LPVO for Military/SOF [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

Alkayus

08-26-17, 21:05

Good evening everyone!
My name is Eric. I am a long time lurker/reader and this is my first post here. I did not notice a Intro page so I apologize if I am breaking any rules not posting one first.
A tiny background on me: I have my first AR purchase recently as well as my first optic (Trijicon VCOG) so basically I don't know my ass from my elbow when it comes to ARs and certainly optics so I could really use some advice.
My brother (he is NSW) has recently mentioned interest in trying out a variable scope on his next deployment and I thought it'd be great to get him one for Christmas. He is on shore duty teaching right now so there is quite a bit of time before he deploys next.
I wanted to get as many opinions as possible because in addition to my lack of knowledge, there is just SO much out there to choose from. So far I have gotten two votes for a VCOG as well as one for the PA Platinum 1-8 (contender with CQBSS?) and the Eotech Vudu 1-6. Others I have been looking at were the Vortex Razor HD Gen II (not sure which reticle would be best for him), MeoTac ZD 1-4 RD, Leupold Mark 6 and the Steiner TX5i. Available funds are $2k.
I was leaning towards the VCOG cause its suppose to be durable and seen a few in use (Jeff Gurwitch, etc), seen a few Vortex's in use as well as Geissle having a SOPMOD approved mount (along with Mark 6, CQBSS and S&B, latter two too rich for my blood lol. To me suggests it's used a lot to warrant one being made), and the Eotech because of the reticle (he uses Eotech holos regularly, ELCAN on SCAR, so thought reticle familiarity would be a nice crossover). Was unsure about the Mark 6 cause of the illumination issues and Tx5i because I wouldn't be able to afford the M model lol. I am also concerned about durability out of everything I have been looking at.
I would say due to the conditions, a daylight visible reticle would be ideal (another check for the Vortex?) and more than likely usable with night vision (unless he just uses a mounted device like PEQ-15). I wasn't sure if maybe 1-4 or 1-5 would be too low a magnification? I know there are so many other choices out there too so I would sincerely appreciate any and all input to help make my decision. Should he not end up liking it, no biggy. I can keep, sell or return (if unused). Also would be a huge help if there are reticle choices to let me know which you think would fit the bill best. I am guessing his range is CQB to Mid? Maybe further in some instances or IDing/ranging.
Thank you everyone in advance for your help :D I hope this is a nice surprise for him. Have a great weekend everyone!

sidewaysil80

08-26-17, 21:14

VCOG, Razor Gen II, and MK6 are the only ones I would feel comfortable using deployed. They are the most overbuilt and most used out of the ones you mentioned, so you know they hold up. The rest imo just don't have the track record to make them viable for use in a deployed scenario.

With that being said I would nix the MK6 due to it's reticle "flicker" and reticle design.

sidewaysil80

08-26-17, 21:14

Double post

ExplorinInTheWoods

08-26-17, 22:20

Titan74

08-27-17, 01:16

Kahles K16i would be my pick. I'm not sure about the NVG compatibility though.

Wake27

08-27-17, 07:02

I've seen the vortex in use more than any other recently, that'd probably be my pick. That being said, I'd really think the teams would be able to get that issued, if they're not already.

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gaijin

08-27-17, 08:09

I've beat up my Steiner 1-4 Military pretty good at the ranch.
It's a boat anchor compared to most commercial LPVs I have, but not any heavier than the PA FFP 1-8.
The Steiner 1-5 might be a good/better choice, I have no experience with one.
I'm not sure what Steiner was thinking in going with the 1-5, rather than the 1-6.
A 1-6 is a substantial leap above a 1-4, while the 1-5 isn't.

Furbyballer

08-27-17, 08:28

So a couple of those options you mentioned only offer bdc reticles. Do you know the gun this optic will be placed on your brothers ammo choice? Barnes 70 grain tsx for example. If not, then a mrad reticle is what I would recommend so he can tailor the drops to his guns velocity and round.

A couple off the top of my head with great glass, durability, and mrad reticles would be the razor 1-6 mrad, kahles 1-6 sm1, a used uso sr-4c, Leopold mk6 tmr-d, and the trijicon accupower 1-8 mrad with red reticle.

