View Full Version : What's the primary driving force behind gun companies producing problematic guns?
In the past few years we've seen Glock quality take a hit, the S&W M&P had accuracy issues. Sig quality seemed to decline with the arrival of Ron Cohen and now their latest offering is having teething issues.
So is this a byproduct of shoddy design, from a lack of QC on the engineering side? Perhaps due to cost or a desire to push a product out the door before it's ready?
Is this purely money driven? Seems this would be counter productive due to returns, recalls and bad PR.
Or a less likely possibility, Guns are too complicated for current production methods? Seems unlikely as most guns are not that complicated.
Maybe a lack of actual engineering over cheaper gunsmith workbench Gun plumbing designers?
Or something else?
boombotz401
08-08-17, 10:18
With hundreds of thousands of pistols coming off an assembly line it's impossible to know what could arise or how people would use them.
That being said I do agree manufactures seem to be allowing the let the public test and we'll revise mindset
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I haven't seen Glock quality take a hit. If you're referring to the ejection issues from almost a decade ago then it never actually failed. It only ejected back at the shooter but never actually failed
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I haven't seen Glock quality take a hit. If you're referring to the ejection issues from almost a decade ago then it never actually failed. It only ejected back at the shooter but never actually failed
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To be honest, my M&P threw brass in my face on occasion. I just never felt it was an issue.
I haven't seen Glock quality take a hit. If you're referring to the ejection issues from almost a decade ago then it never actually failed. It only ejected back at the shooter but never actually failed
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I have seen their finish quality with some of the current production examples fall well behind their older models. My personal 19, gen 3, had flashing around the molding line of the frame, and especially the trigger guard area, that was so bad that just dry firing it would leave a blister, and if one was to try to run a class with it I am relatively certain it would have drawn blood prior to me pulling out sand paper and sand the line down. It is a small detail but rather large in regards to comfort.
As far as companies putting out guns that might not be ready for prime time, or have issues. It might be partly them unable to figure out how to fix the issues and figuring it is easier to just update later than work it out now since they will have at least some income coming in, and while there are some who will swear the gun off they know a large majority of the shooting public is too stupid to do so, and many will praise the guns as being super greatest zombie killer ever and never shoot more than 500 rounds out of the gun.
It could also be that the issue didn't come up with pre-production models because perhaps they didn't think to test it, tested it half way, or the pre-production models were made to different standards than the production models. Also there is the likely change that areas were changed prior to mass production to ease manufacturing.
Lastly, and perhaps worst, companies only looking at the bottom line and giving not two ****s about the consumer and playing the odds that it is easier to just throw something out, pay off some magazines to give positive reviews, and hope the issues don't rear their head and no one finds out they put out a piece of garbage.
What do y'all think about the theory that most, not all but most of the issues we see reported on gun forums are mostly operator error and not the product?
Glock limpwristing comes to mind as well as people riding slide releases.
If you read he article Recoil did with Kevin brittingham right after he left Sig and started his own company, you'll see that companies develop a quality product but choose to figure out how to make that same product cheaper rather than expand into new markets to raise profits. You rarely ever see a product that is manufactured for less money be as good as the original.
MountainRaven
08-08-17, 16:19
I haven't seen Glock quality take a hit. If you're referring to the ejection issues from almost a decade ago then it never actually failed. It only ejected back at the shooter but never actually failed
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It's a decade old problem that Glocks still have.
It's a decade old problem that Glocks still have.Seriously?
To be honest to me a Glock is a Glock is a Glock. So the way I see it is why pay $550 for a new one when an older gen 2 or 3 is $200 less. So I have not been following the problems of gen 4
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The Glock brass to face issue is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
Why don't they fix it?
Is it just not possible without a complete redesign of the existing gun?
Or do they not care because people are still buying it by the boat loads?
I've heard it said on more than one occasion that "Colt is producing the best 1911's they ever have". I'm not sure what justifies that, or if it's even accurate since I'm not a 1911 guy (yet).
