Drop free

[themonk]

Question to the group - Midway through 2017 is it acceptable to make lowers where Gen 3 pmags don't drop free?

[Mysteryman]

It's never ok to produce a lower so out of spec that mags don't drop free..

MM

[CrowCommand]

What is the lower in question? I'm having the same issue, but suspect it just needs broke in. Mine is an Anderson lower with @500 rounds down the tube.

[MegademiC]

Iirc some lowers don't drop free from lowers that are in spec. It's rare but I think there was a thread here about a bcm that did that some time ago.

[themonk]

The problem in the BCM thread was the over insertion tabs were causing the mags not to seat on a closed bolt.

[sig1473]

Many lowers adhere to the MilSpec dimensions of USGI mags(aluminum) not to MagPul mags. I would have more of an issue with USGI mags not dropping free but that's just me.

[themonk]

I get it but Gen 3 PMAGS are being issued now. So back to my original question is it acceptable in mid 2017 If you pay good money for a top tier lower for them not to drop free?

[Singlestack Wonder]

Of course with a curved 30 round magazine with rounds inside, pressure is applied to the back of the magwell creating friction. Although my mags drop free 99.9% of the time with my DD, BCM, and LMT lowers, I still pull them out by hand. Of course I don't play any silly gun games so the extra .5 second involved means nothing...

[markm]

It would not be an issue for me.

[WickedWillis]

Well, my Seekins billet lower absolutely hates Gen 3 Pmags and any magazines with over-insertion tabs. It's annoying because I have several mags with them. I could grind all my mags, but they work in my DD and my Tavor.

[Eurodriver]

No it is not.

I would not own a lower that failed to drop free PMAGs.

[Wake27]

No it is not.

I would not own a lower that failed to drop free PMAGs.

Agreed. I sold my first AR which was a factory gen II Noveske, due in part to PMAGs not dropping free. Fast forward a few years and I was pretty bummed when my new factory Noveske (gen I) still wouldn't drop free with anything but GI mags. Then Magpul released the gen M3s and all was right in the world.


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[Torquetard]

I have a lower that doesnt particularly take kindly to GEN 3's. It could be that batch though, I bought a bunch when my lgs was selling them out of the shipping boxes for like $8 a few years ago, which might explain something. I have some 20 round gen 3's that drop fine though.

99% of my gen 2's work fine though, which is odd because it seems that GEN 3's fix most ppls issues.

[Kain]

I am so going to open a can of worms here, but whatever.


I get it but Gen 3 PMAGS are being issued now. So back to my original question is it acceptable in mid 2017 If you pay good money for a top tier lower for them not to drop free?

In short, I am going to say it depends. Are we talking about every lower after the USMC adoption of Gen 3 pmags must instantly be drop free out of the box? In which case, I am going to say, yes, it is acceptable that Gen 3 mags don't since your timeframe is pretty unreasonable from a production stand point. Even a rolling change, can take time, not to mention the issue with product already produced, sitting on shelves, ect. In a year, that could be different. There is also the point, and please correct me if I am wrong, I was under the impression that the Gen 3 pmag was adopted solely by USMC, not the entire military across the board, at which point, what is actually mil spec? You got Army and your go Marines both can, and God knows branches do, spec things to different specs. So if you have one company building rifles for the Army(Yes, I know I am getting out there, but play along for a minute) and their spec doesn't need gen 3 pmags to drop free, while another company building rifles for USMC does, who is actually in spec and who is out? Also, do Black mags not dropping free not count since they aren't the "milspec pmags" due to color difference?(Yes, asinine but lets be honest, someone is going to call that one.)

To muddy the waters even more, I'll bring my personal experience into here and go I have lowers that for one reason or another will drop free gen 3 20rders, 40s, but not one run of 30s, but will drop free another run of 30s. Or which won't drop 20s free, but will drop 30s and 40s, another that will drop 40s free(FYI the 40s seem to drop free out of everything), and most of the 20s, and all but like 4 of my 30s. I have complete junk lowers that will drop everything free, I then have quality lowers, multiples, which one will drop things free without issue, the other doesn't. Some of the gen 3 pmags that I have that are from when they first came out are more prone to sticking than newer production mags as well which throws a real wrench in my system. What really causes head scratching is that of all my AR lowers, the Gen 3 pmags, 20 and 30 round mags, and a sole Brownells USGI mag are the only ones that ever failed to drop free what wasn't due to something exceeding wrong with the mag, and this can be debated on the Brownells mag. Gen 1 and 2 and MOE pmags, never an issue, OKAY, surefire, surefeed, C-products, Colt, Lancer, H&K steel, Cetme L mags(yes ****ing Cetme L mags) no name junk polymer Pmag knock offs, and others, never had an issue, or at least consistent issue, dropping free from any of the dozen or so lowers I've shoved them in, from DPMS, Stag, RRA, LWRC, Anderson, BCM, S&W, DD. Muddy the waters even more I have known some who wanted Gen 3 pmags that didn't drop free because they maintain that they need to retain every mag at all times so when the mags drop free they don't them.

