View Full Version : Seecamp .380 for shorts weather?
I know, it's a mouse gun. But a mouse gun in your shorts pocket is better than the compact 9mm or J-frame left at home when it's 100+ degrees outside. I do not dress around the gun. I did that for 25 years as a LEO. I'm done with that...It's too &*^% hot in my AO for "me" IWB right now.
Back in my LEO days, a patrol partner carried a .32 Seecamp back in the day as a BUG. He loved it.
I've got a Ruger LCP II, but the finish is prone to rust, and the trigger is light for a pocket gun. Yes, it's kept in a pocket holster, but it's still lighter than what I like for a pocket BUG. The light trigger pull of the Glock rules that one out for me. I'm looking for reliability as criteria #1, and SMALL size AND LIGHT WEIGHT as criteria #2. I love my J-frame, but sometimes, even it prints too much in shorts.
The Seecamp is considerably smaller than the Ruger or the Glock .380 options. It's reliable, but expensive. It also has a nice FIRM trigger pull which is something I want for a pocked BUG. Anyone have any experience??? Worst case, I'll just live with the LCP II as between that and my j-frame, I can make those work 90% this time of year.
A shitty gun beats no gun, but I can hide a shield in board shorts and a wife-beater/a shirt. What are you guys wearing that a g43 or cm9 or shield cannot be hidden with? Are you talking shirtless carry?
Simple. Most The shorts I wear out and about are not compatible with belts, so there goes IWB.
Two words... Pocket carry. Again, I don't dress around the gun. At least for me and my frame size, the shield is too big and heavy to comfortably be pocket carried.
Not to mention I'm not comfortable carrying a striker in the pocket. Even in a holster.
If we haven't guessed by now, I'm talking pocket carry only. If I want to dress like Colombo in the middle of August, I have plenty of options.
I've had the chance to play around w/ a few Seecamps and found their engineering and quality is outstanding. But I've not kept abreast of 32ACP carry loads, like a good CorBon loading.
Personally I use the S&W 380 Bodyguard w/ laser in that role. I like the idea on the built-in laser.
What about the Ruger in a pocket holster?
Maybe the Beretta Tomcat 32?
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Might be worth looking at the Khar P380. I had one that I would carry in the hot AZ summers when something larger was not possible It is maybe slightly shorter than the LCP, but it has a long trigger pull similar to a J frame. I never had a problem with mine and only sold it since i moved up north where the summers are not 115 degrees. I had a Tomcat and it broke the firing pin in the first 30 rounds and then the frame cracked around 150 rounds.
SeriousStudent
07-13-17, 19:15
Personally, I would get a Dark Star Gear holster: http://darkstargear.com/product/jframe/
And hunt down a used Scandium J-frame revolver. I use a Smith and Wesson 342 for that chore.
You have 5 rounds of 39 Special, which I would definitely prefer over a .32 or a .380. The entire thing loaded with the holster is probably less weight than the Seecamp 380, and probably the same cost. But much better resale value of you decide to ditch it.
Personally, I would get a Dark Star Gear holster: http://darkstargear.com/product/jframe/
And hunt down a used Scandium J-frame revolver. I use a Smith and Wesson 342 for that chore.
You have 5 rounds of 39 Special, which I would definitely prefer over a .32 or a .380. The entire thing loaded with the holster is probably less weight than the Seecamp 380, and probably the same cost. But much better resale value of you decide to ditch it.
Same clip on a ctac holster works for a shield . I forget the brand but my friend carries a shield in gym shorts daily, including his daily 3 mile run.
I don't have any advice on the seecamp or 32, so I'm out after this, but i can almost guarantee you can hide a shield. Like I said, I don't dress around the gun either. Outside of an under armor compression shirt, it's all about holster. Not the most comfortable, but it can be done. Life is full of compromise, but I'm not talking about dressing like columbo, and that was stated in my OP. Good luck in your search.
I have a Ruger lcp1 that I had the slide, barrel, and recoil rod plated. Works great, I can sweat on it all day and no rust.
You have 5 rounds of 39 Special, which I would definitely prefer over a .32 or a .380.
