View Full Version : John Wick Fighting Style
Mr. Goodtimes
09-29-17, 16:54
I recently just watched both John Wick movies back to back. I have to say, wow, what a fine piece of cinematography. My knowledge is mostly centered around boutique firearms and accessories, however, I know very little about tactics.
My question is... is John Wicks fighting style real? Why does he shoot so many people in the legs first? I've always read on here that you want to shoot high center chest, however, Mr. Wick was trained by Taran Butler so... I tend to think that there is at least some truth to what's going on. Also, why does he walk around with his gun sideways so much?
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Averageman
09-29-17, 17:26
I think you are right, it would appear that way,...But, it makes for some dramatic follow up shots.
I would have to agree. He is a pretty successful hitman
Outlander Systems
09-29-17, 17:38
I've always wondered why shooting instructors make the goofy sideways fist thing when doing an empty-handed "weapon presentation."
Averageman
09-29-17, 17:42
I would have to agree. He is a pretty successful hitman
Have you, in your line of work, ever encountered someone with a serious skill set?
ramairthree
09-29-17, 17:47
Butler is a hell of a natural talent and great shooter.
His tactical background is non existent.
Sort of like how Michael phelps can swim circles around SEALs,
But you may not consider him an expert in water ops.
Have you, in your line of work, ever encountered someone with a serious skill set?
Actually yeah. He was drunk and showing out but had enough presence of mind to take the ride and call Top once at Intake.
Honestly, even though he was unarmed, that would not have been a pleasant fight and I am not a small, weak nor timid man.
I didnt mind cutting him some slack in court.
He seemed pretty sharp when sober and not a bad guy.
Averageman
09-29-17, 18:01
Actually yeah. He was drunk and showing out but had enough presence of mind to take the ride and call Top once at Intake.
Honestly, even though he was unarmed, that would not have been a pleasant fight and I am not a small, weak nor timid man.
I didnt mind cutting him some slack in court.
He seemed pretty sharp when sober and not a bad guy.
Well a few folks here have been that asshat, but I mean someone not affiliated with Law Enforcement or Military. Professional no kidding skilled as hell killer criminal?
Oh the story I could tell you about a fight in Vielsek Germany. The hilarity was certainly worth the broken ribs.
Outlander Systems
09-29-17, 18:12
Is John Wick a good movie?
Mr. Goodtimes
09-29-17, 18:13
Butler is a hell of a natural talent and great shooter.
His tactical background is non existent.
Sort of like how Michael phelps can swim circles around SEALs,
But you may not consider him an expert in water ops.
I see what you mean, but John Wick actually has a professional background.... He's a hitman trained by Taran Butler. I see what you mean, though. Taran Butler may not be capable of being a good hitman, however, he can teach one to shoot. Just like Michael Phelps might not be able to be a Navy SEAL, however he can teach them to swim well.
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Well a few folks here have been that asshat, but I mean someone not affiliated with Law Enforcement or Military. Professional no kidding skilled as hell killer criminal?
Oh the story I could tell you about a fight in Vielsek Germany. The hilarity was certainly worth the broken ribs.
Oh. I thought you meant someone with actual training/military experience.
If you mean like a suspected murderer with gang affiliatiom, then yes but they were not sophisticated at all. They were pretty quickly cuffed and secured and not encountered alone.
I misunderstood. I have never encountered a hitman.
I was sorta making fun of the movie.
Mr. Goodtimes
09-29-17, 18:49
Oh. I thought you meant someone with actual training/military experience.
If you mean like a suspected murderer with gang affiliatiom, then yes but they were not sophisticated at all. They were pretty quickly cuffed and secured and not encountered alone.
I misunderstood. I have never encountered a hitman.
I was sorta making fun of the movie.
What would you do if you were encountering a known hitman?
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Averageman
09-29-17, 18:52
I understand, I was kind of tracking that.
I always kind of wondered about that, are there criminals with serious training and skills if not equal to but near these guys and I always doubted it. The craziest violent moments seem to happen spur of the moment with little or no regard for being caught, either in person or on tape.
Anyone with a modicum of common sense and a level of training on a moderate level might honestly walk away.
Had Michael Corleone been less an obvious suspect, and kept his revolver in his pocket, in most cases even today in the age of DNA, he would still very likely walk away uncontested.
