View Full Version : He's a bleeder!
That's a lot of blood considering the seconds between being shot and that puddle. I'm assuming a femoral artery hit. Apparently the tourniquet saved his life by the fast responding LEO. Note all the whining by shootee...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv-YU19s4S4
Whiskey_Bravo
07-28-17, 16:54
Yeah that had to have been an artery. That was a crap ton of blood really fast.
Averageman
07-28-17, 17:09
And that's why I'm not a Cop.
Before I would get covered in the HIV, Hep C blood of some scum bag that just tried to take me out I would deliver chest compressions 90 mph hoping to drain the SOB before the paramedics got there.
Of course I would shout some encouraging things for the other hood rats to hear just to make it sound good.
What an incredible human being that cop is. He gets blood from that POS that was shooting at him all over himself with no gloves, and saves his life. Better man than me. Definitely a femoral artorie wound, you could see the blood pumping out. What did he use for a tornequt , an ankle holster?
Whiskey_Bravo
07-28-17, 17:14
What an incredible human being that cop is. He gets blood from that POS that was shooting at him , and saves his life. Better man than me. Definitely a femoral artorie wound, you could see the blood pumping out. What did he use for a tornequt , an ankle holster?
Looked like an actual tourniquet he had strapped on his ankle.
Yeah that had to have been an artery. That was a crap ton of blood really fast.
You can literally see the puddle expanding while he's trying to get the tourniquet on right.
So class...what could this individual have done to prevent this incident from happening?
So class...what could this individual have done to prevent this incident from happening?
Not shooting at the police is usually a good start.
Looked like the female perp got hit in the wrist by a ricochet? Since not life threatening, that officer took time to don PPE before working her.
dwhitehorne
07-28-17, 19:59
30 more seconds and he would have definitely been toast. That officer is better than me. The shooter would have laid there and bled until I found out that all those other suspects were secure. David
The story was the girl with the wrist injury, she was an accomplice/participant/connected, actually took one through the wrist as the perp shot at the cops -- from the perp's gun.
SeriousStudent
07-28-17, 20:46
From what I was taught in recent classes from Dark Angel Medical (Kerry Davis) and Lone Star Medics (Caleb Causey), you have about 12 seconds to apply an effective tourniquet to stop a femoral bleeder. Later than that, you start rolling the dice.
Both gentlemen recommend taking the TQ out of the wrapper and prepping it for rapid application.
They also recommend not shooting at the police, as SteyrAUG suggested.
The story was the girl with the wrist injury, she was an accomplice/participant/connected, actually took one through the wrist as the perp shot at the cops -- from the perp's gun.
Classic.
Wow to that cop. Could not have handled that better.
And for mr. "I'm dying sir." Maybe you shouldn't have tried to ****ing kill him! What a narcissistic twisted individual. Maybe it was shock, but that guy is rediculous.
From what I was taught in recent classes from Dark Angel Medical (Kerry Davis) and Lone Star Medics (Caleb Causey), you have about 12 seconds to apply an effective tourniquet to stop a femoral bleeder. Later than that, you start rolling the dice.
Both gentlemen recommend taking the TQ out of the wrapper and prepping it for rapid application.
Yup. Most programs I've seen use either a ~15 second, ~30 second, or 1 minute goal for TQ application. I favor the lowest for obvious reasons and drill to that standard. Fortunately, how much/fast you bleed will depend on the location, vessel, and all the cool stuff your body does when injured to compensate.
Prep the TQ, and keep it on your person.
SeriousStudent
07-28-17, 21:49
Shameless plug for some friends of mine:
October 14-15: Counter Robbery and Tactical Medicine EDC class by Lone Star Medics and Hardwired Tactical Shooting.
http://lonestarmedics.com/lsm-schedule/
https://www.facebook.com/Hardwired-Tactical-Shooting-289679681133490/
I did the first iteration of this class when they tested the syllabus, and loved it. A full day of counter-robbery shooting scenarios, with the following day of hands-on medical training. Then they put you on a hot range where you have to walk into a scene and apply everything you learned, with shoot/no-shoots and medical skills.
Loads of fun, and you get to pressure-test your skills. Then a debrief, and you watch others.
Very highly recommended.
SeriousStudent
07-28-17, 21:52
Yup. Most programs I've seen use either a ~15 second, ~30 second, or 1 minute goal for TQ application. I favor the lowest for obvious reasons and drill to that standard. Fortunately, how much/fast you bleed will depend on the location, vessel, and all the cool stuff your body does when injured to compensate.
Prep the TQ, and keep it on your person.
I'll try and find the link to that ankle rig I bought from pennzoil over on P-F. That is a sweet rig, and I carry it almost every day.
Maybe you could do a picture thread we could sticky, on how to rig a TQ for fast availability? I think it would be a very useful reference.
