View Full Version : Sig Quality Control
welshrabbit
10-04-08, 07:50
I have been thinking about purchasing a Sig P229 and a P232, but I have heard on this forum that maybe sometime around 2005 the factory began producing pistols with less attention to quality control. A new Sig pistol is not cheap but they produce the only metal TDA pistol with ergonomics that I like-and to me metal is important.
So has quality gone down for the company or is that just Internet rumor mongering? I was considering another Sig product this year but it seemed like they were a little sleazy offering a 556 with the el cheapo accessories.
Thank you,
Shannon Wall
PS Would you trust a used, not CPO, .40 229 w/o rail going for 595? If you did what would you replace on it spring or part wise?
I have not noticed any QC problems with my 229 SAS, just the opposite in fact it is a wonderfully accurate and reliable piece that has handled everything I've thrown at it without a hickup.
.357sigger
10-04-08, 15:40
I love my 229's both came in .40. I have a Homeland Security edition with a DAK trigger and a regular 229R DA/SA one as well that I swapped to .357 sig. I plan on getting another as well if I can find the exact one that I want. I have only had minor issues with the DA/SA...the take down lever broke...it would still fire and function fine you just couldnt break it down to clean. I had it back and fixed in a week. I want to get a 229R in stainless with out that god awful beaver tail if they would ever make one. I also just purchased a 239 SAS with an SRT trigger.
.357sigger
10-04-08, 15:47
I have been thinking about purchasing a Sig P229 and a P232, but I have heard on this forum that maybe sometime around 2005 the factory began producing pistols with less attention to quality control. A new Sig pistol is not cheap but they produce the only metal TDA pistol with ergonomics that I like-and to me metal is important.
So has quality gone down for the company or is that just Internet rumor mongering? I was considering another Sig product this year but it seemed like they were a little sleazy offering a 556 with the el cheapo accessories.
Thank you,
Shannon Wall
PS Would you trust a used, not CPO, .40 229 w/o rail going for 595? If you did what would you replace on it spring or part wise?
I would go for a CPO if I was going to get a used one, most of them are LEO trades with low round count. Plus the year warranty... I guess it would depend on the condition of the gun you are looking at. If its practically new it would be a good deal.
Did they fix the issue with CPO's that had finish flaking issues? It was a big deal not long ago. I think Sig quality control has gone down since they started making all kinds of shiny pistols. Much greater variation without increase or improvements in QC = poor quality. Fit and finish is not what it was. Larry Vickers has been quoted as saying their QC is in the toilet and lots of other people would agree. I know several dealers who have told me they have had to send quite a few back out of the box and they are not happy about it. It also seems like a lot of people have left Sig in the last few years. finally there are plenty of newer pistols with greater innovation than the shiny P226's etc Sig is selling. The new HK's, Smith M&P's etc. Yeah Sig has the P250 but they can't give those away.
There was a very small chip in the finish on the beavertail of my 226 elite, nothing I really cared about. The pistol itself has been flawless.
You cannot assess a line's QC based off of one purchase.
Suppose a company makes widgets. In 2002, the company produced 50,000 widgets and 200 were returned as defective; that's a 0.4% failure rate.
In 2008, the company is producing 75,000 widgets and gets 1,500 of them returned as defective; that's a 2% failure rate. Five times as many problems is a significant increase. Yet forty-nine out of fifty purchasers have working widgets. Those 49 will tell you they're great. Nonetheless, a substantial drop in QC is evident.
We also haven't measured the durability of the widgets to compare 2002 widgets to 2008 widgets, or their reliability, or their other widget-related suitability.
There is absolutely no question that QC at SIG-Sauer in New Hampshire is less than it was five years ago. Anyone who believes otherwise hasn't been paying attention.
