View Full Version : Why do all M4 stocks leave me wanting?
richardca99
07-30-17, 19:45
So I have tried several carbine stocks over the last few weeks, and all of them seem to have shortcomings. Next up is the B5 Enhanced SOPMOD or, perhaps, the UBR Gen 2.
Magpul ACS-L - the dumbest QD socket I've ever seen...and I need the QD. I don't know why this bothers me so much, but it's just absurd.
Magpul MOE - an entry level rattletrap
that I'm sure works fine for many, but I need something more solid.
LaRue RAT - a rattletrap, but probably my favorite among these disappointments. Good machinery, good cheek weld, and I like the mechanism. I wish it fit better on my MILSPEC tube.
Magpul PRS Gen 3 - I thought I had found Nirvanna, but the LOP is stupidly long. You cannot get the LOP below 14 inches or so. What were they thinking??
The LaRue is probably the best for my purpose, but it flaps around like a bitch on the buffer tube. I've not tried the VLTORs, as I have read that they are a loose fit.
I'm new to the AR game, but I never imagined these would be such a compromise. Cheek weld is important, as is a tight fit. Ideas?
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Cheek weld is important. A tight fit isn't. Sorta like a loose upper to lower fit... It's only a problem that exist between your ears. Buy the one that fits you beast.
Cheek weld is important. A tight fit isn't. Sorta like a loose upper to lower fit... It's only a problem that exist between your ears. Buy the one that fits you beast.
This. Loose fit may annoy you, but it won't contribute to any real problems.
That said, my b5 bravo fits me well and is tight. I'd try as many as possible, taking into account your sight height. Different facial features will interface differently. No one can tell you what stock will give you cheek weld with your face and sights.
What are your expectations? What do you require from a stock?
Edit: for jstalford below: what RE? Mine was loose on my stag, but tight on my bcm, just tight enough to not rattle with use.
Magpul SL-S
ETA all my B5 have been loose. Didn't stop me from using it though. Also if the only thing bothering you about the moe is the rattle, just get a ctr or sl.
Stock to tube fitment varies. As GH41 stated it kind of like upper and lower fit. it a tolerance stacking thing, some will be tighter than others.
That said, as far as rattle, I'm not convinced that much that it is a huge issue, unless it truly is excessive. A good example here that I will use, is mag fitment and stock fitment, even stocks that I have, BCM Gunfighter, or CTR, both fit tight, but there is still a little play. Not as much play as a loaded mag in the rifle, which can be pushed around a little, but still a bit of play. Mag hasn't given me an issue, and I have mags with even more play which run fine. So i chalk it up to it not being a big enough issue for me to worry about for a carbine that is not a precision rifle and carry on. I also have an old M4 stock on one AR, it has more play, forward and back probably between an 1/8 and a 1/4 of an inch. Still don't have any issues with that. Gun has run fine and I kind of actually like the M4 stock on the rifle. I really have a hard time thinking of a stock that I have used, at least from a quality manufacturer that didn't work really. Be it the MOE, M4, CTR, ACS, BCM gunfighter, B5 Bravo, STR, ect.
Fordtough25
07-30-17, 20:32
I find the moe lacking but the ctr very nice for magpul, I don't hate the sopmod but like the ctr better.
I really like the new SLS stock from Magpul. Good cheek weld and tight fit. The Vltor EMOD is nice as well. All of mine have been a very tight fit.
Rifleman_04
07-30-17, 20:50
Cheek weld is important. A tight fit isn't. Sorta like a loose upper to lower fit... It's only a problem that exist between your ears. Buy the one that fits you beast.
Unless you have a beard.
I quit looking for the perfect stock and just went back to the standard LMT carbine stock. Tight fit to RE, no wiggle or slop so no plucked beard hair and is light weight. Had to give up the QD though.
TacticalMark
07-30-17, 20:55
Try the B5 SOPMOD or a Ti-7 which is a excellent stock. My last B5 on a Vltor tube was very tight.
