View Full Version : The Maturation of the AR15 Owner - Is the 6920 the Endgame?
Eurodriver
09-27-17, 23:13
Recently I've realized three truths with respect to guns:
1) The AR15 platform will do 99% of what I need a rifle to ever do.
2) A properly inspected and zeroed Colt 6920 will do 99% of what I need an AR15 to ever do.
2) An AR15 setup for the remaining 1% is going to suck at the other 99%
Take for example the below video recorded just a short while ago. Suppressed SBR. Aimpoint T1. Gemtech BCG. ATPIAL-C Laser. Surefire dual tapeswitch. That gun scores serious points on the cool factor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxlhLzdZ8uU
But, "Why all the misses Eurodriver? I thought you could shoot" Yeah no kidding. Because running 300 yards (on the third try) and shooting a rifle that has an 18oz weight hanging off the end plus a quad rail, laser, flashlight, spare batteries, a tapeswitch, a suppressor mount, etc kind of sucks.
For another example - shooting at 600y last year during the initial rainbands of a hurricane.
Anyone wanna try running a 3 gun match with a 20" Krieger HBAR and a 24oz suppressor hanging off the end? Not to mention how great a FFP 4.5x Nightforce is going to be for those room-distance t-box shots. (Sarcasm)
But - and night being the only possible exception - a Colt 6920 would come damn close to doing everything the above rifles will do. Much closer to their objectives than those rifles will come to a general purpose fighting gun. A 6920 won't melt your Gortex either. (I'm actually not trying to be a motivator in the video, I happened to have the shirt and the only Goretex I have are MARPAT...and since I was in a Rice Paddy...)
Given my experiences and curiosity, what does your rifle do that a Colt 6920 does not? Why do you have the kit that you have, and what have you found it brings to the table? I have not found a carbine on the market that will outperform a Colt 6920 in any meaningful way in any course of fire that I shoot outside of sub MOA gong matches at 600 yards. No matter what kind of cool gear I buy - I always end right back with a 6920. It just doesn't do anything a 6920 won't. Given the interest in the Trooper, I suspect I might not be alone in these musings.
I must caveat here that a 6920 doesn't necessarily have to be a Colt. I use the term loosely to describe any quality, well built simple 16" carbine. I readily concede that BCM, Sionics, and others make reliable carbines, but a BCM 14.5" ELW Midlength is not the same thing as a 6920. Conversely, this is not the place to whine about your 16" Bushmaster carbine ripping off caseheads of 5.56mm ammo acting like 16" carbines are unreliable.
What does a free float rail bring to the table over a plastic MOE handguard? Less POI shift? To what amount? I haven't seen any difference in practical shooting well out to 300 yards whether my rifle was free floated or had a KAC M4 RAS rail. "They're stronger"? Please, let me show you my video of me running over a Magpul MOE equipped rifle with a truck... What does a custom built gun do that a 6920 doesn't? I guess if you're a top tier 3 gun competitor in national competitions...but who here is doing that and how well do those guns fare when they're run over by a truck or buried in sand?
For me and guys like me, the only reason I own a firearm is to become proficient with it in as many situations as possible. I want to be able to stack outside a house, pie a window, and then shoot a moving target at 1/2 a mile in winds that make everyone stay home while the gun is caked in mud. Not everyone is like that. Some people just like to have guns to play with, or look at, or post pictures of it on the internet. This thread is not for you. I collect bottles of bourbon. I care not at all who made the glass or if the bourbon is straight or aged just a few months as long as the bottle and label are neat. I get it, but if you're a gun nerd go be a gun nerd somewhere else. :) I want to know what results shooters are seeing with these, frankly, very expensive modifications to the AR15 platform that I've simply seen little tangible benefit from.
I know everyone posts this in every thread - that is a good thing - but a Colt 6920 (or a Trooper) is roughly 7 bills. What's that rifle not capable of doing that you do as a shooter?
Lastly, my apologies to everyone for not creating a thread about a new product release, an aesthetic design, or asking what to buy. Also, I'm not trying to hate on anyone for building a fancy gun of course. I just want to stimulate discussion on, and learn from the forum, which parts are for show, which provide tangible benefit, and how to tell if it's worth it.
This should be a good discussion.
I think it's like everything else firearm related. People tend to get caught up in the new, cool, whatever and outright dismiss the fact they simply need to orient and validate their equipment to their specific needs and purposes.
That's not to say having all the cool stuff is bad but mission drives gear the focus should be on increasing proficiency at the most fundamental level. Gear that augments that after the fact is just a bonus.
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This. Is a highly relevant thread now more than ever. You can make a basic carbine more comfortable but if you can't shoot with it; what then?
Some have seen my "slutty" Colt. It is super basic save for a FF KAC RAS that does nothing major except be a rail I got at a good price. So named because it doesn't care what I do to it. It just goes. I can put on and take off things I need at will because Pic rails aint going anywhere. FSBs dont break. Colt makes barrels that will always be able to hit a human at 400 yds, carbine gas because thats how Colt makes em.
Dont look sexy but it just feels right. Bullet dont care. Target don't care. War Pony is sum of its parts and the Slutty Colt appellation reflects how little its owner cares about it.
Its meant to be used. Specialty rifles are fine. This is America.
But you can't buy proficiency and you cant buy a history. You gotta make it and earn it.
Everybody in the world will sell you anything and everything but The Work.
You can't do much better. Buy the rifle. Shoot the rifle.
Know. What. You. Are. Doing.
Get it dirty.
This is the Rennaissance of the American Rifleman.
You arent allowed to be fat dumb and happy anymore
Get a 6920 and shoot.
Take for example the below video recorded just a short while ago. Suppressed SBR. Aimpoint T1. Gemtech BCG. ATPIAL-C Laser. Surefire dual tapeswitch. That gun scores serious points on the cool factor.
.........................................
Lastly, my apologies to everyone for not creating a thread about a new product release, an aesthetic design, or asking what to buy.
1. I'm lost what you are talking about with the 6920 title, and then listing off your SBR.
2. I guess the last line is supposed to be edgy, but this thread is a concept which has been talked about at least as much if not more than the above, with the possible exception of the "what to buy threads".
3. I don't think many people are going to argue that a 6920 is an outstanding base / platform.
Mr. Goodtimes
09-28-17, 00:02
I started writing a fairly lengthy response and then realized I could some this up with a lot fewer key strokes.
- Most people waste time worrying about shit that doesn't matter. It doesn't really matter that you have a specific AR variant to cover every single possible SHTF scenario, because the average gun owner/survivalist is going to die from heart disease or type 2 diabetes before they die from having the wrong AR setup.
- Colt is a known quantity, it works. Why even mess around with other brands? IMO people have too many choices as it is. So many brands have come about since I started shooting that it makes my soul hurt. I always revert back to Colt, DD, BCM, LMT, KAC. If you don't know which one of them to buy then just buy a Colt and by the time you know which one to buy you won't need to ask. If it's not one of those then why even bother? Those brands offer a gun owner everything they could possibly ever want in a rifle, and they're all known, quality quantities. If you deviate from them, you're only doing so to feel special. And that's stupid.
- Most people forget that a gun is a tool. This is the one major reason people don't buy Colts and Glocks. They have an asinine and immature desire to feel different. "I don't want to buy a Colt because that's what everyone has." Yea well it ****ing works. Get over it, buy a colt, your parents lied to you, you aren't special.
- A 16in carbine with a WML and an Aimpoint will do 99% of what 99% of average people need a rifle to do. It may not do it as well as a specialized piece but it will do it well enough that it probably won't matter for most people. It's not glorious but its reality, it works.
- A shooter who spends 1k on a Colt Trooper and 5k on training and ammo is infinitely more deadly than someone who spent 5k on rifles and 1k on training.
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Mr. Goodtimes
09-28-17, 00:07
1. 3. I don't think many people are going to argue that a 6920 is an outstanding base / platform.
Most probably won't argue it, but then they'll go on to post a thread and subsequently spend way to many hours worrying about which profile scionics barrel to buy and weather their aero upper will fit in their spikes lower or not.
There's a very simple way to avoid the painful confusion. 6920.
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Most probably won't argue it, but then they'll go on to post a thread and subsequently spend way to many hours worrying about which profile scionics barrel to buy and weather their aero upper will fit in their spikes lower or not.
There's a very simple way to avoid the painful confusion. 6920.
Well stated.
Euro - I actually built a 16" PSA Freedom Rifle to run over with my truck and throw around in the mud like you did your 6920. I put a fixed Troy Battlesight on the rear and went out to zero it. The little stainless steel SOB shot so good and I had such fun shooting the little devil that I nixed the mud and the blood and the beer.
It is now my daughter's rifle (wink, wink) I put Magpul MOE handguards on it, an M-Lok VFG, an M-Lok QD sling mount, and a SOB B-sling on it for her (wink, wink). Shoots under 2 moa. right now I have less than 200 rounds through it, but it is completely functionally, so far. Not bad for a 159.00 upper with free shipping.
My go to rifle (versus SBR) is a 16" with an MI SS 13" rail on it, a stubby VFG, light run forward right side of rifle (I'm a left), Ti-7 stock, ARMS 40's front and rear, Aimpoint PRO. It has one of Greg Sully's perfect lowers, a BCM upper with a Green Mountain barrel.
Really the only thing it does better than the little PSA carbine is that it is more comfortable to shoot. It allows me to extend out more and not be so cramped - my sleeve length is 36. Plus I like my hand placement on the slimmer rail versus the hand guards.
At this point in my life shooting is something I enjoy, like others enjoy golf. So our motivations may differ. I rarely wear gloves, don't really have a problem with heat on any of the rifles, because I don't fo mag dumps. Generally, every couple mags I'm giving the rifle a rest to change up targets. A lot of the time I'm hiking from 1 to 3 hundred yards to paint steel (okay a lot of times at 300 and for sure when I shoot 600, I drive). So the rifle has plenty of time to cool.
That is one of the things that is so dang cool about these rifles, you can add your little quirks - I have a Geiselle Enhanced Bolt Catch on it, a KAC Ambidextrous Mag Release, and a V7 3 Gun short throw safety - because I like the way they operate.
noonesshowmonkey
09-28-17, 04:25
There are a lot of things that a rifle can do that a 6920 cannot. However much those may be worth to you, and how much impact they actually have on the task at hand (scoring hits) is another thing indeed.
Mid-gas is nice. It lets you get farther out towards the muzzle and still have an FSP. Or, you get a 6920-R, and it's FF out to 13". Will mid-gas make me a more accurate shooter? I highly doubt it. Are there mechanical performance gains to be had? Probably, but they are incremental, and likely of such a slim margin that to call them necessary is to inform everyone around you that your priorities are lost in the sauce.
A precision stainless steel recce-type barrel is great. To take advantage of it, you'll need an LPVO at the least. The recce-type of accurized rifle is probably the only argument to be made against a 6920. Even so, a stock 6920 firing 77gr OTM is still more than accurate enough to hit torsos out to the limits of the cartridge's effective range. If, that is, you are good enough to make those hits. Even then, how much of an improvement are we talking about? What was the cost in $$$ invested? The weight gained?
Ambidextrous controls are great. They also cost very little to obtain, and can be done by hand with minimal tools in minutes. Also, plenty of lefties have run right-hand-dominant rifles for a long time, and the main issue that most have is the ejection across their face. There isn't much to be done about that with an AR-pattern rifle.
Past these details (I am sure that I'm missing a few), you really need to start talking about specialty rifles, such as the SPR/DMR or a mk18.
Honestly, the 6920-R is such a sexy deal that I am considering getting one despite already having a 16" AR, and thus having the problem 'solved'. In the world of hammers, it hammers pretty damn well.
The 6920 is for sure the best deal in rifles that has existed in my lifetime. The prices right now are unreal. And I agree it can do almost anything I would ever need it to do, which is why its very similar M4 cousins are general issue weapons. It is a Jack-of -all-trades, and it out-masters more things than most users. I can't find a logical reason to buy any other rifle right now.
However, Eurodriver, when does it cease to be a 6920 and turn into a special snowflake gun? Lighter barrel? Shorter barrel with longer rail? What about a Geissele trigger and a muzzlebrake and a whizz-bang charging handle with all different furniture? At some point, a gun put together from a stripped receiver isn't inferior (with the right attention to detail), just a shorter path to customization with fewer leftover parts.
My go-to rifle is built from parts, but I have no illusion or intent for it to be significantly different from my last work gun. Other than the longer rail, I didn't really want it to be very different, functionally.
Fordtough25
09-28-17, 04:56
You are 100% correct sir, over the years I've had all sorts of different config ar15s and I always end up grabbing my 6920 when I have something to shoot/in a hurry. It works and works well no matter what ammo is in the magazine or how dirty it is.
PatrioticDisorder
09-28-17, 05:32
IDK bro, for me a 10.3-11.5 suppressed rifle is all I need. If I ever need the rifle for real I'm guessing I won't be putting my ear pro on all nice, I'd prefer to not totally wreck my hearing.... Besides I don't do much shooting at ranges beyond 100 yards and if I ever need the a rifle for real, even in the most Red Dawn of scenarios I cannot imagine taking a shot over 100 yards... But I do get it, simplifying what your needs are and focusing on that makes sense. I have several handguns but I only really "need" 1 of my G19s and a G43 and I'm good, same principles.
Eurodriver
09-28-17, 06:08
However, Eurodriver, when does it cease to be a 6920 and turn into a special snowflake gun? Lighter barrel? Shorter barrel with longer rail? What about a Geissele trigger and a muzzlebrake and a whizz-bang charging handle with all different furniture? At some point, a gun put together from a stripped receiver isn't inferior (with the right attention to detail), just a shorter path to customization with fewer leftover parts.
That's a good question, and of course not one there is an objective answer to. I actually thought about diving into that in my OP (which I should probably clean it up a bit given the circumstances behind when I wrote it :)) but it was already getting lengthy.
The point that I was making in a broad sense is that so many guys with ARs spend more time figuring out what neat new gadget to buy for it than learning how to shoot the damn thing. If you are running skinny drills from the standing, kneeling, and prone at 25 yards on the reg and can hit a penciled in T box consistently then my post doesn't really apply to you. Of course, there is nothing inherently bad with buying a Geissele trigger or throwing a free float rail on your gun.
But I can't tell you how many guys sit next to me at the range with a $2,500 Frankenbuild who think they need all of that new stuff to make hits at 300 yards and then spend half the day trying to figure out where there impacts are. Take that $1,800 extra you spent on fancy stuff and go have someone teach you how to shoot. Hell, watch some YouTube videos and teach yourself how to shoot. That's 6,000 rounds of Wolf Gold you could buy with a 6920. With that many rounds down the pipe the probability of improving your skill set, even by accident, is basically 1.
1. I'm lost what you are talking about with the 6920 title, and then listing off your SBR.
Late night posting results.
Do you hear all of those misses? Ran the same thing with a bone stock 6920 and irons and had none. Why? No gas in your face with a 6920, it weighs significantly less, and flatter trajectory. My point, which I probably should have stated, is that you can have $2,000 in cool shit on your gun and you might find it actually makes you worse.
Unfortunately the drone battery died, but we'll do it again soon.
grizzlyblake
09-28-17, 06:27
Great thread, Euro.
In your opinion what does the free float rail bring to the table - such as what the 6920 Trooper is configured with? Do the pros outweigh the cons, cost aside?