Somewhere, I have the thought that somewhere along the line Magpul ran the gen 3s on the upper end of the milspec sizing. Maybe for function, maybe for durability, maybe for any number of other reasons. Factor in tighter tolerances for higher end guns or just the range of tolerances for lower end stuff, Anderson for example, and some drop free some don't. And one can argue that both Pmag and Lower are in spec and still not drop free because one is on the high end and one on the low. Does that make the product good or bad? Depends on your needs and preferences, also doesn't change the fact that sometimes mags hand up anyway, usually when you least want them too. Obviously drop free is nicer for most, but at the same time, if the issue is with a single mag type, I am personally hard pressed to deride the lower as being out of spec. This comes from an individual who has triple digit quantity of magpul mags by the way and use them, mostly Gen 2s as my primary mag.

Now, all of that said, should the standard magazine for the military become the Gen 3 Pmag, and the spec require that the magazine drop free... Maybe then it will become unacceptable for a lower not to drop free a Gen 3 pmag, assuming the magazine is in the proper spec after a given length of time allowing for the change over to go fully into effect. At which point we will then get to argue over the difference between commercial mag wells and mil spec mag wells and why some commercial lowers drop free the Gen 3 mags and some mil spec lowers don't and I will predict someone dregging up one of the old magpul dynamics videos and bring back the Costa flip as the solve all and shit will come full circle and then someone will decide to go back to the aluminum mags because retro, and think everyone kind of gets the point that there isn't a single end all be all solution here because I have not even gotten into the argument of what drop free entails, is it perfectly vertical, can it be canted up into workspace, does drop free require bolt to be locked back, or bolt forward(Have have this one pop up a few times over the years with Gen 3s, with one guy claiming the mag does drop free, while another claims it won't the one claiming it will has the bolt closed), is it considered drop free if the mag falls after a slight shake, can the mag be worn into dropping free, can the mag be easily modified to being drop free, if mod is required how long should it take to mod before becoming unacceptable and does said mod need to not affect use with other rifles, or can it affect other rifles? Some I know are reaching, but some people will likely make some of those arguments, whether you, I or anyone else agree with them or not. Like I said, muddy waters with no definite answer. Also, I don't know of any companies building their lowers around Magpul's Gen 3 spec, though I could very well be wrong there as well.

Don't want this turning into 10 page paper, so I'll leave off here. But, like I said, in short, it really kind of depends, and while I am pointing some stuff out, I am going to be the first to say i am not up on everything going on with the New Gen 3 Pmags and the mil. If asking personal preference, though, yes, I do prefer my mags to drop free, but also understand that sometimes they won't. Train accordingly.

[noonesshowmonkey]

No it is not.

I would not own a lower that failed to drop free PMAGs.

Same. An overly tightened magazine release can sometimes cause this behavior, but if it turns out that it is the lower, I send the lower back in. If my unit / agency armorer handed me a rifle that wouldn't drop free, and loosening the magazine release wouldn't clear up the issue, I'd hand it back to them for a re-issue.

[Iraqgunz]

"Being issued". But unless it's being issued to you and it affects your issued weapon, I am not sure one can complain. I don't think we are going to see manufacturers across the board altering their specs just yet.


I get it but Gen 3 PMAGS are being issued now. So back to my original question is it acceptable in mid 2017 If you pay good money for a top tier lower for them not to drop free?

[sig1473]

I just confirmed with my KAC SR15 Mod 1 that the lower won't drop 5x Gen3 PMags free. Am I going to get rid of it now? I think not.

[BlueCorn]

I never worried about the whole drop free thing. I don't drop my mags, I train to retain. The way I change mags I'm pulling the mag out and replacing it with a fresh one already in the same hand.

[hotrodder636]

Drop free is not something I specifically look for in an AR. Pistols yes. AR, no.

[mack7.62]

My experience is similar to Kain's, not all PMAG's are going to drop free in all lowers, I have even had one Center brown follower NIW mag that would not drop free in several lowers. My testing is empty, vertical, with bolt locked back. It is the nature of the beast, a magazine is an inexpensive part made in the millions and lowers have their own tolerance specs that will vary over a production run. PMAG packaging has a lot number on back side lower left such as M00-16G06A which I assume identifies the production run and mould that produced that mag. I have found that generally if one mag from that lot will drop free in a lower then all will and visa versa, if a mag will not drop free then none of the mags from the same lot will. If drop free is important to you I feel the thing to do if possible is acquire same lot number mags, verify they drop free and mark them somehow.

[vicious_cb]

Train to rip your mags out regardless. A drop free mag well is no longer drop free after spending a few hours in some wind and and sand.

[renov8]

I wouldn't know about Pmags...don't use them. Have been using the C-products and Lancer mags for awhile and have no issues out of any of my rifles...All Colts. Lancers seat real well especially with a full house.

I don't know that it would be an issue for me unless I was in some conflict ridden area and my life depended on it...