View Full Version : Any other gun companies refuse to sell guns to Israel Like Heckler and Koch?
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-22-17, 23:21
Any other gun companies refuse to sell guns to Israel Like Heckler and Koch?
You would think a company founded by Nazi engineers would be a little embarrassed about boycotting Jews. Any other gun companies out there doing this?
I don't think Israel uses HK firearms anyway.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-23-17, 00:02
Well, I know they use Colts,Glocks and CZs or at least they did when I was there a few months ago.
Interesting question.
Israel makes a lot of its own guns and I dont think they use HK anyways
I cant speak for HK , and am only speculating, but part of me thinks this is to avoid accusations of "favoritism". I don't think they are boycotting Jews as much as the Israeli Govt (Me personally, I am for separation of church and state, I would hate for my denomination or faith to be conflated with my government)
Not selling to Saud is a big positive first step though.
Buuuut....at the end of the day, if North Korean elites can get iPads and Jack Daniels then I'm sure the Mossad or whomever can get some HK 416s if they really wanted them.
Money talks and BS walks.
Afghan Muslims used Israeli AKs in the 80s to kill Russians so there it is.
I doubt this will bankrupt HK, I doubt they stopped selling guns.
Perhaps its slight naivete but this is similar to what Apple does and yet, people worship the Cult.
They are selling a heavy, stamped metal pistol for $2500+ and folks are buying them.
So I wouldnt overthink it.
JMHO
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-23-17, 00:50
I could care less if Israel uses them. I just want to make sure I don’t buy any guns from a company is anti-Israel.
El Pistolero
09-23-17, 00:57
**** HK. I've always hated them as a company. Their products are solid but their leadership deserves to burn to the ground.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-23-17, 01:04
I have been a huge fan and loyal customer since 1991. Until they change this I’m not going to have anything to do with them.
Any other gun companies refuse to sell guns to Israel Like Heckler and Koch?
You would think a company founded by Nazi engineers would be a little embarrassed about boycotting Jews. Any other gun companies out there doing this?
Were those Mauser engineers nazis? I honestly don't know. I know they went to Spain to develop the CETME rifle which was a refinement of the Stg45(M). I know the former Mauser factory was destroyed in the French sector at the insistence of the Russians. And I know some of those former employees working in Spain bought the old site and rebuilt it as Heckler and Kock, Mauser simply moved down the street and built a new facility.
I can't say I completely understand the rationale behind refusing to sell their products to Israel, especially when Israel is getting pretty much everything they need free from the US and if we aren't giving it to them they are more than capable of producing their own small arms.
Of course the declaration they will not sell to Saudi, Pakistan, Turkey, etc. is equally pointless as somebody already noted those countries already have HK contract facilities and pretty much don't need Germany for anything. In fact Iran can still crank out G3s if they want from their 1970s factories.
So this seems to be a meaningless PC statement designed to appear to take a stance against terrorism and / or to alleviate themselves of some of the guilt about G3s being one of the second favored weapons of terrorists right behind the AK. Stir in some NSDAP personal guilt complex and presto Germany is doing incredibly stupid things like converting to Islam wholesale but refusing to send guns to countries that might have terrorists even though those countries are chock full of small arms including HK contract arms.
I honestly feel sorry for Germany, they will never again be an independent country and will be just another socialist craphole occupied by a hostile invader. Instead of stating they won't sell guns to Israel, they should be studying the Israel model.
Moose-Knuckle
09-23-17, 04:49
If Yoni chooses to join the discussion he can confirm specifics, but in an unrelated thread last month we were discussing 7.62 NATO precision rifles used by the IDF and he stated they used "HKs/M21s/and bolt guns". Now whether or not the IDF is still procuring HK arms up to the date of this new policy I don't know but will let Yoni learn us as he has contacts and family still there.
So this seems to be a meaningless PC statement designed to appear to take a stance against terrorism and / or to alleviate themselves of some of the guilt about G3s being one of the second favored weapons of terrorists right behind the AK. Stir in some NSDAP personal guilt complex and presto Germany is doing incredibly stupid things like converting to Islam wholesale but refusing to send guns to countries that might have terrorists even though those countries are chock full of small arms including HK contract arms.
