get through people's heads sometimes. The truth is the best answer, always...
"I was concerned for my life and the life of other agents because I just watched him try to run over another agent..."
DONE...
Puzzling, as it was a Justified Shooting, and his shots missed the suspect, not sure why lie. The guy had just missed running over another agent, so he could have said that was why he shot, would have seemed reasonable to most.i think youre right they could have spun it differently. But he probably lied because it wasn't justifiable. Otherwise he wouldn't have been the only one pulling his trigger.
i think youre right they could have spun it differently. But he probably lied because it wasn't justifiable. Otherwise he wouldn't have been the only one pulling his trigger.
That is a good point too.
Moose-Knuckle
06-29-17, 05:28
Meh, the suspect in this incident was the wrong color and had the wrong political leanings.
Next will be "he deserved it" like that poor kid who was tortured in N Korea and died when he got back to CONUS.
"Speaking at a news conference Wednesday, Nelson, the Deschutes County sheriff, said he and his investigators flew to Washington last year to brief the FBI on the findings of their probe. Nelson said he was disappointed to learn that HRT members were not placed on leave after that briefing."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/post-nation/wp/2017/06/28/fbi-agent-indicted-charged-with-lying-about-shooting-during-encounter-with-oregon-refuge-occupier/
Notice the Sheriff refers to "HRT members", plural. It looks like he believes more than one member was involved the lie.
I wonder if that briefing made Comey queasy?
I must say, whole thing "on paper" does not look good. Is their a source of a full account of the event yet? I always tend to give LE the benefit of the doubt, but watching the vid (shots fired with his hands in the air), and reading snippets like:
"Moments later, state police troopers shot Finicum three times after he emerged from his white truck and reached for his inner jacket pocket, where police said he had a loaded 9mm handgun. One bullet pierced his heart, an autopsy found."
Yet he was shot 3 times in the back by the troopers. Did he reach for the pistol, then spin around? That is perfectly possible, but without details and context, it does not read well. I was not there, but lot of this does not sound terribly kosher all around.
The HRT guys lying about taking shots at him just seems bizarre. If anyone would know that it would be discovered they had in fact shot at him, it would be them you'd think. As others have said, why lie about it?
Straight Shooter
06-29-17, 18:47
Meh, the suspect in this incident was the wrong color and had the wrong political leanings.
Next will be "he deserved it" like that poor kid who was tortured in N Korea and died when he got back to CONUS.
AND I SAYS AMEN, BROTHER.
Yet he was shot 3 times in the back by the troopers. Did he reach for the pistol, then spin around? That is perfectly possible, but without details and context, it does not read well. I was not there, but lot of this does not sound terribly kosher all around.
The HRT guys lying about taking shots at him just seems bizarre. If anyone would know that it would be discovered they had in fact shot at him, it would be them you'd think. As others have said, why lie about it?you're confusing two separate events. The road block was set up too close to the turn they werent stopping some 2000 lb iraqi compact it was a fully loaded suv. Driver was watching pursuing cars in rearview sees the road block late around the turn can't stop in time, swerves to avoid road block. One agent second guesses the decision placing him right on top of the poorly placed road block but luckily moves out of the way. As the suv is braking this other agent popped off a couple shots at the suv before anyone had exited. I believe this is the incident reported. Not the separate shooting after vehicle exit.
If you want bizarre... I remember a news article last year where one of the State Troopers put in his report that he didn't think the HRT guys used their real names.
As for the shooting. Finicum was basically surrounded by two or three State Troopers, but kept reaching into his jacket. I can't see a problem if it ended up being the Trooper behind him who took the shot. Finicum was clearly going for something in his pocket and a threat to the Trooper in front of him.
It is terrible that those two HRT shots and cover up may permanently cloud the entire shooting.
It's terrible that an FBI Agent would lie.
It's terrible that his fellow FBI Agents would lie and or cover for him.
It's terrible that FBI management doesn't seem to have cared enough to pull them off the duty.
It's terrible that the SJW,s who constantly claim that LE lies about shootings, are completely uninterested in this story because of the skin color and or political leanings of the person who was shot.
It does seem to be a good idea to have a different agency conduct an OIS investigation. Pretty sure that is by Law here in Oregon, not sure how common it is around the country.
you're confusing two separate events.
Actually I'm not, maybe just didn't do a good job of explaining why i was discussing both events. I was adding in discussion of how he met he demise.
The road block was set up too close to the turn they werent stopping some 2000 lb iraqi compact it was a fully loaded suv. Driver was watching pursuing cars in rearview sees the road block late around the turn can't stop in time, swerves to avoid road block. One agent second guesses the decision placing him right on top of the poorly placed road block but luckily moves out of the way. As the suv is braking this other agent popped off a couple shots at the suv before anyone had exited. I believe this is the incident reported. Not the separate shooting after vehicle exit.
