View Full Version : SEAL's to admit women to BUDs
First the Rangers, now the SEAL's. Seams the SEAL aspect has not been getting the attention the Rangers did. Considering the drop out rate of BUDs by extremely competitive men in top condition that don't make it (approx 80%), the chances of a woman making it without any changes in standards, is damn close to zero in my non mil civi estimation. There's ongoing controversy as to whether the two ladies that made it through Ranger school did so without any assistance their male counterparts didn't receive:
First woman enlists to become a Navy SEAL
A woman will train with other potential officers this summer in hopes of becoming the first female Navy SEAL.
The candidate, a midshipman, and another woman have enlisted as the first female candidates seeking to join the Navy's special operations teams.
The latter is training for the Special Warfare Combatant-Craft Crewman program, or SWCC.
These women have already made history, but they still face a long road ahead of training and tests before they officially make the cut.
Women weren't allowed to serve in combat roles, including special operation forces such as the SEALs and SWCC, until January 2016. But there were no female applicants in the 18 months since that historic change until now.
Cont:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/21/us/first-female-navy-candidates-seal-trnd/index.html?sr=twCNN072117first-female-navy-candidates-seal-trnd0453PMVODtop
As long as the times, reps, and tests are all the exact same, and not modified for gender, let them all try.
Eurodriver
07-24-17, 09:55
As long as the times, reps, and tests are all the exact same, and not modified for gender, let them all try.
But don't you get it? The standards were developed by men who had inherent biases! (Seriously - they say that)
As if bullets or explosions care what inherent biases your standard process was set by.
As long as the times, reps, and tests are all the exact same, and not modified for gender, let them all try.
I'm still not convinced that's case that happened with the Rangers. Why don't we start with sports at least? If there was ever a good place to try some social experimentation, allow women into the NFL combines and see if a single one survives. Have games between M/F pro sports teams in football, soccer, basketball. At least they are not getting anyone killed in the process. I believe on average 2-3 guys per year die in BUDs, but have to check that one. What happens when some woman dies at BUDs? People will freak the fu^$ out and demand a lowering of standards will follow.
It can't be done with the times the same, the times, reps, and situations were designed with elite men in mind. Elite men, in any athletic pursuit, dwarf elite women. Sure, elite women sometimes can dwarf above average men, but that's not really what is running through BUD/S -- or is it?
I suppose an elite woman could meet the male standard, but I doubt it -- at least not while passing an HGH/Hormone drug screen.
SomeOtherGuy
07-24-17, 10:38
Considering the drop out rate of BUDs by extremely competitive men in top condition that don't make it (approx 80%), the chances of a woman making it without any changes in standards, is damn close to zero in my non mil civi estimation.
Yes
As long as the times, reps, and tests are all the exact same, and not modified for gender, let them all try.
Sure, with all those assumptions. Some of us just wonder if it will all be exactly the same.
Even more un-PC question: assuming there is some incredibly capable woman who can make it through BUDs at the unchanged standards, how will her body hold up to years of the physical challenges SEALs undergo? All I read is that women's bodies, due to differences in bone density and muscle mass, suffer far more chronic injury from infantry tasks than men's bodies due. In the civilian world I've never heard of a women having a long career in something requiring lots of strength and some physical abuse, like firefighting or bricklaying. Not even someone who had such a career and is physically crippled, just literally have not heard of a woman having a long career in something like that, or even something not as hard on your body, like carpentry. Is it smart to put someone in a position where they are guaranteed to suffer permanent injury to a greater degree than a man would?
And SWCC has a boat driver switching genders, going all-trans. I understand that sailors in his particular unit are none too thrilled.
Two women officers were slated to attend the Army's Special Forces Q-Course this past Spring. Wonder if they made it, or was it quietly swept under the rug?
Coal Dragger
07-24-17, 14:28
If they made it through the Q-Course it would have been in the news. Seeing as how you haven't heard anything, I think you have your answer.
As long as the times, reps, and tests are all the exact same, and not modified for gender, let them all try.
Kind of how I feel about it.