I honestly feel sorry for Germany, they will never again be an independent country and will be just another socialist craphole occupied by a hostile invader. Instead of stating they won't sell guns to Israel, they should be studying the Israel model.
Excellent post.
I can't say I completely understand the rationale behind refusing to sell their products to Israel
I have a hard time seeing the rationale in what they are doing or the way they did the announcement.
That being said, having made the decision to sell only to 'green' countries, my bet is that they asked themselves whether they get more blow back by selling to Israel or by stopping sales to Israel. It seems that they felt stopping sales to Israel was the answer.
JMO.
If they want to become an 'ethical' arms manufacturer they should probably stop production of all their firearms save their recreational target shooting lineup, if they have one. PETA you know.
So, "if you decline to bake a cake for a gay wedding because as a company you choose not to support that lifestyle, you're homophobic"... but for gun manufacturers...
Ironic.
As ridiculous as this entire new policy of theirs sounds at face value, and as shocked as I am that they haven't trotted out some sort of "U.S. gun violence statistics" in order to stop selling here along with the rest, it's still the company's choice WHO they sell guns and whatever else they make to.
We're not the only country on earth that gets to choose who gets what arms we produce...
Accuracy International and Steyr refuse to sell to Israel as well.
Nobody today is buying HK guns in Israel, only 1 unit bought HK sniper rifles and today better rifles are available.
As ridiculous as this entire new policy of theirs sounds at face value, and as shocked as I am that they haven't trotted out some sort of "U.S. gun violence statistics" in order to stop selling here along with the rest, it's still the company's choice WHO they sell guns and whatever else they make to.
We're not the only country on earth that gets to choose who gets what arms we produce...
The US is too big a market. Moral outrage only goes so far if there are enough Deutschmarks on the line.
Accuracy International and Steyr refuse to sell to Israel as well.
Nobody today is buying HK guns in Israel, only 1 unit bought HK sniper rifles and today better rifles are available.
MVP post of the thread.
And, someome said HK was "refusing Jews".
I highly doubt that.
A Jew in America can go on down to a gun store and if he had the money; could walk home with any and all current HK catalogue guns.
A Jew in Israel, from what I hear, has to go through some hoops just to own a gun.
Its not quite "Here have a gun" like Switzerland unless they are active Army.
I think HK is just trying to remove themselves from the whole ME spiel and likely because Germany don't have their crap together.
I agree though, by not maturely acknowledging the past and moving on and playing German guilt that they are setting themselves up for another backlash.
No its not "cool". Dudes marching in Feldgrau with shovels beating on Haji will just stir up more BS dragging everyone down too.
If ya wanna know what Hillary's presidency would have been like; look at Merkel.
But that's a tangent....
Ah Germany.......they're pretty good at making stuff....cars, guns whatever.....but ideas? I don't don't think ANY good ideas have come out of Germany since maybe Martin Luther. As imperfect as Israel is, as is most countries, HK doesn't seem to be able to make proper distinctions, pretty much the same as their home country.
I have a hard time seeing the rationale in what they are doing or the way they did the announcement.
That being said, having made the decision to sell only to 'green' countries, my bet is that they asked themselves whether they get more blow back by selling to Israel or by stopping sales to Israel. It seems that they felt stopping sales to Israel was the answer.
JMO.
If they want to become an 'ethical' arms manufacturer they should probably stop production of all their firearms save their recreational target shooting lineup, if they have one. PETA you know.
Exactly, and what defines "ethical"? For those on the PC side, ethical = no more guns.
Why is it ALWAYS the Effing Germans, lol...
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
Ah Germany.......they're pretty good at making stuff....cars, guns whatever.....but ideas? I don't don't think ANY good ideas have come out of Germany since maybe Martin Luther. As imperfect as Israel is, as is most countries, HK doesn't seem to be able to make proper distinctions, pretty much the same as their home country.
Honestly, I think somebody in Germany realizes they are currently well occupied and probably need to show some perceived distance between themselves and Israel before their "new arrivals" burn things down wholesale.
