View Full Version : Why the shotgun hate?
Now, before the mods move this "Gen Dis" topic to literal obscurity in the shotgun section...gentlemen please hear me out. [emoji120]
The recent "guns you hate to love" thread had a few instances where the ol scattergun sorta received it's due...but only out of nostalgia. Words like "pointless" and "small niche" (lookin' at you Flyman, lol) were used.
I feel shotguns are still the MOST versatile firearm on the planet. This is primarily due to ammo, but still. You can bird, deer, bear, whatever hunt with the same gun. If you own a couple different gauges it's nearly infinite.
Then there is the sporting realm. Clays...skeet, trap...hell you can buy a hand thrower and a couple boxes of clays and keep yourself and a couple of buddies entertained for an afternoon CHEAP.
Ammo? Again, if you reload, CHEAP.
Popo? Buck, breach, or beans...you know, depending on furniture color. Old school that shit might've just been in the same tube, so be SURE you count once you started stroking, lol.
Defense? I'd say in a pinch, whether optimum or not, $100 will get you something that will be easy to shoot and get the job done. And I'm not a "buckshot or bust" guy on home defense...see my sig line for my feelings on small cal defensive ammo.
I really feel there isn't a more versatile weapon/ammo small arm system on the planet.
Any way, I'd like this to be a fun debate...or lambasting...or bludgeoning...of my beloved shotguns as a "platform". Not necessarily an argument. I'm genuinely curious of people's thoughts. No wrong answers.
Feel free to add any stories to back up your opinions.
Please keep it civil. [emoji41]
"I just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-20-17, 06:31
When the zombie apocalypse comes, the last round in the tube is for me; I'm not being eaten while I reload. ;)
Shotguns are extremely flexible, but that does not translate into being a great fighting weapon.
Like how a Swiss army knife is very flexible, but who on their right mind would choose that over any number of fixed blades for a knife fight?
Moose-Knuckle
09-20-17, 07:40
When the zombie apocalypse comes, the last round in the tube is for me; I'm not being eaten while I reload. ;)
That's why my 590A1 has a bayo . . . no such thing as a "last bayonet" when the dead walk the Earth.
:jester:
Shotguns are extremely flexible, but that does not translate into being a great fighting weapon.
Like how a Swiss army knife is very flexible, but who on their right mind would choose that over any number of fixed blades for a knife fight?
No, I gotcha. And this IS m4c...
Bust as far as obsolete or useless, they're good for everything they've always worked well for.
Would I want one in a "move to contact" situation in conventional warfare? Even I, as non-Mil understands that as a mistake.
But home defense...not perfect but damned sure suitable. Right? Or no?
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
That's why my 590A1 has a bayo . . . no such thing as a "last bayonet" when the dead walk the Earth.
:jester:
Lol...good point
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
You are right about the versatility but there are other issues in my opinion. The learning curve is quadruple vs. an AR system. To become proficient takes longer and maintaining the skill level also is more in depth. Limited capacity, slower reload times, size and weight of ammo. It has become a special purpose tool in the military and law enforcement to a large degree. Most of the Deputies in my agency turned in their shotty's when we purchased AR's for them. If we lived in the world of only owning one firearm it could be a great answer. Thankfully, we don't live in that world.
SomeOtherGuy
09-20-17, 10:01
Versatile yes. But short-range, limited accuracy and heavy recoil. They require skill to use well, but outside of sporting clays you don't get much sense of accomplishment for gaining that skill. The Swiss-army-knife analogy is a good one.
For home defense it depends on your situation. Shotguns can address overpenetration, but they do so by losing penetration of intended targets as well (birdshot). A 12ga slug has overpenetration issues like anything short of dangerous game cartridges. Assuming you don't want an NFA SBS, a legal shotgun is long and unwieldy compared to a legal (non-NFA) AR or other 16" barreled carbine, or a handgun.
No hate from me, but like the venerable 1911, their utility has been bypassed by other choices in my view for anything but a few niche uses at this point. And, what
SomeOtherGuy said. :cool:
You are right about the versatility but there are other issues in my opinion. The learning curve is quadruple vs. an AR system. To become proficient takes longer and maintaining the skill level also is more in depth. Limited capacity, slower reload times, size and weight of ammo. It has become a special purpose tool in the military and law enforcement to a large degree. Most of the Deputies in my agency turned in their shotty's when we purchased AR's for them. If we lived in the world of only owning one firearm it could be a great answer. Thankfully, we don't live in that world.
Great post. I'd have swapped the riot gun for an AR too in your profession. [emoji106]
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
You are right about the versatility but there are other issues in my opinion. The learning curve is quadruple vs. an AR system. To become proficient takes longer and maintaining the skill level also is more in depth. Limited capacity, slower reload times, size and weight of ammo. It has become a special purpose tool in the military and law enforcement to a large degree. Most of the Deputies in my agency turned in their shotty's when we purchased AR's for them. If we lived in the world of only owning one firearm it could be a great answer. Thankfully, we don't live in that world.
You are correct about the learning curve...I have shotguns of every flavor, and have bird hunted 40 years. I'm far better with a rifle still...
Versatile yes. But short-range, limited accuracy and heavy recoil. They require skill to use well, but outside of sporting clays you don't get much sense of accomplishment for gaining that skill. The Swiss-army-knife analogy is a good one.
For home defense it depends on your situation. Shotguns can address overpenetration, but they do so by losing penetration of intended targets as well (birdshot). A 12ga slug has overpenetration issues like anything short of dangerous game cartridges. Assuming you don't want an NFA SBS, a legal shotgun is long and unwieldy compared to a legal (non-NFA) AR or other 16" barreled carbine, or a handgun.
Yeah, I'm not on board with birdshot either. Unless maybe hevi-shot turkey magnums. At that point might as well be buckshot.
