Thinking about a stainless nitrided barrel, anybody have any real world experience?

[Hammer_Man]

I currently have two 18" precision style ARs in my stable, a MK12 mod 1, and a franken build with an F1 barrel. Overall I'm pretty happy with how they both turned out, however it makes no sense to have two precision style guns in the stable. My plan is to use the MK12 for slow paced precision time at the range, and turn my franken gun into my general purpose blaster. I'm not sure how high volume quicker paced shooting will affect the life of the current F1 barrel, as the bore is not chrome lined, or coated at all, but I'm sure it will eventually wear out. Initially I wanted to buy a 4150 CMV chrome lined barrel, because they are known to take abuse, and I find chrome lined barrels require less maintenance than stainless. However, I'm curious about the recent crop of stainless QPQ/Nitride coated barrels that have become available. In my mind they seem to offer the best of both worlds. For one, they are available in multiple profiles which I like, because I prefer a medium to heavy profile barrel over the standard govt. profile. (Most CMV chrome barrels only come in govt. profile) Furthermore, if I can purchase something that offers the accuracy of a stainless barrel, and offers the longevity and ease of cleaning of a chrome lined barrel I would be a happy camper. Does anybody have any experience with stainless nitride coated barrels? How has the performance of the barrel held up with time/use? Does the nitride finish lend itself to easy clean ups after a day at the range?

Just as an aside the barrels I'm considering are: Faxon 18" heavy fluted, Criterion 18" stainless nitride, and Seekins 18" stainless nitride.

[Jsp10477]

I have a Lothar Walther that was melonited. I think it's getting close to 3k rounds. Most of those have been 69gr smk's. It took a little while to settle in initially but shoots really good. It cleans up pretty easy. It holds a little more copper than the ARP barrels we shoot do but it's still not much. We looked at it with a bore scope at around 2k rounds. It didn't have any of the cracking you usually see. It's been hot a couple of times but never used as a bullet hose. Over all, I'm pleased with it. I won't buy another one though. The ARP's shoot just as good, are ported smaller, 4150 cmv, 5/8x24 threaded muzzles, and cost about $100 less.

I've never owned a Faxon, Criterion, or Seekins barrel so I can't recommend them.

[BrigandTwoFour]

IMO, I don't see the point of nitriding a stainless barrel.

Cost savings aside (another reason nitriding has grown in popularity: it's cheaper than chrome lining), the benefit to nitriding was that it could be done to a barrel without negatively affecting its accuracy. To me, that is a real plus when done to a well-made CMV barrel that can be machined to a lighter profile.

While I see the potential benefit of doing the process to a stainless barrel for the purpose of increasing surface hardness and longevity, my understanding is that there is a very real risk of messing with the barrel's heat treatment/temper. Nitriding requires heating the barrel to around 750-1050°F. Coincidentally, that is also around the same temperatures used for tempering stainless steel barrels. I'm sure high quality barrel makers can account for that, but what are you really gaining over a tougher CMV barrel?

[Jsp10477]

Deleted

[Hammer_Man]

Thanks for the replies. The reason I'm mostly interested in a stainless barrel, is that I'm having a tough time finding a CMV barrel that is 18" with a rifle gas system in a medium, or heavy fluted profile. I will have to check out ARP barrels, I've never heard of them before.

[Jsp10477]

Daniel defense 18" s2w is rifle gassed. AR15Performance has 3 different 18" rifle gas options. There may be others. These are both 4150cmv. ARP barrels are button rifled and the DD is hammer forged.

Criterion claims as good as half moa accuracy from their chrome lined barrels. They have hbar and hybrid profile options.

[bp7178]

I'd speculate that everyone with a Larue rifle may be using a nitrided and/or melonite stainless barrel. IIRC, Noveske holds some type of patent regarding same. I can't say anything bad about mine. It seems on par with my old Bartlein/Compass Lake SPR barrel.

I haven't viewed for myself where Criterion claims 1/2 MOA out of their barrels. Double BS for a chrome lined barrel. Anyone who claims that for a AR15 barrel IMO is full of shit. Using worked up handloads that MAY be possible in extremely rare cases, but I still call bullshit unless I saw it in person. We're talking machine rested bull barrels and very precise reloading techniques.