Now I'm wondering if that's why they are lying. Perhaps that's not how it went down. Vid clearly shows otherwise. Someone popped off several rounds after he exist, his hands are up, and rnds hit the vehicle. Possibly the HRT guys? Did you watch the first vid at the OP link? Truck is stopped, he exists, puts hands up, and a bullet hits the car.
If you want bizarre... I remember a news article last year where one of the State Troopers put in his report that he didn't think the HRT guys used their real names.
As for the shooting. Finicum was basically surrounded by two or three State Troopers, but kept reaching into his jacket. I can't see a problem if it ended up being the Trooper behind him who took the shot. Finicum was clearly going for something in his pocket and a threat to the Trooper in front of him.
After watching the vid of he take down, makes sense. You can see how the conspiracy theory types might view that. It did look like suicide by cop.
It is terrible that those two HRT shots and cover up may permanently cloud the entire shooting.
It's terrible that an FBI Agent would lie.
It's terrible that his fellow FBI Agents would lie and or cover for him.
It's terrible that FBI management doesn't seem to have cared enough to pull them off the duty.
It's terrible that the SJW,s who constantly claim that LE lies about shootings, are completely uninterested in this story because of the skin color and or political leanings of the person who was shot.
It does seem to be a good idea to have a different agency conduct an OIS investigation. Pretty sure that is by Law here in Oregon, not sure how common it is around the country.
The cover up, may be, they took the shot when the vehicle was stopped, he was out of the vehicle, and his hands up. First vid in OP link, or am I confusing something else? Someone does take a shot when vehicle is stopped, he's exited, his hands are up, that much we know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH4PInHFfOc
Yes Will those 2 shots were hrt, agent astarita. Prior to the actual OIS. Apologies the driver HAD exited the vehicle but NOT the occupants. I watched the video well over a year ago so forgive me.
Yes Will those 2 shots were hrt, agent astarita. Prior to the actual OIS. Apologies the driver HAD exited the vehicle but NOT the occupants. I watched the video well over a year ago so forgive me.
OK, then we have established (seemingly) what the HRT guys claimed and what they did are not in line. They claimed they took a shot while the vehicle was moving as it looked like the SUV may strike the LEO (making it justifiable to be sure), yet took the shot when it was stopped, he was out of the SUV, and had his hands up.
Hence, the likely motivation for lying is my guess. If I have the fact patterns based on the evidence wrong, correct me.
Were the intentionally firing into the vehicle because the occupants had not also exited yet were offering no resistance? So far, it does not look good for the professionalism of the unit and I applaud LE for not simply white washing that regardless of how we/I feel about the people who started the stand off.
Basically the agent fired twice at the vehicle, they picked up the brass and said he never fired.
After that was pretty much suicide by cop.
And suicided career.
Basically the agent fired twice at the vehicle, they picked up the brass and said he never fired.
After that was pretty much suicide by cop.
And suicided career.
The part I'm hung up on, which seems connected to possibly why they picked up the brass is, they originally said they shot at the SUV while it was moving thinking it may strike the LEO. What appears to have actually taken place is, they shot after it stopped, moving, he'd exited, and had his hands up.
One is a justified shoot, one is not. That's seemingly why they decided to change their story is my guess once they realized the original version would not hold up, perhaps learning of the vid and or other evidence that does not support their version.
I hope I'm wrong on that, just how it appears to play out from what we are privy to. The HRT seems to find themselves in some very controversial events.
There were shots at the vehicle while it was moving. State Trooper fired three rounds as the truck headed into the snowbank towards an HRT member. He did not hit any occupants. This was cleared as part of the original OIS investigation.
The shots that were not accounted for were indeed after the truck stopped and before Finicum starts reaching into his pocket.
RetroRevolver77
06-30-17, 10:50
There were shots at the vehicle while it was moving. State Trooper fired three rounds as the truck headed into the snowbank towards an HRT member. He did not hit any occupants. This was cleared as part of the original OIS investigation.
The shots that were not accounted for were indeed after the truck stopped and before Finicum starts reaching into his pocket.
Dude had his hands up and was yelling for them just to kill him, he never pulled his pistol nor did they know he had one on him until after he was shot.
There were shots at the vehicle while it was moving. State Trooper fired three rounds as the truck headed into the snowbank towards an HRT member. He did not hit any occupants. This was cleared as part of the original OIS investigation.
The shots that were not accounted for were indeed after the truck stopped and before Finicum starts reaching into his pocket.
Thanx for the clarifications on that. I think I have about the best picture I'm going to have from the intel available to me at this time.
Dude had his hands up and was yelling for them just to kill him, he never pulled his pistol nor did they know he had one on him until after he was shot.
You're overlapping the events and shots fired if I know understand via Todd K:
(1) Rnds into moving SUV via HRT, accounted for.
