Update post 32* What do you make of this group?

[MegademiC]

I've plateaued as far as groups at 25yds and think it may be the gun, so I purchased a new one, and was doing side by side groups between them. This is my original pistol. I keep getting erratic groups and am trying to determine if the gun is keyholing. This was 10 shots. Do you see 6 holes or 10? The difference in holes and shape (flat spots) has me wondering.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9yxwmis83izbd1g/Photo%20Jul%2008%2C%209%2014%2000%20PM.jpg?raw=1

[jimbob2525]

uh i see 6 holes. 25 yards is pretty dang far for a pistol though isn't it?

[ST911]

uh i see 6 holes. 25 yards is pretty dang far for a pistol though isn't it?

Nope.

[SeriousStudent]

..... 25 yards is pretty dang far for a pistol though isn't it?

Hopefully it is true for your adversary.

[jimbob2525]

i mean i'm just happy to be on paper at that distance nevermind thinking about groups...

[26 Inf]

What ammo are you using?

Generally if you reach behined the target and kind of smooth it back you'll see the 'abrasion' from the round. You see that on the three in the buff. Two of the three in the center look like tears from either a keyhole, a ricochet, or debris.

Are you trying a 100,000 round torture test? Bore dirty/leaded up or ammo could cause this. We received a lot of ammo several years ago that was keyholing, what didn't keyhole was all over the place. They replaced it and we were told the bullets had voids in them. That's all I know, I was not the one who interacted with the mfgr.

[MegademiC]

No torture test. I lightly clean the barrel each outing with Moro 7, I'm around 1000 rounds through this barrel.
The rest of the gun was clean, not the first time I've seen this from this barrel.

Also odd, seems the rounds drift right as it warms. The new gun stayed consistent throughout the day.
I've been shooting this barrel for a while , but just starting to group it and noticing weird stuff. I'm trying to determine if it's me or the gun.

All groups I've shot are offhand.

[MegademiC]

uh i see 6 holes. 25 yards is pretty dang far for a pistol though isn't it?
It's all relative. Shooting 1"groups, yes, but I'm trying to stay in the 90s on a b-8 target.

Spend some time at 50 and 25 doesn't seem so bad.

[gaijin]

Also odd, seems the rounds drift right as it warms. The new gun stayed consistent throughout the day.
I've been shooting this barrel for a while , but just starting to group it and noticing weird stuff. I'm trying to determine if it's me or the gun.

Are you left or right hand dominant?

[Lefty223]

Make sure you have a completely solid target backer ... as to me, those larger & less round holes are more indicative of a poor backer than the ammo. Anytime I've observed keyholing it was evident on every shot at distance.

Maybe this barrel doesn't like that ammo. I'd also add you may be thumbing the arm or tightening your grip as you fire, which pushes the group to the right.

Also keep all your focus on the front sight - don't drift your focus back & forth from front sight to target. And keep focus ALL the way through the shot. Learn to "call each shot" ... best way to learn! With this method, a shot outside the group, but with a correct call ... is better than a shot in the group that you thought you pulled or threw out.

The best shot, of course, is one called correctly that is right in the group. Keep at it and please report back if anything works for you! Cheers,

[LMT Shooter]

Are you certain that you do not have multiple rounds in the holes in the 8 and 9 rings? The hole in the 9 ring could be 2-3 rounds, and the holes in the 8 ring could be doubles. I would think that, based on the size of your group and the number of rounds in the group, it is odd that you would really have 10rds in 6 holes.

Hard to say with certainty that any are keyholed.

[MegademiC]

Also odd, seems the rounds drift right as it warms. The new gun stayed consistent throughout the day.
I've been shooting this barrel for a while , but just starting to group it and noticing weird stuff. I'm trying to determine if it's me or the gun.

Are you left or right hand dominant?

I shoot right handed.

[SW CQB 45]

can you flatten the paper around the bullet holes in the green and black rings. then take another pic.

for sure on the green the two holes have multiple bullet tattooing marks.

unable to see the black.

[MegademiC]

I'm going to try to get out again this week.