Someone here once posted a link to FBI caliber/stoppage statistics and the 380 w/ a modern loading actually outperformed the 38 Special.
Drifting Fate
07-13-17, 21:20
Shorts are just cut-off pants, but if you don't want to IWB, then I can understand that as I live in the metro-Phoenix area. 115 degrees is just plain HOT. It's amazing how well a small revolver or 9mm sub-compact will conceal under an untucked t-shirt or polo shirt when worn OWB in a pancake style holster, at least for me.
As for the Seecamp, one of my happiest days was when I sold it off. While small and light, it was downright abusive to fire and impossible to hit with any precision, a definite bad-breath gun if there ever was one. Don't know if a .380 is better than a 135grn Gold Dot .38 +P out of a snub, but a J-frame is as small as I will go because, 1) I can at least hit well within the 7yd circle, and 2) the arch of the frame makes it come to the hand much better than a semi-auto when carried in a pocket. Yes, the cylinder is bulkier, but it's an acceptable trade off.
SeriousStudent
07-13-17, 22:39
Someone here once posted a link to FBI caliber/stoppage statistics and the 380 w/ a modern loading actually outperformed the 38 Special.
I'd be very interested in seeing a .380 that outperformed a 135-grain Gold Dot in 38 Special. I'm saying that as a person that own's one Glock 42, and seven Smith and Wesson J-frames.
Beat Trash
07-14-17, 08:16
About 25 years ago, I bought a 32 acc Seecamp to use as a BUG as uniform LEO. Great gun to carry, shitty gun to shoot. Mine was designed to use the Winchester Silvertip ammunition exclusively. So it was expensive to shoot. But it was the BUG gun to carry according to the gun magazines of the time.
I started to notice the rounds would keyhole when shooting cardboard at 5 yards. Once I noticed that, I sold it off. One of the few guns that I have sold off with no regrets.
I'd much rather get a Kahr PM9 than a Scamp 380. I had one of those for about 8 years and used it as a summer pocket gun. I only sold it off because it was too small for my hands.
I've had a lot of pocket guns.
Over the years I've learned that 20 oz is the most I'll put up with in a pocket. My Ruger LCR .357 is 19 oz loaded. A little big, like you (Op) said about the j-frames.
In a pocket pistol I wouldn't worry about caliber much. But I don't much anyway. Either way the barrel will be short and grip short.
Consider the kahr .380. I've only held them. Small, long trigger. I'm guessing about 16 oz loaded. 6+1 I think. Feels quality.
Exact same for the Beretta Pico. Never fired one of those, either though.
Try the Kel-tec P32. It's 10 oz (loaded!) And very thin. Basically no sights, 7+1 shots, last shot hold open, looong, light trigger. Feels cheap, looks cheap, doesn't cost much. But they usually work well. Mine did, now a relative carries it. Finish is gone. But somehow lubricated only with his pocket lint the thing has never had a stoppage. (I then clean/lightly lube it for him) 600 rnds or so through it, European fmj only.
It barely kicks at all. Nothing like the little .380's. Oh, 9- rnd mags from keltec available and work just fine.
Consider the S&w bodyguard .380. (6+1) It's about 16 oz loaded. Recoil not as bad as the gen 1 LCP. Long, heavy trigger. Built more rugged than the keltec. Sounds like it would suit you. These are inexpensive these days. Available with or without safety. Can put real sights on it. Factory sights are a little small.
All of the pistols above function with a recoil reducing locked breach.
If you want something nearly as light as the keltec but nicely made consider the Beretta jetfire and bobcat. The .32 Tomcat (7+1) has always had issues and is over 17 oz loaded. Its a bit fat and like others sights are small. DA/SA. Trigger is looong but not very heavy. The jetfire (SA, 8+1) and bobcat (DA/SA, 8+1) are 11-14 oz loaded if I recall. They are .22 and .25 though. The .22's hold one less round. Nice triggers, especially the SA Jetfire. Not made since 2002 though. New Bobcats in .22 only. It's hard for any small .22 to work well.