The company has also been outsourcing many parts to companies in the U.S., Asia, the Middle East, etc. ... parts which once came from Sauer in Germany. There have been substantial problems as new vendors are brought online to make a new (to the vendor) part. For example, there are whole production runs of SIG DAK pistols that were shipped with right grip panels modified (by hand) to allow proper clearance for out-of-spec DAK trigger bars. That works fine unless the end user (many of whom are LE agencies) needs or wants to put a new grip on the gun.
Is SIG substantially worse than its competitors in this regard? Overall, I'd say no. Where SIG has lost out, though, is demanding Cadillac prices for Pontiac quality and performance.
Some folks have mentioned the shiny bling guns, etc., that come out of Exeter now. It's a truism in the firearms industry that when a manufacturer starts making a lot of different variants of the same gun, the product line has got old and isn't selling as well. By creating "new & improved" finishes, actions, etc. you breathe life into the line for a short period while (hopefully) developing a new line. The fact that there is already a camo version of the P250 is a sign of how well the P250 is selling ...
The story goes a V.P. from Kimber went to work for Sig and told them how much money can be made using MIM injected parts. That's when you started see this expansion of their line with differant colors and models.
I also started hearing about parts such as Hammers breaking for no reason.
I'm at the point in my life where I'd rather look for a older used gun in good shape, than buy a new one. Too much money, Too little quality.
Parabellum9x19mm
10-05-08, 14:47
The story goes a V.P. from Kimber went to work for Sig and told them how much money can be made using MIM injected parts. That's when you started see this expansion of their line with differant colors and models.
Since when does SIG use MIM? :rolleyes: i have quite a few "differant" SIGs....new ones and old ones and AFIK, none of them have MIM parts.
even if they did, MIM gets a bad rap. my Geiselle Automatics trigger is made using MIM and i've never heard anyone complain about a GA trigger. yeah, a MIM ejector on a 1911 isn't a good idea, but MIM isn't always a bad thing
docsprague
10-05-08, 21:35
I currently have three newer sigs (Two with us slides and german frames and one all US gun) and one old P228. All of mine run 100%. That said my German frame P226R fits lights better than my US frame P226R. The US frame P226R is really hard to get lights on and off. Makes me wonder if the frame is out of spec.
John_Wayne777
10-05-08, 23:07
I have been thinking about purchasing a Sig P229 and a P232, but I have heard on this forum that maybe sometime around 2005 the factory began producing pistols with less attention to quality control. A new Sig pistol is not cheap but they produce the only metal TDA pistol with ergonomics that I like-and to me metal is important.
So has quality gone down for the company or is that just Internet rumor mongering? I was considering another Sig product this year but it seemed like they were a little sleazy offering a 556 with the el cheapo accessories.
Thank you,
Shannon Wall
PS Would you trust a used, not CPO, .40 229 w/o rail going for 595? If you did what would you replace on it spring or part wise?
In brief:
1. Yes, Sig's QC isn't what it once was. They hired the leadership crew from Kimber, if that tells you anything.
2. That being said, the P229 is still a pretty damn good gun and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I found a decent price on one. Will I pay the 750 bucks for a Sig I was considering when looking at the first P229s? Absolutely not. If I could find a used one in good shape for 450 or 500, however....
3. My personal opinion (worth about what you paid for it) is that if you stick to what the company has always done well, you're likely to have a good result. A basic plane-jane P229 is probably going to be just fine. A P250 or a GSR? Well....I'd skip 'em.
If I were looking into purchasing a current production P series SIG, the main thing I'd look into and possibly replace, would be the take down lever. Its interesting that SIG is almost moving in the opposite direction of S&W with their M&P. As a relatively new product the M&P is being improved and perfected as teething issues crop up, whereas with SIG, they are nickel-diming the production process and having to backtrack and fix new issues as they arise.
SIG does use and has used MIM parts for many years. The hammers on Classic (P22x) guns have been MIM'd for a long time. Until recently, I've seen very few problems with SIG hammers.
MIM is not evil.