I just noticed in the green, the black smears are not symetrical and the last pic, the paper is bunched up by the smear, don't know if that indicates anything or not.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0cuek4ln3z3x9fd/Photo%20Jul%2009%2C%203%2047%2023%20PM.jpg?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/who8obk0hohq8fh/Photo%20Jul%2009%2C%203%2047%2042%20PM.jpg?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j2qne9jkz5wt8e2/Photo%20Jul%2009%2C%203%2048%2019%20PM.jpg?raw=1

[SW CQB 45]

if I was scoring your paper....those in the green and black are doubles.

that one in the white is very egg shaped too. looks like two rounds

I would call it 10 rounds.

[gaijin]

Only way to determine rather it's you, or the gun- is to shoot from the bench/rested position.
Shoot 5 or 10 round groups at 25/50 yds. You'll determine quickly where the "issue" lies.

[Campbell]

if I was scoring your paper....those in the green and black are doubles.

that one in the white is very egg shaped too. looks like two rounds

I would call it 10 rounds.

Plus 1

[MegademiC]

Only way to determine rather it's you, or the gun- is to shoot from the bench/rested position.
Shoot 5 or 10 round groups at 25/50 yds. You'll determine quickly where the "issue" lies.

Ill try with both guns. Shooting bench with the current gun (old) always produces worse groups than offhand.

[MStarmer]

I have the same problem with thin targets at distance, it seems the holes tear more than they are cut depending if I'm shooting RN or JHP rounds. I like to use the NRA thicker paper targets for groups as it tends to not tear, I also hang a squeeze clamp from the bottom of my target to give it some weight.

[Coal Dragger]

uh i see 6 holes. 25 yards is pretty dang far for a pistol though isn't it?

Not even remotely.

[Coal Dragger]

Suggestions for MegademiC:

1.) As noted shoot from a good pistol rest if possible, sometimes you have an off day and shooting from a more solid position can help eliminate shooter error, fatigue, and arc of movement. Remember we're testing the pistol, barrel, and ammo not necessarily the shooters practical accuracy skills.

2.) Try a variety of ammo in testing to get an idea of overall consistency, it sounds like you have two examples of the same pistol so this is a good opportunity to take a baseline between the two but you need more than one ammo choice because every barrel is a law unto itself. If the new gun out shoots the old one with everything then you'll have an answer.

3.) Before you test do the old pistol a favor and put fresh springs in it, particularly the recoil spring. Strong consistent lockup in battery is always good, as is strong consistent lockup in battery as the round fires when the barrel needs to be locked up with the slide. A weak recoil spring might be a potential culprit in not providing consistent results for every shot.

4.) In order to get better feedback from your target I would suggest using a heavier card stock paper target, and buying some 3M "77" spray adhesive to glue your target to the cardboard target backer. The spray adhesive is something I picked up on from Pat Mac in class, so I will give credit where it is due.

The stuff works brilliantly, not only faster than staples or tape, the wind can't blow the target off, and by adhering the target to the cardboard; bullets do not rip the paper as they pass through. You get nice perfectly cut holes in your target, even with a flimsy thin paper target. The heavier card stock targets glued on the backer give phenomenal feedback, if your barrel is shot out and keyholing bullets this method will clearly tell you because the paper will not rip. Another upside is that the target will last a lot longer and takes target tape repairs a lot better.

Hope the suggestions are helpful. Good luck.

[MegademiC]

Awesome thanks. Couple things:
Definitely not a shot out barrel, less than 2500 rounds.
I run a weaker spring in the "old gun". The factory spec was 17, changed to 18, I didn't like the recoil so I went to a 16#. Think that could contribute?

As far as group size, I've never shot less than a 3-4" group (97 or 98 was my highest score 10 shot b8) at 25. I'm pretty much stuck at 4" regardless of ammo( I've shot 115 he fed aluminum, brass, 124 gr, 147 hst, etc. in fact the 115 he has been consistently better, and it's what I used as the baseline.

I have some Winchester 40 bonded I could never get to group better than 4", I'll try it with the new gun this weekend. I'll try benching the new gun as well.

[Coal Dragger]

If the springs are new and not worn out then I doubt that is a variable at this point.