I would choose the Bodyguard for a .380, (though id want to try the new gen 3 Pico first) the keltec for a .32, and the Beretta Jetfire in .25. I do carry a Jetfire as a BUG. I shoot it more Accurately and quickly than the other two. But it does take an extra step before firing. (Cocking hammer)
Like any pistol, 200 rnds before any trust. A few stoppages don't rule it out for me. By 500 rnds with no/no further issues I call it vetted and will carry it.
I've had a lot of pocket guns.
Try the Kel-tec P32. It's 10 oz (loaded!) And very thin. Basically no sights, 7+1 shots, last shot hold open, looong, light trigger. Feels cheap, looks cheap, doesn't cost much. But they usually work well. Mine did, now a relative carries it. Finish is gone. But somehow lubricated only with his pocket lint the thing has never had a stoppage. (I then clean/lightly lube it for him) 600 rnds or so through it, European fmj only.
It barely kicks at all. Nothing like the little .380's. Oh, 9- rnd mags from keltec available and work just fine.
OK, since someone else admits to owning a Keltec 32, I 'fess up, too. I own one and ditto to above. It is surprisingly easy to shoot and hit what you're shooting at.
Double ditto to: Euro FMJ ammo. FMJ eliminates rim lock and no 32 hollow point is going to get really good penetration.
One guy's opinion: a lot of folks who know more than I do recommend FMJ for 380's. I figure if I am going to punch a pencil sized hole, and my life hangs on the difference in .32 and .380, then it's my time to go. (sidebar- this may warrant re-evaluation; understand some 380 loads are now expanding 1.5x AND getting 12 " penetration)
It is rare I carry it. But it can be carried when nothing else is possible. I swear, I think you could duct tape it to the cheek of your butt.
My 380 Seecamp is painful to shoot. Even 7 rounds hurts.
If you can't find one to test fire, avoid it. OTOH: the 32 is perfect for what it is designed for, which is hiding in a pair of shorts.
If you have your mind set on a Seecamp as the solution to your problems, rock it out.
Personally my original LCP is a great not carrying a gun, gun. It rusted in a single day back in 2008 while moving the in laws in humid weather, but after getting all the metal parts refinished, it has been great and never rusted again.
Now I use either a MP340 or G42 for pocket carry in hot weather. You wont carry a striker fired gun, but I can't help that. I use a Vedder pocket locker and only reholster by taking the holster out, reholstering, then putting the holster in my pocket. The MP340 has seen lots of pocket / ankle use, but I've been using the G42 since reload times blow the 340 out of the water and I'm confident shooting it much further than the LCP or 340. Add in ETS 7 and 9rd magazines, it handling like a normal semi auto and not a pocket rocket, and for me the G42 is hard to beat. I prefer Fiocchi and Hornady 90gr XTP loads over the others. Yes, I know it's a 380, but it's better than harsh language.
Still a big fan of a J-frame and 135gr Speer GDHP Short Barrel as a BUG, but carrying light in today's environment, I prefer quick reloads. I should get back to the G19 but in this weather it can be a bitch to pull off comfortably.
Thanks everyone so far. Great insight.
As many mention, my PD-340 works 8 times out of 10. Funny thing, loaded with 5 x .357 Mag, I can't tell the difference in weight between it and the LCP II.. THIS is why I'm looking for even a smaller mouse gun in .380.. The LCP is much thinner though and almost disappears in a pocket.
Sounds like most become negligible in differences when you get down to that size... If the finish on the LCP was better, she'd be a keeper. I like the size of the Seecamp, but I'm not getting enough positive feedback to go spend $600+/- on one. Might have to look at he Kahr P380. I've heard a lot of good things on that one.
Many thanks for the great discussion on mouse guns.
Honestly if the finish is your only complaint on the LCP, send the barrel and slide to CCR for "House Black" refinish to the slide and CPII to the barrel.
They did mine and I've abused the crap out of it for 9 years, front pocket, rear pocket, occasional IWB and it looks brand new.
http://ccrrefinishing.com
IIRC they discount for small firearms like the LCP, so it's usually less than the prices listed.
