View Full Version : Dedicated 22LR upper or conversion kit?
With the cost of ammo going up and the economy going sideways I have been considering a dedicated .22LR upper. Are these better then drop in kits? What are the pros and cons of both systems.
What is the consensus of the board on manufactures and models of both uppers and magazines for it?
Thanks for the feedback.
For Mags, Black Dog Machine mags are the way to go (and might be the only way to go, as far as I know). Ciener makes mags, too, but his are not nearly as good...
If you go with a dedicated upper, you get a more advantageous twist rate that is better matched to the .22LR round (1 in 12, I think?), plus a bore size that is better matched to the .22LR round.
And you no longer have a gas tube for any .22LR junk to get into, if that is a concern.
The downside, of course, is that a dedicated upper usually costs over twice as much as a drop in kit.
Do the Black Dog mags function in a Ciener kit? I have found a used kit locally and will probably buy it. It only has one 10rd magazine and I have heard that dealing with Ciener is a PITA and the mags are $100 on Gunbroker:eek:.
yes, they work fine. there are a couple generations though. make sure you get new ones
I highly recommend you look at the Tactical Solutions .22LR uppers. You can purchase from them online or from G&R Tactical. They use Black Dog Mags.
S/F
i too have been driving myself crazy with this debate. i just bought a ciener kit from an online retailer after reading about JAC customer service. i was worried about the gas tube build up etc. with the drop in units and after firing 300 plus rounds through the drop in and only 3 FTF/FTE light primer strikes i am glad i saved myself the cost of a dedicated upper. i fired two .223 rounds after my 22lr. fest and blew the junk out of my gas tube. i did spray the ciener unit down with break free before firing it and worked the action thrice before shooting. i also recommend loading your BDM mags 24 hours before your range trip as they were very tough to fully load first time out, YMMV. they did get much easier after 2-3 reloads each mag and functioned flawlessly. if you are on the fence about the purchase i say go for the ciener and make up the difference in BDM mags and 22.ir / .223 ammo. HTH
forgot to mention, i was shooting wal-mart federal bulk pack HP ammo. 55o round packs $14.00 :D
Lakeside Machine had a clearance sale going on LM7 belt-fed .22LR upper receivers a while back and I think it might still be going on now.
Of course, they're best when mounted on a full-auto lower of some sort.... ;)
Yeah, I bought one.
No, I haven't shot it yet.
I just figured it was the only belt-fed machine gun I can actually afford to feed. :eek:
uscbigdawg
10-08-08, 23:31
I used to run a CZ V-22 upper. Had the big mags from Black Dog Machine and it ran like a champ. I switched to the Nordic AR-22 chasis system and will tell you that it is WAY, WAY better.
Find a donor 10/22 and buy the chasis system and go!
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d18/uscbigdawg/DSC00574.jpg
Rich
I used to run a CZ V-22 upper. Had the big mags from Black Dog Machine and it ran like a champ. I switched to the Nordic AR-22 chasis system and will tell you that it is WAY, WAY better.
Find a donor 10/22 and buy the chasis system and go!
Rich
I agree this is a great way to go, and is especially appealing if you're already well familiar with 10/22's, have an existing one that you could pillage the action and trigger group off of, and have a bunch of 10/22 mags on hand. Going this route keeps you compatible with your 10/22's without having to get into a new type of mags. See GotM4's new Nordic rig in the "Custom Builds" section, he's got some nice pics as well.
I've got a dedicated Spike's .22 and love it. After break in with about 500 rounds (when I only had a few FTE's/FTF's), I haven't had a single issue. Only put Federal Bulk Pack through it, which works for me given the price.
I opted for the Spikes Dedicated 22 Upper as well. I wanted to be able to have some cheap practice with my AR Lower without giving up the accuracy I would get with the conversion kits in the AR Upper.
These groups were fired using a cheapo 4X scope and Federal Bulk ammo. The GSG-5 groups used the same ammo but with a cheap red dot.
I have a DPMS .22 Bull Barrel Upper receiver that I want to sell can anyone suggest a good place to advertise it. I haven't been able to find a website that seems right for this item.
I used to run a CZ V-22 upper. Had the big mags from Black Dog Machine and it ran like a champ. I switched to the Nordic AR-22 chasis system and will tell you that it is WAY, WAY better.
