View Full Version : Thoughts on the DEMOCRATIC debate... Uh, I mean Presidential debate...
Rmplstlskn
10-08-08, 09:13
My friends, he has a plan...
Nationalize bad mortgages... :mad:
Meg Whitman (eBay CEO) for Treasury Secretary... :confused:
WTF? over...
McCain was a clueless, out of breath imposter of a Republican.
I agree with Glenn Beck... We draw a Fire Line around Congress and let the Presidency go where it may, up in flames (most assuredly Obama, unless he screws up somewhere)...
There is not a snowball in hell chance I will vote for McCain, even with the token Conservative, Sarah Palin. I will write in Ron Paul instead...
What a disaster I saw last night...
Rmpl
Business_Casual
10-08-08, 09:17
You are making a mistake. Writing in Ron Paul is wasting your vote, you shouldn't do that.
Is McCain perfect? No, but neither was Bush. Even Reagan signed bad legislation.
How does helping Obama get elected do any good? You are misguided, my friend.
M_P
Rmplstlskn
10-08-08, 09:23
Maybe I wasn't clear...
There is not a snowball in hell chance I will vote for McCain...
Rmpl
Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 09:27
Thanks for helping vote in another AWB, Rumple.
Aside from wasting votes, I thought Obama's energy plan was laughable. Does he think the oil companies are simply choosing not to drill on the 68 million acres available to them? Does he not realize they would happily drill on land in the US that actually has oil on it? Does he not see how much cheaper it would be to drill here than in the Middle East and the oil companies would love to do just that?
MisterWilson
10-08-08, 09:35
Hold your nose & think of the Supreme Court Justices.
Somebody's gotta pick 'em and Heller couldn't have come any closer...
Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 09:38
Precisely, Wilson. Imagine Obama's picks for the Surpreme Court, Rumpl.
thopkins22
10-08-08, 09:47
You are making a mistake. Writing in Ron Paul is wasting your vote, you shouldn't do that.
Is McCain perfect? No, but neither was Bush. Even Reagan signed bad legislation.
I agree with the sentiment of wanting to write in Ron Paul. Surely Goldwater and Taft would bitch slap us for dealing with the current Republican party. There's so little difference between McCain and Obama on so many of the big issues, that it's really irrelevant which one is elected.
With that said the 2A is important to me, and McCain is certainly better than Obama there...fortunately I live in Texas which will probably go McCain, so I won't hesitate to vote my conscience. I feel bad for those of you in battleground states who need to help McCain.
If McCain warrants a comparison to Bush, well then the decision making process should be over. George Bush will go down in history as one of the most effective, and yet one of the worst presidents in this nations history. Right up there with Lincoln, FDR, Wilson, and all the other leftists whom he has emulated so well.
The Supreme Court is one hell of a good reason to vote for McCain though.
Rmplstlskn
10-08-08, 10:04
"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -- John Quincy Adams
Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 10:07
Some of us are a bit more practical and don't want another AWB, a more socialist gov't, or a liberal Supreme Court that interprets the Constitution as a "living document" that can be changed.
I'll continue living in the real world.
Spin it however you please, but when it comes down to it you've got two choices:
Oppose Obama
Help Obama
Dude, quote whomever you like. Vote for whomever you like.
But you're in a major battleground state that could decide the election. Literally every single vote will matter. So if you choose to put your personal self-righteousness above what's best for the country, if you decide to take a holier-than-thou stance that effectively helps put our country into the hands of Obama, don't expect folks to thank you for it.
Which is the greater dishonor, compromising on your personal political principles or remaining unwavering at the cost of our nation's freedom?
What is one to do if he does not want to vote or Obama OR McCain?
thopkins22
10-08-08, 10:25
Some of us are a bit more practical and don't want another AWB, a more socialist gov't, or a liberal Supreme Court that interprets the Constitution as a "living document" that can be changed.
I'll continue living in the real world.
And you'll continue to get a more socialist government, more restrictions on gun ownership, and a constitution which will continue to be ignored.
Not saying Obama would be better(he wouldn't,) I am saying that you aren't getting what you want with McCain. Here's a guy who is in favor of the total solidification of our socialist credentials...bailout ring a bell?
Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 10:30
And you'll continue to get a more socialist government, more restrictions on gun ownership, and a constitution which will continue to be ignored.
Not saying Obama would be better(he wouldn't,) I am saying that you aren't getting what you want with McCain. Here's a guy who is in favor of the total solidification of our socialist credentials...bailout ring a bell?
And the alternative that wants to do the same plus roll out universal health care, an AWB, and make the Surpeme Court liberal is acceptable to you?
I'm sorry, by "real world," I meant making a hard choice to which viable candidate is closest to your own ideals.
thopkins22
10-08-08, 10:40
And the alternative that wants to do the same plus roll out universal health care, an AWB, and make the Surpeme Court liberal is acceptable to you?
I'm sorry, by "real world," I meant making a hard choice to which viable candidate is closest to your own ideals.
The alternative is very scary himself, I understand that, but I'm not happy about Johnny Mac either. I'm reminded of that Barry Goldwater quote(he might have been quoting Thomas Paine) "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." And it sickens me to think that the "conservative" candidate, is not extreme in the defense of liberty...in fact he's the penultimate moderate.
Who knows...I'll probably watch the polls here in Texas and if it gets real close I'll vote for McCain. If it isn't close? Bob Barr will have one more vote. I don't know how else to get through to the Republican party that we don't want this compassionate conservative crap. We want liberty and small government.
I dont know the age of some here ?
but maybe they did not live through the AWB ?
maybe they were never old enough to have friends dads from WWII or Vietnam and realize what this freedom really is about !
or need to sit down with some WWII vets to get a new perspective on this country ?
I wont throw away a vote no way !!!
last night I was so pissed when obama had to break the rules he signed and say NO I HAVE TO REPLY TO THIS !!! and of course the left sided brokav allowed it !
as I said about Bill Clinton if he will lie to his wife who he supposed loves he will surely lie to you !
Obama breaking the rules he signed for the debate shows his word and signature are worthless and he will do what he wants and does not care one bit about anyone but himself
"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -- John Quincy Adams
So your principles are to screw the country over by electing a marxist?
I am sorry, but I don't want those principles. They suck.
twodollarbill
10-08-08, 11:07
This election is the most exciting since we elected Ronald Regan.
Then as now the news media got it wrong and thought then Mondale had a chance.
People can Hope for a Change....but it ain't going to happen.
I never talk politics with family or friends, but when I get force to I try to make it simple.
#1...the poor have always voted Democratic and they are still poor.
#2...Obama and McCain have both made their first presidential decision. Obama picked
Joe Biden (who says he hasn't changed in 30 years and never will) for his VP on his
Change platform. McCain has picked Palin. In the last 30 years 3 of the last 5 presidents
have been Governors not one was a senator. A Governor is more qualified to be
president then a senator any day, and McCain knows that We Know That.
We have been dealt this deal and have to play it too the end.
But write this in your log book, if McCain is too be our next president and I hope so.
He will be (I think) a one term president. If so, in 2012, I see Palin and Hillary going
at it.....as Obama will become another Al Gore....now won't that be exciting as hell.
thopkins22
10-08-08, 11:12
- VOTE McCain !! He is honest as the day is long and that is enough change for me. Sure dude...he was TOTALLY honest about the whole Charles Keating deal.:p
I dont know the age of some here ?
but maybe they did not live through the AWB ?
maybe they were never old enough to have friends dads from WWII or Vietnam and realize what this freedom really is about !
or need to sit down with some WWII vets to get a new perspective on this country ?
My father served during Vietnam and my grandfather fought and was injured in WWII. How is that relevant? It's the not relevant at all. It's good to know when we decided to become an empire...and it's good to know that their generations voted for a metric ton of socialist policies...and it's tragic to hear their stories of loss from the wars. It doesn't change my political philosophy in the slightest...in fact it affirms my beliefs.