If you know he's rocking a 16in gun then by all means look into a refurb or a demo Steiner mil 1-5 or a mk6 with cmr, vcog ect...

I have owned a PA platinum 1-8 and sold it. It was heavy as **** and I'm not sure I would trust it for heavy use. Same goes with the Steiner tx series. Just too many qc problems coming out of their shop right now.

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ExplorinInTheWoods

08-27-17, 09:03

He'll be limited to m855a1 for deployments. It's faster than m855 so it will be a little bit different from BDC's out there but not too much off. The accupower 1-8 is an awesome scope, I have one on my 3gun rifle and I love it. Red is legit daylight bright. It's a hair lighter than a razor and I prefer the reticle. It's held up so far through like 6 matches and I don't expect it to crap out on me. Battery life is short though.

Singlestack Wonder

08-27-17, 10:50

Out of the ones listed, my preference is the Leupold MK6. I believe those have been issued to troops for a while.

GTF425

08-27-17, 14:13

Razor 1-6 with MRAD reticle.

He will very likely use an LA-5 (PEQ-15 on roids) with NODs, so I wouldn't stress the night vision reticle aspect. If he's running a PVS-24, absolutely get the Geissele 30mm mount. It perfectly aligns the Razor 1-6 with a 24.

Alkayus

08-27-17, 14:44

Thank you very much for the input everyone, I really appreciate it.
It seems the two I keep getting pointed back to the most are the VCOG and Razor, with a tad more weight towards the Razor.
Explorininthewoods, thank you. I have seen your videos on YouTube and they were a lot of help. The Accupower was one I was looking at at one point too, but wasn't sure about the durability (compared to the others listed) and especially the battery power (like 31 hours on middle setting?).
GTF425, thank you for the optic and reticle choice. I was curious if Mils or the JM would be best. When playing around with Strelok I was surprised how easily it was to get the JM to work with many different loads, but wasn't sure about the ability to range at all. Should I go this route (seems more likely every day), I would definitely use the money savings over the VCOG to get him the Geissele mount too.
I had mentioned the MeoTac ZD 1-4x RD because I Had read military and contractors had used it, and was something of a "poor mans" Shot Dot lol. Is the Short Dot still as popular today given what is available? The Razor seems to fit nicely in a similar capacity; red dot brightness, huge field of view, reticle choice, and even though SFP, seems like youd end up ranging and IDing in max magnification anywho.
Thank you again guys, its much appreciated. I apologize if my responses aren't super prompt due to work (I have shift work so I get on at odd times).
Out of all the reticles available, would you all suggest sticking with Mil? Like I had mentioned, playing with different reticles on Strelok I was very surprised at the JM-1 BDC compared to other BDCs (especially Trijicon). Was pretty on for a lot of loads (with maybe a slight elevation adjustment for some. Same with the Eotech Vudu), but I worry if he'd need the ranging possibilities of a Mil reticle?
Thanks again guys. When I get this for him, I will certainly say its from not only myself but M4Carbine as well :)

GTF425

08-27-17, 15:06

The JM-1 is a great reticle and works well with A1. From a logistics standpoint, he's stuck with a 50/200 zero if he intends to actually use the BDC. If he doesn't have access to a range that would allow that, it won't do him any good. But if he can, then it's a fast reticle that makes hits out to 600 yards like cheating. And before all this "But the BDC doesn't match" bullshit, he'll more than be able to make hits out to 600 regardless of what ammo he's feeding it.

I prefer the MRAD solely for the fact that he can run whatever zero he wants and learn his holds based on that. The fact that it can range is just a bonus. If he doesn't have a need for ranging outside of "got some shitheads about 300 meters at our 12", then the JM-1 will work well and would be the better choice, honestly. It's a great reticle and is very fast on target.

Ranging, outside of sniper and recce work, is almost always done in 50 yard increments and comes from experience and intuition more than calculating a mil relation.

The Short Dot is pretty long in the tooth. While revolutionary when it came out, the original customer made the jump to the Razor for a reason. I wouldn't even consider one today.

GTF425

08-27-17, 15:07

*duplicate post*

Alkayus

08-27-17, 18:14

Thank you again! I will find out his range options/availability. Never knew that about the ranging. Sounds like if he has the zeroing ability the JM-1 would be the way to go.

