View Full Version : Judge tells man to choose between 2A and grandson
Grand58742
07-20-17, 09:31
SIAP. But, damn. A judge saying this without ruling the so called law illegal? And stating outright they know they are violating his Constitutional Rights?
https://bearingarms.com/beth-b/2017/07/19/judge-marine-2a/
On Monday, the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) filed a lawsuit against Michigan’s Department of Health and Human Services (MDHHS) for impeding on foster and adoptive parents’ Second Amendment rights.
SAF filed the lawsuit on behalf of two couples: William and Jill Johnson and Brian and Naomi Mason.
The Johnsons were going to take custody of their grandson to keep him from going into foster care. When they went to pick up their grandson, William, a retired, disabled Marine with a Concealed Pistol License (CPL), was searched for a firearm. He was not carrying a firearm at the time. At that point, agency officials told the Johnsons that they would be required to provide all firearms’ serial numbers to the agency as part of a registry. When Johnson questioned agency workers, he was given a surprising response.
“If you want to care for your grandson you will have to give up some of your constitutional rights,” a MDHHS worker retorted.
When the Johnsons appeared before a Gogebic County Court judge, the judge reiterated the agency worker’s statement.
“We know we are violating numerous constitutional rights here, but if you do not comply, we will remove the boy from your home,” the judge said.
These are the people who need to be hung from the nearest tree when the time comes.
This seems to be the way it is with the left now. Who cares if its right or legal? We can just do whatever we want and nobody can or will do anything about it.
They should all be stripped of their titles and authority, and be barred from ever holding positions of authority, ever. This kind of shit makes my blood boil! :mad:
I suspect there's more to that story but if it's accurate, would seem a slam dunk win the case. I thought Michigan one of the more pro 2A states too.
SomeOtherGuy
07-20-17, 11:31
I suspect there's more to that story but if it's accurate, would seem a slam dunk win the case. I thought Michigan one of the more pro 2A states too.
This case is actually almost local to me. The area is mostly rural and small town, and on this sort of issue would be considered conservative (in broader politics it's a mix of rural Republicans and rural Democrats, meaning differing views on the economy and business but similar socially).
Michigan overall is a pretty good 2A state these days. It was pretty bad through the late 1990's but a range of good, persistent political activism has made huge changes for the better in the last 18 or so years. Not quite Idaho/Arizona on 2A issues but more like Indiana or the Dakotas.
That's Michigan overall. This case is in the extreme western UP, which is a little different, but again somewhat like the Dakotas - guns aren't a big issue because almost everyone has them and violent crime is very low. It's hard to estimate gun ownership rates but I would guess 80-90% of households in Ontonagon would have at least a hunting rifle or shotgun, with over 50% having collections of guns.
Due to this being local, I will say less of my opinion, but I will be very interested in the outcome of this case. The claims in the lawsuit are certainly troubling.
The way the appeal is worded it will get tossed. The registry in no way violates the 2A or his ability to defend himself. Unless I missed something they are asking for serial #'s and not to hand over the guns or forfeit his permit. Not agreeing with the FUBAR liberal activism though. It may violate state or federal laws on database of serial numbers but I doubt it. If FOID cards and other state based registries haven't been overturned this will stay as well.
If the judge doesn't mind violating his oath, which is what his quote implies, then the old guy shouldn't mind lying to him.
SomeOtherGuy
07-20-17, 13:25
The way the appeal is worded it will get tossed. The registry in no way violates the 2A or his ability to defend himself. Unless I missed something they are asking for serial #'s and not to hand over the guns or forfeit his permit. Not agreeing with the FUBAR liberal activism though. It may violate state or federal laws on database of serial numbers but I doubt it. If FOID cards and other state based registries haven't been overturned this will stay as well.
