View Full Version : Why does PSA receive so much hate?
I am on a facebook AR-15 group someone added me to.
Member post a link to a Del-Ton rifle on sale for something like $450.
I reply and say to buy a PSA rifle kit on sale and add a blemished lower.
Several people reply to my post saying that PSA is junk and no better than Del-ton.
I have built at three PSA rifles, owned a Colt and Bushmaster. They were not used in competition shooting, just around the farm and target shooting from time to time.
So, why would people give PSA so much hate? They may not be top of the line, but certainly not junk either.
~ EDIT ~
I asked the guys posting the comments "you have never owned a PSA have you?" None of them replied to my question. Maybe they were repeating what they had heard.
Even if they were repeating what they had heard, I do no understand why people would think PSA is bottom tier?
cobravenom39
08-09-17, 11:04
People who don't know...don't know. I only buy KAC, Colt and Premium PSA uppers. I have some PSA lowers, too.
Most people who don't know much AR's have no idea that PSA sells FN CL and CL hammer-forged barrels. Also, they sell Toolcraft bolts that are MPI/HP tested, just like the ones they supply to the .mil.
Let them keep buying Springfield Saints.
Inkslinger
08-09-17, 11:10
There have been plenty of threads on this site specifically about PSA. Search.
Oh boy, this should be fun.
** +1 for PSA.
OP, I have no problem with PSA and think they offer a quality parts/rifle at an affordable price. ** With that said, I only have experience with and thus, can only personally recommend their Premium and CHF uppers, lowers, and their classic lower parts kits. If anyone ever has a problem, they will take care of it.
At the end of the day, I am a dirt shooter, my life isn't worth shit, and my family will most certainly die if I ever have to use a PSA rifle in a defensive situation.
If the above applies to you as it does me, go for it. PSA will serve you well. Well, you'll likely be dead, but.. never mind.
There have been plenty of threads on this site specifically about PSA. Search.
I am not asking about the quality of PSA, I know that first hand.
The question is, why would people think they are bottom tier?
PSA offers a variety of prices and options to customers. My target rifle is a mid-length freedom upper. While my go to rifle has a chrome-lined magpartical inspected barrel. It was supposed to be a premium kit, but the barrel is not marked as hammer forged.
It was supposed to be a premium kit, but the barrel is not marked as hammer forged.
Premium = Button Broached
CHF = Cold Hammer Forged
You likely bought the button broached, FN barrel. Great barrel.
I think a truthful answer is that many people tend to parrot what they've heard and to be a member of the in-crowd by echoing the sentiments of folks they perceive as being the 'cool guys.' Often without much individual knowledge.
It is just human nature to defend one's own convictions, especially if they have cash invested in them.
To the point, the truth about PSA quality probably lies somewhere in the middle, between the camps of haters and fan boys.
JMO
Premium = Button Broached
CHF = Cold Hammer Forged
You likely bought the button broached, FN barrel. Great barrel.
Thank you.
I did not know that.
Simple answers - PSA has multiple product lines or levels of products. Features can be implied when the don't apply (6061 receiver extensions identified as MilSpec for example). Assembly quality has been spotty and quality control is poor. Some products use good materials, (normally Premium line), but the execution is lacking.
That being said, a PSA Premium rifle is preferable to a Delton in my mind.
Andy
Inkslinger
08-09-17, 11:37
I remember one thread where someone sent their upper back because of an issue and had it returned to them with a live round in the chamber. When you search "PSA" you'll probably find it...
I guess we were due for another PSA love thread.
The issues with PSA are easy to search for and find, which include: inconsistent quality of parts, inconsistent and improper assembly, inconsistent to borderline nonexistent QC, and add inconsistent customer service on top of that. About the only thing consistent from them is their mostly crappy shipping times.
PSA is hobby grade, at best.
To the point, the truth about PSA quality probably lies somewhere in the middle, between the camps of haters and fan boys.
JMO
Sometimes we get what we pay for. Because of that, I do not understand why PSA would deserve hateful comments. It was not just one person posting the comments, but several people.
If someone wants a premium product, then spend the money and buy it.
