View Full Version : "You Reach For That Gun, I’ll Blow Your Brains Out’ "
I'll bet $ some anti LE group will find fault with this cops response, but they were the same color, so at least we know it will get no/minimal coverage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=95&v=4v8Vw3yEBz4
Perp was a pillar of society...
https://bluelivesmatter.blue/video-jonathon-mccoy-jason-hoops-shooting/
I have some relevant questions before I offer any opinion:
-What was exact PC for stop?
-Was subject an expressly prohibited person?
-Was a body cam in play?
-Was subject making an overtly furtive gesture to reach for weapon or was officer having tunnel vision?
-What was the totality and scope of stop? Active warrants/ARS/Suspended tag/etc. What was officer's initial goal? If making ARS field investigation, why not have additional units en route already?
I wasn't thrilled with how he was hugging up on the van. That's my only real criticism of the officer at this point.
That and he did not have command of his subjects.
Beyond that, I really need to know more as this video raises more questions than answers.
I have some relevant questions before I offer any opinion:
-What was exact PC for stop?
-Was subject an expressly prohibited person?
-Was a body cam in play?
-Was subject making an overtly furtive gesture to reach for weapon or was officer having tunnel vision?
-What was the totality and scope of stop? Active warrants/ARS/Suspended tag/etc. What was officer's initial goal? If making ARS field investigation, why not have additional units en route already?
I wasn't thrilled with how he was hugging up on the van. That's my only real criticism of the officer at this point.
That and he did not have command of his subjects.
Beyond that, I really need to know more as this video raises more questions than answers.
More intel a the link posted.
I didnt see link.
Actually I googled for the shooting
He was a two time felon dope boy and while I dont put much faith in hearsay he apparently did allegedly say he'd fight to get out of prison.
But the officer is a rookie and got lucky. That could have gone way, way worse for him.
I don't think it was a bad shoot, but were I that officer's supervisor; I would be signing him up for Officer Suvival and Felony Stop classes as soon as he was cleared.
That was not skill. That was luck. I dont like luck nor Jesus taking the wheel.
I saw this thread title and thought it was going to be about SecDef Mattis speaking to North Korea.
I saw this thread title and thought it was going to be about SecDef Mattis speaking to North Korea.
I wish. Didn't sound very strong worded to me other than to say we have the means to defend ourselves and will, and I have no doubts they are well aware of that. Sending a rocket over Japan is an act of war I'd think and we should consider preventing any further rockets from leaving their launch pad (which I believe our satellites can detect within seconds of lifting off) or at least any rocker that gets X distance out of their air space, taken out. "We will not let you run with scissors you fat sack of crap"
I didnt see link.
Actually I googled for the shooting
He was a two time felon dope boy and while I dont put much faith in hearsay he apparently did allegedly say he'd fight to get out of prison.
But the officer is a rookie and got lucky. That could have gone way, way worse for him.
I don't think it was a bad shoot, but were I that officer's supervisor; I would be signing him up for Officer Suvival and Felony Stop classes as soon as he was cleared.
That was not skill. That was luck. I dont like luck nor Jesus taking the wheel.
Not being an LEO, thing that jumped out at me most was his being up so tight to that van. I was wondering if he'd even gone hands on, but his instructions made it clear he had not so they must have been close to face to face. I'd inquire more to your comments above, but understand PERSEC issues as such.
I don't think it was a bad shoot, but were I that officer's supervisor; I would be signing him up for Officer Suvival and Felony Stop classes as soon as he was cleared. I think he did just fine. Maybe took longer than necessary because he's a nice guy.
Nice guys finish dead.
Look at 00:47. Blue car. Man with dog. That's an unknown variable.
Asking pointed questions that subject doesn't have to really answer....alone. With a multiple occupant vehicle.
There's more, but I won't go into it on an open forum.
I will that despite falling back on recruit level training that the officer did survive and on a basic level; he came out of it okay.
I dont like MMQBing anyone but constructively, slightly better tactics before he even approached would have greatly increased his margin of error if not outright avoid having to shoot.