Did you read the actual complaint? Here's an important part of it, from page 2:
However, the policy of the MDHHS, by implementing requirements and restrictions that are actually functional bans on the bearing of firearms for self-defense, both in and out of the home, completely prohibits foster and adoptive parents, and those who would be foster or adoptive parents, from the possession and bearing of readily-available firearms for the purpose of self-defense. This violates Plaintiffs’ constitutional rights under the Second and Fourteenth Amendments.
4. Plaintiffs seek to establish that the recognition and incorporation of the Second Amendment, and the Fourteenth Amendment’s due process and equal protection clauses, renders the State’s ban on the possession and bearing of firearms by foster and adoptive parents, and would-be foster and adoptive parents, unconstitutional. As the Plaintiffs only seek to be treated the same as other law-abiding Michigan residents, the Second and Fourteenth Amendments render a ban such as that challenged in this action, impermissible.
The article could have been better but I don't think this case is primarily about stating the serial #s of guns owned. It is claiming that MDHHS policies infringe on 2A rights that are held and exercisable by everyone else not falling under their requirements. I think they are saying that MDHHS requires the foster/adoptive parents to agree to strict locked storage requirements that don't otherwise exist under state law, and that those requirements prevent someone from being able to defend themselves by carrying a handgun or having (at home) a readily available, unlocked firearm.
Did you read the actual complaint? Here's an important part of it, from page 2:
The article could have been better but I don't think this case is primarily about stating the serial #s of guns owned. It is claiming that MDHHS policies infringe on 2A rights that are held and exercisable by everyone else not falling under their requirements. I think they are saying that MDHHS requires the foster/adoptive parents to agree to strict locked storage requirements that don't otherwise exist under state law, and that those requirements prevent someone from being able to defend themselves by carrying a handgun or having (at home) a readily available, unlocked firearm.
Proper storage of fire arms with children in the house is obviously a must, but far more children die from meds etc people leave lying around, yet I suspect there's no state law that required adoptive parents to demonstrate how they lock up their meds. I could be wrong of course. Hell, Iron tablets alone kill more kids than accidents with firearms.
Did you read the actual complaint? Here's an important part of it, from page 2:
The article could have been better but I don't think this case is primarily about stating the serial #s of guns owned. It is claiming that MDHHS policies infringe on 2A rights that are held and exercisable by everyone else not falling under their requirements. I think they are saying that MDHHS requires the foster/adoptive parents to agree to strict locked storage requirements that don't otherwise exist under state law, and that those requirements prevent someone from being able to defend themselves by carrying a handgun or having (at home) a readily available, unlocked firearm.
Sorry. I read the article and not the full text of the complaint. Thanks for the clarification. Makes more sense now.
Hope the suit goes well and the judge is removed from office. If the quote in the article is a direct quote on the record he is knowingly violating his oath of office and should be immediately unemployed if not tossed in jail.
Proper storage of fire arms with children in the house is obviously a must, but far more children die from meds etc people leave lying around, yet I suspect there's no state law that required adoptive parents to demonstrate how they lock up their meds. I could be wrong of course. Hell, Iron tablets alone kill more kids than accidents with firearms.
We had our house inspected when we began foster care. Had a list of what to secure and how to IIRC. The home study for adoption was a little quicker since we'd already done foster care for several groups of kids and had been doing foster care for the girls we adopted, but they checked meds. I don't remember much fuss about guns beyond keep them secure, to be honest I don't recall if there were stipulations about taking foster kids shooting - we had a couple of boys that I thought would be with us until they were adults and I let them shoot BB guns in the garage under my supervision.
SomeOtherGuy
07-20-17, 15:40
I don't remember much fuss about guns beyond keep them secure, to be honest I don't recall if there were stipulations about taking foster kids shooting **
I think this is state-specific, unless there is a federal standard above the states that I don't know of. Michigan state government has a wide range of interest groups and fiefdoms. For example, the State Police are quite practical, reasonable and even somewhat helpful on firearms laws (accurate plain English summaries, no institutional hostility) and speed limits (based on traffic studies with MDOT, very sensible approach based on safety and average travel speeds). You look at the business-focused agencies and they are professional and responsive with friendly people, not petty bureaucrats. Lots of good things in some parts of state government.