I wasn't going to wade into this, but I got nothing better to do at this moment. So what the hell and hold my beer.
The reason for the hate is multi-fold.
First, there is PSA's customer service issues, at least the CS issues a number of years back, like 7 or 8 years now, which they still have not shaken. Having personally dealt with PSA's CS in that time frame having them literally LYING to me about an order's status, I don't have much in the way of respect for the outfit after that stunt. The long waits that some also experienced in getting their parts in that time frame as well as the election also hurt their reputation as well and many have held a grudge on that as well. I mean, PSA's shipping is still a running joke.
Second, and this has been touched on, you have a company that is running what now four, five? lines of AR parts and uppers? There are can be a legitimate argument made that you don't know what specs all of the rifles are going to be going out with minus really the barrels since you have everything from premium line to god only knows what specs it is to. Also, everyone who is in the fan boy camp always push this FN barrel line, which not all the uppers have FN barrels, nor CHF barrels, but if you talk to a fan boy that seems to be their one claim to fame. Which we can argue PSA's specs, but the point being not all of their barrels are FN. I would say their would be a more valid argument for discussing different PSA lines than just PSA in general, however, like some companies previous actions have soured many people's opinion of them so you will get the fall back of whatever PSA's top tier is that it isn't worth it to other companies in the same price range.
Third, and this might just be me, but when PSA came out with their PTAC line and gave pretty much no specs on it there was a series of questions asked by members here regarding the barrel and at the time PSA's response was along the lines of "It's proprietary." Which since a lot of higher end manufacturers will give you the exact specs if asked if they aren't posted on their sites, led to the bit of a the joke that the barrel's were made out of tin-can-ium and again did not help PSA's position.
As 26 stated the truth is honestly somewhere in between. To some, I think PSA is to ARs what Century is to AKs. You can get a rifle that is fine, you can get one with issues, or you can spend more money elsewhere for a lower chance of getting something with issues.
Here we go again :eyeroll:
I've had issues with parts I bought when I didn't know better. I haven't and won't buy any more.
hobby grade
Maybe a little off tangent, but related, what is a good working definition of hobby grade that we can mostly agree on?
Sometimes screw ups are ok.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?136310-Interesting-Colt-QC-problems
Sometimes screw ups are ok.
Definition of hobby? That is a pretty general statement, could you elaborate or narrow it down more?
PSA sells some good stuff. FN CHF barrels, Toolcraft bolts, their lowers seem to be in spec and I think are made by Aero.
They also sell some total garbage. They screw stuff up, and their customer service is not very good.
To some because they sell some junk, they are junk. They get judged by their worst not their best. Other people just don't know they have some good stuff.
I buy some of their stuff because its cheap, some other stuff out of curiosity. I think some of it is decent quality, I however attach a very low level of prestige to them as a brand.
Maybe a little off tangent, but related, what is a good working definition of hobby grade that we can mostly agree on?
My reference to hobby grade could be defined as a level of quality that exists when one removes it from the box, before replacing parts or completing the assembly. Where failure/malfunctions caused by lack of quality, or failure during assembly is acceptable, because only your range trip may be ended.
My reference to hobby grade could be defined as a level of quality that exists when one removes it from the box, before replacing parts or completing the assembly. Where failure/malfunctions caused by lack of quality, or failure during assembly is acceptable, because only your range trip may be ended.
That seems to be a reasonable definition.
titsonritz
08-09-17, 15:02
I guess we were due for another PSA love thread.
Here we go again :eyeroll:
Yeah but the other three dozen threads are locked (can't imagine why) :jester:
I am not asking about the quality of PSA, I know that first hand.
The question is, why would people think they are bottom tier?
Probably because you believe what you want to believe. You think your PSA items are of good quality, but admit you don't really use them much. PSA is known to switch items, and send items of varying quality. Buyers thinking they are getting one thing have ended up getting another. PSA is known to sell parts which were rejected by other companies. They are also known for substandard assembly, slow shipping, poor QC, and problems taking back items they are at fault with. All of these things are pretty well documented in various places and from quite a few different people.