When I called Steyr to get replacement stocks for SSG1 sniper rifles we had captured from Syria, I was told very clearly "we do not sell guns to Jews"
When I called Steyr to get replacement stocks for SSG1 sniper rifles we had captured from Syria, I was told very clearly "we do not sell guns to Jews"
I'm no expert on Europe, but man they really, really don't sound like they have gotten over their "Jew" issues, but just buried their deserved guilt under some unresolved shame. Now it seems fashionable to let all that pent up Jew anger out, seems being pro-Islam sets these folks free.
If ya wanna know what Hillary's presidency would have been like; look at Merkel.
It might be a tangent, but it's the truth.
Honestly, I think somebody in Germany realizes they are currently well occupied and probably need to show some perceived distance between themselves and Israel before their "new arrivals" burn things down wholesale.
Afraid of Islam or actively pro-Islam, not absolutely sure......but I think maybe more pro.
Afraid of Islam or actively pro-Islam, not absolutely sure......but I think maybe more pro.
I think a "pro Islam / anti Israel" stance would run the risk of being called a "nazi" and last time I checked that is something the Germans were worried about more than anything else. One of the reasons they let muslim refugees flow into their country unchecked was so that nobody would accuse them of acting like a "nazi."
For the last 70+ years they have had that drummed into their heads so hard sometimes I'm amazed they are willing to breath oxygen because the "nazis" used to breath oxygen. Either way they are now the country most responsible for shouldering EU debt since the UK opted out, Merkel isn't going to make anything better and they are at the beginning stages of a cultural reformation based on Islam.
When I called Steyr to get replacement stocks for SSG1 sniper rifles we had captured from Syria, I was told very clearly "we do not sell guns to Jews"
No kidding? Hope your very next call was to McMillan. Interesting that Steyr was willing to sell sniper rifles to Iran but has a problem with Israel. Love to hear the rationalization behind that one.
MountainRaven
09-24-17, 23:00
I'm no expert on Europe, but man they really, really don't sound like they have gotten over their "Jew" issues, but just buried their deserved guilt under some unresolved shame. Now it seems fashionable to let all that pent up Jew anger out, seems being pro-Islam sets these folks free.
Austria wholeheartedly embraced Naziism in the 30s and 40s, but they got a slap on the wrist from the allies who were cutting Germany into pieces over WWII and the Holocaust. The leader of the political movement to resist the Nazis and Anschluß, Otto von Hapsburg, had all his property taken following Nazi "occupation" of Austria and was sentenced to death - he fled to the US after helping tens of thousands of Jews escape Austria and even convinced the US Army to put together an "Austrian Battalion" - and Austria never returned any of it after the war.
And while resistance movements in France, Poland, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, and Norway all engaged in some fairly violent attacks on occupying and collaborationist forces, the Austrian resistance was mostly political and peaceful - apart from their leaders being arrested, tortured, and executed.
Moose-Knuckle
09-25-17, 04:02
When I called Steyr to get replacement stocks for SSG1 sniper rifles we had captured from Syria, I was told very clearly "we do not sell guns to Jews"
To date I don't own any Steyr firearms and now I never will.
For some reason if I feel the need to go out and purchase a bullpup I'll get me a Tavor. :cool:
When I called Steyr to get replacement stocks for SSG1 sniper rifles we had captured from Syria, I was told very clearly "we do not sell guns to Jews"
Never understood the anti Jewish mindset. Being German/Irish (75%/25%) and my grandpapa (all German) fought and was severely wounded in The Battle of the Bulge (14th Armor). Jewish people were/are just like anyone else to us.
NYH1.
Never understood the anti Jewish mindset. Being German/Irish (75%/25%) and my grandpapa (all German) fought and was severely wounded in The Battle of the Bulge (14th Armor). Jewish people were/are just like anyone else to us.
NYH1.
Such hate is not genetic, it is learned behavior.
WickedWillis
09-26-17, 17:20
Such hate is not genetic, it is learned behavior.
Of course, all hate is learned behavior.
Could it be though that HK doesn't hate Jews at all but is like a large chunk of the world and doesn't see Israel as a good guy like we do here in the states?
Asking as someone who frequently trains with my HK's and Tavor on the same range. I'd hate for a turf war to happen out there. ...
Doc Safari
09-26-17, 17:26
I could care less if Israel uses them. I just want to make sure I don’t buy any guns from a company is anti-Israel.
I'm with you. "I will bless them that bless you and curse them that curse you."