But I have no dealings with MDHHS and, although this is speculation, it wouldn't surprise me if it's influenced by people with different values and goals.
These are the people who need to be hung from the nearest tree when the time comes.
I think the time has not come and gone.
These are the people who need to be hung from the nearest tree when the time comes.
This seems to be the way it is with the left now. Who cares if its right or legal? We can just do whatever we want and nobody can or will do anything about it.
Yep, imagine being told you have to choose between your right to vote or right to free speech and your grandson.
"Blow me" would be on the tip of my tongue but I know judges don't like that and it's for the kid after all, but jeez.....
A terrible position to be put in, but infuriating when essentially the statement "we don't care about your rights," is made when the rule is challenged.
Sounds like its time to sell the guns to a close friend or relative for a buck.....
Sounds like its time to sell the guns to a close friend or relative for a buck.....
When cooler heads prevail hopefully that is the kind of solution that is arrived at. But at the same time, I wouldn't mind if this guy decided to start a legal shit storm and cause some headaches for the judge who ruled.
SomeOtherGuy
07-21-17, 08:55
Sounds like its time to sell the guns to a close friend or relative for a buck.....
When cooler heads prevail hopefully that is the kind of solution that is arrived at. But at the same time, I wouldn't mind if this guy decided to start a legal shit storm and cause some headaches for the judge who ruled.
No, that's not a good solution. People should be able to live normally and exercise their basic rights without lying or being put in unreasonable positions. I would imagine that thousands of people just lie to avoid this issue, but the plaintiffs here are completely in the right to not lie and instead sue and push the enforcement of their rights.
diving dave
07-21-17, 10:10
My daughter has temporary custody of 2 foster kids. During the initial meeting they stated if you own firearms they must be locked up and not accessible to the kids. that was it. Of course this is Montana.
We are fast coming up on this: "Lex iniusta lex non est"--an unjust law is no law. Aquinas, Augustine, MLK's "Letter from Birmingham jail".
There's a BIG difference between legitimate law and willful abuse of power. We used to care about stuff like that.
There's a BIG difference between legitimate law and willful abuse of power. We used to care about stuff like that.
Some of us still care and have never stopped caring about stuff like this.
No doubt the kids are being used as pawns in this game of "control" and government abuse. "Let us trample your God given rights, or we'll make sure these innocent kids suffer…" If this is not tyranny and abuse, I don't know what is. This is absolutely appalling and unacceptable.
This would anger me. If no guns in the home would have been the deal we wouldn't have started doing foster care - we didn't do it for the money.
On the other hand, all that aside, some folks would say that I have a Constitutional Right to Bear Arms, I have no Constitutional Right to do foster-care.
No, that's not a good solution. People should be able to live normally and exercise their basic rights without lying or being put in unreasonable positions. I would imagine that thousands of people just lie to avoid this issue, but the plaintiffs here are completely in the right to not lie and instead sue and push the enforcement of their rights.
You are correct, they should. But at the same time I should be able to import a new machine gun from Germany for personal use. So things aren't as they should be.
On the other hand, all that aside, some folks would say that I have a Constitutional Right to Bear Arms, I have no Constitutional Right to do foster-care.
Great respect for being a foster parent and while you may not have a constitutional right to be a foster parent, the plaintiff's circumstances are somewhat different since the the child in question is their grandson.
Barring compelling evidence of problems, there is no reason to place a kid with strangers over placing them with family.
This is simply an abuse of power, Along those lines, are family court judges in MI appointed or elected ?
Great respect for being a foster parent and while you may not have a constitutional right to be a foster parent, the plaintiff's circumstances are somewhat different since the the child in question is their grandson.
Barring compelling evidence of problems, there is no reason to place a kid with strangers over placing them with family.
