View Full Version : Who is the Aimpoint of LPVOs?
First I would like to thank everyone that helped with figuring out the LPVO for my brother. I am very sure he is going to really enjoy it. As I said as well, I am also going to let him know it is from all of you as well as my wife and I.
Having had this recent discussion on LPVOs (big interest of mine recently), an interesting query popped into my head I thought I would ask all of you and would possibly make for an interesting discussion.
Although people have their preferences, it seems as though all-in-all that Aimpoint is the "king" of red-dots for all of it's given factors. Who would you say is the "Aimpoint" of LPVOs and why? If possible, compare and contrast with Aimpoint (their positives although from a variable optic standpoint - hope that makes sense).
Lol, just reread my post too, and it just really comes off to me as an essay prompt from school.
MOLON AABE
09-30-17, 18:03
If only Aimpoint would make one. Especially with their battery life.
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vicious_cb
09-30-17, 18:16
People like aimpoints because they work and are proven. If you want something bombproof I would probaby look at the razor HD 2. It weighs 26 oz for a reason.
I hear ya. I wonder why they haven't tried to break into that market at all. Was feeling that in some way possibly their 6x magnifier was almost like a feeler.
I've never used one but it sounds like US Optics dual focal plane scopes got pretty close, along of course with S&B. Solid daylight visible red dot, good battery life (relative to scopes), very durable, etc. Wonder what new lines they're coming out with outside of those B-models.
People like aimpoints because they work and are proven. If you want something bombproof I would probaby look at the razor HD 2. It weighs 26 oz for a reason.
Not looking for a scope myself to buy that equates. Just a general discussion I thought would be interesting.
sidewaysil80
09-30-17, 20:07
In terms of robustness and reliability, the Trijicon VCOG. Glass quality and function goes to Kahles. The only company that offers both in one package earning the title of "aimpoint" of LPVO is Schmidt and Bender, specifically the PMII CC. They actually put a red dot in a 1-8 with that model.
gunnerblue
09-30-17, 21:24
The Aimpoint of scopes, in my opinion, should be daytime bright with long battery life, super tough and relatively small. My vote is the USO SR-4C. Useful MIL-based reticle, daytime bright red dot with a very long battery life for a scope (8,000 hours claimed, mine is less but is run at max power for 10 hours a day). Excellent glass and build quality with a relatively small size.
People like aimpoints because they work and are proven. If you want something bombproof I would probaby look at the razor HD 2. It weighs 26 oz for a reason.
Excessive use of brass?
Excessive use of brass?
They are a physically large scope. A Nightforce 1-4 would probably be fairly robust.
The Z8i is 18oz. IMO, 1-4 scopes are very dated, especially the NF offerings.
For discussions sake, which LPVO is most like the Aimpoint PRO? There are plenty of high-speed dudes out there with the T-2 w/QD mount. The beauty of the PRO is that it's solid and still obtainable for the average guy without eliminating his ammo budget for months on end. I would probably be able to appreciate a USO or S&B, but there wouldn't be much shooting for a while on the way to and from buying it.
gunnerblue
10-01-17, 14:52
Trijicon Accupoint and Accupower. Accupower will be a little cheaper, but I've noticed no difference durability-wise when mounted on a patrol rifle.
Thanks. $2,000 Optics turn me off but I don't want to start all the way down with the Strike Eagle for my first try at it.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-01-17, 16:05
My father has a Trijicon Accupoint TR-24 on his rifle and it's been an absolutely great optic. Now days they're very affordable. The triangle reticle is very fast.
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ExplorinInTheWoods
10-01-17, 18:04
I wouldn't say its easy to say who is the "aimpoint" simply because in the LPV game you have different magnification ranges and reticles and reticles are subjective to what people like. In terms of popularity I would say Vortex stuff is popular because the Razor 1-6 is actually a good scope and Vortex hit the lottery with jerry being the face of that scope then you see a bunch of people with strike eagles, I personally do not like the strike eagle at all, glass is not that good, reticle is not daylight bright but it is a cheap scope so people bought them up quick.