No hate from me, but like the venerable 1911, their utility has been bypassed by other choices in my view for anything but a few niche uses at this point. And, what
SomeOtherGuy said. :cool:
There is some romance on my end for them, not gonna lie. [emoji846]
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
There is some romance on my end for them, not gonna lie. [emoji846]
I'm not an expert here, but those people who have really taken the time to be proficient with the shot gun will be a formidable threat and opponent, and one my my close buds who can work a Benelli like a 2 $ hooker, is a scary thing to watch. If starting from zero with todays choices, I think most would say what others have said in terms of recoil, and the other limitations and point people toward options such as SBR ARs and handguns, but I'd also posit they'd say that if one has the skill sets to really run a scatter gun already, there's not particular reason they should change over either if that's what the prefer. Like people that can really run a wheel gun, which are exceedingly rare these days but plenty effective if they have that skill set, which I do not. I think you'd find the days of the scatter gun as a primary go to for SD/HD among the BTDT types rare to non existent these days.
Versatile yes. But short-range, limited accuracy and heavy recoil. That and low rate of fire and limited capacity say it all for me.
It would be fair to call me a shot gun hater. I own one, a 870 to have as an example. I set it up pretty nice with a red dot and speed feed stock. I take no pleasure in shooting it. It does almost nothing for me I couldn't do, or do better with a carbine.
The only real use I see for a shot gun is a huge amount of energy all at once, like blowing a lock or hinges. I guess dirt, pumpkins and whatever else are good to shoot with them too if thats your thing. That and bird hunting, but I'm not out whacking bird with my tacted out 870.
But back to not enjoying shooting it. I love taking tactical carbine and pistol classes. I took a 3 gun class with Kelly Venden, I thought it a good idea as I had no formal training with a shot gun. I learned a lot. I learned I hated shooting it, and in my defense plans I had no use for it. I did perfectly well with it, just didn't like it. This is important, because not liking it causes me to not practice with it. So while I gain and maintain proficiency with pistols and carbines, I don't with a shotgun. This further keeps me away from them as I have even less use for them.
I really was into shotguns. Took all the schools, had more than a few old salts say it was the most versatile patrol weapon available.
And I lapped it up. And I enjoyed shooting them.
I was told how they were better than subguns, intimidating to suspects, etc.
But...after a while and as advancements catch on...you realize you are using 19th century tech in a 21st century world.
They do have a niche for less lethal or breaching. And hunting fowl.
I do not hate shotguns and wont part with mine (although they collect dust) but even for HD a good carbine will do better than a shotgun.
Seeing dudes buy their women a J Frame and a 20 gauge express instead of a Glock 19 and a decent AR is infuriating. It shows they either dont care about their women or are just ignorant.
The manual of arms on a pump action is not that easy. When it fouls up on you, if you are not trained to properly mortar hit that stock to get the flexi-tab system then you are toast.
Remedial action on an AR can be as simple as rip, rack replace, tap, rack, bang or SPORTS if you wanna be technical.
But like revolvers, you are going to see shotguns become essentially commercial only products for people in restricted areas or strictky for hunting.
Even subguns are pretty much done.
Why carry an MP5 when a shorty AR and suppressor will do much better?
Why carry a shotgun when a standard 14.5 or 16 AR will do much better?
The North Hollywood shootout would have been over most ricky tick if their aging Ithacas had one dude with slugs. Police Chiefs dont like slugs. I have heard every crazy reason why mostly steeped in superstition.
Background awareness and round accountability is universal.
You would deprive me of a sabot slug out of fear I might miss but not of the umpteen 9mm, 40, or 45 rounds I have that can kill someone too if I miss?
Soooo logical.
If we can't get full use, then scrap it for something more useful.
LL bean bags can still kill and require training.
Breaching requires training.
For basic patrolman, he or she can get a good 100 yd zero, learn super basic CQ rifle use and be far more effective than thrusting a 12 gauge in their arms and saying "ah say there, dew the best yew can"
Thats just my deal.
ColtSeavers
09-20-17, 14:17
For me, when I was younger, it was just a super macho epitome of a firearm.
Big shells, big bore, big explosion, big recoil and big holes in shit. Big manly manual of arms required as well (racking).
As time marched on, knowledge of firearms, use of more firearms and actual collection of firearms increased, it's not about that anymore.
Out in the Western US, the shotgun's range is debilitating as well.
I still personally get a kick out of shooting them though (pun intended).
Love my Benellis, but goblins can easily outnumber your ammo supply.
They are very versatile guns, but almost fall in the realm jack of all trades master of none. If you know when or how to use them, they are a good gun. I had kind of given up on them for a defensive gun until I just recently got a shockwave. While the shockwave has a small niche, it actually meets the needs I want from a shotgun.
Sent from my Z797C using Tapatalk
skywalkrNCSU
09-20-17, 14:43
I love them for shooting skeet and bird hunting, a ton of fun, but other than that they just are not fun to shoot. I have a Beretta 1201fp which is basically a Benelli and bird shot is fun but slugs put a hurting on you after too many rounds.
One thing I do love about shotguns is I can go get a basic Mossberg 500 for dirt cheap and it is a very capable home defense weapon. I'd much rather leave that outside my safe and risk it get stolen than my SBR with a can on it (which I would much prefer in an actual HD scenario)
Leaveammoforme
09-20-17, 15:10
Do it with a HG or an AR with only two mikes and I'll admit you're a better man than me.
https://youtu.be/iQdE7M1xdgs
Shotguns are for doors, bird hunting.
Rifles are for fighting and hunting bigger game.
Versatile yes. But short-range, limited accuracy and heavy recoil. They require skill to use well, but outside of sporting clays you don't get much sense of accomplishment for gaining that skill. The Swiss-army-knife analogy is a good one.