I ask because currently the 6720 is essentially the same price as the 6920-R Trooper. However, the 6720 is literally ready to go out of the box - just add an Aimpoint PRO and maybe a IWC mounted light and away you go. The Trooper is getting a LOT of attention here, and for good reason, but it still needs iron sights just to get on the same level as the 6720. (...and apparently heat wraps/grip panels for the rail tube)
6920-R Trooper: $685 (+$80 for MBUS pair = $765)
6720: $717
6920 Magpul SL: $789
Eurodriver
09-28-17, 06:35
Great thread, Euro.
In your opinion what does the free float rail bring to the table - such as what the 6920 Trooper is configured with? Do the pros outweigh the cons, cost aside?
I ask because currently the 6720 is essentially the same price as the 6920-R Trooper. However, the 6720 is literally ready to go out of the box - just add an Aimpoint PRO and maybe a IWC mounted light and away you go. The Trooper is getting a LOT of attention here, and for good reason, but it still needs iron sights just to get on the same level as the 6720. (...and apparently heat wraps/grip panels for the rail tube)
6920-R Trooper: $685 (+$80 for MBUS pair = $765)
6720: $717
6920 Magpul SL: $789
The trooper has kind of thrown a wrench in the "Just buy a 6920" crowd. All things being equal, and in this case I think they are, a FF full length rail is going to make more sense than a plastic hanguard. I mean, really, I don't see anyone advocating buying a Magpul MOE equipped 6920 over a Centurion Rail equipped Trooper for a $43 in savings. I would absolutely get the Trooper. Period. Such an easy decision.
The issue in my OP was more along the lines of guys already having a rifle and want to throw a $350 RIS on it. Do they shoot from barricades that often? Do they have IR lasers? Are they shooting from inside a vehicle? Look at how many guys are talking about dumping their Keymond BCM rails for MLOK. Why? Did it suddenly break? My point is not than a FF rail is bad, it isn't, but do its benefits improve your shooing more than an equivalent $ amount of ammo or instruction.
For the overwhelming vast majority of gun owners, including me, that answer is firmly "No".
I understand and see the wisdom of your point. My very basic BCM 16" middie fills the role because the extra 2" of handguard length makes a huge difference to me (basic meaning FSB, MOE HG, Aimpoint PRO). I think of it as my "serious" rifle.
I do have trouble hitting anything smaller than a clay pigeon with it at 100 yards, so my scoped, G2S equipped, free floated 20" rifle is used for "fun" stuff like shooting small stuff and groups at the range (it's also a simple gun in its own way).
Andy
Yes, in 99% of the time, the 6920 is the endgame. The other 1% can significantly benefit from geissele fcg, FF, etc.
Mr. Goodtimes
09-28-17, 08:16
I use to get all wet over SBR's and honestly I still do. There cool, there a little more exclusive... yadda yadda yadda... but ALL things considered, the reality is that a well setup 16" Carbine gives more versatility than anything else. Period.
Pros of a 16" Carbine:
- Is immediately and readily accessible TODAY.
- Works fine for CQB
- Is highly effective out to 600m
- less gassy when suppressed
- more muzzle velocity
Cons:
- isn't the ultimate CQB weapon
- gets a little long with a can
Pros of an 11.5:
- More murdery for CQB work.
- Shorter OAL with a can attached
Cons of an 11.5:
- Not readily accessible. Requires additional paperwork and a lengthy wait time.
- Not as effective past 300m
Let's be realistic here and look at what our rifle is really for... If I'm honest, it's for serious social work outside my house. It's beside my bed, but it's probably not the gun I'm grabbing if someone is banging on my door at 0330 in the morning. For that I have a G19 w/ Surefire and some 21rd happy sticks.
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Sancho Panza
09-28-17, 08:18
Pretty much.
Or, the Colt AR6720, or AR15A4.
Did put a 14.5" (P&W) barrel on my 6920, after 19 years...
I would say "maturation" is the right word. At least it describes me. Early on I'd buy a rifle..... regardless of how crappy it was.....then run home and order a bunch of useless crap. You don't want to know how much I spent on a Century Golani! Luckily for me Obama came along!
Stock 6920 is what I have and the only AR I need or want. I'm basic, my gear is basic. The ONLY addition it has is the old discontinued Surefire M500a dedicated forend light. Came that way when I bought it. My only other AR is the 6721. Completely stock to include the carry handle. It was my first Colt and at the time it was too good a price to pass up.
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170928/b65009fdb8ec96d8673fea001f080b43.jpg
I use to get all wet over SBR's and honestly I still do. There cool, there a little more exclusive... yadda yadda yadda... but ALL things considered, the reality is that a well setup 16" Carbine gives more versatility than anything else. Period.
Pros of a 16" Carbine:
- Is immediately and readily accessible TODAY.
- Works fine for CQB
- Is highly effective out to 600m
- less gassy when suppressed
- more muzzle velocity
Cons:
- isn't the ultimate CQB weapon
- gets a little long with a can
Pros of an 11.5:
- More murdery for CQB work.
- Shorter OAL with a can attached
Cons of an 11.5:
- Not readily accessible. Requires additional paperwork and a lengthy wait time.
- Not as effective past 300m
Let's be realistic here and look at what our rifle is really for... If I'm honest, it's for serious social work outside my house. It's beside my bed, but it's probably not the gun I'm grabbing if someone is banging on my door at 0330 in the morning. For that I have a G19 w/ Surefire and some 21rd happy sticks.
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There is no need to tote around a 16" carbine. A 11.5 can do everything a 16 can do for 99% of people, especially with 21st century bonded ammunition.
Mr. Goodtimes
09-28-17, 08:59
There is no need to tote around a 16" carbine. A 11.5 can do everything a 16 can do for 99% of people, especially with 21st century bonded ammunition.
I'll agree with this. When I have my CQB upper in hand it will probably be what I grab the most. Especially when considering that the longest average shot here in the 'Burg is probably around 150-200, however, the one thing that an 11.5 can't do is be my gun TODAY.
Most of us here are above average shooters who are fairly switched on, were talking average gun owner, though. What's better, the 6933 that he/she/it/confused can have in 9 months from now or the one that they can start shooting today?
lower noise aside, how much better is an 11.5 at CQB work than a 16 for average joe? None at all if you hang a can off it, it's the same length. Personally, potential hearing loss is literally the last penny concerns if I'm smoking some hood rat in my house.
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Beat Trash
09-28-17, 09:01
The basic answer to the concept argued in the OP is that one must choose the right tool for the right job.
Unfortunately most end users do not have the experience and/or training to answer that, so for them, a gun like a 6920 is the best answer. If you have someone with an 11.5" SBR with all the bells and whistles on it that's fine. SO long as the person understands the problem that can not be addressed with a 16" 6920 and how/why the 11.5" is the preferred option for this particularly situation.
There have been at least one reply to this post in which it was said the individual has long arms and the FF 13" rail affords him the opportunity to place his support hand farther out. He can articulate the "why" that for him the ff rail is preferred. Many people who are new first time buyers can not articulate the "why".
I've used 6920's for a lot of years. I've since switched to using a DDV7 with a Giessele trigger in it for work. This replaced the 6920 after a lot of thought and training. But I still like and respond the 6920 and it's capabilities.
I still have a few Colt 6920's set aside or already gifted to my kids and step-kids. I installed MagPul MOE-sl furniture on each gun. Add either a Trijicon MRO or an Aimpoint. While I really like my Gisele SSA triggers, I can live with the factory Colt triggers. I now pull the trigger out of the 6920. I clean and degrease it, then properly lube it as I reinstall the trigger. The triggers aren't all that bad.
I think the reason I settled on a Colt 6920 as the long gun portion of the "starter kit" I set up for my kids in anticipation of a Hillary win last year is along the same line of thought that the OP discussed. For a general purpose AR, it is hard to beat a Colt 6920.
jerrysimons
09-28-17, 10:21
A perfect distillation of fighting wisdom from, and perhaps typified by, M4C's resident Jarhead accountant :lol:
I dig my gear don't get me wrong but you are right about needs and wants when it comes to the practical application of civilian rifle use. I agree with you even as one who doesn't really practice the simplicity of gear you preach and I am sure you could out shoot me drunk on any day of the week. That said my Sionics 16" mid FSB build cost me less that a grand and gets a lot of use because it just flat out works, but it is not light.
Just a couple points:
-It seems your point was as much about weight as it was a value estimation of cost against durability and performance.
-There are some technical changes to your comparison I am sure you are aware of, e.g. flatter trajectory between barrels (11.5" vs 16"), etc.
-I see this coming down to what kind of gun guy you are, realistically we are all here because we like a certain type of rifle (AR style) but not everyone has the same drive or goals. I am reminded of the type of gun guy thread Grant started in the general discussion. Many like to be the keyboard commando (not you) and make fun of the different minded people. It's true some priorities are questionable but, you know, manage your money responsibly and spend the rest on what you like. Piss off though if you are pretending to be something or someone you are not (not you) or if one fails to recognize the only path to skill is hard work and training.
All that said my practical mindset is pistol training before anything else, especially if you are constrained by budget, time or access to facilities.
grizzlyblake
09-28-17, 10:37
I'm hesitant to even post this because it has been discussed ad nauseam though the information is usually sprinkled through hundreds of threads over time.
Taking into account that the standard 6920/6720 or 6920-R (this week's must-have) is the gold standard basic carbine - what would you say, Euro, is the most efficient setup of that carbine for the matured AR15 owner? You allude to the suppressor and IR laser being more of a hindrance for the 99%. Is the Aimpoint, metal BUIS, Surefire/Streamlight, and VCAS/Proctor sling the ultimate distillation of technology for the 6920-ish carbine?
I'm hesitant to even post this because it has been discussed ad nauseam though the information is usually sprinkled through hundreds of threads over time.
Taking into account that the standard 6920/6720 or 6920-R (this week's must-have) is the gold standard basic carbine - what would you say, Euro, is the most efficient setup of that carbine for the matured AR15 owner? You allude to the suppressor and IR laser being more of a hindrance for the 99%. Is the Aimpoint, metal BUIS, Surefire/Streamlight, and VCAS/Proctor sling the ultimate distillation of technology for the 6920-ish carbine?
Yes, but with the (hopefully) soon passage of the HPA (embedded in the SHARE ACT), there is no reason everybody should not have a can (of their choosing) on their carbine. Any mitigation of the sound level will minimize hearing loss. There is a reason silencers are ubiquitous in Europa.
Grandma's_Boy
09-28-17, 11:21
There is no need to tote around a 16" carbine. A 11.5 can do everything a 16 can do for 99% of people, especially with 21st century bonded ammunition.
Except for the fact it has ferocious muzzle blast & sound pressure relative to 16", especially compared to the 20" M-16 which 5.56/.223 was designed around.
All of my rifles are very basic. I just like simple. I have two Colts and two BCMs. They are all set up the same way - with an Elzetta 6 o'clock mount that wraps around the A2 FSB. The light is activated by the front sling swivel. I have owned a lot of different ARs over the years. Thankfully, I never felt the need to add a lot of useless "stuff" to a rifle. I do have an Aimpoint PRO that I am going to use in the near future. That, a BUIS and a light are all I could see myself ever needing. And the more expensive rifles, like LaRue, Noveske, etc. would not do anything for me that a Colt or BCM can't. Not because they aren't good rifles, but because I am not a good enough of a shot to wring that extra little bit of accuracy from them. I doubt I'd ever buy one.
crusader377
09-28-17, 12:22
Taking into account that the standard 6920/6720 or 6920-R (this week's must-have) is the gold standard basic carbine - what would you say, Euro, is the most efficient setup of that carbine for the matured AR15 owner? You allude to the suppressor and IR laser being more of a hindrance for the 99%. Is the Aimpoint, metal BUIS, Surefire/Streamlight, and VCAS/Proctor sling the ultimate distillation of technology for the 6920-ish carbine?
I think it probably is for most shooters. I don't have a Colt 6920 but have a quality Colt 6920 clone (Charles Daly M4LE) which I purchased for $900 back when Colts were running $1300. I added an Aimpoint, metal BUIS, Troy Delta FF rail, weaponlight, and VCAS sling and quite honestly even though I have other rifles, it is truly my Jack of all Trades rifle. It is accurate, (approximately 2 MOA with Wolf Gold, 1.3 MOA with Prvi 75gr Match,), reliable (6,000+ jam free rounds), eats every type of ammo in all weather conditions, lightweight, and has excellent shootability. Honestly, if I had one rifle, this rifle would meet all of my home/personal defense needs.
Recently I've realized three truths with respect to guns:
1) The AR15 platform will do 99% of what I need a rifle to ever do.
2) A properly inspected and zeroed Colt 6920 will do 99% of what I need an AR15 to ever do.
2) An AR15 setup for the remaining 1% is going to suck at the other 99%
This is the conclusion I came to in my youth about firearms in general. The basic rifle, handgun and shotgun will do just about anything you needed it to and it's the approach I took when I first started getting serious about ARs- Keep It Simple Slick. For the purposes of my post, I will assume that by "6920", Eurodriver really means "basic 16 inch AR carbine" rather than strictly a 6920 or exact 6920 clone. With that said, I don't think the basic 16 inch carbine in general or the 6920 in particular, is the endgame in the maturation of the AR shooter. It is the beginning. Only by building a firm foundation by shooting a basic rifle, handgun or shotgun, can a shooter evolve enough to know what they need or want to suit their purposes. Only by shooting can a shooter determine what, if any, refinements are needed. And that's the thing- the M4 is the result of decades of refinement in the crucible of combat, not a specialized weapon, but as a general purpose combat rifle. There is very little left to refine.
what does your rifle do that a Colt 6920 does not?
Do you mean the 6920 compared to other basic 16 inch carbines? If so, nothing. Conversely, there is little a 6920 will do that other basic 16 inch carbines won't, but there are subtle things, such as springs, gas port diameters and buffer weights that Colt gets right and many of the other brands miss.
Do you mean a basic 16 inch carbine compared to other configurations? Yes. I find there is a subtle but noticeable improvement in handling with a 14.5 inch barrel without any practical downside. There are NFA/pinned muzzle device considerations, but I can live with that.
I find that I prefer to use an 11.5 inch barrel with a suppressor. Handling is much better than even with a bare 16 inch barrel and I find shooting suppressed more pleasant and less fatiguing. When configured as a pistol, I can have my short barreled AR today. I've been shooting with an arm brace since they came out and other than an LOP that's shorter than I like, I have found no downside. Within 300 yards, the shorty will do anything a basic 16 inch AR will. Maybe further, but I have not yet stretched mine much beyond 300.
For general usage, I don't feel a free float tube offers much of an advantage. Of course, I don't use a laser as an aiming device and don't have a need to mount iron sights to the handguard. I also don't place a lot of torque on a foregrip. I have never missed a shot because I didn't have a free float tube. I have only missed shots because I missed, or because I didn't properly sight in my firearm.
With the exception of the 14.5 inch and the suppressed 11.5 inch ARs, I haven't found any configurations that will do anything a 16 inch basic carbine won't in a general role. But I don't think the 6920 or the basic 16 inch carbine is the endgame (I wouldn't give up my pinned 14.5 inch SOCOM or my suppressed shorty for any 16 inch carbine). I think the basic 16 inch carbine right place to start.
There is no need to tote around a 16" carbine. A 11.5 can do everything a 16 can do for 99% of people, especially with 21st century bonded ammunition.