I say more training not as punishment or detriment, but now he knows and would appreciate the knowledge and in more time would have a greater knowledge pool and be a good resource in and of himself.
This was a pass/fail pop quiz. He passed but could have easily failed if everyone else in the vehicle wasn't panicking because dope boy started freelancing.
Dope boy is not even a thought to me. I just hope he hadn't bred yet.
My sympathies and concerns lay squarely on the officer
I think he did just fine. Maybe took longer than necessary because he's a nice guy.
Nice guys finish dead.
You said what I didn't really want to say.
I agree. Hence, not necessarily remedial training but know when its time to say "F it"
Eurodriver
09-03-17, 16:54
So glad you are back, lightning bug.
Averageman
09-03-17, 17:00
The guy was determined to die or kill rather than go back to prison.
So having made up his mind, what choice did he leave the Officer?
dwhitehorne
09-03-17, 20:04
Text book answer are the Graham factors and TN v. Garner
Severity of the crime
Immediacy of a threat
Resisting arrest
Attempting to resist arrest by fleeing
The Deadly Force
Officer had probable cause to believe hius life or others were in danger or escape would cause officer or others to be in jeporardy.
And a warning was given.
The officer had a lot of boxes checked on that scene according to the Supreme Court and stayed fairly calm. He won the fight so I'm thinking good job. Can you tell I just went through use of force training. David
Text book answer are the Graham factors and TN v. Garner
Severity of the crime
Immediacy of a threat
Resisting arrest
Attempting to resist arrest by fleeing
The Deadly Force
Officer had probable cause to believe hius life or others were in danger or escape would cause officer or others to be in jeporardy.
And a warning was given.
The officer had a lot of boxes checked on that scene according to the Supreme Court and stayed fairly calm. He won the fight so I'm thinking good job. Can you tell I just went through use of force training. David
David, I'm not slamming you in any way, or even aiming at you directly, because from what I've read you post on here, you knew that stuff BEFORE you showed up at the training.
What is sad is that many officers wouldn't have had an inkling. And just as many would have spent the training period playing on their phones as would have been paying attention.
David, I'm not slamming you in any way, or even aiming at you directly, because from what I've read you post on here, you knew that stuff BEFORE you showed up at the training.
What is sad is that many officers wouldn't have had an inkling. And just as many would have spent the training period playing on their phones as would have been paying attention.
I like the FATS simulators that let the operator shoot a ping pong ball at you when you mess up or get caught in your loop.
That and simunitions.
A good fat welt on your arm or broken skin is a good reminder that policework is very much a contact sport.
I think per police training that practicals should make up 70% of the grade and that multiple guess tests be banned in favor of essay questions.
Instead of a rote catechism of "ability, opportunity, jeopardy....Graham v. Connor, Tennessee v. Garner blah blah blah" officers should have to literally have to spell out Reasonableness Doctrine and what it truly means. That would go a long way toward priming minds than this lazy powerpoint and scantron culture we have now.
You can teach anybody how to shoot. You gotta know how to think 10 seconds faster.
We also gotta kill the coffee drinking desk culture.
Because it is certainly killing us.
I think he did just fine. Maybe took longer than necessary because he's a nice guy.
I tend to agree.
Kind of curious why you felt he 'took longer than necessary.'
From watching the video (once) the thing that jumped out at me was when he said something along the lines of 'we can unbuckle him, the gun's in his pocket.'
Based on that, gun in pocket, the officer, IMHO wasn't justified in firing UNTIL the subject reached for the weapon. From our view, we don't know when that occurred, I would imagine immediately before the shots were fired.
I certainly saw nothing that evidenced an undue hesitance to fire.
Aside from the 'fvcks' I thought the guy's verbals (versus car stop questions) were pretty good. There was no doubt who was in charge, he didn't escalate the situation by going crazy with volume or screaming, he was firm when need be. Communication with the guy on the ground was okay.