For people who say their PSA BCG comes from Toolcraft, or their barrel comes from a certain place so they must be milspec, are easily led down the road of ignorance. Companies will manufacture whatever a buyer wants, to whatever specs they want. If you want the cheapest BCG or barrel possible, you can have them made, and by skipping QC or going with cheaper components, you can get a much lower overall price. In that same manner, you can also buy (as a dealer) overstock, blems, and rejected items.
The above doesn't mean everything they sell is garbage, nor would I imply that by a long shot. What I do state in the above is they are not a supplier I would personally consider a safe source to buy items from. The likelihood of getting burnt is much higher than it would be buying from someone like Grant, John from Rainier Arms, or Paul and BCM. These are solid companies that have their reputations on quality items and quality service.
For people thinking I refer only to the AR15 components, I am not. It appears their entire business is run in the above manner. If you look at their 300blk ammo, there is a large group of people who bought bulk 300blk ammo only to find it isn't sized correctly and will not reliably function. PSA continues to sell the ammo, and tells their customers to take it up with the mfg. Known bad ammunition shouldn't be sold in my opinion, and I can't think of many people who would argue that concept.
It isn't a matter of being a brand snob when it comes to people avoiding PSA.
PattonWasRight
08-09-17, 15:13
I think a truthful answer is that many people tend to parrot what they've heard and to be a member of the in-crowd by echoing the sentiments of folks they perceive as being the 'cool guys.' Often without much individual knowledge.
It is just human nature to defend one's own convictions, especially if they have cash invested in them.
To the point, the truth about PSA quality probably lies somewhere in the middle, between the camps of haters and fan boys.
JMO This.
Maybe a little off tangent, but related, what is a good working definition of hobby grade that we can mostly agree on?
At work, we make everything from high-speed, anti-ram security barriers to gates and fence that go around swimming pools. They are very similar in appearance, but vastly different in their level of performance. One is tested and certified at every process, the other is not. It's "hobby grade", you could say. And the respective price of each reflects that.
I'd define professional grade AR's as having all of the QC, NDT, materials certification, etc that is required to meet a spec deemed necessary for a particular end use (mil for example). Hobby grade would be general purpose, lacking NDT, materials cert, etc due to the need to only meet a price point as the main requirement.
Where people get wrapped around the axle with ARs imho, is that the price difference between the average "hobby grade" rifle and the least expensive "duty grade" rifle is often so little that it makes no sense to go with the the hobby rifle.
Another analogy...The crown Vic that granddad drove was similar to the police interceptor crown Vic's...but the cruiser was built to take WAY more abuse than pawpaws car.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
titsonritz
08-09-17, 16:26
The above doesn't mean everything they sell is garbage, nor would I imply that by a long shot. What I do state in the above is they are not a supplier I would personally consider a safe source to buy items from. The likelihood of getting burnt is much higher than it would be buying from someone like Grant, John from Rainier Arms, or Paul and BCM. These are solid companies that have their reputations on quality items and quality service.
It isn't a matter of being a brand snob when it comes to people avoiding PSA.
IMO, this is all that needs be said of the company in question and why avoid I them. It just isn't worth playing hit or miss with them to me.
bamashooter
08-09-17, 18:31
My .02 worth of PSA opinions appear to indicate it can be a coin toss regarding quality and customer service. I recently purchased this upper http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-ar15-16-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-13-5-m-lok-upper-with-bcg-ch-516444973.html and really liked it. No idea which level of quality it falls under in their assorted tiers. I soon discovered what I thought was a minor casting flaw interior to the upper and damage occurring to the charging handle. Not a biggie to me though I allowed myself to be talked into contacting customer service. I sent multiple photos and suggested they could first send me a new charging handle and we could go from there.
They were fine with it. Received the ch and began closely studying, at a rookie level, the machining, casting, etc of the upper. Took some base measurements and compared to two other uppers I have. It looked like the PSA upper, where it meets the charging handle, had clearly missed the mark. I contacted PSA with my new findings (a link to another forum). They felt it needed to be returned for repair and emailed a label. I received the label and shipped the upper on 28 July. In my opinion, they were very cordial and appeared willing to please. I understand how flawed products make it out the door no matter who it is. I have no idea if my complete upper is junk, decent quality or what. It came recommended from a very experienced AR type whose opinion I hold in high regard. So at the moment, I give them the benefit of the doubt as to quality and my limited experience with their customer service has been excellent.