For home defense it depends on your situation. Shotguns can address overpenetration, but they do so by losing penetration of intended targets as well (birdshot). A 12ga slug has overpenetration issues like anything short of dangerous game cartridges. Assuming you don't want an NFA SBS, a legal shotgun is long and unwieldy compared to a legal (non-NFA) AR or other 16" barreled carbine, or a handgun.
I love me some shotgun, in circumstances where it is the proper tool for the job.
With proper ammunition selection you can make the shotgun 'acceptable' for more uses than most other firearms.
Your statement about feeling of accomplishment - that is your perception, I have more fun busting clays than just about anything firearms related, except banging steel at 1,000 and beyond.
I agree about home defense, but what would you rather take, a double tap to the chest at 20 feet with #1 Buck, or with a 5.56? I'd probably take my chances with the 5.56, either way it is going to suck.
Regarding over-penetration with slugs, I've yet to hear of secondary wounds to another party from a slug, many don't leave the body. Perhaps you do, if so let me know so I can research thew incident.
One advantage the shotgun has for close range room combat is that for a precision shot you don't have to factor in offset, like you do with the AR platform.
My HD shotguns, a 12gauge and a 20 gauge, are loaded with Brenneke THD Slugs. Accurate and limits the likelihood of a hostage/close bystander being hit with an errant wad. Did I mention, no need to worry about offset?
My daughters 21" 20 gauge is 2" longer than my suppressed 10.5" SBR with the stock fully collapsed. The SBR with the stock where I run it, is about the same length as the shotgun.
As I wrote this, I began to ponder, if I had to give up every long gun except one, which one would I keep. I'm not completely sure it wouldn't be a shotgun.
The North Hollywood shootout would have been over most ricky tick if their aging Ithacas had one dude with slugs. Police Chiefs dont like slugs. I have heard every crazy reason why mostly steeped in superstition.
The North Hollywood shootout would have been over if someone had the wherewithall to go roll over prone and take a couple of 35 yard head shots.
I do agree that in today's world, "for basic patrolman, he or she can get a good 100 yd zero, learn super basic CQ rifle use and be far more effective than thrusting a 12 gauge in their arms and saying "ah say there, dew the best yew can"
It would be fair to call me a shot gun hater. I own one, a 870 to have as an example. I set it up pretty nice with a red dot and speed feed stock. I take no pleasure in shooting it. It does almost nothing for me I couldn't do, or do better with a carbine.
Well, IMHO, you eff'ed it up by putting a red dot on it. Any red dot mounted on a p-rail is too high over the bore axis for what a shotgun is all about. Once again, IMHO, with the exception of the burris speedbead, red dots take away from the versatility of the shotgun and hamper it's use for anything but a slug gun.
JM devalued $.02
My 1st centerfire gun was a 20ga single and I had an 1100 12ga by the time I was 12. Shotguns are versatile and capable for many things, but they just don't have as much to offer as a defensive gun anymore. Factoring high recoil, low capacity, weight and other factors such as shot placement and range, other choices make more sense. I still have three shotguns and one of them is an 18" cyl bore pump, but it never gets used tbh.
The North Hollywood shootout would have been over if someone had the wherewithall to go roll over prone and take a couple of 35 yard head shots.
True, but it looked like they were trying but most of them weren't exactly Governor's Twenty and being shot at with a full auto AK certainly made it harder.
So....A for Effort and Hustle
I'm not an expert here, but those people who have really taken the time to be proficient with the shot gun will be a formidable threat and opponent, and one my my close buds who can work a Benelli like a 2 $ hooker, is a scary thing to watch. If starting from zero with todays choices, I think most would say what others have said in terms of recoil, and the other limitations and point people toward options such as SBR ARs and handguns, but I'd also posit they'd say that if one has the skill sets to really run a scatter gun already, there's not particular reason they should change over either if that's what the prefer. Like people that can really run a wheel gun, which are exceedingly rare these days but plenty effective if they have that skill set, which I do not. I think you'd find the days of the scatter gun as a primary go to for SD/HD among the BTDT types rare to non existent these days.
Absolutely true, and my father and uncle are living proof. I have another uncle that won't hunt with them, as he said they don't give anybody else a chance...birds included. Dad hunts an O/U 20ga for pheasant.
I really was into shotguns. Took all the schools, had more than a few old salts say it was the most versatile patrol weapon available.
And I lapped it up. And I enjoyed shooting them.
I was told how they were better than subguns, intimidating to suspects, etc.
But...after a while and as advancements catch on...you realize you are using 19th century tech in a 21st century world.
They do have a niche for less lethal or breaching. And hunting fowl.
I do not hate shotguns and wont part with mine (although they collect dust) but even for HD a good carbine will do better than a shotgun.
Seeing dudes buy their women a J Frame and a 20 gauge express instead of a Glock 19 and a decent AR is infuriating. It shows they either dont care about their women or are just ignorant.
The manual of arms on a pump action is not that easy. When it fouls up on you, if you are not trained to properly mortar hit that stock to get the flexi-tab system then you are toast.
Remedial action on an AR can be as simple as rip, rack replace, tap, rack, bang or SPORTS if you wanna be technical.
But like revolvers, you are going to see shotguns become essentially commercial only products for people in restricted areas or strictky for hunting.
Even subguns are pretty much done.
Why carry an MP5 when a shorty AR and suppressor will do much better?
Why carry a shotgun when a standard 14.5 or 16 AR will do much better?
The North Hollywood shootout would have been over most ricky tick if their aging Ithacas had one dude with slugs. Police Chiefs dont like slugs. I have heard every crazy reason why mostly steeped in superstition.
Background awareness and round accountability is universal.