I've shot hundreds of measured groups. IMO, a VERY accurate AR15 will hover just below 1 to 3/4 MOA when averaged over many groups over time. Using very high quality factory loads, this will be closer to or just above 1 MOA on average. I've shot extremely small groups, but they are a statistical rarity. Its very dishonest to take the smallest group you've ever shot and claim that to be the average accuracy of the complete shooter/rifle/ammo combo.

[Jsp10477]

May have been a fake account, but there's a post by "Criterion Barrels" insinuating such on this site.

https://youtu.be/11pCSTWXuBg Criterion Video

[Eurodriver]

There is absolutely no way someone is shooting 1.5" at 300 yards with a chrome lined AR15 barrel. The manufacturing process alone on a button rifled barrel almost guarantees that you will get more vertical dispersion than that at 300 with .223/5.56mm. Add in the chrome lining itself and I'll go so far as to say it isn't even possible, let alone guaranteed.

My suggestion would be to grab a BCM SS410 barrel as these are generally slower to wear than the more common SS416. I wouldn't mess with a nitrided stainless barrel or anything of that nature, but I'm also generally conservative.

[Jsp10477]

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?199426-Choosing-barrel

Post #9

I have no dog in the fight.

[Jsp10477]

I'd speculate that everyone with a Larue rifle may be using a nitrided and/or melonite stainless barrel. IIRC, Noveske holds some type of patent regarding same. I can't say anything bad about mine. It seems on par with my old Bartlein/Compass Lake SPR barrel.

I haven't viewed for myself where Criterion claims 1/2 MOA out of their barrels. Double BS for a chrome lined barrel. Anyone who claims that for a AR15 barrel IMO is full of shit. Using worked up handloads that MAY be possible in extremely rare cases, but I still call bullshit unless I saw it in person. We're talking machine rested bull barrels and very precise reloading techniques.

I've shot hundreds of measured groups. IMO, a VERY accurate AR15 will hover just below 1 to 3/4 MOA when averaged over many groups over time. Using very high quality factory loads, this will be closer to or just above 1 MOA on average. I've shot extremely small groups, but they are a statistical rarity. Its very dishonest to take the smallest group you've ever shot and claim that to be the average accuracy of the complete shooter/rifle/ammo combo.

This gent stated his button rifled larue seems on par with his Bartlien. None of my button rifled barrels shoot as good as my kreiger.

[hdrolling]

I don't have it yet but the group buy I'm on for a 20" Faxon barrel in 6.5 Grendel is 416R stainless and is Inside and outside finished in QPQ nitride. 1:8, 5R-EE, button-rifled.

The reasons we went with stainless


Theoretically, stainless is easier to machine, thus allowing more precise machining, thus allowing more precise tolerances in all barrel dimensions, thus allowing better accuracy, insofar as accuracy is a function of a more precisely machined barrel.

Generally, stainless isn't as durable as CMV, but the beauty of meloniting stainless is that it brings the durability back up, while retaining its precision.

[Mike14_07]

Arent sionics 18" spr barrels stainless and melonited?

[pat701]

Arent sionics 18" spr barrels stainless and melonited?

I didn't know that S/S Melonited where manufactured. If so, sounds good to me JMHO.

[nightchief]

I have a LaRue 18" Stealth barrel...

Approx 1800 rds thru it...I'm able to get 1.25 MOA at 100 yards with Hornady 73 gr ELD and 75 gr OTM (10 rd test group)
On a Lite wind day, will shoot sub 2 moa at 500 yards (8" steel gong) with Hornady 73gr ELD and BH 77gr TMK...

If I were building my rifle again, I would get a 20" LaRue or 20" Krieger...melonite treatment not withstanding

NC

[MQ105]

Arent sionics 18" spr barrels stainless and melonited?

Yes, they are. They look similar to the Stretch 16 and Strongside Tactical 11.5". I wonder if they're made by the same folks...