ExplorinInTheWoods
10-01-17, 18:05
My father has a Trijicon Accupoint TR-24 on his rifle and it's been an absolutely great optic. Now days they're very affordable. The triangle reticle is very fast.
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Great optic! It's still probably my favorite because of how simple the reticle is, and it's fast because its bright and its super lightweight.
With the price requirements mentioned, I'll throw in the Leopoldo vxr patrol. It's around $500, bright dot reticle, decent glass, huge eye box, so it's fast, and motion sensor lets you keep it on like an aimpoint for HD.
I didn't like the fisheye of the trijicon, or the reticle of the other 1-4x. Plus it's one of , if not the lightest variable illuminated reticle scope out.
I haven't seen any reports of failures. I'd imagine some people are still running them hard.
IMO, the TR24 is a very good optic. The power range is kind of low, but every other feature is good. I had a TR24-G, and I wish it would have been a R or red version. Don't fall into that fallacy that green reticles are easier to pickup. Its said that the eye can distinguish more shades of green, but this doesn't cross into reticle usage. You want something that is a DIRECT contrast to things that appear in nature. Like something red.
If there's a detraction to the TR24, is that the reticle doesn't allow for holdovers. This may or may not be an issue based on your firing and zero distance.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-01-17, 22:05
IMO, the TR24 is a very good optic. The power range is kind of low, but every other feature is good. I had a TR24-G, and I wish it would have been a R or red version. Don't fall into that fallacy that green reticles are easier to pickup. Its said that the eye can distinguish more shades of green, but this doesn't cross into reticle usage. You want something that is a DIRECT contrast to things that appear in nature. Like something red.
If there's a detraction to the TR24, is that the reticle doesn't allow for holdovers. This may or may not be an issue based on your firing and zero distance.
If you use the triangle reticle, off a 100 yd zero the bottom of the triangle is a pretty damn good 300yd holdover
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Problem being, depending on the size of the target, the reticle can completely obscure it. It is workable though...
ExplorinInTheWoods
10-03-17, 07:30
It can do that. I've shot a lot of 3 gun matches where they like to do 8 inch plates from 230 260 315 and 375. 230 and 260 aren't hard but the last two are obscured. I use a 1-8 accupower now. But for shooting man size targets it's no problem at 300.
vicious_cb
10-03-17, 15:35
IMO, the TR24 is a very good optic. The power range is kind of low, but every other feature is good. I had a TR24-G, and I wish it would have been a R or red version. Don't fall into that fallacy that green reticles are easier to pickup. Its said that the eye can distinguish more shades of green, but this doesn't cross into reticle usage. You want something that is a DIRECT contrast to things that appear in nature. Like something red.
If there's a detraction to the TR24, is that the reticle doesn't allow for holdovers. This may or may not be an issue based on your firing and zero distance.
The reticle generally sucks for any kind of distance work. Its great to use as a red dot but anything that requires precision the tip of the reticle has too much bloom to be precise. Personally I would say the TR24 is much closer to a RDS+magnifier combo than it is to a LPVO.
ExplorinInTheWoods
10-03-17, 19:01
The reticle generally sucks for any kind of distance work. Its great to use as a red dot but anything that requires precision the tip of the reticle has too much bloom to be precise. Personally I would say the TR24 is much closer to a RDS+magnifier combo than it is to a LPVO.
I agree that it is not ideal for distance work but it still is a good optic. If I wanted an optic that was really good at distance work I wouldn't be using a 1-X though.
I agree, but I think at some point you have to quantify what is meant by "distance work."
IMO, some of the higher range 1-whatever varios have enough for .223 rounds.
ExplorinInTheWoods
10-04-17, 11:44
I personally say distance starts at 300. That's when drop starts to play in and wind starts to affect it. I know someone will come in and say it starts at 1000 but if I'm talking about .223/5.56 it starts at 300 in my opinion.
With the price requirements mentioned, I'll throw in the Leopoldo vxr patrol. It's around $500, bright dot reticle, decent glass, huge eye box, so it's fast, and motion sensor lets you keep it on like an aimpoint for HD.
