View Full Version : Chipping Humans: Bellweather of the Beast or Benevolent Breakthrough?
Doc Safari
08-04-17, 09:47
It's starting. Perhaps you heard about this: companies are starting to look at implanting computer chips in their employees.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/wisconsin/articles/2017-07-25/us-company-uses-staff-as-guinea-pigs-for-implanted-chips
A U.S. company is asking its workers to act as guinea pigs for an under-the-skin chip that lets them buy snacks, use office equipment and open doors.
The company, Three Square Market, says the chips are not mandatory. It expects over 50 staffers to get a chip between their thumbs and forefingers at an Aug. 1 "chip party" at the company's River Falls, Wisconsin, offices.
Implants that act like swipe cards are already used by some European companies . They've raised privacy concerns because they can track employee purchases and whereabouts and are harder to ditch than an ID card.
Three Square Market expects the chips to become popular in its business. It provides self-service convenience stores for companies so employees can buy snacks and is a vendor to jails.
Before you know it, the practice will become mandatory for certain high-security jobs, then the government will want everyone chipped, and so on.
Is it leading up to the Mark of the Beast (or just simply a bunch of new problems), or should we embrace it as a welcome technological innovation that may make our lives easier?
Waiting for the "They are the employer, their rules" crowd to chime in.
If you think some Podunk company in Wisconsin just had this brilliant epiphany, you're kidding yourself. This is a trial balloon, undoubtedly funded by someone else.
Outlander Systems
08-04-17, 11:32
****ING RETARDED.
This could have been done via a smartphone app.
If you're dumb enough to believe this *required* implantation of a sub-dermal device, step into my Lunar Property Sales Office for a unique opportunity to own your own private moon parcel.
That said, how many people do you personally know that have DigitalAngel Verichips implanted? None?
Why?
Because it's next-level creeper status.
****ING RETARDED.
This could have been done via a smartphone app.
If you're dumb enough to believe this *required* implantation of a sub-dermal device, step into my Lunar Property Sales Office for a unique opportunity to own your own private moon parcel.
That said, how many people do you personally know that have DigitalAngel Verichips implanted? None?
Why?
Because it's next-level creeper status.
This sums up my position quite nicely! Well said!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC8iQzjKQoU
A U.S. company is asking its workers to act as guinea pigs for an under-the-skin chip that lets them buy snacks, use office equipment and open doors.
The bolded part is another way the globalists are trying to get rid of physical currency.
I have a plastic photo ID with an RFID chip in it that lets me open secure doors and operate office equipment. Don't need an implant thank you very much. The scary part will be when they decide that this shit is mandatory and do it to future generations before they even leave the hospital.
Outlander Systems
08-04-17, 12:53
http://ee.stanford.edu/~jmk/pubs/mobicom.99.pdf
The scary part will be when they decide that this shit is mandatory and do it to future generations before they even leave the hospital.
The technology itself is neutral, the capacity to be used for good exist and the capacity for abuse is too great for me to even consider. But if your average sheep "feels" safer he will do it.
SomeOtherGuy
08-04-17, 14:32
The technology itself is neutral, the capacity to be used for good exist and the capacity for abuse is too great for me to even consider. But if your average sheep "feels" safer he will do it.
Or if it's forced on you in a coercive way. "Oh, you don't HAVE to get a chip, but without one you'll be stuck in the manual processing line with an 8-hour delay. Every... single... time..." That could be for airline travel, banking, food rations in the next depression, whatever.
Not that coercion always works. Some of you may have seen the articles that TSA understaffed on the assumption zillions of people would sign up for "pre-chek" and it didn't work out that way. But nothing is more stubborn than a government bureaucrat frustrated that sheeple aren't being their sheepiest.
It is IMO, the mark of the beast, at some point , the gov't will try to make it mandatory, (remember "if you like your plan, you can keep your plan"?) How'd that turn out? Give in to it and you've just sold your soul..
It is IMO, the mark of the beast, at some point , the gov't will try to make it mandatory, (remember "if you like your plan, you can keep your plan"?) How'd that turn out? Give in to it and you've just sold your soul..
Sorry but I can remember when the UPC was the "mark of the beast" and people were serious when they said it. According to them we've been lost for decades.
Doc Safari
08-04-17, 16:27
Sorry but I can remember when the UPC was the "mark of the beast" and people were serious when they said it. According to them we've been lost for decades.
Point taken, but it IS incrementalism. Just like the gun laws can't start out on DAY ONE with a complete ban, doesn't mean that isn't the ultimate goal.
It doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to realize that this is about controlling the population even if you don't believe the Biblical reference.
used to wonder how some mark could keep me from places or eating or other things such as buying food
but that was 40 years ago before this thinking some tattoo or something could be faked
but all makes more sense now sadly
agree with others it will be like chipping your dog very soon !
OH its a great thing we can put ALL YOUR INFO in it so you wont have to carry your DL license police can easily check your history which will make you safer ! open doors pay for things all your finances will be with you so when you want that new car on credit the dealer just knows the moment you walk in everything about you :) it will be so wonderful
paying taxes will be automatic no more lengthy complex forms !
you wont need to have a answering machine since your communication will be with you and we will be recording everything so you wont have to worry about what did they want again :)
OH I CANT WAIT
Outlander Systems
08-04-17, 17:09
I won't delve into my religious perspective on the matter, but as far as I am concerned this tech gives someone else more power over me than I would receive.
So, yeah. **** 'em. They can stick their microchips where they belong; in cattle.
Point taken, but it IS incrementalism. Just like the gun laws can't start out on DAY ONE with a complete ban, doesn't mean that isn't the ultimate goal.
It doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to realize that this is about controlling the population even if you don't believe the Biblical reference.
No argument there.
A government, no matter how well designed, will always move to usurp the rights of the people for no other reason than the benign belief that government knows best.
I won't delve into my religious perspective on the matter, but as far as I am concerned this tech gives someone else more power over me than I would receive.
So, yeah. **** 'em. They can stick their microchips where they belong; in cattle.You misspelled chattel...
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
Just wait until the military makes it mandatory.... it's coming. I'll never allow one to be implanted in me. The potential for abuse is just too high.
Outlander Systems
08-04-17, 18:14
Pretty much, bro. Prettttty much.
Sticking a full time tracking device in my pocket is one thing, but implantation is a bridge I'm not gonna cross.
You misspelled chattel...
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
I have to unlock electronic doors all day getting around at two different facilities. Implanting an RFID would be convenient compared to the multiple chipped ID cards that I have to carry around. The problem is the lack of standardization between locks. I wouldn't be interested unless one implanted RFID could handle all those doors at both hospitals, plus hotel rooms, paying for groceries, and auto-logging onto work computers. Etc.
I have to unlock electronic doors all day getting around at two different facilities. Implanting an RFID would be convenient compared to the multiple chipped ID cards that I have to carry around. The problem is the lack of standardization between locks. I wouldn't be interested unless one implanted RFID could handle all those doors at both hospitals, plus hotel rooms, paying for groceries, and auto-logging onto work computers. Etc.
Seriously, you have no problem with it? Convenience uber alles? Hey, to each his own but not for me.
BoringGuy45
08-04-17, 18:52
This was a plot point in the Left Behind books: The antichrist decrees that in order to buy or sell anything, a person had to have a microchip injected into their arm that would both track them and act as a built in debit card. And, of course, anyone who got the chip had to get 666 tattooed on their body to show compliance (and those who resisted were put to death).
Make no mistake about it, this is just another attempt at control and micromanaging. Also, though this is supposedly experimental and voluntary, it'll become mandatory sooner or later.
Seriously, you have no problem with it? Convenience uber alles? Hey, to each his own but not for me.
Nah, I have no problem. I'd sign up for it if one RFID chip could do it all, but that kind of standardization is a long way off. Although I supposed it would be preferable if all that stuff could be done from my Apple Watch.