You would deprive me of a sabot slug out of fear I might miss but not of the umpteen 9mm, 40, or 45 rounds I have that can kill someone too if I miss?
Soooo logical.
If we can't get full use, then scrap it for something more useful.
LL bean bags can still kill and require training.
Breaching requires training.
For basic patrolman, he or she can get a good 100 yd zero, learn super basic CQ rifle use and be far more effective than thrusting a 12 gauge in their arms and saying "ah say there, dew the best yew can"
Thats just my deal.
Absolutely agree with the girls and pump guns/revolvers. The only two guns I've ever locked up tighter than dicks hat band were an 870 and a .357 mag revolver. Ammo related, but it happens. They had to go to somebody with a tool box.
For me, when I was younger, it was just a super macho epitome of a firearm.
Big shells, big bore, big explosion, big recoil and big holes in shit. Big manly manual of arms required as well (racking).
As time marched on, knowledge of firearms, use of more firearms and actual collection of firearms increased, it's not about that anymore.
Out in the Western US, the shotgun's range is debilitating as well.
I still personally get a kick out of shooting them though (pun intended).
That's exactly the romantic aspect I mentioned earlier, so I'm w/you on that.
They are very versatile guns, but almost fall in the realm jack of all trades master of none. If you know when or how to use them, they are a good gun. I had kind of given up on them for a defensive gun until I just recently got a shockwave. While the shockwave has a small niche, it actually meets the needs I want from a shotgun.
Sent from my Z797C using Tapatalk
My current favorite gun to shoot is a little stoeger coach in 20ga. But if faced with multiple assailants, it'd be a bat after two rounds.
Great responses guys. Lots of good insight here
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
This is a great thread. I've really been thinking about my Benelli M2 that's basically been turned into a safe queen now that I don't shoot 3-gun anymore.
It was the last shot gun that I had that I qualified with as a LEO, so there is a little bit of sentimental value attached to it.
Back in the day, it was the cats meow. Given the proliferation of the AR platform though, coupled with the fact that I do not plan on shooting 3 gun again anytime soon, I'm thinking about swapping it for A large caliber precision rifle.
At the same time though, I'm afraid if I let it go I will end up regretting it 5 to 10 years down the road.
Decisions, decisions.
One of the main problems is that it's one of the most suggested platforms for home defense for someone who doesn't know the first thing about firearms. In the hands of a novice it's terrible for so many reasons.
That being said, the more I train with them the less I would reach for one for home defense. Not to say it can't be done I just feel that other platforms provide a better solution for this use.
I'm sure some disagree but that's me.
This is a great thread. I've really been thinking about my Benelli M2 that's basically been turned into a safe queen now that I don't shoot 3-gun anymore.
It was the last shot gun that I had that I qualified with as a LEO, so there is a little bit of sentimental value attached to it.
Back in the day, it was the cats meow. Given the proliferation of the AR platform though, coupled with the fact that I do not plan on shooting 3 gun again anytime soon, I'm thinking about swapping it for A large caliber precision rifle.
At the same time though, I'm afraid if I let it go I will end up regretting it 5 to 10 years down the road.
Decisions, decisions.
Lol, I'm tellin' ya, I'm coming to the conclusion that my "shotgun problem" is a sentimental one.
Logically, I understand there are guns more suitable for defensive purposes. But then, in capable hands, a shotty will "bust that ass"
Then there is the craftsmanship. The wood on my Silver Pigeon is so flawless and finely finished it looks almost fake.
So, yeah...I'll admit, I have a shotgun "problem"...I mean hell, I have four 870's alone. [emoji53]
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
In my county we have to use a shotgun, muzzleloader, handgun to hunt deer. Every county surrounding us and most in the state can use a shotgun, muzzleloader, handguns OR rifle for deer....go figure. I hope they change that soon!
Shotguns do have their purpose. It's fun to take one out blasting from time to time. However for hunting, other then birds and most small game, I'll take a rifle. Same for home defense. I do have one setup for that purpose which I'd grab over a handgun if I had to choose between the two. Carbine would be my first choice.
NYH1.
Moose-Knuckle
09-21-17, 04:20
You are right about the versatility but there are other issues in my opinion. The learning curve is quadruple vs. an AR system. To become proficient takes longer and maintaining the skill level also is more in depth. Limited capacity, slower reload times, size and weight of ammo.
Very well put.
I equate pump-action shotguns to be a thinking man's gun. There is lot of mistakes one can make while running one under stress. The only that fixes that is time behind the gun.
This is a great thread. I've really been thinking about my Benelli M2 that's basically been turned into a safe queen now that I don't shoot 3-gun anymore.
It was the last shot gun that I had that I qualified with as a LEO, so there is a little bit of sentimental value attached to it.
Back in the day, it was the cats meow. Given the proliferation of the AR platform though, coupled with the fact that I do not plan on shooting 3 gun again anytime soon, I'm thinking about swapping it for A large caliber precision rifle.
At the same time though, I'm afraid if I let it go I will end up regretting it 5 to 10 years down the road.
Decisions, decisions.
You could always flip it and just pick up a used 870P or 590 to say you have one.
I look at them as tools, I don't use my sledge hammer everyday but it's there should the need arise.
I also think shotgun usage have a lot to do with one's location. A Shockwave or Cruiser make a great camp gun for four legged predators and two legged a like. If you don' want to spend the coin on a big bore revolver for bear country a Shockwave or pistol gripped shotgun would be a inexpensive alternate.
In my county we have to use a shotgun, muzzleloader, handgun to hunt deer. Every county surrounding us and most in the state can use a shotgun, muzzleloader, handguns OR rifle for deer....go figure. I hope they change that soon!
