View Full Version : Battle to the death! CZP10 vs G19g5 vs M&P 2.0 Compact (starts on pg 6)
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-23-17, 22:56
Well, I broke down and bought one. I have been looking for a new striker wondergun since my 320 decided to be a piece of crap. I considered a gen 5G19 or waiting for the M&P compact but nah. Initial observations...
1. Great trigger. Squarely in the Vp9/ppq class of negligent discharge enhancing fancy Glock triggers,
2. Great feel. I went back and forth between this and a gen 5 G19 at a shop and there is no getting past the fact that th cz has better ergos.
3. Basically another super Glock.
I took it to the range and shot 150 blazer brass and 50 Wolf. Ran fine. Very easy gun to shoot straight.
A few thoughts on common criticisms...
Slide release. I played with 5. I had zero issues with any of them.
Mag release. As a right handed shooter, no problem. If you were a lefty I think the right side button is stiffer. I am not a devil child so I have no problem. Honestly, it feels almost exactly like my old fnx.
Well, barring early disaster I will do my usual deal and shoot 200-500 rnds through it a week until something gets weird—or I get bored.
This should be interesting. Did you consider the FN509 at all?
—or I get bored.
When you get bored, sell it to me, I'll give you cash and holster for a 92.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-24-17, 08:37
Vegas,
Nah, I already had a FNX and it was awesome. My guess is the 509 is awesome too,
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-24-17, 19:54
200 rounds blazer brass
50 rounds Wolf
30 Rounds 124 Gold Dot +P
15 Rounds 124 Golden Saber +P
12 Rounds of 147 Grain HST
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-24-17, 20:23
Today's Tally...
200 rounds blazer brass
50 rounds Wolf
30 Rounds 124 Gold Dot +P
15 Rounds 124 Golden Saber +P
12 Rounds of 147 Grain HST
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4404/37298045171_f117b2a900_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YPUeok)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/YPUeok) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
Well, I took her out for some Shooting today. No malfunctions but a few lessons...
THE GOOD:
1. ZERO malfunctions. Not even a hint.
2. Superb mechanical and practical Accuracy.
3. Right out of the box I am closing in on some of my fastest Bill drill averages. This gun is blazing fast, which I chalk up to the trigger.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4415/37227964316_2bbdf2a5a3.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YHH3MJ)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/YHH3MJ) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
THE BAD:
The stippling on the back strap is too harsh. I didn't notice it yesterday during my 200 round test drive, but after 200 more today my hand started getting a bit tender. Yes I am a wus. I put some duct tape on the back strap and problem solved. I don't think I would bother filing them down, because it only appears after long strings, and really does help your grip. Very "early USP."
The stiff mag release is stiff. Basically, it doesn't seem like an issue until you are doing something like a 6/6/6 drill where you are doing a lot of mag changes. My first three were terrible. Maybe an additional .5 seconds (essentially it was like a flubbed change every time). After that, things settled down as I got used to the stiffness and made sure to depress the button with a little more force. By the end my performance was average. It is overblown, but not nothing. Kind of like learning to use the HK paddles when you are used to a standard mag button.
The Quirky:
But there is a weird quirk where the tension on the mag release is absurdly tight when a full 15 round magazine is seated on a closed action. Basically, you will need to apply a slight bit of pressure to the base pad with your support hand to get it to release easily. It doesn't effect shooting because it ejects fine when the magazine is empty or down by a round. I can't imagine why you would be one hand dumping a full mag. Still, it is weird.
My theory is the magazines are too short. They tried to stuff 15 rounds in a 13 round mag. The long mag is a 15 round Berretta mag (the foundation of a lot of modern double stack mags, sig, etc), the shortest is a 13 round HK P2000 mag, and the CZ mag is the mag that is barely any longer than the 13 round mag. Obviously, there is a bit more angle to the CZ mag. Also, you can load the HK and Beretta mags without strain. The CZ takes a bit of a shove.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4483/37297950621_c6776301a6.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YPTKha)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/YPTKha) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
I know I am not reinventing the wheel here, I am just reporting what I am seeing.
So, in summary, the gun is fast and reliable, but there is a bit of a learning curve.
I really appreciate this.
Thanks for the update Greg.
I have parted ways with the Glock series of guns but I'd appreciate if anyone could sit a G19 mag beside the P-10/-07 mag.
If you all may remember, the original P-07 mag was 16 rounds (assumedly to have 'more' than the 19) and was absurd to even think of loading 16. It was doable with a mag loader and a lot of force. They backed it down to 15 later on. The P-07 and P-10C mags are identical aside from the -10 mags having a cutout for the ambi release (which the newer -07 mags have as well), so I've always thought of the 15 rounders as very reasonably loaded.
Excellent feedback Greg. Well stated. My experience and sentiment with the P10C mimics yours, thus far.
Evel Baldgui
09-25-17, 13:22
The p10c was a bit disappointing for me, I found no reason for it to substitute for my PPQ's, CZ PO7's, or VP9's which, for me, shoot better, and are more accurate (in my hands).
dwhitehorne
09-25-17, 18:28
Everyone complains about the mag release being to stiff with a loaded mag on the closed slide. I think it is a feature. With the ambi buttons you don't want to bump one and drop a loaded mag while holstered or whatever. With the mag empty, it flies right out like it is suppose to. I haven't seen the stiff release issue as a real problem. David
Coal Dragger
09-25-17, 21:55
For me it would be no issue, but for those who frequently may have to perform administrative unloading/reloading frequently it could be a nuisance.
If that's the biggest fault that can be found though, we have to admit we're being very nit picky.
Good report Greg. After you have it a little longer let us know how you like it compared to the VP9.
Vegas,
Nah, I already had a FNX and it was awesome. My guess is the 509 is awesome too,
If the 320 goes bye bye, FN509 and P10c would be the options. I had an FNP a few years back that I sold. Of course I regret it now.
New out of the box the mag release and the slide release on my two P10-c pistols were really stiff and hard to use. Once the mag springs took a set after leaving them fully loaded for a couple weeks, both became very easy to use. The triggers will also become even nicer with some use, any and all creep will disapear and the trigger break will also become a little lighter. That is just the way these pistols break in. The only thing I will be changing on mine at some point, are ditching the aluminum sights for some steel ones of my preference and also having the frame's beavertail area relieved *just a little bit* more for my thumb comfort. I have also *polished* the feed ramps on mine. I have heard CZ has already made some small tweeks to a few of its small parts and with their assembly processes on the pistol. The CZ P-10c appears to be overbuilt in a lot of areas, so its durability should be fine for the long haul.
I've experienced absolutely nothing with my VP9 that needed to be broken in. It works really well right out of the box.
After shooting Glocks for a couple of decades now, the VP9 was shockingly better in many categories. This was something I didn't entirely expect when I decided to try the VP9, since both are striker fired handguns.
I've experienced absolutely nothing with my VP9 that needed to be broken in. It works really well right out of the box.
After shooting Glocks for a couple of decades now, the VP9 was shockingly better in many categories. This was something I didn't entirely expect when I decided to try the VP9, since both are striker fired handguns.
I had two VP9's went they first came out, but sold them because the finger grooves crowded and pinched my fingers, didn't care for the groove in the trigger guard and I came to the realization that I really prefer pistols closer to the G19 size range, other than that it was a fine pistol, just not for me.
There is no such thing as a handgun that fits everyone perfectly, and you must find what works for you.
I have found my hands to be dead center average sized, both in palm size and finger length. With the interchangeable panels it fits me very well.
One thing about polymer, regardless of the pistol you have you can file down stuff that irritates you, such as finger grooves. It is customization you can do on your own.
FYI, CZ has modified the pocket on the ambi slide release where the slide release spring is installed so it will not come out by accident anymore. It was not a real common problem but can and does happen on some pistols. I heard if you call CZ they will install the modified part if requested, but I don't know if you can just order the part yourself.I like the takedown levers size and placement and the forward cocking serrations beter on the CZ than on my M&P. I believe CZ will be introducing the CZ P-10 Sub-compact at SHOT this year. Just like the P-10c is just a little larger than the G19 and the new M&P compact, the sub-compact will be just a little larger than the G26 and the S&W Sub-compact pistols, making it an ideal double stack carry pistol.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-01-17, 16:51
450 Rounds this week. 300 Blazer Brass, 100 Monarch Steel, 50 Tula Steel.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4386/36725989604_a230976d85_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/XXmicj)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/XXmicj) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
1. Zero malfunctions. The gun burned through all this garbage ammo without a hint of drama.
2. The Trigger is a hint better. A little of the minimal chatter in the take-up has gone away. Basically moving from an A trigger to an A+ trigger.
3. The magazine button is a bit better, nothing remarkable. I think most of the folks who say that it loosened up after 500 rounds are really just getting used to the button and making sure to hit it with force.
I left the magazines fully loaded all week to see if it would alleviate the issue with a fully loaded magazine being dificult to eject.
Note: I took a class with Larry Vickers years ago where he advised his students to down load their Glock magazines by one round so that they could be easily seated in the gun during a stress reload. Basically, if you follow this advice with the P10 you will never have the issue with trying to eject a full mag. And again, if you decide you need to eject a fully loaded magazine you just apply a bit of pressure to the magazine base and problem solved. Not a big deal at all..and most of it can be chalked up to people thinking what they are used to is "right." Because people are used to Glocks few people notice how lethargic the mag ejection is on the Glock. I suspect this is because the original gun didn’t even have drop-free mags, and needing to do speed reloads in a gun that holds 17 rounds probably seemed absurd to old man Glock back in 1980. T
4. I did some comparison shooting with my Glock 17. I basically did Bill Drills and 666 drills with both guns using the Glock 17 holster (which fit the CZ fine for these purposes). I noticed that on the first string of 666 (which has a concealed reload) the Glock was faster. But after that, the CZ was faster on every drill. That isn’t bad considering I have been shooting Glocks for 20+ years at this point. That being said, I think it call all be chalked up to the lighter trigger in the CZ (although the modern ergos certainly don’t hurt.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4455/37178259670_ecbeabb5be_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YDjik5)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/YDjik5) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
5. By the way, I haven’t cleaned the gun. I just dropped a little lube on the rails when I first bought it. I haven’t even taken the slide off. My plan is to complete the late great Todd G’s 2000 round challenge before I clean it.
I am going to order a holster for my Xc1 and some night sights now that I know the gun is going to work.
Cincinnatus15
10-06-17, 10:28
450 Rounds this week. 300 Blazer Brass, 100 Monarch Steel, 50 Tula Steel.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4386/36725989604_a230976d85_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/XXmicj)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/XXmicj) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
1. Zero malfunctions. The gun burned through all this garbage ammo without a hint of drama.
2. The Trigger is a hint better. A little of the minimal chatter in the take-up has gone away. Basically moving from an A trigger to an A+ trigger.
3. The magazine button is a bit better, nothing remarkable. I think most of the folks who say that it loosened up after 500 rounds are really just getting used to the button and making sure to hit it with force.
I left the magazines fully loaded all week to see if it would alleviate the issue with a fully loaded magazine being dificult to eject.
Note: I took a class with Larry Vickers years ago where he advised his students to down load their Glock magazines by one round so that they could be easily seated in the gun during a stress reload. Basically, if you follow this advice with the P10 you will never have the issue with trying to eject a full mag. And again, if you decide you need to eject a fully loaded magazine you just apply a bit of pressure to the magazine base and problem solved. Not a big deal at all..and most of it can be chalked up to people thinking what they are used to is "right." Because people are used to Glocks few people notice how lethargic the mag ejection is on the Glock. I suspect this is because the original gun didn’t even have drop-free mags, and needing to do speed reloads in a gun that holds 17 rounds probably seemed absurd to old man Glock back in 1980. T
4. I did some comparison shooting with my Glock 17. I basically did Bill Drills and 666 drills with both guns using the Glock 17 holster (which fit the CZ fine for these purposes). I noticed that on the first string of 666 (which has a concealed reload) the Glock was faster. But after that, the CZ was faster on every drill. That isn’t bad considering I have been shooting Glocks for 20+ years at this point. That being said, I think it call all be chalked up to the lighter trigger in the CZ (although the modern ergos certainly don’t hurt.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4455/37178259670_ecbeabb5be_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YDjik5)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/YDjik5) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
5. By the way, I haven’t cleaned the gun. I just dropped a little lube on the rails when I first bought it. I haven’t even taken the slide off. My plan is to complete the late great Todd G’s 2000 round challenge before I clean it.
I am going to order a holster for my Xc1 and some night sights now that I know the gun is going to work.
Looks like you've got yourself a solid pistol.. very nice. Any other updates? I think I'm going to rent one today, compare it to my 19.
All this stuff about mag releases. Every button gun has challenges, fixes, extensions, mods, blah blah. If folks used paddles a la P99 no troubles no mods.
Nothing wrong with the paddle mag releases that I had on my PPQ and VP9 pistols that I used to own, I liked them. But the * factory* button mag releases on my P-10C, Glock Gen 5 and my M&P compact work just fine for me also, I feel no need to modify them at all. I don't feel the least bit hindered by them in anyway. Of coarse YMMV
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-06-17, 20:39
You mean paddles like the H&K P7M series!
I would love paddles on this gun. Oh yeah, that would just be a vp9
You mean paddles like the H&K P7M series!
I would love paddles on this gun. Oh yeah, that would just be a vp9
Wouldn't the P10C be a little smaller than the VP9?
Agreed on paddles, I honestly find them to be nicer. And this coming from a man who cut his teeth on a Glock. So.....
All this stuff about mag releases. Every button gun has challenges, fixes, extensions, mods, blah blah. If folks used paddles a la P99 no troubles no mods.
Especially considering CZ used a very paddle-like design on the inside (when either mag release button is depressed it basically cams the release to rotate forward), it would be excellent if they at some point made one for the European market that found its way over here. The mags would already be good to go.