Yoni,
I'm not doubting you but did the guy at Steyr actually say "Jews" or did they say "Israelis"?
That'd be like some Gun company saying "We dont sell to blacks" as opposed to "We refuse service to Chad"
Might've had an A-hole working that day. I dont know. I've had gun people get uppity on the phone when their stuff didnt work or I needed help so I dont doubt it.
But if he actually said "No sales to Jews" then thats pretty coarse and not good to say.
Used to it didnt matter if you was black brown, or white.....if yo' money was green, youd be all right.
Doc Safari
09-26-17, 17:28
Ah Germany.......they're pretty good at making stuff....cars, guns whatever.....but ideas? I don't don't think ANY good ideas have come out of Germany since maybe Martin Luther. As imperfect as Israel is, as is most countries, HK doesn't seem to be able to make proper distinctions, pretty much the same as their home country.
Martin Luther? Another Jew hater.
Martin Luther? Another Jew hater.
I'm not defending him, but he was hardly alone at the time. He apparently had a hard time differentiating between God cutting them loose in the OT and the forgiveness in the NT.
Overall, I have to agree, the Protestant Reformation was inarguably the best thing ever to come out of Germany. Otherwise we'd still be paying for indulgences and asking forgiveness through Priests.
Jesus and Martin Luther changed the world.
I'm not defending him, but he was hardly alone at the time. He apparently had a hard time differentiating between God cutting them loose in the OT and the forgiveness in the NT.
Overall, I have to agree, the Protestant Reformation was inarguably the best thing ever to come out of Germany. Otherwise we'd still be paying for indulgences and asking forgiveness through Priests.
Jesus and Martin Luther changed the world.
I would argue Luther changed things for the worse. He managed to fracture the Church even further than it already was. Instead of being split into 2 major groups (Catholics and Orthodox groups) with roughly similar beliefs overall, you now have thousands of miniature groups that bear little resemblance to what we know of historical Christianity.
While Luther rightly saw that there were many problems with the way that the church was being run at the time they didn’t require fracturing the church in the way he did. Additionally once he failed to gain traction among the Church’s leadership he made a theological power play that led to several hundreds years of war in Europe. Additionally modern day Protestantism holds little similarity to the religious beliefs that Martin Luther himself espoused during his life and In fact it is quite likely that Martin himself would be shocked at the direction that his movement took theologically.
As for H&K I wouldn’t be surprised if their actions of no longer selling to Israel have something to do with the political direction of Germany. The company is well on its way to financial problems that may require them to seek financial assistance from the German government. If that is the case I have little doubt that they believe portraying themselves as an “ethical” gun company may make it less politically objectionable to German politicians to provide a cash injection to the ailing company.
Martin Luther? Another Jew hater.
If I remember correctly he disliked them because of their rejection of Christ, not because they were simply Jews, since you know Jesus, the apostles and the first believers were Jews. I don't like the Jewish religion anymore than he did, I and he didn't like any false religions. The good idea was to protest the RCC and it's theology and ways.
I would argue Luther changed things for the worse. He managed to fracture the Church even further than it already was. Instead of being split into 2 major groups (Catholics and Orthodox groups) with roughly similar beliefs overall, you now have thousands of miniature groups that bear little resemblance to what we know of historical Christianity.
While Luther rightly saw that there were many problems with the way that the church was being run at the time they didn’t require fracturing the church in the way he did. Additionally once he failed to gain traction among the Church’s leadership he made a theological power play that led to several hundreds years of war in Europe. Additionally modern day Protestantism holds little similarity to the religious beliefs that Martin Luther himself espoused during his life and In fact it is quite likely that Martin himself would be shocked at the direction that his movement took theologically.
As for H&K I wouldn’t be surprised if their actions of no longer selling to Israel have something to do with the political direction of Germany. The company is well on its way to financial problems that may require them to seek financial assistance from the German government. If that is the case I have little doubt that they believe portraying themselves as an “ethical” gun company may make it less politically objectionable to German politicians to provide a cash injection to the ailing company.
Actually the papacy was the problem.....with all it's false gospel and false practice, and murder, and persecution and burning people and giving the world the gift of the Jesuits and on and on and on. And before Luther it was those terrible Waldensians, and Albigenes, and Wycliff and Huss and all those other anti-papacy rabble.