Without the NFA I think a general purpose carbine would have settled into somewhere between 12" and 14".
To the OP.
1. Throwing a silencer on an SBR kind of sucks. Try a dedicated set up before you give up on it.
2. It's only dark half the day. It wouldn't have gone the same way if you were shooting in the dark half. Then again for realistic defensive use a white light for PID on either carbine would be fine. And you probably wouldn't be shooting at long range.
Realistically how much time do we spend shooting at night? Or in shoot houses?
Without the NFA I think a general purpose carbine would have settled into somewhere between 12" and 14".
To the OP.
1. Throwing a silencer on an SBR kind of sucks. Try a dedicated set up before you give up on it. KAC 11.5 w/QDC
2. It's only dark half the day. It wouldn't have gone the same way if you were shooting in the dark half. Then again for realistic defensive use a white light for PID on either carbine would be fine. And you probably wouldn't be shooting at long range.
Realistically how much time do we spend shooting at night? Or in shoot houses? Not enough time.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/800px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
the most efficient setup of that carbine for the matured AR15 owner? You allude to the suppressor and IR laser being more of a hindrance for the 99%. Is the Aimpoint, metal BUIS, Surefire/Streamlight, and VCAS/Proctor sling the ultimate distillation of technology for the 6920-ish carbine?
The underlined makes a point I'd like to emphasize. This is largely an exercise in futility, although a great discussion. For the matured AR15 owner, there will be a 'standard' as you suggest, rather a point they started from and an end result.
As an example, I choose the slings I use based on what I feel works best from my experience. In this case I prefer the SOB B-sling because it is more ergonomic feeling FOR ME to work the adjustment from the front end of the rifle, rather than the rear. I learned that from using other slings and watching others use their slings.
The more matured AR owner should be more discriminating, modifying their rifle for their perceived needs, for example, does a home defense carbine need a sling? There really isn't an absolute answer to that, just a personal solution, hopefully reached after critical thought.
Currently I've outrun my supply trains, daughter in college, a couple motorcycles that need tires, but, after some thought, in a couple months if the prices for the Colts are in the neighborhood of where they are now, I'll take Beat Trash's advice and start socking up for kids and grandkids.
Outlander Systems
09-28-17, 13:23
In the case of the OP; a lot.
Realistically how much time do we spend shooting at night? Or in shoot houses?
turnburglar
09-28-17, 13:42
Do you hear all of those misses? Ran the same thing with a bone stock 6920 and irons and had none. Why? No gas in your face with a 6920, it weighs significantly less, and flatter trajectory. My point, which I probably should have stated, is that you can have $2,000 in cool shit on your gun and you might find it actually makes you worse.
Unfortunately the drone battery died, but we'll do it again soon.
This is gonna make so many folks loose their mind......
99.9999% of the guns bought and owned by the members on this forum or any corner of the net; is a hobby and nothing more. I don't care what SHTF, HD, EOTWAWKI, scenario you used to justify the purchase. All of it is presupposed fantasy. The guns end up getting parts that trigger 'cooler' somewhere in the homosapian brain. All the real operators that are currently operating don't buy their stuff. It's issued. Now coming full circle, dudes want to be like the dudes operating operationally and end up BUYING the gear that those guys use, despite never needing to conduct said operations.
My personal rifle is set up nothing like my issued one was. I wish my issued one actually had everything my personal one has. Yet my personal rifle wouldn't fit the missions (NVG's) I actually ran like my issued one did. weird, huh?
I don't care what SHTF, HD, EOTWAWKI, scenario you used to justify the purchase. All of it is presupposed fantasy. I can get behind that, if we can also include buying a fire extinguisher, smoke detectors, locks for our doors, wearing seatbelts and storage basic preparedness items as part of this fantasy.
Bottom line, you have to imagine possible scenarios to prepare for them. While they may be fantastic in nature (possible, not probable). We (my family) have lived through quite a few disaster and defense scenarios in the various places I have lived. Embracing or at least acknowledging the fantastic helped our situation to be a little less dire.
elephantrider
09-28-17, 15:10
I can get behind that, if we can also include buying a fire extinguisher, smoke detectors, locks for our doors, wearing seatbelts and storage basic preparedness items as part of this fantasy.
Bottom line, you have to imagine possible scenarios to prepare for them. While they may be fantastic in nature (possible, not probable). We (my family) have lived through quite a few disaster and defense scenarios in the various places I have lived. Embracing or at least acknowledging the fantastic helped our situation to be a little less dire.
Fantastic/fantastical = alien invasion, FEMA death camps, etc.
Realistic possibility (where I live at least) = Earth quake(s), tsunami, heavy storms, etc, etc.
A few weeks ago, I watched Labor Day weekend descend into panicked, scofflaw chaos because a few people felt they had waited too long in traffic after a long, fun day at the beach. Traffic laws? Ain't nobody got time for THAT. I can only imagine what some of the retards living around me would get around to doing a couple days into a real disaster. Decision to be armed and prepared: re-affirmed.
I can get behind that, if we can also include buying a fire extinguisher, smoke detectors, locks for our doors, wearing seatbelts and storage basic preparedness items as part of this fantasy.
Bottom line, you have to imagine possible scenarios to prepare for them. While they may be fantastic in nature (possible, not probable). We (my family) have lived through quite a few disaster and defense scenarios in the various places I have lived. Embracing or at least acknowledging the fantastic helped our situation to be a little less dire.
Good points
I would say "maturation" is the right word. At least it describes me. Early on I'd buy a rifle..... regardless of how crappy it was.....then run home and order a bunch of useless crap. You don't want to know how much I spent on a Century Golani! Luckily for me Obama came along!
Stock 6920 is what I have and the only AR I need or want. I'm basic, my gear is basic. The ONLY addition it has is the old discontinued Surefire M500a dedicated forend light. Came that way when I bought it. My only other AR is the 6721. Completely stock to include the carry handle. It was my first Colt and at the time it was too good a price to pass up.
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170928/b65009fdb8ec96d8673fea001f080b43.jpgWhat light Mount and switch is that?
If you are a shooter...unless you are doing something "special"...you will almost always come to the conclusion you have come to. Not necessarily the 6920part, but the handy, simplicity reigns part.
I'm an old dog compared to you. Did a LOT of rifle/shot gunning in my younger days. Pellet guns, 22LR, bolt .243, lever 30-30. Thousands upon thousands of rounds. What all of that shooting did, was drive me to the "original AR" full time...the lever gun.
I've taken as many deer with a marlin 30A while wearing jeans and a letterman jacket under blaze, as anyone I hunt with. My dad and brother are total gear sluts, and we shake our heads at each other from the extremes of the argument. Difference is I have less in gear than they have in glass, lol.
Which leads me to the subject here...the venerable AR carbine. For ME, it is a utility gun like the lever carbine...but I don't have to stuff a tube every few rounds.
My hunting carbine is a .308, however I have a 6920 too.
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
This is gonna make so many folks loose their mind......
99.9999% of the guns bought and owned by the members on this forum or any corner of the net; is a hobby and nothing more. I don't care what SHTF, HD, EOTWAWKI, scenario you used to justify the purchase. All of it is presupposed fantasy. The guns end up getting parts that trigger 'cooler' somewhere in the homosapian brain. All the real operators that are currently operating don't buy their stuff. It's issued. Now coming full circle, dudes want to be like the dudes operating operationally and end up BUYING the gear that those guys use, despite never needing to conduct said operations.
My personal rifle is set up nothing like my issued one was. I wish my issued one actually had everything my personal one has. Yet my personal rifle wouldn't fit the missions (NVG's) I actually ran like my issued one did. weird, huh?
Who cares how people spend their money? Wants and needs do not have to align.
Who cares how people spend their money? Wants and needs do not have to align.
You should remember that when you are bagging on some dude for not buying what you think he needs. Fair enough?
6920 + an H2 buffer and grip with a steeper angle. Done.
What light Mount and switch is that?
The post you quoted says "The ONLY addition it has is the old discontinued Surefire M500a dedicated forend light."
Andy
You should remember that when you are bagging on some dude for not buying what you think he needs. Fair enough?
If you place the comment in context, you might put two and two together. Fair enough?
What light Mount and switch is that?Surefire M500. It's been discontinued for I don't know how long. The rifle is Police trade. Wherever that came fromhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170928/3240c50db03ebefe4313e17381981403.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170928/9e9523f63dd5504b02e7760cacdc816e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170928/bb11f725ad9b2c59bdd6e2f099888fea.jpg
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Fatorangecat
09-28-17, 17:46
I bought a 6920 and replaced the barrel with an 18" match barrel, Geissele rail and trigger, A5, Sphur mount and Nightforce....the list goes on. I love that rifle for what it is for but I immediately regretted not having a stock 6920. So I bought another one to replace the 6920 I chopped up into a frankengun. I would be money ahead if I had just shot the thing as Colt made it and built another bolt gun.
Official Kremlin Transmission
Rifleman_04
09-28-17, 18:54
There is no need to tote around a 16" carbine. A 11.5 can do everything a 16 can do for 99% of people, especially with 21st century bonded ammunition.
Except travel across state lines without permission.
I love threads like these. Makes me feel less alone in this "tacticool operators operating operationally in living room operations world" since I've been rocking the same standard LMT Carbine setup with 7" DD lite rail I got from Grant in 08.
SeriousStudent
09-28-17, 19:31
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxlhLzdZ8uU
...
Is all that damn water leftover from the hurricane, or is Florida just that wet?
Yes, in 99% of the time, the 6920 is the endgame. The other 1% can significantly benefit from geissele fcg, FF, etc.
I think it's 99% of the time I significantly benefit from an SSA, a Centurion C4 carbine cutout, Aimpoint T2, and Surefire.
A basic 6920 with no add-ons is largely useless around here. You need to be able to identify and aim at night.
I think it's 99% of the time I significantly benefit from an SSA, a Centurion C4 carbine cutout, Aimpoint T2, and Surefire.
A basic 6920 with no add-ons is largely useless around here. You need to be able to identify and aim at night.
It was implied that an RDS & white light for PID were standard...but a FF and SSA? Not so much.
SeriousStudent
09-28-17, 19:43
If you place the comment in context, you might put two and two together. Fair enough?
Stop. Your posts lately have been trending in a direction that you do not wish to pursue.
heavygunner8
09-28-17, 20:00
I read the title as Masturbation of the AR15 Owner. What is wrong with me..
Except travel across state lines without permission.
That's why we build AR pistols with arm braces. I have enjoyed paper free shorty goodness in several states, using that configuration.
Back to OP,
The only thing base rifle wise is get on target faster. A 12" rail allows me to get a more natural POA from a low ready/sling position.
The 1-4 scope allows me to do everything I want with it (hd to hunting).
The stock gets me consistent cheek weld to match the scope.
Outisde of that, a colt would have been good, but were $1200 at the time and I was curious about centurion barrels.
My question, in the vid, what would the results have been with a stock colt? Better? Why the misses?
Is all that damn water leftover from the hurricane, or is Florida just that wet?
Ha! Glad it's not just me. I'm a road builder. Try as I may, I could only focus on the drainage issue and was calculating what it would cost to dry that place up. I'd be glad to do it if the OP pays for the equipment and material.
Surefire M500. It's been discontinued for I don't know how long. The rifle is Police trade. Wherever that came fromhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170928/3240c50db03ebefe4313e17381981403.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170928/9e9523f63dd5504b02e7760cacdc816e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170928/bb11f725ad9b2c59bdd6e2f099888fea.jpg
Sent from my XT1650 using TapatalkI like that. Too bad.
jerrysimons
09-28-17, 21:33
I read the title as Masturbation of the AR15 Owner. What is wrong with me..
This is hilariously on point though for many of our internet AR activities :sarcastic:
I like that. Too bad.Google is your friend! I'm sure there are plenty on eBay and other secondary markets
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I read the title as Masturbation of the AR15 Owner. What is wrong with me..
Could be you misread it because your going blind. The Nuns always said it would make you go blind. That and hairy palms.
To answer the OP's question, nothing but be a little more comfortable. Like previous posters, I have long arms and red dots bloom.
Unless you're reducing the reliability, add, build, or buy what you want. Get proficient. Shoot it. Get it hot and dirty. Make sure it works before you bet your life on it or recommend it to others.
I could have bought my wife a base line 4 runner. We ended up with a 4wd with the xp package. The plain one would have made her daily 10 mile round trip to work and back.
BuzzinSATX
09-28-17, 22:35
Recently I've realized three truths with respect to guns:
1) The AR15 platform will do 99% of what I need a rifle to ever do.
2) A properly inspected and zeroed Colt 6920 will do 99% of what I need an AR15 to ever do.
2) An AR15 setup for the remaining 1% is going to suck at the other 99%
I just want to stimulate discussion on, and learn from the forum, which parts are for show, which provide tangible benefit, and how to tell if it's worth it.
Hey, you found your zen...you are at peace in the quest for the perfect AR. Congratulations.
So, has this epiphany of simplicity overtaken all aspects of your life, or just firearms?
For example...
Are you now driving a mid level Ford Fusion, since that car would meet 99% of your transportation needs..
Are you wearing a $20 Walmart digital watch, that would meet all your chronological needs...
How about your clothes? Catching the solid bargains at the big box retailers on their decent store brands?
Or electronics? Or tools? Or......
Personally, i don't care what works for 99% of the AR shooters. This is America...we aren't in some third world shithole where we all rock out with the same hand-me-down AK's. I want to spend $500 or $3000 on an AR, I guess that's my right as long as I have the cash to do it.
So, I'll concede a Colt 6920 or equivalent works for most...no doubt. But so would a low mileage 2012 Chevy Malibu...so what's your point?
And as far as what's show and what provides benefit...who's to say but the shooter? A older guy with older eyes may want that 1-8 scope over iron sights or a red dot. A guy who keeps yodel dogs and lions off his livestock in WY might want the 18" over the 14.5 for longer shots...
I gun to rule them all?.....maybe...I don't know...help me achieve this enlightenment of which you speak...
ColtSeavers
09-28-17, 22:50
Once upon a time I posted here that ideally an AR gun owner should have three builds to cover everything.
An 18"+ rifle gas scoped AR that has 10x somewhere in it's magnification range SPR-ish build.
A 16" mid gas LPV/LPFixed below 10x optic for about every/anything general purpose build.
A 10.3"~12.5" carbine gas SBR/Pistol with RDS/1x Prism scope/Irons because build.
The dirty truth is that a 10.3"~11.5" SBR/Pistol with RDS/1x Prism scope/LPV will do everything you should realistically be using 5.56 for out to 300~400yds.
It's been hit on the head before in this thread: without SBRs and cans under the perview of the NFA, we'd all be running around with ~11.5" suppressed ARs for alleged/keyboard/living room "social" work.
nightchief
09-28-17, 23:21
Are you now driving a mid level Ford Fusion, since that car would meet 99% of your transportation needs..
Yes! A red one...So I can afford more 6920's and ammo and training! ;)
This is America...we aren't in some third world shithole where we all rock out with the same hand-me-down AK's.
Right on!
In all seriousness, I like the 11.5 w/ suppressor for defense in the home, but I've certainly come around to the less is more approach to firearms in general. I'm not a fan of the FSP on a carbine gas barrel, as like to have my support hand under the gas block or slightly forward of it, though the Magpul SL hand guard allows one to get the support hand under it. My wife is a different story, she has shorter arms and wants a light weight rifle she can manage. So, the "get a Colt 6920" (or equivalent) mantra certainly makes sense. My 16" BCM mid with FSP is a great rifle, and I forgot how great until I started shooting it again. I like its all around utility.