Spot on. This is s really good post.
At work, we make everything from high-speed, anti-ram security barriers to gates and fence that go around swimming pools. They are very similar in appearance, but vastly different in their level of performance. One is tested and certified at every process, the other is not. It's "hobby grade", you could say. And the respective price of each reflects that.
I'd define professional grade AR's as having all of the QC, NDT, materials certification, etc that is required to meet a spec deemed necessary for a particular end use (mil for example). Hobby grade would be general purpose, lacking NDT, materials cert, etc due to the need to only meet a price point as the main requirement.
Where people get wrapped around the axle with ARs imho, is that the price difference between the average "hobby grade" rifle and the least expensive "duty grade" rifle is often so little that it makes no sense to go with the the hobby rifle.
Another analogy...The crown Vic that granddad drove was similar to the police interceptor crown Vic's...but the cruiser was built to take WAY more abuse than pawpaws car.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Probably because you believe what you want to believe. You think your PSA items are of good quality, but admit you don't really use them much. PSA is known to switch items, and send items of varying quality. Buyers thinking they are getting one thing have ended up getting another. PSA is known to sell parts which were rejected by other companies. They are also known for substandard assembly, slow shipping, poor QC, and problems taking back items they are at fault with. All of these things are pretty well documented in various places and from quite a few different people.
For people who say their PSA BCG comes from Toolcraft, or their barrel comes from a certain place so they must be milspec, are easily led down the road of ignorance. Companies will manufacture whatever a buyer wants, to whatever specs they want. If you want the cheapest BCG or barrel possible, you can have them made, and by skipping QC or going with cheaper components, you can get a much lower overall price. In that same manner, you can also buy (as a dealer) overstock, blems, and rejected items.
The above doesn't mean everything they sell is garbage, nor would I imply that by a long shot. What I do state in the above is they are not a supplier I would personally consider a safe source to buy items from. The likelihood of getting burnt is much higher than it would be buying from someone like Grant, John from Rainier Arms, or Paul and BCM. These are solid companies that have their reputations on quality items and quality service.
For people thinking I refer only to the AR15 components, I am not. It appears their entire business is run in the above manner. If you look at their 300blk ammo, there is a large group of people who bought bulk 300blk ammo only to find it isn't sized correctly and will not reliably function. PSA continues to sell the ammo, and tells their customers to take it up with the mfg. Known bad ammunition shouldn't be sold in my opinion, and I can't think of many people who would argue that concept.
It isn't a matter of being a brand snob when it comes to people avoiding PSA.This. Balanced and accurate. I'm only sorry you have to keep typing it over and over every time the same question is posted rather than searched. We really ought to sticky a "why not PSA" thread...
IBTL.
Just for the record, I don't hate PSA. It has it's place, I suppose. I just don't trust, respect, or own it. It was completely against my recommendation, but I have used PSA parts for friends. Yes, there were issues. I really don't care what someone else wants to spend there money or time on, but it is not and most likely never will be in the group of respected and quality manufacturers. It is not as good as...more than quite a few manufacturers mentioned over and over hear. I cringe when someone shares their new home defense weapon and it is PSA. Hey, to each their own.
SeriousStudent
08-09-17, 20:25
I do not hate PSA.
I know for a fact I have spent several thousand dollars with them. I know for a fact I have bought over a grand of Speer rifle and pistol ammo from them. I've bought hundreds of dollars worth of mags for my Smith and Wesson M&P 9, Glock 9mm pistols and various AR's.
What I do not buy are their AR's or AR parts.
The reason I do not, is exactly what Stickman said. I have a combination of pure range fun toys, and serious self defense firearms. But with the sole exception of a few range optics, a lot of those parts get swapped around. So a stock might be on this lower this spring, and next fall might be on a different one. I might tear down a complete upper, and rebuild it with a different rail or barrel.
So I buy known quality stuff from BCM and G&R and Sionics and Centurion and SKD and Geissele and Magpul and others.