A 3"-4" off hand group at 25 yards with an average pistol is pretty decent, remember the mechanical accuracy of your pistol is simply added to your arc of movement and whatever trigger control and grip variances you might have.

The best I've ever done was right around a 2" group offhand at 25 yards for 20 rounds with a Benelli MP95E in about 2003 when I was shooting competitive bullseye. That result was with a very very accurate match pistol, with match ammo, and is not one that I could produce on demand.

Try some ammunition loaded with Hornady XTP's, those have given me great results in a variety of calibers both factory loaded and my own reloads.

[Ron3]

I could see how 10 rounds made those holes.

I call that a "good" group and shooting from a compact to full size pistol.

[Spiffums]

Try a USPSA or IDPA target. It will show a grease ring so you can tell if you put 2 rounds side by side or if they are key-holing.

[MegademiC]

Ok, so in the OP I was using a 9mm conversion barrel ("match grade").
The below pics are that gun with factory 40 barrel, and another 40 side by side. Would you be able to chose one to move foreword with as a primary (I'm putting an rmr on one). The left is one gun, the right is another. Left is 2nd trip out, the right I've been shooting for years.

All groups are 10 shots at 25 yds:

Slow fire rest between each shot
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0v0rzgao3to8rtd/Photo%20Jul%2013%2C%208%2055%2013%20PM.jpg?raw=1


Off hand slow but without breaks.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4p0abbox7jkievn/Photo%20Jul%2013%2C%208%2055%2047%20PM.jpg?raw=1

Rapid fire: left- 8 seconds. Right- 10seconds
https://www.dropbox.com/s/redqglrgdjrgzay/Photo%20Jul%2013%2C%208%2056%2024%20PM.jpg?raw=1

Benched
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1mmkw4dx4ha7nnd/Photo%20Jul%2013%2C%208%2057%2028%20PM.jpg?raw=1

From the low-ready
https://www.dropbox.com/s/03htmxdfw5tg08c/Photo%20Jul%2013%2C%208%2056%2058%20PM.jpg?raw=1

[zonerA1]

The only range i shoot handguns at is a Bullseye range...fixed target stands and fixed firing line, 25 yds only. Too far you say, i would disagree. All rounds are fired two handed offhand. After practicing at 25 yds 7 yard or less self defense shots are really easy

[556BlackRifle]

Interesting results. I like the right target better. You seem to shoot that pistol better for whatever reason - except for shooting benched. It would be interesting to swap slides between the pistols and see what results you get. In lieu of that experiment, IMO the one on the right seems to be the best target wise......

[MegademiC]

Interesting results. I like the right target better. You seem to shoot that pistol better for whatever reason - except for shooting benched. It would be interesting to swap slides between the pistols and see what results you get. In lieu of that experiment, IMO the one on the right seems to be the best target wise......

These are 2 different "platforms" so no swapping. Don't look at location, look at group size (I have not adjusted or verified center the sights for left gun. I have 100rds on that platform, 3k plus on the right.

I see less variability and stringing on the left. I group the right one tighter, but throw some flyers past the extremes of the left, so if you measure left group size it's less.

The benched was the kicker for me, it seems the right is a hardware problem, where the left is me opening up the groups.
The rapid fire I have an extra hit on paper with left gun.


Thanks for the feedback, thoughts on above?

[MegademiC]

The only range i shoot handguns at is a Bullseye range...fixed target stands and fixed firing line, 25 yds only. Too far you say, i would disagree. All rounds are fired two handed offhand. After practicing at 25 yds 7 yard or less self defense shots are really easy

I need to get to 50 next time and run a mag or two, then go back to 25. Last time I did that I improved...

Then slacked off and regressed.
It's a mental game, push it out and "impossible" becomes routine. We know what is possible on this board(most), but your average joe that has shot before thinks 25 FEET is long distance.

[556BlackRifle]

These are 2 different "platforms" so no swapping. Don't look at location, look at group size (I have not adjusted or verified center the sights for left gun. I have 100rds on that platform, 3k plus on the right.

I see less variability and stringing on the left. I group the right one tighter, but throw some flyers past the extremes of the left, so if you measure left group size it's less.