Find a donor 10/22 and buy the chasis system and go!
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d18/uscbigdawg/DSC00574.jpg
Rich
Outside of the differences in controls and trigger, does the nordic AR-22 feel pretty close to an actual AR-15? I like the idea of having an AR in .22, but I have concerns about getting parts for it down the road if something breaks. Having a 10/22 as the base would mean a reliable gun with plenty of spare parts.
uscbigdawg
11-11-08, 08:46
Exactly why I did it. Keep the spare parts for the rifles doing "big bang" work.
Rich
Hi guys lucky you have such choice, over here in the uk we dont have, if you want
a semi/auto rifle then .22 is all you get, .223 in straight pull, load one shoot one
and our choice is even less. BUT !! i have just brought this its a sabre defence lower ( they are also supplied by dpms and spike but i couldnt wait ) tactical solutions upper with a sabre defence rail, ( see pic ) comes supplied with black dog mags which cycle with no problems at all 27 or 10 rnd in clear, smoke or black just this minute ordered 2 more from brownells feels like its big brother and using cci mini mags feels well balanced not quite like the m4 but its all weve got, highly recommended
Seems to me that the dedicated upper is the way to go. Especially if you are wanting to recreate the same experience while shooting it. And there are a lot of companies now offering this like Model 1 Sales, Spikes, Tactical Solutions etc. Plus with the 16" twist rates you are going to get a much more accurate shot, and don't forget about the fouling from all the lead.
jasonhgross
11-12-08, 11:44
No, get the conversion kit. That way you get to use the same sights you have on your main rifles without investing in sights/optics for your .22LR specific upper.
No, get the conversion kit. That way you get to use the same sights you have on your main rifles without investing in sights/optics for your .22LR specific upper.
This is what I finally figured out (with the help of this forum and others) before I ordered my CMMG conversion (not here yet). Not only can I use the same sights, but the same everything. I would hate to put a DD Omega on a 22LR upper so it would be the exactly the same as my 5.56 upper.
That said, it if works, and the reports are that the CMMG does, it is way less money than a dedicated upper. Yeah, I know, it won't shoot sub 1" groups out of a 5.56 barrel but if that was my goal I'd be shooting a good bolt action target rifle anyway.
Spikes-Rep
12-07-08, 16:45
A dedicated upper is definitly the best way to go.
-Tom
jasonhgross
12-07-08, 20:19
A dedicated upper is definitly the best way to go.
-Tom
Please explain you think a complete upper is better? Because it costs more or because we have to purchase all the other accouterments (eg: optic) to match the .223 rifle we all usually shoot?
Spikes-Rep
12-07-08, 21:37
Please explain you think a complete upper is better? Because it costs more or because we have to purchase all the other accouterments (eg: optic) to match the .223 rifle we all usually shoot?
The dedicated upper has the proper chamber and twist rate. A drop in conversion is ok but it wont ever be as accurate or reliable as a dedicated upper.
i agree that the dedicated upper is the way to go, but i used the drop in for a long time before getting one and i haven't noticed a change in reliability.
out of curiosity, what's wrong with the chamber in the conversion kit?
The dedicated upper has the proper chamber and twist rate. A drop in conversion is ok but it wont ever be as accurate or reliable as a dedicated upper.
Has i mentioned before over here in the uk it we want a ar/m4 semi auto then it has to be .22, from years ago i had a very early ar15 a1 before the bolt forward assist model ( yeah i really am that old ) with a drop in 22 conversion, and as spike says it will never shoot the same as a dedicated upper, i found that the twist rate was to fast for the 22 bullet, the .223 barrel is a larger dia than a .22 barrel so bullet never really stabalises, and point of aim wont be the same for your sights red dot, scope or irons so unless you want to adjust your expensive state of the art sights every time you drop in the conversion then you will have to work with two sets of sight pictures.
but i wish i had that choice lets hope you still do next year !!! happy shooting for now and a happy xmas to you all over
there, santa may bring you that 22 upper just get identicle sights put on it.
jasonhgross
12-09-08, 09:14
The dedicated upper has the proper chamber and twist rate. A drop in conversion is ok but it wont ever be as accurate or reliable as a dedicated upper.