There is really no legitimate reason for implantation of a chip other than the control aspect. Of course it will start with something as benign as convenience to let everyone get used to the idea. Incrementally, additional applications will be added. Hey wouldn't it be convenient if you didn't have to carry your ID or passport when you travelled? Hey wouldn't it be convenient if it was linked to your credit and debit cards? Hey wouldn't it be convenient if you didn't have to fill out a 4473 and wait for a background check when you buy your next firearm? Hey wouldn't it be convenient if anyone who has an NFA item had one so we'd (Government) know where they are? Hey wouldn't it be convenient if we (Government) could GPS locate every single citizen at any time? Don't see any problem with any of this because you're a law abiding citizen and have nothing to hide? I remember seeing another thread here in GD with that same idea posed in response to submitting to a warrantless search of ones home or car.
Keep in mind the old adage about the frog and the pot of water folks. I had a small sticker on a vehicle I used to own years ago that read, "Sure you can trust the government, just ask an Indian".
I have to unlock electronic doors all day getting around at two different facilities. Implanting an RFID would be convenient compared to the multiple chipped ID cards that I have to carry around. The problem is the lack of standardization between locks. I wouldn't be interested unless one implanted RFID could handle all those doors at both hospitals, plus hotel rooms, paying for groceries, and auto-logging onto work computers. Etc.
How about wearing a badge on a lanyard, or an app on your company phone, or even a wearable device on your wrist? All three of my examples can be serialized, tracked and turned in at the end of shift. They can also be instantly locked out if an employee is found unfit for access, although an implant could as well. An implant for your reasons may provide the employee convenience but what other metadata about said employee's habits while on the company dime will be gathered? This can very easily slide into right to work/right to hire issues.
There is really no legitimate reason for implantation of a chip other than the control aspect. Of course it will start with something as benign as convenience to let everyone get used to the idea. Incrementally, additional applications will be added. Hey wouldn't it be convenient if you didn't have to carry your ID or passport when you travelled? Hey wouldn't it be convenient if it was linked to your credit and debit cards? Hey wouldn't it be convenient if you didn't have to fill out a 4473 and wait for a background check when you buy your next firearm? Hey wouldn't it be convenient if anyone who has an NFA item had one so we'd (Government) know where they are? Hey wouldn't it be convenient if we (Government) could GPS locate every single citizen at any time? Don't see any problem with any of this because you're a law abiding citizen and have nothing to hide? I remember seeing another thread here in GD with that same idea posed in response to submitting to a warrantless search of ones home or car.
Keep in mind the old adage about the frog and the pot of water folks. I had a small sticker on a vehicle I used to own years ago that read, "Sure you can trust the government, just ask an Indian".
Hey wouldn't it be convenient if non compliant citizens were instantly on the drone radar? Wouldn't be convenient if the neurotoxin encapsulated in a special enzyme could be triggered when 'dangerous behavior' was exhibited (William Gibson reference there)?
There is really no legitimate reason for implantation of a chip other than the control aspect.
The only legit use I can come up with is for someone at risk of kidnapping such as soldiers serving in the ME and powerful implanted tracking chips that would be useful in that capacity just don't exist yet. Other than that, no reason the new IChip can't be on a wristband like everything else.
Additionally, if it ever is developed and mandated, expect a sizeable black market for "hacked" chips. I know people who will literally dig them out of their arm with a rusty knife to stay off the grid.
The only legit use I can come up with is for someone at risk of kidnapping such as soldiers serving in the ME and powerful implanted tracking chips that would be useful in that capacity just don't exist yet. Other than that, no reason the new IChip can't be on a wristband like everything else.
Additionally, if it ever is developed and mandated, expect a sizeable black market for "hacked" chips. I know people who will literally dig them out of their arm with a rusty knife to stay off the grid.
So the first thing that came to mind when I heard about this whole deal is what overrides, fail safes, intrusion countermeasures are implemented in these devices? Seriously- the people who are pushing this agenda have surely considered the back alley options prior to deploying these devices on a mass scale. I know I would, were I in the position to enforce my will upon my subjects.
The only legit use I can come up with is for someone at risk of kidnapping such as soldiers serving in the ME and powerful implanted tracking chips that would be useful in that capacity just don't exist yet. Other than that, no reason the new IChip can't be on a wristband like everything else.
Additionally, if it ever is developed and mandated, expect a sizeable black market for "hacked" chips. I know people who will literally dig them out of their arm with a rusty knife to stay off the grid.
To bounce off this, the only reason I can come up with implant over worn is the, "Oh, well the chip needs a power source and batteries are too inefficient and wear out." line that I am sure someone will come up with. Change battery once a year like my aimpoint or never, and the lazy fat sheep will go with the never option. Just my thoughts. As far the security argument, since I am sure that will come up, if it is just the wave at sensor to gain access, I can promise you that those who are wanting in bad enough will not have an issue cutting it out or cutting the limb off to get in if they want to.
As far as black market goes. There is already a fair black market for hacked chips and cards out there, as well as a black market for everything else. I knew of a place that if you had a Direct TV set up years ago you could go and get a hacked card that gave you access to all channels, and I do mean all, at least until Direct TV scanned and fried them, at which point go back and get a new one. And that is just the tip of the stuff. Make no mistake that you would see similar things with implanted chips.
Outlander Systems
08-04-17, 20:20
I'm sure, at some point, we'll have to do it because, "the children," or "safety."
Besides, if we don't have anything to hide, we sh-shouldn't have a problem w-with it? R-right, guys?
Besides, if we don't have anything to hide, we sh-shouldn't have a problem w-with it? R-right, guys?
I will counter, if the government expects us to trust them enough to work in our best interests then they should trust us enough to stay the **** out of our lives. You know, trust being a two way street and all.
And just for the sake of getting to quote a favorite song of mine.
"So if ever a man should ask you for your business, or your name,
tell him to go and **** himself, tell his friends to do the same.
Because a man who’d trade his liberty for a safe and dreamless sleep
doesn’t deserve the both of them, and neither shall he keep."
P.S.
No, i ain't yell at you brother. Just in case you think I am. Just making a point. Hope you saw it that way.
How about wearing a badge on a lanyard, or an app on your company phone, or even a wearable device on your wrist? All three of my examples can be serialized, tracked and turned in at the end of shift. They can also be instantly locked out if an employee is found unfit for access, although an implant could as well. An implant for your reasons may provide the employee convenience but what other metadata about said employee's habits while on the company dime will be gathered? This can very easily slide into right to work/right to hire issues.
I already have all that stuff - badge on a lanyard, wearable device (Vocera). They just set up my ID badge so I can now buy coffee and sandwiches at the Caribou Coffee in the lobby. Sometimes I forget my ID badge and lock myself out of the lounge or the clinic. An implanted RFID would be convenient.
Anyway, same metadata is obtained from the passive RFID chip in my ID badge as the passive RFID that they'd implant in my hand. What do you think the difference is?
I'm no tinfoil hat wearing alarmist but I was born in the 20th century (1964) and remember many of the technological gadgets we now use every single day and take for granted being nothing more than science fiction and the stuff of fantasy when I was a kid. The idea of having a device I could hold in my hand when I was 12 years old and make phone calls with, find the solutions to complex mathematical problems with, and find data on nearly any subject I can imagine within seconds was as outlandish an idea then as the thought of human beings travelling out of our solar system is now. I can remember calculators being a wonder when they couldn't compute an answer past 999,999. Based on what has been acomplished technologically by mankind over the past 4 decades I really can't imagine what can be achieved in the next 4 decades. Therefore I don't find it all that farfetched to imagine what is technologically feasible. Is it actually impossible to accelerate to the speed of light or has the method to do so just not yet been discovered?
I already have all that stuff - badge on a lanyard, wearable device (Vocera). They just set up my ID badge so I can now buy coffee and sandwiches at the Caribou Coffee in the lobby. Sometimes I forget my ID badge and lock myself out of the lounge or the clinic. An implanted RFID would be convenient.