I have an Uncle Mike's pocket holster for my Ruger LCP. Aren't those supposed to be lined so as to keep sweat from getting through to the gun?
P380, use it when wearing gym shorts or long days at the office wearing scrubs. The Ulti-Clip is great for beltless carry.
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556BlackRifle
07-15-17, 11:43
IMO you'd be better served carrying your LCP2 than the Seacamp. I know two Seacamp owners and both say that the pistol is less than reliable. I have an LCP 1 and even with the looooong trigger pull / reset, lack of sights and diminutive size, it shoots decent groups and has proven to be reliable. Although slightly larger, in a proper pocket holster, the LCP2 should look like a wallet in your pocket.
FWIW I own & have carried both a NAA Guardian (stainless)380 & a Ruger LCP(blued)380 as BUGs here in hot humid FL. Neither the NAA nor the Ruger LCP in 380 are any "fun" at all to practice with but if ever actually needed for their intended purpose I doubt that the lack of "fun" will be an issue. The NAA is not a light BUG but has never shown signs of rust and has worked with out fail for approx 500 rds now. The Ruger is light and has now run approx 500 rds without failure, but it will start to rust rather quickly. Both will now shoot till empty every time and will at 7yards group the the size of my medium sized fist(with the ammo the guns decided to eat without issue). BTW I almost always wear shorts & a fishing shirt, & EDC carry a Glock model-19. Good luck and maybe check out the NAA offering.
IMO you'd be better served carrying your LCP2 than the Seacamp. I know two Seacamp owners and both say that the pistol is less than reliable. I have an LCP 1 and even with the looooong trigger pull / reset, lack of sights and diminutive size, it shoots decent groups and has proven to be reliable. Although slightly larger, in a proper pocket holster, the LCP2 should look like a wallet in your pocket.
THANK YOU! I'm getting enough feedback on the seecamp now. Reviews are moderate at best.
I think I'll just make do with the LCP II now for days that my j-frame seems too bulky. The little sucker is pretty accurate. I was shooting pretty good groups at 15 yards. At the rate things are going, someone will be making a full 9x19 capable weapon about the same size as the LCP in a few years.
THANK YOU! I'm getting enough feedback on the seecamp now. Reviews are moderate at best.
I think I'll just make do with the LCP II now for days that my j-frame seems too bulky. The little sucker is pretty accurate. I was shooting pretty good groups at 15 yards. At the rate things are going, someone will be making a full 9x19 capable weapon about the same size as the LCP in a few years.
Actually Rohrbaugh has been for a few years now but they're pricey.
Edit: looks like they were sold to Remington over 3 years ago. Don't think they're still made.
SeriousStudent
07-15-17, 14:30
Actually Rohrbaugh has been for a few years now but they're pricey.
Edit: looks like they were sold to Remington over 3 years ago. Don't think they're still made.
Have you had a chance to shoot one? I am curious how well they would feed, with such compact dimensions.
Have you had a chance to shoot one? I am curious how well they would feed, with such compact dimensions.
Actually I owned one but I'll bet it's been the better part of 10 years ago. I know +P ammo was verboten and the one time I fired it I don't recall any issues, although I don't remember what ammo I used. It was rather spunky. The reason I sold it is because it was a PIA to field strip for cleaning; there was something about it's construction that precluded normal field stripping. I figured for a pocket gun that lint and stuff like that might be a hindrance over time and the inability to get at it easily turned me off.
I wanna say it was north of $800 IIRC.
SeriousStudent
07-15-17, 20:52
Actually I owned one but I'll bet it's been the better part of 10 years ago. I know +P ammo was verboten and the one time I fired it I don't recall any issues, although I don't remember what ammo I used. It was rather spunky. The reason I sold it is because it was a PIA to field strip for cleaning; there was something about it's construction that precluded normal field stripping. I figured for a pocket gun that lint and stuff like that might be a hindrance over time and the inability to get at it easily turned me off.
I wanna say it was north of $800 IIRC.
Gotcha. I vaguely remembering seeing an R9 at the range years ago, and the guy said it was pretty fussy.
Rohrbaugh was bought by Remington a couple of years ago, FWIW.