Well, all I can say is that I have 2 Sig Sauers , a Sig Pro 2022 9mm and a Sig Elite 229 Stainless steel , also 9mm . The Elite is beautiful, a chunk of stainlees steel ,SRT trigger , (very heavy, around 42 ounzes) and a fantastic gun in all concepts. The Sig Pro 2022 is my carry gun and I like it very, very much ... very light , very accurate , 100% reliable, and a placer to shoot. This 2 guns are perfect in quality finish and functioning !!! There is no question that the Sigs are hi-end guns in everything ...!!! in my case, specially the 229 Elite, it is a beautifully finish gun , from the state of the art rosewood grips to the NP3 finish , sights, slide, etc etc etc. In my humble opinion, I think that Sigs are at the top of the line , very top , in the gun scale !!! Just my two pennies , and BTW , there are no MIM parts in my Sigs.
On the various Internet boards I've read threads bemoaning poor QC in SIG, Colt, S&W, and most other major brands.
Just from my prespective, it seems that Glock and Beretta have the fewest complaints in terms of actual build quality, with Beretta perhaps having a slight edge. I don't know if that says anything about Beretta's QC in general or maybe just that Berettas aren't as widely used as other brands.
varoadking
10-09-08, 20:46
Well, all I can say is that I have 2 Sig Sauers , a Sig Pro 2022 9mm and a Sig Elite 229 Stainless steel , also 9mm . The Elite is beautiful, a chunk of stainlees steel ,SRT trigger , (very heavy, around 42 ounzes) and a fantastic gun in all concepts. The Sig Pro 2022 is my carry gun and I like it very, very much ... very light , very accurate , 100% reliable, and a placer to shoot. This 2 guns are perfect in quality finish and functioning !!! There is no question that the Sigs are hi-end guns in everything ...!!! in my case, specially the 229 Elite, it is a beautifully finish gun , from the state of the art rosewood grips to the NP3 finish , sights, slide, etc etc etc. In my humble opinion, I think that Sigs are at the top of the line , very top , in the gun scale !!! Just my two pennies , and BTW , there are no MIM parts in my Sigs.
The Stainless Elite finish is simply stainless steel in the white, not NP3...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/varoadking/014.jpg
Personally, I think the factory rosewood grips are pretty lame, but to each their own...
I am afraid you are wrong... I do also own a stainless steel Dan Wesson .45 and that is a stainless steel finish !!! My 229 Elite ST , being a Stainless steel pistol, slide and frame, has a finish with some Teflon imbeded on it, that effectively makes it very easy to clean it , and the color of this finish is some light grey !!! The only treatment that I know that does that is NP3 . BTW, you can find out very easily that these Sigs have a treatment finish by looking closely at the light scratch that the Decocker lever makes in the finish of almost every Sig Suer along the surface of the pistol ... underneath that light scratch you can see the stainless steel...!!! And just in case you would ask, my pistol is a brand new gun , no mods , no nothing added , bought 4 months ago !!! Here is a pic of each, and as you can see clearly, there is a big difference in the finish ...http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh125/josey88/004.jpghttp://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh125/josey88/009.jpg About the Elite rosewood grips , I like them very much ... I find them very atractive and, if I may say so, elegant , but , that is just me ...!!!!
I've completely lost interest in Sig after many years of being a big fan. They do not deserve my $$$ due to poor QC, lack of innovation, and increasingly poor customer service. It takes a long time to build up a reputation but a very short time to lose it. The P250 was supposed to be their big splash but dealers can't give them away. I suppose that explains why the other caliber P250's have not showed up yet.
I will never understand what possessed them to do that. I'm not a Kimber hater by any means but Kimber does not have the premium imprint that Sig had so why would you hire from the second string?
In brief:
1. Yes, Sig's QC isn't what it once was. They hired the leadership crew from Kimber, if that tells you anything..
varoadking
10-11-08, 08:43
I am afraid you are wrong...