Check out B5 systems sopmod enhanced or sopmod bravo. Tight fit on mine, good cheek weld
mkmckinley
07-30-17, 20:57
Of all the stocks I've tried my BCM probably has the tightest fit. It's a really good design.
Daniel defense if you like the somewhat angled buttplate. Really tight.
I ditched all the stocks, and went universally to the BCM stocks.
I tried them all, and hated most. The BCM I found was the best overall.
The BCM Stocks are also super tight, so much so I've even had to sand down the inside of the stock just to be able to use it because it fit so tight on a Daniel Defense RE.
I've had two B5 Enhanced SOPMOD stocks and both are extremely tight fitting on the buffer tube (Vltor A5).
Are Luth-AR stocks out of the running for consideration? If not, I highly recommend them.
Where are all these tight fitting sopmods when I'm buying? All mine have been loose (not wobbly, just not SL tight) on the vltor.
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Where are all these tight fitting sopmods when I'm buying? All mine have been loose (not wobbly, just not SL tight) on the vltor.
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Can't speak to a sopmod, but I had a B5 Bravo on a Rainier buffer tube that was quite tight, have handled some of the B5 Sopmods that were pretty tight fit too. Small sample though.
I hate rattley stocks... With a quality milspec extension (BCM, Rainier Arms) you can sometimes reduce that somewhat. VLTOR tubes are usually sightly undersized.
Here are some other quality stock options:
B5 SOPMOD enhanced- tight fit, great stock weld. My favorite stock for a standard tube. Perfect ergonomics, in my opinion. I prefer the straight buttpad.
UBR- the greatest AR stock ever made, but heavy. Impervious to abuse, very ergonomic, lots of great features, but still simple. My experience with the UBR2 was positive, and I plan to get one when they are released in OD.
Magpul STR- a good choice for an A5 tube. It is sturdy, and it has a lock to keep it tight.
VLTOR IMOD- also tight, very compact and comfortable... unless you have facial hair.
BCM- extremely tight, zero rattle. Great ergonomics, but lacks storage.
para13cord
07-30-17, 22:21
Find whatever is the most comfortable on your cheek and shoulder and add small strips of tape to the buffer tube until the stock is nice and snug.
I've always liked the Magpul CTR and Sopmod/B5 non-enhanced, but Griffin may be my favorite. For fixed I prefer the looks and ergos of the old A1 over the A2. The BCM and Larue work fine, but IMO look fugly and my BCMs were all too tight.
https://www.griffinarmament.com/product-p/ecsblk.htm
itsmcgavinson
07-30-17, 23:09
I was in the same boat for while. I went from M4, to Magpul CTR, LMT SOPMOD, Vltor IMod, LWRC Compact Stock, to all the way back to the CTR again. I just love the way the CTR is angled against my shoulder.
Unless you have a beard.
I quit looking for the perfect stock and just went back to the standard LMT carbine stock. Tight fit to RE, no wiggle or slop so no plucked beard hair and is light weight. Had to give up the QD though.
I once had the pleasure of shooting with Ken Hackathorn and noticed that he had what looked like heat shrink around the front of his stock. Curious, I asked what it was for. I thought maybe it was to keep someone from changing the LOP or cut down on the rattle.
"A lot of people ask me that, he answered, "and they expect some deep secret to be revealed. But really, it's quite simple." With an amused twinkle in his eye, he brushed the right side of his upper lip with a finger. "It's a section of bicycle inner tube. It's to keep this side of my mustache from being plucked shorter than the other"
If the stock is a bit loose, you can add layers of electricians to the RE to tighten it up
Among the ACS, LMT SOPMOD, EMOD, and BCM, the BCM has by far the tightest fit on BCM receiver extensions. The others are all pretty equal in that regard.