The benched was the kicker for me, it seems the right is a hardware problem, where the left is me opening up the groups.
The rapid fire I have an extra hit on paper with left gun.


Thanks for the feedback, thoughts on above?

I hear what you're saying and you may be right but here's how I looked at it:

On the first target, by my eye, the 8 shot cluster at the top looks tighter than the 9 shot cluster on the left.

Second target, fliers aside, the one on the left looks more consistent.

Third target, I find the pattern on the right to be more consistent.

Target four, they both look good but the left looks better. The right target shows vertical stringing. It could be shooter related so I discounted the entire set.

Five, if you pull the fliers from both, I think the pattern on the right looks better.

So based on the above, overall, I'd say the patterns right appear to be more consistent than the left. I wouldn't be 100% confident that the one on the right is better than the one on the left or vis versa, without more data.

[MegademiC]

Great info - thanks for the breakdown. I don't want to discount fliers, as they are me and I'm not looking at just the gun, but how I use it.

I guess it comes down to accept fliers or work in getting more consistent with the left gun. The benched group makes me think there's not much room for improvement for the right gun. Now that I think about it, I feel I can call fliers with the left while the right, some groups felt good and I was surprised by fliers or how big the group was.. It's like it groups better 90% of the time and the rest are complete missed or wild fliers. The lack of predictability makes me root for the left gun, (hardware problem is easy fix), but that's why I'm posting, to be honest with myself.

Alright, I'm going to get some different ammo and see what happens next weekend - I'll update after next range trip.

Thanks again for the input.

[MegademiC]

Update:

Alright, after spending the week dry firing both pistols daily, I made the following targets today.
The m&p is my "old" gun the g23 is new to me.

I called almost every shot outside of the 9 ring with the g23. The sights are more difficult to use, and I was more consistent with it, much better than last week.

The m&p, not sure if it's me or the gun, but it throws random shots that surprise me. I have 2 shots that feel the same, 1 is in the black with the rest, the next is off the paper(I literally had shots off paper that I couldn't explain, not so with the glock). I also measured the barrel to slide fit per Grants explanations and got 0.006. The glock is .0035.

Next is a new front sight, kkm9mm barrel and mill the slide (aeti)


Off hand federal aluminum:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/38cfwxyj0m8y4co/Photo%20Jul%2022%2C%207%2030%2042%20PM.jpg?raw=1

Off hand shooting 2 strings of 5 each.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w3m88drz8a3wd9f/Photo%20Jul%2022%2C%207%2033%2042%20PM.jpg?raw=1

Offhand using Winchester carry ammo (bonded)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fy1vw01u76peikl/Photo%20Jul%2022%2C%207%2035%2048%20PM.jpg?raw=1

[Coal Dragger]

So in order to try to help you out I hit the range on Sunday and did some work at the 25 yard line with my VP9. Shot both off hand standing, and using a bag for a rest.

A couple of observations that might help you, and that I identify as problems that I have that might be affecting you too. I will post photos of targets as I shot them to demonstrate.

The first is a 5 shot string fired off hand at 25 yards on a lousy target for pistol shooting. I had trouble referencing a good vertical position to hold on the target and consequently held too high on occasion.

http://i.imgur.com/rR1KLp7.jpg

[Coal Dragger]

I then walked down range to check my work and fired 5 more for a total of 10 rounds. Notice the trouble again with vertical reference and a shift in my natural point of aim now a bit to the left of the first string.

http://i.imgur.com/b1uFMph.jpg

Changes in natural point of aim will screw with your results. I made sure only shoot 5 rounds at a time on these to demonstrate subtle changes in position affecting on target results.

[Coal Dragger]

Next I glued a fresh target on and ran the same 124gr American Eagle load but shot it resting the gun on a bag. This method proved unsatisfactory as the bottom of the magazine would bump the wood bench top and screw up the position every shot. Again 5 round strings. Again changes in the position or NPA affect results.

http://i.imgur.com/Qn2J9Fx.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/1fQwktB.jpg

Still technically more consistent than shooting off hand.