Hammer_Man
09-29-17, 00:06
In all honesty I'm OK with people spending their money on whatever gun, and gun doo-dad they want. If in the end all the pink anodized charging handles, and skeletonized receivers help keep this industry alive I'm all for it.
Once upon a time I posted here that ideally an AR gun owner should have three builds to cover everything.
An 18"+ rifle gas scoped AR that has 10x somewhere in it's magnification range SPR-ish build.
A 16" mid gas LPV/LPFixed below 10x optic for about every/anything general purpose build.
A 10.3"~12.5" carbine gas SBR/Pistol with RDS/1x Prism scope/Irons because build.
The dirty truth is that a 10.3"~11.5" SBR/Pistol with RDS/1x Prism scope/LPV will do everything you should realistically be using 5.56 for out to 300~400yds.
I can appreciate what the OP is saying but my AR world basically comes down to a version of the above, 16" precision gun with 2.5-10, 12.5" SBR with a 1-6 and 10.5" with an Aimpoint H1 that currently sits in a pistol configuration while I try to work up the motivation to SBR another lower. Took me a few years to figure it all out and get to where I am now but I don't see any major changes in the near future because what I have works from 0-700 yards.
Everyone has to find what works for them and chopping and changing to the latest whizbang parts makes people happy and keeps Americans gainfully employed!
For me, to clarify my earlier statement. If you are carrying a long gun around a lot like a "ranch rifle" type of tool, you choose lighter and handier. You just do. For utility if nothing else. Since that by default becomes your third arm because you shoot it every single day, it then becomes your hunter, defender, etc as well.
Unless you are doing something "special". For extreme examples, see bird or dangerous game hunting. I'm not shooting a Cape Buffalo at knife fight range with a 5.56.
I believe this is where Euro is on this. I doubt he cares two shits about how we spend our money. It's how I took his post, and I related to it that way as well.
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
grizzlyblake
09-29-17, 04:39
It's been hit on the head before in this thread: without SBRs and cans under the perview of the NFA, we'd all be running around with ~11.5" suppressed ARs for alleged/keyboard/living room "social" work.
Then there's the whole unfortunate statistic that shows how we are exponentially more likely to need our carry pistols in a confrontation out and about than we are to need to defend the house with any of these AR configurations. Those that live in the hood not withstanding.
So distilling further could get us down to one Mossberg 500 or 870 for the house, and one Glock 19 for a carry piece, and spend all this saved money not spent on AR's on ammo and training for the pistol.
Heck, eventually we could just distill down to one night-sighted Glock 19 for the use case of 10% home defense and 90% street defense.
After that I guess we get down to rolls of quarters in socks or something.
People are not seeing the light.
This isn't about the niche rifle nor the "best" rifle. This is the 80% rifle for good, honest rifleman work.
No problems, get it done gun.
Not things you never use, not a "clone", and not a contest.
50 years ago, this concept was bleeding edge and now the only gun you would need is affordable, quality, and ready for shooting.
There's a rennaissance waiting....
BuzzinSATX
09-29-17, 05:05
For me, to clarify my earlier statement. If you are carrying a long gun around a lot like a "ranch rifle" type of tool, you choose lighter and handier. You just do. For utility if nothing else. Since that by default becomes your third arm because you shoot it every single day, it then becomes your hunter, defender, etc as well....
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
Sure, and I agree...the whole "beware the guy who owns one gun" analogy. If course, that gun could be a lever action 30-30, bolt action .308 Scout, and in the South, lots get by with just a pump 12 gauge. I get that.
There is also a saying..."if your only tool is a hammer, all your problems look like nails".
My original and fav AR is a DDM4V2, the most basic gun Daniel Def built. It has a PRO, a light, and a sling. No internal mods. I get how well it works and shoots fine now after 10k rounds and the gritty trigger is smoothed out.
But to each their own. All I'm saying...
BTW, love your Clint quote! I am a big fan of that guy!
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BuzzinSATX
09-29-17, 05:12
Yes! A red one...So I can afford more 6920's and ammo and training! ;)
LOL! And it's a step above my gray Ford Focus! Which we also drive to save $. I get that Brother. And to be clear, I have no issue with whatever anyone is driving. My garage ain't no "Jay Leno" showplace, for sure.
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BuzzinSATX
09-29-17, 05:47
People are not seeing the light.
This isn't about the niche rifle nor the "best" rifle. This is the 80% rifle for good, honest rifleman work.
No problems, get it done gun.
Not things you never use, not a "clone", and not a contest.
50 years ago, this concept was bleeding edge and now the only gun you would need is affordable, quality, and ready for shooting.
There's a rennaissance waiting....
Maybe some, but I get it. At 54 years old and kids out of the house, my better half and I are really trying to cut back on the clutter of life and take a much more minimalist approach in a lot of ways, from clothes and furniture to eating and entertainment. Quality over quantity as it were. Simple beats complex these days for me, and gives room for experimentation, adaption, creativity, and focus.
Like Hank Jr said..."I got a shotgun, a rifle, and a four wheel drive, and a county boy can survive...".
But we live in a diverse place. The urban dweller's perfect AR might be an 11" SBR or pistol with a RDS, where the guy living out west and hunting deer and predators would probably do better with an 18" SPR with a 1-8 or 3-9 optic.
So I definitely get the "simplify" concept, my point is that the right gun for a given person isn't necessarily the same one for all persons.
I keep trying to go back to basic rifles ala 6920. Then I need a place to mount a light where I can run the gun the same with either shoulder. Then I need a place to run my laser so I can use head-mounted NODs. Then it's nice to be able to mount a bipod for load testing and checking zero.
My 99% gun turns into either three guns or one heavy gun.
Frankly, shooting 600+ yards sucks with irons or a RDS. So does hunting out to 300.
So I have a 14.5" upper with a Vortex Razor HD 1-6x, Geissele rail, and Fury. This rifle shoots sub-MOA and I've managed first-round hits on steel over 700 yards.
Then I have a 11.5" upper, SOCOM suppressor, Dbal, Aimpoint Micro, and Surefire Scout. This setup works great under NODs. I've popped many varmints in the dark and the rifle works well 0-300 in the day.
I really don't want to lose my hearing if I am forced to do use my rifle in the house.
This setup covers 100% of what I need it to do. No 90%, no 99%. 100%. It doesn't complete suck at 90% with either upper.
I've got the mostly stock 6920s. I always find my grip crammed if trying to mount a light to the hand guard. My support hand always ends up too close to the gas block, though the new SL hand guards help with that.
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Hammer_Man
09-29-17, 08:35
So I definitely get the "simplify" concept, my point is that the right gun for a given person isn't necessarily the same one for all persons.
I think you hit the nail on the head. A Colt LE6920 is a fine weapon, but for most shooters a Ruger 556, PSA, Bushmaster, Core15, Delton, etc, are more than adequate. Let's face it, most AR owners these days are not operating in the mountains of Afghanistan, or the streets of Mosul. Most AR owners are not Delta Force, Navy SEALs, Green Berets, SWAT officers, or even security guards. Most AR owners are hobbyists. They build/buy a gun because that is what is cool right now, and they take it to a range maybe twice a year to punch tiny holes in sheets of paper. Do most shooters need a suppressed SBR with a laser designator, IR illuminator, white light, and a whiz bang optic? No, of course not. Do most shooters need to spend $800 - $900 on an LE6920, when they can save themselves around 200 bucks buying something else? They can then spend that saved money on ammo, and range time correct? The whole idea that one particular rifle is all we will ever need is rather silly, because at the end of the day we all have different needs. And if we're going to rely on an outside opinion to determine what we need, I'm willing to be most of us don't really need any guns at all.
I think a lot of people are focusing too much on the specifics of a 6920, rather than the larger point that is being made. And that point is actually at the heart of what M4C is all about, right?
I don't think OP was talking about the 1% of guys who do mission specific, purpose driven high end builds, know what they are doing, know how to properly assemble, and actually shoot a lot and shoot well. What I think the point is, is that people are spending a lot of time and money on gear, but most of them are not really sure why, and are not really able to get the benefits of that gear.
If most people bought basic high quality 16" carbines, and spent more time shooting, training, etc. they would get a lot more out of their carbines than doing the reverse....hasn't this pretty much always been the mission statement around here?
A local gun shop had a trailer stolen with the boxes from their inventory stolen (just the boxes were in it). So they have beaucoup guns reduced for sale this Saturday; they are brand new but don't have the boxes. A regular 6920 for $625, a Magpul 6920 for $600, a 6970 for $600, M1A's between $1025-$1100. If I hadn't just spent a buttload on a new build I'd be all over it. PM me if you want their contact info.
I think a lot of people are focusing too much on the specifics of a 6920, rather than the larger point that is being made. And that point is actually at the heart of what M4C is all about, right?
I don't think OP was talking about the 1% of guys who do mission specific, purpose driven high end builds, know what they are doing, know how to properly assemble, and actually shoot a lot and shoot well. What I think the point is, is that people are spending a lot of time and money on gear, but most of them are not really sure why, and are not really able to get the benefits of that gear.
If most people bought basic high quality 16" carbines, and spent more time shooting, training, etc. they would get a lot more out of their carbines than doing the reverse....hasn't this pretty much always been the mission statement around here?
Used to be. The last few years it's been more color-filled, cool-guy insta-book stuff.
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Sure, and I agree...the whole "beware the guy who owns one gun" analogy. If course, that gun could be a lever action 30-30, bolt action .308 Scout, and in the South, lots get by with just a pump 12 gauge. I get that.
There is also a saying..."if your only tool is a hammer, all your problems look like nails".
My original and fav AR is a DDM4V2, the most basic gun Daniel Def built. It has a PRO, a light, and a sling. No internal mods. I get how well it works and shoots fine now after 10k rounds and the gritty trigger is smoothed out.
But to each their own. All I'm saying...
BTW, love your Clint quote! I am a big fan of that guy!
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Yeah I gotcha bro...just wanted to clarify where I was.
And Clint IS pretty cool. His mind seems to spin like an open clutch.
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
And if we're going to rely on an outside opinion to determine what we need, I'm willing to be most of us don't really need any guns at all.
Wow. You, sir, win the internet for the day.
BuzzinSATX
09-29-17, 11:49
And Clint IS pretty cool. His mind seems to spin like an open clutch.
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
Can you imagine taking a carbine class where the two main instructors were Clint Smith and Pat Mac? Lol! That would be a HOOT!
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Grandma's_Boy
09-29-17, 13:45
Could be you misread it because your going blind. The Nuns always said it would make you go blind. That and hairy palms.
I read the same, thought I was the only one going blind... no seriously not too far off from being legally blind.
Some good points posted in this thread that make me reflect on my own priorities. I was an infantryman and later a contractor in a past life. My personal firearms priorities during those periods involved having something similar to what I was issued in order to support related proficiency whenever I was not deployed, and to be set for HD and concealed carry.
Once I left those lines of work, I really should have spent some time thinking hard about who I wanted to be as a shooter going forward. Instead I put myself into “analysis paralysis” concerning the latest weapons development trends, and perceived needs/wants. There is not a doubt in my mind I would be a more proficient shooter keeping it simple and focusing more on training than chasing various pinnacles of weapons, calibers, and optics.
I recently cut down my rifle inventory to a single very versatile SBR with a LPV, sling, light, and suppressor. Now I need to stay disciplined whenever I “just want to try out a concept,” or add a new capability with limited realistic utility, and just train.
I think a lot of people are focusing too much on the specifics of a 6920, rather than the larger point that is being made. And that point is actually at the heart of what M4C is all about, right?
I don't think OP was talking about the 1% of guys who do mission specific, purpose driven high end builds, know what they are doing, know how to properly assemble, and actually shoot a lot and shoot well. What I think the point is, is that people are spending a lot of time and money on gear, but most of them are not really sure why, and are not really able to get the benefits of that gear.
If most people bought basic high quality 16" carbines, and spent more time shooting, training, etc. they would get a lot more out of their carbines than doing the reverse....hasn't this pretty much always been the mission statement around here?
Yes, but I was under the impression everybody here knew that. Preaching to the choir and all that. Thing is, we aren't "most gun owners". A lot, if not most of the people here, do in fact spend much more time and money on training and ammo than on guns or accessories. And to that point, ammo can be a waste money as well. Dry fire is the most important practice - imo.
The m4 being a good do-all rifle is nothing new. Even the government figured that out.
Can you imagine taking a carbine class where the two main instructors were Clint Smith and Pat Mac? Lol! That would be a HOOT!
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It would be intense lol
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
Can you imagine taking a carbine class where the two main instructors were Clint Smith and Pat Mac? Lol! That would be a HOOT!
I don't know Mac, but I can say that spending time with Clint is enjoyable. Dinner time is lively.
Dist. Expert 26
09-29-17, 19:08
I know a lot of people who obsess over their guns, always modifying or trying some new accessory. Most of them can't shoot to save their life.
I don't have a 6920. Never owned one, don't really want to. I built one rifle exactly the way I wanted it from the ground up, and for me, it works better in every way. I can shoot it faster and more accurately than any other rifle I've handled.
I can see the point of the OP, but nobody should write off custom guns entirely.
For me, it's not about custom or stock. It's about the configuration. A basic 16" carbine, regardless of stock, grip, handguard or barrel, is going to do what any other 16" carbine is going to do. More than anything else, what will help that carbine do one job better than another, is what sights are put on it. And, a 16" carbine will do just about anything we want an AR to do.
That's why, when a newbie asks "What AR should I get?" I don't bother to ask what they want to do with it because right AR will almost always be a 16 inch carbine with the appropriate sights.
Shooterman017
09-29-17, 19:30
Euro,
Thoroughly enjoyed reading through the "Trying to kill my 6920" thread. As well as the SBR thread, and how you have included so much over-time input and how you came to the conclusions you have through making pew pew noises.
I have been hooked on a "universal" carbine idea since first deciding I was going to build one. My go-to, do everything carbine has an 8 year old DD 16" M4 profile barrel, URX3.1 that was installed by Boltcarrier onto a BCM4 upper and SD-C trigger. I stuck to Midwest Industries tubular-style, slick handguards at first, and eventually settled on the URX3.1 because of the length and lack of 3/6/9 rails (prior to KM and MLOK). It had mid to higher-powered magnification glass as a sort of SPR/Recce Rifle carbine hybrid (Bushy, IOR and others). Ended up with an old cheap Surefire 951, Atlas bipod, Vortex Viper 1-4x, offset MRDS, Magpul ACS-L with SAPR for better cheekweld, and in the last couple of years an AEM3 suppressor. It was heavy and complicated. I swore up down left and right I would not change anything on it, and it stayed set up as such for about 5 years.
In the last couple of months, I've gone to a Magpul MOE SL stock, DD fixed irons, can, and that's it. As accurate and capable as that carbine was set up with all the other stuff, I have a feeling it will be staying in it's current configuration for a while...I like it a whole lot more now, and guess it could be looked at as my 6920 now. I want to get an Arisaka 300 series light on it and maybe a tiny ACOG to keep from adding a ton of weight.
Still want to see your test article 6920 go skiing on the St Johns just because too...