The UBR has been my favorite stock for years, with the weight being the only real negative aspect. Now that I've put an A5 buffer in it (haven't tested it yet), the Gen 2 will likely become my new favorite.
I once had the pleasure of shooting with Ken Hackathorn and noticed that he had what looked like heat shrink around the front of his stock. Curious, I asked what it was for. I thought maybe it was to keep someone from changing the LOP or cut down on the rattle.
"A lot of people ask me that, he answered, "and they expect some deep secret to be revealed. But really, it's quite simple." With an amused twinkle in his eye, he brushed the right side of his upper lip with a finger. "It's a section of bicycle inner tube. It's to keep this side of my mustache from being plucked shorter than the other"
I can appreciate that. I use the stock pulling at my mustache or at my beard as a cue it is time to trim said beard or mustache. While some stocks are better than others, most will pull soon or later. The CTR is actually one of the worst for me.
vicious_cb
07-31-17, 02:20
So I have tried several carbine stocks over the last few weeks, and all of them seem to have shortcomings. Next up is the B5 Enhanced SOPMOD or, perhaps, the UBR Gen 2.
What short comings? What are your split times? Are you slower on the clock on with one stock over the other? If its based purely on feeling then I would quote DocKGR, "Feelings can lie".
Trying to take all the slop out of a stock is a waste of time. Shoot enough rounds and the slop will come back.
In regards to the Magpul PRS and its length of pull issue for the OP, its designed, from what I understand, to be used more from prone, and not necessarily standing up shouldered. You need the longer length of pull when shooting an AR prone vs. standing shouldered. Also its on a longer rifle length buffer tube.
ETA: I have not shot the Gen 2 PRS(I think the gen 2 is out).
The Luth-AR stock is the same, its pretty long. Works well when prone, but not so well standing shouldered.
I run the Luth-AR stock on my 6.5 creed AR. I like it, but dont smash your cheek onto the cheek piece as it will flex since its only supported on one side.
theorangecat
07-31-17, 05:49
Daniel defense if you like the somewhat angled buttplate. Really tight.
The DD we have here had a stock so tight when bought that I thought something was wrong with it. Now it is merely tight. I hated on the "new" DD furniture and was going to replace it, but I got a case of the lazies; after using the carbine "as-is," I am ambivalent about the stock design but like the DD grip a lot.
toc
The DD we have here had a stock so tight when bought that I thought something was wrong with it. Now it is merely tight. I hated on the "new" DD furniture and was going to replace it, but I got a case of the lazies; after using the carbine "as-is," I am ambivalent about the stock design but like the DD grip a lot.
toc
I'm the opposite... I'm ok with the new DD stock, but absolutely hate the pistol grip (the finger groove width... whose middle finger is a full inch thick?)
So, funny, I hated the angle of the stock too. Then I put it on my SBR, and it totally rockrd there. I can't say why, but the SBR "rocks" up and into mt shoulder better.
And yes, I almost brought out a mallet pulling it off the first rifle.
Haven't tried their grip.
For an inexpensive stock I feel the Rogers Super Stoc is the best. It allows you to tighten up the fit and works on both commercial and mil-spec tubes. I do have a UBR on my go to rifle but the drawback of course is the weight. Good luck with whatever you pick!
I was about to recommend the Rogers Super Stoc as well. The friction lock makes it very solid, and if for some reason you don't have time to set it the fit is pretty good without it. Cheap, too: https://rouschsports.com/shop/ar15-lower-parts/rss-rogers-super-stoc-stock-deluxe-mil-spec-commercial-fde-flat-dark-earth/ $28 shipped
I like rifle stocks, even on my carbines. However, if I do go with carbine stocks, the B5 Bravo works for me, haven't tried the B5 Enhanced yet. I've tried a bunch of others and just didn't like them.
Good luck, NYH1.
+1 for the B5 Enhanced. Haven't tried the Bravo but I'm sure its just as good.