Mr. Goodtimes

08-27-17, 18:20

Alkayus

08-27-17, 18:28

The VCOG has been proven on deployments by stukas, the razors are getting issued, the mk6's have been used too. I personally like my VCOG and would like to have one for my work gun. I will say that the VCOG is not as bright as it could be but I prefer the reticle over the razor and mk6. I don't like how small the 1x reticle is on the mk6 and the flicker drives me crazy, my buddy has one. The razor has a great field of view but I'm not crazy on the reticle. I agree with sideways that those are the ones I would roll with. I like the VCOG reticle the best.

Given your experience with the VCOG, which reticle do you think would be more advantageous for him, the horseshoe or segmented circle? I have the horseshoe myself but the Segmented Circle almost seems to have a better field of view when zooming in on the target.

Alkayus

08-27-17, 18:34

double post

Alkayus

08-27-17, 18:36

If this guy is a real deal NSW face shooter, why does his brother need to waste his money on an LPV as a gift? His unit doesn't have quality LPV's in inventory or can't order it up? I'm genuinely curious as I don't know how the acquisition process works at that level.

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Because I thought it would be a nice gift. I hadn't been able to get him something as I was planning to since he passed everything a few years back.
I am also sure he can get something far better than I can for him via whatever outlet he has available. He didn't ask me to get him one. He had mentioned it in a conversation we had that he was thinking of trying one out so it gave me this idea. Should he not want/need or wants better, I'd understand and just keep/return/sell it.

GTF425

08-27-17, 18:59

Thank you again! I will find out his range options/availability. Never knew that about the ranging. Sounds like if he has the zeroing ability the JM-1 would be the way to go.

Unless guys have memorized common target sizes and can spit a mil relation formula from memory, they aren't ranging shit with a reticle. But it does work well on a static range with a fixed size steel target...

It's blown way out of proportion on the internet. Even after RSLC, I was guesstimating to within 50 yards in contact with just my eyes and experience. Even though we were stuck using our mismatched BDC ACOGs, we were still making good hits and taming savages.

Singlestack Wonder

08-27-17, 19:33

The kahles illumination adjustment is easily moved when bumping into something as there are no detents. Something kahles got wrong. Ok for gun games but not for serious use.

GTF425

08-27-17, 19:50

Ok for gun games but not for serious use.

I think Dano's use of a Kahles is a little more serious than most of us would ever use it for.

Alkayus

08-27-17, 19:59

From a former Team guy who has used varible optics extensively in combat, the Khales 1-6 is far and away the best scope in class. Large useable eyebox for dynamic shooting. Daylight bright reticle. Mil-based Sm-1 reticle is very usable. From 25m to 900m, day and with Night vision I2 & thermal, it has worked spectaculary well.

Lighter, better glass and reticle than the Razor II
Much better eyebox and reticle than the 1-6x Luepy

http://www.eurooptic.com/kahles-k-61-6x24-illuminated-sm1-reticle.aspx

If he is not sniper trained, pm me, I will make predictive data holds for 14.5 and 16" (recce) with issue ammo.

Include extra batteries cr2032 IIRC

Thank you, I have sent you a PM sir.

Titan74

08-28-17, 01:49

Here's a good review on Kahles K16i: http://www.westernshooter.com/2014/09/kahles-k16i-1-6x24-sm1-review.html

If you are on a budget, you might be able to save a bit by going with Swarovski Z6i 1-6x with BRT-i reticle. It is optically the same scope, but without the tactical features. The Z6i has been very highly regarded scope in 3gun for a long time.

ExplorinInTheWoods

08-28-17, 04:58

For the VCOG I prefer the segmented circle, they have also brought out one that uses mils instead of only a BDC. I would suggest getting mils/mrad over a BDC because BDC's are designed for a certain round fired from a certain barrel although they can be pretty close.

Singlestack Wonder

08-28-17, 08:42

I have not found this to be true with either scope, w/o detents, I have used extensively. Khales 1-6x or Luepy 3-18x (shockingly specified for SOCOM w/o detent illum).

To be more specific the Khales has an on/off detent, and firm turn tension.