JediMindTricks
10-08-08, 11:24
"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -- John Quincy Adams
Exactly. The vote for the lesser of the two evils has to stop here if ever. WAR RON PAUL!!!
decodeddiesel
10-08-08, 11:26
Spin it however you please, but when it comes down to it you've got two choices:
Oppose Obama
Help Obama
Sadly, this is all too true. I agree,McCain was the wrong candidate for the GOP, and up until recently I was set on a write in for Congressman Ron Paul. However I have come to realize that given just how close this election is bound to be if you're not voting McCain/Palin you might as well be voting Obama/Biden (my stomach turns just thinking about those 2).
Sure dude...he was TOTALLY honest about the whole Charles Keating deal.:p
I don't know, I just read up on it and it seems that he severed all relationships with Keating once it looked like Keating was looking for favors. McCain refused to do the favors.
Most historians who look back at it think that McCain was kept in the investigation so that there would be a Republican in it.
My father served during Vietnam and my grandfather fought and was injured in WWII. How is that relevant? It's the not relevant at all. It's good to know when we decided to become an empire...and it's good to know that their generations voted for a metric ton of socialist policies...and it's tragic to hear their stories of loss from the wars. It doesn't change my political philosophy in the slightest...in fact it affirms my beliefs.
Exactly. The vote for the lesser of the two evils has to stop here if ever. WAR RON PAUL!!!
Principles are not guided by words, but by actions. If your principles help elect a marxist who will turn the US into a banana republic, what sort of principles are those?
Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 11:34
Well, there's two people I am personally going to thank publicly for the next gun control legislation that is passed right here on this forum if Obama wins. While I'm at it, I will thank them for the socialized medicine, moronic energy plan ran by the Sierra Club, and the soon to be liberal Supreme Court.
Thanks, guys:D
I understand people’s discontentment for always feeling like they’re voting for the lesser of two evils. But isn’t that the nature of gov’t itself? We choose people and put them in power with trust they’ll represent our best interests as a whole, and with hope they maintain order in a way that doesn’t infringe on our lives too much, because we don’t like the alternatives: chaotic anarchy or totalitarian dictatorship.
Let’s be realistic – if we all required a candidate that matched our beliefs exactly, there’d be about a 200 candidates on the ballot, and we’d have a 10 year cycle of run-offs until it finally came down to 2 candidates…who would probably be fairly moderate, and then we’d all bitch about picking the lesser of two evils. Sounds familiar.
We’ve got the candidates that we’ve got, because that’s who the people have chosen. Sucks, doesn’t it? Welcome to the tyranny of the majority. All those clueless masses we get so frustrated with, are picking our leaders. These guys didn’t come out of nowhere, this is the product of decades of decay.
Voting your principles is great. Just be sure you understand what they really are. My principle is to get the best man on the ballot into the office. From the initial hats being thrown in the ring, to the primaries, to the general election, that’s what it’s all about. One of those guys is going to be president. Cowboy the frak up, and deal with it. Vote to support McCain/Palin. Vote to deny Obama/Biden. Write your own damn name in, I don’t care. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
I just know I won’t sleep at all with Obama/Biden in power.
eta: I really just can’t fathom this train of thought. We all agree that Obama’s got all the wrong answers. I’d say most of us don’t agree with him on ANY of his policies. McCain is missing the boat on some areas and okay on others. But is he not better than Obama? It’s going to be one or the other. Is this really that hard of a concept?
JediMindTricks
10-08-08, 11:59
Principles are not guided by words, but by actions. If your principles help elect a marxist who will turn the US into a banana republic, what sort of principles are those?
My principles are the same as Mr. Ron Paul's, hence my choice to vote for him. Everyone else's principles seem to be based on political affiliation versus true constitutional ideals like those of Ron Paul's. If any of you have ever heard this man speak then you would know that he is the only one that truly cares about this nation. I think people's biggest beef with RP is that he didn't support the Iraq war.... That's it. This is what makes him "crazy", or "radical", or "unpatriotic" (the last one is laughable seeing how this guy cares about your individual freedoms more than any of these clowns). No one else has anything on him other than lack of support for the war, which as an American he has a total right not to support it if he so chooses. He truly loves his country and so do I, and this is why I'm voting for him.
A vote for Ron Paul is the same as voting Obama.