My point on the paddles is simply that it is better. Especially the newer HK and the long Walther design. It is ambi by design and in the case of the longer ones, provides max leverage. Many manufacturers have had to change over the years, because typically people's thumbs are not long enough to reach AND have enough leverage. Wait till you push 60 and need advantages. Also - training - you can train out of buttons and into paddles in 5 min. Ask a lefty - use the shooting trigger finger and you're done. While I haven't DUMPED my button guns, I much prefer paddles now - they are just better. My hand stays PERFECTLY positioned for re-engagement while dropping mags.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-07-17, 08:27
I am with you, paddles are great. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem likely to catch on.
After owning two P2000sk's, and I still own a USPc .40, the paddles are my preferred mag release. I have never understood why anyone would have a problem with them, it is so easy to drop the mag with my right middle finger.
Totally agree as well. I’d switch to paddle CZs in a heartbeat.
3ACR_Scout
10-14-17, 11:29
The CZ sounds really interesting - although I'm not ready to jump into a new pistol model anytime soon, I always like to look...
However, I'm a little concerned about the reliability issue demonstrated in this review. I've been watching Barrett Fawbush's videos lately, and while he isn't the most technical reviewer, I find him entertaining and like his practical, down-to-earth take on the products he reviews. At about the 6 minute mark in this video, he puts that P-10C through his "reliability test" that involves dunking it in dirt, sand, and then water. Both the dirt and sand tests induce failures to feed:
The Quest for the Best out of the Box Handgun - CZ-P10c Part 1 (https://youtu.be/k1DMJtWhI8A)
I don't normally rub my pistols in the dirt, but I'd like to be confident that they will function if dropped in the woods, involved in a scrap on the ground, etc. I know that my M9 has certainly gotten that dirty at work before. I'm just curious if anyone has seen anything like this with their own CZs.
EDIT: The pistol performed very well in the MAC torture test:
Torture Test of the CZ P10C 9mm (https://youtu.be/LOLiBG32IC0)
Not sure what the reason is for the different results, unless Fawbush ended up with a slight lemon.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W1jZiqTad3I&feature=youtu.be
Official Kremlin Transmission
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-14-17, 16:17
I am going to hit 2k tomorrow, God willing. I did some interesting comparisons on times agains a b92, p30, G17, etc. results to follow.
hotrodder636
10-14-17, 18:01
Great thread. I am looking for a new pistol to shoot in IDPA. I am looking between a G19 (still miss the one I traded off) and the P10c.
Not sure what the reason is for the different results, unless Fawbush ended up with a slight lemon.
There is no scientific validity to any of the YouTube ‘torture tests’ - any gun can succeed or fail based on the pure luck of a grain of sand or speck of dirt getting in one particular spot. You can see videos of Hi Points running through everything and Glocks failing miserably. They’re non-scientific and a sample size of one.
Long range durability of a large sample size is the only really valid comparison but obviously that requires time and a pretty sizable budget.
Now videos of design issues that lead to malfunctions (ie P320) are a totally differen issue.
Not sure what the reason is for the different results, unless Fawbush ended up with a slight lemon.
There is no scientific validity to any of the YouTube ‘torture tests’ - any gun can succeed or fail based on the pure luck of a grain of sand or speck of dirt getting in one particular spot. You can see videos of Hi Points running through everything and Glocks failing miserably. They’re non-scientific and a sample size of one.
Long range durability of a large sample size is the only really valid comparison but obviously that requires time and a pretty sizable budget.
Now videos of design issues that lead to malfunctions (ie P320) are a totally differen issue.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-14-17, 23:32
I also picked up a gen5 g19 for comparison. Should be interesting.
dwhitehorne
10-15-17, 05:57
Good video. The P10C uses the P07 mags. The original P07 mags use to hold 16 rounds. CZ took the P07 and now P10C mags down to 15 rounds to make them easier to load and seat. I still think the stiff mag release is part of the ambi design. With a full mag that you usually don't want to drop it. With the mag empty it flies right out like it should. The FNS is the only other full ambi push button safety that I know of. If you bump the outside mag button on the FNS while in the holster, the mag easily pops out. I do think it is quirky kind of like my first issued G17 mags didn't drop free. Something we were just not use to. Keep up the good work. I enjoy reading your results. David
Let the games begin!!! No, not really. It looks like the P10 may be getting cut loose...
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m119/HD1911/Mobile%20Uploads/288E7A0E-5CF5-4D17-B415-389F039BCCA7_zpsnuympopq.jpg (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/HD1911/media/Mobile%20Uploads/288E7A0E-5CF5-4D17-B415-389F039BCCA7_zpsnuympopq.jpg.html)
dwhitehorne
10-15-17, 09:13
HD1911 what rear sight is that on the P10C? David
HD1911 what rear sight is that on the P10C? David
https://dawsonprecision.com/new-dawson-precision-cz-p10-c-carry-fixed-sight-set-black-rear-fiber-optic-front/
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m119/HD1911/Mobile%20Uploads/D5C40EB8-3F83-449F-8883-555998B60401_zpshc6ljj6r.jpg (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/HD1911/media/Mobile%20Uploads/D5C40EB8-3F83-449F-8883-555998B60401_zpshc6ljj6r.jpg.html)
[QUOTE=HD1911;2547743]Let the games begin!!! No, not really. It looks like the P10 may be getting cut loose...
Why is it going to get cut loose?
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-15-17, 19:45
Well guys, I drove it over 2000 rounds with zero malfunctions this weekend--and with the exception of 10 rounds everything was Wolf Steel. Sadly, this is the last of my el cheapo steel. I did just get an extra 1000 from Outdoor Limited, but I got such a deal on that Wolf I was sad to run through it.
1. Reliability. Complete. Zero malfunctions of any kind. No failures to lock back, no FTE, No nothing. It achieved this on a diet primarily composed of steel Russian crap. Further, other than when I installed the night sights, I never even took the slide off the gun. I just applied oil to the rail and barrel hood and let fly.
2. Mag release. The mag release is now excellent. I didn't modify anything, I just shot the hell out of the gun. My buddy Dan was back at the range after a few weeks and he was surprised that people had any issue with the mag release (he had not felt it when it was new). I take back what I said earlier about getting used to the mag, it truly did break-in nicely.
3. Comparison shoots.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4468/23870025458_03a8fd0bae_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Cnj7X5)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/Cnj7X5) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr Last week I slacked out of the second day of an AR armorer's course so I went to the range for the third time in a week! to do a massive smack down between various guns. I brought out my Beretta 92G-SD, my CZ, My Glock 17 and My HK P30. I did a series of drills: 1. Bill Drills, 2. 6/6/6 drills and 3. 5 shots at 100 yard plate. I excluded (but noted) all misses and simply restarted the drill. I shot each drill twice, then switched guns, then repeated the process and changed the order. It took a while and I burned through the last of my blazer brass I traded my hated Sig 320 for. The results were interesting to me. The winners were....
1. Beretta 92G-SD. Not really a shocker. I have more than 6k through this specific gun and it is my favorite handgun. The double action is smooth as hell, and everything else about the gun is geared for speed (heavy, light SA trigger, long barrel, long sights, big, hand filling grip.)
2. CZ P10. Not a shocker, but I did think the Glock 17 might be second given the amount of trigger time I have on the gun. But The CZ trigger and (hilariously) extremely positive mag ejection made the CZ easier to do splits and faster to reload. My best combined time was only .1 of a second slower than the Beretta. That tells me things are probably a wash.
3. HK P30. This surprised me! I like the P30 but the gun is dull as dishwater. I respect the gun but I don't really love it. While it was slower than every other gun at splits and on the draw, it was faster than all of them on reloads. I chalk that up to the paddles (which I love and operate with my trigger finger) and the HK's very positive mag ejection. Best combined was .37 slower than the B92.
4. G17. I was stunned at first that I was so slow with this gun. It felt fast. I thought I was shooting as fast or faster than the beretta but the timer doesn't lie. Honestly though, I am 100 percent convinced it all comes down to the grip angle. Every other gun is basically the same, only the G17 has the goofy Glock hump that forces someone used to a conventional angle to be a bit more deliberate in catching the front sight. I think this is the main reason people used to Glocks think everything else is slow. Basically, if you are dialed in on the Glock you are going to have the same issue I was having with all other guns. I also had to give the G17 the most make up drills (for misses). Again, I chalk this up to the grip angle. Best combined was .92 slower than the Beretta 92, even with the make-ups. That tells me if I was currently dialed in on Glocks I would probably be .92 slower with the B92 on combined drill times.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4474/37691062982_33a14cdb1a_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZqCxTu)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/ZqCxTu) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
5. A RIVAL!!!
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4508/37052787703_9b498d0c46_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YsedTi)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/YsedTi) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
I did some trading yesterday and picked up a G19 Gun 5. I am going to run a 2k challenge on it as well. I am considering shooting and equal number of rounds through both of them and seeing which comes out on top.
However I will note...
The G19 trigger is basically identical to my old G17 Gen 3. No where near as good as the CZ, or the VP9 or PPQ.
I shot it today and got ZERO btf or any other signs of erratic ejection.
I shot it faster than My G17. In fact, my best 666 times were within .21 of my CZ. So my guess is they are basically identical. But for some reason I am just faster with my G19 than my G17. Eurodriver may be right that there is something special going on with the G5s. Or it could be a fluke.
The G19 and the P10 are the same size. I laugh when I read people talking about how the CZ is so much bigger. Look, like the G19 if you want, but we are talking about tiny difference in size. And the Glock is actually bulkier through the large part of the grip, and with the Ambi levers, it is getting on the wide side. Again, these guns are functionally identical in size.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4498/37052785213_573d092698_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Ysed9n)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/Ysed9n) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
I cleaned it. Man it was gross. All that crappy wolf filled it with black soot. Weirdly it never got "gritty" in the trigger. I am probably going to clean it every 500 rounds from here out.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4478/37674724186_be78c5eeb7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZpbNW7)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/ZpbNW7) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
7. I put some Cajun gun works night sights in. I installed them myself with a punch and a file. Minor PITA, but the finished product is nice. I am a fan of three dot sights. I recognize that HDs and their copies are a bit nicer, but I like having the same boring sight picture on every gun.
8. I ordered a JM custom Kydex holster for it with the XC1. I am using a local IWB "Tru Fit" holster for now. It does fit crappy Glock holsters, but not my Raven's etc. On the other hand my G19 does fit my CZ holster.
hotrodder636
10-15-17, 20:29
Very nice write up Greg. I have been wanting a Beretta like yours for a few years, just haven’t gotten one yet.
As for the G5-G19 vs the P10c, which had flatter or less felt recoil?
I really wish one of my shooting buddies had a P10c I could shoot before buying one, but they have been getting really good reviews from the objective reviewers.
What about the M&P Compact 2.0?
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-15-17, 21:52
I really want one. Played with one the other day and it felt fantastic but it had a thumb safety. I’m sure I will end up with one at some point.
hotrodder636
10-15-17, 22:28
Have you had any instances where the striker rotated in the channel and prevented the slide from going home? Saw something about this on the Omaha Outdoors video. Only place I have seen this issue so far.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-15-17, 22:46
No. I would definitely note that if I saw it. No problems thus far but I am keeping an eye out.
Have you had any instances where the striker rotated in the channel and prevented the slide from going home? Saw something about this on the Omaha Outdoors video. Only place I have seen this issue so far.
Just for a data point, neither of my two will rotate (even under a fair bit of pressure) far enough to interfere. If I rotate them to the stop and let the slide go (either from slide lock or letting it down slowly) it clears the frame cutout. One has a few thousand rounds through it. I'm not sure if something they did caused it, but it's causing me no concern and no way I'd move away from the platform at this point unless a serious defect was found. It's miles ahead of the Gen 3/4/5 Glocks for me.
hotrodder636
10-15-17, 23:11
Hindsight being 20/20, by you saying ‘no malfunctions ‘, I should’ve known better... LOL.
No. I would definitely note that if I saw it. No problems thus far but I am keeping an eye out.
southswede
10-16-17, 07:40
What about the M&P Compact 2.0?
I just picked one of these up last Thursday. I only have 500 rounds through it. The only "malfunction" was one failure of the slide to lick back after the last round. This was caused by my thumb riding the slide release.
S&W has resolved their M&P 9mm accuracy issues with the 2.0 and the trigger is on par with the rest of the striker fired guns with good triggers. The 2.0 Compact should turn out to be a great gun.
Just for a data point, neither of my two will rotate (even under a fair bit of pressure) far enough to interfere. If I rotate them to the stop and let the slide go (either from slide lock or letting it down slowly) it clears the frame cutout. One has a few thousand rounds through it. I'm not sure if something they did caused it, but it's causing me no concern and no way I'd move away from the platform at this point unless a serious defect was found. It's miles ahead of the Gen 3/4/5 Glocks for me.
Well, my p-10 does it,(was bought this spring, has about 1500rnds on it) and it's not that hard to do, either.. I'm thinking there needs to be a cutout in the backplate for the striker assembly to lock into. I think this would solve the problem. The big unknown here, is what happens when these guns get some rounds/wear&tear on them.. I'm thinking they'll start doing this alot easier. For now, and because of this, I've quit carrying mine. If this were to happen at a time when you needed the gun to work, and this happens, your remedial action options are limited. I'm hoping CZ has a fix in the works, as I see this as a problem that needs addressed, and quickly.
Why is it going to get cut loose?
Among the main reasons are: Comrades running the same platform, parts availability (OEM and aftermarket), magazine availability (prices too), my own ability to thoroughly maintain Glocks, tools, holster availability, sights availability, the fact that the Glock design has proven itself over so many years, etc. Really just the whole program that goes with supporting, maintaining, and staying operational with a Glock. I'm looking at the Total Program. I'm also thoroughly familiar with Glock. I think the P10, even along with the VP9, of which I own both, are phenomenal shooting pistols btw.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-23-17, 18:54
Well, I have gone completely bonkers. I now have a Smith and Wesson 2.0 compact. I took it out this weekend and, guess what? It is also amazing. That means I have on had the top 3 “new hotness” compact handguns of 2017. Here is my crazy plan...