No sir, I am not...
...and while I didn't need the SiG website to tell me that it is natural stainless steel...perhaps you do.
http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=8&productid=198
"The P229 Elite Stainless features a stainless steel slide and frame in a natural stainless finish."
The spec's below are for your P229R Stainless Elite. I own one of them as well as the P220R Carry Stainless Elite.
Item Number E29R-9-SSE (9mm) E29R-40-SSE (.40S&W)
Caliber 9mm, .40 S&W
Trigger Pull DA/SA 10.0 lbs/ 4.5 lbs
Trigger Feature SRT™ - Short Reset Trigger
Overall Length 7.60"
Overall Height 5.10"
Overall Width 1.60"
Barrel Length 3.90"
Sight Radius 5.70"
Sights SIGLIGHTŪ Night Sights
Weight w/ Mag 38oz
Magazine Capacity 9mm 10 or 12 Rounds
Mag Capacity .40 S&W & .357SIG 10 or 12 Rounds
Grips Custom Rosewood Grips
Finish Natural Stainless
MSRP $1,286.00
CA Compliant No
MA Compliant No
I have a whopping sample size of 2 to base this on.
A few years ago, I bought my fiancee a P239. Things didn't work out, and we ain't engaged anymore, but I did transfer the P239 to her.
She just got out of the Police academy a few months back, where she used the P239 for part of the academy, but midway through bought a P226 (both platforms in 9mm).
The "feel" and the "build quality" of the P239 is much better. This P239 was prolly bought about 2 years before the P226. Not that the P226 ain't a bad gun, it's accurate and goes bang. The only problems I've had with it are the crappy 10rnd factory mags, but since she is now a LEO the 10rnd mag CA laws don't apply to her.
BTW, I have 2 Berettas and the build quality is freaking fantastic. One American made 92FS Inox that was a gift on my 21st from my dad (bout 9 years old now), and an Elite 2.
Those wooden grips Sig makes or buys or whatever are awful. They are too thick and lots of people have trouble with them splintering plus they look cheap and ugly. Now Nills grips would be nice if i wanted Sig wood grips. I should at least mention that I do really like the SRT trigger although going from full DA first pull to SRT seems odd to me. I also like the full stainless models but I don't get Sigs beavertail design. It actually pushes my hand lower on the grip. I am also intrigued by the Sig 556 rifle.
Love the Dan Wesson Bobcat .45. Very nice pistol for the $$$. I have two of them and a friend has two in 10mm that he uses for carry.
I am afraid you are wrong... I do also own a stainless steel Dan Wesson .45 and that is a stainless steel finish !!!
sigmundsauer
10-11-08, 11:05
I've completely lost interest in Sig after many years of being a big fan. They do not deserve my $$$ due to poor QC, lack of innovation, and increasingly poor customer service. It takes a long time to build up a reputation but a very short time to lose it. The P250 was supposed to be their big splash but dealers can't give them away. I suppose that explains why the other caliber P250's have not showed up yet.
Ditto.
Tim
Yes, I agree with you on that one... The P250, as far as I understand , it is crap . About their Customer Service , don`t know because I havent had the need to use it... my two Sigs are perfect , so that is that.
varoadking
10-11-08, 12:47
The P250, as far as I understand , it is crap .
Interesting... What have you heard?
No sir, I am not...
...and while I didn't need the SiG website to tell me that it is natural stainless steel...perhaps you do.
This is stupid... You can believe whatever you want , I can care less !!! The fact that Sig Sauer would have chosen another name for their stainless steel finish treatment , maybe because of market impact or whatever , doesn`t means that is is not what it is commonly called NP3 . If you take a look at your own pistol and cannot distinguish the difference between this finish and the real stainlees steel finish , well, that is your right ...!!! The finish differences are so obvious , including imbeded Teflon and the finish color , that I fail to see the point in even arguing about it ...!!! This is a free country and you can have all the opinions that you like ... It was not my intention to try to make or force you to change your believe or your way of reasoning !!! Have a nice day
sigmundsauer
10-11-08, 13:37
Interesting... What have you heard?