The requirements should never be lowered. But if a woman can hack it then I say let them do it. Yeah this means that for every 100 guys there may be 1 woman, Oh well. Equality means everyone gets a chance. Not that everyone gets the same result.
Kind of how I feel about it.
The requirements should never be lowered. But if a woman can hack it then I say let them do it. Yeah this means that for every 100 guys there may be 1 woman, Oh well. Equality means everyone gets a chance. Not that everyone gets the same result.
This right here^^
100% agree
I feel much safer now. :)
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-24-17, 15:36
There has to be a good joke about seals balancing balls on their nose in all of this.
There has to be a good joke about seals balancing balls on their nose in all of this.
You sir win the internet for the day.
As long as the times, reps, and tests are all the exact same, and not modified for gender, let them all try.
That's where I'm at. If Bruce Jenner wants to join the Navy and try out for BUDS then sure, assuming he passes the psych eval. Anyone who wants to join our military should be extended a liberal benefit of the doubt. Anyone who further wants to engage in combat in defense of this nation should be given every reasonable opportunity to do so. Anyone who can satisfactorily do that and wants to attempt to join an elite division should be allowed to try.
Those with a sincere desire have better motivations than a lot of others. But standards should be maintained. If we do end up with legit female SEALS I wouldn't want them killed because they had to deploy with Richard Simmons anymore than I would want any other member of the military killed because they had to deploy with a GI Jane wannabe.
And if you insist on separate standards, then you need to establish segregated groups that reflect those standards like "All Female" teams.
Israel is either ahead or behind of the USA in allowing women into infantry units. It has been a joke and a failure with steps located in front of walls on the obstacle course.
We get suckered into having to accept in principle that women as long as they meet standards should be allowed to try. The women then fail.
Then standards are lowered or a double standard is set up.
I favor women in some roles in the covert far on terrorism. But not for special ops on a battlefield or in the infantry.
They just can't hack it long term.
But they got me beat all to hell, when it comes to having a baby. Having to go through delivering a baby is beyond my ability for a lot of reasons. But since I don't feel the need to push an agenda, I am not crying about how unfair G-D made it.
Dist. Expert 26
07-24-17, 16:27
Civilians always seem to miss the point that assessment and selection for whichever organization is still nowhere near as difficult as real world operations. Sure, swimming in 50° water sucks. Not sleeping sucks. Being run into the ground sucks.
Add in the factor of 75+ lbs of equipment and zero option for failure and it doesn't just suck anymore. It's real. You die and your team dies.
If a woman manages to pass, it will be by the bare minimum standard. If that's what we want at the very tip of the spear, so be it. Otherwise the Commander in Chief and SECDEF need to stop the stupidity.
You have to carefully pay attention to how the standards may be changed to accommodate a political desire. If it happens it usually tries to avoid the stigma of two sets of different standards. Instead it is spun this way: "We are looking at what the requirements are for XXX group/team. We have questioned whether, in today's environment, is it really necessary to be able to hump/swim XXX distance? We have determined that it isn't". Then the standards don't get "lowered" per se, they are merely changed to reflect "modern military requirements" or some other bullshit.
The first I heard of this take on things was a couple of years ago when it was being mulled over how would women make it through SFAS. I recall reading that some high-ranking shithead said something to the effect of "We are reviewing the requirements of the Q-Course and one of those items is the necessity to roadmarch 20+ miles [the final obstacle to overcome during Selection] with such a heavy load in today's combat environment".
I politely disagree with the poster above me in this sense: I believe that the requirements involved in the entry training of our tip-of-the-spear types is often pushed beyond what will ever actually be required on the battlefield. This is to ensure that if you can make it through this you will succeed at whatever you will encounter 90% of the time in real-world missions.
And what happens when one of them becomes a POW?
And what happens when one of them becomes a POW?
That doesn't bother me any more than if it was a male SOF member. You wanna run with the big dogs.......
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-24-17, 19:06
And what happens when one of them becomes a POW?
What was the movie where the Sargent says "You think they are only going to rape the women?".