Shotguns do have their purpose. It's fun to take one out blasting from time to time. However for hunting, other then birds and most small game, I'll take a rifle. Same for home defense. I do have one setup for that purpose which I'd grab over a handgun if I had to choose between the two. Carbine would be my first choice.
NYH1.
Slug only on shotguns? We used to be that way too and I don't remember why.
Very well put.
I equate pump-action shotguns to be a thinking man's gun. There is lot of mistakes one can make while running one under stress. The only that fixes that is time behind the gun.
.
Last time I went duck hunting with my uncle, (I'm horrible with steel shot, btw), he saw me jacking shells into the boat so fast it was like a phalanx on a destroyer...and drawing nary a feather. He turns and says to me..."you haven't hit shit and are having a blast, aren't you?" I said I was so he asked to use that big 870 for awhile and handed me his Franchi. It was funny watching him work thru the short-strokes...and this dude is a duck SLAYER.
But now, he owns a pump! (and I own a Franchi) [emoji41]
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
Moose-Knuckle
09-21-17, 07:10
Last time I went duck hunting with my uncle, (I'm horrible with steel shot, btw), he saw me jacking shells into the boat so fast it was like a phalanx on a destroyer...
:lol:
I just got a visual of the Duck Commander out on the deck of the Nathan James!
:lol:
I just got a visual of the Duck Commander out on the deck of the Nathan James!
Hah, yeah pretty damned close. [emoji106]
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
Slug only on shotguns? We used to be that way too and I don't remember why.
Here in New Yorkistan, they used to say most areas were too populated. There are some areas that are. However when 2/3's of the state was shotgun only (muzzleloader/handgun too) and that 2/3's of the state was the most mountainous/hilly Appalachian like is what I'm trying to say and farmland part of the state. The Southern Tier....it made no sense.
Then they started allowing rifle in shotgun counties and there were no problems. Now most of the state in rifle/shotgun/muzzleloader/pistol. Now they're talking about limiting some of those counties that were recently allowed to use rifles back to shotguns. No sense.
With all that said, there are A LOT of areas, probably like most eastern states that using a smooth bore foster shooting slug gun or a 16" 30-30 carbine wouldn't matter. 25/50 yards is 25/50 yards. I'll still take a rifle for deer over a slug gun anytime when I can. My new favorite deer rifle is a Remington 750 Woodsmaster Carbine 18.5" barrel 30-06 Spr. w/ Leupold VX 2 2-7x33 scope. It's my 2 to 200 yard gun. Then there's my 280 Rem., 35 Rem. A guys gotta have choices right?
Slug guns are 11-87 12 and 20 ga., 21" cantilever rifled barrels, Leupold VX II 2-7x33 shotgun scopes. Then a bunch of other barrels and stocks for other purposes and uses.
NYH1.
I love my old 870 but my house gun is now an SBR with a can. Mainly made the switch due to being able to have a can on the gun and still be shorter than the 18" 870. It is also the gun I shoot the most making it significantly easier for me to operate with skill if woken from a dead sleep.
I don't hate the shotgun. They are very versatile for hunting.
But as a weapon less so. They are superior to a pistol (Unless tight quarters) and cheaper.
If your scenario is a couple bg's at close range unarmored your set. That's a huge number of actual burglaries/home invasions.
But if a fight may be outside, there are more bg's, or they are likely to have armour you need a rifle. Duh, right?
At HD ranges a 5.56 rifle is okay but one should acknowledge that the first shot in an unarmored bg's torso does much less damage than a shotgun and you are less likely to get the bang-drop result you want.
Of course with any weapon we keep shooting until we get what we want but you know what I mean.
Training to run a shotgun In a long gun battle is fun but it's really not the tool for that. For a typical hd encounter the ammo in the gun is very likely enough. If you have more ammo on the gun or in places your likely to be ensconced you've already prepared above and beyond.
Keep in mind in most places the weapon you used will not be returned to you. Even if it is it will take much effort and lawyering. I wouldn't use anything real expensive or troublesome to replace like an nfa item but thats my choice. A shotgun is easy to replace.
You could always flip it and just pick up a used 870P or 590 to say you have one.
If I'm just going to "have one", I'll keep my Benelli. I have no disdain for the shotgun, I just don't use it, and am starting to wonder if I ever will again.
crusader377
09-21-17, 22:08
I don't think there is any shotgun hate. Remember this is an M4 carbine forum so naturally members are probably more interested in the AR platform. When I want to post things about shotguns I go to shotgunworld.com.
I'm a huge shotgun fan and my two Winchester 101s are one of my favorite guns.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-21-17, 22:30
Now the OP didn't spec pump or tube fed. I have one of those Amdahl M1919 box fed ones. Haven't shot it yet. Like the idea of box fed, but it cuts down a bit on the utility of slug select but definately addresses the reload issue.
I have a home office, but I thought that if I did have to commute a distance and might have to walk my way home, a folding stock shotgun with a couple of boxes of ammo of various kinds might make sense. I know a lot guys have M4s in their trunks, but economics and 'optics' reasons compared to an SBR, a shotgun might be a viable solution.
The comments about optics are interesting. Makes you wonder if there isn't a different solution out there to be found? Maybe a laser for longer shots and you know where the POI is from the last at distance.
When I got an O/U I put a mag extension on my 28inch So it looks like a huge O/U. Shot it in 3-gun, what a beast.
The only time I could see using it for defense is to open a door or just dump a bunch of slugs into something like a car before dropping it when it ran dry and switching to a AR. The French terrorist, where the people where shooting video from the roof of their house right down on the twits. Yep, there. A tube full of slugs.
I think you'd find the days of the scatter gun as a primary go to for SD/HD among the BTDT types rare to non existent these days.