The advantages you mention regarding a dedicated upper do not outweigh the positives of the drop in kit. Besides cost, the drop in kit allows the use of the same exact AR, with its optic and accessories that a complet upper does not. If I was going for ultimate accuracy in a 22LR I would not go with an AR platform anyway. I am going for the best training I can at the lowest cost without diminishing the accuracy to a point where I cannot adequately train. The drop in kits are very reliable with the black dog magazines, are cost effective, and are delivered on time when ordered through the right sources. Also, they are more portable to the range than an additional upper. Another bonus in training.
A dedicated 22 rifle is even better. A 10/22 is what they call them.
Innocent_bystander from TOS built a sweet dedicated AR with all that blackdog stuff and everything. Once he FINALLY got all the bugs worked out it was a really cool setup.
But in the big picture.... WHY?
So you can spend a thousand bucks on a dedicated rifle to save money on ammo? There's only so much rimfire you can shoot before you have to man up and fire some centerfire!
(But if people have the cash and like tinkering.... God bless them!)
jasonhgross
12-09-08, 09:42
A dedicated 22 rifle is even better. A 10/22 is what they call them.
Innocent_bystander from TOS built a sweet dedicated AR with all that blackdog stuff and everything. Once he FINALLY got all the bugs worked out it was a really cool setup.
But in the big picture.... WHY?
So you can spend a thousand bucks on a dedicated rifle to save money on ammo? There's only so much rimfire you can shoot before you have to man up and fire some centerfire!
Hence the .22 drop in kit. Its the simplest solution that achieves the goal.
The advantages you mention regarding a dedicated upper do not outweigh the positives of the drop in kit. Besides cost, the drop in kit allows the use of the same exact AR, with its optic and accessories that a complet upper does not. If I was going for ultimate accuracy in a 22LR I would not go with an AR platform anyway. I am going for the best training I can at the lowest cost without diminishing the accuracy to a point where I cannot adequately train. The drop in kits are very reliable with the black dog magazines, are cost effective, and are delivered on time when ordered through the right sources. Also, they are more portable to the range than an additional upper. Another bonus in training.
My conclusions as well.
As everyone has different needs, wants, and budgets there is no perfect answer. I'm fairly familiar with both the drop in units and dedicated uppers. If the budget is tight then a drop in conversion is a good option. If you don't mind paying more you can get a dedicated unit and configure it like your primary weapon.
I chose to go with dedicated builds that I completed myself. The M4ish is fun, but the 6" w/suppressors is a bit more fun.
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4761/cimg0603wp4.jpg
Have to agree with DrBaker. The dedicated is awesome if you can afford it but I like my kit. Only problem is it seems to have feeding issues every couple of rounds. Will get back to you once I have polished the ramp a bit. Other than that no problems and the gas tubes are easily cleaned out after firing a .223 through it. Works great with my AAC M42000 too ;).
-Goober
P.s. DrBaker those are some badass little toys you got there :)
I have a buddy that bought a ciener kit and he was using the federal bulk pack, and every once in awhile it would go full auto for about 4 or 5 rounds. He started using different ammo (i dont remember what ammo) and it stopped doing it.
I've fired 850 rounds of Federal Walmart bulk ammo over 4 outings with one failure to extract with my CMMG conversion kit. Yes, it might not be as accurate as a dedicated Spikes or TacSol upper, but I can keep 25 shots from a mag dump at 50 yards in a 6" circle. At $175, it's already paid for itself, and I can't recommend it highly enough.
Spikes' unit is also worth looking at since it's nickel or chrome plated for roughly the same cost.
CarlosDJackal
01-31-09, 00:48
As far as a drop-in conversion kit not being accurate enough, I shot 10-rounds into a quarter-sized group at 25-feet out of a 10-inch, 1/7-twist barrel. The darn things are a lot more accurate than most anyone an a lot cheaper to shoot!!
I'd love to get a dedicated upper. Personally, I feel that spending the same amount on an upper than can only shoot .22LR as a 5.56 upper that can shoot .223, 5.56, and .22LR is just plane foolish.
The only reason I would even consider getting a dedicated .22LR upper is if I plan on using my .22 suppressor on it. Otherwise, I can (and do) use my .223 suppressor with no effects on the accuracy I need. There are at least two (maybe three - one managed to get away despite being wounded) squirrels that can attest to this. YMMV.