Mr. Goodtimes
07-28-17, 21:53
So class...what could this individual have done to prevent this incident from happening?
What is not breaking the law for 500?
ETA: what a hell of a cop. It literally made my teeth cringe watching him get that turds blood all over him with no protection.
I love how the guys attitude change really quickly after he got smoked. It went from, trying to kill the cops to what I believe was "sir I'm dying." Also, FWIW, when I was in school, I remember one of our instructors telling us that if a pt tells you that they're dying, they probably are. Not "I feel like I'm dying" but "I'm dying."
Seeing as that was inevitably a femoral artery shot, he was in fact dying until the cop slapped that tourniquet on.
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30 more seconds and he would have definitely been toast. That officer is better than me. The shooter would have laid there and bled until I found out that all those other suspects were secure. David
Me too. Might take me longer than 12 seconds to get out of the "F you, you just tried to kill me on purpose jackass" frame of mind. For every cop video of a "questionable" shoot, I think "I'm covered in the blood of some POS while saving his life when just seconds ago he was trying to kill me" pretty much cancels out the "epidemic problem of abuse by law enforcement" theory.
Try and find somebody from BLM, cop watch or any other similar group who would have done the same for any other human being that they didn't already have a strong bond with.
Incredible on a variety of levels...30 seconds from leaking out, crazy.
Makes me wonder if the perp will someday ever acknowledge (even if it takes to his golden years) that the very men who were forced into the situation from his self inflicted deviant lifestyle actually performed the last second / life saving actions to allow him to reflect?? How simple would it have been to loose those insane precious seconds checking your 6 / partner vs diving in?? Really don't know how you guys do it sometimes. That was cool...Thanks for sharing.
Moose-Knuckle
07-29-17, 05:06
All I wonder is how many lives the perp will effect negatively when he goes through the revolving door of the judicial system.
There is a reason why people are not invincible.
Incredible on a variety of levels...30 seconds from leaking out, crazy.
Makes me wonder if the perp will someday ever acknowledge (even if it takes to his golden years) that the very men who were forced into the situation from his self inflicted deviant lifestyle actually performed the last second / life saving actions to allow him to reflect?? How simple would it have been to loose those insane precious seconds checking your 6 / partner vs diving in?? Really don't know how you guys do it sometimes. That was cool...Thanks for sharing.
The cynic/realist in me says he'll blame them for his injuries and want a payout from the PD for their excessive use of force. :(
From what I was taught in recent classes from Dark Angel Medical (Kerry Davis) and Lone Star Medics (Caleb Causey), you have about 12 seconds to apply an effective tourniquet to stop a femoral bleeder. Later than that, you start rolling the dice.
Both gentlemen recommend taking the TQ out of the wrapper and prepping it for rapid application.
They also recommend not shooting at the police, as SteyrAUG suggested.
I seriously doubt that the majority of first responders can get a tourniquet on any extremity in 12 seconds or less, even if the 12-second guess is correct. That cop's performance was impressive. Naturally, it also assumes that the injury is in a location when a tourniquet can even be useful in a femoral artery injury which can't be known is the suspect is prone. IMHO, more appropriate to say... immediately get direct pressure on the wound and stop the bleeding as quickly as you can while your partner or someone is getting your tourniquet from the FAK in the squad. I think that it's classic that many people put the priority on getting a tourniquet on rather than taking the obvious first steps, examining the wound and stopping the bleeding by the most expedient method. Sign of the times. Tourniquets are magic.
Wow to that cop. Could not have handled that better.
I agree...unless the suspect has AIDS or such.
Try and find somebody from BLM, cop watch or any other similar group who would have done the same for any other human being that they didn't already have a strong bond with.
Quote from my daughter (who is a lifeguard BTW) to my wife: 'Oh, on the way home we saw an accident, daddy touched the guy and got blood all over his hands without putting on gloves.'
I agree...unless the suspect has AIDS or such.
Seriously, educate me, see previous post.
Absent aerosol transmission into the mouth, nose or eyes, I thought it was pretty hard to contract AIDS by just contact with fluids, unless you had a breach of the skin. Of course, this is assuming you don't lick your fingers.
I'm all about universal precautions, but have been known to act without them.
Seriously, educate me, see previous post.
Absent aerosol transmission into the mouth, nose or eyes, I thought it was pretty hard to contract AIDS by just contact with fluids, unless you had a breach of the skin. Of course, this is assuming you don't lick your fingers.
I'm all about universal precautions, but have been known to act without them.One could posit a number of scenarios. The hands are our interface with the outside physical world and are therefore subject to all manner of trauma, known or unknown, either before or after one has glovelessly put a tourniquet on an HIV-infected criminal and the hands become soaked in blood. Statistically, the risk of infection is small, but the hassle and even risk-of-life is potentially very, very large. To quote Harry Calahan..."ya gotta ask yourself...do you feel lucky?"