I've really been thinking about my Benelli M2 that's basically been turned into a safe queen now that I don't shoot 3-gun anymore....Given the proliferation of the AR platform though, coupled with the fact that I do not plan on shooting 3 gun again anytime soon, I'm thinking about swapping it for A large caliber precision rifle.
I apologize if this is a necropost (what's the statute of limitations on replying to an older thread? a calendar year? I just made it!), but as the shotgun falls increasingly out of favor, what do you think will happen with practical shooting competitions that strive to emulate (somewhat) tactical scenarios, e.g. three gun?
a) It'll stay three gun: pistol, shotgun, rifle
b) It'll stay three gun, but substitute the shotgun for another "tactical" scenario: pistol, semi-auto carbine (short-range targets), bolt-action rifle (long-range)
c) I'll become two gun: pistol in holster, rifle on a sling -- you must retain both weapons throughout the course of fire (i.e. no dumping weapons in barrels along the way)
MountainRaven
09-06-18, 20:04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9B9FxNVXN8
If Ken could do it again, he would not allow shotguns in, at all.
wildcard600
09-06-18, 20:06
I apologize if this is a necropost (what's the statute of limitations on replying to an older thread? a calendar year? I just made it!), but as the shotgun falls increasingly out of favor, what do you think will happen with shooting sports that strive to emulate (somewhat) tactical scenarios, e.g. three gun?
a) It'll stay three gun: pistol, shotgun, rifle
b) It'll stay three gun, but substitute the shotgun: pistol, semi-auto carbine (short-range targets), bolt-action rifle (long-range)
c) I'll become two gun: pistol in holster, rifle on a sling -- you must retain both weapons throughout the course of fire (i.e. no dumping weapons in barrels along the way)
Lots of 2 gun already out there like 2GACM.
There will always be dumping of weapons in barrels, grounding on tables pointed down range, etc since many facilities will not take risks with 180 muzzle discipline or participants shooting themselves slinging or re-holstering. I've seen some stages where weapons retention was part of the stage, but always required dropping mags and showing clear before being allowed to sling or re-holster.
I would really like for 2G to become the "norm" and 3G die off. I have no interest in shotgunning and ALL of the matches around here that I know of are 3G and you can't simply show up and participate with only pistol and rifle/pcc.
SomeOtherGuy
09-06-18, 20:07
c) I'll become two gun: pistol in holster, rifle on a sling -- you must retain both weapons throughout the course of fire (i.e. no dumping weapons in barrels along the way)
At least one club/organization has been running this format for 10+ years. At one time there were three clubs using their rule set, two of those went separate ways for various reasons.
http://actshooters.com/ (original with the rule set, AFAIK; not interested in -measuring contests)
https://twogunaction.squarespace.com/ (was affiliated, friendly split-off from Michigan chapter)
Having done dozens of ACTS matches I find them enjoyable and more relevant than playing bullet hose.
SomeOtherGuy
09-06-18, 20:09
There will always be dumping of weapons in barrels, grounding on tables pointed down range, etc since many facilities will not take risks with 180 muzzle discipline or participants shooting themselves slinging or re-holstering. I've seen some stages where weapons retention was part of the stage, but always required dropping mags and showing clear before being allowed to sling or re-holster.
Not always - ACTS does none of those things. ACTS stages normally start with a loaded rifle in hands and loaded pistol in holster, and normally end with one weapon in hands and other holstered/slung as appropriate. This requires competent people but I'm not aware of any ND injuries at an ACTS match. YMMV.
I personally like the shotgun until it comes time to reload. Recently shot a KSG, great concept but it was still a pump. Really the shotgun for a defensive gun needs to be re-evaluated. Most designs are a take off from a sporting shotgun. Even the new Mossberg and Remington 870 box fed shotguns are better but they are semi auto and don't take optics well with respect to comb height. I think the KSG is a better step but reloading still sucks with a tube fed gun. Sure their are folks that are fast but if it could be redesigned to have ergonomics that minced the AR and interchangeability then I think you are off to the races.
wildcard600
09-06-18, 22:02
Not always - ACTS does none of those things. ACTS stages normally start with a loaded rifle in hands and loaded pistol in holster, and normally end with one weapon in hands and other holstered/slung as appropriate. This requires competent people but I'm not aware of any ND injuries at an ACTS match. YMMV.
I know there are exceptions. Many private instructors run course of fire that would be deemed far too risky for competition/public events. Karl Kasarda who runs the 2GACM in Tucson has talked about the difficulty in getting insurance coverage for his special events a number of times on his InRange videos. IIRC he specifically mentioned slinging/holstering hot weapons was not really feasible in regards to obtaining insurance for a match.
Did some reading on ACTS and it sounds like it would be a very fun/interesting thing to participate in. I have no illusions that events like that would ever become widespread or common, due to the potential liability involved. Any time the "general public" is involved, barrels and grounding is here to stay.
BoringGuy45
09-06-18, 23:46
I've found that the majority of reasoning for using a shotgun for defense is based on either myths or old thinking.
There's the old "sound of pumping the shotgun is enough to scare most bad guys off," myth. This, of course, ignores the fact that the sounds of racking a handgun slide or charging a semi-auto rifle are just as loud and distinctive as a shotgun being pumped...and the fact that choosing a weapon by what sound it makes when it's charged is utterly moronic. But when I did gun sales, I did have customers buy shotguns over pistols or rifles for this reason and this reason alone.
There's the old "impossible to miss with a shotgun" myth. Yes, you don't have to be as precise with a shottie as you do with a pistol or rifle; shotguns are imprecise by design. But it's still very easy to miss with a shotgun, especially beyond 20 yards, without properly pointing it. Also, while a slug or buckshot will make a big hole, shot placement is still a factor in shotguns as it is in rifles or handguns.
