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Alaskapopo
10-03-08, 00:00
Ok I am slowly improving but I need to get faster. I am a C class shooter in USPSA. When I started I was in the 45% range and I have worked up to the 53% range in limited and limited 10. But some of my friends have passed me by getting their B class. I am accurate and usually shoot 95% A's on any given courses of fire. But my times are slower than I want. Most of my training has been as a leo. What schools do you guys recommend for competition shooting to get faster while maintaining good accuracy. I want to get to B class sometime.
Pat

Jay Cunningham
10-03-08, 00:04
http://pistol-training.com/

ToddG
10-03-08, 00:40
T_K, thanks for the plug. :cool:

Pat -- Getting faster is something that you need to do in stages. There isn't a single thing that makes you fast, and certain lessons need to be learned and ingrained before you can move on to the next effectively.


Right off the bat, to be accurate when going fast you have to be accurate when going slow. It sounds like you've got that covered.
You can't go fast if the gun is out of control. Grip (and to a small extent stance) play a major role in keeping the gun in control. Note that "in control" doesn't mean unmoving. Recoil happens. Recoil is not bad. Recoil does not make you slow. Lack of control makes you slow.
You can't shoot faster than you can pull the trigger. Learn to reset and prep during the recoil of the gun. By the time the gun is back down on target, you should be at the breaking point with the trigger.
You can't get good hits faster than you can see your sights. No matter how fast you can yank the trigger, it's nothing but making noise unless you are controlling where the bullets fly. Your front sight is like a traffic light. Learn when it's showing red, and learn when it's showing green. Learn to track the front sight as it leaves the rear notch, follow it up, follow it back down, and break your next shot as soon as the green light comes on.
You can't determine how fast you're going just by how it feels or how it sounds. You need a shot timer. Better yet, get a shot timer and a video camera. Watch yourself, analyze where you're adding wasted motion or pauses in your technique. This is where the old mantra of smooth is fast really proves itself. You'll quickly find that your fastest runs on a drill are the ones that feel slow and relaxed, while the ones that felt fast & tense are always slower.
At a certain point, the only way to get faster is to go faster. That means pushing yourself, accepting that you'll have misses, and forcing your eyes/finger to speed up to meet your pace. "It's OK to miss sometimes" is a hard lesson for a lot of shooters to learn, but it's a necessity if you're going to make major gains in speed. The problem is that it's also a siren song, and soon people start compromising their marksmanship fundamentals in the name of speed. Your bullseye accuracy should never suffer because of your speed training. If you find that suddenly you can't shoot as accurately as you used to even when slowing down, it's time to put fast on hold and work on those fundamentals more.
Along the same lines, always work on basic accuracy/marksmanship every time you go to the range. You don't have to make your eyes bleed, but shoot some groups or some walkback drills or similar slow-paced accuracy-intensive drills. Your marksmanship should always be improving, regardless of whether you're also working on improving your speed.
Finally, learn when to be fast and when to be slow. There is no one speed for shooting. Hitting a 12" circle at 10yd can be accomplished very fast with little or no aiming and little or no trigger control. Hitting a 1" circle at that same distance is a whole different story. Speed up when you can, slow down when you must.
IPSC is a game that rewards speed at the cost of accuracy; if you want to excel at it, you've got to accept that Alpha-Charlies win matches at the C/B level more than Two-Alphas do. It's messed up, but it's the way the scoring system works.


There are specific drills you can use for each of these steps, but neat drills are easy to come by. Understanding what you're trying to accomplish, setting realistic goals, and pushing yourself to achieve them are what take real effort.

Of course, the above only addresses shooting faster. Winning in IPSC is more about foot speed, game tactics, set-ups, etc. than shooting speed. People who move fast and shoot slow will always win over people who shoot fast but move slow.

gringop
10-03-08, 15:59
The only thing that I can add to the excellent advice above is to learn how to relax at the start of the stage. Any excitement/peer pressure/performance anxiety that you have will negatively affect your performance.

You should understand that all preparation and speed increases are accomplished in your practice sessions. At the match, forget any worries/expectations and just shoot. I find that autogenic breathing at the LAMR helps me out tremendously.

Not to be too zen/yoda/mystic but this really does work.

