View Full Version : Why doesn't anyone offer a 357Sig AR pistol?
Can't find one for the life of me (using Google at least). Lone Wolf and Quarter Circle 10 have them on hold. Anyone know of one that functions well?
I think the 357Sig would make an awesome little PDW-type weapon, and an AR pistol format would be awesome.
I think I remember reading about a gas 357 sig AR a few years back, but I can't find it now.
There is the "Just Right Carbines" version as well as the TNW "Aero Survival Rifle/Pistol", but they aren't true AR's. They look AR-ish but they aren't.
What mags are out there in 40/357 that are adaptable to the AR magwell?
Can't find one for the life of me (using Google at least). Lone Wolf and Quarter Circle 10 have them on hold. Anyone know of one that functions well?
I think the 357Sig would make an awesome little PDW-type weapon, and an AR pistol format would be awesome.
Considering that the terminal ballistics of the Sig .357 is approx equivalent to the various 9mm offerings in JHP, and there's no lack of 9mm ARs, I'd think that would be the way to go no? Less expensive ammo also being a + I'd think. Anyone make a 10mm AR pistol?
What mags are out there in 40/357 that are adaptable to the AR magwell?
Glock mags are what has been used from what I've read. Pics I've seen are dedicated lowers built for the Glock mags.
Considering that the terminal ballistics of the Sig .357 is approx equivalent to the various 9mm offerings in JHP, and there's no lack of 9mm ARs, I'd think that would be the way to go no? Less expensive ammo also being a + I'd think. Anyone make a 10mm AR pistol?
The TNW Aero Survival Pistol (or carbine) can be had in 10mm.
Reason I chose 357Sig is at the higher velocities it should shoot flatter than a 9mm and probably a 10mm too. While the bullets in 9mm and 357Sig may be similar the terminal ballistics of the Sig pull ahead simply because of the velocity.
A correct pressure 357 Sig load (not the watered down store bought stuff) should outrun even the best 9mm +p. Before I get flamed, I'm on the road and can't look at my load books...[emoji16]
A correct pressure 357 Sig load (not the watered down store bought stuff) should outrun even the best 9mm +p. Before I get flamed, I'm on the road and can't look at my load books...[emoji16]
Underwood's 357Sig loads are smoking. They advertise 1450fps for the 125gr loads but folks were actually getting up near 1500fps (and these are handgun velocities mind you).
Ballistics By the Inch has even the more sedate 125gr factory loads doing 1700+fps out of 13"-16" barrel lengths. I can only imagine what Underwood would get.
The TNW Aero Survival Pistol (or carbine) can be had in 10mm.
Reason I chose 357Sig is at the higher velocities it should shoot flatter than a 9mm and probably a 10mm too. While the bullets in 9mm and 357Sig may be similar the terminal ballistics of the Sig pull ahead simply because of the velocity.
Are we not talking PDW distances here per the OP? I guess it all depends on the intended role/use of the gun. Only advantages I'm aware of with the .357 Sig over 9mm is it's better on intermediate barriers if memory serves.
A correct pressure 357 Sig load (not the watered down store bought stuff) should outrun even the best 9mm +p. Before I get flamed, I'm on the road and can't look at my load books...[emoji16]
Shear velocity, at least in typical handgun rnds, does not appear to dictate terminal ballistics. Per comments above, guess it depends on what one plans to do with it. Flatter shooting would have it's benefits too, but I was strictly talking about PDW/SD/HD uses.
Are we not talking PDW distances here per the OP? I guess it all depends on the intended role/use of the gun. Only advantages I'm aware of with the .357 Sig over 9mm is it's better on intermediate barriers if memory serves.
Shear velocity, at least in typical handgun rnds, does not appear to dictate terminal ballistics. Per comments above, guess it depends on what one plans to do with it. Flatter shooting would have it's benefits too, but I was strictly talking about PDW/SD/HD uses.
Let's say within 100 yards at the most.
The extra 200-300fps that the 357Sig gets out of a longer barrel as compared to the 9mm would in fact make a significant difference. (Ballistics By the Inch had 9mm topping out in the 1400's while 357Sig hit the 1700's out of the same length, non-handgun barrels)
Defaultmp3
07-12-17, 14:40
Remember that the various defensive bullets have an optimal velocity range; too slow, and it won't expand properly, but too fast, and it'll expand too rapidly (and possibly shear off any petals), and thus not achieve proper penetration. Not a big issue with FMJs and the like, but stuff like the Underwood rounds with Gold Dot bullets generally do not outperform their factory loaded versions.
Let's say within 100 yards at the most.
The extra 200-300fps that the 357Sig gets out of a longer barrel as compared to the 9mm would in fact make a significant difference. (Ballistics By the Inch had 9mm topping out in the 1400's while 357Sig hit the 1700's out of the same length, non-handgun barrels)
Understood, but make sure to note as Defaultmp3 mentions that modern JHP are designed to perform best in a velocity range and pushing them above that range, actually a negative to their terminal performance. If you recall, we discussed that in the 9mm vs 9mm +p thread.