Then there's the whole unfortunate statistic that shows how we are exponentially more likely to need our carry pistols in a confrontation out and about than we are to need to defend the house with any of these AR configurations. Those that live in the hood not withstanding.
So distilling further could get us down to one Mossberg 500 or 870 for the house, and one Glock 19 for a carry piece, and spend all this saved money not spent on AR's on ammo and training for the pistol.
Heck, eventually we could just distill down to one night-sighted Glock 19 for the use case of 10% home defense and 90% street defense.
After that I guess we get down to rolls of quarters in socks or something.
I don't really disagree.
Then there's the whole unfortunate statistic that shows how we are exponentially more likely to need our carry pistols in a confrontation out and about than we are to need to defend the house with any of these AR configurations. Those that live in the hood not withstanding.
So distilling further could get us down to one Mossberg 500 or 870 for the house, and one Glock 19 for a carry piece, and spend all this saved money not spent on AR's on ammo and training for the pistol.
Heck, eventually we could just distill down to one night-sighted Glock 19 for the use case of 10% home defense and 90% street defense.
After that I guess we get down to rolls of quarters in socks or something.
Your duty as an American citizen is to be proficient with arms necessary to fight enemies, foreign and domestic. The AR-15, today's musket, is an absolute necessity, and every able-bodied male has a duty to possess, and be proficient with, an AR-15.
Your duty as an American citizen is to be proficient with arms necessary to fight enemies, foreign and domestic. The AR-15, today's musket, is an absolute necessity, and every able-bodied male has a duty to possess, and be proficient with, an AR-15.
Have you ever been to an Appleseed Shoot? Pretty much the core right there, 'a Nation of Riflemen'
They are fun, even if you are an accomplished shooter. I say that because I've been lucky to have instructors/honchos that could flat tell the 3 strikes of the match story.
Someone mentioned the saying: "if you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." I think what this thread is trying to address is more along the lines of: given the potential range of problems, what one tool solves the broadest segment of them adequately.
It might be a hammer (or a 6920), but we should always start with the problem set that needs to be addressed. Great reading and food for thought in here.
Someone mentioned the saying: "if you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." I think what this thread is trying to address is more along the lines of: given the potential range of problems, what one tool solves the broadest segment of them adequately.
It might be a hammer (or a 6920), but we should always start with the problem set that needs to be addressed. Great reading and food for thought in here.
Even our military has that figured out. I don't think there has been a dilution that it was something else. However, even our military has specialty tools used in conjunction with the basic infantry rifles. For instance, the SPR. A basic 6920 does a poor job of this role. But a rifle more like Colt Trooper or a recce rifle can do a more than adequate job of both roles.
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vicious_cb
09-30-17, 15:48
I finally had the time to read this thread. And I have to say a thread like this is exactly what this forum NEEDS right about now. The fact that there are people in this very thread who still dont get should be sounding alarm bells. People are still holding on to this notion that having a 13" MLOK rail somehow makes them deadlier with the rifle highlight how deluded we've become with consumer culture and marketing. People just need to go out and shoot more.
The underlined makes a point I'd like to emphasize. This is largely an exercise in futility, although a great discussion. For the matured AR15 owner, there will be a 'standard' as you suggest, rather a point they started from and an end result.
As an example, I choose the slings I use based on what I feel works best from my experience. In this case I prefer the SOB B-sling because it is more ergonomic feeling FOR ME to work the adjustment from the front end of the rifle, rather than the rear. I learned that from using other slings and watching others use their slings.
The more matured AR owner should be more discriminating, modifying their rifle for their perceived needs, for example, does a home defense carbine need a sling? There really isn't an absolute answer to that, just a personal solution, hopefully reached after critical thought.
Currently I've outrun my supply trains, daughter in college, a couple motorcycles that need tires, but, after some thought, in a couple months if the prices for the Colts are in the neighborhood of where they are now, I'll take Beat Trash's advice and start socking up for kids and grandkids.
You know, good point on slings. I seldom use them. Hump to a tree stand and unsnap it. Just can't get comfortable and never ever used one with hunting guns.
But I grew up bird hunting as well, so I'm used to toting sans sling.
"I've just got like, this 5.56 okay? And it's 55 grain ball. And everybody I've ever seen shot with it, it dicks them up."
---Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch
I finally had the time to read this thread. And I have to say a thread like this is exactly what this forum NEEDS right about now. The fact that there are people in this very thread who still dont get should be sounding alarm bells. People are still holding on to this notion that having a 13" MLOK rail somehow makes them deadlier with the rifle highlight how deluded we've become with consumer culture and marketing. People just need to go out and shoot more.
So you really think having a light you can control from both sides isn't an advantage? Or a laser that holds zero is a bad thing? What was it they asked forest gump?
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I finally had the time to read this thread. And I have to say a thread like this is exactly what this forum NEEDS right about now. The fact that there are people in this very thread who still dont get should be sounding alarm bells
There is a constant glut in the feed of stupidity to the masses.
A thread was sent to me that involved the bottom of the barrel slapped together components for a "review". The reviews gushed the usefulness of airsoft parts while installing optics that were so low they were blocked by the BUIS. The review was praised by people who were too ignorant to understand the lack of credibility of the person behind the trigger. The old saying of garbage in, garbage out comes to mind.
So you really think having a light you can control from both sides isn't an advantage? Or a laser that holds zero is a bad thing? What was it they asked forest gump?
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Or faster times on a shot timer. Here I thought this was a performance based forum... but apparently this is the new "good enough forum"? Lol. A base colt is a great gun, and yes, people need to learn to use the gun... but acting like it's the end game for EVERYONE is rediculous. Some of us demand more of our equipment than "good enough".
Yes, a rail and vfg do make me more effective because I get on target faster with more accurate follow ups. Oddly enough competition and military agree since most of the top performers are not using stock m4 handguards, but extended ones.
BuzzinSATX
09-30-17, 21:04
I finally had the time to read this thread. And I have to say a thread like this is exactly what this forum NEEDS right about now. The fact that there are people in this very thread who still dont get should be sounding alarm bells. People are still holding on to this notion that having a 13" MLOK rail somehow makes them deadlier with the rifle highlight how deluded we've become with consumer culture and marketing. People just need to go out and shoot more.
LOL! Kinda dramatic, eh?
The forum needs this thread?
Alarm bell sounding?
You gonna issue a tech order and pull a no-notice IG inspection soon?
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vicious_cb
09-30-17, 22:21
So you really think having a light you can control from both sides isn't an advantage? Or a laser that holds zero is a bad thing? What was it they asked forest gump?
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Im not sure how having a 7" delta ring attached handguard precludes you from operating a light from each side. :confused: If you want to attach a laser onto your rifle you should probably exclude 95% of the handguards on the market since they are no where stiff enough to prevent flexing the rail when placed against a barricade. That lightweight fad has a price.
Or faster times on a shot timer. Here I thought this was a performance based forum... but apparently this is the new "good enough forum"? Lol. A base colt is a great gun, and yes, people need to learn to use the gun... but acting like it's the end game for EVERYONE is rediculous. Some of us demand more of our equipment than "good enough".
Yes, a rail and vfg do make me more effective because I get on target faster with more accurate follow ups. Oddly enough competition and military agree since most of the top performers are not using stock m4 handguards, but extended ones.
Are people even at a level where they can see an advantage? If you cant pull a sub .25 sec split time, Im sorry but its not the handguard and VFG thats hold you back(not talking at you specifically). That kind of justification is why people buy shit they dont need because "top special forces" and "top competitors use it", its all marketing man.
The mistake people make is that somehow a more comfortable feeling rifle = being deadlier with said rifle. Thats not always the case. Im not going to fool myself, I buy $300 handguards, stainless steel precision barrels, fancy NP3 coated bolts because tricking out a rifle is fun and cool. When in reality can I take out the 16" carbine gas with plastic handguards and I can do the exact same shit from 0-300m that I can do with a $2000 build with little to no loss in performance. Lets be real folks we are spending 100's of dollars for a negligible 1% increase in performance. Ask yourself, if you arent kicking down doors in the predawn hours with NODs and lasers do you really need that $300+ geiseele rail?
The point that this thread is trying to make is that a basic 6920 like rifle does WORK. It literally exceeds the requirements for a fighting rifle for 99% of people.
LOL! Kinda dramatic, eh?
The forum needs this thread?
Alarm bell sounding?
You gonna issue a tech order and pull a no-notice IG inspection soon?
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Maybe you think we need more "Which rail system do you prefer?" or "What have you done to your rifle today?" threads.
The greatest shock to me is that it took this long for hurt feelings and insulting comments.
The term "rigid thinking" comes to mind at times for some posts and posters.
Mr. Goodtimes
09-30-17, 23:04
This is the best thread I've seen on M4c in probably 5 years.
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I finally had the time to read this thread. And I have to say a thread like this is exactly what this forum NEEDS right about now. The fact that there are people in this very thread who still dont get should be sounding alarm bells. People are still holding on to this notion that having a 13" MLOK rail somehow makes them deadlier with the rifle highlight how deluded we've become with consumer culture and marketing. People just need to go out and shoot more.
So you really think having a light you can control from both sides isn't an advantage? Or a laser that holds zero is a bad thing? What was it they asked forest gump?
Adding a sling, optic, light or laser to a basic 16" carbine doesn't change it into something else. Same is true if a free float tube is added. Accuracy remains the same, velocity remains the same, reliability remains the same, handing remains the same (except when significant weight is added) and so on. All these types of add-ons do is configure the AR for a particular mission. A light doesn't prevent the shooter from taking a 600 yard shot and a laser doesn't keep anyone from kicking in doors and clearing rooms. Sticking to the idea of a basic carbine doesn't mean we cannot use lights, lasers, optics or slings, it means that maybe we don't need a 20" HBar to take a 600 yard shot, or a folding stock and a 7" barrel for house defense. It means that maybe a basic 16" carbine can be configured with sights, lights and lasers to do almost anything we need it to.
Middy vs carbine, MLok vs Keylok vs Picatinny- so what? Standard trigger vs Geissele vs Timney. Do we really need to? A2 grip vs Magpul vs BCM. What does it change? Aimpoint Micro vs 2.5-10 NF vs 1-8 Leupold. Now we're seeing a choice that has real impact.
I agree people should get out and shoot more. I agree that the basic 16" carbine is the starting point, but it can also be the final destination, even if it picks up a few useful accessories along the way
[QUOTE=vicious_cb;2540629]Im not sure how having a 7" delta ring attached handguard precludes you from operating a light from each side. [emoji782] If you want to attach a laser onto your rifle you should probably exclude 95% of the handguards on the market since they are no where stiff enough to prevent flexing the rail when placed against a barricade. That lightweight fad has a price.
Are people even at a level where they can see an advantage? If you cant pull a sub .25 sec split time, Im sorry but its not the handguard and VFG thats hold you back(not talking at you specifically). That kind of justification is why people buy shit they dont need because "top special forces" and "top competitors use it", its all marketing man.
The mistake people make is that somehow a more comfortable feeling rifle = being deadlier with said rifle. Thats not always the case. Im not going to fool myself, I buy $300 handguards, stainless steel precision barrels, fancy NP3 coated bolts because tricking out a rifle is fun and cool. When in reality can I take out the 16" carbine gas with plastic handguards and I can do the exact same shit from 0-300m that I can do with a $2000 build with little to no loss in performance. Lets be real folks we are spending 100's of dollars for a negligible 1% increase in performance. Ask yourself, if you arent kicking down doors in the predawn hours with NODs and lasers do you really need that $300+ geiseele rail?
The point that this thread is trying to make is that a basic 6920 like rifle does WORK. It literally exceeds the requirements for a fighting rifle for 99% of people.
Maybe you think we need more "Which rail system do you prefer?" or "What have you done to your rifle today?"
Many don't know the difference and can't take advantage. They want to look cool. But they aren't the end all be all. If you need more, you'll know it.
I know I need my laser to hold zero. I know the basic 6920 doesn't meet accuracy needs (perhaps wants?) at 600.
However, mediocrity isn't something to strive for. We are focused on not the adequate tool, but the best tools for the job. Things like rails, triggers, etc aren't stupid expensive. They are quite attainable. Meanwhile, the focus on "the chart" and barrel steels and bolt grading and the expense that comes with it doesn't necessarily reap benefit for the citizen shooter or even LE many times. Even members here probably don't reap the advantage of 4150 CMV over 4140.
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BuzzinSATX
10-01-17, 00:42
Maybe you think we need more "Which rail system do you prefer?" or "What have you done to your rifle today?" threads.
Maybe I do....
Or maybe I think folks who tell me what gun i should have based on their unsolicited opinion aren't much better than folks who tell me I don't need more than 7 rounds to kill a deer...
Adding a sling, optic, light or laser to a basic 16" carbine doesn't change it into something else. Same is true if a free float tube is added. Accuracy remains the same, velocity remains the same, reliability remains the same, handing remains the same (except when significant weight is added) and so on. All these types of add-ons do is configure the AR for a particular mission. A light doesn't prevent the shooter from taking a 600 yard shot and a laser doesn't keep anyone from kicking in doors and clearing rooms. Sticking to the idea of a basic carbine doesn't mean we cannot use lights, lasers, optics or slings, it means that maybe we don't need a 20" HBar to take a 600 yard shot, or a folding stock and a 7" barrel for house defense. It means that maybe a basic 16" carbine can be configured with sights, lights and lasers to do almost anything we need it to.
Middy vs carbine, MLok vs Keylok vs Picatinny- so what? Standard trigger vs Geissele vs Timney. Do we really need to? A2 grip vs Magpul vs BCM. What does it change? Aimpoint Micro vs 2.5-10 NF vs 1-8 Leupold. Now we're seeing a choice that has real impact.
I agree people should get out and shoot more. I agree that the basic 16" carbine is the starting point, but it can also be the final destination, even if it picks up a few useful accessories
This thread reminds me of when I was having more fun using your rifle when we were at Ken's house....
I think it's amazing that we cannot have a rational discussion about the AR. We have a weapon due to it's design is probably one of the most adaptable and modular weapons in the world. In some cases a caliber conversion is nothing more than manufacturing one or two new components and you're done.
Does a carbine like the 6920 perform? Absolutely it does. Is it the most OPTIMAL? Not always. Have we made improvements to the weapon to make it more user friendly? Yes. We now have ambidextrous controls, charging handles, better materials, in some cases better quality control, etc..
Can one put a light on a basic carbine? Yes, we can. In some cases that can cause shadowing of the barrel/FSB which leads us to find a better way or doing it.
Ultimately, it always comes down to what the person at the other end intends to do with it, and what their exact needs are. So I am not sure why we cannot accept that different rails, configurations, barrel lengths, etc.. came about because of different needs and requirements.
This thread reminds me of when I was having more fun using your rifle when we were at Ken's house....
...and this reminds me of how much fun I had shooting yours at the range in PA.
I chose the 14.5" SOCOM barrel based on your advice
The point that this thread is trying to make is that a basic 6920 like rifle does WORK. It literally exceeds the requirements for a fighting rifle for 99% of people.
You won't hear an argument from me on this.
I agree comfort=\=better. I don't know why people think that.
It has nothing to do with maturity as a shooter, it has everything to do with shooter requirements IMO.
I agree comfort=\=better. I don't know why people think that.
In plain english, what does this mean, please? Comfort is better? Comfort does not mean better?