I am going to shoot each of them 200 rounds per week. I am going to clean them at 1000 round intervals and note the wear at each stage. I am also going to shoot them in mixed drills and compare the times. Each week I will shoot them with the same ammunition. I want to keep this fairly simple to manage, so I am planning to do the following....
1. 3 Sets of Bill Drills for each gun. I will “warm up” with one gun a few times before switching to the other to begin recording times.
2. 3 Sets of 6/6/6 Drills for each gun. This incorporates a reload.
I will do other drills (occasional El Prez, etc) and make notes, but I think those drills will keep the measurements simple.
I have already passed 2000 rounds with the and have around 200 each through the Glock and M&P. For the Next few weeks I will do the drills with all three but focus the rest of my shooting on the Glock and M&P until I make the 2k point. I will not be cleaning or oiling the Glock or M&P to see if they can reach the 2k point without maintenance (the P10 has already made this point).
Any other (sane) requests will be considered.
Each of the pistols have three dot green night sights and factory triggers. Each drill will be run from a raven concealment OWB holster. It appears that I can actually run all of the guns with my M&P fullsize Raven holster without issue. This should minimize any equipment variations.
I ran 200 rounds through the M&P on Sunday. It has the exact same POI as the CZ, which will be an advantage. As noted before I shoot an inch higher with my G19 (with Trijicon three dots). But that should not be an issue with the drills.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4474/37633731040_b2349e7944_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZkyH6J)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/ZkyH6J) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
The M&P ran flawlessly with WWB. So did the Glock and CZ. I noticed the following...
1. M&P ergonomics are perfect for me. The grip, mag and slide release, etc all work easily with no adjustment to my normal grip.
2. The Trigger is good. I would say it is roughly the same in quality as the G19. However, both of them are heavier than the CZ but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
3. Paper accuracy wasn’t as good as the G19 or CZ. This might be a fluke, because I have more time with the others. But I did notice a flyer or two during bullseye practice. I will keep an eye on this.
4. The overall quality and design philosophy of the M&P seemed a little more mature than the other two (think the CZ’s mag release and the Glocks goofy slide/frame bevel and afterthought slide release levers).
5. The M&P has an extremely aggressive grip texture. My friend Dan seemed a bit taken aback by this. I really like it, but then again, I like guns with a lot of texturing.
Trivia note! 9mm rounds with light primer strikes from a full auto UZI SMG run fine through the CZ....
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4479/37842594346_7d1afe0456_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZE2bTd)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/ZE2bTd) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
CZ P10 2084 rounds fired, 0 malfunctions, 1 cleaning at 2000 rounds.
G19 468 rounds fired, 0 malfunctions, 0 cleanings
M&P 200 rounds fired, 0 malfunctions, 0 cleanings
Best Bill Drills (by order of testing)
CZ (1.49 draw/ 3.04 overall)
M&P (1.41 draw /2.98 overall)
G19 (1.42 draw/2.85 overall)
Best 6/6/6 from concealment drill of the week (by order of testing):
MP (1.57 draw/2.79 reload/5.73 overall)
Glock19 (1.54 draw/2.71 reload/5.5 overall)
CZ (1.49 draw/ 2.67 reload/ 5.34 overall)
You will notice that I am not that fast these days and humorously my draw times from concealment were basically as fast and unconcealed once I was "warmed up." 2. the "winner" tends to be the last one because by then I am totally warmed up.
ZERO issues with Glock "brass to face" or CZ striker issues.
Thanks for the update Greg, and looking forward to your further info. A great time we live in with so many great choices.
Are you going to sell me the 2.0 compact when you're done with your diabolical plan?
Eurodriver
10-23-17, 19:31
Are you going to sell me the 2.0 compact when you're done with your diabolical plan?
I’ll buy the Gen5 19!
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-23-17, 19:35
I don't know! Each of these guns has impressed the hell out of me. I tend to like each one of the "best" depending on the phase of the moon. Plus Beretta 92 is best!
Please include that VP9. ;)
Eurodriver
10-23-17, 19:42
I don't know! Each of these guns has impressed the hell out of me. I tend to like each one of the "best" depending on the phase of the moon. Plus Beretta 92 is best!
I think we are at a time in the development of the 9mm CCW handgun where any major manufacturer is going to sell a quality, accurate, reliable pistol and preference dictates which to buy. It’s pretty awesome.
Your threads are always informative and entertaining Greg but this one is shaping up to be awesome with the pending deathmatch!
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-23-17, 20:17
I wish I still had a Vp9 to test. But I think a 4th gun would push me beyond my weekly shooting tolerance (I can't believe I am saying that).
Damn I'm jealous. I want all of those. Look forward to your updates.
I will be watching this thread. I have an interest in the Gen5 G19, MP compact and VP9.
Fordtough25
10-24-17, 11:05
Such an exciting thread!!! I’m over 1k through my gen5 19, not an issue yet. And you’re right Berettas rock!!
The VP9 would take 1st place.
Eurodriver
10-24-17, 13:13
The VP9 would take 1st place.
Didn’t you just get called out by a moderator yesterday for making baseless claims?
I like Glock.
I had a VP9. It was a'ight.
But I like Glock because I know it and am used to it.
ETA A Beretta thats not abused can be a guilty pleasure to those with large hands. I had a cheep Vertec I got in the day. For like 3 bills with the 1911 style grip. Should've kept it but I won't go out of my way for one.
Toyed with getting a 92G SD but had other stuff on my plate. That would be a Beretta I would get though
The VP9 would take 1st place.
Your signature alone makes it hard to read anything you post.
The VP9 would take 1st place.
Lol. The size if a 17-19 round gun with only 15 rounds. It doesn’t even fit in this conversation.
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Lol. The size if a 17-19 round gun with only 15 rounds. It doesn’t even fit in this conversation.
Remember, HK keeps mag capacity low because it makes the mags more reliable.
Just look at all the Beretta and CZ and Glock and Sig mags failing left and right...oh no wait...
I say this as someone who loves their 13 round brick of a USP. But we’re beyond 15 round duty size handguns.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-24-17, 18:15
I think H&K is likely the best or one of the best magazine designers in the world. They are very conservative and design a lot of margin of error into their mags — and magazines are a good place to be conservative . You won’t typically be busting your thumbs loading them like many competing designs. Further, you won’t usually need to download a round to insure reliable seating like Vickers recomends with Glocks (and I think you should do with the CZ). I think the fact that HK is typically catering to specific police or military contract requests allows them to ignore the pressure to compromise their designs to stuff in every last round. Just my opinion.
Sure, good points. I guess I should’ve been more specific, the size of a typical 15 round gun (a la G19) is what I was referring to...not round count specifically.
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Glock 19 Gen 5 vs M&P 2.0 Compact vs CZ P10c: Best Pistol Of 2017 ? I own all three of these pistols and at this point of my ownership of them, I tend to agree with the youtube reviewer in his preferance and rating of them. Until I get more rounds down range with all of them though, this is subject to change. *Overall* I don't believe any one of them is really head and shoulders above the other, or blows the other ones away. Hopefully in the next four months or so I can decide on which one of these pistol platforms I want to settle on an keep. The other ones will be sold off, not because they are not great pistols, I just want to settle on one pistol platform. Review vid link below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NffoYs7PBMc&t=10s
Didn’t you just get called out by a moderator yesterday for making baseless claims?
I think you're confused.
I have owned a p320c/p-10c/g19.5
To me the Glock wins. Size is unbeatable. I also shoot it the best. I like the recoil aspects the most. The trigger is my favorite. (Love me da triggers) support is also the best. It has no underlying issues also. No failures with it. It really amazes me how well all the small changes made a difference to me.
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I think H&K is likely the best or one of the best magazine designers in the world. They are very conservative and design a lot of margin of error into their mags — and magazines are a good place to be conservative . You won’t typically be busting your thumbs loading them like many competing designs. Further, you won’t usually need to download a round to insure reliable seating like Vickers recomends with Glocks (and I think you should do with the CZ). I think the fact that HK is typically catering to specific police or military contract requests allows them to ignore the pressure to compromise their designs to stuff in every last round. Just my opinion.
I once heard a man say, "H&K builds fantastic magazines, then builds a pretty good gun around them". It might have been LAV...
davebee456
10-25-17, 08:40
i went from glock to sig to hk back to glock but I just picked up a cheap 92G Used on Gunbroker and MAN ...with the D Spring I am very very impressed. there are a couple more on gunbroker right now btw.
I like Glock.
I had a VP9. It was a'ight.
But I like Glock because I know it and am used to it.
ETA A Beretta thats not abused can be a guilty pleasure to those with large hands. I had a cheep Vertec I got in the day. For like 3 bills with the 1911 style grip. Should've kept it but I won't go out of my way for one.
Toyed with getting a 92G SD but had other stuff on my plate. That would be a Beretta I would get though
i went from glock to sig to hk back to glock but I just picked up a cheap 92G Used on Gunbroker and MAN ...with the D Spring I am very very impressed. there are a couple more on gunbroker right now btw.
Got a link?
I get the idea that you don’t like to do research on your own. Ok. Follow this link and explore.
http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=92G&Sort=13
Everyone can go on with the discussion without any further interruption from Feline.
i went from glock to sig to hk back to glock but I just picked up a cheap 92G Used on Gunbroker and MAN ...with the D Spring I am very very impressed. there are a couple more on gunbroker right now btw.
Dont get me wrong. Either the SD or the Wilson is on my bucket list. It'd be my only Beretta. 1911 vertec grip was neat but not really a big deal.
I kinda want the Wilson for its round Trigger guard. It looks classy and this would be a purely recreational pistol. Berettas are big for what they are but if you have larger hands then they really are pretty fun.
Thanks for heads up though
everready73
10-25-17, 18:31
Got a link?
PSA had been running them for $450 nib
PSA had been running them for $450 nib
See post 83.
Coal Dragger
10-26-17, 02:00
Lol. The size if a 17-19 round gun with only 15 rounds. It doesn’t even fit in this conversation.
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Despite all that I still EDC a VP-9, I don’t feel under gunned with 16 rounds on board and a spare mag, the pistol conceals just fine in a good holster with a good belt. Is it a bit larger than a G19? Yep. Not so much that I cannot conceal it.
What I do know is that I shoot the VP-9 better than a Gen III or Gen IV G19, particularly at distances past 15 yards. I’m very confident in the VP-9 out to 50 yards and beyond. The VP-9 has a better trigger, in addition mine came with very well regulated night sights; good sights and a good trigger make the pistol easy to shoot well. Plus the gun has been 100% reliable on all magazines with all ammo so far, extraction and ejection are flawless. An added benefit for me, as a reloader, the HK chamber dimensions are easy on brass unlike the sloptastic poorly supported Glock factory chamber.
I ran this pistol in a TAPS class with Pat Mac and captured TD1 “Certificate of Victory” for the pistol portion against some very good shooters. Most of whom were shooting Glocks.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-26-17, 07:30
No question the VP9 is a superb handgun. Trustworthy out of the box with arguably the best trigger in the business.
The VP9 is not "the size of a 17-19 round gun". It's between a G19 and G17 size. So if the Glock is the standard, a VP9 should hold 16 rather than 15. Which is moot. The magazines aren't as crammed as Glock mags. Even when they are brand new it's easy to load them to full capacity without a loaded.
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Here is my take. I understand that more bullets is a good thing. But if you can and WILL carry a gun that holds 15. That you are proficient with and shoot better then a gun that holds 17. Are you not better equipped? Even though you lose 2 rounds. If you shoot the gun noticeably better, then Hell yeah you can get away with losing 2 bullets. The vp9 did not work for me. But if you can shoot it the best and it feels the best. Then no one should question the decision of carrying the damn thing.
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You guys are worried about 15 vs 17. Hahaha. Try being stuck with 10 or less.
I honestly think the 2 round loss between 15 and 17 isn’t worth talking about.
i'm waiting for the first casualty :)
Man, you guys really latched onto that comment.
My fault - again, what I was meaning was that for its' capacity I was expecting something smaller in all dimensions. The VP9 was a much harder gun to conceal (than the G19) with the same capacity. That made it a loser for me. And I shot it no better. And it was more expensive. And harder to find aftermarket support for. So if I sound underwhelmed with it in general, that's because I was.
i'm waiting for the first casualty :)
Yes sir! I'm anxiously waiting...
Man, you guys really latched onto that comment.
My fault - again, what I was meaning was that for its' capacity I was expecting something smaller in all dimensions. The VP9 was a much harder gun to conceal (than the G19) with the same capacity. That made it a loser for me. And I shot it no better. And it was more expensive. And harder to find aftermarket support for. So if I sound underwhelmed with it in general, that's because I was.
People need something to argue about!!!
Good to see you back.
Was just checking into the prices on the 2.0c, looking good. $417 shipped from Grabagun (https://grabagun.com/smith-and-wesson-mp9-m2-0-cmpct-9mm-15-1-4-fs.html).
People need something to argue about!!!
Good to see you back.