To date my favorite is the BCM sopmod with the regular BCM gunfighter being a close second.
I don't get the love for the Regular sopmod stocks. Sure on a more precisionish rig their fine but anything else IMO their a monstrosity lol.
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LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-31-17, 14:33
Never had any issues with my B5 Bravo.
Displaced Texan
07-31-17, 18:49
Another vote for the Rogers Super Stok. I know they don't get a lot of love here, but they are lightweight, and lock up tight.
Another vote for the Rogers Super Stok. I know they don't get a lot of love here, but they are lightweight, and lock up tight.
For what it is worth, with the Roger's stock, and I haven't used one in so long I can't say I have an opinion on how well they work, they are kind of a fugly stock though, and I would be willing to bet that there are a fair number here who would look at other stocks because of that fact. I mean, I think they are fugly as a hell, and I am sure that I am not alone. Not saying I am just that shallow, I think Glocks are Fugly too. I still own glocks and crazy though, still think they are fugly though. Anyway, sorry for thread drift.
Displaced Texan
07-31-17, 19:24
For what it is worth, with the Roger's stock, and I haven't used one in so long I can't say I have an opinion on how well they work, they are kind of a fugly stock though, and I would be willing to bet that there are a fair number here who would look at other stocks because of that fact. I mean, I think they are fugly as a hell, and I am sure that I am not alone. Not saying I am just that shallow, I think Glocks are Fugly too. I still own glocks and crazy though, still think they are fugly though. Anyway, sorry for thread drift.
Function over form. I don't care if it's 'fugly', as long as it works 100%. I ain't taking it to the prom.
Unless you have a beard.
I quit looking for the perfect stock and just went back to the standard LMT carbine stock. Tight fit to RE, no wiggle or slop so no plucked beard hair and is light weight. Had to give up the QD though.
I agree 100% on the beard remark!
I run the MFT minimalist stock. They have a number of options depending on functionality, cheek weld, and weight, but (and I can certainly attest to mine) they fit TIGHT and actually require a little break-in to be functional. This is by design, and rattle becomes a thing of the distant past! Also, none of my beard whiskers get caught and pulled out one-by-one, and I keep it pretty short.
Win-win overall and an often overlooked, and reasonably priced option.
Function over form. I don't care if it's 'fugly', as long as it works 100%. I ain't taking it to the prom.
I know, I was just saying. Though form and function is nice. Besides, while you might not be taking the gun to prom I have known of a few people who might, operative phrase, had been so attracted to certain gun designs that upon acquiring the grail gun it may have spent quality time on the pillow next to them in bed. Gives a whole new meaning to that bio friendly non toxic lubes everyone was raving about don't it. :jester:
And with that image in everyone's skull I'll return everyone to their regularly scheduled discussion on stocks with this....
I don't think it has been mentioned, but if you are inclined to rattle can your guns that can help a little with stock rattle, if it is a little loose, at least until the paint wears off. Have a friend who's ARs benefited a bit from that, not that we really cared about the rattle at the time.
I have a CTR, but purchased BCMs over the last year or two with their Gunfighter stock. I really prefer them over some other brands..
If you like a stock but it rattles, put a 2"x4" piece of gorilla tape or 100 mph tape on the buffer tube.
masenomics
07-31-17, 20:24
I like the magpul moe SL the most, very tight fit with the leaf springs yet easily adjusted. It has a great cheek weld and qd sling points. Next would probably be the b5 bravo then the BCM gunfighter in that order for me.
the magpul UBR gen 2. Gen 1 was too heavy. Gen 2 is lighter, has the A5 buffer tube with the option for a carbine length spring/buffer if you want. If you can stomach the price (which is a lot better than the gen 1's used to be), I think it may be the stock for you
I don't think it has been mentioned, but if you are inclined to rattle can your guns that can help a little with stock rattle, if it is a little loose, at least until the paint wears off. Have a friend who's ARs benefited a bit from that, not that we really cared about the rattle at the time.