Anyway, same metadata is obtained from the passive RFID chip in my ID badge as the passive RFID that they'd implant in my hand. What do you think the difference is?
In repsonse to your last line- the difference is the non-implanted devices get locked away in a secure vault at the end of shift. Period. Not calling you out as an indivual, but the 'forgotten badge' is a training issue. Period. When I was active, with a clearance to seriosuly scary secret stuff, we had the repercussions of negligent behavior spelled out in no uncertain terms. You either take an active role in shepdherding your assigned duties (and behaviors/habits expected of a trusted/vetted person) or you don't. Forgetting the badge, losing/misplacing it, passing it to Joe Schmoe to cover while you take an unrecorded break is unacceptable. These behaviors are indicative of people who don't take their roles seriously. Sadly, in the wake of Snowden, transgender Manning and Reality Winner these personality types are acceptable these days. Look at the consequences. So, in your example, the chip cannot be misplaced, forgotten, leant out or stolen- a winning scenario in a way. But fostered with that situation is a new acceptable complacency representing a complete disregard for the very purpose of being cleared for resticted access. Maybe you as a surgeon arent getting into vaults with some seriously well-guarded intel that, if leaked, will hurt our collective best interests FOR GENERATIONS but getting chipped 'as convenience' just doesnt fly for me. To further expound on implants versus wearables, what stops the smart devices in your home from continuing the meatada collection efforts? chips themselves arent the issue- its who controls them and the ulterior motives/secret agenda of the people demanding their usage that bothers me. How is any of this debate NOT parrotting the concerns of the founding fathers re: over reaching government/threats to invidualism and personal sovereignty?
I already have all that stuff - badge on a lanyard, wearable device (Vocera). They just set up my ID badge so I can now buy coffee and sandwiches at the Caribou Coffee in the lobby. Sometimes I forget my ID badge and lock myself out of the lounge or the clinic. An implanted RFID would be convenient.
Anyway, same metadata is obtained from the passive RFID chip in my ID badge as the passive RFID that they'd implant in my hand. What do you think the difference is?
The difference is that if the need ever arises, you can ditch the card vs. having to dig the implant out to discard it.
Outlander Systems
08-04-17, 21:39
Agreed completely.
I will counter, if the government expects us to trust them enough to work in our best interests then they should trust us enough to stay the **** out of our lives. You know, trust being a two way street and all.
And just for the sake of getting to quote a favorite song of mine.
"So if ever a man should ask you for your business, or your name,
tell him to go and **** himself, tell his friends to do the same.
Because a man who’d trade his liberty for a safe and dreamless sleep
doesn’t deserve the both of them, and neither shall he keep."
P.S.
No, i ain't yell at you brother. Just in case you think I am. Just making a point. Hope you saw it that way.
Strange, but I read the title "chipping humans" and immediately thought of Solyent Green.
In repsonse to your last line- the difference is the non-implanted devices get locked away in a secure vault at the end of shift. Period. Not calling you out as an indivual, but the 'forgotten badge' is a training issue. Period. When I was active, with a clearance to seriosuly scary secret stuff, we had the repercussions of negligent behavior spelled out in no uncertain terms. You either take an active role in shepdherding your assigned duties (and behaviors/habits expected of a trusted/vetted person) or you don't. Forgetting the badge, losing/misplacing it, passing it to Joe Schmoe to cover while you take an unrecorded break is unacceptable. These behaviors are indicative of people who don't take their roles seriously. Sadly, in the wake of Snowden, transgender Manning and Reality Winner these personality types are acceptable these days. Look at the consequences. So, in your example, the chip cannot be misplaced, forgotten, leant out or stolen- a winning scenario in a way. But fostered with that situation is a new acceptable complacency representing a complete disregard for the very purpose of being cleared for resticted access. Maybe you as a surgeon arent getting into vaults with some seriously well-guarded intel that, if leaked, will hurt our collective best interests FOR GENERATIONS but getting chipped 'as convenience' just doesnt fly for me. To further expound on implants versus wearables, what stops the smart devices in your home from continuing the meatada collection efforts? chips themselves arent the issue- its who controls them and the ulterior motives/secret agenda of the people demanding their usage that bothers me. How is any of this debate NOT parrotting the concerns of the founding fathers re: over reaching government/threats to invidualism and personal sovereignty?
Good lord.
I simply cannot muster the same level of paranoia that is driving you, over an RFID tag that has substantially less than a 1 meter range.
I have to unlock electronic doors all day getting around at two different facilities. Implanting an RFID would be convenient compared to the multiple chipped ID cards that I have to carry around. The problem is the lack of standardization between locks. I wouldn't be interested unless one implanted RFID could handle all those doors at both hospitals, plus hotel rooms, paying for groceries, and auto-logging onto work computers. Etc.
SO they cant make a single card work for you but you want the same techs to put a chip in you :) maybe let them make a tiny button you put on or a smal braclet necklace that does anything and everything in the hospital first ;)
they cant even figure out locks but hey let em inject me with something that stays in me :)
As a retailer I will be required to have a EMV compliant card scanning system in place, or be liable for any fraudulent transaction. So all credit cards will have to have a chip.
So the first thing that came to mind when I heard about this whole deal is what overrides, fail safes, intrusion countermeasures are implemented in these devices? Seriously- the people who are pushing this agenda have surely considered the back alley options prior to deploying these devices on a mass scale. I know I would, were I in the position to enforce my will upon my subjects.
Just like drugs, it will be illegal to remove, modify or otherwise alter the performance of the Ichip. And just like everything else, responsible people will have too much to lose by screwing around and taking a felony rap and career felons will simply have them removed.
The tipping point is always when responsible people no longer have good jobs, investments, homes, cars and a family to provide for and the incentive to secure and protect those things no longer exists. All it took in the 1930s was an economic depression to make heroes out of murderers and bank robbers, and that is because banks were foreclosing on family farms and homes and a large segment of the former "working class" no longer had most of those things and they could identify more with a guy like Dillinger than they could with the banks.
And THAT is a big reason for the NFA. It's not because Bonnie and Clyde used machine guns, it's because many people were worried about what those former "working class" Americans might do with a machine gun if they had lost everything else.
Anyway, same metadata is obtained from the passive RFID chip in my ID badge as the passive RFID that they'd implant in my hand. What do you think the difference is?
The difference is personal choice, and the fact that we still have it. If you are good to go with a convenience chip, then go ahead. Plenty of people live in gated communities where they have to identify themselves before they can go home.
As for me, I remember a time when we used to lock up criminals behind secured walls with guards and the rest of us could just come and go as we pleased and the only time we had to produce identification was if we were driving and committed some kind of traffic infraction.
I'm not a tin foil alarmist who see's the devil at work, but I'm a free man who has no need for an Ichip and I don't see myself changing my mind at any future date.
Moose-Knuckle
08-05-17, 05:12
This tech has been in development for literally decades.
All things happen in small incremental stages; "crawl, walk, run . . ."
EVERYone has an RFID in their pet. Next will be their kids, and as demonstrated here many will want the latest greatest whizbang tech for ease and convenience.
The systems have been developed that will allow people to walk into a store pick out what they want and walk out with out ever having to go to a register and wait in a line. Sensors at the exists will read the individual RFIDs in the products which are already in place and used for inventory control by many companies and no you won't ever see these tags and the account you have associated with your chip will automatically be charged for the goods. That's just one example but IMHO the biggest reason why many people will gladly allow themselves to be implanted.
This commercial is eleven years old.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eob532iEpqk
Such tech also has the potential to be weaponized as 1993's Fortress taught us where inmates are implanted with a device that can be used to employ pain for compliance or even death via a small explosive charge.
The devices could also be stolen and compromised. In Minority Report one could pay for an "eye job" where they would get some poor bastards eyes as everything in that future setting revolved around retina scans for identification and commerce.