Gringop

Alaskapopo
10-03-08, 17:22
Thanks guys. I do need to work on target transitions and some of the other things you mentioned.
Pat

Bryan W
10-06-08, 19:51
IPSC is a game that rewards speed at the cost of accuracy; if you want to excel at it, you've got to accept that Alpha-Charlies win matches at the C/B level more than Two-Alphas do. It's messed up, but it's the way the scoring system works.
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Todd's post overall had some very nice pointers. Good work Todd. But, a concern I have is with the last bullet point about accepting the alpha/charlie hit more than 2 Alpha. I think at a club level match you might slip by in the OK category using this thinking, but at a major USPSA event that one just won't cut it...

No matter what the opinion is about USPSA/IPSC awarding wins to sloppy fast shooting, it just is not correct. At the upper ends of this sport, you have to be fast and accurate. What this means is that overall in a major match you had better be shooting over 90% of the available points on paper - 95% is even better. At a club match, you might get away with it but you won't at a major. It's just that simple. Want proof? Go check out the major match results on USPSA.org and take a look at the top 10 results from any major match.

Lastly, shooting max points at speed is even more important if you're shooting production. With minor scoring, even at low end matches, you had better be shooting lots of A's. :D

ToddG
10-06-08, 22:19
BW -- I don't disagree that, to quote you, "at the upper ends of the sport" you need to be hitting Alphas. My comment, which you quoted, spoke to C/B-class shooters. In my experience, speed trumps accuracy fairly often in those classes.

Wayne Dobbs
10-07-08, 19:10
Patrick(popo),

If you haven't read Brian Enos' book Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals, you should. I will tell you up front that it's a pretty tough read at times, but while I'm no Grand Master, this book helped me learn more in less time about high level shooting performance than has anything else out there. You might also try to find a copy of Mike Plaxco's Shooting From Within if you can locate a copy (out of print).

Finally, if you're on the GM card quest, you probably should pony up the money and time for a really solid trainer (or three) to work with you in formal training sessions. You've already come a long way!

Alaskapopo
10-07-08, 19:46
Patrick(popo),

If you haven't read Brian Enos' book Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals, you should. I will tell you up front that it's a pretty tough read at times, but while I'm no Grand Master, this book helped me learn more in less time about high level shooting performance than has anything else out there. You might also try to find a copy of Mike Plaxco's Shooting From Within if you can locate a copy (out of print).

Finally, if you're on the GM card quest, you probably should pony up the money and time for a really solid trainer (or three) to work with you in formal training sessions. You've already come a long way!
Thanks Wayne. I will look into those books. Which trainers do you recommend. I would love to spend some vacation time learning from a pro.
Pat

Bryan W
10-08-08, 00:36
Todd,

I don't discount your points at all - you made some very good ones. At the club level matches you can get away with that level of accuracy in B/C - even M/GM to some degree. At the major matches you are much less likely to finish strong even in C class if you're shooting that many C's. No biggie - we can agree to disagree on this point.

Alaska,

Ron Avery - Practical Shooting Academy is as good as they get out there. He will come to your location if you host. Max Michael, US Army Marksmanship Unit is great if you can get him, and Manny Bragg does a great course. I'm partial to Avery, though.

Alaskapopo
10-08-08, 01:52
Todd,

I don't discount your points at all - you made some very good ones. At the club level matches you can get away with that level of accuracy in B/C - even M/GM to some degree. At the major matches you are much less likely to finish strong even in C class if you're shooting that many C's. No biggie - we can agree to disagree on this point.

Alaska,

Ron Avery - Practical Shooting Academy is as good as they get out there. He will come to your location if you host. Max Michael, US Army Marksmanship Unit is great if you can get him, and Manny Bragg does a great course. I'm partial to Avery, though.
My first formal instruction about 10 years ago was a 3 day practical handgun class with Avery. He is a very good shooter. But if I can be honest he is a bit of an ass. Is there someone else you recommend.
Pat

ToddG
10-08-08, 07:04
BW -- I'll happily bow to your superior experience in this matter. The biggest USPSA match I've ever attended has been the VA/MD Sectional. :D

Bryan W
10-08-08, 19:21
Nothing to bow down to Todd - You made excellent points. Nothing is a given on either side of this discussion, I guess.

Alaska, I can see where some might have that impression of Ron. Experiences vary obviously. I've known Ron for many years.

There are several GM's that teach - Manny is good. Also you can set up a training trip to USSA - and take a class with either Phil Strader or Mike Seeklander. Both are solid instructors and both are high performing GM's in the IPSC world. USSA-United States Shooting Academy, Tulsa OK. They are on the web.

uscbigdawg
10-08-08, 23:24
Like others, speed is a process. If you're getting your points, that's great 'cause most newbies don't do that. They just start sprayin' and prayin'.