Ned Christiansen
08-08-17, 21:21
This in my opinion is spot on:
"due to cost or a desire to push a product out the door before it's ready?
Is this purely money driven?"
All of those things. Guns should be better than ever but as in all other industries you will see new design and manufacturing methods and new materials that are far superior to anything prior being applied to make it not better, but at a lower manufacturing cost. I believe the lower cost part is doabl;e while creating better quality products but it's like the "cheaper" part snowballs until it gains such momentum that "better" or even "almost as good as before" is pushed to a second place so distant they can't even see it any more.
For some manufacturers, I believe quality control is better than it was 30 years ago. Anyone who served with a large agency and was issued a second or third generation S&W service pistol in the 1980's or 1990's would agree.
Rockyriver
08-09-17, 05:07
Money and as always putting out a product as cheaply as you can to maximize profits.
However I think that the Internet also plays a role in blowing things out of proportion and making mountains out of mole hills on small issues with guns. Now everyone can communicate and connect with other gun owners to tell of their experiences with models.
In return people love to gripe and make things seem worse than they are.
Products designed on computers by focus groups, refined by bean counters, assembled from mass produced parts by semi-skilled labor for gullible end users looking for "style" at a price point.
We are seeing the gun industry turning into the auto industry.
The top end in business are focused on the bottom line and having ego parties at clubs during off hours. The engineers are more motivated to pass blame than to acknowledge and address problems that could damage their careers or complicate their day to day working lives, and the laborers doing QC are hourly workers who don't know anything about the product other than what's on their checklist who have daily quotas to meet to avoid the threat of job loss.
No one really cares about a problem with the product unless it affects the prestige of the company, the individual careers of those designing the products, or the wages of the laborers. When the brand is threatened, it's far cheaper and easier to ignore the problem, blame the end user for being incompetent or pedantic, and/or wait for the fanboys to come out of the woodwork to downplay the issue.
The lacking ingredient is personal interest in the product.
The Glock brass to face issue is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
Why don't they fix it?
Is it just not possible without a complete redesign of the existing gun?
Or do they not care because people are still buying it by the boat loads?
I'd guess they don't care because they sell boatloads of them.. Out of 4 Glocks I own or have owned, (3g19's, (1gen3, bought and sold a few months later, worst pistol I've ever owned) 2 gen4's, 1gen4 g17)all but the g17 needed a Apex extractor, I'm down to 2 Glocks now, A gen 4 g19, and the g17, I traded off the other gen 4 g19 for a NIB HK USP compact, (LEMgun) that worked out well,and when the CZ P-10 c came out, I bought one when I could find one. Once it was broke in, I put the g19 in the safe and have'nt looked back, it's nice not to get brass thrown at you..At this point, I don't see myself getting rid of the Glocks I have, but by the same token, I don't plan on buying a Glock again..Barring some huge improvment that solves the ejection issue, I'm done with them.
LMT Shooter
08-09-17, 07:51
I kinda think part (not all of it, and maybe not even most of it, but some) of this is Internet- and gun magazines, which are also far more common than years ago- hysteria. Like the post above about older S&W pistols, there have always been problem pistols (and other guns, too), but now EVERYBODY knows about it, and in some cases the problem is not as great as it is made out to be.
Tomahawk_Ghost
08-09-17, 09:15
This is not unique to the firearms industry. All publicly traded companies are expected to increase profits for their investors. If the gun industry doesn't to it for an investor then they move to tech companies to maximize their portfolio.
Ned Christiansen
08-10-17, 10:47
"Products designed on computers by focus groups, refined by bean counters, assembled from mass produced parts by semi-skilled labor for gullible end users looking for "style" at a price point.
We are seeing the gun industry turning into the auto industry."
Also spot-on.
I think there is a lot of cost saving, subcontracted parts stuff going on that effects quality.