I thought they refused to sell in war zones, i.e. the middle east, inclusive of Israel, not singling it out? Can H&K be bought in Pakistan? If not, it seems they're holding to their word. If you can get H&K's in Paki, send me a crate of G33's. ;)
Doc Safari
09-27-17, 09:09
I'm not defending him, but he was hardly alone at the time. He apparently had a hard time differentiating between God cutting them loose in the OT and the forgiveness in the NT.
Overall, I have to agree, the Protestant Reformation was inarguably the best thing ever to come out of Germany. Otherwise we'd still be paying for indulgences and asking forgiveness through Priests.
Jesus and Martin Luther changed the world.
I'll agree to disagree (no fan of the catholic church here, either), but from my readings Martin Luther was so evil how could any good movement come from such a person?
Jesus changed the world. Martin Luther protested against a corrupt system with what may very well be apostasy. I would have preferred the catholic church be cleaned up (like Jesus throwing the money changers out of the temple). But that's for another topic. This website doesn't have enough bandwidth to explore this topic in depth.
I'm not a totally given over fan of Luther, I am not Lutheran. And there is probably much wrong in his actions, but I will stand by the idea that the reformation was a good and much, much needed idea. God used even an adulterer and murder (King David) for His righteous purposes. Though Luther was very much a sinner and a product of his times, he still did some good. I'll leave it at that.
Agreed with you both, we need to leave well enough alone.
In the overall scheme of things, I'm more upset I can't have a legit MP5 than I am that they won't sell to Israel.
PattonWasRight
09-27-17, 13:52
Ya' know ... with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, Jews will claim that this is the first Coming of the Messiah.
Christians will say it's His Second Coming.
Arm chair quarterbacking in my opinion, as either way, the result is the same ;- )
I am surprised that the media hasn't picked up on HK & Israel. If they did, I think it'd go viral fast and HK would reconsider. I'm skeptical they're doing this because they hate Jews, but I could be naive about that. Don't know who's calling the plays there, could be a Jew hater. Or, could be that Germany is following the liberal narrative that Israelis are terrorizing the Palestinians ... that's the trendy thing for sophisticated liberals to promote, dontcha' know.
Ya' know ... with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, Jews will claim that this is the first Coming of the Messiah.
Christians will say it's His Second Coming.
Arm chair quarterbacking in my opinion, as either way, the result is the same ;- )
I am surprised that the media hasn't picked up on HK & Israel. If they did, I think it'd go viral fast and HK would reconsider. I'm skeptical they're doing this because they hate Jews, but I could be naive about that. Don't know who's calling the plays there, could be a Jew hater. Or, could be that Germany is following the liberal narrative that Israelis are terrorizing the Palestinians ... that's the trendy thing for sophisticated liberals to promote, dontcha' know.
I'm pretty sure that by the second coming it will be too late.....that's judgement time.
As for the second part, I think HK is practicing some moral equivalence thinking. Israel is morally equivalent to a whole host of the practitioners of the religion of peace.
PattonWasRight
09-27-17, 16:29
I'm pretty sure that by the second coming it will be too late.....that's judgement time.
As for the second part, I think HK is practicing some moral equivalence thinking. Israel is morally equivalent to a whole host of the practitioners of the religion of peace. Ah, that's right. I knew that and had forgotten ... and here I read the entire "Left Behind" series!
When I called Steyr to get replacement stocks for SSG1 sniper rifles we had captured from Syria, I was told very clearly "we do not sell guns to Jews"
Austrians, sheesh. Always stirring up sh!t
Austrians, sheesh. Always stirring up sh!t
My 94 year old father in law was with the 16th Infantry Regt. during WW2 and was at Omaha Beach. After the war, went to college, commissioned going back into the Army. From 1950-1957 he was with the 350th Infantry, 88th Division, as part of US Forces Austria, based at Camp Roeder, Salzburg. He told me that there was some town in Austria which was a major railroad center and was bombed several times by the US during WW2. The locals there hated the Americans, probably due to the bombing but it was also a nest of Nazis. The 350th Regiment had an armor component and while on training passing through that town, the Austrian locals would throw rocks and assorted produce at the soldiers.