At the end of the day, I still say a semi-auto rifle like an AR is a better choice for defense. It has higher capacity, lower recoil, longer range, quicker reload time, and at the effective range of a shotgun, is just as lethal with proper shot placement.
Also, I believe that most police departments should go away from shotguns for every patrolman and replace them with patrol rifles. Really, most of the reason that the patrol shotgun is still used is less because of any advantage over a rifle and more because the shotgun has just always been the way it's done. And, in the eyes of the American cop, change is always and forever a bad thing.
ramairthree
09-07-18, 11:31
I really like shotguns.
I grew up shooting birds, rabbits, squirrels.
They are a lot of fun. I have stamped sawed off double barrels, a shockwave, coachgun, lever action reproduction, external hammer coach gun, pumps made 120 years ago, pumps made ten years ago, tube Fed SAs, and two different mag fed SA platforms.
If you had to choose one single firearm for your entire life, you could birdshot and slug shot hunt, defend your home, etc. with one. It would only be optimal for one thing though.
Slow to reload, limited capacity, and the mag fed ones are iffy to get running great and officer to keep running great.
They are to guns what carburetors and 4 speed stick shifts are to cars.
Yes a Hemi, 440 six pack, or M22 are sweet. How frigging cool is a huge cfm quadrant with hood scoops you can open by pulling a knob sucking air into your RA 400 or 455 cubic inches of engine? I like hitting the clutch and moving that hurst t handle. It’s cool having that molar pistol grip.
But, when not limited to carbs and when options of more ergonomic shifters with overdrive transmissions etc. exist,
You can get better performance going through a third as much gas.
So, I love shotguns and I love old cars. I enjoy playing with them. I would make it work if I had to have one as my daily driver or my only firearm. Sometimes I am even in the mood for no AC, putting in 8 tracks, with visceral worse handling, worse breaking, etc. But if I had to hop in a car and make a run for my life, it’s going to be a recent MOPAR I hop into and not the the 40 something year old one next to it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-07-18, 12:20
I did some 3-gun stuff a decade ago, but I've been doing 'one-gun' stuff, but my son wants to get into 3-gun. To me, I'd be more accepting of the shotgun if the targets and stages were set up to have some kind of game theory to using it. Give me targets that take one well place shot gun blast to neutralize or 2-5 5.56 or hand gun rounds. Target arrays where I could engage multiple targets with one shotgun round. Engage near targets with background no-shoots so the range restriction is an advantage (long range paper sucks, I know). Just don't give me 15 lean-to targets to engage, that I would always prefer to use a rifle or handgun on. I know that is a real PITA to design and run.
Also, I believe that most police departments should go away from shotguns for every patrolman and replace them with patrol rifles. Really, most of the reason that the patrol shotgun is still used is less because of any advantage over a rifle and more because the shotgun has just always been the way it's done. And, in the eyes of the American cop, change is always and forever a bad thing.
I've done armorer service on agency shotguns that were over 30 years old.
Many agencies are loathe to spend money on secondary weapons - the reason most agencies started carrying AR's was because the government 'loaned' them the initial batch. I've also done armorer service on LESO rifles over 30 years old.
I wonder how heavily invested LE would be in the AR if AR's hadn't been initially available through LESO. Even today, many AR's (plus additional equipment) are bought through grants or with asset forfeiture money.
We'll never know, but it is interesting to wonder where we would be now without LESO 1077 weapons.
Three or four decade's ago LE was almost exclusively male, many of those males were veterans, and many of those males had hunted with a shotgun. As a result of those factors, and the myths you listed, many agencies and training organizations shorted shotgun training feeling that officers already had the knowledge. Our basic training curriculum had 8 hours of required shotgun training. Not nearly enough, but as you said, tradition.
I was not one of the early big proponents of patrol rifle adoption in urban areas. Primarily because of the increased downrange danger area compared to the pistol caliber carbine, sub gun, shotgun, or pistol. Many folks way back then were touting lack of over penetration as a reason to adopt the rifle, they were wrong then, just as they are today. It has always been misses and the increased down range danger area that concerned me. That the round didn't exit the body means little to the family of the mother hit 300 yards down the street by an errant round.
Even though my thinking on the adoption of the rifle has evolved I still have those concerns.
Back to the shotgun, Ramairthree makes a good point - absent taking game or defensive shots over 125 yards, I could get by with a shotgun if I had to, and probably have more fun.
ramairthree
09-08-18, 01:46
Yeah, most versions of three gun drive me nuts.
You see huge Carbine and pistol mags with limited mag changes and virtually no transitions. Stuff people really do. Then shotgun time and more damn reloads and retardedness than youncould conceive of.
I am fine with throwing some birdshot at some plates of pretend hinges or something. I am fine with shoot five, reload five. But the convoluted birdshot here, slugs there, Buck here I honestly think decrease interest.
You know how many times I saw people blowing out worried about rounds and multiple reloads for shotgun? Never. Not once. For dozens and dozens of objectives. You know how many times it was slung along, accounted for, as barely an afterthought with some lock busters? All of them. For a brief period in the early 90s one team would have a CAR with a 203, and the other a car with a shotgun under barrel. Barely a secondary.
It was apparently a shotgun round which terminated the Cincinnati shooter:
As was discussed, one officer was armed with a rifle. One officer was armed with a Remington 870 loaded with 4 rounds of Federal flight controlled 00 buck and two officers were only armed with their issued M&P9 pistol, loaded with WW 147 gr RA9T. The officers were forced to shoot through the glass wall of the lobby of the building in order to engage the suspect. Two rounds from the 12 ga and several 9mm rounds struck the suspect. The investigation is still in the process of determining who's rounds struck where. But the 12 ga wounds are easier to determine as only one officer had a shotgun and he only fired two rounds from it. Both rounds struck the suspect. Due to the shot placement of one of the 12 ga rounds, the effect was immediate in terminating the threat instantly...