After the shooting he was, IMO blowing off his adrenaline by moving his support arm around, adjusting something or whatever. When his backup arrived he communicated with them telling them what he had, what he needed them to do. I'd always tell folks that a less than perfect plan communicated is better than the perfect plan kept to yourself - so he checked the box on that one.
All in all, he acted like the kind of cop I'd like to work with - a nice guy who doesn't hesitate to pull the trigger. Someone said that he was a rookie. Knowing the amount of training that the average rookie officer has in gunfighting, I think he showed himself well. It isn't like he was SF doing a mission after a full brief. He did good.
A lot of negative things that I saw COULD be a result of inappropriate training. When you do vehicle stop training you always have to remind recruits not to be crawling/hugging up all over the vehicle, stay square into the most likely threat, and keep their weapon clear. That is learned behavior. Sometimes it doesn't get passed on when you are being trained at the 'fvck knuckle junction academy' by the guy assigned to teach vehicle stops at the last minute. You notice he had to move to clear to draw - and, IIRC he announced the gun before he drew - I'm a fan of drawing first, or as announcing.
There are several things the officer could/should have done differently. Some of you have mentioned them. They are easy to see from the comfort of my chair, not so easy in the moment.
Here might be some of the questions the officer had to cycle through and answer:
Decision point: Multiple people, based on the circumstances and what I want to accomplish, do I need to separate one from the herd and talk to them while maintaining observation of the vehicle? Do I need to lock it down and wait for back up?
Decision point: I see a weapon. I announce as I draw. Folks are not totally compliant. I don't have the need to shoot yet, but folks are not totally compliant. Do I stand my ground, without cover, or do I retreat to cover and try to lock down the vehicle? What is the likelihood of the vehicle leaving, or a hostage situation?
Like I said earlier on, I don't think the officer did bad. I think he'd be a good partner to mentor.
I like the FATS simulators that let the operator shoot a ping pong ball at you when you mess up or get caught in your loop.
That and simunitions.
A good fat welt on your arm or broken skin is a good reminder that policework is very much a contact sport.
I think per police training that practicals should make up 70% of the grade and that multiple guess tests be banned in favor of essay questions.
Instead of a rote catechism of "ability, opportunity, jeopardy....Graham v. Connor, Tennessee v. Garner blah blah blah" officers should have to literally have to spell out Reasonableness Doctrine and what it truly means. That would go a long way toward priming minds than this lazy powerpoint and scantron culture we have now.
You can teach anybody how to shoot. You gotta know how to think 10 seconds faster.
We also gotta kill the coffee drinking desk culture.
Because it is certainly killing us.
Fly buddy, when you use the shoot back you aren't watching the recruit/officer, so you need two operators. Doesn't often happen. Don't try to train everything at once. The FATS systems, we call them Use of Force Simulators, are best used to build and then evaluate use of force decision making. For us, running four simulator rooms, the money we would have spent on buying shoot back would have prevented us from buying different weapons to match what student officers were carrying. Always with the compromises.
Here is a snippet of the policy for basic training using the force simulators:
General. The goal of the Use-of-Force Simulation Training program at XXXXX is to provide training relevant to the individual officer's duties; delivered in a consistent manner; and evaluated in an impartial, objective manner. Students will be evaluated on the standard of a patrol officer performing normal patrol functions. Achieving a passing score for the overall rating in the Use-of-Force Simulation Training program is a requirement to satisfactorily pass a basic training course.
Evaluation. Each student will be evaluated on four differing scenarios using the standardized evaluation sheets. It is the instructor's discretion which scenarios are used and the branches that the scenarios take. Each student should be evaluated on at least one scenario that requires the officer to articulate the application of the 'Garner Standard' for use of lethal-force against a fleeing suspect.
The student’s performance on each of four scenarios will be scored on XXXXXXX Form XXXX using a Likert-based scoring system as follows:
1. Failing/least acceptable.
2. Unacceptable.
3. Acceptable/minimum acceptable.
4. Acceptable/average performance.
5. Superior/exceeds normal expected performance.
While other skills will be assessed during the Use of Force Simulation Training, the only content area that is required to satisfactorily complete a basic training course is the evaluation of the student’s use of force. Other areas of evaluation are reported for officer and agency information only.