Thanks bud
I installed the Apec Tactical Duty/Carry trigger enhancement kit in my M&P 2.0 compact a couple of days ago. The factory trigger is not bad, especially once you get some rounds through it. With the Apex kit installed, it now pretty much equals my CZ P-10c's trigger that has around 1400 rds on it. The trigger reset is just a *little* less audible than the P-10c's trigger, but still has a plenty tactile feel and is audible enough for anyone. The shape and the width of the Apex trigger shoe *for me* is much better than the factory hinged version. The Apex kit not only shortened the take up, but now it is completely and absolutely smooth. The triggers wall and break point have also been moved forward some, I am guessing around 1/16" of an inch or so. M&P triggers usually break farther back than most striker pistols in my experience. I am glad now that I did not wait and get the forward setting sear kit coming out soon, as the duty/carry kit is perfect in everyway, *for me*. *My* 2.0 compact not only has been perfect in the reliability department through 800 rds, but it has very good accuracy, equaling my CZ P-10c and the VP9 I used to own. I out shoot my Gen 5 G19 with my 2.0 compact and P-10C by around 1.500" inches at 25 yds. It also has no BTF which my Gen 5 G19 still occasionally does. *IF* my 2.0 compact pistol continues to perform as it has, which is perfect, in 6 months or so, I will most likely be thinning the herd out some. Other than adding some new sights of my preferance, I like everything about it. I have never been able to say that about a pistol before, and I have owned a bunch of them through the years. So *for me* right now, it is the best 9mm compact pistol I have ever owned, bar none.
https://i.imgur.com/CgfbGZFl.jpg
You guys are worried about 15 vs 17. Hahaha. Try being stuck with 10 or less.
I honestly think the 2 round loss between 15 and 17 isn’t worth talking about.
Agreed. The extra five rounds feels huge.
I installed the Apec Tactical Duty/Carry trigger enhancement kit in my M&P 2.0 compact a couple of days ago. The facory trigger is not bad, especially once you get some rounds through it. With the Apex kit installed, it is now pretty much equals my CZ P-10c's trigger that has around 1400 rds on it. The trigger reset is just a *little* less audible than the P-10c's trigger, but still has a plenty tactile feel and is audible enough for anyone. The shape and the width of the Apex trigger shoe *for me* is much better than the factory hinged version. The Apex kit not only shortened the take up, but now it is completely and absolutely smooth. The triggers wall and break point have also been moved forward some, I am guessing around 1/16" of an inch or so. M&P triggers usually break farther back than most striker pistols in my experience. I am glad now that I did not wait and get the forward setting sear kit coming out soon, as the duty/carry kit is perfect in everyway, *for me*. *My* 2.0 compact not only has been perfect in the reliability department through 800 rds, but it has very good accuracy, equaling my CZ P-10c and the VP9 I used to own. I out shoot my Gen 5 G19 with my 2.0 compact and P-10C by around 1.500" inches at 25 yds. It also has no BTF which my Gen 5 G19 still occasionally does. *IF* my 2.0 compact pistol continues to perform as it has, which is perfect, in 6 months or so, I will most likely be thinning the herd out some. Other than adding some new sights of my preferance, I like everything about it. I have never been able to say that about a pistol before, and I have owned a bunch of them through the years. So *for me* right now, it is the best I have ever owned, bar none.
https://i.imgur.com/CgfbGZFl.jpg
Looks good, thanks for the update. I love the same Apex kit that I have in my FS.
Agreed. The extra five rounds feels huge.
Looks good, thanks for the update. I love the same Apex kit that I have in my FS.
I wish I had a trigger pull weight gauge to see what the trigger breaks at, but it is absolutely perfect for me. Not to heavy and not to light. Just a bit heavier than my P-10c, probably right at 4.5 lbs and no creep. Also using the medium large grip insert, this pistol fits my hand just right and makes the trigger reach just right for me. I have also gotten used to the grip texture and do not plan on toning it down at all, as I carry OWB. IMHO, it has better grip texture than my P-10c and is way better than my Gen 5 G19.
DesertDrifter
10-27-17, 20:50
On the weekends I work at a shooting range and have put rounds downrange with all of the firearms mentioned. My EDC is a standard M&P9 2.0 with the 4.25" barrel. I have installed some Trijicon HD XR's on it, but other than that it is in stock guise. I've put over 2000 rounds through it. The trigger is vastly better than the previous generations although I still hate the shape of the trigger shoe. If and whenever Apex releases the flat faced option for the 2.0, I will be adding one just for that reason. The CZ-P10C is a nice handgun and my cohort switched from a G19 to one. I would say it is one of the best striker fired triggers out there and it shoots well. The G19 Gen 5 is okay. I don't care for the cut out on the front of the magwell and think they would have been better served if they would have placed them on the sides of the grip rather than the front. I also don't feel a flared magwell is necessary on a double stacked magazine. The lack of finger grooves is preferable to me, but I can live with or without them. As for now I will stick with the M&P9 2.0. If the compact had come out first I would have gone that route.48235
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-12-17, 17:38
Well, I have gotten the M&P and the Glock past the 1000 round mark. I have only shot the CZ during timed drills, although that didn't stop it from having the first official malfunction of the test.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4542/38141030596_07321ca476_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/217oKzN)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/217oKzN) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
GLOCK
THE GOOD
1. Continues to function perfectly. NO erratic ejection.
2. My JM custom Kydex IWB holster for it and the Inforce came in. It fits perfectly and came in about 10 days.
3. I have zero issue with the cutout on the front of the mag well. I really don't see the need for a magwell on a double stack, but this one is fine.
4. I haven't cleaned it, at all. Other than being dirty from all the TULA steel
THE BAD
1. The mag falls out more than it is ejected. Not a big deal, but you need to be careful when you are doing reloads, at least in comparison to the MP and CZ.
2. Not sure why they decided to change the universal rail location. I guess someone told them they had to.
3. I picked up a Inforce Compact for it. It appears that the bar was meant for the old Glock universal rail style so I probably shouldn't have gotten the Glock specific model. Either way, it works fine, it just sits a touch forward.
THE UGLY
1. Just the lack of frame beveling at the front of the gun. Other than that it is perfect, especially since I am no fan of forward slide serrations.
M&P
THE GOOD.
1. No jams, malfunctions, etc. Runs perfectly.
2. The grip is fantastic. Compared to the Glock the chance of getting a bad grab on the timer is lower. The shape of the grip just guides your hand into place and the checkering locks it in.
3. Accuracy is equivalent of Glock.
THE BAD
1. I had two failures to lock back on the last round during 666 drills on two different days. This is absolutely user-induced. However, I didn't see these malfunctions with the G19 or CZ. This is due to my not gripping the gun properly after the reload--trying basically to beat the timer. This isn't the gun's fault--but the design may not be as resistant to this error as the CZ and Lock.
The UGLY
I am a little mixed on the 17 round mag adaptor. I noticed they may be causing the plate to come loose.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4530/26420316199_46691f7d86_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GfF2x6)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/GfF2x6) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
CZ
The GOOD.
1.Still consistently the fastest gun on Bill drills. This comes down the the super light trigger and the excellent grip. Even if it runs a .1 slow on some reloads the splits typically catch it right back up.
2. Probably the most accurate of the three. When shooting at steel plates at 100 the CZ is usually the winner. Again, trigger.
3. My JM custom Kydex IWB for it installed with my Surefire XC1. I love JM Custom.
4. Again, all tightness in the ejection button is long gone.
The BAD
FIRST MALFUNCTION!!! OMG, THROW IT IN THE TRASH.
Anyway, while I was doing some timed bill drills, I had a failure to extract. This was with Tula steel, but I have to say it was the first real "jam" of the entire test (approximately 4500 rounds, with the VAST majority being Tula or Wolf steel). I finished out Bills and 6/6/6 drills and didn't see any more malfunctions, but we will see when I reintroduce the CZ to regular shooting.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4524/38371925891_7d96933140_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21sN9Ha)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/21sN9Ha) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
The Ugly.
Nothing really.
CZ P10 2246 rounds fired, 1 malfunctions (Failure to extract/Tula @ ~2150), 1 cleaning at 2000 rounds.
G19 1218 rounds fired, 0 malfunctions, 0 cleanings
M&P 1122 rounds fired, 0 malfunctions, 0 cleanings
Best of the week Bill Drills
CZ (1.37 draw/ 2.62 overall)
M&P (1.39 draw /2.63 overall)
G19 (1.42 draw/2.77 overall)
Best of the week 6/6/6 from concealment drills
MP (1.64 draw/2.59 reload/5.37 overall)
Glock19 (1.5 draw/2.23 reload/4.81 overall)
CZ (1.45 draw/ 2.52 reload/ 4.96 overall)
I have just gotten 3k more TULA steel ammo. This stuff works great. And at $149 per 1k it is hard to beat. Still, it is nasty!
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4584/37659396444_99f23e51aa_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZnQfwG)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/ZnQfwG) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
My buddy brought out his P01. It had a 15 round mag so I did some comparison pics. That gun has a fantastic DA pull. People always complain that no one ever put out a G19 sized gun. Other than the P01, USP compact, P2000, Cz-75 compact and about 50 other guns they are right. This gun is great. However, I think the M&P is the king of the sight radius.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4545/24501514658_283af66edc_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Dk7EFU)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/Dk7EFU) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4538/37658000954_45945f92e7_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZnH6Gw)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/ZnH6Gw) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4522/37658000934_d1d488b08d_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZnH6Gb)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/ZnH6Gb) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4563/38341656692_03d1e9d3fe_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21q81Jq)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/21q81Jq) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4536/38341677632_a0ab91791e_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21q87Xs)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/21q87Xs) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
P-10c looks huge compared to the rest!!!! Grip looks much longer than the glock or smith. Looks like it should hold 17.
Great comparison!
I would just ditch the 17 mag adapter on the M&P. It's the only part of the overall package that I think is poorly designed. They don't latch on and just float around, I had some in my range bag and they would work themselves up the mag easily. If carried with the mag upside down they slide down. They aren't needed, just let the 17 rounder stick out the bottom like a G17 mag in a G19.
Here is a link to a review of the M&P 2.0 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhPk1kjKLPM&t=1s
Hopefully my quest for the best all around 9mm compact pistols has ended. I really like my two Gen 5 G19's but I also like my two M&P 2.0 compacts. Both great pistols, but I do shoot the 2.0 compacts a little better. Maybe its the triggers, I don't know. Also, the Apex trigger breaks approx .080" of an inch farther forward than the factory trigger and along with the included grip inserts , you can pretty much get the perfect trigger reach and grip feel for you. Just one man's experience of course. I don't use or need any adapters when using the full size or extended mags, just let them hang out.
https://i.imgur.com/CscLuMbl.jpg
Extra mags are here:
http://www.furtography.com/mke/FullSizeRendermp.jpg
Extra mags are here:
http://www.furtography.com/mke/FullSizeRendermp.jpg
Thanks for the heads up on these, mine came today also.
Man...while I was huge fan of the M&P series, I swore them off and went to Glock due to the difficulty in getting two that shot the same ammo equally well. Looks like this has changed. With the Compact 2.0 out, I may be tempted to switch rather than go to the Gen5 Glocks. While I i love everything the Gen5 Glock represents, sometimes my wrists don't appreciate the grip angle. Seriously hoping the 2.0 series pans out.
Man...while I was huge fan of the M&P series, I swore them off and went to Glock due to the difficulty in getting two that shot the same ammo equally well. Looks like this has changed. With the Compact 2.0 out, I may be tempted to switch rather than go to the Gen5 Glocks. While I i love everything the Gen5 Glock represents, sometimes my wrists don't appreciate the grip angle. Seriously hoping the 2.0 series pans out.
Curious, why switch if your current Glocks are doing fine? Is it desire to just have the latest?
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Curious, why switch if your current Glocks are doing fine? Is it desire to just have the latest?
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Short version: Grip angle.
Long version: I like the Glock as a functional, no frills, dead reliable, accurate pistol. I don't care for the grip shape, but I can usually live with it. The issue is that sometimes my wrists get aggravated with the grip angle, and I'm down to one full size Glock due to a hard year. I've looked at the P320 and the VP9, but haven't been persuaded it's worth the change over the G19. The G19 sized 2.0 might be worth pursuing over a second G19, in my specific case. The occasional wrist issues may make me a prime candidate for a G19 grip reduction, but for the price of the work I can probably try the 2.0 and sell it if needed.
P-10c looks huge compared to the rest!!!! Grip looks much longer than the glock or smith. Looks like it should hold 17.Probably just the angle. Not a big differencehttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171114/27189ba9ce1cd0dbf8cdbb6858c83b0b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171114/c4d0cfcb8d0146a94820c87b0e9a1ad4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171114/da66239c8db5749d43230a3edb99a3d8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171114/7619971ad24b7f8aa09d73fa5eef66bb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171114/38448d35c7b6d3f504dc39b12086a37b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171114/44ca472d5d6da8a719066fd7b29fb19c.jpg
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I put the P10c next to a 19 and a 17 and the CZ was right at the same size as the 17. CZ is nice but anything but "compact".
From the length and height specs off Glock and CZ's websites the Glock 17 is .650" thousands of an inch longer overall and .230" thousands of an inch taller overall than the P-10c.
I put the P10c next to a 19 and a 17 and the CZ was right at the same size as the 17. CZ is nice but anything but "compact".
It's like the rest of the Compacts, not G19 Compact. ;)
KITTEN_FRENZY
11-15-17, 18:43
I wish I had a trigger pull weight gauge to see what the trigger breaks at, but it is absolutely perfect for me. Not to heavy and not to light. Just a bit heavier than my P-10c, probably right at 4.5 lbs and no creep. Also using the medium large grip insert, this pistol fits my hand just right and makes the trigger reach just right for me. I have also gotten used to the grip texture and do not plan on toning it down at all, as I carry OWB. IMHO, it has better grip texture than my P-10c and is way better than my Gen 5 G19.
Mine weighed 4.5lb with everything in the kit + the stock trigger return spring.
https://i.imgur.com/pfoo1SH.jpg
It's strange how Glock people automatically think all guns have to conform to Glock dimensions and if they don't somehow they are rejected.
There are guns smaller than the Glock 19 and larger so who really cares what the Glock 19 is.
titsonritz
11-16-17, 21:10
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4530/26420316199_46691f7d86_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GfF2x6)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/GfF2x6) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
That's some long 9mm. :jester:
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-17-17, 17:32
.38s are 9mm for men
.38s are 9mm for men
https://media1.tenor.com/images/ac515c40433ff4c7c324674098dc2363/tenor.gif
You guys are worried about 15 vs 17. Hahaha. Try being stuck with 10 or less.