[Coal Dragger]

Next I ran a 115gr Hornady HAP reload in mixed brass to see how it shoots. As you can notice this prints a bit to the right. Not all ammo will shoot to POA=POI. Don't listen to idiots that tell you to change your grip or perform some other voodoo to remedy this. They're morons who probably cannot shoot a pistol.

This is 20 rounds again fired from standing. Again some issues with vertical reference, probably some POI shift from mag changes and changes in foot position. Fatigue was setting in a bit too, as it was pretty warm and I was sweating my balls off.

http://i.imgur.com/z3OjvoG.jpg

[Coal Dragger]

Not content with the above results I rested the same load over my bag again but this time rested my wrists and not the pistol. This proved beneficial in keeping my head up and more comfortable, and preventing the pistol from bouncing off the wooden bench top with each shot. I also changed to a smaller but higher contrast target of heavier paper stock.

I still managed to flub the last 5 round string after going to take photos of the first 5 rounds. Keeping consistent vertical reference is a challenge for me. Particularly with these damn 3 dot night sights.

http://i.imgur.com/AQ6WCkz.jpg

This is about a 2" group for the first 5. Then the wheels fell off. LOL. Damn you vertical reference points!

http://i.imgur.com/7Cs3WEV.jpg

[Coal Dragger]

Still not a bad day.

http://i.imgur.com/hSjMc0o.jpg

[MegademiC]

Interesting, and thank you.

The glock I definitely have problems with, as the rear sight had no defined edge (worn down to silver with perfect lighting to blend it with the background), and its shooting high enough that I need "some white" showing between the 6oclock of the b8 and the top of the front sight.

The m&p had a nice crisp rear and hits center of b8 with the top of the front sight just touching the bottom of the b8.

Because of this, I'm more confident with the m&p, but the performance is not there. My groups with the glock are already better after 300rds with it, and I expect improvement with a new front sight and painting the rears.

The 7 ring shot on the last left target was pulled. I pushed the gun just before breaking the shot. I'm going to try shooting at a cadence next time, but I need to paint the front. I really struggle keeping focus on the black sight over a black target.

Nice shooting btw.

[gaijin]

Good offhand groups CD.

I always rest my wrists over my range bag when shooting from bench, as you figured out.
Like a rifle barrel that's not floated, vibration/bouncing around on the bench is an accuracy killer.

[Coal Dragger]

Interesting, and thank you.

The glock I definitely have problems with, as the rear sight had no defined edge (worn down to silver with perfect lighting to blend it with the background), and its shooting high enough that I need "some white" showing between the 6oclock of the b8 and the top of the front sight.

The m&p had a nice crisp rear and hits center of b8 with the top of the front sight just touching the bottom of the b8.

Because of this, I'm more confident with the m&p, but the performance is not there. My groups with the glock are already better after 300rds with it, and I expect improvement with a new front sight and painting the rears.

The 7 ring shot on the last left target was pulled. I pushed the gun just before breaking the shot. I'm going to try shooting at a cadence next time, but I need to paint the front. I really struggle keeping focus on the black sight over a black target.

Nice shooting btw.

Sight picture quality starts making a big difference as you start to push the range out. Some configurations are a lot easier to concentrate on and get a sharp crisp front sight. Generally for my eyes if I'm target shooting a black front sight and black rear sight are easiest to use in good light. There's a reason serious target pistols almost always run an undercut black front and an adjustable black rear that has a blade angled to simulate an undercut: this produces a glare proof inky black sight picture that contrasts really well with a paper target, or steel target painted white.

Most bullseye shooters I know, myself included, prefer to take a 6-o'clock hold on a black bull because that is the easiest way to keep a vertical reference for aiming point. Simply adjust the sights to put rounds in the "x" ring from that bottom hold. Obviously this is tough to do when you don't have adjustable sights, fortunately HK must care enough to put sights on that are regulated for elevation and windage. I don't like the sight picture much for target shooting, but I'll be damned if I'm going to screw with a set of fixed night sights that shoot dead on to the top of the front sight to 50 yards with 124gr bullets using a center hold. Your sights need to be changed to suit your needs, and your preference for sight picture if they are not easy to focus on.