Holy shit is right! That cop's a hero, but how long does it take to put gloves on? With all the potential blood-born diseases out there, I'm not sure I would have done that for a stranger, even if that stranger hadn't just tried to kill me.
Looks like he had a CAT7 TQ and had difficulties getting it threaded around the leg. I think I need to reconsider where I keep my TQ and just how accessable it is (or isn't).
And that's why I'm not a Cop.
Before I would get covered in the HIV, Hep C blood of some scum bag that just tried to take me out I would deliver chest compressions 90 mph hoping to drain the SOB before the paramedics got there.
Of course I would shout some encouraging things for the other hood rats to hear just to make it sound good.
Observed many shootings on television. The standard default words of encouragement are, "Stay with me man! Stay with me bro! Stay with me partner!" All the while getting teary eyed while gently cradling his/her head in your arms. No further action needs to be taken. The situation will resolve itself in short order. They either live or they die. That's how it's done on television. So I'll run with that! :)
I seriously doubt that the majority of first responders can get a tourniquet on any extremity in 12 seconds or less, even if the 12-second guess is correct. That cop's performance was impressive. Naturally, it also assumes that the injury is in a location when a tourniquet can even be useful in a femoral artery injury which can't be known is the suspect is prone. IMHO, more appropriate to say... immediately get direct pressure on the wound and stop the bleeding as quickly as you can while your partner or someone is getting your tourniquet from the FAK in the squad. I think that it's classic that many people put the priority on getting a tourniquet on rather than taking the obvious first steps, examining the wound and stopping the bleeding by the most expedient method. Sign of the times. Tourniquets are magic.
No expert, have some mil and work in the LE field now. You are right, we are trained now that if a TQ can go on, just TQ it. I know this cannot be across the board, but I know it has changed from what I've been taught years ago.
Averageman
07-31-17, 07:08
No expert, have some mil and work in the LE field now. You are right, we are trained now that if a TQ can go on, just TQ it. I know this cannot be across the board, but I know it has changed from what I've been taught years ago.
I started my career in the .mil during the cold war. We were drilled in the use of pressure bandages again and again, the tourniquet was the absolute and last resort.
I would suppose we were expecting gsw's rather than the explosive amputations encountered in the gwt. Different tools for different times.
Yup. Most programs I've seen use either a ~15 second, ~30 second, or 1 minute goal for TQ application. I favor the lowest for obvious reasons and drill to that standard. Fortunately, how much/fast you bleed will depend on the location, vessel, and all the cool stuff your body does when injured to compensate.
Prep the TQ, and keep it on your person.
There's not a whole lot of good data on exactly how long it takes to bleed to death from a single femoral artery wound, but I have seen an average of about 4-5 minutes (I have seen literature stating 2:30 on the extremely fast side, and 10-12 on the extremely slow side). Of course, there are so many variables. The standard shouldn't be "n" seconds, but rather "as soon as possible." I also know that in courses there needs to be a testable standard, so I'd find the fastest course "standard" and drill to that.
I started my career in the .mil during the cold war. We were drilled in the use of pressure bandages again and again, the tourniquet was the absolute and last resort.
I would suppose we were expecting gsw's rather than the explosive amputations encountered in the gwt. Different tools for different times.
Throughout my MIL career, the guidance from the CoTCCC was that during Care Under Fire, the first step for controlling massive extremity hemorrhage was a tourniquet. Rule of thumb for "massive" is if it's enough to soak their clothing or make you question if it needs a TQ, then it gets a TQ. After either moving the casualty to security or stopping the threat, you would run through a full MARCH assessment and after the Medic gets hands on, he would either perform a tourniquet conversion or just leave it in place if MEDEVAC were currently en route. There has only been one documented loss of limb from a properly applied tourniquet in the GWOT, as the few others were from improper application (cutting off venous outflow but not arterial supply) or from improvised TQs that were too narrow. My EMS agencies protocol is a minimum of 2" wide if we make an improvised TQ, however we do carry CATs. I have not applied a TQ in EMS, as most bleeding is either already controlled through the bodies natural clotting or they're damn close to traumatic arrest. Even if we arrive and someone is actively bleeding, it's most commonly just capillary and easily controlled by some 4x4s and pressure. The one amputation I've worked on the job (hand ripped off by machinery) wasn't even bleeding when we showed up given the vessels had shunted away from the amputation. I've only seen one amputation on deployment, and it honestly wasn't bleeding as much as I expected.
Even most gunshots don't bleed much unless they hit a major vessel. A lot of the ones I work look like pencil holes with a line of blood oozing out.