I honestly think the 2 round loss between 15 and 17 isn’t worth talking about.
Honestly I never really consider capacity. I carry 1911's sometimes and I never think, oh no I only have 8 rounds. I swear some people sit around ad day dream up these rambo type scenarios, blasting away at bad guys as they come out of the wood work. If I run out of ammo, I carry a spare magazine, if I run out again I either should learn to me bore accurate or I should have had a rifle.
Yeah, everyone makes the capacity vs concealment decision when choosing a pistol. The old timer with a wheel gun says " six are plenty for me " thinking the guy with the hi-cap 9mm pistol can't miss fast enough. There is no penality for having extra rounds in your gun or mags at your side, so if given the choice, I prefer to err on the side of having enough rather than maybe having to little ammo.
hopetonbrown
11-18-17, 00:20
More bullets in gun = more time in fight.
Seeing as most people will be pressing the trigger as fast as they can, and the average person can probably press the trigger 4 times a second, a 1911 in 45 Auto is a 2.25 second gun.
A Glock 19 is a 4 second gun.
What's the downside to having more solutions to a problem?
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The Dumb Gun Collector
11-19-17, 18:43
CZ P10 2246 rounds fired, 1 malfunctions (Failure to extract/Tula @ ~2150), 1 cleaning at 2000 rounds.
G19 1468 rounds fired, ~1 malfunction (Premature lock back, possibly user induced), 0 cleanings
M&P 1372 rounds fired, 0 malfunctions, 0 cleanings
I actually took it pretty easy this week. I got a cold Friday night so I just sat in bed all Saturday and decided to shoot today, but I left my steel, the CZ and most of my accessories at home and just blasted and had a good old time. I didn’t really do any comparison shooting, just enjoyed my day. I blasted 500 rounds through the CZ and the SW on Friday and today. Nothing interesting except this..
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4558/24658809858_1ac6693429_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Dz1R57)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/Dz1R57) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
Basically, I was shooting three chucks of steel in the dirt at 50 yards. I felt the gun lock back and went for a reload when I noticed there was still a round in the mag. My guess is I rode the gun too high and pushed the slide release lever up too hard. This is the first time I have ever had this malfunction in any gun (that I can recall). There were three rounds left in the mag. I am going to put it down as a possible malfunction. I may remove it if it never happens again or it happens again and it is clearly my fault. Unfortunately it happened right as I was about to finished so I wasn’t able to shoot but about 20 more rounds after. I did notice a couple of iffy reloads with the G19 (fumbled inserts), but I am basically chalking them up to my half sick state.
I am hoping that all three guns will hit the 2000 round mark by Monday since I have some extra days off this week.
I did take some pictures of the Glock 19, CZ P10 and then Glock 17 to see the relative height of the guns.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4521/38499571292_2ac0f6f85e_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21E5neW)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/21E5neW) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4573/38475504646_0b0e8f3531_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21BX24L)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/21BX24L) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
Thanks for doing these threads- very interesting.
I had the same issue with the glock (bought used and came with factory extended slide release).
I switched to a standard release and it hasn’t happened since. Never had it happen with the m&p either.
That said, looks like your running a stock release, so I’m curious to see how it shakes out.
I keep clicking this thread hoping to hear about a gun funeral.
Just took my m&p 2.0 5 inch out today for the first time.
It'd accurate, but I was hitting low consistently. Tested against my vp9 and I was low with the m&p every time.
That grip does chew up dry hands after a hundred or so round though. Other than that, I do like it. But don't love it. Makes me want hk to make a vp9L to be honest.
My 2.0 Compact keeps chugging along, over 2,000 rounds now with 0 issues
Yesterday, while putting away a CZ P10C and a SW MP 2.0 Compact after a range trip, I noticed that the magazines for the CZ fit reasonably well into the MP and feed dummy rounds without any problems.
A trip to the range today demonstrated that the CZ mags function in the MP 2.0 Compact. I shot about 350 rounds through the MP using the CZ mags. The SW MP 2.0 Compact magazines do not fit the CZ P10C and the longer full size MP mags do not fit properly into the CZ.
I currently own and shoot all three of the pistols in question and for myself would rate them as follows:
#1 CZ P10C
With the large backstrap and blacked-out rear sight dots, the pistol points and shoots best for me. It has terrific mechanical accuracy and a really good trigger. I get the best split times and accuracy from this pistol of the three. At longer ranges (20+ yards) the factory sights aren't the most precise and I plan to upgrade to Dawson Precision sights in the future.
#2 SW MP 2.0 Compact
With the ML backstrap and blacked-out rear sight dots this pistol shoots well for me and has good mechanical accuracy. The trigger has a distinct and consistent break point without the mushy feel of earlier models. The reset is longish but discernible; although, I occasionally out run the reset or fail to fully let off the trigger to allow reset when shooting quickly. This trigger is a big improvement over past MP triggers. The sights are slightly nicer than the CZ having a better rear notch.
#3 Glock 19 Gen5
With medium backstrap and factory plastic sights, it is functional and still shoots like a Glock, only better. It has possibly the best Glock factory trigger I've experienced so far and noticeably better accuracy than older generations I've shot. The cut out in the front of the grip is sometimes annoying and I plan to get the Pearce floor plates designed to fill the cut out. Ameriglo sights of some type are also planned. The Gen4 19 finger grooves fit my hand and I think allow a little better hold than on the Gen5 but the Gen5 shoots better and has more consistent ejection.
There's a thread on P&S about observed issues with many late model 2.0s, primarily recoil spring breaking...
There's a thread on P&S about observed issues with many late model 2.0s, primarily recoil spring breaking...P&S?
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hopetonbrown
11-25-17, 17:25
P&S?
Sent from my XT1650 using TapatalkPrimary & Secondary
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Anyone else get BTF with their M&P 2.0?
Happened 3 times on me at the range the other day. It was more like brass on top of head.
BTF ? What is that: Brass To Face.
No I have never had my M&P 2.0 throw brass that hits me. And have been shooting it weekly since April.
Now a Kahr CW 45 and 1911 flip brass at me whenever I shoot them.
No BTF or my head with my two 2.0c's or my two Gen 5 G19's. They all have been running fine with no issues at all.
Brass to forehead or face is caused by improperly adjusted extractor.
Anyone else get BTF with their M&P 2.0?
Happened 3 times on me at the range the other day. It was more like brass on top of head.
Nope, over 2,00 rounds not once
Brass to forehead or face is caused by improperly adjusted extractor.
Unless it's a Glock then it's caused by poor grip. :lol:
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-26-17, 16:43
CZ P10 2246 rounds fired, 1 malfunctions (Failure to extract/Tula @ ~2150), 1 cleaning at 2000 rounds.
G19 1743 rounds fired, ~2 malfunction2(Premature lock back, case stuck in chamber), 1 BTF 0 cleanings
M&P 1672 rounds fired, 0 malfunctions, 0 cleanings
Well, I had a fun holiday with three trips to the range. My plan was to have the G19 and M&P up to 2000 but I got sidetracked. Maybe next week.
Malfunction watch.
Well, I got another hiccup from the G19. Basically a case got stuck in the chamber. My guess is that it did not make it all the way and the striker hit it out of battery (hard to say). Either way, the round didn’t extract and I had to use the edge of the table to open the slide. Because I am a dumbass, I dropped it back in the pipe and it promptly locked up again. Here is the thing, I dropped it in the M&P and it still went off. Not sayting this means anything, just a data point. Note, this is the same crappy TULA ammo I always use. But it hasn’t choked the CZ, the M&P my Beretta 92 or my P2000.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4525/37777091055_eee94e231c_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Zyet38)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/Zyet38) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
The M&P ran fine. I have developed a tendency to shoot to the left with the M&P, but that is quickly remedied by adding a little trigger finger. Maybe I will swap to the smaller grip. Or not!
I brought out my old P2000 (LEM) and did some comparison shooting. It has been a while since I shot it but I wanted to shoot something with a different style of trigger. The P2000 FELT like it kicked harder. Then I did some drills with the G19 back to back and, humorously, each gun was slightly faster than the other for the first 6 draws I timed. Basically, whatever you are most familiar with will always FEEL like it has a better recoil impulse. I always liked the P2000 because it was G19 sized 13+1 with a little bit of extra safety in the trigger and well-sorted controls (true ambi, fully loaded mags seat and eject without issue, no BTF, etc). H&K really should update this gun.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4549/38632298862_b688805610_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21RNCwj)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/21RNCwj) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
Also, I had my first BTF with the Glock. 1 out 1700 rounds doesn’t bother me.
ALSO NOTE, I swear I had just noticed that the CZ mag fit in the S&W too! No lie! I ran three rounds through the M&P and it fired and locked back the slide. Useless data point!
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4586/26888605409_eae8ea0ef1_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GY48AZ)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/GY48AZ) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
Also got to play with a friends G30s. I had one of these beasts a few years ago and I miss it. 9+1 (realistically without using a pneumatic press to seat the mag) .45 in a sub G19 sized package is something to consider!
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4522/38632298762_82e5056dff_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21RNCuA)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/21RNCuA) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
Unless it's a Glock then it's caused by poor grip. :lol:
Nope. If it's a glock, then it's caused by the ammo. LOL
While they are seldom needed, hopefully soon we will be able to get some extra factory OEM spare parts ( striker assy's, RSA's, trigger springs, etc.) for both pistols. I think at this point in time there are plenty of reliable, durable and accurate enough top tier 9mm pistols, whether they be striker fired or DA/SA types to choose from, and the decisions you make tactically with what is between your ears will save your ass way before which brand of pistol is in your hand.
Anyone here with a P10c having issues with it not locking back on an empty mag? I've got about 750 rounds of 115/124gr federal range ammo through it and its not locking back at least 30% of the time. Death grip, light grip, one hand, light attached or not.. doesn't matter. Happens on all 4 of my mags too. Getting frustrated as it's not totally repeatable.
Hasn't happened with the small amount of GD 124+p I've run through it yet though. Not sure if it's the slide not getting full travel, mag springs (four of them?), or the slide catch itself. Any insight is highly appreciated.
Thanks!
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maro.d
I am going to guess that you have larger hands and/or are used to a very high thumbs-forward-ride -the-slide grip. The Slide catch on the CZ is a little different from most pistols in that it doesn't engage the slide using notches cut into the slide but it catches the slide internallly. This seems to require the lever to move a little more downward to release the slide and a little more upward to catch the slide than ont other pistols.
When shooting, even unoticable contact witht the slide catch by the firing-hand thumb can prevent the slide from locking. I really notice this when switcing between the CZ P10C and a Glock 19 during the same range session.
Try consiously moving your thumb a little bit away from the slide. I suspect the with the GD 124+p the gun shakes just enough more during shooting to kind of move your thumb away from the slide.
This is my guess and I hope it helps.
Anyone here with a P10c having issues with it not locking back on an empty mag? I've got about 750 rounds of 115/124gr federal range ammo through it and its not locking back at least 30% of the time. Death grip, light grip, one hand, light attached or not.. doesn't matter. Happens on all 4 of my mags too. Getting frustrated as it's not totally repeatable.
Hasn't happened with the small amount of GD 124+p I've run through it yet though. Not sure if it's the slide not getting full travel, mag springs (four of them?), or the slide catch itself. Any insight is highly appreciated.
Thanks!
Sent from my iPad using TapatalkYes and I'm pretty sure it's me. It happens occasionally. Maybe 5% - 10% of the time. When I make a conscious effort not to keep my thumbs close to the slide release then everything works fine. I have the same issue with HK ambi slide releases
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Thanks for the replies, good to know it’s probably user error and not the gun. Will make an effort to pay attention to where my thumbs are at next time I shoot it.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-02-17, 08:41
The trigger on my Glock is, inexplicably, getting worse. I went ahead and detail stripped and cleaned it, but that doesn’t seem to have helped at all. There is some sort of binding feeling in the trigger. At first I thought I might be imagining the new but my gen 5 trigger now feels significantly worse than my old gen 3 and the m&p.
Update: here is a short video https://youtu.be/Xnuob8Q-tRM
Coal Dragger
12-02-17, 12:06
Well that sucks. I’m not a Glock fan, but I hate to see equipment failures or issues so early with what is supposed to be quality equipment.
Looks like the CZ, or M&P are on the way to victory here.
The trigger on my Glock is, inexplicably, getting worse. I went ahead and detail stripped and cleaned it, but that doesn’t seem to have helped at all. There is some sort of binding feeling in the trigger. At first I thought I might be imagining the new but my gen 5 trigger now feels significantly worse than my old gen 3 and the m&p.
Update: here is a short video https://youtu.be/Xnuob8Q-tRM
I believe my Gen 5 G19 has had the same issue a few times. It is like the trigger is binding somewhere and the pull gets really heavy. I took mine apart and took the trigger bar assembly out, got a real small screwdriver and gently made sure the new style trigger spring assembly was not out of position or binding anywhere, reassembled everything making sure the the trigger bar cruciform went under the trigger spring retainer or whatever it is called and the problem went away. If that doesn't correct it check your striker safety plunger/ spring for smooth operation.
The trigger on my Glock is, inexplicably, getting worse. I went ahead and detail stripped and cleaned it, but that doesn’t seem to have helped at all. There is some sort of binding feeling in the trigger. At first I thought I might be imagining the new but my gen 5 trigger now feels significantly worse than my old gen 3 and the m&p.
May not be a death but I'm calling that a TKO.
LOL.
My P10c is a first class gun, accurate, smooth shooting, well made......I feel the same about my P07,,,P320,,, P01,,,TP9 SFX and many others....
hopetonbrown
12-02-17, 22:54
My P10c is a first class gun, accurate, smooth shooting, well made......I feel the same about my P07,,,P320,,, P01,,,TP9 SFX and many others....What does "smooth shooting" mean, and isn't every modern handgun from a major manufacturer "accurate"?