If it comes down to it, in the future no one will be car jacking and driving people to the ATM they'll just start lopping implanted body parts off.
As for the Book of Revelations "mark of the beast" interpretation . . .
Revelations Chapter 13 Verses 16-18:
16And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark — the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is six hundred sixty-six.…
Outlander Systems
08-05-17, 06:26
Winning.
The difference is personal choice, and the fact that we still have it. If you are good to go with a convenience chip, then go ahead. Plenty of people live in gated communities where they have to identify themselves before they can go home.
As for me, I remember a time when we used to lock up criminals behind secured walls with guards and the rest of us could just come and go as we pleased and the only time we had to produce identification was if we were driving and committed some kind of traffic infraction.
I'm not a tin foil alarmist who see's the devil at work, but I'm a free man who has no need for an Ichip and I don't see myself changing my mind at any future date.
SO they cant make a single card work for you but you want the same techs to put a chip in you :) maybe let them make a tiny button you put on or a smal braclet necklace that does anything and everything in the hospital first ;)
they cant even figure out locks but hey let em inject me with something that stays in me :)
No....I said "I wouldn't be interested unless one implanted RFID could handle all those doors at both hospitals, plus hotel rooms, paying for groceries, and auto-logging onto work computers. Etc."
I also said...."I'd sign up for it if one RFID chip could do it all, but that kind of standardization is a long way off. Although I supposed it would be preferable if all that stuff could be done from my Apple Watch."
The difference is personal choice, and the fact that we still have it.
Did I miss the part where the company referenced in the OP isn't giving their employees a choice regarding implantation of a passive RFID chip?
Did I miss the part where the company referenced in the OP isn't giving their employees a choice regarding implantation of a passive RFID chip?
To be fair, I think he is alluding to the ever-creeping "crawl/walk/run" paradigm that technology has in our society and will have in the future. It may not occur now or next year, but give it a decade or two and many employers will make it mandatory. Then of course there will be those who shrug it off saying "Their job, their rules. Don't like it? Work somewhere else." (which I fully expected someone to have said already in this thread)
No, I'll not be chipped EVER. I'm old enough that in about a decade I'll be hitting the eject button and retiring, so in all likelihood it won't involve me, at least as far as employment is concerned.
As someone earlier mentioned, think of all the gizmos we have now that were the stuff of science fiction when we were kids. Now that same stuff is run-of-the-mill, everyday technology readily available.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you! ;)
To be fair, I think he is alluding to the ever-creeping "crawl/walk/run" paradigm that technology has in our society and will have in the future. It may not occur now or next year, but give it a decade or two and many employers will make it mandatory. Then of course there will be those who shrug it off saying "Their job, their rules. Don't like it? Work somewhere else." (which I fully expected someone to have said already in this thread)
I think the paranoia comes in when we make the cognitive leap that this chipping will
A) become mandatory
B) allow worldwide tracking from an orbiting satellite (black satellite, of course)
Certainly, if we're making such cognitive leaps, we should also postulate the other components of this science fiction paradigm, including mind control, and certainly the ability to explode that chip remotely from anywhere in the world. I mean, we're postulating population surveillance and control in this fantasy, right? Might as well go the full monte.
For the time being, and certainly into the future, be more concerned about your cell phone than a passive RFID chip with a 1 meter range. By the time RFID chipping becomes mandatory, it will be rendered moot by remote facial recognition and/or iris scanning, both of which are hitting the mainstream far, far in advance of implanted chips. Review the anticipated features in the iPhone 8, coming to a black helicopter squadron near you by spring of 2018.
Outlander Systems
08-05-17, 08:39
You asked for full monte...I give you, FULL MONTE:
https://www.google.com/patents/US6506148
... including mind control...Might as well go the full monte.
For the time being, and certainly into the future, be more concerned about your cell phone than a passive RFID chip with a 1 meter range. By the time RFID chipping becomes mandatory, it will be rendered moot by remote facial recognition and/or iris scanning, both of which are hitting the mainstream far, far in advance of implanted chips. Review the anticipated features in the iPhone 8, coming to a black helicopter squadron near you by spring of 2018.
Oh all of those are indeed potential threats to privacy, both now and in the future. One man's "cognitive leaps" are another man's certainty for the future. Chips, phones, cards. implants, etc. are all evolving into privacy violating devices. It's not paranoia, it's an up-and-coming facet of our future.
You are a man of science. You are on M4C, so no doubt share many of the views of members here. Certainly you can see the potential misuse, right?
One blast from the past comes to mind: remember the movie "Enemy of the State"? It's gotta be damn near 20 years old. Most of the technology shown on that movie was in existence then and ALL of it is by now. It was an ominous view into our future. Hell, just look at what the NSA has the ability (and blessing) to monitor. There has even been a DoJ memo to prosecutors on "alternate construction" of criminal cases where the evidence was gathered by NSA snooping but didn't involve national security like it is supposed to, so they have to basically lie about how they obtained said evidence so a judge won't throw it out.
Sorry, I'm not a trusting individual, ESPECIALLY of any .gov entity.
Control. In the end, it's always about control.
Oh all of those are indeed potential threats to privacy, both now and in the future. One man's "cognitive leaps" are another man's certainty for the future. Chips, phones, cards. implants, etc. are all evolving into privacy violating devices. It's not paranoia, it's an up-and-coming facet of our future.
You are a man of science. You are on M4C, so no doubt share many of the views of members here. Certainly you can see the potential misuse, right?
One blast from the past comes to mind: remember the movie "Enemy of the State"? It's gotta be damn near 20 years old. Most of the technology shown on that movie was in existence then and ALL of it is by now. It was an ominous view into our future. Hell, just look at what the NSA has the ability (and blessing) to monitor. There has even been a DoJ memo to prosecutors on "alternate construction" of criminal cases where the evidence was gathered by NSA snooping but didn't involve national security like it is supposed to, so they have to basically lie about how they obtained said evidence so a judge won't throw it out.
Sorry, I'm not a trusting individual, ESPECIALLY of any .gov entity.
Yes. There is a massive amount of technology, and increasing all the time, that has the capability of limiting our privacy. Everything from cellphones to Google to the NSA. In that pantheon of surveillance technology - some of which we know, much of which we likely don't - implantable passive RFID chips are a mere microcosm and likely to remain very low on the list of things to worry about if one is inclined toward tinfoil-lined headgear. IMHO, its capacity for convenience vastly exceeds its capacity for privacy invasion, especially by comparison to other existing and future modalities. I am far more worried about the dossier that GOOGLE has on me than anything that RFID tracking could ever provide.
The tipping point is always when responsible people no longer have good jobs, investments, homes, cars and a family to provide for and the incentive to secure and protect those things no longer exists. All it took in the 1930s was an economic depression to make heroes out of murderers and bank robbers, and that is because banks were foreclosing on family farms and homes and a large segment of the former "working class" no longer had most of those things and they could identify more with a guy like Dillinger than they could with the banks.
And THAT is a big reason for the NFA. It's not because Bonnie and Clyde used machine guns, it's because many people were worried about what those former "working class" Americans might do with a machine gun if they had lost everything else.
ONE MORE TIME FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!
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Averageman
08-05-17, 10:19
We recently totally revamped the way internet security is done at my company. So far the success rate isn't that impressive.
If 100% of your people need a new system and 20% are left out because of errors in the implementation of that new system, what do we do now? It's not a card, it isn't a key fob, it's a damn chip in your arm.
Do computers not allow you access to secure networks? Do doors not open for you? Heaven forbid you cannot get a Coke and a bag of chips when you go on break.
In this rush to chip employees has anyone put some real thought in to the long reaching effects of advancing technologies?
So if Bill Gates got a chip to work in his own office, to open his own doors, to access his own networks, to tweak his own ideas, does he need a new chip in ten months?