DAO, with no short reset as originally expected. High FTF rate due to weak hammer strike. Otherwise it's an OK gun.
I wouldn't call it "crap." Uninspiring, maybe.
Tim
varoadking
10-11-08, 14:14
This is stupid... You can believe whatever you want , I can care less !!! The fact that Sig Sauer would have chosen another name for their stainless steel finish treatment , maybe because of market impact or whatever , doesn`t means that is is not what it is commonly called NP3 . If you take a look at your own pistol and cannot distinguish the difference between this finish and the real stainlees steel finish , well, that is your right ...!!! The finish differences are so obvious , including imbeded Teflon and the finish color , that I fail to see the point in even arguing about it ...!!! This is a free country and you can have all the opinions that you like ... It was not my intention to try to make or force you to change your believe or your way of reasoning !!!
Keep your shirt on fella...you'll burst that vein in your neck. You stated that I was wrong...I simply corrected you...
Ever hear of bead blasting?
varoadking
10-11-08, 14:18
DAO, with no short reset as originally expected. High FTF rate due to weak hammer strike. Otherwise it's an OK gun.
I wouldn't call it "crap." Uninspiring, maybe.
Tim
That would be disappointing...
Parabellum9x19mm
10-11-08, 14:27
Yes, I agree with you on that one... The P250, as far as I understand , it is crap . About their Customer Service , don`t know because I havent had the need to use it... my two Sigs are perfect , so that is that.
the P250 isn't crap. its a very simple design. i like it.
i can understand why many people don't like the long trigger pull and long reset, but on a defensive CCW pistol it gets the job done just fine.
on the range i still prefer my P226s, but i think people are too tough on the P250.
i think a lot of the reason people complain about light strikes is because they never strip the fire control unit. the dual hammer springs can get pretty gunked up if you don't clean them out. never had a malfunction of any kind with mine.
Yeah, that's NOT NP3. I have an NP3 refinished Sig P220 and josey88, what you have is not NP3. Sorry. What you have is a bead blasted natural stainless steel finish.
Back to the original question, I haven't purchased (or wanted to purchase) anything coming out of Exeter, NH in years. My personally owned duty pistol is a P229R, but it gets inspected and reworked by the armorers and has proven itself through thousands of rounds and a fair bit of training. But I don't see anything that remotely interests me in their new offerings. The P250 hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. It seems like an interesting idea, right up until they decided on that trigger. No thanks! The 1911 pistols aren't appealing to me. Everything else is a just adding some cosmetic bling to their standard lines and sorry, but I don't need a shiny finish, or a poorly thought out and designed beavertail.
And yes, the quality of these pistols have suffered. The Kimber guy has led them down the Kimber trail where its quantity over quality and innovation is defined as making pistols more cheaply and selling them for more. And adding features that don't enhance the function or reliability of the pistol, but instead just give the buyer some eye candy or a marketing hyped feature that's not nearly as useful as they claim (see the aforementioned beavertail).
I'll stick to the Sigs I have. Which are Sig SAUER pistols all manufactured in Germany in the 1980s and early 1990s.
Sig's 250 is the modular one, right? Where you're supposed to be able to interchange all sorts of parts pretty easily with other calibers? If it's what I'm thinking, the idea looks great on paper. Modularity of internal components, while maintaining external ones? Brilliant. I've never seen one, though, in any gun shop or gun show local to Tampa.
For those in the know, does Sig's drop in QC correlate to its change from Sig Arms to Sig Sauer (2007) or back when the split from SIG (2000), or does it go further back when they were moving their base of operations around (from VA to NH)? I'm not sure when they got their leadership change during all that, but that might be a factor too.