Reading Brian's book is a great idea. For books here are some great ones to add:

- Shooting From Within by J. Michael Plaxco
- Practical Shooting Manual by Matt Burkett
- Everything by Saul Kirsch

For training aids, I would suggest the dry fire books from Steve Anderson. You will definitely crank up your trigger and gun speed after doing them habitually. Too, given your locale, dry fire is probably a requirement.

Videos aren't a bad idea as they give visual input to everything you're reading.

Finally, quality instruction is key. I have taken classes from Matt Burkett, Mike Voigt and Bennie Cooley. Of course shooting with folks in CA and AZ doesn't hurt either. Any of these guys would be happy to work with you, but don't rule out like my buddy gotm4 suggested and that's attending the USSA.

Rich

drawson
10-12-08, 20:38
You have a great shooter trainer up there in Alaska, I think he's in Fairbanks. He lived down here in Utah and got me on my path the Master, while he was here. His Name is Bill Filiaga. He has a gun store up the call something like Protec Guns. All I have is his E-mail address... protec@acsalaska.net

Write him and tell him Dee Rawson told you to get ahold of him, he'll help you ramp up your speed...

Alaskapopo
10-13-08, 02:27
You have a great shooter trainer up there in Alaska, I think he's in Fairbanks. He lived down here in Utah and got me on my path the Master, while he was here. His Name is Bill Filiaga. He has a gun store up the call something like Protec Guns. All I have is his E-mail address... protec@acsalaska.net

Write him and tell him Dee Rawson told you to get ahold of him, he'll help you ramp up your speed...

I shot with Bill today at a USPSA match. He is very very good but he does not teach he has no time.
Pat

RWK
10-13-08, 07:55
Ok I am slowly improving but I need to get faster. ... I am accurate and usually shoot 95% A's on any given courses of fire. But my times are slower than I want.

My first question is: get faster at what? I think you'd be best served by first identifying some specific areas for improvement. What's slowing you down? Presentations? Reloads? Multiple targets? Moving between shooting points?

Are you shooting too slowly for the sake of accuracy? Don't be afraid to shoot 90% A's instead of 95%. Hell, let it all hang out on occasion and be happy with 80% A's / 20% B's. You'll learn what you can get away with and what you can't. If you're straining for that 95%, perhaps you're spending too much time on the sights. The only way to get fast is to go fast.

Have you tried having someone video record your performance during matches? You might be surprised by what you see.


What schools do you guys recommend for competition shooting to get faster while maintaining good accuracy. I want to get to B class sometime.

Want a good "go fast" school? http://rogers-shooting-school.com/

drawson
10-13-08, 08:52
I shot with Bill today at a USPSA match. He is very very good but he does not teach he has no time.
Pat

I didn't know he was so busy:( Tell him Hi when you see him again...

rob_s
10-13-08, 09:30
My first question is: get faster at what? I think you'd be best served by first identifying some specific areas for improvement. What's slowing you down? Presentations? Reloads? Multiple targets? Moving between shooting points?


Excellent points.

Having video of yourself shooting will help you to weed out inefficiency in your motions. I thought I had a decent pistol speed-load until I watched video of myself and saw that the ejected magazine was on the deck before I even had my off hand halfway to the spare mag.

Bryan W
10-13-08, 23:38
My first question is: get faster at what? I think you'd be best served by first identifying some specific areas for improvement. What's slowing you down? Presentations? Reloads? Multiple targets? Moving between shooting points?

Are you shooting too slowly for the sake of accuracy? Don't be afraid to shoot 90% A's instead of 95%. Hell, let it all hang out on occasion and be happy with 80% A's / 20% B's. You'll learn what you can get away with and what you can't. If you're straining for that 95%, perhaps you're spending too much time on the sights. The only way to get fast is to go fast.

Have you tried having someone video record your performance during matches? You might be surprised by what you see.



Want a good "go fast" school? http://rogers-shooting-school.com/


I think this is a good approach to trying to figure out where your biggest gaps are Alaska - This is made easier by video but also by watching video of the top shooters. Shooting a match with these guys can be where real learning comes in if you can watch them shoot the exact stages you shot. If you video them shooting the stage, even better.

It seems like you know how to fire an accurate shot on demand. Increasing your speed means teaching yourself how to see faster - You don't have to sacrifice accuracy to shoot faster but you do have to see only what's necessary for a given shot. Much of the overall time on stage comes from movement - leaving fast and shooting fast once you arrive to the next set up position. Add in faster transitions, no make ups on steel, and you're on your way to seeing a real difference.

I will say though that your stated goal is to make B class, moving up a from C.