Why do I do that? Because every Industry Professional and SME on this board recommends those guys. That's people with decades of experience supporting AR-style weapons in austere environments, out on the pointy end of the stick.
So when Jethro Bodean from Frog Knuckle, Left Dakota rants (and here is the key point, home viewers) how his PSA is just as good as Colt, BCM, LMT, etc..... that is when Jethro gets the stink eye. Jethro then gets pissy that he's being questioned, grabs his purse and stomps out. Or the thread gets locked.
People should feel free to buy PSA AR's if they want to. I honestly do not give an obese rodent's bottom either way.
What I do give a poop about is when people come here and throw down the "just as good as card". Because they just are not. There is no way on God's green earth that a $400 AR is as good as a $900 AR from one of the vendors mentioned in this thread. It's un-possible.
Buy a PSA, take it to the range and shoot targets with it. Shoot the center out of clay pigeons offhand - I do that, and it's honestly a lot of fun. Take pictures and put them on whatever social media is popular this week.
But do me two ginormous favors. Don't bet your life, my life or the life of someone you love on it. And don't say it's just as good as some other carbines we've mentioned.
Because it's not.
Quote Originally Posted by JasonB1 View Post
Sometimes screw ups are ok.
Definition of hobby? That is a pretty general statement, could you elaborate or narrow it down more?
My post was supposed to include this link
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?136310-Interesting-Colt-QC-problems
On a similar note, off the top of my head they have rolled out the Expanse, Double Eagle, and All American 2000.
I'm not going to get in the PSA vs
everything else deal. I've got them, and several Colt's, and the Libertarian in me just says to buy what you want.
What I have always marveled over is the problem so many seem to have with long waits for their order. Admittedly, I'm only in central Ga., but it's never taken more than a week to receive any order from PSA. My last order, a few weeks ago, was placed late on Thursday night, shipped on Friday morning, and was at my front door Tuesday afternoon.
If my orders took as long as some of you report, I'd be miffed too.
Skip
I kept hearing names like BCM, Colt, Daniel Defense, KAC, etc. during my research. It seemed to me that their track records, materials used, assembly, responsive CS, and the peace of mind that comes along with it were worth it so that's why I went BCM.
I think PSA is probably capable of putting out a good rifle. However, I'm not confident that they do it consistently or that they take care of issues when they happen. That's why I prefer to stay with BCM, Colt, etc.
ffhounddog
08-09-17, 22:02
I don't have an issue with their older uppers from 2013 but have friends that have bought recent Rifles having to go back for work or parts replacement. Only thing I would personally trust from them at this moment would be carbine length systems of the 16 inch variety that is Chrome lined.
SeriousStudent
08-09-17, 22:03
I'm not going to get in the PSA vs
everything else deal. I've got them, and several Colt's, and the Libertarian in me just says to buy what you want.
What I have always marveled over is the problem so many seem to have with long waits for their order. Admittedly, I'm only in central Ga., but it's never taken more than a week to receive any order from PSA. My last order, a few weeks ago, was placed late on Thursday night, shipped on Friday morning, and was at my front door Tuesday afternoon.
If my orders took as long as some of you report, I'd be miffed too.
Skip
Most of the orders I have had usually take about 8-10 business days, or about 2 weeks on average.
But I'm usually buying bulk ammo or mags. I don't really care if they take 2 weeks.
I have never had anything arrive as fast as you describe. But if I needed something faster, I'd order from one of the companies I mentioned.
PA is an in- between gun(premium). They post milspec parts but buyer needs to know what to look for.
My experience of one had a defect that prevented proper operation. It's been good so far, since correction, but something was out of spec. What else is "milspec" but not?
People like to believe you don't get what you pay for- good luck. Yes, statistically you will be good to go, but I'd prefer to not roll the dice. Good luck - ymmv.
I do not hate PSA.
I know for a fact I have spent several thousand dollars with them. I know for a fact I have bought over a grand of Speer rifle and pistol ammo from them. I've bought hundreds of dollars worth of mags for my Smith and Wesson M&P 9, Glock 9mm pistols and various AR's.
What I do not buy are their AR's or AR parts.