There are simply too many ways to do this without implementing intrusive objects that will be outdated in months. The objective simply doesn't pass the smell test.
Well, that is if we are being told the truth about the objective.
Did I miss the part where the company referenced in the OP isn't giving their employees a choice regarding implantation of a passive RFID chip?It's not so much about it being mandatory by decree from the government. It's about society deciding that this is a good idea and it becomes mandatory by default because without it you'll be left on the outside looking in.
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We recently totally revamped the way internet security is done at my company. So far the success rate isn't that impressive.
If 100% of your people need a new system and 20% are left out because of errors in the implementation of that new system, what do we do now? It's not a card, it isn't a key fob, it's a damn chip in your arm.
Do computers not allow you access to secure networks? Do doors not open for you? Heaven forbid you cannot get a Coke and a bag of chips when you go on break.
In this rush to chip employees has anyone put some real thought in to the long reaching effects of advancing technologies?
So if Bill Gates got a chip to work in his own office, to open his own doors, to access his own networks, to tweak his own ideas, does he need a new chip in ten months?
There are simply too many ways to do this without implementing intrusive objects that will be outdated in months. The objective simply doesn't pass the smell test.
Well, that is if we are being told the truth about the objective.
As long as the chipping is only one avenue of electronic access, opted for by the individual if they desire that level of convenience in lieu of badges or tokens, I think it smells just fine. And that's all the evidence we have in front off us ATM. I take it that you never use online search engines, don't shop at Amazon, and don't carry a smart phone? Never post anything online? Especially on politically controversial discussion forums, like, say...gun forums?
It's not so much about it being mandatory by decree from the government. It's about society deciding that this is a good idea and it becomes mandatory by default because without it you'll be left on the outside looking in.
Yeah. That's what I meant by "cognitive leap".
Averageman
08-05-17, 10:40
I'm saying the chip is fine, implanting it isn't.
Convenience being sometimes fashionable upwardly mobile young employee's will be happy to have it in their body. it might even turn in to the new nose or tongue ring and become a trend.
As a grumpy old fart who spent three hours with the fat, smelly guy at IT this week, the guy who still can't get things to work for me. Please just give me a phone app and a chipped ID card.
I'm saying the chip is fine, implanting it isn't.
Convenience being sometimes fashionable upwardly mobile young employee's will be happy to have it in their body. it might even turn in to the new nose or tongue ring and become a trend.
As a grumpy old fart who spent three hours with the fat, smelly guy at IT this week, the guy who still can't get things to work for me. Please just give me a phone app and a chipped ID card.
That's where we disconnect, despite my own hard-earned status as a grumpy old fart who similarly struggles with IT on a regular basis. I see no difference between an RFID in my wallet, clipped to my pocket, on my iPhone, or implanted in the web space of my hand.
That's where we disconnect, despite my own hard-earned status as a grumpy old fart who similarly struggles with IT on a regular basis. I see no difference between an RFID in my wallet, clipped to my pocket, on my iPhone, or implanted in the web space of my hand.
Well, until we get removable hands so we can leave the chip behind for whatever reason we feel like then I personally will pass! You know, for an "off the grid" moment. :rolleyes:
The technology itself is neutral, the capacity to be used for good exist and the capacity for abuse is too great for me to even consider. But if your average sheep "feels" safer he will do it.
Per usual, there's potential benefits from this tech (my dogged is chipped), but the Orwellian overtones are undeniable that's for sure. The potential for abuse is staggering and may be viewed as "for your own good" by a totalitarian government, but that's a long ass leap to make
I can't imagine this comes as a surprise to anyone even remotely up to date on tech trends as this was a when, not if event, and will become part of the background tech, like it or not. I don't see, if ever, it being something the gubment makes mandatory and the sheeple line up for in our life time.
Per usual, there's potential benefits from this tech (my dogged is chipped), but the Orwellian overtones are undeniable that's for sure. The potential for abuse is staggering and may be viewed as "for your own good" by a totalitarian government.
And in the end, that's what it'll come down to..
Well, until we get removable hands so we can leave the chip behind for whatever reason we feel like then I personally will pass! You know, for an "off the grid" moment. :rolleyes:
I get it...but how does a passive RFID chip put you "on the grid"?
Per usual, there's potential benefits from this tech (my dogged is chipped), but the Orwellian overtones are undeniable that's for sure. The potential for abuse is staggering and may be viewed as "for your own good" by a totalitarian government, but that's a long ass leap to make
How would "they" abuse your dog's chip? Is you dog "on the grid"? Could "they" put him "on the grid"?
And in the end, that's what it'll come down to..
In the end, everything comes to an end :big_boss:
How would "they" abuse your dog's chip?
If I was concerned about my dogs chip I wouldn't have had him chipped. Hence, I see the potential value in the tech. There's been ongoing discussion and interest in having children chipped for years, but in terms of actually finding and tracking them say via GPS using a chip, that tech does not exist. Smallest I'm away of is something that attaches to their belt:
http://observer.com/2015/03/can-we-microchip-our-kids-to-prevent-kidnapping/
I'm not arguing the potential moral/ethical pros/cons of that tech per se. I don't think I could bring myself to chip my kid if I had one.
I get it...but how does a passive RFID chip put you "on the grid"?All it takes is a satellite That scans the ground.
Also who says its passive.k
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All it takes is a satellite That scans the ground.
Just like on TV, you mean? Uh...no.
Also who says its passive.k
The big-ass battery (relatively) on an active RFID kind of gives it away, along with a housing big enough to hide the necessarily large antenna. That might get you 200 - 300 feet of range.
My pup is pissed, it took me three incisions to get the chip out. Any tips on getting blood out of carpet?
Actually, Reno is staying chipped, but I'm not going to have one implanted. Maybe my kids will have me chipped if I walk away from the home too many times, but currently it is not on my radar.
Did I miss the part where the company referenced in the OP isn't giving their employees a choice regarding implantation of a passive RFID chip?
You asked what is the difference and I simply explained that it is still a choice.
My pup is pissed, it took me three incisions to get the chip out. Any tips on getting blood out of carpet?
Actually, Reno is staying chipped, but I'm not going to have one implanted. Maybe my kids will have me chipped if I walk away from the home too many times, but currently it is not on my radar.
You realize his chip is recording everything you say and think right?
You realize his chip is recording everything you say and think right?
Yep. It has a 2 terabyte memory with 2,147,483,647 kilobytes free based on my current thoughts.
I know tech to a scary point enough I turned down some insane jobs and got out of that side of things
I like what I do now but still play around
the scariest thing at the current moment is cell phones and smart appliances :)
now something to think about 50 years ago a room of computers was not as good as your phone in 50 years that chip will be stronger than your phone
the other stuff around you will be that much further ahead
or use 25 years ? for phone comparison to chip
but that all said the chip alone will not be the issue and they read further than you think :) but it will be all the stuff around it and the current push for wifi every single place that is inhabitted
also your dog chip and the ones in people are nothing alike ? its like a WWII dog tag in your dog :) very very basic
your phone is #1 offender NOW and will stay that way and get worse :)
everyone elses and every building and every place and your car and so on will all be reading that chip if it happens and so on
how many things are mandatory now in our society when you think about it !! a chip for your own benefit of course will be a easy to push onto people but of course some will resist but most will acept it cause they do not want to break the law
again I am not worried about the chip yet I am about phones and smart appliances and ironic some actually pay $$ to put a device in the home that listens to them full time ? hahahahahahha and every single large company has been caught sending back data and just like a politiican lying about the truth or sorry I mis spoke etc.. put some outbound firewalls up and sniff every packet going out of your house with a smart appliances on seems harmless ?
that said I use gmail ? they are not doing the same idiocy as they were but the pros outweigh the cons for me with my business and they keep sweetening the pot to keep me in but its just email ? its a bit like saying I draw the curtains ? like that is going to stop people from knowing whats going on :)
that all said I do not think some chip to open doors is what will happen it will be much different than we think and something we wont be able to easily take out of our system if IF they do that
obama care is awesome ! that is why all the politicians have it :)
Outlander Systems
08-05-17, 15:42
That's not entirely true.