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My P10c is a first class gun, accurate, smooth shooting, well made......I feel the same about my P07,,,P320,,, P01,,,TP9 SFX and many others....
My p10 was a steaming pile....
Anyone else get BTF with their M&P 2.0?
Happened 3 times on me at the range the other day. It was more like brass on top of head.
Not with my M&P 2.0 compact yet. Or any other handgun in decades of shooting handguns that I can remember with only two exceptions. And I would remember getting hit in the face with hot empties if it happened very often.
The only guns that ever gave me brass to face was two Gen 4 Glock 19s that I bought several months apart in 2012. Both gave me severe BTF from the first magazine in each. As in 6-8 hot empties in the face out of each magazine. Brand, bullet type or power level of the ammunition made no difference except that +P hit me a little harder in the face. I would come home from the range after shooting these two guns with black marks all over my face.
I finally installed an Apex extractor kit in each. It was an instant fix and neither has since hit me BTF in over 2K rounds through each. They work properly just like my other Glocks have over the years.
Last month at the gun shop I looked at both the Gen5 Glock 19 and the M&P 2.0 side by side. I liked the no finger grooves of the G19 as well as the trigger. But, it is new and I was leery of possible BTF in this model like the well reported problems with the Gen4 19s. If there are no reports of BTF issues with the Gen5 by this time next year I'll probably jump in and buy one.
I bought the M&P 2.0 compact and like it very much so far. As far as BTF in the M&P goes, I really don't expect any. But if it or any other future gun gives me that behavior it will be gone in a hurry. Not going to put the time, effort and frustration into another one like I did with those two Glocks.
The trigger on my Glock is, inexplicably, getting worse. I went ahead and detail stripped and cleaned it, but that doesn’t seem to have helped at all. There is some sort of binding feeling in the trigger. At first I thought I might be imagining the new but my gen 5 trigger now feels significantly worse than my old gen 3 and the m&p.
Update: here is a short video https://youtu.be/Xnuob8Q-tRM
Greg, curious if you have figured out the trigger issue yet ?
Really good thread great info here.
Ed
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-10-17, 20:56
CZ P10 2246 rounds: 1 malfunction (failure to extract @2150. 1 Cleaning at 2000 rounds
Glock 19 1853 rounds (1 premature lockback, case stuck in chamber, 1 BTF, trigger bar finish is flaking and trigger is now approaching makarov quality)
M&P 2.0 Compact 2272 0 malfunctions, cleaned at 2272.
I have taken the Glock out of rotation until I can get it fixed. Basically, the trigger bar plating looks like it is flaking off and degrading the trigger pull.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4537/27195191219_82d9c4cd8b_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Hr9sTe)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/Hr9sTe) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
Technically I could keep going but I don't really feel like wasting ammo shooting a gun with a increasingly crappy trigger. I MAY just order an APEX trigger since I enjoy shooting the gun and the decomposing trigger is really my only pet peeve. Still, this is a pretty lame performance by Glock in the QC department. Apparently some folks over at the Pistol Forum have seen similar issues in the 43 which shares the general trigger setup. But I am no Glock guru so maybe it is something else.
I took the M&P out today and put another few hundred rounds of sweet, sweet Tula through it. It continues to run without drama. So far I have to say the M&P is probably the "winner." It basically does everything a combat autoloader is supposed to do: it is reliable, shoots straight, has fantastic ergonomics and everything it does it does in a straightforward manner (ejects mags easily and forcefully, kicks brass to the right, etc). Great gun. Definity my recommended all around 9mm right now (although that CZ trigger! so good).
I took my HK45C out and shot it a bit. I forgot how much fun this gun is. Nine shots of 45 in what amounts to the size of a Glock 19 after a little bit of holiday eating. And, of course, it just runs like crazy and shoots straight. This is probably the gun I should be carrying: Compactish, accurate, and shoots 230 grain pills of FREEDOM!
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4586/25100870978_06a2f7b8b2_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Ef5wry)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/Ef5wry) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4688/38972007621_447b9489aa.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22nPJ6T)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/22nPJ6T) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
So what do y'all think? Kick the Glock out? Send it back? Just get an Apex?
Can't help you on the Glock trigger. All my Glocks are Gen 3.
Your experience with the M&P 2.0C mirrors my own. I have well over 2,000 on a couple of them with zero malfunctions of any kind. I really like them.
I'd send it back if for nothing else but to see what the problem is
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I vote Apex for the Glock. Then I vote Apex for the M&P.
Since I consider the P10c as good as it's going to get, I'd be interested in how the other two do with Apex carry components.
I'd send it back if for nothing else but to see what the problem is
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My vote too. I would be too curious to find out what the issue was. And then I would do the Apex after getting it back.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-11-17, 21:03
It looks like Glock May want me to ship it to them. Apex trigger makes more sense unless I wait up until I am around Smyrna. I’ll call them and see tomorrow.
I'm the guy on P-F that had the plating issue on the 43. My training 19 Gen5 did the same thing at the same round count (~4100).
Glock would not pay shipping, so I sent the parts to Robar for NP3.
Cool that the M&P beat Glock and CZ. I transitioned from Sig TDA to Glock about the time the 2.0 came out. I went Glock because the size of the 19 is better for me and the 43 goes well with it. I started with a 43 and a Gen4 19 and never could get it (the 19) to run right, traded it off for the Gen5 and was super happy with it for 2 1/2 months until the trigger went South.
If there had been an M&P 2.0C and Shield 2.0 last year I wouldn't own a Glock right now.
Up until the Gen 5 Glocks, BTF was fairly common and pretty much, the luck of the draw. I highly doubt the trigger bar finish flaking issues some people are having with their Gen 5 Glocks will be anything close to that, and we will see. I suspect someone doing the process of prepping/degreasing the trigger bars before the final finish operation screwed up. How many got to assembly, who knows. I look at it like, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, just get a properly finished trigger bar and keep shooting. For a little bit added to the price of the guns, I which they would have went with the internal components finish they are using on the FBI pistols.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-11-17, 23:42
I will say, other than the trigger weirdness I was happy with the gun. It had 1btf in 1800+ which could happen with any gun.
Beat Trash
12-12-17, 08:21
It looks like Glock May want me to ship it to them. Apex trigger makes more sense unless I wait up until I am around Smyrna. I’ll call them and see tomorrow.
I'm sitting on a Glock 19.5 with an extremely low round count that I really like so far. But the reports of plating on the trigger bar flaking off has me concerned.
Let us know what Glock has to say please.
This is nothing new in opinion. Happens with previous generations of Glocks, as the nickel plating wears with high round count. Solutions are replacement of trigger bar or a good polish job.
This is nothing new in opinion. Happens with previous generations of Glocks, as the nickel plating wears with high round count. Solutions are replacement of trigger bar or a good polish job.
Agreed, nothing new about this, it has been happening on some trigger bars for years. Definitely not something overly worrisome. I have had it happen, with no real pattern. Some have happened quickly, some with high round counts, and some not at all. Only had one get heavier.
Most of the time, I feel the trigger getting gritty, different from just getting dirty. Check the bar during detail strip, bar flakes, replace and carry on, $17 bucks or so and your on your way. The problem is usually progressive, and won't cause an intimidate failure.
TXPO
Get a NP3 coated bar. Much harder than nickel.
Robar’s NP3 finish is an electroless nickel-based finish for steel, stainless steel and aluminum alloys that co-deposits sub-micron particles of PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene), otherwise known as Teflon™, with electroless nickel.
Yes and they heat treat and it has same hardness as chromium. So harder than nickel plate alone.
For those looking to pick up a few extra spare parts for your Gen 5 Glocks, MGW currently has complete Glock Gen 5 striker assemblies in stock , the Gen 5 trigger bars sold out in 30 minutes :
https://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/39327
3ACR_Scout
12-14-17, 22:11
Agreed, nothing new about this, it has been happening on some trigger bars for years. Definitely not something overly worrisome. I have had it happen, with no real pattern. Some have happened quickly, some with high round counts, and some not at all. Only had one get heavier.
Here’s my personal example - a G43 that had about 1,500 rounds through it when I first noticed the flaking:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/NRRs8p1cxy5xVuoDviTC0rcS890L-Z-1G9RIwyELhTm2qRfFPsd82NOLgstihhkoJAuASuWFyOr3A7hmqQ=w1024-h768
I polished the trigger bar with Mother’s and a Dremel buffing wheel, and the flaking showed up a few weeks later. Glock told me that it wouldn’t affect performance, but that I could send the pistol back to be inspected if I wanted to. I declined the offer, as I had already replaced it with a new trigger bar and smooth trigger shoe.
Am I the only one who finds it odd that you guys are accepting the flaking internal finish as "OK" on a gun that has less than 2k rounds through it?
This is like your headliner in your car drooping after 10k miles. Unacceptable.
This is 2017. we have a ton of options for polymer guns under $500. Glock saying "Well, it shouldn't affect performance..." that's just them saying "the internals are made of a cheaper material than in the past and this is a result of that."
I am surprised to hear about the flaking also, I thought the trigger bar was just stainless! That pic of the flaking looks pretty awful. I realize it’s a what $12 or $15 fix maybe to replace it? It’s a big goof on glocks part obviously something went wrong just wish they would do a little more. I guess sending a new trigger bar to install yourself might be too much of a liability for them?
Are the other gen glocks played too?
Ed
Yes and they heat treat and it has same hardness as chromium. So harder than nickel plate alone.
Heat treated industrial nickel plate goes up to 64 for hardness(overlapping the hardness range for hard chrome which is 63-68.). Np3 can go from 68-70 heat treated.
NiB is over 70.
Here’s my personal example - a G43 that had about 1,500 rounds through it when I first noticed the flaking:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/NRRs8p1cxy5xVuoDviTC0rcS890L-Z-1G9RIwyELhTm2qRfFPsd82NOLgstihhkoJAuASuWFyOr3A7hmqQ=w1024-h768
I polished the trigger bar with Mother’s and a Dremel buffing wheel, and the flaking showed up a few weeks later. Glock told me that it wouldn’t affect performance, but that I could send the pistol back to be inspected if I wanted to. I declined the offer, as I had already replaced it with a new trigger bar and smooth trigger shoe.
That’s bullshit.
Why is it plated if it doesn’t affect performance?
It’s a complete failure of the part, as purchased and they need to make it right.
I wonder how much money Glocked saved by cheaping out on this part...
This is kinda sad.
I had multiple Gen 4s that had flaky firing pin blocks. Guess they expanded that ‘quality’ manufacturing to other parts.
Am I the only one who thinks the slide release on the MP2.0 is difficult to manipulate without moving your firing grip?
Does anyone make extended controls ?
Official Kremlin Transmission
Am I the only one who thinks the slide release on the MP2.0 is difficult to manipulate without moving your firing grip?
Does anyone make extended controls ?
Official Kremlin Transmission
The M&P reviewer in this vid review apparently doesn't have an issue with it , but he mentioned he has large hands ( around the 12:10 mark in the review). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhPk1kjKLPM&t=3s
On my *new* 2.0c I can not drop the slide without changing my grip, and even then it is hard to do. I am pretty sure once used and broken in some it will get easier. You can also clip a few coils off the spring that is under the detent that is in front of the slide release, which will make it easier to release and drop the slide. Shortening the spring will also increase the chance of the slide auto forwarding with a hard mag insertion, so go a little at a time unless you don't mind it auto forwarding.
I’m a lefty and I cannot for the life of me on any of the 2.0’s release the slide without considerable effort using the right side slide release.
Am I the only one who thinks the slide release on the MP2.0 is difficult to manipulate without moving your firing grip?
Does anyone make extended controls ?
Official Kremlin Transmission
I’m a lefty and I cannot for the life of me on any of the 2.0’s release the slide without considerable effort using the right side slide release.
I had this same issue with my M&P 45 Midsize. It was really difficult to manipulate the slide release. Over time it eased up quite a bit.
I have the same issue as a lefty. What I've seen is the issue on most pistols, not necessarily the m&p 2.0, is the slide catch by default *catches* on the left side of the frame. Yet the right side slide lever is just attached to the right side since there is no *catch* on the right side of the gun. So if there's any flex across the slide release it's harder to release from the right side. I've seen this on the FN 509. Most get better with a little work.
The CZ P-10C is a little different altogether. It's a fully ambi slide catch/release in that it catches all across the slide, not just on one side. The downside is the release is a little stiff but after a few mags mine has smoothed out a lot.
3ACR_Scout
12-15-17, 16:17
It’s a big goof on glocks part obviously something went wrong just wish they would do a little more. I guess sending a new trigger bar to install yourself might be too much of a liability for them?
My understanding is that Glock (and I’m sure other manufacturers) consider replacing the trigger / bar an armorer-level task, so they won’t send you the trigger assembly to do it yourself. I didn’t actually ask them, but I figured they wouldn’t send it to me when they suggested I send the whole pistol in to them.
That’s bullshit.
Why is it plated if it doesn’t affect performance?
It’s a complete failure of the part, as purchased and they need to make it right.
It’s totally unacceptable that this happens at such a low round count. However, looking at the exposed metal, I suspect that the coating’s main function is corrosion resistance. It still shines up fine when I clean it, and I didn’t notice any additional damage, pitting, or anything else on it after putting more rounds through it. I had already purchased a second trigger assembly to attempt to swap the serated trigger out for smooth one (taken off a G42 trigger bar). When that worked out, I swapped the assemblies out and put the original one in the spare parts box. I don’t like it, I’d like to see Glock fix it, but I’d still use the original “flaked” one if I had to.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-15-17, 19:42
Am I the only one who thinks the slide release on the MP2.0 is difficult to manipulate without moving your firing grip?
Does anyone make extended controls ?
I do not. However, I used to think that I had small hands but I measured them and apparently I have exactly average size hands— which means the average size guns tend to be perfect for me.