The reason I do not, is exactly what Stickman said. I have a combination of pure range fun toys, and serious self defense firearms. But with the sole exception of a few range optics, a lot of those parts get swapped around. So a stock might be on this lower this spring, and next fall might be on a different one. I might tear down a complete upper, and rebuild it with a different rail or barrel.
So I buy known quality stuff from BCM and G&R and Sionics and Centurion and SKD and Geissele and Magpul and others.
Why do I do that? Because every Industry Professional and SME on this board recommends those guys. That's people with decades of experience supporting AR-style weapons in austere environments, out on the pointy end of the stick.
So when Jethro Bodean from Frog Knuckle, Left Dakota rants (and here is the key point, home viewers) how his PSA is just as good as Colt, BCM, LMT, etc..... that is when Jethro gets the stink eye. Jethro then gets pissy that he's being questioned, grabs his purse and stomps out. Or the thread gets locked.
People should feel free to buy PSA AR's if they want to. I honestly do not give an obese rodent's bottom either way.
What I do give a poop about is when people come here and throw down the "just as good as card". Because they just are not. There is no way on God's green earth that a $400 AR is as good as a $900 AR from one of the vendors mentioned in this thread. It's un-possible.
Buy a PSA, take it to the range and shoot targets with it. Shoot the center out of clay pigeons offhand - I do that, and it's honestly a lot of fun. Take pictures and put them on whatever social media is popular this week.
But do me two ginormous favors. Don't bet your life, my life or the life of someone you love on it. And don't say it's just as good as some other carbines we've mentioned.
Because it's not.
This is probably the best advice I've seen on why and why not to buy PSA. I bought an upper from them before I was enlightened and the BCG ate gas rings like none of my other ARs (BCM). I bought two LPKs from them, both of the bolt catches were out of spec, but the lower (same brand for all three lowers) that I built up with a Sionics LPK didn't have these problems. I had another lower that was built with a PSA LPK and it began unintentionally double tapping after about 1500 rounds.
PSA has corrected all of the problems that I've brought to their attention, but the fact of the matter is that I should have never encountered these problems to start with. None of my BCM, Scionics, or ALG parts have had problems, so why should I be putting up with PSA's crappy parts?
I can say that I haven't had the horrific shipping times that everyone always mentions but that could just be because I don't live very far away from them.
The moral of the story is that the companies that are recommended by M4C members have given me zero problems, but PSA has never sold me any AR component that didn't have a problem.
The way I see it is that buying from PSA is compared to buying all your clothes at walmart, most of the stuff is cheaper and no-name brand but still works as intended. The tier I rifles are designer cloths that you have to buy at the outlet malls, they cost more and have that expensive tag but still do the same thing the clothes at walmart do.
I also have and do buy from PSA. What I do not buy is anything they make or sell that is AR related. I have seen their handywork several times over the years in my classes and that's all need to see.
I think a truthful answer is that many people tend to parrot what they've heard and to be a member of the in-crowd by echoing the sentiments of folks they perceive as being the 'cool guys.' Often without much individual knowledge.
It is just human nature to defend one's own convictions, especially if they have cash invested in them.
To the point, the truth about PSA quality probably lies somewhere in the middle, between the camps of haters and fan boys.
JMO
I could not agree more. I have owned a Premium PSA pencil upper since 2010 and it has been nothing but great. Now I did suspect a problem with the BCG that came with it, but I have not actually tested my thoughts and validated it.
9mm_shooter
08-10-17, 09:38
I'm one of the people that has actually owned a PSA blem lower. It was too good a deal to pass up on.
Well, I got what I paid for. Rear pin hole was out of spec. Had to widen my upper's (DD shorty) rear hole make it match and allow the pin to go through.
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I recently got another blem lower. Pin holes are also out of spec, and require a mallet to get them back in with my DD or BCM upper. Also, the lower parts they are using are hot garbage. The safety selector was some pot metal piece that would not function. I replaced it with a proper piece from the spare parts bin and now I can at least put the lower on safe and fire. PSA is what it is: a place to gamble. Some things I have gotten there have worked very well, others (like my 9mm carbine I used to own) would literally have every imaginable malfunction possible including the ejector falling out. PSA to me is now a place to buy .223 gold dots and other things on sale, when I'm willing to wait a couple weeks for it to show wp.