SeriousStudent
07-24-17, 19:07
And what happens when one of them becomes a POW?
As former service members, you and I both hope that our country would move heaven and earth to bring them back home. Just as we should for any American or ally captured by the enemy.
But we have seen what has happened to female service members captured over the last 70 years. :(
That doesn't bother me any more than if it was a male SOF member. You wanna run with the big dogs.......
I think I should have been more blunt... I was trying to make an analogy, albeit a poor one, relating to men, women, and their differences.
I do not believe that any woman will ever fit in to a SEAL team, or be considered an equal, ever. They are a distraction and will end up costing lives.
As former service members, you and I both hope that our country would move heaven and earth to bring them back home. Just as we should for any American or ally captured by the enemy.
But we have seen what has happened to female service members captured over the last 70 years. :(
Honestly, I don't think there would be much to bring home in terms of emotional and mental capacity. Maybe a used, beaten, bloody, lifeless shell.
There's just some shit women shouldn't do.
P.S. I hope all's well down in TX and you and the family are doing great. Been a busy, busy year and I'm not online very much anymore.
SeriousStudent
07-24-17, 21:37
Honestly, I don't think there would be much to bring home in terms of emotional and mental capacity. Maybe a used, beaten, bloody, lifeless shell.
There's just some shit women shouldn't do.
P.S. I hope all's well down in TX and you and the family are doing great. Been a busy, busy year and I'm not online very much anymore.
Understood, and I agree.
Thanks for the kind wishes, and I hope everything is going well up there with you and yours!
And what happens when one of them becomes a POW?
Remember Jessica Lynch? It will be worse than that if/when ISIS or whomever we are fighting get their hands on a female SOF member.
If you think men that are captured by arabs aren't raped, then you don't live in the Middle East.
Wait, I get it! The applicants are men in peak physical condition, excellent marksmen, and already have experience in the military, however, they feel their actual gender are as women.
Honestly, I don't think there would be much to bring home in terms of emotional and mental capacity. Maybe a used, beaten, bloody, lifeless shell.
Honestly, I've known some guys who came home like that. They were never the person I knew when they left, I never saw that person again. Not saying I'd wish that on women, but if they want true equality well that's equality.
Personally I wouldn't wish it on anyone I cared about, respected or just recognized as an actual human being. Hell I even know a few guys who have done some bad shit and I wouldn't wish that on them.
Honestly I don't think any of this will amount to anything of consequence. With Oprah making more money than just about every person I know regardless of race, gender or whatever it's hard to keep talking about the glass ceiling or true oppression.
So to the extremes go the frontiers of the fight for equality and honestly if they want it, they can have it if it were up to me. Make the grade and go with god and my best wishes for good hunting and a safe return.
But that won't happen either as this is really just about a showpiece and "wouldn't it be cool if GI Jane actually happened!!!!." So here we are. And if some tough bird actually manages to graduate and put a trident on her uniform you can almost be certain she will never see actual combat. Worst thing in the world would be for our brand new "Seal Jane" to get zapped in combat. Then people have to answer the question "Who thought this was a good idea?"
Instead Seal Jane will quickly become head of strategic planning somewhere until she's served enough time to put "Seal" status on her resume without everyone laughing and then I'm sure she will work for whatever Democrat is elected President next time. After all if women ran everything, there wouldn't be wars anymore, or so my 4th grade teacher told me.
^^^^^If women ran everything, the world would be a smoking wasteland...has been my experience with most of them.
As for BUD/s standards...I thought those types of things, SFAS included, were DESIGNED to make people QUIT? I don't understand why that couldn't be articulated so that a majority of people understand?
But my exposure to such things is pretty much limited to docu's on the AHC channel. (Except the women part, lol).
Civilians always seem to miss the point that assessment and selection for whichever organization is still nowhere near as difficult as real world operations. Sure, swimming in 50° water sucks. Not sleeping sucks. Being run into the ground sucks.
Add in the factor of 75+ lbs of equipment and zero option for failure and it doesn't just suck anymore. It's real. You die and your team dies.