Using FMJ as a plinker or other uses, a non issue. For actual SD/HD, using JHP, could be an issue.
Remember that the various defensive bullets have an optimal velocity range; too slow, and it won't expand properly, but too fast, and it'll expand too rapidly (and possibly shear off any petals), and thus not achieve proper penetration. Not a big issue with FMJs and the like, but stuff like the Underwood rounds with Gold Dot bullets generally do not outperform their factory loaded versions.
True, but let's look at the reasoning for it outside of normal handgun distances: let's use a Speer 124gr Gold Dot, .355 diameter bullet. At 1200fps (9mm +P velocity) it would still be going ~ 986fps at 100 yards. That same bullet kicked up to 1475fps (Underwood 357Sig velocity) would still be hitting ~ 1122fps at 100 yards. That is a 136fps difference at 100 yards and would make one still function as designed while the other would likely just punch a .355 sized hole in you.
Bottom line? If I wanted it for "handgun" distances I'm cool with a 9mm. In fact, it's my home defense round as well as for CCW (although in HST flavor, not Gold Dot). For reaching out a little further like a PDW should be able to do the 357Sig offers me basically 9mm muzzle velocity effectiveness at 100 yards. Essentially like capping a bad guy at point blank range with a standard pressure 9mm HP, but at 100 yards.
EDIT: accidently ran the original numbers for a handgun with 4" barrel. Out of a carbine, assuming the 9mm ran 1450 and the 357Sig ran 1750 there would actually be almost a 200fps difference at 100 yards, not 136fps. So it just magnifies my point.
Well, it probably also gives the 9mm enough velocity to still function properly at 100...
I'm not opposed to the idea, just don't get hung up on needing it when it's probably more just a want.
Glock mag AR lower won't work for what I've wanted to build. Let me know if you find options for a proper stick mag.
wscottstewart
07-12-17, 17:53
Well, it probably also gives the 9mm enough velocity to still function properly at 100...
I'm not opposed to the idea, just don't get hung up on needing it when it's probably more just a want.
Glock mag AR lower won't work for what I've wanted to build. Let me know if you find options for a proper stick mag.
THIS IS THE ISSUE with most AR platform pistol calibers. I have a direct impingement 10 mm A.R.. It shoots phenomenally. But the feeding issues are there because the platform is designed for a much longer OAL than any pistol cartridge I am aware of.
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Well, it probably also gives the 9mm enough velocity to still function properly at 100...
I'm not opposed to the idea, just don't get hung up on needing it when it's probably more just a want.
Glock mag AR lower won't work for what I've wanted to build. Let me know if you find options for a proper stick mag.
Oh that is without a doubt. For serious business 5.56mm is what I'd trust. Nonetheless, it would be kinda cool.......
Viability of 357SIG/Auto in general notwithstanding, it would quirky from a strictly functional perspective. Despite being a bottlenecked cartridge, it is short, chubby, with a history of bullet setback issues. A custom house could chase its tail, but it's not a contender for any quantity production.
Quarter Circle 10 makes them for the small frame Glock lower. Is your primary pistol a .357 SIG Glock? If you just want it because and have the money I say go for it. But I decided years ago to consolidate my calibers. After I got leukemia I took a hard look at what I had and sold a bunch of stuff. I wish I had a few of them back but don't miss most. It was important to me at the time. It might not be for others. Looks like Quarter Circle 10 & Ranier have the lowers and bolts in stock but no bbls.
These folks list them: https://www.strongsidetactical.com/quarter-circle-10-barrels-357-sig/
https://www.quartercircle10.com/
https://www.quartercircle10.com/products/barrels/357-sig.html
https://www.rainierarms.com/quarter-circle-10-357-sig-40-s-w-10mm-auto-bolt-assembly/
https://www.rainierarms.com/quarter-circle-10-glock-large-frame-lower-receiver/?nosto=nosto-page-product2
Lone Wolf is advertising their G9 AR carbine length uppers in .357 sig although they don't actually show them for sale yet.
Outside of 9mm caliber choices in ARs are few, and pricey. Although since PSA rolled out their .45acp AR I've seen both the carbine & pistol on sale for under $700, and it'll probably get a lot cheaper than that.
I picked up a TNW ASR 16" carbine in 10mm earlier this year, so far it's been great, no issues. Compared to my JRC .45 I sold the TNW is quite a bit lighter and more compact.
From TNW's site it looks like the 10mm bolt & extractor are identical for .40 & .357 sig so I could buy their .357 sig barrel for $125 and shoot that as well from my 10mm mags. Since the barrel just screws on by hand it's a simple swap.
The ASR lower comes in two sizes, small frame mags for 9/40/.357 and large frame mags for .45 & 10mm. From what I've read .357 runs fine in the Glock 10mm mags.
if you wanted to run the G31/32/33 mags you'd have to pick up the small frame lower as well for $150
batman4706
08-12-17, 09:53
Rudy at Macon Armory is working on 10MM, trying to get reliable feeding. I have one of his DI 45ACP uppers and a 7.62x25 Tokarev also. They function great. The length of the 7.62x25 is about the same as a 357 Sig.
titsonritz
08-18-17, 13:19
Why not just re-chamber the 9mm barrel or your choice to .357 SIG?