What would you do if you were encountering a known hitman?
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That would depend solely on his actions, compliance, and totality of the circumstances.
I'd treat it like a high risk arrest.
Averageman
09-29-17, 19:05
What would you do if you were encountering a known hitman?
If he is known, he simply isn't a hit man.
I believe there was a interview called the "Ice Man Chronicles" where a real no BS Mob Hit Man told his story. The guy for the most part was brutal but not very smart and he had a thirty year career.
I doubt he would have fought hard if encountered at home with his wife and kids.
If he is known, he simply isn't a hit man.
I believe there was a interview called the "Ice Man Chronicles" where a real no BS Mob Hit Man told his story. The guy for the most part was brutal but not very smart and he had a thirty year career.
I doubt he would have fought hard if encountered at home with his wife and kids.Fwiw I may or may not know a guy so they may or may not be out there in the wild.
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Outlander Systems
09-29-17, 20:08
Howdy,
Wasn't there a member here that was a professional hit man? I think his loadout was a select fire pistol and a sniper rifle.
HTH,
Mike
I knew, rather acquainted with, a hit man from the Columbo family through my father.
He was not impressive by any measure we would look to here. No physical presence or martial skills I knew of.
What he was, was a mean cold sociopath who just didn't give a damn.
He did teach me some boxing though.
Howdy,
Wasn't there a member here that was a professional hit man? I think his loadout was a select fire pistol and a sniper rifle.
HTH,
Mike
Oh, that's a good one!
Leaveammoforme
09-29-17, 20:39
Howdy,
Wasn't there a member here that was a professional hit man? I think his loadout was a select fire pistol and a sniper rifle.
HTH,
Mike
This is a common mistake with regards to the Legendary Stenguns load out. His 93R had been converted to full auto only. He said it himself.
This is a common mistake with regards to the Legendary Stenguns load out. His 93R had been converted to full auto only. He said it himself.
Didn't he also carry it a Serpa? Wouldn't that imply he was an amateur at best? Or was there some special insta fire technique he used that he was unable to explain prior to being banned? Or banned again?
:jester:
Mr. Goodtimes
09-29-17, 21:51
I knew, rather acquainted with, a hit man from the Columbo family through my father.
He was not impressive by any measure we would look to here. No physical presence or martial skills I knew of.
What he was, was a mean cold sociopath who just didn't give a damn.
He did teach me some boxing though.
So do you think that John Wicks character is actually perhaps slightly exaggerated to make a good movie?
Perhaps the real John Wick lived in a much more humble home, drove a Ford Focus and married an more "modest" woman?
The hitman that you knew... what was his favorite tool of his trade?
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Eurodriver
09-29-17, 22:03
Didn't he also carry it a Serpa? Wouldn't that imply he was an amateur at best? Or was there some special insta fire technique he used that he was unable to explain prior to being banned? Or banned again?
:jester:
Howdy,
He did carry it in a SERPA. This is fact. It resisted the rain forest and jungle AO he found himself in constantly while trying to take HVTs dead or alive.
HTH
I recently just watched both John Wick movies back to back. I have to say, wow, what a fine piece of cinematography. My knowledge is mostly centered around boutique firearms and accessories, however, I know very little about tactics.
My question is... is John Wicks fighting style real? Why does he shoot so many people in the legs first? I've always read on here that you want to shoot high center chest, however, Mr. Wick was trained by Taran Butler so... I tend to think that there is at least some truth to what's going on. Also, why does he walk around with his gun sideways so much?
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I think it's partly Center Axis Relock
Mr. Goodtimes
09-29-17, 22:46
I think it's partly Center Axis Relock
What exactly is center axis relock and what does it offer in the way of advantages and disadvantages?
Also, what is the logic behind shooting people in the leg prior to shooting them in the face? I always read on here you don't want to shoot to "wound."
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What exactly is center axis relock and what does it offer in the way of advantages and disadvantages?
Also, what is the logic behind shooting people in the leg prior to shooting them in the face? I always read on here you don't want to shoot to "wound."
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This is all I got:
http://whiskeyracer.tumblr.com/post/157368470905/oa-ar15-guns-center-axis-relock-aka-car-system
Is John Wick a good movie?