My rattle can paint job on my first AR did slightly tighten the fit of magpul CTR to my old mil spec tube but negated the function of the CTRs lock. It would pop back open after a couple shots. The best I can figure the layer of paint didnt allow the lock to fully snap into place.
Ive been somewhat fluid with stocks myself. Went from classic m4 to CTR to BCM to b5 bravo. I liked the CTR but was allured by the siren song of the BCM. I dont care much for the BCM. Its tight light and functional but the cheek weld sucks, Id liken it to the corner of a 2x4. Im patiently waiting for the supposed separate upgrade parts that initially sold me on this venture. In the meantime I got a b5 bravo which isnt bad. Im not known to be fussy but my b5 is distractingly loose in every direction (riding on a vltor a5 tube) Id like to try out a newer BCM w/ cheek weld or just get an EMOD and be done.
My secondary/safe queen has had a vltor IMOD from day one and I love it. I've always liked the cheek weld on vltor stocks
I have a good bit of facial hair and the vltor has been suprisingly kind to me. The others have taken significantly more hair off my face with the CTR leading the pack since it never stayed locked and often took several at a time. Ashame I otherwise liked the basic nature and design of the MOE /CTR
As for ugly rogers stocks and the form vs function discussion. Im big fan of function over form but only to the extent that if two or more options preform well I'll almost certainly pick the one I think is better looking with cost being considered after that. There are just too many good stocks in the catalog to end up stuck with a good ugly stock
I have had 2 vltors, and Emod and currently and Imod. Both on milspec tubes. I actually found the fit to be very (but not overly) tight. I was just about at tight as say a magpul CTR with the friction lock engaged. I love the Imod. Plus the cheek weld is great. It's actually what attracted me to the stock originally.
I like the magpul moe SL the most, very tight fit with the leaf springs yet easily adjusted. It has a great cheek weld and qd sling points. Next would probably be the b5 bravo then the BCM gunfighter in that order for me.
I've been very happy with the MOE-SL and Fixed Carbine stocks.
Both are solid.
So reading through this page I think you should have enough suggestions to keep you busy for the longest time. I also support the B5 Bravo, as well as the Magpul SL line of stocks, also the LWRCI Compact Stock is one that I fell like never gets any airtime.
RobertTheTexan
08-07-17, 07:39
So I have tried several carbine stocks over the last few weeks, and all of them seem to have shortcomings. Next up is the B5 Enhanced SOPMOD or, perhaps, the UBR Gen 2.
Magpul ACS-L
Magpul PRS Gen 3 - I thought I had found Nirvanna, but the LOP is stupidly long. You cannot get the LOP below 14 inches or so. What were they thinking??
I'm new to the AR game, but I never imagined these would be such a compromise. Cheek weld is important, as is a tight fit. Ideas?
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What drives whether a product is inferior or "compromised" are the standards you are holding the product to.
Over the course of owning/building AR's I have learned to let go of some of the issues that used to bother me. In other words, I realized that some of my "standards" had more to do with my OCD nature than actual issues that could compromise proper function of the weapon. That said I hate having my beard hair getting pulled out 2 hairs at a time. You didn't specifically mention this, but loose stocks contribute to this.
So in terms of stocks I've owned or tried a few. ACS-L, STR, SL, SL-S, LMT SOPMOD, B5 SOPMOD, B5 Enhanced SOPMOD, Vltor EMod, PRS, UBR 2, Troy Battle Axe, A2.
Of all these the Vltor EMod and Magpul SL-S are my top two. I'm still evaluating the UBR 2.
I would not lump the PRS into this category. Because I do not see anyone with a collapsible stock need, using a PRS. It's heavy and non-adjustable. Did I mention it's heavy? I too hated the ACS-L, that stock left me looking like I had the mange it pulled so much of my beard hair out.