Does the Underwood Leigh Defense round in 357 sig 65 grain plus p at 2100FPS bring the round into a new deal?
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/357-sig-65-grain-xtreme-defender?variant=7865934315577
Underwood said the velocity is out of a 4.5" barrel.
Rudy at Macon Armory is working on 10MM, trying to get reliable feeding. I have one of his DI 45ACP uppers and a 7.62x25 Tokarev also. They function great. The length of the 7.62x25 is about the same as a 357 Sig.
When I bought my D/I .45 upper (probably going on 3+ years back), was talking it over with Rudy over the phone. He said that he was building .357 SIG uppers for someone to use in conjunction with their issued .357 SIG duty weapon. Want to say either the P226 or P229 magazines... but was more of an aside, as I was only considering .45 or 9mm.
Would definitely touch base with him if there was interest in .357 SIG. If blowback, he will sell barrels/parts to make your own. I’ve never heard of a D/I .357 SIG, which I’m sure would be mentioned if he got it reliable enough for market, but I know he wouldn’t sell those D/I setups in anyway other than a complete upper.
I had an issue with the gas rings binding up (he had a batch of one piece rings that were defective), and Rudy pretty much said that he considers these uppers like his kids. I recommend any company where the owner speaks that highly of his product (opposed to “it is the best, my competition don’t have s*** on me”), because you know he wants it to run for you instead of it being primarily about the money.
And just noticed the age of the thread...
indianalex01
12-07-18, 00:33
Can't find one for the life of me (using Google at least). Lone Wolf and Quarter Circle 10 have them on hold. Anyone know of one that functions well?
I think the 357Sig would make an awesome little PDW-type weapon, and an AR pistol format would be awesome.
Because it’s a dead or dying round. Not going to make them enough money to produce it.
Why?
Business rules and profit.
It doesn't matter if you and 5 friends want one.
Get 10K friends and then, maybe. But likely still not.
Mr. Goodtimes
12-07-18, 12:34
Because it’s a stupid idea.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Because it’s a stupid idea.
Valuable input. Can't thank you enough.
:rolleyes:
I work as Merchant Marine Officer. I get a lot of ocean towing work because I am also a licensed Vessel Security Officer. We usually tow knocked down oil rigs from the western hemisphere to various African oil ports. On the average we sight pirates on every voyage and have to discourage then about half the time. We have had to repel them 9 times. Tugs with large tows make very attractive targets for pirates because they are low free board, and usually quite slow(how fast can one tow a barge about 3-4 acres in deck area?).
9mm is the most popular caliber for handguns and SMGs because the ammo is available everywhere. For long range "discouragement" a .50 BMG round is about the ultimate, next would be the Dillon minigun because although its accurate range may be less than the .50, it does churn up a lot of water and can be walked onto a really long range target.
I have packed a .357 Sig 226 from time to time, but decided that the range advantage was wasted in a handgun, although the close up effects are substantially better than the 9mm. I thought about a MP5 in .40 S&W, but one does not want to have a really unusual caliber in an environment where ammo replenishment might have to be from a shipmate who has a 9mm.
If I could have found a .357 Sig barrel for the MP5 I might have gone for it. But with the MP5 there are other things that would have to be modified. The best bet for a .357 Sig SMG might be a M3 "grease gun" which can be seriously messed with and still function-and they did make the M3 (not the M3A1) in 9mm.
Usually the whole crew, 11-14 on the tug and 5-7 on the barge will be packing 9mms usually Sigs, the dedicated VSO will also carry a long gun, SMG or .308 auto rifle, FALs are favored. Simply put, handgun and SMGs will be up close and personal, and the difference between a hot 9mm and .357 Sig probably won't be noticed. And try and find .357 Sig ammo in Lagos, Nigeria!
SeriousStudent
12-12-18, 00:15
Jack, I'd be very interested in hearing more about this when you have time, and security aspects permitting.
It would make for an interesting thread to read when you have the time and inclination.
And stay safe.
E-mail me at jmanley909@aol.com
Reason I chose 357Sig is at the higher velocities it should shoot flatter than a 9mm and probably a 10mm too. While the bullets in 9mm and 357Sig may be similar the terminal ballistics of the Sig pull ahead simply because of the velocity.
Considering that 124gr. 9mm will shoot to POA at 100 yards out of a 4" pistol, how much flatter do you need?
halfmoonclip
12-14-18, 23:30
Availability of ammo is certainly an issue. For me, the larger problem is reloading. The bottlenecked .357 Sig case has to be treated like a rifle cartridge, including trimming and lubing.
Just too much trouble if you're going to generate a lot of ammo; might as well be messing with 5.56.
Interesting hearing from the merchant mariner, and pirates off the coast of North Africa? Is there nothing new under the sun! Cue the Marine hymn.
Moon
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