IIRC, you had to change the recoil springs at 500 RDS and it was designd to be bought, tested reliable, then shot very sparingly. Not a gun you practice with often.
I've got a Ruger LCP II, but the finish is prone to rust, and the trigger is light for a pocket gun. Yes, it's kept in a pocket holster, but it's still lighter than what I like for a pocket BUG.I feel the same. A pocket gun is not a duty gun and I can't believe the triggers on many of them. alghouth they don't list models I am sure many of the sad stories that make the news involve these.
I'd be very interested in seeing a .380 that outperformed a 135-grain Gold Dot in 38 Special. I'm saying that as a person that own's one Glock 42, and seven Smith and Wesson J-frames.May be waiting a while considering they fire lighter bullets at slower velocity ha!
I have no doubt that 5 shots of Speer 135gr GDHP 38SPL +P Short Barrel outperforms 5 shots of pretty much any 380 load, but does it outperform 17 shots of 90gr Fiocchi or Hornady 380 ACP XTP? Because I can accurately fire 8, reload, and fire 9 more from a G42 before I can fire 5 Speer and reload 5 more.
In days gone by I'd just count on 1 threat and 5 shots of Speer would be enough. But moving out to 2-3 threats and I think more 380s, delivered faster and more accurately (for me) to be the better solution (for me).
Obviously a 9MM +P solution is even better but as in all things in life, it's trade offs you decide to make.
IIRC, you had to change the recoil springs at 500 RDS and it was designd to be bought, tested reliable, then shot very sparingly. Not a gun you practice with often.
Pretty much this.
Rohrbaugh was bought by Remington a couple of years ago, FWIW.
IIRC, you had to change the recoil springs at 500 RDS and it was designd to be bought, tested reliable, then shot very sparingly. Not a gun you practice with often.
Actually, I am fairly certain the recoil spring needed to be changed every 100 rounds, at least per Rohrbaugh.
Dionysusigma
07-16-17, 11:28
FMJ eliminates rim lock
:blink: Wait, what?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrD16CBEJRs
Actually, I am fairly certain the recoil spring needed to be changed every 100 rounds, at least per Rohrbaugh.
Could very well have been that. A niche gun IMO, for a specific customer.
Could very well have been that. A niche gun IMO, for a specific customer.
Agreed, a very niche gun. Doesn't mean it was a bad gun, just one of those guns designed from the ground up as a BUG or pocket pistol and to be originally chambered in 9mm. I mean, hell, I don't think they had much if anything in the way of sights on some of the models.
Anyway, we are kind of digressing on the whole thing.
I have no doubt that 5 shots of Speer 135gr GDHP 38SPL +P Short Barrel outperforms 5 shots of pretty much any 380 load, but does it outperform 17 shots of 90gr Fiocchi or Hornady 380 ACP XTP? Because I can accurately fire 8, reload, and fire 9 more from a G42 before I can fire 5 Speer and reload 5 more.If the round cannot penetrate deep enough or the shot placement is not good enough with the reduced expansion. 38 SPL leaves much to be desired in this department also so this is not me saying 380 is bad. I dont even like any 38 SPL loads out of these short barrels. I have to go to 9mm and 4"+ barrel before I get a truly great round. (even then its still a handgun).
A G42 does give you two extra shots (not getting into reloads) so I suppose if each 38 spl is 35% better (not sure I would go that high)---a G42 is still better overall. BUT i don't view them as competitors and you will not find me carrying a glock or other semiauto in any true pocket holster, or when rarely carried without a holster. roles that I would use revolvers for. so it's not a competition.
If you're really only worried about the finish on the Ruger LCPII why not just have the slide Ceracoated?
If the round cannot penetrate deep enough or the shot placement is not good enough with the reduced expansion. 38 SPL leaves much to be desired in this department also so this is not me saying 380 is bad. I dont even like any 38 SPL loads out of these short barrels. I have to go to 9mm and 4"+ barrel before I get a truly great round. (even then its still a handgun).