I didn't like the fisheye of the trijicon, or the reticle of the other 1-4x. Plus it's one of , if not the lightest variable illuminated reticle scope out.
I haven't seen any reports of failures. I'd imagine some people are still running them hard.
In mentioning price I meant like in the red-dot world, Aimpoint is pricey (most expensive? not sure) but with that comes that quality and durability. In that same vein of thought that's why I was thinking something like either S&B ShortDot or USO with their SR-C series that had the dual FP, red-dot on second. Very curious what USO will be coming out with.
Although cheaper would be nicer of course. Like I would think in the fixed power world, an ACOG would be the "Aimpoint" of fixed powers: awesome glass, great illumination, light and extremely durable. Now although fixed, its still 1/2 - 1/3 the price of something like an S&B, so does a LPVO of "Aimpoint" quality (super durable, super bright dot/reticle, awesome glass, etc) need to be S&B money? Idk. I always hear about diminishing returns after a certain level, but at the same point I don't know anyone who tops Aimpoint in red-dots and they also seem to be at the top of the price list.
I personally say distance starts at 300. That's when drop starts to play in and wind starts to affect it. I know someone will come in and say it starts at 1000 but if I'm talking about .223/5.56 it starts at 300 in my opinion.
I agree, but I think at some point you have to quantify what is meant by "distance work."
IMO, some of the higher range 1-whatever varios have enough for .223 rounds.
In reference to this too, it reminds me of what Travis Haley mentions in one of his videos about optics, and about time working for you or against you. Outside of 300+ yards, I would think that typically time is working for you (as opposed to CQB distances+), so should you use something like a TR25 with the triangle-post reticle, you could dial in the elevation in order to engage someone/something at a distance of say 500-60 yards. I don't know, that's just my .02 cents :)
Failure2Stop
10-07-17, 23:02
I wrote a kinda long response to this, but never sent it because I was writing it in gaps at work and then left on a trip.
If it seems worth it, I'll post it when I get back. Most if it was about why I prefer certain arrangements, my experience, and my application. Short version: I don't want to have to rely on illumination, I have a pretty decent amount of time behind a bunch of them, and I shoot them pretty good.
Here's my list, in no particular order:
NF NXS 1-4x with FC-3G reticle.
I have mine on an 11.5" 5.56. Expected application is 90% inside 200 meters, with 10% inside 500 meters.
This is my in-house and grab-n-go fast gun with 50gr TSX.
It's fast, it's small, and it's robust.
Would do combat with. These are a really solid choice, so long as they meet your employment envelope.
Leupold VX-6 1-6x with Multigun FireDot Reticle.
I have one on my go-to GP 14.5" 5.56.
Much like the FC-3G, it doesn't need illumination to work, and also is tied to a 200 yard zero. Not my preference, but just fine really. I've used it for everything from 2-gun competition to blasting hogs/yotes/etc at distance, and it works well.
Probably not as tough as the NF, but I don't fall out of helicopters for a living anymore.
Really light. These have an exceptional cost:benefit ratio.
Leupold MK6 1-6x with CMR-W or TMR-D reticle.
If your use is usually at 3-6x, at 200-600 meters go with the CMR-W reticle. If primarily at the low range/inside 200 meters, go with the TMR-D. Both of these favor illumination, but are really tough.
The excellent wind reference and robustness of this optic outweighs the illumination need to me.
Kahles K16i with SM1 reticle.
Replaced a Mk8 1.1-8 on my lightweight .308.
Lacks wind holds, but for staying inside 300 meters, I'm ok, given the low illumination requirement of the reticle and overall awesomeness of the glass. Fairly lightweight, basically sold as a ruggedized Z6i.
Swarovski Z6i and Z8i with BRT reticle.
I do not own one of these, but have played with the Z6i quite a bit.
Really good reticle, really good illumination, and are not terribly reliant on illumination, and are very light. The Z6i dominates the 3-gun and 2-gun application, which includes tossing guns into plastic barrels pretty regularly.