What is more important is the tension required to turn the knob and the shape of the knobs edges (will it catch).

Please clarify....has the kahles actually been issued for teams to use in the field? Leupold MK6 (both 1-6x and 3-18x) has and to a degree the Vcog as well.

pinzgauer

08-28-17, 08:57

Not as much fun to talk about, but based on my experience supporting a medium-speed soldier in the field, I'd be thinking gift certificates for tactical Taylor or mystery ranch rather than tac hard parts like scopes.

More chance of filling a gap, and less of getting him something that he can't use or is issued something better.

They have pretty decent access to weapons related gear, but have to buy any non-issue soft gear on their own.

Even small things like the exact radio pouch they need has a big impact during field time.

Outlander Systems

08-28-17, 11:33

His response was pretty clear.

Reading is fundamental.

Please clarify....has the kahles actually been issued for teams to use in the field? Leupold MK6 (both 1-6x and 3-18x) has and to a degree the Vcog as well.

Eurodriver

08-28-17, 12:01

His response was pretty clear.

Reading is fundamental.

Vetted SME, with 5236 in his freaking username, dropping knowledge about an optic used to shoot faces and someone chimes in that it's only good for gaming. Only on the internet man...

Dano, thanks for your insight and sharing your experiences with us.

Singlestack Wonder

08-28-17, 12:14

Biggy

08-28-17, 12:17

The Kahles illumination adjustment on *my* K16i is fairly stiff to turn and the odds for moving it any or a little by bumping it is virtually zero to none. Also, the guy who had input on the K16i scope when it was being designed used to be the the head at Nightforce and helped build its reputation for making tuff scopes, so I absolutely have no doubt about the Kahles ruggedness.

Firefly

08-28-17, 12:36

My question refers to actual being issued for military use. He did not specify that the kahles had been issued like the Leupold and Vcog offerings and (in other's words) used to shoot faces.

Dano, please clarify...

He specified about the optic and his application. He really doesn't need to "clarify" what he has used as a Navy SEAL beyond he had a choice, chose it, used, and was willing to help the op with charts for his brother.

People in his line of work can get what they want. It doesn't matter about it "being issued".

I think we can call this one "asked and answered".

GTF425

08-28-17, 12:42

My question refers to actual being issued for military use. He did not specify that the kahles had been issued like the Leupold and Vcog offerings and (in other's words) used to shoot faces.

Dano, please clarify...

For what it's worth, there are plenty of optics "issued" by means of unit level purchases. I was just a Super Dooper Paratrooper and I was issued shit that the internet says I wasn't.

Not speaking for Dano, but his qualifications are in his username given he was a member of the same community as the OP's brother. He shouldn't have to elaborate beyond "it's a solid optic", because being "issued" at the service-wide level or not is a moot point.

Singlestack Wonder

08-28-17, 12:44

He specified about the optic and his application. He really doesn't need to "clarify" what he has used as a Navy SEAL beyond he had a choice, chose it, used, and was willing to help the op with charts for his brother.

People in his line of work can get what they want. It doesn't matter about it "being issued".

I think we can call this one "asked and answered".

I'm aware of his background.....just asking a question for clarification. Learn to read and if you have credible information to answer the question with, please post.

Singlestack Wonder

08-28-17, 13:05

Geez, I wonder why people with substantive expertise avoid these jag off echo chamber forums.

To be perfectly clear, I have carried, in combat, the following variable optics a S&B Short Dot 1-4 & 1-8x, 5-25x - Luepy 1-5x, 1-6x, 1.1-8x, 3-18x, 5-25x, Bushnell 1-6x, 4.5-30x, Vortex 1-6x, Nightforce 2.5-10, 4-16x, 5-25x. I am confident in my assement of the utility of a wide range of optics. Additionally, having wrote requirements and later been an advisor on the development of combat optics and electrico optics I have an idea of what's under the hood of most anything individuals can purchase and most definitely on what individuals cannot.

Singlestack, nowhere did the original poster specify military aquisitions process and I am unsure and uncaring as to the reason for your odd stumble in this direction. Military aquisitions either at a programatic level.. the parent service: USN, USA, USMC, SOCOM, The various rapid fielding inititives, CTTSO, NSWC Crane's odd ball purchases, or specific Unit, Squadron, or troop purchases, or the discreationary funds attached to each component all the way back up the line.... are a bit out of scope for a forum post.