Voting choices
1 - McCain (Liberal Republican)
2- Obama (Extreme Liberal Democrat / Socialist)
3 - R. Paul (independent who will siphon a few key votes from McCain)
In an ideal situation you should vote for the candidate you think will do the best job.
This is NOT an ideal situation. You have to vote for one of 2 candidate who actually have a chance of winning.
Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 12:05
And RP has a snowball's chance in hell of getting the Presidency. Talk about a wasted, futile, worthless gesture.
Business_Casual
10-08-08, 12:10
We live in a State (Nation) with a two-party system. Voting 3rd party or "protest voting" demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of how our system works.
If you want a European-style democracy, then by all means amend the constitution and elect Green Party and Social Democrats. But this voter, in this Federal Republic, understands it is a two-party system and will vote for the lesser of two evils because that is reality.
Don't bother with mentioning the Bull Moose Party or other historical nonsense.
M_P
My principles are the same as Mr. Ron Paul's, hence my choice to vote for him.
So your principles are to get a marxist elected?
Everyone else's principles seem to be based on political affiliation versus true constitutional ideals like those of Ron Paul's. If any of you have ever heard this man speak then you would know that he is the only one that truly cares about this nation.
No, he is not.
I think people's biggest beef with RP is that he didn't support the Iraq war.... That's it. This is what makes him "crazy", or "radical", or "unpatriotic" (the last one is laughable seeing how this guy cares about your individual freedoms more than any of these clowns). No one else has anything on him other than lack of support for the war, which as an American he has a total right not to support it if he so chooses. He truly loves his country and so do I, and this is why I'm voting for him.
If you truly loved the country, you would not vote for RP. Because by doing so, you are contributing to a marxist getting elected. Some principles you have. The EFFECTS of your actions speak much more loudly than your words.
It is fine to vote for RP in the primaries, but once he lost, you need to move on. He is not in the election anymore.
People who claim to be "principled" and hence voting for RP or Barr or Baldwin or whatever else also-ran nobody they claim to like, are not principled, they are selfish individuals who think that their "principles" are more important than their neighbors well being, than the country, than anything.
A vote for any of these has-been nobodies does not send a message. It does not do anything constructive except stroke your ego and selfishness and it helps to elect a marxist. It does not help or further the cause of freedom and liberty.
I've been down that road. I voted for Harry Brown and other LP candidates. It did nothing. It did NOT send any message.
If you want to truly make a difference, support your local LP/CP/libertarian or conservative candidates and build a local party that can lead to state and then national party strength. You cannot change the country from the top-down. You need to start at the bottom. But if you let the country fall so far with the marxist, it may be too late.
I don't have anything against Ron Paul, personally. This isn't an attack on him or people who agree with him.
Regardless, Ron Paul was running for president. He did not make it through the primaries. He is no longer running for president. At least not on a scale thats much larger than the campaign I am running for president.
Either McCain or Obama will be the next POTUS. It may suck, but it's reality.
Maybe McCain will be an awful president. Definitely Obama will. If I gave you the choice between one round of Russian Roulette, or the firing squad....wouldn't you take your chances with the revolver?
JediMindTricks
10-08-08, 12:16
I understand people’s discontentment for always feeling like they’re voting for the lesser of two evils. But isn’t that the nature of gov’t itself? We choose people and put them in power with trust they’ll represent our best interests as a whole, and with hope they maintain order in a way that doesn’t infringe on our lives too much, because we don’t like the alternatives: chaotic anarchy or totalitarian dictatorship.
Let’s be realistic – if we all required a candidate that matched our beliefs exactly, there’d be about a 200 candidates on the ballot, and we’d have a 10 year cycle of run-offs until it finally came down to 2 candidates…who would probably be fairly moderate, and then we’d all bitch about picking the lesser of two evils. Sounds familiar.
We’ve got the candidates that we’ve got, because that’s who the people have chosen. Sucks, doesn’t it? Welcome to the tyranny of the majority. All those clueless masses we get so frustrated with, are picking our leaders. These guys didn’t come out of nowhere, this is the product of decades of decay.