I have the same issue as a lefty. What I've seen is the issue on most pistols, not necessarily the m&p 2.0, is the slide catch by default *catches* on the left side of the frame. Yet the right side slide lever is just attached to the right side since there is no *catch* on the right side of the gun. So if there's any flex across the slide release it's harder to release from the right side. I've seen this on the FN 509. Most get better with a little work.
The CZ P-10C is a little different altogether. It's a fully ambi slide catch/release in that it catches all across the slide, not just on one side. The downside is the release is a little stiff but after a few mags mine has smoothed out a lot.
Another downside is that it auto forwards with very little force....
Another downside is that it auto forwards with very little force....
I've never understood that shit. How often are you inserting a loaded mag but not sending the slide forward?
I've never understood that shit. How often are you inserting a loaded mag but not sending the slide forward?
The problem, ime is when it auto forwards before the mag is seated, resulting in a closed slide on an empty chamber.
It’s always a risk imo when it’s not controlled by the release. That said, the m&p1.0 had a reputation and mine never auto forward(unless I really tried), but I don’t slam mags as hard as possible either.
My understanding is that Glock (and I’m sure other manufacturers) consider replacing the trigger / bar an armorer-level task, so they won’t send you the trigger assembly to do it yourself. I didn’t actually ask them, but I figured they wouldn’t send it to me when they suggested I send the whole pistol in to them.
It’s totally unacceptable that this happens at such a low round count. However, looking at the exposed metal, I suspect that the coating’s main function is corrosion resistance. It still shines up fine when I clean it, and I didn’t notice any additional damage, pitting, or anything else on it after putting more rounds through it. I had already purchased a second trigger assembly to attempt to swap the serated trigger out for smooth one (taken off a G42 trigger bar). When that worked out, I swapped the assemblies out and put the original one in the spare parts box. I don’t like it, I’d like to see Glock fix it, but I’d still use the original “flaked” one if I had to.
It’s unacceptable at any round count. If a plating flakes or peels, outside of decorative coatings exposed to corrosives, it’s a failure. The plater failed to produce a satisfactory product. I wouldn’t expect Glock to catch it. I do expect them to, working with the plater, determine the scope of the problem and resolve the issue. Perhaps send replacement parts to those affected. It would do the company perception well.
Edit- adhesion issues are a platers worst nightmares. It’s a result of either complete breakdown of process controls, or complete lack of understanding of what you are trying to do - the first being preferred.
The problem, ime is when it auto forwards before the mag is seated, resulting in a closed slide on an empty chamber.
It’s always a risk imo when it’s not controlled by the release. That said, the m&p1.0 had a reputation and mine never auto forward(unless I really tried), but I don’t slam mags as hard as possible either.
I didn’t know that was a thing. Both my 1911 and M&P1.0 will do it occasionally, but I’ve never had it happen without the mag being fully seated.
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I was talking to the guy at Robar the other day and he doesn't think Glock is plating the metal parts. Said it's some kind of spray on process. I don't know anything about it.
I'm not sure the flaking finish on mine is the sole, or any cause of the trigger feel. I scraped the loose plating off and polished the end of the trigger bar and the trigger is still horrible, to put it nicely. I detail stripped the whole thing, no burrs, channel liner is fine, FPS moves freely and easily, nothing I see that would cause such a catchy, notchy feeling trigger. If I grease the interface between the right side slide stop and the trigger bar it gets better, but only for a dozen pulls or so.
I hope the Robar makes it nice as it was new or a little better, and it stays that way. These guns make my old DA/SA P2000 trigger nice by comparison.
MadAngler1
12-18-17, 21:51
I’ve been tracking this thread for awhile. Within the last six months, I’ve purchased a CZ P10c, HK VP9 tactical and a Gen 5 Glock 19. I usually shoot just Gen 3 Glocks (17/19) and my 1911s for steel matches and IDPA.
Between the CZ P10c and Gen 5 Glock, I still prefer the Glock 19. The size is slightly more compact for conceal carry and the P10 didn’t really do anything for me better than the Glock. The P10 is closer to a XDM in my opinion than the Glock in terms of feel, the trigger and how it handles. I’m surprised more people haven’t made that comparison.
As for the VP9 tactical, it shoots like a dream, but those Youtube videos showing the gun choke on field dust worry me. My HK P30 simply rocks, and ideally, I would use that for a suppressor host. I may still keep the VP9 as a gamer gun at matches, but I still shoot my Glocks well. Time will tell if I keep it.
Regardless, the stories of worn trigger bars on Gen 5 glocks after 2-4k rounds worry me. I have about 1000 through mine now, and yes, the finish wear on all parts of the gun is far more noticeable than the Gen 3s. My Gen 3 G17 has well over 3000-4000 rounds through it and has barely little barrel or slide wear evident. I guess we need to pray for a Larry Vickers edition with tool steel parts and better finishes/coatings.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-18-17, 23:48
A very nice guy from another forum is mailing me a new trigger bar. I have continued with the cz and the m&p but the g19is in the junk box until I get the part.
Am I the only one who finds it odd that you guys are accepting the flaking internal finish as "OK" on a gun that has less than 2k rounds through it?
This is like your headliner in your car drooping after 10k miles. Unacceptable.
This is 2017. we have a ton of options for polymer guns under $500. Glock saying "Well, it shouldn't affect performance..." that's just them saying "the internals are made of a cheaper material than in the past and this is a result of that."
You have to make concessions for perfection. It's the fifth iteration, after all.
I’ve been tracking this thread for awhile. Within the last six months, I’ve purchased a CZ P10c, HK VP9 tactical and a Gen 5 Glock 19. I usually shoot just Gen 3 Glocks (17/19) and my 1911s for steel matches and IDPA.
Between the CZ P10c and Gen 5 Glock, I still prefer the Glock 19. The size is slightly more compact for conceal carry and the P10 didn’t really do anything for me better than the Glock. The P10 is closer to a XDM in my opinion than the Glock in terms of feel, the trigger and how it handles. I’m surprised more people haven’t made that comparison.
As for the VP9 tactical, it shoots like a dream, but those Youtube videos showing the gun choke on field dust worry me. My HK P30 simply rocks, and ideally, I would use that for a suppressor host. I may still keep the VP9 as a gamer gun at matches, but I still shoot my Glocks well. Time will tell if I keep it.
Regardless, the stories of worn trigger bars on Gen 5 glocks after 2-4k rounds worry me. I have about 1000 through mine now, and yes, the finish wear on all parts of the gun is far more noticeable than the Gen 3s. My Gen 3 G17 has well over 3000-4000 rounds through it and has barely little barrel or slide wear evident. I guess we need to pray for a Larry Vickers edition with tool steel parts and better finishes/coatings.
Haven't had an issue with my VP9 yet, but then again i'm not kicking dust into it.
Check this out too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJr453erCAc
I didn’t know that was a thing. Both my 1911 and M&P1.0 will do it occasionally, but I’ve never had it happen without the mag being fully seated.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI've never had it happen without the mag seating. My M&P 1.0 has done it reliably since day 1 and I actually prefer it.
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MadAngler1
12-19-17, 21:32
Haven't had an issue with my VP9 yet, but then again i'm not kicking dust into it.
Check this out too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJr453erCAc
I saw that, but then I see this and MAC’s tests: https://youtu.be/m2ujZLRsGM4
Point is, why give up my Glock 17 for a VP9? Suppressed use maybe, but otherwise no.
Cincinnatus15
12-20-17, 07:44
So are gen 5 Glocks not g2g?
Cincinnatus15
12-20-17, 07:47
And any known issues with the M&P 2.0 Compact? Anything compromising reliability?
sundance435
12-20-17, 09:06
Haven't had an issue with my VP9 yet, but then again i'm not kicking dust into it.
Check this out too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJr453erCAc
I got a laugh out of the dude just lounging in a puddle, waiting for his VP9 to soak.
3ACR_Scout
12-20-17, 11:02
And any known issues with the M&P 2.0 Compact? Anything compromising reliability?
I enjoy watching Barrett Fawbush’s reviews on YT - he doesn’t seem to take himself too seriously. For what it’s worth, he experienced extraction issues with the 2.0, seen in the opening segment of this video:
M&P 2.0 (https://youtu.be/3sJxWZDZ46E)
With the 2.0 Compact, he reported that he had a stovepipe and a failure to feed in the first 1,800 rounds he put through his:
MP9 2.0c (https://youtu.be/ilMkPJeckEg) (reliability discussed at the 9:45 min mark)
It’s not a definitive or “known” issue, but what he’s getting at is that he’s seen a bunch of FTF and FTE issues with older M&P models in the classes he teaches, so he’s concerned that the two issues he experienced are potential indicators of a trend with the brand. I’m sure most people here will discount his report or say that it’s a sample of one (two 2.0s with the same shooter), which is totally true. However, as he said, there are other pistols that you could put 1,800 round through (or 10,000) with no issues at all. Maybe just something to keep an eye out for.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-20-17, 18:03
Well, I can say in my sample of one the M&p is now over 2k and the Glock is sitting in a plastic box awaiting parts at the 1800 round mark. The CZ got past 2100 before its single FTf with no other problems. I am underwhelmed by the Glock to say the least, but again, it is just one gun (well, and the other gen5s with the same issue out there).
I don’t think it is fair to say yet that the gen5 isn’t good to go, but I would probably look at a gen 3 if I was carrying one for self defense.
If the flaking of the plating is really the issue I think it would likely be across every model they're doing now. My 43 did the same thing.
I think the trigger bar rubbing on the slide release or something else makes the Gen5 trigger get really bad when the pistol is dirty. I detail stripped and cleaned mine again, re-polished the trigger bar, greased all contact points on reassembly and the trigger is nice again.
I put 500 rounds through it, pretty heavily lubed, abd the trigger just starts to suck. I don't know why, it was good for 4K before it got bad the first time, or I just didn't notice the degradation until it got real bad.
I took a stock Beretta M9A1 Compact out the other day and it was so much easier to shoot than the Glock I almost wondered why I even bother with 'em at this point. Answer: Glock 43. If it wasn't for that one, I wouldn't own a Glock and didn't for years.
ruckusjuice
12-20-17, 20:15
I don’t think the Gen5 trigger issue is something common. I put over 2100 rounds through my 19-5 before I cleaned it. The playing on the trigger guard didn’t flake and I didn’t notice the trigger pull get any worse.
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I don’t think the Gen5 trigger issue is something common. I put over 2100 rounds through my 19-5 before I cleaned it. The playing on the trigger guard didn’t flake and I didn’t notice the trigger pull get any worse.
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Seems pretty common after 4k rounds.
ruckusjuice
12-20-17, 21:06
I’ll definitely update if I get the same issue at 4K rounds.
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The Dumb Gun Collector
12-20-17, 23:19
I’m not 100 percent but mine started failing at 1500-1800 but I wasn’t cleaning it. Presumably if you really baby it you can keep it running a bit longer.
Mine didn't get cleaned until I took it apart at 4200, but it was well lubed the whole time.
Any Gen 4's with trigger bars flaking ?
Official Kremlin Transmission
Cincinnatus15
12-24-17, 11:41
Any Gen 4's with trigger bars flaking ?
Official Kremlin Transmission
Also curious about this. I carry a gen 3 19 and it's been a great pistol. I'd like to pick up another soon but leaning toward a gen 4 if there's no issues with them.
hopetonbrown
12-24-17, 12:11
So there's like 3 guys with flaking trigger bars?
So there's like 3 guys with flaking trigger bars?
I believe there are more on other forums. It seems to take a fair amount of rounds to get there though, most people haven’t shot that much yet.
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GiddyHitch
12-24-17, 16:54
I wonder how much money Glocked saved by cheaping out on this part...
This is kinda sad.
Flaking or adhesion issues on a plated part is an indication of a poor pretreatment process (cleaning and activation of the base metal surface to be plated). The fact that these parts are getting into customer’s guns is an indication of poor OQC at the plater and poor IQC at Glock - both sides of this transaction missed this issue.
https://advancedplatingtech.com/technical-library/plating-topics/plating-flake-loose-adhesion-plated-layer/
In other Glock news, my 19-3 has now started giving me BTF and a FTE around 600rd. No sign of trigger bar flaking though. Might go back to the VP9.
Flaking or adhesion issues on a plated part is an indication of a poor pretreatment process (cleaning and activation of the base metal surface to be plated). The fact that these parts are getting into customer’s guns is an indication of poor OQC at the plater and poor IQC at Glock - both sides of this transaction missed this issue.
https://advancedplatingtech.com/technical-library/plating-topics/plating-flake-loose-adhesion-plated-layer/
In other Glock news, my 19-3 has now started giving me BTF and a FTE around 600rd. No sign of trigger bar flaking though. Might go back to the VP9.
It does sound like poor preparation and then lacking proper inspection by Glock. However to assess how serious a problem it is, you would need a numerator and denominator of such instances. Right now, I have a broken VP9 back at HK for repair, and that one experience doesn’t tell much about the VP9 overall.
It does sound like poor preparation and then lacking proper inspection by Glock. However to assess how serious a problem it is, you would need a numerator and denominator of such instances. Right now, I have a broken VP9 back at HK for repair, and that one experience doesn’t tell much about the VP9 overall.
How'd the VP9 break on you
hopetonbrown
12-24-17, 21:36
Might go back to the VP9.
Here's a broken trigger return spring on a local VP9. This one, GJM's, just 1 more before we can start a forum panic. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171225/92368056af60f0dc9fc94f57099d1c4e.jpg
How'd the VP9 break on you
Intermittent problem since new, where the trigger doesn’t reset.
Flaking or adhesion issues on a plated part is an indication of a poor pretreatment process (cleaning and activation of the base metal surface to be plated). The fact that these parts are getting into customer’s guns is an indication of poor OQC at the plater and poor IQC at Glock - both sides of this transaction missed this issue.
https://advancedplatingtech.com/technical-library/plating-topics/plating-flake-loose-adhesion-plated-layer/
In other Glock news, my 19-3 has now started giving me BTF and a FTE around 600rd. No sign of trigger bar flaking though. Might go back to the VP9.