-B
I have always heard that the older West German models were better and that Sig now has no QC control
I've owned the WG models and the newer models and can say I was pleased with both
Yeah, that's NOT NP3. I have an NP3 refinished Sig P220 and josey88, what you have is not NP3. Sorry. What you have is a bead blasted natural stainless steel finish.
Correct. Absolutely correct. 100% indisputably correct.
Sig's 250 is the modular one, right?
The P250 was designed years ago and has been available overseas for quite a while in 9mm. When the US sister company (then SIGARMS, now SIG-Sauer) received the first samples, it was decided that (1) the gun needed to be available in .40-cal at initial launch to avoid the stigma of being a "9mm gun design converted to .40" and (2) the trigger pull was far too heavy and gritty for the US market.
First, Germany spent a couple of years trying to make the gun work in .40 and finally gave up. Then the engineers in the US tried, and pretty much gave up. Then new management was hired and began making big changes in '05 and '06 (this is the famous "Kimber guy," Ron Cohen). With P220-series sales flagging, the decision was made to refocus efforts on the P250 as a less expensive alternative.
When I left SIG in late '07, the 9mm P250's release had been delayed repeatedly and the .40-cal model was still in development.
Rumor I'm hearing is that, between the problems they've had with the guns on the market and the very slow sales, SIG is likely to "reboot" the design with a striker-fired version. We'll see.
The modularity of the gun is certainly interesting. How much better it is practically compared to changeable grip straps like you have on the H&K P30, S&W M&P, etc. is a matter of debate.
For those in the know, does Sig's drop in QC correlate to its change from Sig Arms to Sig Sauer (2007) or back when the split from SIG (2000), or does it go further back when they were moving their base of operations around (from VA to NH)? I'm not sure when they got their leadership change during all that, but that might be a factor too.
'05 to '06 ... could just be a coincidence I guess. :rolleyes:
I have 7 Sigs.
2 have stainless slides: the P220R SAO Carry ('07) and the P220R ('07).
Both of those slides rust on a regular basis after 6+ hours in a leather IWB. They are NOT NP3.
My P226R ('04) does not rust, it has their "nitron" finish - well, the takedown lever rusts, nothing else.
My ('91) P228 rusts.
My P6s ('80/'84) rust.
My blued P232 ('07) rusts.
Only failures among the seven are 2 failures to go into battery out of the first mag fired from my P220 SAO.
I think I've been pretty lucky as far as getting good Sigs goes. Finish, except the 226R, is not up to par. The 226R has a VERY loose frame/slide fit, by far the loosest gun I own, but also very accurate.
I have since switched to the M&P 9 Pro for IWB and OWB with a 442 for backup.
edit: I did have several P220 ACT-MAG mags that did not drop free from the SAO during a Pat Rogers pistol course last weekend. No big deal, ripped them out, dropped them and kept going.
2 have stainless slides: the P220R SAO Carry ('07) and the P220R ('07).
Both of those slides rust on a regular basis after 6+ hours in a leather IWB. They are NOT NP3.
Not uncommon, I had a P226ST-357 that I used on a rainy day and then put back in its box after a quick wipe down. Three months later I took it out of the box and had a bright orange gun. The stainless SIG uses (like many other companies, this isn't a slam on SIG) is chosen for its durability and machinability, not so much for its corrosion resistance.
Also, sometimes during the bead blasting process there is some water trapped in the metal which isn't properly dried. This can exacerbate corrosion.
The 226R has a VERY loose frame/slide fit, by far the loosest gun I own, but also very accurate.
Put a loaded magazine in the gun and the rattle will (mostly) go away. That loose fit is really just a function of how the barrel interacts with the locking insert. If you know what you're doing, you can file on the barrel a little bit and it will lock up tight again. You won't gain a thing in accuracy, but it will stop rattling.
edit: I did have several P220 ACT-MAG mags that did not drop free from the SAO during a Pat Rogers pistol course last weekend. No big deal, ripped them out, dropped them and kept going.