This is simply an abuse of power, Along those lines, are family court judges in MI appointed or elected ?
I agree this specific case, the state should not brake up a family because of the 2nd amendment. It shouldn't be a factor at all, but the state, as it's set up, controls adoption, but there should be different rules for families.
On a side note, it would be interesting to hear this judges opinion on "breaking up" families for crime, like illegal immigration.
No, that's not a good solution. People should be able to live normally and exercise their basic rights without lying or being put in unreasonable positions. I would imagine that thousands of people just lie to avoid this issue, but the plaintiffs here are completely in the right to not lie and instead sue and push the enforcement of their rights.
Maybe not the kind of solution that can celebrated on sundays or by blowing shit up on the 4th but thats not what is intended. Just a simple plan to work around their nonsense and return to normal down the road. Unless of course you wish to squander your funds and gun collection not to mention time spent with ones grandson son by being duped into fighting their nonsense. You might end up with none of these things but an uninteresting "I fought the law and the law won" story.
Smile and nod then go back to your business. Be sure to throughly instruct the grandson and make a competent shooter out of him, which is time and effort better spent in my opinion.
You gotta love an educated, common sense, well reasoned Liberal. Two or three of them acting in concert and the fun factor is almost unbearable.
I hope the judge's quote was an exaggeration and that he really didn't say that, but even then, he has to know what he is doing. I'm sure he enjoys it.
On a side note, it would be interesting to hear this judges opinion on "breaking up" families for crime, like illegal immigration.
Liberals thrive on double standards. It is a core aspect of their personality. So basically you are saying you want to be doubly pissed off with this judge.
To a Liberal the word "illegal" in illegal immigration is not synonymous with "against the law". To a Liberal it is simply an unfortunate word association that the uneducated use as a derogatory term. The word "illegal" in the context you mention means "freedom seeking".
So it's apples and oranges.
In the case of the freedom seeking immigrant you have a hard working individual that would be an asset to our society as they would be starting a business, teaching advanced sciences, and similar such things that lazy Americans simply are not good with.
Now the 2A case you have a child in need but to insure it's safety, the care will have to be overseen by the State. This care extends to any persons that provide services to said child. These 'extraneous individuals' will be placed under the watchful caring eye of the State to ensure the child's long term safety and ideally more long term Liberal indoctrination.
Liberalism 101 - 'We don't need no stinkin' rational thoughts'.
Eurodriver
07-23-17, 11:39
These are the people who need to be hung from the nearest tree when the time comes.
This seems to be the way it is with the left now. Who cares if its right or legal? We can just do whatever we want and nobody can or will do anything about it.
That time left us by a while ago hombre. No one on the right has the balls to do anything about this except sue, which will go nowhere. How many people were skeered of Trump because he wasn't a RINO cuck? Hell, some folks get so skeered when they see an opposing viewpoint on the internet that they add you to their ignore list. How would you ever expect people like that to hang someone from a tree? You think Nathan Hale or Thomas Paine were skeered cucks?
The right sits back and says, "Well...they dun better not push me too far cuz I'll shoot 'em dead where they stand!" while Antifa and BLM smash in faces, set businesses on fire, and block interstate travel. How many people on this forum alone have written you off as a freedom loving American just because you live in CA? All is lost and we're all Robert Redford right now.
But don't mind me...anyone not participating in the circle jerk must be a tool. :cool:
How many people were skeered of Trump because he wasn't a RINO cuck?
Not "were", 'are'.
Just look at the upcoming VA Governor race.
Entrenched Dem vs. RINO
Just absolutely unbelievable. It's like playing whack-a-mole. It's bad enough to continue to have to hammer the Liberals but the RINOs keep popping their heads just as often.
Dem candidate won his primary with 56% of the vote.
RINO won with 43.7%
How do you think that Statewide contest will turn out?
The only potentially saving grace is that Corey Stewart who came in at 42.5% on the R side is going to take on Tim Kaine in 2018 for the Senate. If he wins, it will be well worth the governorship loss again to a Dem.