The first one was awesome. Very entertaining. The second one, not so much. It wasn't terrible but it got old because it just felt like the same fighting and shooting scenes over and over. He would wound somebody and then move on to the other guy and then kill them and then come back and anchor the first guy. Then it was just lather, rinse and repeat like 47 times and then credits. I don't think there was very much creativity or thought put into the second one as there was the first.
What exactly is center axis relock and what does it offer in the way of advantages and disadvantages?
Also, what is the logic behind shooting people in the leg prior to shooting them in the face? I always read on here you don't want to shoot to "wound."
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Following on with variable's post, I think this guys took over teaching Center-Axis Relock, their page contains more explanation: http://www.sabretactical.com/
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-30-17, 00:19
I assume most hit men are psychopaths able to barely hold it together that get recycled by the new psycopath when they know too much. Ambush kills on people that are more than likely "on their side" than taking out rival gangs or threats. Maybe a witness here or there, but those would tend to be people in your organization. Close kills on defenseless targets at prearranged opportune times with rage to get you over issues that pop up.
When was the last time someone was whacked at more than 15 feet, let alone a legit rifle shot?
JOHN Wick 2 is just begging to be turned into 10 3-gun stAges for a national level shoot.
Moose-Knuckle
09-30-17, 05:26
I assume most hit men are psychopaths able to barely hold it together that get recycled by the new psycopath when they know too much. Ambush kills on people that are more than likely "on their side" than taking out rival gangs or threats. Maybe a witness here or there, but those would tend to be people in your organization. Close kills on defenseless targets at prearranged opportune times with rage to get you over issues that pop up.
Throughout Latin America paramilitary groups that go off reservation work as enforcers and sicarios for DTOs/CTOs, most are US trained. These guys are not amateurs, Los Zetas has made hits in north Texas.
Years ago I was watching a documentary on the OSS where during WWII they actively recruited psychopaths as they lacked any compunction and often times derived joy in harming/killing others. I recently learned of Silvestras Griekshell, Lithuanian collaborator who worked at a Polish death camp for the Nazis at the age of 16. The Allies gave him a new name and American citizenship, his eldest son and daughter has gone on the record claiming their father was a known serial killer that was contracted by the CIA throughout the Cold War. His handlers knew he committed "recreational murders" on the side but was really good at what he did and was an asset thus he was never burned.
As for the OP, it's a Hollywood film franchise.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-30-17, 05:59
I was thinking more of US "organized" crime rather than the 'Industrial' crime of the cartels.
ramairthree
09-30-17, 14:50
What exactly is center axis relock and what does it offer in the way of advantages and disadvantages?
Also, what is the logic behind shooting people in the leg prior to shooting them in the face? I always read on here you don't want to shoot to "wound."
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IIRC it's advantages are that in movies it looks really cool.
In a gun fight in your car or in a phone booth it may have some applicability.
It is a system created and touted by a man with little LE gun handling, less tactical experience, and no SOF background.
I have watched a few decent shooters run stages with outdated SOT/SFARTEC technique, current SFAUC/SFARTEC/OTC technique, with or without some pure gun games skills/background, and then run the same stages a few times with this technique. It is not a superior technique.
It has the whole vibe of those days of workout systems, fighting styles, etc. Ads in Soldier of Fortune.
dwhitehorne
09-30-17, 16:35
IIRC it's advantages are that in movies it looks really cool.
In a gun fight in your car or in a phone booth it may have some applicability.
It is a system created and touted by a man with little LE gun handling, less tactical experience, and no SOF background.
I have watched a few decent shooters run stages with outdated SOT/SFARTEC technique, current SFAUC/SFARTEC/OTC technique, with or without some pure gun games skills/background, and then run the same stages a few times with this technique. It is not a superior technique.
It has the whole vibe of those days of workout systems, fighting styles, etc. Ads in Soldier of Fortune.
In the early 90's many I worked with thought it was the greatest. I kind of thought it was another gimmick and was ridiculed for not jumping on board. I can tell you running a P7M13 through a few drills made it to hot to hold without gloves. Also the most I got out of CAR was sore thumbs from burning though so many mags. It did kind of get us away from the double tap and immediately drop to the low ready to scan when the threat wasn't actually down. David
I had the misfortune of spending a day in class with Paul Castle and his CAR system. I was working in Middle Tennessee and for reasons I can't remember I and a couple of other officers were sent attend one of his courses. First day in the classroom he has everyone pull out their weapons and unload. Rounds flying around the room as slides were racked, a couple of delberts flagging everyone. And then he does a cursory check to see if all 25 of us are unloaded. Then Paul starts having the class practice his CAR by pointing their "unloaded" handguns all over the room. Me and the guys I were with were like "holy crap" and called our department's training coordinator and told him what was going on. He said to GTFO now, so we left. And that is my limited experience with center axis relock.