If I see another post that may be relevant to an actual warfighter, I will respond. Otherwise, the poseur weewee contest is a bit tiresome.

Have the best day ever!

Thank you for answering the question and for your service.

Our weekly training group has two former Rangers, one former UDT team member (yep old guy), and a former Marine who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. No attitudes, just a wealth of information if asked. In asking for clarification for an answer, posters who have no relevant information chime in to attempt to shame me for asking an SME to clarify a statement. The poseur weewee comment was juvenile at best.

As many others have stated, this forum has continued to go downhill over the years. Where it was once the #1 source for knowledge on serious firearms use topics, its devolved almost to the level of general firearms forums.

Good bye.....

jpmuscle

08-28-17, 13:23

Dano,

Thank you for your service and obliging us with your expertise and knowledge. It is greatly appreciated.

Alkayus

08-28-17, 16:04

Thank you everyone for your help and input, it was a great help and I learned new things which is always good :)
Thank you Dano5326 for your expertise and service. I am sure this optic will be great for him.

Furbyballer

08-29-17, 11:31

So are you going with the kahles? its an awesome scope. I own 2 of them and agree with everything that Dano said.

SeriousStudent

08-29-17, 20:36

Singlestack Wonder, your participation here has ended. As you said - goodbye.

Dano5326 - thank you for the recommendation. I have been saving up for an LPV myself, and appreciate your advice.

JoshNC

08-29-17, 23:43

Never mind. Just read the whole thread. Dano's recs re: K16i are great. I have nothing worth adding.

titsonritz

08-30-17, 14:37

Dano5326 - thank you for the recommendation. I have been saving up for an LPV myself, and appreciate your advice.

Yes thank you very much, I too have been saving up for and researching LPV, you just changed my mind.

Jwknutson17

08-30-17, 14:43

Dano,

Any experience with the Minox ZP8 Tac 1-8 ? I have heard great things, but never had hands on.

titsonritz

08-30-17, 18:04

Vetted SME, with 5236 in his freaking username, dropping knowledge about an optic used to shoot faces and someone chimes in that it's only good for gaming. Only on the internet man...

Dano, thanks for your insight and sharing your experiences with us.

Please forgive my ignorance, but out of curiosity what is 5236?

Furbyballer

08-30-17, 18:09

It's the navy's nec for seals.

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titsonritz

08-30-17, 18:13

It's the navy's nec for seals.

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Thank you, learn something everyday.

Alkayus

08-31-17, 14:18

So are you going with the kahles? its an awesome scope. I own 2 of them and agree with everything that Dano said.

Affirmative, going to get him the Khales. All the talk about how great they are along with the source (Mr. Dano), its tempting to sell my VCOG and get one for myself lol.
Thanks again for the input everyone. I hope this thread doesn't stop as I feel perhaps others may be interested in a similar setup for themselves and we could get a variety of info on different combat worthy scopes in different price ranges.

jstalford

08-31-17, 14:22

Dude I haven't messed with a vcog, but I bet if you look through his you will get one. k16i is so nice.

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ejb3

08-31-17, 14:37

Sample list has two k16I's available, demos, in like new condition for $1750.

https://samplelist.com/catalog/product/view/id/139133/

Alkayus

08-31-17, 15:14

Dude I haven't messed with a vcog, but I bet if you look through his you will get one. k16i is so nice.

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I'm sure, lol. The VCOG is my first foray with an optic. Seems good to me, clear, but I have nothing to base it on or compare to. I have a feeling though, especially reading around, there are better options. Luckily I got it for a good price.

Alkayus

08-31-17, 15:14

Sample list has two k16I's available, demos, in like new condition for $1750.

https://samplelist.com/catalog/product/view/id/139133/

Thank you very much, I appreciate that!

ssc

08-31-17, 20:12

Dano, Thank you for your service and contribution to this thread. It has been very helpful and has helped me to make an informed decision on my next scope purchase.

Just a comment, my understanding is that it is "SEAL" not seal. If my understanding is incorrect, Dano feel free to correct me. Back to my lane.