These hit a whole lot of check-boxes, but are not inexpensive. The Z8i and one optic that is about to come out are the only two 1-8x optics that I am really excited about, and each fills a slightly different role, so I can hopefully feel ok with buying one of each...
I love the TR24. I've actually got a couple of them. The thing that makes them great is also what holds them back; the reticle. It's a great 0-400m optic. Beyond that it's difficult. On 4x the triangle is roughly 1 mil tall. With a 200m zero, the bottom of the triangle puts you on at 400. Cover the target with the triangle at 300. Use just the tip at 200.
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I wrote a kinda long response to this, but never sent it because I was writing it in gaps at work and then left on a trip.
If it seems worth it, I'll post it when I get back. Most if it was about why I prefer certain arrangements, my experience, and my application. Short version: I don't want to have to rely on illumination, I have a pretty decent amount of time behind a bunch of them, and I shoot them pretty good.Please do post it if you can; I'm eager to learn your setups and more importantly the why's. Have you moved away entirely from RDSs as your primary rifle aiming devices? Thanks in advance.
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Swarovski Z6i and Z8i with BRT reticle.
I do not own one of these, but have played with the Z6i quite a bit.
Really good reticle, really good illumination, and are not terribly reliant on illumination, and are very light. The Z6i dominates the 3-gun and 2-gun application, which includes tossing guns into plastic barrels pretty regularly.
These hit a whole lot of check-boxes, but are not inexpensive. The Z8i and one optic that is about to come out are the only two 1-8x optics that I am really excited about, and each fills a slightly different role, so I can hopefully feel ok with buying one of each...
Going to need details...
Defaultmp3
10-08-17, 13:33
Going to need details...FWIW, there's been consistent rumblings of a new 1-8x Nightforce for a couple years now.
I will say, both the Minox ZP8 and the March Tactical Shorty both look very interesting on paper.
I wrote a kinda long response to this, but never sent it because I was writing it in gaps at work and then left on a trip.
If it seems worth it, I'll post it when I get back. Most if it was about why I prefer certain arrangements, my experience, and my application. Short version: I don't want to have to rely on illumination, I have a pretty decent amount of time behind a bunch of them, and I shoot them pretty good.
Here's my list, in no particular order:
NF NXS 1-4x with FC-3G reticle.
I have mine on an 11.5" 5.56. Expected application is 90% inside 200 meters, with 10% inside 500 meters.
This is my in-house and grab-n-go fast gun with 50gr TSX.
It's fast, it's small, and it's robust.
Would do combat with. These are a really solid choice, so long as they meet your employment envelope.
(Snip)
This was very timely, thanks for putting it up. I’ve been reading a lot about all of the current 1-6x and 1-8x, but I really didn’t want to add the bulk that comes with many of them. The 1-4x has seemed to fall out of favor, but I keep coming back to the NXS 1-4x due to its reticle, ability to still be used in more awkward shooting positions, durability, etc. The rifle I’m looking at putting it on is a 16” bbl carbine that’s reasonably light and my useage is 200 yards and in, with 95% of that being 100 yards or less. (Mostly less.) Your paragraph on the Nightforce seems to be a pretty good endorsement of it still being a good, relative choice.
gamewarden
10-10-17, 21:29
Going to need details...As am I! Can't wait to see what new goodies SHOT 2018 will bring us. Come on Nightforce!
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With the price requirements mentioned, I'll throw in the Leopoldo vxr patrol. It's around $500, bright dot reticle, decent glass, huge eye box, so it's fast, and motion sensor lets you keep it on like an aimpoint for HD.
.
The only downside I have found is the heavy checkering on the exposed turrets. Really easy for light contact to move them even with shrink wrap applied to make them slick.
Furbyballer
10-11-17, 09:59
The 3 that I have found work the best for my needs are the Kahles 1-6 with sm1 reticle, the USO sr4c 1-4, and the NF 1-4 with fc2 reticle on my 11.5 and fc3g reticle on one of my 16in guns. Those optics I would take and put on any gun and feel comfortable with out to 500 yds with 556. They are all under 22oz, have good illumination or bold reticles, are durable, have fast usable reticles, and awesome awesome glass.
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