If a woman manages to pass, it will be by the bare minimum standard. If that's what we want at the very tip of the spear, so be it. Otherwise the Commander in Chief and SECDEF need to stop the stupidity.
This has been my point all along. Just because they can (apply and possibly pass), doesn't mean they should. The training and deployment cycle is far harder than any school I have ever been to.
I will wager good money that if any female passes the gate (BUDS, the Q), they will have a much higher attrition (in the deployment/training cycle) because of injury, ultimately be non-deployable.
Dist. Expert 26
07-25-17, 11:33
This has been my point all along. Just because they can (apply and possibly pass), doesn't mean they should. The training and deployment cycle is far harder than any school I have ever been to.
I will wager good money that if any female passes the gate (BUDS, the Q), they will have a much higher attrition (in the deployment/training cycle) because of injury, ultimately be non-deployable.
Exactly.
Furthermore, people don't seem to understand that BUDs is just the first step in a very long process of becoming a SEAL and earning the Trident. But of course understanding that would require picking up a book so I guess that's out.
is it really necessary to be able to hump/swim XXX distance? We have determined that it isn't". Then the standards don't get "lowered" per se, they are merely changed to reflect "modern military requirements" or some other bullshit.
Then they are easier for everyone. Many who couldn't pass before, can now pass. Unit is no longer elite. Unit is above average and elite mixed in....I hope the above average are trying to up their game in the mean time.
My son in law is an Israeli SEAL, we talked about this.
His response was, a lot can happen on an open ocean swim.
But he vowed, no women will ever be an Israeli SEAL'.
My son in law is an Israeli SEAL, we talked about this.
His response was, a lot can happen on an open ocean swim.
But he vowed, no women will ever be an Israeli SEAL'.
Unless they lower the standards and or find some other way to "assist" them in passing BUD's and what follows, neither will there ever be a female USN SEAL. I have no doubts there's a variety places and MOS women can be be considerable value to the mil, being the weakest link in our tip O the spear units is not one of them.
If you think men that are captured by arabs aren't raped, then you don't live in the Middle East.
Read a book by some SAS bloke would was in A Stan and he went into some detail on that. He was there during the Russian invasion.
Then they are easier for everyone. Many who couldn't pass before, can now pass. Unit is no longer elite. Unit is above average and elite mixed in....I hope the above average are trying to up their game in the mean time.
Am I nuts, or why don't we simply make the rec of M/F that go through basic the same and see what happens. If the women can't even survive basic doing exactly what the men do, WTF does anyone expect them to get through far more elite level training? They raised the standards a tad in the Marines and the failure rate was terrible:
"Six months after the Pentagon ordered all combat jobs open to women, seven female Marines are either serving in those posts or waiting to serve, and 167 are performing noncombat duties in front-line units, according to new data obtained by The Associated Press.
The numbers underscore the difficulty of integrating women into the demanding jobs, and reflect the small number of women who want to be combat Marines and can pass the new tough physical standards required to qualify. So far this year those standards have weeded
out most female hopefuls and have also disqualified some men.
Six out of seven female recruits — and 40 out of about 1,500 male recruits — failed to pass the new regimen of pull-ups, ammunition-can lifts, a 3-mile run and combat maneuvers required to move on in training for combat jobs, according to the data.
Failing the tests, taken about 45 days into basic training, forces recruits into less physically demanding Marine jobs.
The high failure rate for women recruits, however, raises questions about how well integration can work, including in Marine infantry units where troops routinely slog for miles carrying packs weighed down with artillery shells and ammunition, and at any moment must be able to scale walls, dig in and fight in close combat."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/both-men-and-women-fail-new-marine-corps-fitness-standards/
So lets allow them to waste space and resources and time in BUD's ?!
Moose-Knuckle
07-27-17, 05:37
Remember Jessica Lynch?
That was going to be my response to brother Irish, iirc she had massive internal injuries and is permanently disabled from repeated sexual assaults and torture.
If you think men that are captured by arabs aren't raped, then you don't live in the Middle East.
Amazing is it not that people still don't know who we're dealing with after all these centuries.
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