Having enough of that, while passing through the town on a return trip, the armor troops would cut the corners on the narrow streets and clip the ends off of certain houses. Damn those medieval narrow streets.
When I called Steyr to get replacement stocks for SSG1 sniper rifles we had captured from Syria, I was told very clearly "we do not sell guns to Jews"
That pisses me off. When was that?
Such hate is not genetic, it is learned behavior.
Absolutely.
It was like 12 to 15 years ago.
It was like 12 to 15 years ago.
Thats Messed Up!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It was like 12 to 15 years ago.
Did he actually say Jews or Israelis?
Either way, you should have reported him for poor customer service.
jerrysimons
09-29-17, 07:38
Did he actually say Jews or Israelis?
Either way, you should have reported him for poor customer service.
An artificial distinction in most instances. Anti-Israel(ism) is the new anti-semetism, almost always. The well of information on the issue is so poisoned here that people can't even identify their own double standards on the matter. Israel is also a very secular nation by demographic and value of a pluralistic society. It is the most free society in the Middle East.
Also Judaism is a religion, jewish is a people group. There is a huge difference especially in Israel where you are likely to find agnostic young people weary of violence yet who know no other option than continued military strength for the sustained preservstion of their people.
A western firearms company not selling guns to the nation of Israel? Choose either spineless politics or informed/ uninformed anti-semetism
The locals there hated the Americans, probably due to the bombing but it was also a nest of Nazis. The 350th Regiment had an armor component and while on training passing through that town, the Austrian locals would throw rocks and assorted produce at the soldiers.
Having enough of that, while passing through the town on a return trip, the armor troops would cut the corners on the narrow streets and clip the ends off of certain houses. Damn those medieval narrow streets.
Austria was not unified in their support for their neighbor's policies.
I am friends with an Austrian alive during the war who worked in the Steyr Automotive factory as a young apprentice through adulthood. And who happens to be of Jewish descent. Served in the Austrian Army, as they all did.
Painting with broad brush statements is nearly always inaccurate. Kind of like saying "Americans are racist"
A western firearms company not selling guns to the nation of Israel? Choose either spineless politics or informed/ uninformed anti-semetism
Or just possibly, following the (misguided) regulations of the country they operate in.
Wrong as it is, many countries do not allow arms sales to Israel. That would probably include individuals working for an agency trying to purchase items for their agency.
I agree though, anti-Israel is the new anti-semitism.
He said Jews, the next thing I heard was the phone being hung up.
We solved the problem in house at less cost and we got a lot of service out of the rifles.
I agree though, anti-Israel is the new anti-semitism.
When I hear or use the phrase 'anti-Israel' or 'anti-Israeli' I do not think of individual people, rather the government of Israel and their policies/actions.
I don't think that equates to anti-Semitism.
Just as in America, I'm sure there are Israelite's who are fed up with their government, others who wholeheartedly support their government, and those who are somewhat in the middle, depending on the issue.
So when I say I'm not a fan of the Israeli government, which I'm not, that certainly doesn't equate to being against Judaism.
Reference the weapon sales, HK said in their annual report:
"Heckler & Koch chose a new strategy in spring 2016. As a consequence we have withdrawn from the crisis regions of the world."
"we are not seeking to take part in new tenders in non-green countries." "Green countries" are defined by company's the own criteria, based on three classification systems: NATO membership or being a "NATO-equivalent country" (Japan, Australia, New Zealand, and Switzerland), Transparency International's corruption index, and the Economist Intelligence Unit's democracy index.
Israel is not a NATO member, or a NATO-Equivalent Country.
Israel ranks 28th in the Transparency International Corruption Index, the UAE, Chile and The Bahamas tie for 24th. HK won't sell to the UAE.
http://issuu.com/transparencyinternational/docs/2016_cpireport_en?e=2496456/43483458
Israel ranks 36th in Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index, placing it in the 'flawed Democracy' category. The UAE ranks well below Israel in this category, coming in at 152. http://www.sudestada.com.uy/Content/Articles/421a313a-d58f-462e-9b24-2504a37f6b56/Democracy-index-2014.pdf
Turkey, a NATO member they wont sell to, ranks 98th in the Democracy Index and 75th in the Corruption Index.
I guess they figure that Israel is in a 'crisis region' and this is exacerbated by the fact they aren't NATO-aligned.