The technical hurdles of long-distance reading aren't insurmountable.
Direct-readung via the satellite itself is completely unnecessary, and would be impractical anyway.
The same techniques used to hack NFC devices (extremely easy), apply to RFID.
As with any attack, it's easiest to go for the low hanging fruit. If there was a particular clientele, so-to-speak, that a malicious actor wanted to obtain information on, I can think of several seemingly innocuous ways to scoop up their "safe" implanted data.
Once the information on the device was read and stored, the malicious actor could easily transmit the data to a satellite on a handheld radio working on 5 Watts or less.
A series of readers, run off of solar power, and disguised as utility boxes could scoop up individual data 24/7 in a given area, periodically doing automatic file uploads at satellite passovers.
Considering that the above scenario is, budgetwise, something that is within the reach of any schlep making minimum wage, and having ill intent, I personally would not rule out someone with deep enough pockets to scale the system for a larger area pretty easily.
Since it wouldn't defy the laws of physics, it's possible/probable that it can be done, will be done, or has been done.
Sub-dermal chips offer no security enhancement whatsoever, ESPECIALLY if they operate wirelessly.
That might get you 200 - 300 feet of range.
Just like on TV, you mean? Uh...no.
The big-ass battery (relatively) on an active RFID kind of gives it away, along with a housing big enough to hide the necessarily large antenna. That might get you 200 - 300 feet of range.
With getting into RF physics, no battery is involved... They are powered by saturating them with a magnetic field (or Radio in some cases... Technically still an electromagnetic field)
The power req'd to trigger it and the signal it returns when queried goes up exponentially with distance. Sats don't have enough power to activate it, and in no way can the chip create a strong enough signal to make it to the satellite.
The range is intentionally very short. But for EMF and security reasons. You don't want the chip in the guy next to you to go off at the same time.
Likewise, current chips are very difficult to clone. Secure ones don't return an ID, they are presented with a challenge number (big) and have to calculate an answer (also big). These functions are essentially one way functions, virtually impossible to factor based on snooping.
Simple rfid does not need that, like for a grocery item. It's the UPC, no need to secure it.
But most secure stuff now requires two factor authentication... Something you have (the token) and something you know.
In many buildings the use of a pin+ token can be enabled for more secure areas.
The big issue is exactly what hmac is concerned about. Different standards/systems.
All that said, anyone who uses a cellphone newer than about 2000, a car newer than about 2010, etc is already way more violated than you realize.
If they want to track you, you'll be tracked and never know. Just like your unguessable password... If they can't guess it and decide they really want it, no worries... Just put a keylogger chip in your keyboard or mouse.
The biggest risk we face is stupid hacks like the recent OPM, Verizon, various credit card companies, etc. Your secrets will be lost via negligence or for convenience.
The biggest risk we face is stupid hacks like the recent OPM, Verizon, various credit card companies, etc. Your secrets will be lost via negligence or for convenience.
Per usual, the human factor the failure point.
The same techniques used to hack NFC devices (extremely easy), apply to RFID.
As with any attack, it's easiest to go for the low hanging fruit. If there was a particular clientele, so-to-speak, that a malicious actor wanted to obtain information on, I can think of several seemingly innocuous ways to scoop up their "safe" implanted data.
Once the information on the device was read and stored, the malicious actor could easily transmit the data to a satellite on a handheld radio working on 5 Watts or less.
All technically accurate. But modern security is designed to survive snooping/eavesdropping.
Snooping one or a dozen or a thousand challenge/response pairs does not make it easier to brute force crack it. (Another attribute of "modern" ciphers)
Brute Force attacks are possible, but depending on key length, with a good cipher are virtually impossible to crack, and will be for some time.
Even for the NSA, who can crack shorter keys, it takes enough resources that you'd need to be hard on their radar. And if you are, you have bigger issues to worry about than your chip.
All that said, the gov is very bad at keeping secrets. All of the above assumes proper implementation and no backdoor ciphers.
One other thing... A modern cipher has to withstand knowing the 1 way function. So even if it leaks or is published it is not easier to break.
But don't worry Outlander, I'm with you... Don't want a chip
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In the end, everything comes to an end :big_boss:
Point being?
Point being?
As all things end, I don't find "in the end" a terribly useful term in this context.
Crypto math for laymen:
The public key that the door sends is 3 (a prime number). And the secret key in the chip is 5. And the cipher is the two multiplied, so the chip answers 15.
Easy, we can do it in our head. 15/3=5 (factoring, from your grade school math days)
Now make those keys extremely long... 100+ digits. And still prime numbers. Very hard and expensive to factor with the most powerful computers. Even knowing one key and the response.
Now use a tricky math function that is easy one way, but extremely difficult the other. It becomes orders of magnitude harder.
This is how most modern crypto works. On the web, the public key is often referred to as a certificate.
Your credit card with a gold chip works similarly as well.
They, like RFID can hold data. But they both also now do the math for the key crypto. And the data is encrypted with those keys.
Most new chips are write only. You can put unencrypted data on to them. But they have no provision to read it out except as encrypted or using a public key exchange type approach.
Way more than most want to know. But if you want to speculate, at least do it in the real risk areas. They are not like barcodes in most cases.
The real risk is as Will summarized... Human
Which is why all the major key escrow ciphers (vchip, etc) with gov mandated backdoors have been cracked. Like 15 different gov ciphers. This is why apple, Google, others refuse to put gov backdoors in.
Even if only the NSA knew. Remember where the source of the most recent malware came from... An NSA leak!
As all things end, I don't find "in the end" a terribly useful term in this context.
True, I was in a hurry.. but the point remains, chipping of humans is something that WILL be abused. Going along with it, is the first mistake.
Moose-Knuckle
08-06-17, 05:06
For those that have been asleep at the wheel these articles are ten years old now . . .
Chip Implants Linked to Animal Tumors
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/08/AR2007090800997_pf.html
STUDY: RFID IMPLANTS COULD CAUSE CANCER
https://www.wired.com/2007/09/study-rfid-impl/
Animal RFID Chip Implants Linked to Cancer
http://www.rfidjournal.com/articles/view?6817
RFID Chips Linked to Fast-Growing Cancer
http://www.dailytech.com/RFID+Chips+Linked+to+FastGrowing+Cancer/article8796.htm
For those that have been asleep at the wheel these articles are ten years old now . . .
Chip Implants Linked to Animal Tumors
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/08/AR2007090800997_pf.html
STUDY: RFID IMPLANTS COULD CAUSE CANCER
https://www.wired.com/2007/09/study-rfid-impl/
Animal RFID Chip Implants Linked to Cancer
http://www.rfidjournal.com/articles/view?6817
RFID Chips Linked to Fast-Growing Cancer
http://www.dailytech.com/RFID+Chips+Linked+to+FastGrowing+Cancer/article8796.htm
The only conclusion to draw from those 10 year old magazine articles is that one might think twice about chipping one's pet mouse. Nothing of the kind has been observed in dogs or humans. A variety of electronic devices have been implanted in humans for over 50 years with no such observed results. Same is true of RFID's in millions of dogs over the last 20 years. Over the last 20 years, there are no studies that support the notion that RFID tags, implanted or carried, pose any kind of health risk whatsoever. Just magazine articles. Over a similar time period, there are studies that support the notion that you are at far more risk of cancer from your cell phone.
The only conclusion to draw from those 10 year old magazine articles is that one might think twice about chipping one's pet mouse. Nothing of the kind has been observed in dogs or humans. A variety of electronic devices have been implanted in humans for over 50 years with no such observed results. Same is true of RFID's in millions of dogs over the last 20 years. Over the last 20 years, there are no studies that support the notion that RFID tags, implanted or carried, pose any kind of health risk whatsoever. Just magazine articles. Over a similar time period, there are studies that support the notion that you are at far more risk of cancer from your cell phone.