(2) Rnds into non moving SUV while his hands up seems to be the issue, and that does not look good via vid
(3) Rnds from troopers (3) as he repeatedly reached into his pants to (apparently) commit suicide by cop. Around 2:40 of vid #2 at OP link shows that clearly. I can see why that was judged a justifiable shoot. He made it clear they were going to have to shoot him, and they did.
2 above is where things look bad and it makes the HRT look like trigger happy dudes.
RetroRevolver77
06-30-17, 12:04
Actually looking at the second video it seems he was stumbling in the snow which is when his hands dropped, said something about "go ahead and shoot me"- which they did.
7n6
thopkins22
06-30-17, 12:29
I hope I'm wrong on that, just how it appears to play out from what we are privy to. The HRT seems to find themselves in some very controversial events.
You're exactly right. Reality was assault with a deadly weapon, the version told was a justifiable use of force.
I'd like to see some data on their operational tempo. Are they simply behind the eight ball in terms of real life shoot don't shoot situations as compared to the rest of the SWAT world? They could be hitting houses every day, I dunno...but it's my understanding that most of that is handled by regional teams. HRT has deployed members all over the world on various JSOC raids, has sixteen years of tagging along on direct action missions led them to be a little(or a lot) cavalier?
It's also entirely possible that due to the high profile nature of some of their deployments, the microscope is simply zoomed in too tight for us to be fair.
FWIW, **** that guy and anyone who thinks it's okay to steal from every other citizen by commandeering OUR property. Still, that doesn't excuse a mistake, and it sure as hell doesn't excuse a LEO from lying. Their honesty is an absolutely critical part of our justice system and the reason we haven't devolved into a bribe your way out of trouble system like most of the world. They need to burn them hard for allowing it.
I understand being loyal to your teammate. But sometimes that loyalty might best be served by convincing him to be honest and that you will have his back when the fallout comes, because dishonesty stabs every other teammate in the back.
RetroRevolver77
06-30-17, 12:55
FWIW, **** that guy and anyone who thinks it's okay to steal from every other citizen by commandeering OUR property.
It's fair use property, for everyone- ranchers alike but now is being taxed for use by such ranchers. It was my understanding that Bundy had grandfathered in land use rights he had purchased but they kept increasing taxes and at some point he just stopped paying the taxes. As far as LaVoy Finicum, he believed in using land by the original principles that garnered the land to be settled and used productively.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-bady-malheur-ideology-20160207-story.html
...the version told was a justifiable use of force.
Not exactly. The HRT members claimed not to have shot at all. The State Troopers that fired owned their shots and were cleared as justified.
thopkins22
06-30-17, 15:00
Not exactly. The HRT members claimed not to have shot at all. The State Troopers that fired owned their shots and were cleared as justified.
OH...even worse. I misinterpreted it as a lie about when the non-fatal shots were fired, not that they simply weren't ever fired at all. Everybody who witnessed it is going to get ****ed in some manner if that's the case....
I don't get thinking that it was going to work. They KNEW that there were people from other agencies there and who would in all likelihood be honest in their reports, and they had to have known that there was footage right? Or that their story might not jive with the state of the vehicle?
It's too bad, the FBI agents I know are in fact the people you want representing us with badges, and are complete professionals in every way.
thopkins22
06-30-17, 15:22
As far as LaVoy Finicum, he believed in using land by the original principles that garnered the land to be settled and used productively.
For sure. But then he decided that he and his friends are who gets to decide what's productive with my land. With YOUR land.
I'm probably to the right of 99% of people on 99% of issues. But I do believe in public lands to a large degree. It's a gift we have that is unparalleled anywhere else in the world, and I'm not sure that we've begun to scratch the surface of it's true value. I am however for allowing private sustainable grazing/a certain amount of natural resource extraction/other non recreational uses.
RetroRevolver77
06-30-17, 16:41
For sure. But then he decided that he and his friends are who gets to decide what's productive with my land. With YOUR land.
I'm probably to the right of 99% of people on 99% of issues. But I do believe in public lands to a large degree. It's a gift we have that is unparalleled anywhere else in the world, and I'm not sure that we've begun to scratch the surface of it's true value. I am however for allowing private sustainable grazing/a certain amount of natural resource extraction/other non recreational uses.
Whose the bigger parasite? Some rancher grazing cattle to sell affordable meat back to the consumers who collectively own the land? Or the ones who've squandered tens of trillions of our money to pad their pensions and give handouts to welfare leaches in exchange for voting for more government?
7n6
thopkins22
06-30-17, 16:57
One being a bigger leach excuses the other? But the incident I'm talking about had nothing to do with cattle.
RetroRevolver77
06-30-17, 17:28
One being a bigger leach excuses the other? But the incident I'm talking about had nothing to do with cattle.
I agree, no excuse for leaching off the American people one way or another- just trying to put it in perspective I guess.
I think jury was being picked starting on 7/24.
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