This is actually pretty easy in that the way to accomplish this is to shoot classifiers better. Take a look at several classifiers and isolate the skills that are being tested.

Making B class through classifier performance and winning B class at a major match are two different things in my view but you have to start somewhere - and everyone does. I'm not suggesting setting up and practicing classifiers so much as just practicing the various shooting set ups that are common to classifier stages.

Beyond some of these thoughts an absolute that is necessary is productive dry fire training. If you're not spending time in dry fire almost everyday, then you're not wanting to move up bad enough, yet..:)

Alaskapopo
10-15-08, 03:01
I impressed myself on Sunday. I shot a 79% classifier. IT was Six CM-08-03. I shot it with a 7.58 hit factor and with the calculator on this site that puts me at a 79.1688%. That puts me really close to my B card.
I am starting to realize I do well on shorter stages with less thinking and movement and not as well on field courses.
pat

Bryan W
10-15-08, 18:09
we're not even done with this thread and you're already moving up....:D

Good shootin man!

Abraxas
10-15-08, 18:12
Tagging for interest

Robb Jensen
10-15-08, 19:32
I impressed myself on Sunday. I shot a 79% classifier. IT was Six CM-08-03. I shot it with a 7.58 hit factor and with the calculator on this site that puts me at a 79.1688%. That puts me really close to my B card.
I am starting to realize I do well on shorter stages with less thinking and movement and not as well on field courses.
pat

Congrats!

SingleStacker45
10-15-08, 19:48
I impressed myself on Sunday. I shot a 79% classifier. IT was Six CM-08-03. I shot it with a 7.58 hit factor and with the calculator on this site that puts me at a 79.1688%. That puts me really close to my B card.
I am starting to realize I do well on shorter stages with less thinking and movement and not as well on field courses.
pat

I've been having the same problem. I'm starting to shadow some better shooters at my local match to look at how they break down the stages. Pick a guy you know shoots well and try to squad with him.

Mule

Alaskapopo
10-15-08, 23:11
Thanks for the help guys. I plan on getting the courage up to go to a State level match down south this year to see how I fit in with the big boys. All they have up here is local matches.
Pat

Alaskapopo
11-02-08, 23:41
Great news. I shoot CM 99-08 today with a hit factor of 5.64. That if I did the math correctly will put me into B class with my other classifers all added together.
Pat

USSA-1
11-05-08, 14:23
Alaskapopo,

You've already gotton some very good advice, so I'll take more of a zen approach. Try to internalize these principals into your training techniques where possible.

Understand that speed is not about going fast, it's about saving time. Don't approach the sport with the mentality of pulling the trigger faster. That should be the very last thing you work on. Saving time is about streamlining everything you do. For example, if through better movement technique you can get to a shooting box two steps quicker than you normally would, you have saved about a second in stage time without ever having to shoot any faster than you already are. In everything you do, work to save time. Do not try to "go" faster.

Understanding that you can save time by streamlining your techniques, breakdown the techniques you use to the "N"th degree. It's not good enough to look at your drawstroke as a whole, break it down. Ask yourself what is the most streamlined way to establish my strong hand on my pisol? Where does my hand hang naturally? Where is my holster in relation to my naturally hanging hand? Can I move my holster position closer to where my hand naturally lies? Take this approach with all your techniques. Cut off the fat and excess movement wherever you can. The less you have to move, the more direct lines you take, the more streamlined your technique will become. The more streamlined your technique is, the more time you'll save.

Understanding that a streamlined technique will save time, realize that when it comes to any technique that Form will bring Speed. Speed will never bring Form. Perform your practice techniques at 80% Speed, but with 100% Form. Understand that any technique performed in a sterile "dry fire" practice session will always have a higher degree of perfection than the same technique attempted under the rigours and stresses of competition. If you accept a 90% value of correct "Form" for any given technique, then the best "real world" perfection you can expect from that technique is somewhere less than 90%. Demand 100% Form in your technique and the perfection you demand will bring you the speed you desire.

Well, that's a lot of "Understandings" to think about. Hopefully this will help refocus your approach to becoming "faster."

The other main point I'd make is that only 25% of this sport is physical. The other 75% is mental. Become a student of the "game." Breaking down stages is huge! If your stage plan is poor, it doesn't matter how fast you can shoot. You won't be able to shoot fast enough to compenste for a poor plan. Next time you shoot a match, ask the local M or GM how they shot a stage. Most likely they will not only tell you how they shot the stage, but more importantly, Why they shot it that way. Always be learning how to play the game better.