This is true, but it could also be a problem with the process itself. It could also be the wrong process for the base metal, depending on what the plating is.
Intermittent problem since new, where the trigger doesn’t reset.
That's my biggest reason my CZ's aren't in my night stands.
Man, this is disappointing. Did HK take care of you guys really well or not really?
3ACR_Scout
12-25-17, 09:44
I believe there are more on other forums. It seems to take a fair amount of rounds to get there though, most people haven’t shot that much yet.
Mine occurred around the 1,500-1,700 mark on my G43 pictured earlier (I contacted Glock at the 1,700 mark). Mine may be an extreme case for it to happen that soon. I replaced the trigger assembly with a smooth one at that point, so I’ll be keeping an eye on the new trigger bar. I’ve also purchased two G17 trigger assemblies separately in the past year to replace serrated G19 triggers, so I’ll be watching those for flaking too. One of those G17 trigger bars had some significant oxidation(?) on it in the package, with a green film covering it fairly evenly (immediately made me think of the Statue of Liberty). Never seen that before on a new Glock part. I haven’t polished that one yet, but I expect that will clean it up in the spots that matter.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-25-17, 18:05
Again, to be fair to Glock, the gun has been subjected to 1800 ish rounds of steel TULA without cleaning. I am sure Glock would point out that they do not recommend treating your $550 gun like that.
GiddyHitch
12-25-17, 18:46
Here's a broken trigger return spring on a local VP9. This one, GJM's, just 1 more before we can start a forum panic.
My VP9 has been solid for 7500rd until I made the switch to the 19-3. Sample size of ones, granted, but these are ones specific to me.
This is true, but it could also be a problem with the process itself. It could also be the wrong process for the base metal, depending on what the plating is.
I would assume that after 30 odd years of producing the Plastic Fantastic that Glock would know how to spec plating on their parts and qualify their processes/suppliers but considering that they still haven’t solved BTF, perhaps you’re right.
My VP9 has been solid for 7500rd until I made the switch to the 19-3. Sample size of ones, granted, but these are ones specific to me.
I would assume that after 30 odd years of producing the Plastic Fantastic that Glock would know how to spec plating on their parts and qualify their processes/suppliers but considering that they still haven’t solved BTF, perhaps you’re right.
How new is you Gen 3 19?
I just got one brand new and it's been giving me BTF since the first mag through it. I only put Speer Lawman 124 gr through it, so I doubt the issue is crap ammo. I have about 400 rounds through, but in all the 400 rounds I would have BTF 1- 3 times per mag for every mag. I used factory 15 round and 17 round mags through it.
How new is you Gen 3 19?
I just got one brand new and it's been giving me BTF since the first mag through it. I only put Speer Lawman 124 gr through it, so I doubt the issue is crap ammo. I have about 400 rounds through, but in all the 400 rounds I would have BTF 1- 3 times per mag for every mag. I used factory 15 round and 17 round mags through it.
What's the serial? Mine was a TTPXXXX serial and it did NOT have BTF. I remember during that time I bought it (2012~) there was a HUGE thread on here where people logged their serials and if they had BTF.
How new is you Gen 3 19?
I just got one brand new and it's been giving me BTF since the first mag through it. I only put Speer Lawman 124 gr through it, so I doubt the issue is crap ammo. I have about 400 rounds through, but in all the 400 rounds I would have BTF 1- 3 times per mag for every mag. I used factory 15 round and 17 round mags through it.
Weak grips sink ships.
MSparks909
12-28-17, 21:07
Weak grips sink ships.
That’s a BS copout. It’s not always the shooter’s grip that is the culprit. Some Glocks just give BTF. If you get one that doesn’t, go buy a lottery ticket and count yourself lucky.
That’s a BS copout. It’s not always the shooter’s grip that is the culprit. Some Glocks just give BTF. If you get one that doesn’t, go buy a lottery ticket and count yourself lucky.I have 10. In all calibers between 1st and 4th gen. None BTF. I have friends with Glocks. No BTF there either.
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Weak grips sink ships.
Haha, I'm sure weak grip wasn't the issue here. I had 2 others shoot a couple mags through it too with the same problem.
What's the serial? Mine was a TTPXXXX serial and it did NOT have BTF. I remember during that time I bought it (2012~) there was a HUGE thread on here where people logged their serials and if they had BTF.
Mine is BFNZxxx
How new is you Gen 3 19?
I just got one brand new and it's been giving me BTF since the first mag through it. I only put Speer Lawman 124 gr through it, so I doubt the issue is crap ammo. I have about 400 rounds through, but in all the 400 rounds I would have BTF 1- 3 times per mag for every mag. I used factory 15 round and 17 round mags through it.
I was a "Glock Only" man until I bought two Gen4 Glock 19 several months apart in 2012. From the first magazine full in each one I got severe brass to face. Severe as in at least 6-8 hot empties into my face and shooting glasses with each magazine full. Brand of ammunition, bullet weight, power level or shooter holding the gun made no difference. Those two Glocks just hammered the face of the shooter.
On the shooting forums other people were experiencing the same thing at that time. Of course, the die hard Glock fanbois all blamed the BTF on limp wrists or poor shooting grips. None of them tried to explain how me and others who had been shooting Glock 19s for years suddenly became limp wrist shooters to the point that they got BTF on every-single-magazine full. It was a brand loyal blindness that blocked out their reason. And they were quite adamant about it. But the fact is that it was the guns that were the problem and not the shooters.
I finally put an Apex Extractor Kit in one of my offending Glock 19s. Instant fix. I ordered and installed another Apex in my second G19 with the same happy results.
Since then each of my G19s have over 2,000 rounds though them and they haven't hit me even once with a hot empty. It was the guns problem all along. Not the shooters.
I never had any BTF behavior with any of the previous generation Glock 19s that I had owned or any other of the different model Glocks in four different calibers that I had owned. Glock made some change, or lapse of quality control, during the Gen3 and Gen4 model 19s.
The "defend Glock Perfection to the death" fanbois still haven't accepted the fact that there was a BTF problem with those Glock 19s that did not previously exist.
There have been various fixes what worked for different shooters but the Apex worked for both my guns. Here is a link that may prove useful to you:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19739-LL-s-quot-Almost-Guaranteed-to-Work-fixes-for-Gen4-Glock-9mm-issues-quot
Good luck.
ON TOPIC!
Any new Range visits Greg?
Any updates ? Also, anyone see any 10rd compact mags yet?
MSparks909
01-03-18, 13:15
I have 10. In all calibers between 1st and 4th gen. None BTF. I have friends with Glocks. No BTF there either.
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Then I’d go buy 10 lottery tickets. I’ve got a G2 19 and a G4 19 that both needed Apex Extractors to run correctly. I’ve got a G5 19 & 17 and both have normal ejection. I own Glocks because I think everyone needs at least one (along with at least one 1911, AR and AK). I like my Gen 5s. They run how Glocks are supposed to.
Then I’d go buy 10 lottery tickets. I’ve got a G2 19 and a G4 19 that both needed Apex Extractors to run correctly. I’ve got a G5 19 & 17 and both have normal ejection. I own Glocks because I think everyone needs at least one (along with at least one 1911, AR and AK). I like my Gen 5s. They run how Glocks are supposed to.I know. You're the only one that seems to have ejection problems with all/most gens.
I've bought Glocks in the past, traded for other guns, bought again, sold again. Never had BTF. Most of this was prior to 2009 but still no BTF on 1st, 2nd, 3rd gens. If I had this much problem with any firearms manufacturer I would have dumped them long ago and settled on something else. I don't need to have at least one of anything that so finicky
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MSparks909
01-03-18, 14:02
I know. You're the only one that seems to have ejection problems with all/most gens.
I've bought Glocks in the past, traded for other guns, bought again, sold again. Never had BTF. Most of this was prior to 2009 but still no BTF on 1st, 2nd, 3rd gens. If I had this much problem with any firearms manufacturer I would have dumped them long ago and settled on something else. I don't need to have at least one of anything that so finicky
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Uhhh...no? I’m not pretending I’m the only one with BTF and I don’t have anything against Glock. I just call it like I see it. What I don’t do is blame it on limp wristing like many Glock fanboi’s do...I personally think it’s more of a tolerance stacking thing.
I know. You're the only one that seems to have ejection problems with all/most gens.
I've bought Glocks in the past, traded for other guns, bought again, sold again. Never had BTF. Most of this was prior to 2009 but still no BTF on 1st, 2nd, 3rd gens. If I had this much problem with any firearms manufacturer I would have dumped them long ago and settled on something else. I don't need to have at least one of anything that so finicky
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I've had BTF with Gen3 9mm, Gen4 9mm, and Gen4 .45acp... over five different pistols I've owned that had BTF... some that even Apex Extractor and different extractor spring/plunger wouldn't cure. Gen5 finally seems to have gotten it right. I had long written Glock off due to all the shenanigans and lack of QC. Gen5 has brought me back, thankfully.
Uhhh...no? I’m not pretending I’m the only one with BTF and I don’t have anything against Glock. I just call it like I see it. What I don’t do is blame it on limp wristing like many Glock fanboi’s do...I personally think it’s more of a tolerance stacking thing.
The whole limpwristing thing drove me nuts. They just couldn't accept and grasp the fact that a Glock might actually be schucking spent cases vertically and straight back...
Dude. Stop drifting. Start a new thread. This is a g19 gen5 vs 2.0 compact vs cz P10C shootout thread.
NCPatrolAR
01-09-18, 04:32
anyone else have some comparisons between the mentioned guns?
Cincinnatus15
01-10-18, 14:44
What's the word on the Gen 5 19? Trigger bar flaking a widespread issue ?
jcalvert86
01-10-18, 20:19
anyone else have some comparisons between the mentioned guns?
I've put around 350rd through the Gen 5 and 250 or so through the P-10C.
Can't go wrong with either option, but personally prefer the Gen 5... shoots better for me.
No issues with either gun.
jschmitt08
01-11-18, 06:27
What's the word on the Gen 5 19? Trigger bar flaking a widespread issue ?
I have 1200 rounds through mine with no issues.
Nice comparison.
I'm digging my 2.0 M&P. Good pistol so far.
Nice comparison.
I'm digging my 2.0 M&P. Good pistol so far.of the cz or 2.0 compact which would you choose? I have a gen3 glock 19 and gen 4 17.
I really did like my older mp compact but wanted the extra capacity the 19 offered.
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of the cz or 2.0 compact which would you choose? I have a gen3 glock 19 and gen 4 17.
I really did like my older mp compact but wanted the extra capacity the 19 offered.
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My experience with the CZ is limited to fondling one at a LGS. It seems to have a good trigger and some have night sights standard. It feels good in the hand.
The M&P is great as well, but the aggressive texture may turn some people off if they carry it IWB without an undershirt. That can be remedied though.
of the cz or 2.0 compact which would you choose? I have a gen3 glock 19 and gen 4 17.
I really did like my older mp compact but wanted the extra capacity the 19 offered.
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The CZ feels good and has a good trigger, but the 2 I have owned have had numerous quality issues. If you just want something to shoot at the range its fine. If you are more concerned with reliability and durability I would get the 2.0.
Swamprattler
01-13-18, 05:39
I had been a confirmed Glock guy for twenty years, especially liking the G19 thinking it was the perfect CCW. I have tried many other guns but always came back to Glocks. I recently bought the M&P 2.0 compact, and could not believe how much more accurately I shoot with it. It is now my primary carry gun and I have purchased another one. The grip angle seems perfect for me, and no long learning curve to shoot it like the Glocks. The aggressive grip is one of its best features, and lends itself to better shooting for me. I may put an Apex trigger in it, but the OEM trigger is much improved over the previous models. I will keep my Glock 19's, because they have proven themselves over time to be reliable. Looking forward to seeing if the M&P 2.0's prove to be reliable over time.
jackblack73
01-13-18, 08:57
I'm the opposite. I bought an M&P 2.0 Compact a week and a half ago and shot it last weekend. I thought the trigger was decent in the store and the grip felt great. But when I shot it I was very inaccurate. I can keep my Glock (a 23 with 9mm conversion barrel) in one ragged hole shooting twice as fast as the M&P. I'm not sure if it's because the trigger breaks further back or what. I'm planning to go to the range this weekend to work on it.
The CZ feels good and has a good trigger, but the 2 I have owned have had numerous quality issues. If you just want something to shoot at the range its fine. If you are more concerned with reliability and durability I would get the 2.0.
I have both the p10c and a 2.0 5 inch. I've been impressed with the build quality of the 2.0.
I got my p10c last week and so far have not been impressed with the initial quality. The night sights are good and they contrast well, almost like trijicon hds. However, while stripping the gun, it's locked up on me two times, which is strange. I do like the magazine release button.
I'll take it out to the range after my work things done.
Speaking of which, my work thing will allow me to put my vp9 through a 1k round course. So I can at least put that to a small test.
I shot a friend's 2.0 Compact the other week and was very accurate with it. I did feel that the reset was kind of mushy though. There was a tactile reset in there but you had to go through so mushiness to get to it. It also felt like the trigger kind of bounced past the reset a lot. Is this typical or isolated to my friends gun?
Has anyone compiled serial numbers with the CZ's to determine a possible bad lot or something with the quality control? I'm not sure what serial number mine is but I got it on the LEO program early on. It runs great with about 2000 rds through it and is my favorite pistol.
jpgm
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-13-18, 15:03
I have put this entire project on indefinite hold for 2018 out of boredom. LOL. The M&P was the only gun to go without a hint of hassle. The CZ was pretty hassle free with some break-in of the controls. The Glock was hassle free until the paper-mache' trigger bar started dying. I'm going to shoot 1911s for a while. I figured, if I am dealing with drama I might as well be shooting a gun I love. I'll keep yah posted.
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