Targets also make a difference here. You're shooting at B8 bulls and that is good, they're big enough to see and keep reference on while a bit blurry out at 25 yards while you focus a sharp front sight. The targets I used suck: the 100 yard rifle zero targets present a black box that works OK even out of focus, but in the middle that orange 2"X2" gets lost in bright light against that white backdrop. The 50 M prone smallbore target was better but a bit small to hold on with pistol sights, which stands to reason because it is designed for serious small bore rifle shooters to shoot using aperture sights from prone. Stick with the B8 bulls or other similar targets made for 25 yard center fire pistol, they're easier to use and your results show it.

Your Glock is shooting better than your M&P, no doubt. The Glock barrel is fitted better and it shows. The barrel on my VP9 is fitted pretty damn well too, although I've not put feeler gauges to the barrel hood and breech face. Welcome to the world of shooting stuff past the 7 yard line... mechanical accuracy starts to make a big difference that most never realize.

Triggers also make a huge difference. If you're fighting a gritty spongy creepy trigger that weighs 7lbs, your on target results are going to suck balls compared to you shooting the gun with a nice slick 4.5lb (or lighter) trigger with a nice clean break. I put a match sear spring in my VP9 and it got the 2nd stage down about 1lb in combination with the stock trigger return spring, so it's about a 4.5lb trigger now. Light enough to shoot well, but not so light it is a liability for a carry gun.

The last bit of advice is technique related, and therefore the hardest to achieve and the toughest to accept for some. That is to accept that you have an arc of movement. It sounds like some zen bullshit, but you have to accept the fact you can't hold perfectly still and make the gun go off when the sight picture is perfect. Align your sights, focus on the front sight, and while the front sight wobbles around on target press the trigger strait back until the pistol fires. Don't get caught up in trying to force the trigger when the sights appear to be perfect, that is a road to failure as you will influence sight alignment when you do this. Particularly true when dealing with a heavy trigger, you can honestly get away with it a bit on a lighter crisper trigger. My .22LR match pistol has the trigger set to 1 kilo.... you can get away with quite a few trigger control sins on that one and still hit the target pretty well.

[MegademiC]

Awesome stuff. Noticed a few things:

Rear sight: the factory glock night sights absolutely suck. They are angled forward and the edges vanish in most lighting conditions. My ameriglo rears for the m&p are cut so the rear face is angled down and contrasts the target, almost all targets in nearly all lighting conditions. That said, I'm getting an rmr and they will soon be for reference only, so the rears will stay,new front coming.

Trigger: running stock triggers on both guns. Want to keep factory, but may want a little "more"(it's a carry gun first and foremost). What's the next "step", a glock factory minus connector?

I'll be dry firing both all week and heading back out this weekend. Unfortunately I lost my shot timer so timed drills have to wait.

[Coal Dragger]

I'm not a Glock trigger guru so defer to others. Options exist that are safe and reliable and don't suck. I've shot a few but don't recall particulars.

[MegademiC]

I actually like the feel of it, I feel like it's easy to shoot well as it's a more gradual increase in pressure, opposed to a hard 2nd stage. I just want a slight reduction in weight, and maybe smooth the increase in pressure a bit... for those who know Glock triggers.

[MegademiC]

Update: another day at the 25yd line.

Shield 9 resulted in a solid 5" 9 shot group- pulled 1.
The glock resulted in more consistent groups 4-5" today.
The m&p was similar but throwing multiple fliers each group. It shot worse than the shield and that was with the storm lake barrel again.

I did some research and ended up purchasing a minus connector and KKM conversion barrel for the glock. I've always ran stock guns, but feel the minus connector will allow easier and tighter groups, especially with the KKM barrel, without compromising reliability/safety.

On a side note: I had another malfunction with the glock running federal aluminum. I think it's oversprung, as the slide cycle is extremely fast. The malfunction looked like the slide either didn't go back far enough or cycled too quickly. Also purchased a g19 action spring for the conversion. I'll post groups once the barrel comes and and wrap this thing up.

At this point I don't think I'll ever know if the fliers are me or the gun, but based on the shield results, I'm thinking it's the gun.