If tight stocks are your thing, the tightest stocks I've owned at the B5's and Vltor's. (sorry jstalford! :). My LMT SOPMODs have all been tight, nut unless I can pick one up for $80ish bucks I wouldn't bother, the B5 is close enough definitely worth the $100 bucks (+/-) you save. Good luck.
justin_247
08-07-17, 17:44
I really like my Magpul CTR. I also have an old Vltor Modstock that I'm very happy with. I tried the B5 SOPMOD, but I wasn't very happy with it.
I'm VERY eager to try the new MOE SL and SL-K.
Outlander Systems
08-08-17, 11:33
http://cdn3.volusion.com/j4enh.r2en5/v/vspfiles/photos/Stock%20Only%20M4%20Black%20-%20GEN2-2.jpg
vicious_cb
08-08-17, 15:41
http://cdn3.volusion.com/j4enh.r2en5/v/vspfiles/photos/Stock%20Only%20M4%20Black%20-%20GEN2-2.jpg
Seriously, the fact that this thread has 6 pages makes me think people finger**** their rifle more than they go out and shoot it. Oh hey, all the slop goes away when you properly mount the stock in the shoulder pocket and and lean into the gun...
Seriously, the fact that this thread has 6 pages makes me think people finger**** their rifle more than they go out and shoot it. Oh hey, all the slop goes away when you properly mount the stock in the shoulder pocket and and lean into the gun...
Most people do, and yes it does. Never got the loose fit thing, outside of the beard pulls. That said, I've found improved cheekweld (b5 bravo) to be beneficial with a 1-4, though I'll admit I haven't timed it yet. $50 isn't too much to pay for luxury, even if it is just that, imo.
For the OP
You are very dogmatic with your opinions for someone admittedly uneducated on the AR platform. Anyway... every Magpul CTR ive used on any RE (sample of atleast 20) has locked up tight and is the best all around stock for an M4 rifle. Light,simple great cheek weld... love them. I also like the STR alot. Emod used to be a beard pulling machine... ive found if u let your beard get long enough when u remove your cheek there is enough hair length to allow the stock to unload and release the hair ;-) The PRS stock is meant for magnified optics and mostly prone so your comments are offbase there. You might learn from these "experienced" gentleman next time before just trashing a long list of excellent kit and the manufacturers of that kit. I am testing the UBR 2 and will let you know how it shakes out
Outlander Systems
08-09-17, 06:54
Fact.
Seriously, the fact that this thread has 6 pages makes me think people finger**** their rifle more than they go out and shoot it. Oh hey, all the slop goes away when you properly mount the stock in the shoulder pocket and and lean into the gun...
richardca99
08-09-17, 19:33
Dogmatic? "Opinionated" maybe? Fair. Listen, I like what I like, and I'm not inclined to apologize for it. I may be new to ARs, but rest assured I'm not new to precision shooting, and I'm not ready to compromise. Apparently I'm not alone on this stock thing, eh?
I went with the UBR Gen 2, and it's a bank vault. Exactly what I wanted. I hope you like yours.
For the OP
You are very dogmatic with your opinions for someone admittedly uneducated on the AR platform. Anyway... every Magpul CTR ive used on any RE (sample of atleast 20) has locked up tight and is the best all around stock for an M4 rifle. Light,simple great cheek weld... love them. I also like the STR alot. Emod used to be a beard pulling machine... ive found if u let your beard get long enough when u remove your cheek there is enough hair length to allow the stock to unload and release the hair ;-) The PRS stock is meant for magnified optics and mostly prone so your comments are offbase there. You might learn from these "experienced" gentleman next time before just trashing a long list of excellent kit and the manufacturers of that kit. I am testing the UBR 2 and will let you know how it shakes out
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matthepanther
08-13-17, 11:41
+1 For the BCM. Absolutely no movement on my buffer tube with them. Love them but wish they werent so damn ugly.
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