I would think most of the Nazi's are dead.
He said Jews, the next thing I heard was the phone being hung up.
We solved the problem in house at less cost and we got a lot of service out of the rifles.
See, I would have wrote a nasty letter and had it sent certified mail to be sure he got it.
I wont name names but there are gun manfs. who will never see a dime from me.
When I hear or use the phrase 'anti-Israel' or 'anti-Israeli' I do not think of individual people, rather the government of Israel and their policies/actions.
I don't think that equates to anti-Semitism.
Just as in America, I'm sure there are Israelite's who are fed up with their government, others who wholeheartedly support their government, and those who are somewhat in the middle, depending on the issue.
So when I say I'm not a fan of the Israeli government, which I'm not, that certainly doesn't equate to being against Judaism.
Reference the weapon sales, HK said in their annual report:
"Heckler & Koch chose a new strategy in spring 2016. As a consequence we have withdrawn from the crisis regions of the world."
"we are not seeking to take part in new tenders in non-green countries." "Green countries" are defined by company's the own criteria, based on three classification systems: NATO membership or being a "NATO-equivalent country" (Japan, Australia, New Zealand, and Switzerland), Transparency International's corruption index, and the Economist Intelligence Unit's democracy index.
Israel is not a NATO member, or a NATO-Equivalent Country.
Israel ranks 28th in the Transparency International Corruption Index, the UAE, Chile and The Bahamas tie for 24th. HK won't sell to the UAE.
http://issuu.com/transparencyinternational/docs/2016_cpireport_en?e=2496456/43483458
Israel ranks 36th in Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index, placing it in the 'flawed Democracy' category. The UAE ranks well below Israel in this category, coming in at 152. http://www.sudestada.com.uy/Content/Articles/421a313a-d58f-462e-9b24-2504a37f6b56/Democracy-index-2014.pdf
Turkey, a NATO member they wont sell to, ranks 98th in the Democracy Index and 75th in the Corruption Index.
I guess they figure that Israel is in a 'crisis region' and this is exacerbated by the fact they aren't NATO-aligned.
I would think most of the Nazi's are dead.
That explains a lot, doesn't necessarily excuse it, but it at least explains it. Either way, it's not like Israel was using a lot of HK product anyway so it's kind of like Russia declaring they will no longer supply automobiles to the US market because they don't feel we have adequate fuel efficiency standards. It makes HK feel better, Israel could care less and really it only makes HK look bad to some of their customer base which is the opposite of what they think they are accomplishing.
There are people in the US market that will no longer buy their product because they declared they won't sell to a country that was never buying their stuff in the first place. I really wish a high school kid that passed economics 101 could run the company for a year and just explain the stupid things they are doing to themselves.
Either way, it's not like Israel was using a lot of HK product anyway so it's kind of like Russia declaring they will no longer supply automobiles to the US market because they don't feel we have adequate fuel efficiency standards.
The only thing that worries me about not getting along with Russia is that in retribution they will stop importation of Ural Motorcycles before I get one.
An Israeli company is the only one that I know of that makes a rail for a MP5SD, me thinks there may be some HK's in service there.
An Israeli company is the only one that I know of that makes a rail for a MP5SD, me thinks there may be some HK's in service there.
I'm sure there are, but I'm also sure they can get by without them and could easily source them elsewhere if they had to have them. I wonder what the response would be if Israel asked for a contract facility. Would be terribly ironic if they said no after setting up Saudi, Pakistan and Turkey.
Also the fact that CAA makes something, doesn't mean it's for the Israel market, they are like the Tapco of Israel. And if you want a real rail for the SD, B&T makes the one you want.
Austrian firearms industry is complex. I could not find a source that I could cut and paste text from, but they have self imposed regulations that have only become stricter since EU. These are constitutional in nature and not limited to just the firearms industry, but do have specific policy regarding sale of military ordinance.
There are several, but two clauses create issues with Israel:
- Cannot sell to countries actively involved in military conflict
- Cannot sell to countries with a pattern of human rights violations
(both of these are paraphrased)
You can argues about these and whether Israel meets them. But for most of the world (for sure, much of Europe), they believe both of these to be true for Israel. And has been for a while.