But I think there is a great deal of lost corporate knowledge. Who is it that is actually doing gun design these days? How often do you actually hear a name? Do the engineers running a CAD simulation actually understand what is really happening, or just an abstract idea of how the gun feeds and extracts?
The P320 debacle is fascinating to me because I can certainly see how SIG screwed themselves by including so many off-center rotating parts. But I'm willing to bet none of the engineers involved or even Bruce Gray saw the potential problems that created. SIG USA does not have a room in the basement where they keep Swiss and German gun designers that they got when they bought the name "Sig Sauer". They got whoever they hired, and when was the last time an American company designed a truly brilliant auto pistol?
Without going into too much personal detail, suffice to say that after dealing with extremely large numbers of the public in an extremely intimate setting, I've seen that the bottom 85% of the U.S. (however you want to define "bottom" - intellectually, morally, wisdom, etc.) is VERY depressingly mediocre. There's a culture of corruption / greed / laziness / entitlement that (excepting a handful of positive cultural changes like civil rights) taints the U.S. in virtually every way, rendering us vastly inferior to the culture of the 1950's / 1960's. People used to be proud to work at the factory. Now they prefer to sell and/or use drugs while on Medicaid. CEOs used to be proud for their company to make outstanding products. Now they make deliberate crap purely for profit (e.g. Glock / Sig), or intentionally run their companies into the ground for short-term personal financial gain, confident in their golden parachutes / government bail outs (e.g. Colt).
It's a cultural thing. The Germans / Swiss / Austrians just have a cultural pride in the idea that, whatever your job is, you should be the very best at it that you can. No matter whether you're an engineer or a janitor. And spending money on kids' education is ten thousand times more important than spending $2 million of taxpayer money to keep every 105 year old grandma alive in the ICU for 2 years.
Our culture has degenerated tremendously relative to theirs over the past 50 years - see our abysmal public education system - and imagine the unavoidable consequences when those tens of millions of kids become the working class. Obviously there are exceptions - that's the top 15% - but it cannot erase the other 85%.
It's 99% cultural. Morally bankrupt and very deliberate past and ongoing choices. The U.S. overwhelmingly simply refuses to be better - it's not that it can't be. Ron Cohen isn't unaware that he wrecked Sig's quality. And Glock is lying when they feign ignorance of BTF for the past 8 years in a row. Both are fixable situations that aren't going to get fixed.
None of my above post is an exaggeration. That's why I buy HK / Daniel Defense / Federal / Speer, and other like-minded companies. At least they truly give a shit (and it shows).
Without going into too much personal detail, suffice to say that after dealing with extremely large numbers of the public in an extremely intimate setting, I've seen that the bottom 85% of the U.S. (however you want to define "bottom" - intellectually, morally, wisdom, etc.) is VERY depressingly mediocre. There's a culture of corruption / greed / laziness / entitlement that (excepting a handful of positive cultural changes like civil rights) taints the U.S. in virtually every way, rendering us vastly inferior to the culture of the 1950's / 1960's. People used to be proud to work at the factory. Now they prefer to sell drugs while on Medicaid. CEOs used to be proud for their company to make outstanding products. Now they make deliberate crap purely for profit (e.g. Glock / Sig), or intentionally run their companies into the ground, confident in their golden parachutes / government bail outs (e.g. Colt).
It's a cultural thing. The Germans / Swiss / Austrians just have a cultural pride in the idea that, whatever your job is, you should be the very best at it that you can. No matter whether you're an engineer or a janitor. Our culture has degenerated tremendously relative to theirs over the past 50 years - see our abysmal public education system - and imagine the unavoidable consequences when those tens of millions of kids become the working class. Obviously there are exceptions, but that's the top 15% that can't begin to erase the other 85%.
It's 99% cultural. Morally bankrupt and very deliberate past and ongoing choices. The U.S. overwhelmingly simply refuses to be better - it's not that it can't be. Ron Cohen isn't unaware that he wrecked Sig's quality. And Glock is lying when they feign ignorance of BTF. Both are fixable situations that aren't going to get fixed.