USSA-1

ErnieB
11-07-08, 02:15
Along the same lines as efficiency with gear and body movement is that of efficiency with ones vision. I'm getting older and I like training with younger guys 'cuz it keeps me on my toes. One of the things that I try to get across to new shooters that are trying to develop speed is to be acutely aware of what they are doing with their vision while trying to make a shot. Identifying what you need to see to make a particular shot is crucial. I once heard a Benny Cooley quote that went something along the lines of the fact that he is not necessarily faster than anybody else he just gets on the trigger sooner. He is able to do this because he understands the mechanical, as in body mechanics, of what is needed to make a given shot as well as the visual discipline to do so as well. Before the buzzer you should be conscious of what you need to do to get your eyes to the exact part of the target you wish to drive the sights to. You can't get on the trigger until you have visually found the spot on the target you wish to hit. Eyes first, then sights, then trigger.

It's late and I'm tired and I'll probably read this again in the morning and wish I was bit clearer but hopefully you get my point. :D

Bryan W
11-07-08, 23:22
Alaskapopo,

You've already gotton some very good advice, so I'll take more of a zen approach. Try to internalize these principals into your training techniques where possible.

Understand that speed is not about going fast, it's about saving time. Don't approach the sport with the mentality of pulling the trigger faster. That should be the very last thing you work on. Saving time is about streamlining everything you do. For example, if through better movement technique you can get to a shooting box two steps quicker than you normally would, you have saved about a second in stage time without ever having to shoot any faster than you already are. In everything you do, work to save time. Do not try to "go" faster.

Understanding that you can save time by streamlining your techniques, breakdown the techniques you use to the "N"th degree. It's not good enough to look at your drawstroke as a whole, break it down. Ask yourself what is the most streamlined way to establish my strong hand on my pisol? Where does my hand hang naturally? Where is my holster in relation to my naturally hanging hand? Can I move my holster position closer to where my hand naturally lies? Take this approach with all your techniques. Cut off the fat and excess movement wherever you can. The less you have to move, the more direct lines you take, the more streamlined your technique will become. The more streamlined your technique is, the more time you'll save.

Understanding that a streamlined technique will save time, realize that when it comes to any technique that Form will bring Speed. Speed will never bring Form. Perform your practice techniques at 80% Speed, but with 100% Form. Understand that any technique performed in a sterile "dry fire" practice session will always have a higher degree of perfection than the same technique attempted under the rigours and stresses of competition. If you accept a 90% value of correct "Form" for any given technique, then the best "real world" perfection you can expect from that technique is somewhere less than 90%. Demand 100% Form in your technique and the perfection you demand will bring you the speed you desire.

Well, that's a lot of "Understandings" to think about. Hopefully this will help refocus your approach to becoming "faster."

The other main point I'd make is that only 25% of this sport is physical. The other 75% is mental. Become a student of the "game." Breaking down stages is huge! If your stage plan is poor, it doesn't matter how fast you can shoot. You won't be able to shoot fast enough to compenste for a poor plan. Next time you shoot a match, ask the local M or GM how they shot a stage. Most likely they will not only tell you how they shot the stage, but more importantly, Why they shot it that way. Always be learning how to play the game better.

USSA-1

excellent post and great points!

Alaskapopo
11-14-08, 03:04
Its official I got my B card in Limited 10. Now to work on getting my limited, Single Stack, Production and Revolver all up to that level.
Pat

USSA-1
11-14-08, 11:40
Congratulations on the B card!

A word of warning though. B class it the toughest class to move past. Keep working hard and you'll do it, but be patient. It can get discouraging at times.

Keep the faith and let us know when the A card arrives.

USSA-1

556
12-03-08, 22:58
Its official I got my B card in Limited 10. Now to work on getting my limited, Single Stack, Production and Revolver all up to that level.
Pat

When I was shooting, I waited till I made "M" before getting serious with other guns. Stick with one, you'll be more CONFIDENT in your shooting ability with the one, which allows you to concentrate on cutting dwell times in transitions, movement and gaming a stage.

Congrats on the "B"

Alaskapopo
12-10-08, 23:09
When I was shooting, I waited till I made "M" before getting serious with other guns. Stick with one, you'll be more CONFIDENT in your shooting ability with the one, which allows you to concentrate on cutting dwell times in transitions, movement and gaming a stage.

Congrats on the "B"

I use the same gun in limited and limited 10. I just down load the mags to shoot limited 10. On the classifiers it does not seem to matter as most I have shot are low round count.
Pat