The concept of "TQ first" holds validity in combat medicine, given you don't have the time to expose and assess a wound compared to needing to keep as much blood in their body as possible. The key word is MASSIVE hemorrhage; if it's enough to soak their clothing, it gets a TQ and a second look when either the situation or time allows. Tourniquet conversions are taught and are a part of Prolonged Field Care/Indirect Threat Care (TECC), but the current research and publications in JSOM suggest that even a TQ applied for minor bleeding will be perfectly safe for the casualty so long as it's properly applied (appropriate width, fully occludes arterial blood supply).
This isn't recommended for all bleeding control, but in combat, it provides great benefit with minimal risk to both the rescuer or the casualty. It shouldn't be the first step in every situation, but it does have a place.
As Hmac said: expose the wound and see what you're working with. If it's arterial (and there's no mistake if it is, that shit is ****ing gnarly) then even with a hemostatic dressing, direct pressure is still going to require 3 minutes for a clot to form while holding 20lbs of pressure on the vessel. That is a ****ing smoke fest and it works okay in a training environment. Not so well when your casualty is kicking, screaming, and trying to fight you off of them while spurting blood everywhere that keeps knocking out whatever clot you're trying to form. So everything has its place.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-31-17, 10:21
I started my career in the .mil during the cold war. We were drilled in the use of pressure bandages again and again, the tourniquet was the absolute and last resort.
I would suppose we were expecting gsw's rather than the explosive amputations encountered in the gwt. Different tools for different times.
In my MIL and LE training (MIL 08-12, LE 13 to now) TQ's have been the first priority in a major bleed incident.
These cops are incredible. My hat is off to them.
I'll try and find the link to that ankle rig I bought from pennzoil over on P-F. That is a sweet rig, and I carry it almost every day.
Maybe you could do a picture thread we could sticky, on how to rig a TQ for fast availability? I think it would be a very useful reference.
I was impressed with how they reacted. They both deserve a lifesaving medal and combat award. I argued in a simunitions scenario recently with the instructor. The bad guy and I had a shoot out in a pitch black basement. I was alone with him. I sucked up several hits with the last few to the inside of my thigh as he went empty and threw down his pistol. I pumped several rounds into him after he threw down his gun and gave up. The instructor went ape shit on me. I calmly explained he just shot me in the femoral artery and I needed to put him down to give myself first aid.
I was impressed with how they reacted. They both deserve a lifesaving medal and combat award. I argued in a simunitions scenario recently with the instructor. The bad guy and I had a shoot out in a pitch black basement. I was alone with him. I sucked up several hits with the last few to the inside of my thigh as he went empty and threw down his pistol. I pumped several rounds into him after he threw down his gun and gave up. The instructor went ape shit on me. I calmly explained he just shot me in the femoral artery and I needed to put him down to give myself first aid.
Seems like they need to come up with a combo award with extra cluster "for saving the life of someone who just seconds before was trying to take yours."
I was impressed with how they reacted. They both deserve a lifesaving medal and combat award. I argued in a simunitions scenario recently with the instructor. The bad guy and I had a shoot out in a pitch black basement. I was alone with him. I sucked up several hits with the last few to the inside of my thigh as he went empty and threw down his pistol. I pumped several rounds into him after he threw down his gun and gave up. The instructor went ape shit on me. I calmly explained he just shot me in the femoral artery and I needed to put him down to give myself first aid.
Too many people think it's a game. It's not. :(
Seems like they need to come up with a combo award with extra cluster "for saving the life of someone who just seconds before was trying to take yours."
That's a good point. You should write to the Sheriff or Chief.
Too many people think it's a game. It's not. :(
I agree. It got pretty heated. I still feel like I made the right decision. I told him, with some colorful language, that the shooter probably just killed me. I was going to incapacitate him before I lost consciousness and while I tried to give myself first aid. Either way I was putting the other guy out of the fight. It did not matter to me he just threw down his empty weapon. He had just emptied 15 to 18 rounds out of his G17T at me. Hitting me with over five rounds, two in the inner thigh.
SeriousStudent
07-31-17, 20:47
.........
I agree. It got pretty heated. I still feel like I made the right decision. I told him, with some colorful language, that the shooter probably just killed me. I was going to incapacitate him before I lost consciousness and while I tried to give myself first aid. Either way I was putting the other guy out of the fight. It did not matter to me he just threw down his empty weapon. He had just emptied 15 to 18 rounds out of his G17T at me. Hitting me with over five rounds, two in the inner thigh.
"Sir, he shot me in the nuts. So I smoked him."
In Texas, they would probably just nod thoughtfully and continue on.
"Sir, he shot me in the nuts. So I smoked him."
In Texas, they would probably just nod thoughtfully and continue on.
I told them I would be happy to explain that to a judge if it came down to it. Some people just don't get it.
See the artery pumping about 1:25, under the knee.
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