If there were factories to work in, people working in those factories would take pride in that.
The reason the Germans have held things together is that their laws don't incentivize outsourcing labor. The US is going down the tubes because we are getting poorer. That's what decades of trade deficit is - living off savings. We are not generating wealth but spending it. I don't know how we can blame the people in the lower half for sensing their peril and feeling helpless.
If there were factories to work in, people working in those factories would take pride in that.
The reason the Germans have held things together is that their laws don't incentivize outsourcing labor. The US is going down the tubes because we are getting poorer. That's what decades of trade deficit is - living off savings. We are not generating wealth but spending it. I don't know how we can blame the people in the lower half for sensing their peril and feeling helpless.
There are many factory owners around the country who complain that, despite having many available jobs and a lot of unemployed working-age people in their communities, they cannot fill the positions due to constant failures in random urine drug tests.
I'm not talking about wealth when I refer to the bottom 85%. People in the 1950's were far poorer with a lower standard of living, yet they took pride in their work. Now employees are being fired left and right for constantly failing drug tests, or behaving in inexcusable apathetic ways that force their employer to fire them. My wife and I - both business owners of different businesses - both have to deal with those issues all the time (more the latter than the former). It's not that we don't have jobs - it's that people don't want to work or act like responsible adults.
It's the beginning of how successful Democracies ultimately commit suicide when enough of the 85% mob elects a Socialist government (e.g. Venezuela). Their demise was self-inflicted, Bernie Sanders style. Bernie was not as bad as Chavez, but it's a slippery slope. You elect someone like him, and then the next guy runs on a platform of "Bernie didn't give you enough - I'm going to give you triple that" - and the mob eats it up. That's the death spiral for Democracy.
There are many factory owners around the country who complain that, despite having many available jobs and a lot of unemployed working-age people in their communities, they cannot fill the positions due to constant failures in random urine drug tests.
We are in an opiod epidemic caused by the pharmaceutical industry, and pot in on the cusp of finally being legalized as the largely harmless drug it is. So I can't say that I am shocked to hear that. When the mess the medical industry created is cleaned up and factories stop testing for pot, the problem will shrink.
hotrodder636
08-13-17, 13:40
Very well said in your last few posts. I think that captures many "issues" seen in out country in a nutshell.
Without going into too much personal detail, suffice to say that after dealing with extremely large numbers of the public in an extremely intimate setting, I've seen that the bottom 85% of the U.S. (however you want to define "bottom" - intellectually, morally, wisdom, etc.) is VERY depressingly mediocre. There's a culture of corruption / greed / laziness / entitlement that (excepting a handful of positive cultural changes like civil rights) taints the U.S. in virtually every way, rendering us vastly inferior to the culture of the 1950's / 1960's. People used to be proud to work at the factory. Now they prefer to sell and/or use drugs while on Medicaid. CEOs used to be proud for their company to make outstanding products. Now they make deliberate crap purely for profit (e.g. Glock / Sig), or intentionally run their companies into the ground for short-term personal financial gain, confident in their golden parachutes / government bail outs (e.g. Colt).
It's a cultural thing. The Germans / Swiss / Austrians just have a cultural pride in the idea that, whatever your job is, you should be the very best at it that you can. No matter whether you're an engineer or a janitor. And spending money on kids' education is ten thousand times more important than spending $2 million of taxpayer money to keep every 105 year old grandma alive in the ICU for 2 years.
Our culture has degenerated tremendously relative to theirs over the past 50 years - see our abysmal public education system - and imagine the unavoidable consequences when those tens of millions of kids become the working class. Obviously there are exceptions - that's the top 15% - but it cannot erase the other 85%.