Overall Rating. A student will receive an unsatisfactory or failing overall rating in the Use-of Force assessment if regardless of other scores: (1) the student receives a score of 2 on any two scenarios, or (2) the student receives a score of 1 in any one scenario.
Evaluation Opportunities. Students will be provided no more than two separate opportunities to achieve an overall passing score during the basic training course. If a student has not achieved a passing overall rating in the first two attempts no additional evaluation attempts will be provided until after the student repeats the relevant classroom instruction. A student’s employing agency may request that the student be provided the opportunity to return to XXXXX to repeat the relevant classroom instruction and receive one final evaluation opportunity. If an overall passing rating is not achieved in the final evaluation opportunity, the student’s record will reflect that the student failed the basic training course in which the student was enrolled.
The rest of the policy involves how the instructors report training.
We were serious about simulation training.
I agree on the essays, BUT, the problem in training the masses is objectivity. Essays are difficult to objectively score across the board. As an alternative fill in the blank, short answer (still the objectivity issue) would be better than multiple choice. Then the problem is scoring. Can not tell you how many hours we have spent cussing and discussing this issue.
I am well aware that not everybody gets the chance (privilege even) of good training. And the trainers hands are often tied.
I think some pay cuts from the city council and reallocated towards officers would reduce death, injury, and deadly forces quite a bit.
There are a lot of crippled, non-fieldable, or retired officers that could be teaching or assistant instructing.
I mean a lot of kids just study to pass so they can get to FTO, pick up bad habits, and then end up unprepared or not as prepared as they could be
I have yet to see a city council or mayor who didnt rob funds from the police because "oh well that wouldn't happen HERE" or "Well we dont want a militarized police" or "such and such neighborhood/district will complain"
It pisses me off because fact is, your average officer today is not ready for the worst case scenario.
And crime is on the uptick. And I do get kinda passionate when some guy just trying to do what he thinks is policing gets killed. Because chances are nobody really prepared him for that moment.
Sometimes its just your day. But all other times, a little more knowledge and preparedness will get him home.
But you know my heart on the issue.
I have yet to see a city council or mayor who didnt rob funds from the police because "oh well that wouldn't happen HERE" or "Well we dont want a militarized police" or "such and such neighborhood/district will complain"
It pisses me off because fact is, your average officer today is not ready for the worst case scenario.
Sometimes its just your day. But all other times, a little more knowledge and preparedness will get him home.
But you know my heart on the issue.
Brother, I'm cherry picking your quote just a bit but they are points I absolutely believe in. I'm back on the job after 2 years away and am currently going through a 14 day equivalency course designed for cops coming in from other states and guys like me who have been away for a bit. It's held at the same Academy our state's new guys are trained in. We eat off by ourselves but can hear the conversations of the recruits and some of them scare me.
I wish like hell they would give these guys more Simunitions training and combative mindset training. They teach the hard "warrior skills" in addition to the "guardian" aspects and we do lose recruits to injury each year during the academy. Some of the recruits I see don't have the right mindset for the fight that will eventually come to them. It may not be a gun fight but it will be a fight and if you head and heart aren't in the game you will lose. It is up to officers and deputies on the road to teach that and by then it can be too late.
ramairthree
09-04-17, 01:40
I think he gave above and beyond the required number of warnings and made every effort to not have to shoot the guy.
I'm not LE but he exceeded my threshold for a reasonable good shoot.
Could he have had better tactics? Not going to comment. He did not just launch on some TST VI with years of selection and training under his belt going after a known HVT.
Could he have had better stress inoculation training? He did not look like some over the hill fat boy, but seemed very exerted and breathless from little stress and exertion. I don't know. I can't remember If the training actually does anything, vs doing it for real a lot.
Either way, glad is is good to go, and nobody but the right guy is not.
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