Im hesitant to get one of the conversion kits for fear of wearing out my barrel before its time.
I would much rather be able to put 10k .223 through the barrel than say 5k .223 and 10k .22 before the barrels lifespan is up.
I dont know if my logic is sound but i would much rather buy a separate upper and not worry about its "fighting effectiveness" than have a barrel that may reach its "shot out" point when i need it most.
Does that make sense?
Im hesitant to get one of the conversion kits for fear of wearing out my barrel before its time.
I would much rather be able to put 10k .223 through the barrel than say 5k .223 and 10k .22 before the barrels lifespan is up.
I dont know if my logic is sound but i would much rather buy a separate upper and not worry about its "fighting effectiveness" than have a barrel that may reach its "shot out" point when i need it most.
Does that make sense?
I've never, even on the internet, seen a shot out .22LR barrel. .22LR moves to slow and is too soft to wear out barrels within any significant amount of time.
I've never, even on the internet, seen a shot out .22LR barrel. .22LR moves to slow and is too soft to wear out barrels within any significant amount of time.
Even after say 30k rounds?
Given the cheaper cost of .22LR i would imagine that quite a few people out there would be putting insane amounts of rounds through their barrels.
Force-Recon
02-23-09, 09:20
With the cost of ammo going up and the economy going sideways I have been considering a dedicated .22LR upper. Are these better then drop in kits? What are the pros and cons of both systems.
What is the consensus of the board on manufactures and models of both uppers and magazines for it?
Thanks for the feedback.
I went with a dedicated upper from Model 1 and set it up the same as my GO TO GUN. I wanted the Spikes but did not want to wait for it come out. Now I can practice all I want and I don't have to go into 5.56 ammo stash. Also I don't have to put the ware on my GTG. For me it was the best way to go.
F-R
I think it just comes down to how much you want to spend man. Either way you will spend more on ammo than the actual accessories. The gun is the cheap part I always tell people who are thinking of starting shooting.
-Goober
Do the Black Dog mags function in a Ciener kit? I have found a used kit locally and will probably buy it. It only has one 10rd magazine and I have heard that dealing with Ciener is a PITA and the mags are $100 on Gunbroker:eek:.
Black Dog Machine and the owners of Tacsol have formed a new company' Black Dog Magazine' www.blackdogmag.com
they work on Tactical Solutions, Ceiner, CMMG, Spike's Tactical, Olympic Arms and most all others
They work in mine just fine.
-Goober
As I only have 1 AR I went with the JAC kit and have been pleased with it.
I have been able to teach my 2 stepsons and my wife the basic functions and manual of arms of the AR wep system with some differences obviously.
After just one range/teaching session they where at least comfortable and knowledgeable about the rifle, they where safe with the rifle also.
All in all for the shooting we have done on several range sessions I could not have shot 5.56 ammo to the same degree, we have put at least 750 rnds through the JAC kit each trip with only 10-20 rnds of 5.56 through the rifle to "blow it out" every 350 22lr rounds or so.
All I do is grease the kit rails and functioning is excellent with only 2 or 3 jams when it starts getting dirty, but those jams serve as training aids also.
All the family and I have to do know is get in a "shoot school" together!
i have been debating going with a upper or a conversion bcg. i think the conversion kit will work just fine for my purposes.
Outside of the differences in controls and trigger, does the nordic AR-22 feel pretty close to an actual AR-15? I like the idea of having an AR in .22, but I have concerns about getting parts for it down the road if something breaks. Having a 10/22 as the base would mean a reliable gun with plenty of spare parts.
"Parts" are not a problem with the Nordic. The internals... receiver, bolt, barrel, trigger group, and all of the 'go-fast' parts, are all standard Ruger 10/22 parts.
Not sure who has the 'bigger' aftermarket industry, but the Ruger 10/22 and the AR15 are probably close in size and scope.
Doubt that? Look here: http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/index.php
The Nordic 'chassis' is a machined aluminum part that accepts a standard 10/22 receiver and TG inside.
The outside accepts all AR furniture. No problem getting those parts either. ;)
http://homepage.mac.com/kevinfarrell/.Pictures/Nordic%20mock-up/Nordic001.jpg
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