It's 99% cultural. Morally bankrupt and very deliberate past and ongoing choices. The U.S. overwhelmingly simply refuses to be better - it's not that it can't be. Ron Cohen isn't unaware that he wrecked Sig's quality. And Glock is lying when they feign ignorance of BTF for the past 8 years in a row. Both are fixable situations that aren't going to get fixed.
None of my above post is an exaggeration. That's why I buy HK / Daniel Defense / Federal / Speer, and other like-minded companies. At least they truly give a shit (and it shows).
hotrodder636
08-13-17, 13:44
This being part of the American problem...instead of people taking responsibility for their own actions, blaming problems/cause on others (read:drug addicts are as such because of big Pharma).
Enough off topic....
We are in an opiod epidemic caused by the pharmaceutical industry, and pot in on the cusp of finally being legalized as the largely harmless drug it is. So I can't say that I am shocked to hear that. When the mess the medical industry created is cleaned up and factories stop testing for pot, the problem will shrink.
I wonder if the sheer volume of guns produced has led to a larger statistical failure anomaly?
This being part of the American problem...instead of people taking responsibility for their own actions, blaming problems/cause on others (read:drug addicts are as such because of big Pharma).
Enough off topic....
I wonder if the sheer volume of guns produced has led to a larger statistical failure anomaly?
Everybody likes to talk about personal responsibility, which is usually followed by a long diatribe about how some other group of people is at fault for bringing down the country.
Doctors getting large numbers of people hooked on legal heroin at the behest of a drug company that advertised low addiction rates is not "personal responsibility".
Mrgunsngear
08-13-17, 14:51
I suspect the issues with certain models have always existed but the internet now sheds the light on them. Many of you remember how Glock denied there were issues with the early Gen4s (the reason I actually accidentally started a youtube channel) and they just claimed it was user error/ammo/etc.... That was really the last time a company tried to tell customers they were wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence. It really was akin to if Sig said they didn't have drop firing issues today (they're not, but for example...)
hotrodder636
08-13-17, 14:52
Yes, I suspect the ease with which people can post on forums, YouTube, etc has had a significant impact of the information of issues getting out.
Yes, I suspect the ease with which people can post on forums, YouTube, etc has had a significant impact of the information of issues getting out.
And yet back in the '80s Ruger recalled the P-85 for a rare-ish AD mode.
It comes down more to how companies view the stewardship of their own brand. Many companies do not look long into the future with their decisions.
hotrodder636
08-13-17, 15:15
Not saying recalls didn't happen in the past...that is ridiculous. I was stating that it is very easy to get info out with the various forms of social media.
Not saying recalls didn't happen in the past...that is ridiculous. I was stating that it is very easy to get info out with the various forms of social media.
And I didn't put those words in your mouth. I was just pointing out that companies like Ruger are not afraid to issue a real recall, and that behavior has been the same since long before the internet.
But before the internet, police telex had a similar effect, which is likely why the first Glock "upgrade" happened - the PD involved put it out to other PDs.
With weapons that are primarily aimed at the commercial market companies can still get away with a lot because we've arrived at a point when forum people distrust each other. Which is why people still buy Taurus.
Chances are that SIG would have done some upgrade thing if various LEAs let each other know how to drop fire the P320. I guess I'm surprised that Stamford PD didn't make a bigger stink since they apparently have CCTV footage of the AD.
Now they make deliberate crap purely for profit (e.g. Glock / Sig), or intentionally run their companies into the ground for short-term personal financial gain, confident in their golden parachutes / government bail outs (e.g. Colt).
I honestly feel like stuff such as this gets said simply to stir the pot and try and start a disagreement.
The overwhelming majority of companies operate to make a profit. Yeah, there are a few charitable endeavors out there doing what they do because of a cause, but in the firearms business I can't think of one. Nobody at Glock, or Sig is making "deliberate crap purely for profit," they make firearms and sell millions of them due to a huge demand. Could they address issues better? Yeah, both could, but again this doesn't mean that they're turning out junk simply to lighten the wallets of the firearms buying public.
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