Mr. Goodtimes
09-30-17, 23:36
Years ago I was watching a documentary on the OSS where during WWII they actively recruited psychopaths as they lacked any compunction and often times derived joy in harming/killing others. I recently learned of Silvestras Griekshell, Lithuanian collaborator who worked at a Polish death camp for the Nazis at the age of 16. The Allies gave him a new name and American citizenship, his eldest son and daughter has gone on the record claiming their father was a known serial killer that was contracted by the CIA throughout the Cold War. His handlers knew he committed "recreational murders" on the side but was really good at what he did and was an asset thus he was never burned.
Da fuq?
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https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?33431-Anyone-familier-with-Paul-Castle
There was a big MaryJane farm around here when I was a teenager. The man came in bought a big farm and bought a lot of the little farms that joined it. I guess they were running it across the ridge here and a few times he came zooming up our dead end road. Him and Dad had words and he was a perfect gentleman afterwards. A few weeks later him and a very large clean looking black man came up to the house. He was supposed to be a dozer man and he was wearing brand new overalls. Can you say "looks out of place". Anyways they were going to be doing some heavy equipment work on his property and the black gentleman was going to do the work. They wanted to know if Dad had anything that needed working on as they joined us on the back side. Dad said he couldn't think of anything.
A few weeks later it turned out that the large black gentleman was an enforcer for what ever organization they were hooked up with. Apparently he had threatened the local nosy busybody when he caught him slipping through the woods. So that's the closest to a "real world criminal" that I've gotten.
Paul Castle, blast from the past. He was at my states law enforcements academy in the late 90's. They taught it as an addendum to the basic recruits. What a joke. As it was taught it was useless if you didn't have a 15 round gun. Had one person graze thier arm with a round. We decided it could be used with a shotgun, fairly safely. It didn't last long and I remember speaking to one of the instructors laer and he told me that he sold a bill of goods and they bought it. It didn't last long before going away.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?33431-Anyone-familier-with-Paul-Castle
Todd Goodwin's input was pretty rational and spot on in that thread.
I thought this was way funny, and true: It's flashy and different and has that cult-esque sense of being "in the know" if you drink the kool-aid.
So do you think that John Wicks character is actually perhaps slightly exaggerated to make a good movie?
Perhaps the real John Wick lived in a much more humble home, drove a Ford Focus and married an more "modest" woman?
The hitman that you knew... what was his favorite tool of his trade?
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No idea. That was 1970 and never thought about that guy again until now. You could allege that I was just a kid being BS'd and I couldn't give you anything back. I recall one time getting my ears boxed for asking questions as a curious kid. That guy didn't talk about business.
I like how John used to C.A.R. shooting method in close proximity. That I know has been utilized in SWAT, Navy Seal, Delta and a few other organizations: http://www.pointshooting.com/1acar.htm
47799
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I think a lot of the shooting is artistic license. Shoot the villain a couple of times and end with a kill shot. Just like Collateral.
I dont think CAR has been used by anybody real
I dont think CAR has been used by anybody real
I don't know if it has actually been used but it has beet taught and implemented into other forms. Don't know if it has function or not, but it looks awesome and if you have to defend yourself, do it with style and class!!
sundance435
10-03-17, 13:35
Yes, it's "implemented" when your physical surroundings dictate holding the gun that closely. It's not really a tactic, but a matter of practicality and function over form. As for engaging someone at a distance greater than 5 feet when you're not in a confined space? Probably not. But, it does look cool in a movie and certainly makes it look to the uninformed masses that this guy is serious. I'm gonna spitball that there are only a few thousand living people who have actually engaged in real CQB professionally, not just by dumb luck, and even fewer who have done it multiple times. The rest of us are just trying to improve our chances of surviving "dumb luck" by learning from people who have legitimately been in those situations.
Oh, and the second movie was terrible.
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