[titsonritz]

Arent sionics 18" spr barrels stainless and melonited?

http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/18/129-5-chrome-lined-w-low-profile-gas-block.html

These are Limited Production and only a handful are available.
This SPR Barrel features a .223 Wylde Chamber, M4 Extension and Rifle-Length gas system.
Features:
416R Stainless Steel
M4 Barrel Extension
.223 Wylde Chamber
1/8 Twist Rate
SIONICS Designed SPR Profile and Fluting
Bead Blast and pasivated Finish
Standard 1/2X28 Muzzle Threading
Rifle-Length Gas System
X-Rayed and MP Inspected
Melonite Coated
Note: All barrels are pre-dimpled for low profile gas block usage.

[Biggy]

I have one of the Lothar Walther 29 oz mid weight barrels below. It is plenty accurate, is ported the correct size and has no issues.


http://www.customar15.net/product/lothar-walther-223-wylde-match-grade-barrel-life-hd/

[Cold/Bore]

I'd speculate that everyone with a Larue rifle may be using a nitrided and/or melonite stainless barrel. IIRC, Noveske holds some type of patent regarding same. I can't say anything bad about mine. It seems on par with my old Bartlein/Compass Lake SPR barrel.

I haven't viewed for myself where Criterion claims 1/2 MOA out of their barrels. Double BS for a chrome lined barrel. Anyone who claims that for a AR15 barrel IMO is full of shit. Using worked up handloads that MAY be possible in extremely rare cases, but I still call bullshit unless I saw it in person. We're talking machine rested bull barrels and very precise reloading techniques.

I've shot hundreds of measured groups. IMO, a VERY accurate AR15 will hover just below 1 to 3/4 MOA when averaged over many groups over time. Using very high quality factory loads, this will be closer to or just above 1 MOA on average. I've shot extremely small groups, but they are a statistical rarity. Its very dishonest to take the smallest group you've ever shot and claim that to be the average accuracy of the complete shooter/rifle/ammo combo.

This guys has a lot of experience with a criterion 18" hybrid barrel:

http://www.thenewrifleman.com/criterion-18-inch-hybrid-profile-update/

Seems to be getting good results with 10 shot groups from hand loads, but it is only a sample size of one. He also seems to be a fairly skilled rifleman. He seems to be pleasantly surprised despite it being chrome lined. Here is his conclusion (but you should probably read his entire article and the other previous articles) :

"The Criterion product certainly excels on several fronts: It is chrome lined. It is a tapered profile so there is weight savings vs SPR and HBAR assemblies. With accurate loadings it can produce mean radius groups that are running at about 1/2 half a minute. What’s more to say? An excellent product speaks for itself."

[bp7178]

This gent stated his button rifled larue seems on par with his Bartlien. None of my button rifled barrels shoot as good as my kreiger.

Yup. Keep in mind we're talking gas guns here. If you were to bring that same point to bolt guns, where its MUCH easier to extract a higher level of accuracy its a different discussion. When I shoot for groups its off of a rear squeeze bag and a bipod from a bench. I understand that this is a limiting factor as well, as is using a semiautomatic rifle.

All other things being equal, barrel profile, chamber etc...the technique used to form the rifling isn't going to make a barrel more accurate, but rather longer lasting in its accuracy and of course workmanship is paramount.

I'm not knocking Criterion, but 1/2 MOA expressed as an average out of an AR15 is complete bullshit.

Cherry picked 3-round groups? Sure. Just chalk up the groups that are larger as having fliers and shooter error...Its just horse shit. All of my measured groups are 5 shots, and there are no discounts. No fliers. The groups are what they are.

IMO, the biggest limitation to accuracy is ammunition. Melonite, rifling type...not where near as important as quality ammo.

[Knife_Sniper]

I'd speculate that everyone with a Larue rifle may be using a nitrided and/or melonite stainless barrel. IIRC, Noveske holds some type of patent regarding same. I can't say anything bad about mine. It seems on par with my old Bartlein/Compass Lake SPR barrel.

I haven't viewed for myself where Criterion claims 1/2 MOA out of their barrels. Double BS for a chrome lined barrel. Anyone who claims that for a AR15 barrel IMO is full of shit. Using worked up handloads that MAY be possible in extremely rare cases, but I still call bullshit unless I saw it in person. We're talking machine rested bull barrels and very precise reloading techniques.