Yet, if anything, Stewart has been emboldened by his razor-thin loss to Gillespie after starting the race as a heavy underdog. He pledged in his campaign announcement to be “vicious” and “ruthless” in his bid against against Kaine, mimicking the bombastic style that earned his political idol countless headlines on his way to the White House.
“I speak my mind, I’m no-holds-barred, and sometimes it gets me in trouble,” Stewart said. “But it worked for President Trump, and it’s going to work for me as well.”
Please let it be so...... Just to see a representative willing to fight.
ETA:
...and speaking of whack-a-mole.....
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/jeb-bush-calls-out-republicans-silent-on-trumps-russia-probe/ar-AAoBPoA?li=BBnb7Kz&OCID=ansmsnnews11
Why would a Liberal judge not think they can steal your rights?
Moose-Knuckle
07-27-17, 05:22
That time left us by a while ago hombre. No one on the right has the balls to do anything about this except sue, which will go nowhere. How many people were skeered of Trump because he wasn't a RINO cuck?
Who was scared of Trump?
I say no one as almost everyone underestimated him. I recall you went on for months that he was never going to win . . .
Hell, some folks get so skeered when they see an opposing viewpoint on the internet that they add you to their ignore list. How would you ever expect people like that to hang someone from a tree? You think Nathan Hale or Thomas Paine were skeered cucks?
That's funny, how many times now have you claimed that I was on your ignore list?
The right sits back and says, "Well...they dun better not push me too far cuz I'll shoot 'em dead where they stand!" while Antifa and BLM smash in faces, set businesses on fire, and block interstate travel.
Once again you are contradicting yourself. You've downplayed Antifa as nothing more than college kids with flags, fireworks, and masks but here you make them sound like an actual threat.
All is lost and we're all Robert Redford right now.
Great film, really shows his trade craft being the only person in the entire film.
I own it, it was that good.
That time left us by a while ago hombre. No one on the right has the balls to do anything about this except sue, which will go nowhere. How many people were skeered of Trump because he wasn't a RINO cuck? Hell, some folks get so skeered when they see an opposing viewpoint on the internet that they add you to their ignore list. How would you ever expect people like that to hang someone from a tree? You think Nathan Hale or Thomas Paine were skeered cucks?
The right sits back and says, "Well...they dun better not push me too far cuz I'll shoot 'em dead where they stand!" while Antifa and BLM smash in faces, set businesses on fire, and block interstate travel. How many people on this forum alone have written you off as a freedom loving American just because you live in CA? All is lost and we're all Robert Redford right now.
But don't mind me...anyone not participating in the circle jerk must be a tool. :cool:
I see a whole lotta' belly aching', but no solution offered. We agree the right is and has been a bunch of useless cucks for decades. The left keeps progressing. What are those of us that are being run over by this train supposed to do about it. I've voted in every election since I was old enough to do so, yet my rights get further trampled day by day.
No doubt things are looking bad, but what should we do about it?
Whiskey_Bravo
07-27-17, 15:15
That time left us by a while ago hombre. No one on the right has the balls to do anything about this except sue, which will go nowhere. How many people were skeered of Trump because he wasn't a RINO cuck? Hell, some folks get so skeered when they see an opposing viewpoint on the internet that they add you to their ignore list. How would you ever expect people like that to hang someone from a tree? You think Nathan Hale or Thomas Paine were skeered cucks?
The right sits back and says, "Well...they dun better not push me too far cuz I'll shoot 'em dead where they stand!" while Antifa and BLM smash in faces, set businesses on fire, and block interstate travel. How many people on this forum alone have written you off as a freedom loving American just because you live in CA? All is lost and we're all Robert Redford right now.
But don't mind me...anyone not participating in the circle jerk must be a tool. :cool:
Some guy once said....
Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
Seriously dude, you seem to be really angry lately(like as in more so than the norm).
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.