I don't have a problem with PSA. I have experience with two different PSA complete blemished lowers. There was no actual blemish, and aside from poor castle nut staking they've been flawless. I don't know if I'd buy an upper from them or trust their BCG when I could spend a little more and get something from a company like BCM or SOLGW that I know will have gone through a stringent QC check. Then again I'd rather buy once and cry once. The neat thing about ~$1000 ARs is that they make neat range toys too (I always scratch my head at people who buy a Colt/DD/etc for home defense then buy a budget AR just for "plinking").
I'm one of the people that has actually owned a PSA blem lower. It was too good a deal to pass up on.
Well, I got what I paid for. Rear pin hole was out of spec. Had to widen my upper's (DD shorty) rear hole make it match and allow the pin to go through.
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Why did you modify what you knew to be a perfect part instead of the flawed one?
I have a PSA lower that's worked fine for the past couple years, although looking back, I should have just picked up a Colt right off the bat. With respect to shipping times, I've purchases ammo, magazines, and what not from them and haven't experienced any issues.
9mm_shooter
08-10-17, 12:44
Why did you modify what you knew to be a perfect part instead of the flawed one?
I really debated that same question for a while.
The lower was $70 and with shipping + new FFL fees, sending it back or even just replacing it would have cost me more. The upper's rear hole was adjusted, and I just learned to live with it.
I just won't buy anything AR related from PSA again.
I have seen their handywork several times over the years in my classes and that's all need to see.
How well did the rifles run in the courses?
AK47 operators union on youTube posted a video about the WASr-10 after 10,000 rounds. I have a wasr-10, it rattles, front sight has a cant to it, looks like it fell off a ship on the way over from romania.
However, AK47 operators union said their rifle had only a handful of malfunctions in those 10,000 rounds and only with a certain type of ammunition.
I do not care what the rifle looks like, is it reliable?
I really debated that same question for a while.
The lower was $70 and with shipping + new FFL fees, sending it back or even just replacing it would have cost me more. The upper's rear hole was adjusted, and I just learned to live with it.
I just won't buy anything AR related from PSA again.
It's crap on having to pay shipping back to them on a defect, but unless Florida has some anti gun law mandating FFL use I don't get see why there would be a need to go through an FFL for a repair/replacement scenario.
HackerF15E
08-10-17, 13:17
PSA is known to sell parts which were rejected by other companies.
I've seen you make this claim more than once. What are the specifics here?
How well did the rifles run in the courses?
AK47 operators union on youTube posted a video about the WASr-10 after 10,000 rounds. I have a wasr-10, it rattles, front sight has a cant to it, looks like it fell off a ship on the way over from romania.
However, AK47 operators union said their rifle had only a handful of malfunctions in those 10,000 rounds and only with a certain type of ammunition.
I do not care what the rifle looks like, is it reliable?What does his answer about PSA ARs have to do with the WASR
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From my experience the PSA components are fine, it's assembly and quality control. I bought a premium upper... front sight was canted severely, the charging handle had to be jammed into the upper until grooves could be worn into it, and it was horribly overgassed, it bucked like a 7.62 and if I rapid fired i was gassed-out as if it was running suppressed.
noonesshowmonkey
08-10-17, 16:12
You get what you pay for in this world. There are no two ways about it. Sometimes, you get lucky. I picked up a WASR-10 that is laser straight with essentially no cant and puts great groups up. The internet is full of pictures of WASR front sight posts pushed all the way to one side or the other. Other times, you spend good money to take luck out of the picture. In the case of ARs, you just get your mind right and get a Colt and be done with it.
Certain products benefit from economies of scale. BCGs are a good example. Toolcraft makes a fine bolt carrier group, and their price is not something that is hard to swallow. I have three of theirs in various flavors, to include 9310, and nitride coatings. I wouldn't consider any of them to be 'second tier' or 'garbage tier' or whatever. If you are going to put your rifle through a serious course of fire and do not have an extra BCG on hand, then you're a fool. Swear by your DD / BCM / Whoever all you want, but bring a spare. Cyclic wear doesn't give two shits what letters are on the side of your part. The Battlefield Las Vegas thread did a great job of demonstrating that Toolcraft and PSA BCGs last and last, but that Colt BCGs take the cake. Do with that what you will.