I've shot hundreds of measured groups. IMO, a VERY accurate AR15 will hover just below 1 to 3/4 MOA when averaged over many groups over time. Using very high quality factory loads, this will be closer to or just above 1 MOA on average. I've shot extremely small groups, but they are a statistical rarity. Its very dishonest to take the smallest group you've ever shot and claim that to be the average accuracy of the complete shooter/rifle/ammo combo.

How about 10 round groups from a button rifled chrome lined barrel?

http://i0.wp.com/www.thenewrifleman.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/STJ-7-5-17-Hornady-53-eld-cold-bore.jpg

Sample size of 2, both ten round groups.

http://i0.wp.com/www.thenewrifleman.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/STJ-8-21-17-On-Target-Hornady-53-ELD-match.jpg

The Criterion + Straight Jacket has shown tremendous accuracy potential and it is simply a button rifled barrel which is chrome lined. Those groups are from a 10x bushnell optic and my 52 Hornady ELD match loads over 25 of varget. I am sure if I had a machine rest this barrel could do better.

I was introduced to Teludyne Tech and the straight jacket by David Bailey who agreed to jacket my Criterion chrome lined barrel for T&E.

The mean radius is always smaller than the extreme spread, and is a valuable measurement. I have learned many things since first testing the Criterion and the barrel has evolved into something quite new. I would say never deal in absolutes. Chrome lined barrels are never that accurate right? This one is.

Or at least the chrome lining isnt destroying or diminishing the potential I would say.

I will agree with the satement that ammo is paramount.

[Jsp10477]

There is absolutely no way someone is shooting 1.5" at 300 yards with a chrome lined AR15 barrel. The manufacturing process alone on a button rifled barrel almost guarantees that you will get more vertical dispersion than that at 300 with .223/5.56mm. Add in the chrome lining itself and I'll go so far as to say it isn't even possible, let alone guaranteed.

Assuming, let alone almost guaranteeing, that a button rifled barrel can't be as accurate at distance (based on rifling process) as a cut rifled barrel is laughable. Most understand the advantages of cut rifling. Most properly stress relieved, lapped, etc, match grade button rifled barrels cost about as much as a barrel from Kreiger direct. The White Oak's seem to be the exception.

I never saw a 1/2" guarantee in anything posted.

[Hammer_Man]

Hey everybody thanks for the replies. After reading some of the input from this thread, and reading some reviews on the net, I decided to go ahead and order a Daniel Defense 18" rifle length S2W barrel. The current production models of this barrel are listed as having a chrome lined bore, but most reviews state it is a pretty accurate barrel none the less. I'm sure it will all come down to ammo selection, and my own abilities (or lack thereof), but I'm sure this barrel will serve me well for a long time.

[Cold/Bore]

How about 10 round groups from a button rifled chrome lined barrel?

http://i0.wp.com/www.thenewrifleman.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/STJ-7-5-17-Hornady-53-eld-cold-bore.jpg

Sample size of 2, both ten round groups.

http://i0.wp.com/www.thenewrifleman.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/STJ-8-21-17-On-Target-Hornady-53-ELD-match.jpg

The Criterion + Straight Jacket has shown tremendous accuracy potential and it is simply a button rifled barrel which is chrome lined. Those groups are from a 10x bushnell optic and my 52 Hornady ELD match loads over 25 of varget. I am sure if I had a machine rest this barrel could do better.

I was introduced to Teludyne Tech and the straight jacket by David Bailey who agreed to jacket my Criterion chrome lined barrel for T&E.

The mean radius is always smaller than the extreme spread, and is a valuable measurement. I have learned many things since first testing the Criterion and the barrel has evolved into something quite new. I would say never deal in absolutes. Chrome lined barrels are never that accurate right? This one is.

Or at least the chrome lining isnt destroying or diminishing the potential I would say.

I will agree with the satement that ammo is paramount.