You ain't lying there! I predict a wave of cancers unique to where one carries a cell phone: testicular/ovarian (front pocket), brain (for those that live with the phone to their ear), hip/bone (back pocket), etc. I don't think that is an exaggeration either.
You ain't lying there! I predict a wave of cancers unique to where one carries a cell phone: testicular/ovarian (front pocket), brain (for those that live with the phone to their ear), hip/bone (back pocket), etc. I don't think that is an exaggeration either.
Yes. I though I'd better mention it so that we can keep such risks in context for those who might have been asleep for the last 10 years...;). The data is sketchy at best, and not conclusive, but still better than anything demonstrating a risk from implantable low-power RF devices like RFID tags.
I won't let them put a "smart" electric meter on my house. Implanting stuff inside me? No thank you.
I hope that when the peer pressure tactics come, enough people will refuse and put a stop to it.
Necessity being the mother of invention and all, I'm just saying that when the government decides upon a need for something it will always find a method to satisfy that need. Perhaps there is no way at the moment to abuse an implanted RFID chip to the degree it would be an intrusion on privacy. As mentioned before, there are plenty of examples of common use technology we all use every day that weren't even thought of 2-3 decades ago. Look at this from the same perspective you look at gun control legislation which has all been done incrementally. This is another thing that can creep up on everyone without it really being thought of. Is it all that difficult to imagine needing an implanted RFID chip in order to start your own vehicle? Remember that driving is considered a privilege and not a right. The list of things for which a chip could be mandated is nearly endless. Is it necessary and if so why? It really isn't difficult to use your imagination to come up with enough ways RFID technology could be abused at the present time to be against it.
You ain't lying there! I predict a wave of cancers unique to where one carries a cell phone: testicular/ovarian (front pocket), brain (for those that live with the phone to their ear), hip/bone (back pocket), etc. I don't think that is an exaggeration either.
Long ago I had a trooper buddy tell me that he noticed when he was running his MR-7 radar antenna inside the car, essentially aimed over his left shoulder, that it would help clear up his colds. He switched to running the antenna outside the car. (I don't know if there was anything to it)
Long ago I had a trooper buddy tell me that he noticed when he was running his MR-7 radar antenna inside the car, essentially aimed over his left shoulder, that it would help clear up his colds. He switched to running the antenna outside the car. (I don't know if there was anything to it)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8213849
Am J Ind Med. 1993 Aug;24(2):231-3.
Cluster of testicular cancer in police officers exposed to hand-held radar.
Davis RL1, Mostofi FK.
Author information
Abstract
Within a cohort of 340 police officers, six incident cases of testicular cancer occurred between 1979 and 1991 (O/E 6.9; p < 0.001, Poisson distribution). Occupational use of hand-held radar was the only shared risk factor among all six officers, and all routinely held the radar gun directly in close proximity to their testicles. Health effects of occupational radar use have not been widely studied, and further research into a possible association with testicular cancer is warranted.
PMID:
8213849
[Indexed for MEDLINE]
Hmac -
My father died, at age 37, in late 1971, due to several types of cancer.
The previous year he had been working most of his free evenings on a building project immediately adjacent to an large transformer station, mostly within 20 feet of the main transformer.
I've always believed that contributed to his death.
I had a job after school and weekends, so my exposure was much less.
I'm a believer in staying away from transformers and heavy current transmission lines.
Hmac -
My father died, at age 37, in late 1971, due to several types of cancer.
The previous year he had been working most of his free evenings on a building project immediately adjacent to an large transformer station, mostly within 20 feet of the main transformer.
I've always believed that contributed to his death.
I had a job after school and weekends, so my exposure was much less.
I'm a believer in staying away from transformers and heavy current transmission lines.
For decades there's been suspicion that people living close to high power lines have higher rates of some cancers, and there's been cancer clusters found, but the evidence/data "is sketchy at best, and not conclusive" as HMAC said of phones.
Outlander Systems
08-06-17, 16:22
Not surprised in the least bit.
I don't even like being around anything north of 500 MHz, let alone anything squirting out an RF laser beam at 10,000 Million, not a typo, cycles per second. ****. That.
The eyes and the male ballsackius are particularly susceptible to RF damage.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8213849
Am J Ind Med. 1993 Aug;24(2):231-3.
Cluster of testicular cancer in police officers exposed to hand-held radar.
Davis RL1, Mostofi FK.
Author information
Abstract
Within a cohort of 340 police officers, six incident cases of testicular cancer occurred between 1979 and 1991 (O/E 6.9; p < 0.001, Poisson distribution). Occupational use of hand-held radar was the only shared risk factor among all six officers, and all routinely held the radar gun directly in close proximity to their testicles. Health effects of occupational radar use have not been widely studied, and further research into a possible association with testicular cancer is warranted.
PMID:
8213849
[Indexed for MEDLINE]
Not surprised in the least bit.
I don't even like being around anything north of 500 MHz, let alone anything squirting out an RF laser beam at 10,000 Million, not a typo, cycles per second. ****. That.
The eyes and the male ballsackius are particularly susceptible to RF damage.
I knew a few cops who had nad cancer believed to have been caused by radar gun sitting in their lap for extended times.
Outlander Systems
08-06-17, 16:57
"Personal tracking and recovery system
Abstract
Apparatus for tracking and recovering humans utilizes an implantable transceiver incorporating a power supply and actuation system allowing the unit to remain implanted and functional for years without maintenance. The implanted transmitter may be remotely actuated, or actuated by the implantee. Power for the remote-activated receiver is generated electromechanically through the movement of body muscle. The device is small enough to be implanted in a child, facilitating use as a safeguard against kidnapping, and has a transmission range which also makes it suitable for wilderness sporting activities. A novel biological monitoring feature allows the device to be used to facilitate prompt medical dispatch in the event of heart attack or similar medical emergency. A novel sensation-feedback feature allows the implantee to control and actuate the device with certainty."
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5629678.PN.&OS=PN/5629678&RS=PN/5629678
ETA: My hieroglyphology is weak sauce, but I could almost swear that in the patent image there's a dude with an RF signal emanating from him and satellites flying over him. Wild.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/US20040174258A1/US20040174258A1-20040909-D00009.png
Technology marches on. And we ain't stopping it.
I think that it was once true that "necessity is the mother of invention". These days, as human knowledge is exponentially exploding, I think it's more true that "invention is the mother of necessity". Certainly true in my business.
Those of us with Luddite tendencies are going to have exponentially increasing problems with the way that technology shapes our society. It isn't going to ever be the way it was when we were kids.
Outlander Systems
08-06-17, 17:28
Nope. And amen on, "invention is the mother of ""necessity.""
Technology marches on. And we ain't stopping it.
I think that it was once true that "necessity is the mother of invention". These days, as human knowledge is exponentially exploding, I think it's more true that "invention is the mother of necessity". Certainly true in my business.
Those of us with Luddite tendencies are going to have exponentially increasing problems with the way that technology shapes our society. It isn't going to ever be the way it was when we were kids.
Not surprised in the least bit.
I don't even like being around anything north of 500 MHz, let alone anything squirting out an RF laser beam at 10,000 Million, not a typo, cycles per second. ****. That.
The eyes and the male ballsackius are particularly susceptible to RF damage.
Lasers don't emit RF and are non-ionizing. They are well below microwaves (radar) in the light spectrum. Biggest risk from lasers is to the eyes because they can actually focus the light (even the invisible light) on the retina. But your balls are safe from lasers.
Outlander Systems
08-06-17, 20:32
I was referring to it as a metaphorical 10 GHz "LASER."
I don't know what the output of a portable radar device is, but I wouldn't want go anywhere near one.