I have one PSA lower, and had to loosen the magazine release a touch to get M3 pmags to drop free. Big deal. Everything else on it (thus far) has been just fine, and you honestly couldn't beat the price. Take a look at the accepted standards cost of what people consider a 'reliable' lower, plus a 'reliable' parts kit. An inexpensive alternative would be an Aero Precision lower and an ALG parts kit. If you are watching sales, you can grab these two for an all-in cost of around $100-110, and then the rest is assembly. As noted in this very paragraph, the assembly monkies at PSA managed to over tighten the magazine release on my lower. There are plenty of other things they might-could have screwed up. That's something that I'd want to shake out in training sessions.
As far as customer service and shipping times go, they appear to vary. I've had items show up at my door no more than 4 days after I hit 'order'. Another order took just over a week, going on a week and a half. I think that much of it has to do with their total volume of sales at that specific moment in time. Who knows. I don't buy gun-stuff on an I-need-it-right-now schedule.
I think that PSA is definitely buyer beware. Their lower tier gear has the cost savings listed in the specs: 6160, 4140, less-than-milspec coatings, missing tests, batch tests, etc. Their high tier Premium stuff still has to pass over the hurdle of the assembly monkies, and you're at their mercy (and the mercy of how much they've had to drink on a given day). That said, some of their sales make it really hard to say no. About two months ago, they had Premium CHF FN barrelled 10.5" uppers with Geisselle Mk13 EMRs for ~$320. I about fell out of my chair. The same upper was on sale for the much more reasonable $500, down from their list price of $700. That is a $700 upper, as compared with other manufacturers. You'd have a helluva time parting that out for less than $500.
Sometimes their sale-by-volume tactics leave overstock behind that they need to move and to move right now in order to make room for the next wave of goods. They need to clean out their warehouses before the tax quarter hits and they need to pay taxes on inventory. Whatever their loss is in that moment can easily be your gain.
Or, you can spend the ~20-40% premium to buy from other folks.
I passed on the PSA 10.5" because I specifically am in the market for the Sionics Reduced Gas Port barrel and upper. For ~$320, I had a moment of blind panic, but at $500 the Sionics unit is close enough in price to justify the differences. As this post opened, you get what you pay for.
noonesshowmonkey
08-10-17, 16:12
From my experience the PSA components are fine, it's assembly and quality control. I bought a premium upper... front sight was canted severely, the charging handle had to be jammed into the upper until grooves could be worn into it, and it was horribly overgassed, it bucked like a 7.62 and if I rapid fired i was gassed-out as if it was running suppressed.
You can easily send that back to get a replacement. Their CS department works just fine, and should have a shipping label sent to you.
It's crap on having to pay shipping back to them on a defect, but unless Florida has some anti gun law mandating FFL use I don't get see why there would be a need to go through an FFL for a repair/replacement scenario.
There is no such requirement here in FL. oh forgot to add, my one return out a half dozen or so carbines and equal amount of uppers and lowers was covered by PSA.
Simple answers - PSA has multiple product lines or levels of products. Features can be implied when the don't apply (6061 receiver extensions identified as MilSpec for example). Assembly quality has been spotty and quality control is poor. Some products use good materials, (normally Premium line), but the execution is lacking.
That being said, a PSA Premium rifle is preferable to a Delton in my mind.
+1. You get what you pay for, as we all know.
I've assembled PSA AR's on Anderson lowers for $400-450. At that price point, its hard to beat. I usually catch their sale on the uppers with stainless or melonite barrels. For casual range and 3gun, they work just fine. Inspection and break-in is up to the buyer. I've bought more than half a dozen PSA uppers in diff configs and calibers with no issues. Not as nice as the Colt6920 or other high end brands, but you are paying way less.
I would prefer a PSA over DPMS, Delton, or any of those poly lowers.
Voodoochild
08-10-17, 17:48
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