You must be Lothean at thenewrifleman.com . I enjoy your articles. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[hdrolling]

Hey everybody thanks for the replies. After reading some of the input from this thread, and reading some reviews on the net, I decided to go ahead and order a Daniel Defense 18" rifle length S2W barrel. The current production models of this barrel are listed as having a chrome lined barrel, but most reviews state it is a pretty accurate barrel none the less. I'm sure it will all come down to ammo selection, and my own abilities (or lack thereof), but I'm sure this barrel will serve me well for a long time.

My DD M4V11 PRO has this barrel and it's very good. I'm sure it will work for what your wanting to do with it.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4409/36696217392_2aa685f77e_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/XUHGXj)dd 1 (https://flic.kr/p/XUHGXj) by hd_rolling (https://www.flickr.com/photos/22585324@N07/), on Flickr

[bp7178]

How about 10 round groups from a button rifled chrome lined barrel?

Sample size of 2, both ten round groups.

The Criterion + Straight Jacket has shown tremendous accuracy potential and it is simply a button rifled barrel which is chrome lined. Those groups are from a 10x bushnell optic and my 52 Hornady ELD match loads over 25 of varget. I am sure if I had a machine rest this barrel could do better.

I was introduced to Teludyne Tech and the straight jacket by David Bailey who agreed to jacket my Criterion chrome lined barrel for T&E.

The mean radius is always smaller than the extreme spread, and is a valuable measurement. I have learned many things since first testing the Criterion and the barrel has evolved into something quite new. I would say never deal in absolutes. Chrome lined barrels are never that accurate right? This one is.

Or at least the chrome lining isnt destroying or diminishing the potential I would say.

I will agree with the satement that ammo is paramount.

Kind of illustrates my point. Both are extremely accurate groups. But, neither is 1/2 MOA. I understand the difference between mean radius and extreme spread, but for purposes of this conversation no one was talking about mean radius. The accuracy of factory Criterion barrels was called into question due to a rather dubious claim about them being 1/2 MOA. Putting a jacket on a factory barrel...its no longer a factory barrel.

[Knife_Sniper]

Kind of illustrates my point. Both are extremely accurate groups. But, neither is 1/2 MOA. I understand the difference between mean radius and extreme spread, but for purposes of this conversation no one was talking about mean radius. The accuracy of factory Criterion barrels was called into question due to a rather dubious claim about them being 1/2 MOA. Putting a jacket on a factory barrel...its no longer a factory barrel.

Point taken sir. This combination is not 1/2 moa 100% of the time. Its only 1/2 moa 75% of the time.

75 percent of the group for both targets is .48 MOA out of a sample of 20 shots. Ergo when my performance, the barrels performance, and the loads performance are in sync I can count on the majority of my shots to land with 1/2 minute and then the latter 25 percent to land within a sub minute.

So what defines a 1/2 minute rifle? A sample size of 100 where each bullet lands within a 1/2 minute? That would be pretty definitive but almost impossible due to the human, environmental, and rifle/load factors coming into play.

Likewise we can agree thst 3 and 5 shot groups dont paint a perfect picture either.

As you suggested, an inteligent shooter should look at multiple shots over time. Wether we compress the shots into two ten round groups or 10 - 5 shot groups really is just semantic. That's simply our prefered way of chopping up the human /load / rifle performance into chunks of manageable data... But they must all be averaged.

When we superimpose our groups to paint the picture of rifle/shooter/load performance we will undoubtedly have flyers and as such we *can* call those outliers since they should be in the minority of a good group. Should they be discounted? No.

Hence if 75% of my rounds land within a 1/2 minute thats satisfactory to me on a gas gun. If the flyers, be they mechanical or shooter error still land within sub moa that is still satisfactory to me. That tells me that the rifle, load, and shooter are doing something consistent 75 percent of the time.

Whats the next biggest factor in this rifles accuracy? Shooter. To err is human. I did my best but no doubt I am the likely next biggest source of precision loss in those above groups. I am not a machine rest and I found it fatiguing to shoot those groups with a 10x scope.

Now on to my point:

In the grand scheme of things, do you really believe criterions chrome lining process is the limiting factor in this particluar rifles precision?

I do not.

I will aquire more magnification and re-shoot this load later this fall / winter.