The male ballsackius is safe from LASERs, but not from RF burninatin'.
Lasers don't emit RF and are non-ionizing. They are well below microwaves (radar) in the light spectrum. Biggest risk from lasers is to the eyes because they can actually focus the light (even the invisible light) on the retina. But your balls are safe from lasers.
The male ballsackius is safe from LASERs, but not from RF burninatin'.
Some of us might be better advised to take the tin foil out of our beanies and put it in our shorts.
Some of us might be better advised to take the tin foil out of our beanies and put it in our shorts.
Hurts when I run.
Some of us might be better advised to take the tin foil out of our beanies and put it in our shorts.
Risk to eyes and testicles is mostly due to RF heating. Even a 1 degree rises causes damage.
RF heating peaks at S band, around 2 ghz. Which is where microwave ovens run as that's where water is resonant. the water molecules vibrate, creating heating. Higher frequencies start reflecting and are much more attenuated by common objects.
Still, keeping the common X or K band radar pointed at your nads for long periods of time is a bad idea.
It's non-ionizing, so should not be causing nuclear type mutations thought to cause cancer.
As to patents and sat tracking. Patent covers an idea. Does not change the path link required... It'd be a wampus chip that could have battery power to hit a sat even once, much less 7x24.
Think about sat phones. Just to send a geolocation burst would take 3 db or so less, so half the power. EPIRBS are another portable sat device. Very short operating time.
Still, ain't gonna happen with a self powered chip smaller than a grain of rice.
Then again, maybe I just took the blue pill. :) And the red pill guys know that THEY really have quantum powered tetra cycle (even more zeros) chips.
By the way, most wifi runs in the 2 gig range, close to peak rf heating for water/human organs. We are bathed in that nearly everywhere now.
Moose-Knuckle
08-07-17, 05:41
The only conclusion to draw from those 10 year old magazine articles is that one might think twice about chipping one's pet mouse. Nothing of the kind has been observed in dogs or humans. A variety of electronic devices have been implanted in humans for over 50 years with no such observed results. Same is true of RFID's in millions of dogs over the last 20 years. Over the last 20 years, there are no studies that support the notion that RFID tags, implanted or carried, pose any kind of health risk whatsoever. Just magazine articles. Over a similar time period, there are studies that support the notion that you are at far more risk of cancer from your cell phone.
And yet none of that disproved a thing.
Get chipped all you want doc, your life choices are inconsequential to me and mine.
I though I'd better mention it so that we can keep such risks in context for those who might have been asleep for the last 10 years...;). The data is sketchy at best, and not conclusive, but still better than anything demonstrating a risk from implantable low-power RF devices like RFID tags.
As for cell phones, I never jumped on the "smart" phone bandwagon either. Read a many of articles and interviews by guys with letters after their names on the subject more than ten years ago.
I surmise we will see mucho cancer cases in the future stemming from cell phone usage.
Moose-Knuckle
08-07-17, 06:05
Hmac -
My father died, at age 37, in late 1971, due to several types of cancer.
The previous year he had been working most of his free evenings on a building project immediately adjacent to an large transformer station, mostly within 20 feet of the main transformer.
I've always believed that contributed to his death.
I had a job after school and weekends, so my exposure was much less.
I'm a believer in staying away from transformers and heavy current transmission lines.
Sorry to hear about your father, that was WAY to young.
I too have heard the same about transmission lines and transformers. I'll never buy property near one or an interstate or a railroad track (HC accidents are a bitch) .
But when you talk about this kind of stuff you get the "tinfoil" comments and the like, see posts on previous page.
Get chipped all you want doc, your life choices are inconsequential to me and mine.
Yeah, if they ever get any kind of "one-RFID does it all", I'd probably do it (a ring or watch wouldn't work for me), but I suspect that's a long way off. It's likely to be awhile before implantable RFIDs hit the mainstream. I'm confident that they eventually will, however.
I'm sending a memo on the subject to management at both hospitals where I work, proposing that they investigate a chip implantation program. It will be an interesting exercise. I suspect a lukewarm reception at best.
As for cell phones, I never jumped on the "smart" phone bandwagon either. Read a many of articles and interviews by guys with letters after their names on the subject more than ten years ago.
I surmise we will see mucho cancer cases in the future stemming from cell phone usage.
Cell phones have been pretty common place since the late 90's and have become even more so since then. If they were causing cancer I think we'd have seen some evidence of it by now.
Outlander Systems
08-07-17, 09:45
https://web.archive.org/web/20030517061229/http://adsx.com/news/2003/051303.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20030517061229/http://adsx.com/news/2003/051303.html
The only problem is that company never produced their prototype, was accused of using vaporware to manipulate the stock price, and was ultimately investigated by the SEC.
But it's a bit immaterial... You can buy virtually the same thing postage stamp sized now for $129, minus the packaged battery and pacemaker type charging coil. And that important FDA stuff to make it implantable.
You see, it was just a GPS receiver feeding a GSM/GPRS/cdma data channel over wireless. revolutionary then, but your Android/iPhone does that 7x24 now.
If that level of performance is what you want, you could probably do it in something the size of a couple of stacked quarters. Recharge it daily, Etc.
But would take voluntary recharging or saturate the world with mag fields.
But great blast from the past, they were big news as they went down the tubes. Linked to Scott Brown as well.
Gotta get back to work on my Faraday shield turtleneck... Copper is hard to knit with!
Outlander Systems
08-07-17, 18:58
http://rem-ic.com/OriginGPS/NANO_SPIDER.jpg
Unless I missed it in my alledgedly paranoid state, no one here has yet mentioned the inevitable smart gun mandate if/when RFID implants become mainstream. Just so you know, an RFID chip as control device has already been demonstrated for a purpose built smart gun.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/pgkz8y/biohacking-smart-guns-RFID-implants-amal-graafstra
There is a longer video about gun control and smart gun technology from the hipsters at Vice on their youtube channel, Motherboard, but the lisping millennial narrator is too much for me to listen too, let alone post here.
FYI- this idea has been kicked around for quite some time. Just a few links that are from more than a year ago.
https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/16357-improved-rfid-technology-in-smart-guns-threatens-second-amendment
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2532634/Could-guns-soon-fitted-computers-Chips-prevent-owner-firing-weapon.html
Unless I missed it in my alledgedly paranoid state, no one here has yet mentioned the inevitable smart gun mandate if/when RFID implants become mainstream. Just so you know, an RFID chip as control device has already been demonstrated for a purpose built smart gun.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/pgkz8y/biohacking-smart-guns-RFID-implants-amal-graafstra
There is a longer video about gun control and smart gun technology from the hipsters at Vice on their youtube channel, Motherboard, but the lisping millennial narrator is too much for me to listen too, let alone post here.
FYI- this idea has been kicked around for quite some time. Just a few links that are from more than a year ago.
https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/16357-improved-rfid-technology-in-smart-guns-threatens-second-amendment
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2532634/Could-guns-soon-fitted-computers-Chips-prevent-owner-firing-weapon.html
And it's already been hacked.
http://thehackernews.com/2017/07/smart-gun-hacking.html
Pointless, useless technology that serves no benefit to the law abiding and is easily circumvented by anyone with the will to do so.
Bad enough when my RDS or weapon light fails, I don't need the actual weapon going down due to weaknesses in an electronic device.
Moose-Knuckle
08-08-17, 04:32
Cell phones have been pretty common place since the late 90's and have become even more so since then. If they were causing cancer I think we'd have seen some evidence of it by now.
I read / heard in an interview by IIRC Dr. Andrew Weil who referenced a recent .gov study citing 70% of cancer cases in the US are caused by "environmental factors".
Not saying that is conclusive to cell phones but like big pharma, big tech have their lobbyists and no one is going to throw a fly in the ointment to a billion dollar industry.
I do use a cell phone, just not on it all the time to include texting. It's like that old saying, "Life is about moderation".
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