And yet, Austria *wants* a domestic firearms industry, as they also have as a core tenet to never be dependent of other countries for the weapons their Army uses. There are some interesting papers on the challenge these two forces (regulation and the desire to be self sufficient) produce. This has been an issue back into the 80's, not new at all.
Also, the Austrian definition of military weapons pretty much includes any semi-automatic, anything with mag capacity greater than 3, hollowpoint pistol ammo, etc. I forget the regulation name, want to say it's "type 2", but these are far more regulated and have to meet the restrictions above. They also have a category roughly similar to our "destructive devices" which are more regulated and require End User Certificates, etc. Can't remember if the middle tier requires them.
The EU has now embraced this thinking, and most of the laws/policy Austria has had for a while are now EU law as well. So you are going to see it become harder and harder for European companies to sell interesting firearms.
So maybe the guy was anti-semitic... but he probably could not have sold parts for what they consider military rifles to anyone in Israel even if he wanted to. Many Austrians are extremely literal, almost like the Swiss.
If EUC is not required, it's still possible for weapons and parts to make its way into countries they are not allowed to sell to. But a company or distributor inside Austria could not.
It's no accident you see the big licensing for local mfg deals, and now, company manufacturing move to the US.
PattonWasRight
09-30-17, 08:49
Thanks for the detail on that ... the EU perspective certainly puts things in a larger context, makes more sense. Not good sense, just sense according to their thinking.
As one of the Jewish persuasion, my heart is warmed that so many in the US stand up for Israel and her right to self protection. Sorta' an important thing given how they're surrounded by enemies hell bent on destroying them.
Diamondback
10-13-17, 17:04
Late to the party, but JUST got my General Discussion permission-slip and, as I PM'ed Greg a few weeks ago, thought this might bear some relevance.
I find it curious that this same HK also set the terrorists in Tehran up with with not just License Build rights, but all the tooling and tech support needed, for them to spin up their own line of MP5 murderguns*... and also something that it's very curious that State Dept. DDTC (the ITAR Extortion Racketeers) and DOJ don't even so much as give a slap on the wrist, when if my own read on ITAR is right because my girlfriend is a Canadian citizen--a citizen of an ALLY, mind you--that just inviting her to join me playing with the AR's, Aimpoints etc. on the range would get me bent over and buttraped for an "Unlicensed Deemed-Export" even without any of the hardware ever leaving my immediate control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP5#Manufacturers
*A term I use only in turning the Left's own tricks against them, much like me calling Paul Allen out for amassing a hoard of Nazi and Soviet Terror Weapons while seeking to ban my AR's and 1911... after all, no honest man needs a kamikaze flying-bomb or ballistic missiles, right?
Just something that I thought might merit consideration for you guys' discussion... especially given the new developments announced this morning. (Seriously, the thought of HK getting hit with sanctions made me gigglesnort my Dr Pepper... that stuff HURTS comin' out your nostrils!)
Late to the party, but JUST got my General Discussion permission-slip and, as I PM'ed Greg a few weeks ago, thought this might bear some relevance.
I find it curious that this same HK also set the terrorists in Tehran up with with not just License Build rights, but all the tooling and tech support needed, for them to spin up their own line of MP5 murderguns*... and also something that it's very curious that State Dept. DDTC (the ITAR Extortion Racketeers) and DOJ don't even so much as give a slap on the wrist, when if my own read on ITAR is right because my girlfriend is a Canadian citizen--a citizen of an ALLY, mind you--that just inviting her to join me playing with the AR's, Aimpoints etc. on the range would get me bent over and buttraped for an "Unlicensed Deemed-Export" even without any of the hardware ever leaving my immediate control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP5#Manufacturers
*A term I use only in turning the Left's own tricks against them, much like me calling Paul Allen out for amassing a hoard of Nazi and Soviet Terror Weapons while seeking to ban my AR's and 1911... after all, no honest man needs a kamikaze flying-bomb or ballistic missiles, right?
Just something that I thought might merit consideration for you guys' discussion... especially given the new developments announced this morning. (Seriously, the thought of HK getting hit with sanctions made me gigglesnort my Dr Pepper... that stuff HURTS comin' out your nostrils!)
The Iranian HK contract was established when the Shah was running things in Iran and at the time they were a western ally.
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