Cheers, SSC

specialk

09-02-17, 08:29

I would highly recommend the SM1 mil-hash reticle for military use, or other savvy users who will be limited by a BDC.

The SM1 has 0.5 mil hash marks? If so, that's maybe the biggest advantage over the Vortex Razor. That and weight.

irondude

09-04-17, 13:24

Alkayus

09-04-17, 15:24

I don't know that I can add much, other than I do own both the Kahles K16i and a Razor HD II 1-6. In my non-military use. The Kales is my favorite. The only thing the Razor wins at is price. The deal posted above is pretty sweet, but personally I would rather have the SM1 reticle.

OP, I am sure your brother will appreciate such a thoughtful gift. Good on you, very cool!

Thank you, I appreciate that.
Yeah, I am really considering the Vortex Razor for myself. Wish I had enough to get a K16i for myself too lol. Hear nothing but praise. Also saw some pictures of the SM1 reticle illuminated in a room, looks so crisp and nice.

Slippers

09-13-17, 14:01

I figured I would give a K16i SM1 a try. Arrived today. Reticle is canted clockwise significantly, detectable with the naked eye. It's going back. Ridiculous for a $2000 optic.

Furbyballer

09-13-17, 15:03

Sorry to hear that. I would definitely try and exchange it because it is definitely worth it. I own 3 and love them.

Mrgunsngear

09-13-17, 21:29

I figured I would give a K16i SM1 a try. Arrived today. Reticle is canted clockwise significantly, detectable with the naked eye. It's going back. Ridiculous for a $2000 optic.

Agreed there.

Alkayus

09-14-17, 19:36

I figured I would give a K16i SM1 a try. Arrived today. Reticle is canted clockwise significantly, detectable with the naked eye. It's going back. Ridiculous for a $2000 optic.

That's disheartening. I certainly hope they can replace without a hassle...

jstalford

09-14-17, 19:53

My experience with their customer service was stellar and it was a voluntary upgrade. I'm sure they'll take care of it.

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Slippers

09-25-17, 20:21

Alkayus

09-25-17, 20:24

Swarovski sent me a new scope right away and followed up with a return label for the original. I'm very pleased with their responsiveness.

I shot it today and was surprised how good the SM1 reticle is. The design doesn't need illumination to be effective, even against mixed color targets. The huge field of view at 1x is also great for use on this:

https://i.imgur.com/enSRZYG.jpg

Very cool to hear. Thank you for that update. Makes me all the more comfortable getting it for my brother knowing he'd be taken care of well.
Also, that is an awesome looking firearm you have there haha. Forgive my ignorance, but what is it?

Slippers

09-25-17, 20:40

Very cool to hear. Thank you for that update. Makes me all the more comfortable getting it for my brother knowing he'd be taken care of well.
Also, that is an awesome looking firearm you have there haha. Forgive my ignorance, but what is it?

It's a US made clone of the HK 23E, which is a belt fed 5.56mm. The fun and really fun selector settings do work. :)

Surprisingly accurate as well, since the barrel is fully free floated. We shoot it out to 550 yards, which is why I wanted the 1-6x variable on top. I was using the Trijicon 1-8 before, but it's nice to drop the weight and get a much better reticle.

steyrman13

10-05-17, 21:13

Does anyone have experience with the eotech vudu 1-6?

Zane1844

10-05-17, 23:52

Interesting thread, I have been interested in the Kahles. I have used the Vortex and Leupold 1-6x, I preferred the Leupold, for whatever reason the SFP reticle bothers me. Which is drawing me toward the VCOG.

wickedyz

10-06-17, 07:07

Slippers

10-06-17, 07:56

I spoke to a gentlemen who sells a pretty good amount of scopes. He said that 3 out of 4 Kahles 1-6 scopes were coming back to get warranty work. A lot of them were having issues with the crosshairs canting after recoil, usually within the first couple hundred of rounds. At this point I would not look at it as a duty level optic. Vortex is SOPMOD tested and approved and would be my choice if it was going on a duty gun.

Honestly, I'm not surprised, considering my first one was canted when I received it. My replacement K16i has held up to over 1000 rounds of full auto through my belt fed, so I'd say it's fine.