I believe that would have been through glass.
It was apparently a shotgun round which terminated the Cincinnati shooter:
As was discussed, one officer was armed with a rifle. One officer was armed with a Remington 870 loaded with 4 rounds of Federal flight controlled 00 buck and two officers were only armed with their issued M&P9 pistol, loaded with WW 147 gr RA9T. The officers were forced to shoot through the glass wall of the lobby of the building in order to engage the suspect. Two rounds from the 12 ga and several 9mm rounds struck the suspect. The investigation is still in the process of determining who's rounds struck where. But the 12 ga wounds are easier to determine as only one officer had a shotgun and he only fired two rounds from it. Both rounds struck the suspect. Due to the shot placement of one of the 12 ga rounds, the effect was immediate in terminating the threat instantly...
I believe that would have been through glass.
I watched the Live Leak body camera footage again. Lady cop shoots the guy to the ground and retreats to cover. You hear a big blast, what sounds like a slide rack, then another blast. You can see shotgun guy's feet on the right of her body cam footage and the tip of a shotgun muzzle for just a second in the video. Lets give credit where credit is do... body cam lady smoked the guy, shotgun guy looks like he finished him.
A lot of the uses you mention are for hunting, which I don't do.
I guess it all depends on where you start. I know lots of people started out as kids with shotguns and they seem natural and useful.
My first time firing a gun was in Infantry OSUT so that type of weapon is what seems normal, useful.
One of the first guns I ever bought was a Mossberg 590. I didn't really like it, but it was cheap and I mostly just messed around with it. I later sold it to someone for $30 more than I had paid for it after it sat in my closet untouched for 5 years.
On the recommendation of someone much later, I got an FN SLP. I thought maybe something more modern would fit me better. Nope. I just find them harder to shoot and awkward compared to an AR and there is no real-world scenario in which I could see myself needing a shotgun over an AR. So I sold that too.
I'm not a cop so the non-lethal rounds have no use for me either. I only have two uses for guns in my life as a non-hunter, non leo: recreation, or self defense.
Recreation: I didn't enjoy shooting them at all. Low capacity, high recoil, strange sighting system.
Self-Defense: All of the same as above applies. If someone kicks in my door, I'm picking up my suppressed SBR. It would take me ridiculous amounts of time training with a shotgun to even be remotely passable with. I'll spend what little time i have on pistols since that is my biggest deficiency and the most likely weapon I'd need.
A lot of the uses you mention are for hunting, which I don't do.
I guess it all depends on where you start. I know lots of people started out as kids with shotguns and they seem natural and useful.
My first time firing a gun was in Infantry OSUT so that type of weapon is what seems normal, useful.
One of the first guns I ever bought was a Mossberg 590. I didn't really like it, but it was cheap and I mostly just messed around with it. I later sold it to someone for $30 more than I had paid for it after it sat in my closet untouched for 5 years.
On the recommendation of someone much later, I got an FN SLP. I thought maybe something more modern would fit me better. Nope. I just find them harder to shoot and awkward compared to an AR and there is no real-world scenario in which I could see myself needing a shotgun over an AR. So I sold that too.
I'm not a cop so the non-lethal rounds have no use for me either. I only have two uses for guns in my life as a non-hunter, non leo: recreation, or self defense.
Recreation: I didn't enjoy shooting them at all. Low capacity, high recoil, strange sighting system.
Self-Defense: All of the same as above applies. If someone kicks in my door, I'm picking up my suppressed SBR. It would take me ridiculous amounts of time training with a shotgun to even be remotely passable with. I'll spend what little time i have on pistols since that is my biggest deficiency and the most likely weapon I'd need.
Your experience is almost identical to mine, right down to the 590 that sat in the closet and sold to someone a few years later.
I watched the Live Leak body camera footage again. Lady cop shoots the guy to the ground and retreats to cover. You hear a big blast, what sounds like a slide rack, then another blast. You can see shotgun guy's feet on the right of her body cam footage and the tip of a shotgun muzzle for just a second in the video. Lets give credit where credit is do... body cam lady smoked the guy, shotgun guy looks like he finished him.
Look at where the officer shot him at 1:36ish (on the you-tube video) then compare the angle at 1:54ish. The officer with the pistol did a great job - good SA, good commo, guy goes down, but apparently as she rolled back into cover, the bad guy was stilling moving as indicated by the final position.
No one is trying to take away the fact that Officer Chilton controlled the situation with expertise and got the job done. Great job.
Merely pointing that the shotgun, at about 30 foot I'd guess was able to penetrate the glass, and deliver immediately lethal hits on the, apparently still moving, still a threat suspect.
crusader377
09-10-18, 13:33
I don't think there is any shotgun hate at all but you have to remember this is a AR platform specific website with members biased more towards tactical weapons and shooting. A firearm is a tool, no more no less. I greatly appreciate my O/U shotguns and they represent excellent example of the firearms craftsmanship and I enjoy shooting clays and doves with them. However, despite Joe Biden's opinion, they are a terrible choice for a defensive firearm, hence the reason why I also own AR platform rifles and handguns. Pump actions, are sort of like the affordable jack of all trades master of none gun. I don't own one, because I have better firearms in each of the roles that I need a firearm for.
RetroRevolver77
09-10-18, 16:21
I keep a few shotguns, wheel guns, and some 1911's. They all put big holes in things if needed.
I was issued, and trained with, a pump shotgun for several years before the patrol carbine was ever approved. I have owned a Mossberg 500 for over 30 years and it has never had a hiccup firing anything from #8 to 1 oz. slugs as fast as I could rack it and get back on target. Would I feel undergunned defending my home with it? No. Would it be my first choice? No.
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