Andy
BuzzinSATX
10-01-17, 08:42
The point that this thread is trying to make is that a basic 6920 like rifle does WORK. It literally exceeds the requirements for a fighting rifle for 99% of people.
.
Vicious,
First, no disagreements from me with your statement above. A quality basic patrol carbine works. Got it. Never really thought this point was in question from the start.
My point is the one size fits all is rarely the best choice in life for everyone. It is typically the minimum level of acceptable. Customization helps ergonomically. I have arthritis in my shoulders, beck, and hands. A vertical grip helps me significantly to control the muzzle of the rifle, and is much more comfortable when moving and shooting. Doesn't mean I think it's for everyone.
I'll go back to my vehicle analogy....a basic four door, small to mid size sedan with a heater and AC exceeds the requirements for daily transportation for large majority of people. Doesn't mean that's what we all choose to buy.
In plain english, what does this mean? Comfort is better? Comfort does not mean better?
Andy
Comfort does not mean better performance, it can, but it's not always the way it works. It seems most prevelant in the pistol world, but exists with rifles. For example: "Go to a gun shop and buy the most comfortable handgun".
Comfort does not mean better performance, it can, but it's not always the way it works. It seems most prevelant in the pistol world, but exists with rifles. For example: "Go to a gun shop and buy the most comfortable handgun".
Thanks
Andy
Outlander Systems
10-01-17, 09:05
Same here.
This is the best thread I've seen on M4c in probably 5 years.
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This has been a very interesting read. I am just glad that right now a person can buy a quality Colt LE6920 for the cost of a POS wanabe from just a few years ago. My latest Colt has a serial number of LE52xxxx, so Colt has had quite a while to figure out what works and what can be taken to a fight. I would be willing to bet that for most AR owners a stock LE6920 can shoot better than they can, add to that the reliability of the rifle, and you have a winner. How many manufactures out there have the Pedigree to evoke such confidence in their brand?
Rayrevolver
10-01-17, 11:08
Don't forget this is a journey. Even though I started my AR "training" by joining this site and reading, I still strayed from "the path."
Started with a 6920 clone in 2006, except it said LMT on the side. Had that 1 carbine only, did a handful of classes. Added a ACOG. Sold it. Then other carbines, red dots, scopes. Mistakes.
Multiple Noveskes. Life happens and the classes don't. Sometimes shooting time goes away.
11 years after my AR-15 journey started I am down to ONE single 5.56 AR these days. A 100% suppressed 11.5" with a light, sling, and a red dot. I have no need to shoot without a suppressor ever again. Which is why I am always looking for the lightest direct thread 5.56 can. Please pass the HPA!!!
To be fair, I have bought silly non-ARs recently, but for almost a decade I only owned ARs and probably shoot them as well as Euro (with his right arm cutoff). :cool:
Meanwhile, the focus on "the chart" and barrel steels and bolt grading and the expense that comes with it doesn't necessarily reap benefit for the citizen shooter or even LE many times. Even members here probably don't reap the advantage of 4150 CMV over 4140.
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Just wanted to bring this wisdom to light.
This is the best thread I've seen on M4c in probably 5 years.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAmen to this.
Euro you're a CPAing Bruce Wayne
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justin_247
10-01-17, 15:54
Meanwhile, the focus on "the chart" and barrel steels and bolt grading and the expense that comes with it doesn't necessarily reap benefit for the citizen shooter or even LE many times. Even members here probably don't reap the advantage of 4150 CMV over 4140.
I realize that bashing "The Chart" is now in vogue, despite the fact that the thread containing the original chart was once pinned on this very forum. It's easy to bash this when you take it out of its time and context.
"The Chart" served a great purpose: it educated people so that they knew that there's more to an AR than its appearance. People started asking more from companies, and brands left and right sought to improve their rifles, whether through materials or assembly or quality control processes, in order to meet the demand of more educated consumers.
Now, you can't really find a website anymore that doesn't advertise an AR's specs in pretty deep detail, especially in comparison to what you would have seen 10 years ago. Ultimately, the consumer is much better off now. Pretty much every manufacturer has improved in quality.
Some companies probably even went out of business because of "the chart"... Olympic Arms, anybody?
Say what you will about "The Chart," but it served a great purpose, and everybody who purchases an AR today benefits from Rob Sloyer's work.
vicious_cb
10-01-17, 16:02
Vicious,
First, no disagreements from me with your statement above. A quality basic patrol carbine works. Got it. Never really thought this point was in question from the start.
My point is the one size fits all is rarely the best choice in life for everyone. It is typically the minimum level of acceptable. Customization helps ergonomically. I have arthritis in my shoulders, beck, and hands. A vertical grip helps me significantly to control the muzzle of the rifle, and is much more comfortable when moving and shooting. Doesn't mean I think it's for everyone.
I'll go back to my vehicle analogy....a basic four door, small to mid size sedan with a heater and AC exceeds the requirements for daily transportation for large majority of people. Doesn't mean that's what we all choose to buy.
Don't get me wrong, I think customization is great. I have BCM GF grips and Magpul stocks on all my ARs because they make my rifle more comfortable. The point Im trying to make is that marketing is having people believe they need $300 MLOK handguards on their rifles, you can literally find Aimpoint PROs for that price. I have family members that bought $1600 Daniel Defense DDV7s with ****ing iron sights because that is what the market is pushing them to buy instead of getting a basic 6920 like rifle and buying an aimpoint pro and 1k of ammo. The advertising is having use believe that a 16" carbine length with plastic handguards are as obsolete as VHS when in reality those rifles can do WORK.
Im not telling anyone to buy anything. All Im saying is stop and think for a second, does this $2000+ tricked out AR really perform that much better than a stock 6920? I bet if you shoot enough you'll find they start to get pretty close in performance.
As I write this, Im probably going to pull the trigger on a $1650 hodge defense upper once it becomes available so dont think Im advocating everyone should just own stock 6920's. Its just my eyes are wide open with the fact that Im really not getting that much more capability with that Hodge gun than I am with a 6920.
I realize that bashing "The Chart" is now in vogue, despite the fact that the thread containing the original chart was once pinned on this very forum. It's easy to bash this when you take it out of its time and context.
"The Chart" served a great purpose: it educated people so that they knew that there's more to an AR than its appearance. People started asking more from companies, and brands left and right sought to improve their rifles, whether through materials or assembly or quality control processes, in order to meet the demand of more educated consumers.
Now, you can't really find a website anymore that doesn't advertise an AR's specs in pretty deep detail, especially in comparison to what you would have seen 10 years ago. Ultimately, the consumer is much better off now. Pretty much every manufacturer has improved in quality.
Some companies probably even went out of business because of "the chart"... Olympic Arms, anybody?
Say what you will about "The Chart," but it served a great purpose, and everybody who purchases an AR today benefits from Rob Sloyer's work.
Step out of here and mention the chart and see what happens. Majority of people don't care and often consider it a joke, which is why it was originally taken down
Also, most websites list vague specs.
Here's what one well known Aaron manufacturer writes about their specs
Caliber.......556
Lower......... Forged
Upper..........Forged
Barrel..........16in chrome moly HBAR 1:9
OA had issues
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Mr. Goodtimes
10-01-17, 16:22
The chart was, and I would say still is, a good resource. While it's not the end all be all authority on what's good and what's bad, it gave/gives new shooters a comparison between the common manufacturers, helping further the understanding of what they're getting. It used Colt as essentially what it is... a baseline.
Now obviously there are less tangible aspects of quality control that the chart is unable to quantify, however, it was a good start.
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I realize that bashing "The Chart" is now in vogue, despite the fact that the thread containing the original chart was once pinned on this very forum. It's easy to bash this when you take it out of its time and context.
"The Chart" served a great purpose: it educated people so that they knew that there's more to an AR than its appearance. People started asking more from companies, and brands left and right sought to improve their rifles, whether through materials or assembly or quality control processes, in order to meet the demand of more educated consumers.
Now, you can't really find a website anymore that doesn't advertise an AR's specs in pretty deep detail, especially in comparison to what you would have seen 10 years ago. Ultimately, the consumer is much better off now. Pretty much every manufacturer has improved in quality.
Some companies probably even went out of business because of "the chart"... Olympic Arms, anybody?
Say what you will about "The Chart," but it served a great purpose, and everybody who purchases an AR today benefits from Rob Sloyer's work.
I'm not in any way bashing the chart, merely pointing out that the thread's direction was about "needs" of the gun owner rather than what people use.
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Eurodriver
10-01-17, 19:07
Is all that damn water leftover from the hurricane, or is Florida just that wet?
Ha! Glad it's not just me. I'm a road builder. Try as I may, I could only focus on the drainage issue and was calculating what it would cost to dry that place up. I'd be glad to do it if the OP pays for the equipment and material.
Yes. That's how it looks from late June to mid-September every year, hurricane or not. Drainage is in the works.
Hey, you found your zen...you are at peace in the quest for the perfect AR. Congratulations.
Thank you.
So, has this epiphany of simplicity overtaken all aspects of your life, or just firearms?
Everything.
For example...
Are you now driving a mid level Ford Fusion, since that car would meet 99% of your transportation needs..
No. I have a Jeep Wrangler with a manual transmission, manual windows, manual door locks, no satellite navigation, plastic windows....
Are you wearing a $20 Walmart digital watch, that would meet all your chronological needs...
No. I have a cell phone that I use for time keeping. As you said yourself, "simplicity".
How about your clothes? Catching the solid bargains at the big box retailers on their decent store brands?
Yes.
Or electronics? Or tools? Or......
Personally, i don't care what works for 99% of the AR shooters. This is America...we aren't in some third world shithole where we all rock out with the same hand-me-down AK's. I want to spend $500 or $3000 on an AR, I guess that's my right as long as I have the cash to do it.
Not sure where I ever said someone couldn't, or even shouldn't, buy a $3000 AR15. But I have $20 anytime, anywhere that says I will outshoot you from 0-300 yards with my iron sighted Colt 6920 with whatever $3000 wondergun you want to show up with. Do you think I am willing to make that bet because I'm just an arrogant SOB, or because I've spent thousands of hours behind the trigger of a gun in austere environments and not playing Barbie with my AR15 collection every time this week's Rainier Arms email shows up?
So, I'll concede a Colt 6920 or equivalent works for most...no doubt. But so would a low mileage 2012 Chevy Malibu...so what's your point?
The car analogy doesn't work. I don't use a car to compete with anything. I can't see myself needing a 2012 Malibu to do anything of any significance, really. I can work with motorcycles though.
Let's call a Colt 6920 a....Honda CBR1000 motorcycle. The Honda CBR1000 is a top tier racing motorcycle with mirrors and lights, essentially. If you have a CBR1000 you can become the greatest rider of all time, because you have an amazing piece of machinery. You can, and arguably should, throw your leg over a CBR1000 and ride it bone stock because it has everything you will ever need. It will run reliably forever. It will require little maintenance. And it's all yours for around $13k.
But what do people do? Instead of just learning to ride the damn bike (shooting the gun) and reduce lap times (split times), they buy a slip on exhaust (Rail system), and aftermarket rear sets for "ergonomics" (furniture) and get a double bubble windscreen (Wonderbuffer ST-whatever) and at the end of the day the guy who kept riding the bike is still faster (shoots better) because he's out riding (shooting) instead of researching,
buying, installing, tuning, and looking for more upgrades.
What you and many others seem to be mistaking is that I am not saying that upgraded Ohlins shocks (a smoother trigger) or a Powercommander (SS Barrel) will fail to provide any tangible benefit to a rider (shooter). I'm simply saying that to truly benefit from those upgrades you would have to be on such a high level of performance that you already know why you need what you need. People on that level are not making threads asking "What rail system should I buy?" or, "What should my next AR be?"
There's a rennaissance waiting....
I hope so.
I think a lot of people are focusing too much on the specifics of a 6920, rather than the larger point that is being made.
Amen
And that point is actually at the heart of what M4C is all about, right?
I don't think OP was talking about the 1% of guys who do mission specific, purpose driven high end builds, know what they are doing, know how to properly assemble, and actually shoot a lot and shoot well. What I think the point is, is that people are spending a lot of time and money on gear, but most of them are not really sure why, and are not really able to get the benefits of that gear.
Amen
If most people bought basic high quality 16" carbines, and spent more time shooting, training, etc. they would get a lot more out of their carbines than doing the reverse....hasn't this pretty much always been the mission statement around here?
Amen. I'm unsure exactly what the fuss is about
Used to be. The last few years it's been more color-filled, cool-guy insta-book stuff.
Sure seems like it.
I know a lot of people who obsess over their guns, always modifying or trying some new accessory. Most of them can't shoot to save their life.
This.
Euro,
Thoroughly enjoyed reading through the "Trying to kill my 6920" thread. As well as the SBR thread, and how you have included so much over-time input and how you came to the conclusions you have through making pew pew noises.
Haha. That was a great thread. My 6920 is still with Colt being repaired after really taking a beating. I can't wait to get it back and share details of its misfortune.
In the last couple of months, I've gone to a Magpul MOE SL stock, DD fixed irons, can, and that's it. As accurate and capable as that carbine was set up with all the other stuff, I have a feeling it will be staying in it's current configuration for a while...I like it a whole lot more now, and guess it could be looked at as my 6920 now. I want to get an Arisaka 300 series light on it and maybe a tiny ACOG to keep from adding a ton of weight.
That sounds like the ideal carbine to me.
Still want to see your test article 6920 go skiing on the St Johns just because too...
Definitely more to come when it comes back...
Your duty as an American citizen is to be proficient with arms necessary to fight enemies, foreign and domestic. The AR-15, today's musket, is an absolute necessity, and every able-bodied male has a duty to possess, and be proficient with, an AR-15.
I like this quote.
I finally had the time to read this thread. And I have to say a thread like this is exactly what this forum NEEDS right about now. The fact that there are people in this very thread who still dont get should be sounding alarm bells. People are still holding on to this notion that having a 13" MLOK rail somehow makes them deadlier with the rifle highlight how deluded we've become with consumer culture and marketing. People just need to go out and shoot more.
The fact that there are no less than 15 people arguing about the strength of the KMR rail system is baffling. Let's see someone drive over their shit with a truck and put their money where their mouth is. I'm trying to find a post from a well known member here slamming me for arguing that plastic handguards can take a beating. I'd love to resurrect that thread with a video of my 5000lb SUV running them over 5 or 6 times.
https://i.imgur.com/ta0Z5Lm.jpg
Realistically how much time do we spend shooting at night? Or in shoot houses?
At least 2-3x a month. I have an open invite extended to vetted M4C members who aren't retards if they are ever in FL and want to come. All you need is:
1) Quality helmet mounted NV
2) A weapon
3) A way to aim #2 using #1
4) Ammo
5) Lots...and lots...and lots...of bug spray.
ETA: This was the link I was trying to post in the OP. Apparently it didn't work. To those saying that I am implying no one needs anything more than a Colt 6920 - I counter with this video. Of course a Colt 6920 can't do this, but as I was saying, a Colt 6920 can do a whole heck of a lot more things proficiently than this rifle can. Also, if anyone needs any further proof that the internet is simply a giant group-think and that actually getting out and shooting the gun will always be more beneficial than debating on parts to buy, I submit to you this thread for your amusement. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?179387-600-yard-steel-shooting-with-5-56-9-2-2017-Sub-MOA-1000-(lol-but-for-real))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAzV7X5EPbc
This is the same type of discussion around sportbikes when I used to ride. A 10 year old CBR600rr has more performance than 95% of the street riders can handle, so money is better spent on leathers and tires instead of pipes and chips. But, it's your money so whatever floats your boat is how I feel.