A G42 does give you two extra shots (not getting into reloads) so I suppose if each 38 spl is 35% better (not sure I would go that high)---a G42 is still better overall. BUT i don't view them as competitors and you will not find me carrying a glock or other semiauto in any true pocket holster, or when rarely carried without a holster. roles that I would use revolvers for. so it's not a competition.
Unless some recent JHP .380 rnds have changed the entire terminal ballistics POV of that rnd, if one is forced to carry .380. FMJ is recommend for that reason. No expansion of course, but adequate penetration. Penetration beats expansion in handgun rnds, all things being equal.
Friends don't let friends CCW .380. :cool:
If you're really only worried about the finish on the Ruger LCPII why not just have the slide Ceracoated?
That was one of two concerns.. The other is a VERY light trigger pull for a pocket gun. It "almost" feels like a striker fire, but it's an internal hammer. I'm going to keep exploring for something with a more stout trigger. I've heard the Kahr P380 has this, but I've never been able to get my hands on one to try out. The Ruger is just inside my safety comfort zone as I've been carrying now for 30 years. I'll just keep it if I cant find something that works better for ME.
I have no doubt that 5 shots of Speer 135gr GDHP 38SPL +P Short Barrel outperforms 5 shots of pretty much any 380 load, but does it outperform 17 shots of 90gr Fiocchi or Hornady 380 ACP XTP? Because I can accurately fire 8, reload, and fire 9 more from a G42 before I can fire 5 Speer and reload 5 more.
This IS a factor that makes me feel "better" on the 2 out of 10 days when the .380 gets carry duty. Which factors in to my response to Will...
Unless some recent JHP .380 rnds have changed the entire terminal ballistics POV of that rnd, if one is forced to carry .380. FMJ is recommend for that reason. No expansion of course, but adequate penetration. Penetration beats expansion in handgun rnds, all things being equal.
Don't forget shot placement. While I ALWAYS try to at least carry my .357 Mag J-frame, my LCP II is much more accurate at speed when distance is pushed out past 3 meters. Heck, I can QUICKLY dump 7 rounds ON TARGET at 15 yards with the LCP. If a reload is involved, I can dump 6 more rather quickly. Up close and personal, the advantage goes to the J-frame.
Friends don't let friends CCW .380. :cool:
Point taken, but it goes back to... The .380 ON YOU, is better than the _______ left at home or the car.
All... THANKS for the great discussion! Lots of GREAT points being brought up!
Here is my philosophy for hot summer days when the .380 gets the duty based on clothing attire and I'm OK with it. Simply put, I'm not a LEO anymore. I don't go out looking to save the world anymore as I was paid to do as a LEO. My Detective mentor at the PD taught me back in the day five simple things to keep you out of trouble when off duty or being retired... KEEP - Your situational awareness at all times, and; AVOID - Stupid people, doing Stupid things, and/or going to Stupid places, at Stupid times. Given where I live now, the .380 works fine for after diner walks with the wife, and/or a quick run to the store when I'm wearing gym shorts and flip-flops. Anything more than that, I have at least the J-frame .357, a 9mm, .45, or .357 Sig. variant on me... If I feel like I might need anything larger... I'll stay home.
This IS a factor that makes me feel "better" on the 2 out of 10 days when the .380 gets carry duty. Which factors in to my response to Will...
Don't forget shot placement. While I ALWAYS try to at least carry my .357 Mag J-frame, my LCP II is much more accurate at speed when distance is pushed out past 3 meters. Heck, I can QUICKLY dump 7 rounds ON TARGET at 15 yards with the LCP. If a reload is involved, I can dump 6 more rather quickly. Up close and personal, the advantage goes to the J-frame.
.
That goes without saying, but as always a balance between terminal ballistics and shot placement is the issue, or we'd all CCW .22 short. Personally, if I were to CCW .380, it would be with FMJ from what I understand of the .380 and what the doc et al recommend. You're mileage may differ.
You can say the same about 38 spl too. Have Hornady 158 gr in my pocket now ...it is basically a fmj at snubby speeds. there are some montrous guys here. I dont want to make a perfect side shot and have it stop short of the spine or heart. The hp design unloads a little energy so it stops well short of a fmj however. Which is good
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