I've been unimpressed with ACT mags.
I believe QA is down in recent years, however, when I had an issue with one of my Sigs (first issue out of 9 Sigs over 20 years), my email was answered within 12 hours, I was given a shipping label and was never questioned or second guessed- the gun was promised back within 2 weeks and arrived in 11 days with all repairs done in a satisfactory manner...some of which were nitpicks which I happen to mention along with the main issue - in my case, CS was top notch.
I've been unimpressed with ACT mags.
Really? I've always read how great they are.
cc
The ones I've used have had a tendency to split down the back near the top. They caused no end of problems with the SIG GSR.
Put a loaded magazine in the gun and the rattle will (mostly) go away. That loose fit is really just a function of how the barrel interacts with the locking insert. If you know what you're doing, you can file on the barrel a little bit and it will lock up tight again. You won't gain a thing in accuracy, but it will stop rattling.
Thanks for your input! It's good to hear from someone who really knows what they are talking about.
The 226R rattle doesn't bother me in the least. The gun is reliable and accurate and the finish holds up well. That's all I ask of my carry guns (and I do still carry it occasionally).
Got some calls from friends today who are all working for or associated with SIG here in the U.S. The company had a rather serious run of layoffs last week. Most notable among them that I'm aware of was the former MA State Trooper in the LE Sales division. He was put in charge of trying to keep the production and QA people on the ball when it came to LE guns. He was a frequent vocal opponent of the cost-cutting (and corner-cutting) decisions being made up there. I guess management decided they could do better without him complaining every time guns went out the door with problems.
I do not predict good things ...
John_Wayne777
10-15-08, 08:04
Got some calls from friends today who are all working for or associated with SIG here in the U.S. The company had a rather serious run of layoffs last week. Most notable among them that I'm aware of was the former MA State Trooper in the LE Sales division. He was put in charge of trying to keep the production and QA people on the ball when it came to LE guns. He was a frequent vocal opponent of the cost-cutting (and corner-cutting) decisions being made up there. I guess management decided they could do better without him complaining every time guns went out the door with problems.
I do not predict good things ...
Management types spend inordinate amounts of time reading a bunch of management books, generally the whiz-bang theory du jour....but nobody ever seems to read the chapter that warns about group-think.
Funny how that works out, ain't it?
....but nobody ever seems to read the chapter that warns about group-think.
Funny how that works out, ain't it?
I certainly agree with you, JW. I think we all agree with you. Anyone who doesn't agree with you should be shunned.
:cool:
Got some calls from friends today who are all working for or associated with SIG here in the U.S. The company had a rather serious run of layoffs last week. Most notable among them that I'm aware of was the former MA State Trooper in the LE Sales division. He was put in charge of trying to keep the production and QA people on the ball when it came to LE guns. He was a frequent vocal opponent of the cost-cutting (and corner-cutting) decisions being made up there. I guess management decided they could do better without him complaining every time guns went out the door with problems.
I do not predict good things ...
So the company's response to worsening economics (worsening sales??) is to kick out those who want the company's products to be better?
That certainly sounds like it will help sales!:rolleyes:
varoadking
10-18-08, 10:09
Got some calls from friends today who are all working for or associated with SIG here in the U.S. The company had a rather serious run of layoffs last week.
If you are at liberty...
I know you mentioned the Trooper, but would "serious" refer to select key personnel that might affect quality control, or more along the lines of large numbers of general staff that is more likely to affect overall production?
The Trooper matter appears to be more of an outright dismissal than a layoff...
Just wondering if the demand for SiG is seen as diminishing, which may be a result of quality control or price point, both potentially affecting commercial and/or LE sales...
Some mid-level "major" people, and a fairly significant number of people overall given the small size of the company. Most of the ones I know about by name were in the LE division, for obvious reasons.
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