I wasn't calling you out on night shooting. Sorry if it came across that way. I was expanding the scope of "shoot the gun" to include at least some low light.
justin_247
10-01-17, 20:30
I'm not in any way bashing the chart, merely pointing out that the thread's direction was about "needs" of the gun owner rather than what people use.
Gotcha.
I think you hit the nail on the head. A Colt LE6920 is a fine weapon, but for most shooters a Ruger 556, PSA, Bushmaster, Core15, Delton, etc, are more than adequate. .
Actually, no. I have been in classes and seen those guns, with the exception of the Ruger, go down. I've not been ina class with a Ruger. One of the points of buying a 6920 is because it is built to a spec and it works and has proven itself in heavy use. Considering the affordable price of the 6920, it makes sense to buy the reliability and durability of the 6920.
I can dig it. This is pretty much the "buy a g19 and a few cases of ammo" thread. I missed the scope of the op apparently.
Euro - you should start posting videos of drills or just drills and time - start a thread to set baselines people can aim for. Once you have a bunch of people posting times, other people can get a feel for where they stand.
We have the 25 yd challenge thread in the pistol forum, something like that would be cool for rifles. I'll try to remember to post something next time I get out.
BuzzinSATX
10-01-17, 21:58
Gotta say, post 127 was a helluva multi-reply by the OP. Thanks.
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Hammer_Man
10-02-17, 00:16
I think it's amazing that we cannot have a rational discussion about the AR. We have a weapon due to it's design is probably one of the most adaptable and modular weapons in the world. In some cases a caliber conversion is nothing more than manufacturing one or two new components and you're done.
Does a carbine like the 6920 perform? Absolutely it does. Is it the most OPTIMAL? Not always. Have we made improvements to the weapon to make it more user friendly? Yes. We now have ambidextrous controls, charging handles, better materials, in some cases better quality control, etc..
Can one put a light on a basic carbine? Yes, we can. In some cases that can cause shadowing of the barrel/FSB which leads us to find a better way or doing it.
Ultimately, it always comes down to what the person at the other end intends to do with it, and what their exact needs are. So I am not sure why we cannot accept that different rails, configurations, barrel lengths, etc.. came about because of different needs and requirements.
I couldn't agree more. Time and technology move on.
Hammer_Man
10-02-17, 00:21
Actually, no. I have been in classes and seen those guns, with the exception of the Ruger, go down. I've not been ina class with a Ruger. One of the points of buying a 6920 is because it is built to a spec and it works and has proven itself in heavy use. Considering the affordable price of the 6920, it makes sense to buy the reliability and durability of the 6920.
I think you missed the point of my reply. I'm willing to bet most AR15 owners will never take their weapon to a carbine course. Like I said, most take it out of the closet/safe twice a year to punch tiny holes in pieces of paper.
I have $20 anytime, anywhere that says I will outshoot you from 0-300 yards with my iron sighted Colt 6920 with whatever $3000 wondergun you want to show up with. Do you think I am willing to make that bet because I'm just an arrogant SOB, or because I've spent thousands of hours behind the trigger of a gun in austere environments and not playing Barbie with my AR15 collection every time this week's Rainier Arms email shows up?
If I lived closer to Florida, I'd take you up on that bet, although I don't have a $3k Wunder Schutzen (unless we're also counting the cost of the optic). Not because I think you're wrong, or that I'd win the bet (let's just say it'd be cheaper for me just to send that $20 in the mail), but because it's a great excuse to go shooting. I could bring my Colt SOCOM and show you how it's old, slow, fast guys get it done (assuming I don't collapse from all that running)
Eurodriver
10-02-17, 05:32
If I lived closer to Florida, I'd take you up on that bet, although I don't have a $3k Wunder Schutzen (unless we're also counting the cost of the optic). Not because I think you're wrong, or that I'd win the bet (let's just say it'd be cheaper for me just to send that $20 in the mail), but because it's a great excuse to go shooting. I could bring my Colt SOCOM and show you how it's old, slow, fast guys get it done (assuming I don't collapse from all that running)
I’m really not as confrontational as my posts suggest in real life. I’d be happy to shoot with you anytime, Mist. Wager or not :) I just like a good competition that involves something other than who has more spending money for toys. I’m not an expert shooter by any means and regularly get my clock cleaned; as an example, I came in third at a Florida Defensive carbine shoot out of ~30 shooters. Sounds great until you realize the guy that won, Failure2Stop, scored a full 20% better than even I did. That is a good shooter. And it’s because he is easily out there 2x a week. Every week. He does run a seriously tricked out KAC, but the guy that came in second showed up with an iron sighted spray painted A4.
It’s the Indian, not the arrow.
I can dig it. This is pretty much the "buy a g19 and a few cases of ammo" thread. I missed the scope of the op apparently.
Correct.
Euro - you should start posting videos of drills or just drills and time - start a thread to set baselines people can aim for. Once you have a bunch of people posting times, other people can get a feel for where they stand.
We have the 25 yd challenge thread in the pistol forum, something like that would be cool for rifles. I'll try to remember to post something next time I get out.
I've considered that. I'm just not artistic enough to make the shots (video) look good, or run any drills that are meaningful enough to be posted. All one has to do to see rockstar times is get on youtube and look at 1-5 drills and such. The reason I posted the video in the OP is because we had a drone that day and got to get actual good footage. If I recorded it normally you'd just see some guy running in the swamp getting farther and farther away :) Maybe a head-mounted GoPro video...
I'm open to any ideas.
Fordtough25
10-02-17, 07:41
I’m really not as confrontational as my posts suggest in real life. I’d be happy to shoot with you anytime, Mist. Wager or not :) I just like a good competition that involves something other than who has more spending money for toys. I’m not an expert shooter by any means and regularly get my clock cleaned; as an example, I came in third at a Florida Defensive carbine shoot out of ~30 shooters. Sounds great until you realize the guy that won, Failure2Stop, scored a full 20% better than even I did. That is a good shooter. And it’s because he is easily out there 2x a week. Every week. He does run a seriously tricked out KAC, but the guy that came in second showed up with an iron sighted spray painted A4.
It’s the Indian, not the arrow.
I've considered that. I'm just not artistic enough to make the shots (video) look good, or run any drills that are meaningful enough to be posted. All one has to do to see rockstar times is get on youtube and look at 1-5 drills and such. The reason I posted the video in the OP is because we had a drone that day and got to get actual good footage. If I recorded it normally you'd just see some guy running in the swamp getting farther and farther away :) Maybe a head-mounted GoPro video...
I'm open to any ideas.
You're 100% correct about it being the Indian not the arrow, and if anything this thread has spurred the desire in my to grab my 6920 and shoot shoot shoot! 325 yards is the max we most often shoot to, and it's at a 66% torso at that but I know with irons I can hit it quick and over/over with the carbine. Not that I don't love taking my scoped Noveske out, super accurate and fun, but my Colt is my grab n go rifle hands down.
Rayrevolver
10-02-17, 09:08
How about a new challenge or standard, call it the Eurodriver 2017 or M4C Carbine Baseline?
Shoot it, post numbers. Demand everyone get off their butts and post numbers & targets. If you could make it applicable at 100y that would be great or even with reduced targets down to 25y.
Back in the day, on a pistol sight that will remain unnamed, the F.A.S.T. drill came out and was really great. You could download the target for free and print it. My buddy and I incorporated the drill into our training regiment. It was a quick drill, 6 rounds: draw, 2 precision shots, reload, and 4 fast shots. Something similar for a carbine would be cool. Or I suppose just do the FAST at a close range.
Head mounted go pro would work- or rifle mounted. It's not about the video, or rockstar times. I think it's more motivational for people to see what average joes like us are doing.
I like rayrevolvers idea. Maybe I'll do a fast test at 50 with the carbine to see what happens. I just switched to glock so I have to see where I'm at with that anyways, I'll print a few off.
Speaking of videos and motivation, Lucas at t-Rex arms has some cool videos. Especially one where he starts talking about the gen5 glock, then says it doesn't matter-go train.
noonesshowmonkey
10-02-17, 13:20
Euro - you should start posting videos of drills or just drills and time - start a thread to set baselines people can aim for. Once you have a bunch of people posting times, other people can get a feel for where they stand.
How about a new challenge or standard, call it the Eurodriver 2017 or M4C Carbine Baseline?
Shoot it, post numbers. Demand everyone get off their butts and post numbers & targets. If you could make it applicable at 100y that would be great or even with reduced targets down to 25y.
I feel like you may have heard this request before, Euro...
Eurodriver
10-02-17, 14:19
I am by no means on a level to set a standard for excellence. I have a head mounted GoPro and can record a video of me doing drills, but what is something we can do to set a standard?
I like the idea of shooting steel because you can’t fake hits on a gong and it adapts to paper also.
The most interesting thing to me about this thread is the possibility for actual training exercises as a community. How to set them up for the average public range user, what to look for, how to score, and report back. Someone needs to spearhead it and let it evolve into usefulness. I’m all ears and ready to participate.
Outlander Systems
10-02-17, 14:51
For Carbine?
Easy.
100m.
Standing.
Full-size IDPA PAPER Target.
1 round, C, B, or A zone.
1 second from low ready at the buzz.
Any shot C or better = Winning.
D-zone or 1.000001 seconds?
Keep. Trying.
I am by no means on a level to set a standard for excellence. I have a head mounted GoPro and can record a video of me doing drills, but what is something we can do to set a standard?
I have one 1/2 IPSC and a few other steel targets and about 1 mile by 300 yards to do hoodrat shit. I like the idea of shooting steel because you can’t fake hits on a gong.
Paladinius
10-02-17, 15:26
Make mine a 6720 with dremeled FSB, a thin, light, modular rail and an AP PRO and a light. Damn little I can't do.
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Well, I can't say that specifically the 6920 (or similar carbine rifles) are *it*.
The accursed 7" handguards are still to short for me to ever willingly live with... :laugh:
BUT... from a theoretical POV, yeah, that's spot on.
People spend to much time worrying about buying the "best thing", then after making the purchase the next "new thing" comes out and they run around wondering if they still have the "best thing", or if they now need to upgrade...
You know what... a quality gun from 1940 is still a quality gun, a chrome lined barrel that has been shooting accurately for you isn't suddenly outclassed by some new manufacturing method, and regular ol' bullets still kill motherf***ers.
Case in point- I've got an OG DD V3 from 09/'10. I wasn't able to do much with it initially (thankfully) due to lack of budget, so for the first couple years I owned it it was shot with irons. The only thing I changed was the stock and grip. It was a glorious day when I could afford a red dot...
Anyway, fast forward to the last year- if we're being honest, the rifle is a little heavier than I'd like, so I looked into weight saving options. Everything from replacing the RDS for a lighter version, to replacing the rail to a full upper replacement...
But each time I come back to the fact that the gun functions just fine as is, and given the cost of the replacements is $1000 +/- is it really worth saving 6 ounces?
I think maybe it's less a certain configuration of gun being the end all, and more people just straight up need to be satisfied with what they have and shoot more to cut through all the marketing hype and bullshit.
The most interesting thing to me about this thread is the possibility for actual training exercises as a community. How to set them up for the average public range user, what to look for, how to score, and report back. Someone needs to spearhead it and let it evolve into usefulness. I’m all ears and ready to participate.
coughappleseedcough
But seriously... for something that can be done at almost any range and is purely accuracy oriented... it's a hard concept to beat.
Perhaps a slightly modified and modernized version of that to start?
Shooterman017
10-02-17, 18:40
For Carbine?
Easy.
100m.
Standing.
Full-size IDPA PAPER Target.
1 round, C, B, or A zone.
1 second from low ready at the buzz.
Any shot C or better = Winning.
D-zone or 1.000001 seconds?
Keep. Trying.
This, so hard.
Colorado S14
10-02-17, 19:34
Really like the 6920, though I don't own one, but it is a good starting spot for the perfect 99% AR for me. Only think I prefer that it does not have is a mid-length gas system. My favorite do anything gun is a Spikes middy with 12" handguard, BUIS, Magpul stock (STR), red-dot, etc.
I'm fine with standard 6920 with Magpul MOE stuff. AP PRO and a light.
nightchief
10-02-17, 21:27
Carbine "X" Drill
I got the idea for this from watching Pat Mac run his pistol X drill. No idea if my version is original or not, probably not. I run this to practice short range marksmanship with an elevated heart rate, left and right handed shooting and sling work.
Requirements
One 1/3 size IPSC AR 500 steel target
Two markers at 25 yards from target, approx 25 yards apart, two markers at 50 yards from target, 25 yards apart. One marker dead center.
Carbine and one magazine loaded with 10 rds.
Spare mag somewhere on your person (rig, pouch, pocket, etc).
Shot timer.
Sights/optics of your choice.
A location or range that allows shooting on the move.
Start in the center at the low ready. Shoot either left or right handed. On the buzzer, shoot until you hit the target, then move to one of the corners. Whichever you choose. Shots from the right side markers are made right handed, shots from the left side markers are made left handed. After shooting from a side marker, return to center. Shot from center must be made opposite which ever hand was used previous. Shoot and hit from all four corner markers, and from return to center marker. Nine hits required. Shooter gets one miss before impacting time by adding a mag change. Selector to be in safe except when shooting at a marker.
My best time is about a minute, using a 11.5" with RDS. But I'm old, fat and slow.
NC
Dionysusigma
10-02-17, 22:49
Really like the 6920, though I don't own one, but it is a good starting spot for the perfect 99% AR for me.
What will that 99% not be capable of, that the 100% will?
... middy with 12" handguard, BUIS, Magpul stock (STR), red-dot, etc.
And how much would that extra money and weight make a difference when, right when it's time to pull the trigger, your nose begins to itch and you pull the shot?
My fanciest AR sports a BCM ELW 16" barrel with 15" KMR-A rail, mid gas length system, Trijicon TriPower with a 6x flip-to-side magnifier and Magpul MBUS Pro irons, a Geissele SD3G trigger, full ambi controls, Vltor A5H2 extension wearing a Magpul STR stock, and VTAC hybrid sling on QD anti-rotational QD cups. My least fancy is an Aero Precision middy with an A1 stock and Daniel Defense A1.5 rear sight, ALG QMS trigger, and a Turner 1907 AWS sling.
I am as bad a shot with the second rifle as I am the first, but only by a matter of seconds. The first was built for speed, competition, and options; the second for simplicity and price. Having put over 6000 rounds through each, I wish I'd taken the second to more classes than I had. It's... well, it's a funner rifle to shoot. Something about how sensible it is, and how capable, compared to a years-long project that cost four times as much.
Anyone who criticizes another's tool on appearance or "tactical capability" is the same sort who criticizes someone's choice of hotdog topping.
"What's that rifle not capable of doing that you do as a shooter? "
-Run after getting a little dry of lube and dirty.
Now these are things that I just "don't like" about the 6920. (and other AR's)
-Can't fold the stock for quick stowing (without taking the rifle in half)
-I don't like the location of the charging handle (a little awkward)
-I don't like the front end to be any heavier than it needs to be (I like a lightweight barrel)
-I don't like where the bolt lock/release is (awkward/slow)
-I don't like that it's kinda tough to clean the barrel extension
-Trigger stinks and anyone will shoot better with a better trigger
-A2 grip stinks and creates pain. It must be changed.
-Handguard must be changed at least to something stable
These are the things that come to mind at the moment.
Colorado S14
10-03-17, 07:36
What will that 99% not be capable of, that the 100% will?
I am saying that a 16" AR will get the job done 99% of the time. I think you can make a good case that there are times, not for me but for LEO and Mil., that a suppressed SBR or heavier barreled, magnified optic rifle is a superior choice to a M4 variant.
And how much would that extra money and weight make a difference when, right when it's time to pull the trigger, your nose begins to itch and you pull the shot?
Anyone who criticizes another's tool on appearance or "tactical capability" is the same sort who criticizes someone's choice of hotdog topping.
Not criticizing a 6920, it is a great gun. The reality of the situation is that I like the recoil impulse and how a mid-length shoots over a carbine. The other reality is that a longer handguard which allows you to get out on the gun more keeps me and most others more stable through recoil. Once you have a new handguard BUIS is kind of a necessity. A better trigger does help a gun shoot better/more accurately. A lower 1/3 co-witness red dot and the other stuff are just basic AR stuff. It is not like I am trashing the 6920 and saying that unless a gun has billet recievers and a Kriega barrel it is worthless...
Outlander Systems
10-03-17, 08:01
"What's that rifle not capable of doing that you do as a shooter? "
-Run after getting a little dry of lube and dirty.
Universal to all machines
Now these are things that I just "don't like" about the 6920. (and other AR's)
-Can't fold the stock for quick stowing (without taking the rifle in half)
Preference item
-I don't like the location of the charging handle (a little awkward)
Preference item/training problem
-I don't like the front end to be any heavier than it needs to be (I like a lightweight barrel)
Preference item
-I don't like where the bolt lock/release is (awkward/slow)
Preference item/training problem
-I don't like that it's kinda tough to clean the barrel extension
Preference item
-Trigger stinks and anyone will shoot better with a better trigger
Preference item/training problem
-A2 grip stinks and creates pain. It must be changed.
Preference item
-Handguard must be changed at least to something stable
Preference item
These are the things that come to mind at the moment.
Interestingly, nothing about accuracy, proper function, etc. Got it.
Interestingly, nothing about accuracy, proper function, etc. Got it.
Proper function you glazed over.
I said the other things were mostly preferences. But you enjoyed repeating it.
Many other rifles can run dirty and short of lube. AR's don't.
That's really important for a fighting gun.
Eurodriver
10-03-17, 10:18
Many other rifles can run dirty and short of lube. AR's don't.
That's really important for a fighting gun.
Hmm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhQzj1sIh98
Many other rifles can run dirty and short of lube. AR's don't.
I feel that Mike Pannone's video below is appropriate.
https://youtu.be/Wjsysa5r51k
Outlander Systems
10-03-17, 10:28
What sort of challenges did you encounter in gunfights that were directly attributed to your weapon?
Many other rifles can run dirty and short of lube. AR's don't.
That's really important for a fighting gun.
Don't have to go to combat to watch AR'S have stoppages.
Go to any range or competition and see it for yourself. I've had plenty of ar's. The only one that never had a stoppage was a 14.5 pinned BCM. But it had very few rounds through it. (A little over 500 or so)
I got tired of playing the game of matching parts, having the right mags and ammo for a particular gun, keeping up with cleaning, etc. It's not a race car and shouldn't require such effort.
I've had plenty other rifles (g3 types, m1a's ak's, now an ARX that have all been far more reliable than most ar's I've had.
I'll never trust them and any ar that has exuded steller reliability is an anomaly and my hat is off to its builder and crew chief.
I'm glad you have faith in your rifle. It's important. I don't share it.
Outlander Systems
10-03-17, 10:38
Cool.
Don't have to go to combat to watch AR'S have stoppages.
Go to any range or competition and see it for yourself. I've had plenty of ar's. The only one that never had a stoppage was a 14.5 pinned BCM. But it had very few rounds through it. (A little over 500 or so)
I got tired of playing the game of matching parts, having the right mags and ammo for a particular gun, keeping up with cleaning, etc. It's not a race car and shouldn't require such effort.
I've had plenty other rifles (g3 types, m1a's ak's, now an ARX that have all been far more reliable than most ar's I've had.
I'll never trust them and any ar that has exuded steller reliability is an anomaly and my hat is off to its builder and crew chief.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-03-17, 10:51
Don't have to go to combat to watch AR'S have stoppages.
Go to any range or competition and see it for yourself. I've had plenty of ar's. The only one that never had a stoppage was a 14.5 pinned BCM. But it had very few rounds through it. (A little over 500 or so)
I got tired of playing the game of matching parts, having the right mags and ammo for a particular gun, keeping up with cleaning, etc. It's not a race car and shouldn't require such effort.
I've had plenty other rifles (g3 types, m1a's ak's, now an ARX that have all been far more reliable than most ar's I've had.
I'll never trust them and any ar that has exuded steller reliability is an anomaly and my hat is off to its builder and crew chief.
I'm glad you have faith in your rifle. It's important. I don't share it.
Quite simply Ron, you’re wrong. You should stop posting here and get back to watching your favorite history channel shows in your moms basement.
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I don't shoot as many rounds as many guys on this forum, but that being said, the only time one of my several ARs ever stopped running over the years was because of a popped primer that seized the bolt carrier.
Don't have to go to combat to watch AR'S have stoppages.
Go to any range or competition and see it for yourself. I've had plenty of ar's. The only one that never had a stoppage was a 14.5 pinned BCM. But it had very few rounds through it. (A little over 500 or so)
This is why just buying a quality rifle from the start matters. The only time I've ever seen ARs have problems is when guys buy cheap crap to throw in it and spend $600 to make Frankenguns with out of spec stuff and wonder why they have issues when the guy with the $650 6920 doesn't.
I got tired of playing the game of matching parts, having the right mags and ammo for a particular gun, keeping up with cleaning, etc. It's not a race car and shouldn't require such effort.
You don't have to do any of this to keep an AR running. I have somewhere between 80,000 and 85,000 rounds through either issued M4s or my personal AR from 2010 to now and have never had a problem. I've worn out action springs and shot out a BCM barrel to the point it was keyholing around 15-16k, but just keeping the gun lubed worked. For my work rifles, I would use cleaning as an opportunity to inspect for irregular wear or broken parts, and I was hardly as hardcore about it as many servicemen are. I never had a malfunction with an M4 in 8 years as a Paratrooper with the exception of UTM rounds stuck in barrels. Even with blanks, I just kept my rifle lubed and it ran and ran.
I've had plenty other rifles (g3 types, m1a's ak's, now an ARX that have all been far more reliable than most ar's I've had.
That's unfortunate. I've found through multiple years of higher volume than most use that an AR runs extremely well when even basic care is given. Lube it and replace worn out parts as needed. Guys get into trouble tweaking around with gas ports and buffer weights, but a standard carbine gas M4 with an H buffer will run with anything.
My main AR is on its third upper. I shot the other two out. Not like "Oh, it's time for a new upper...BCM just dropped a new skinny barrel" but "****, it's keyholing". Only parts replaced in the lower have been the action spring and trigger spring. The only other AR I own has irons and is a grab and go rifle for my wife.
I'll never trust them and any ar that has exuded steller reliability is an anomaly and my hat is off to its builder and crew chief.
Again, it's hard in this day and age to get a bad AR unless you're trying to. The standard 6920 is an incredibly good value in that it's made with all quality parts, to high standards of QC, with proper specifications to insure a pain free rifle for life.
Give one a try.
Quite simply Ron, you’re wrong. You should stop posting here and get back to watching your favorite history channel shows in your moms basement.
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LOL! Got ya right in the feels!
Mr. Goodtimes
10-03-17, 11:43
LOL! Got ya right in the feels!
No Ron, no “feels” here. I’m just saying that this is the sort of misinformation that causes people to make poor decisions when purchasing a firearm. Online, everyone looks the same, and nobodies background can really be accurately validated in most circumstances.
The information you have posted is not only wrong, it’s a complete fabricated lie, one that you are likely perpetuating in order to validate your existence and to feel relevant and important. Incorrect information is both misleading to those trying to make an informed excision and also further perpetuates the stigma that gun owners are a bunch of opinion instead, egocentric hicks.
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All I know is that if I had to leave home forever never to return, either my Colt or SR-25 is coming with me.
I cannot begin to attest to Ron's combat experiences or his use of a patrol rifle nor his years of training on the AR platform but he is very much in the minority in his opinions, to which he is entitled.
Have fun
Yes. That's how it looks from late June to mid-September every year, hurricane or not. Drainage is in the works.
I hope so.
Sure seems like it.
I like this quote.
The fact that there are no less than 15 people arguing about the strength of the KMR rail system is baffling. Let's see someone drive over their shit with a truck and put their money where their mouth is. I'm trying to find a post from a well known member here slamming me for arguing that plastic handguards can take a beating. I'd love to resurrect that thread with a video of my 5000lb SUV running them over 5 or 6 times.
https://i.imgur.com/ta0Z5Lm.jpg
At least 2-3x a month. I have an open invite extended to vetted M4C members who aren't retards if they are ever in FL and want to come. All you need is:
1) Quality helmet mounted NV
2) A weapon
3) A way to aim #2 using #1
4) Ammo
5) Lots...and lots...and lots...of bug spray.
ETA: This was the link I was trying to post in the OP. Apparently it didn't work. To those saying that I am implying no one needs anything more than a Colt 6920 - I counter with this video. Of course a Colt 6920 can't do this, but as I was saying, a Colt 6920 can do a whole heck of a lot more things proficiently than this rifle can. Also, if anyone needs any further proof that the internet is simply a giant group-think and that actually getting out and shooting the gun will always be more beneficial than debating on parts to buy, I submit to you this thread for your amusement. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?179387-600-yard-steel-shooting-with-5-56-9-2-2017-Sub-MOA-1000-(lol-but-for-real))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAzV7X5EPbc
I got what you meant, and the bike analogy is appropriate.
I’ve always been a simple bastard. Before health issues grounded me off the bikes, I had the ORIGINAL “king of the hill”...the Kaw ZX-11D.
Bone stock. A buddy asked what I was gonna mod on it?!? I told him mod? Hell I can’t figure out why the throttle twists as far as it does NOW. Stooooo-pid amount of performance.
I've said it a billion times, but I shall again.
Triggers do not make your rifle more accurate. It helps the shooter overcome his or her inadequacies as a shooter.
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Outlander Systems
10-03-17, 12:48
Band aids, bro.
I've said it a billion times, but I shall again.
Triggers do not make your rifle more accurate. It helps the shooter overcome his or her inadequacies as a shooter.
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...I've had plenty of ar's...
Was one of them a 6920?
I've said it a billion times, but I shall again.
Triggers do not make your rifle more accurate. It helps the shooter overcome his or her inadequacies as a shooter.
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Drives me nuts. I swear everyone I talk to at the range loves to brag about their trigger.
What's so great about it? My stock trigger delivers groups half the size.
That means... it must be because of... feelings?!?
Quite simply Ron, you’re wrong. You should stop posting here and get back to watching your favorite history channel shows in your moms basement.
This isn't how we educate each other. If ArmyChief were still alive, I think he'd let us know how disappointing and counterproductive this type of response is and he'd do a much better job at it than I am.
If we continue down this path, the thread will devolve into being useless noise. I find that if an AR isn't reliable and needs special attention, it's because something is out of spec or not properly taken care of, not because the design is finicky. It's been my experience that it very simple to take care of an AR properly, easier than a Garand or an M14. Browbeating Ron for being the voice of dissent will not help him gain insight into improving his experience with ARs
sundance435
10-03-17, 13:23
Anyway...if I'm understanding the point of this thread, then the premise isn't controversial - the 6920 is the best balance for most people. If that's the criteria, then I'd own 2 guns - a Glock 19 and a 6920, both with very little modification and I probably wouldn't be on a gun board devoted largely to informing me of new ways to part with my money. That being said, since I like spending money on this stuff and at least for the near future I'm able to legally own more than 2 guns, then the first thing I'm doing with my 6920 - other than adding a sling and light/mount - is replacing the trigger. It's hard to have an "endgame" rifle with a mil-spec trigger. I've never spent money on an AR part that had as good of a ROI as a quality trigger. You replace that and in my subjective opinion, you're closer.
I replace lots of triggers myself, but they do not in anyway change the mechanical accuracy of the rifle. Their only advantage is that it helps the shooter overcome their own incompetences.
The most ROI I get with my rifles is optics and ammunition.
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This isn't how we educate each other. If ArmyChief were still alive, I think he'd let us know how disappointing and counterproductive this type of response is and he'd do a much better job at it than I am.
If we continue down this path, the thread will devolve into being useless noise. I find that I'd an AR isn't reliable and needs special attention, it's because something is out of or not properly taken care of, not because the design is finicky. It's been my experience that it very simple to take care of an AR properly, easier than a Garand or an M14. Browbeating Ron for being the voice of dissent will not help him gain insight into improving his experience with ARs
Nice sentiments.
That is the thesis of this thread.
Not to nitpick the gadgetry or anything else.
The AR has, like it or not, won the World's Arms Race. We are in a post AR world. 16 odd years of combat on top of the decade in Vietnam on top of flare ups has proven it.
But that's not what this is about.
A 6920 offers a blank, no-frills canvas.
Ever get one of those MOA targets from a Larue purchase? Ever just go out and shoot?
It's building fundamentals that once you have, cannot be taken away.
There is a lot of pretention in the gun world.
It is time to smash some walls.
Nice sentiments.
FWIW I agree. I also know a lot of the knowledgeable, long time veterans of the platform, get tired of new people asking some of the same old tired questions but if our response is always "use the search feature", then new conversation is dampened and discouraged. Without new people to talk to and develop educational repore with, a great forum like this one could eventually die.
It's building fundamentals that once you have, cannot be taken away.
I disagree. You can lose them quite quickly or you do not stay up on them.
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Don't have to go to combat to watch AR'S have stoppages.
Go to any range or competition and see it for yourself. I've had plenty of ar's. The only one that never had a stoppage was a 14.5 pinned BCM. But it had very few rounds through it. (A little over 500 or so)
I got tired of playing the game of matching parts, having the right mags and ammo for a particular gun, keeping up with cleaning, etc. It's not a race car and shouldn't require such effort.
I've had plenty other rifles (g3 types, m1a's ak's, now an ARX that have all been far more reliable than most ar's I've had.
I'll never trust them and any ar that has exuded steller reliability is an anomaly and my hat is off to its builder and crew chief.
I'm glad you have faith in your rifle. It's important. I don't share it.
And this is where you have to ask some questions:
1. Was this a Colt 6920 or some other similar quality AR or was this one of the one of the lesser brands that say people say, "are good enough for the average person"?
2. Was this a stock gun or some gun that someone ****ed with and screwed up?
3. Was the gun running decent ammo or shit ammo?
4. Was the gun properly lubricated?
heavygunner8
10-04-17, 17:21
I guess this thread validates my buying of the Colt LE6920 trooper, but at the same time telling me I don't need any other AR-15s. One can never have enough AR rifles.
WickedWillis
10-04-17, 17:32
I disagree. You can lose them quite quickly or you do not stay up on them.
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Yep I agree. It's a perishable skill.
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