Voting your principles is great. Just be sure you understand what they really are. My principle is to get the best man on the ballot into the office. From the initial hats being thrown in the ring, to the primaries, to the general election, that’s what it’s all about. One of those guys is going to be president. Cowboy the frak up, and deal with it. Vote to support McCain/Palin. Vote to deny Obama/Biden. Write your own damn name in, I don’t care. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
I just know I won’t sleep at all with Obama/Biden in power.
I know exactly what you're saying but it's hard man.... It's really REALLY FRICKIN HARD when you see your country falling apart and you know that the guy you want to win really, truly cares, and is going through the same frustrations you are.... I have seen him addressing congress with really important issues, many of which we aren't being made fully aware of, and it is as if he is taken as a joke.... He predicted all of this mess would happen, and I'm sure he wasn't taken seriously then. I am just tired of all the BS man. I am 26 and I have a full life to live. I want to live it in relative calm with elected officials that are trust worthy, and have a genuine interest in the people, and the people's individual liberties. Not always worrying about what my future will look like because of the misfits we have in office that create laws that change our lives for the worst. I want liberty.
Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 12:17
Ron Paul also declared his desire that his candidacy not fragment the party and so lead to a repeat of the '92 Clinto/Ross Perot disaster for the conservatives.
He's not even running. He did not secure the candidacy.
JediMindTricks
10-08-08, 12:18
So your principles are to get a marxist elected?
No, he is not.
If you truly loved the country, you would not vote for RP. Because by doing so, you are contributing to a marxist getting elected. Some principles you have. The EFFECTS of your actions speak much more loudly than your words.
It is fine to vote for RP in the primaries, but once he lost, you need to move on. He is not in the election anymore.
People who claim to be "principled" and hence voting for RP or Barr or Baldwin or whatever else also-ran nobody they claim to like, are not principled, they are selfish individuals who think that their "principles" are more important than their neighbors well being, than the country, than anything.
A vote for any of these has-been nobodies does not send a message. It does not do anything constructive except stroke your ego and selfishness and it helps to elect a marxist. It does not help or further the cause of freedom and liberty.
I've been down that road. I voted for Harry Brown and other LP candidates. It did nothing. It did NOT send any message.
If you want to truly make a difference, support your local LP/CP/libertarian or conservative candidates and build a local party that can lead to state and then national party strength. You cannot change the country from the top-down. You need to start at the bottom. But if you let the country fall so far with the marxist, it may be too late.
I see what you're saying. I know I have to give it more thought.
thopkins22
10-08-08, 12:19
This is all irrelevant because Ron Paul dropped out of the race. He's publicly stated that if you aren't going to vote for McCain then look at one of the third parties...not him.
LOKNLOD:How dare you inject common sense into this debate!:D
John McCain is better than Obama. I think we can all agree on that fact. I think part of the problem for people though is that the issues they share similar opinions on are big f-ing issues.
I've come to the conclusion that the RP voters here would have made great Soviet generals at the beginning of WW2 or that they would have been great Hitlers (from a military leadership view, NOT a political nazi fascist view).
Both groups were great (NOT) military leaders who believed in "holding at all costs" and "no surrender, no retreat" policies. They neither understood nor implemented tactical maneuver or strategic thinking.
John McCain is better than Obama. I think we can all agree on that fact. I think part of the problem for people though is that the issues they share similar opinions on are big f-ing issues.
Except they really don't, except in the broadest sense.
McCain is under the mistaken belief that it would be his job to fix things -- use government to help people.
Obama believes in transforming government to be the overwhelming power and factor in every day life. In making the state the most important thing.
Superficially they might look similar, but the effects are probably very different.
McCain makes a lot of decisions based on solving the problems of the country (based on his mistaken believe it is his job).
Obama makes decisions that centralize the power in the government for the sake of power
If you truly loved the country, you would not vote for RP.
You've got to be kidding me!?!?
I'm flippin' tired of the scare tactics folks. America will get what she bloody well deserves, and if that's Obama then it's friggin' Obama. My integrity means more to me than wishing away the fact this nation is dead and the Constitution it was built upon has been trivialized.
If you really believe I am afraid of what will happen if Obama becomes POTUS, then you are most sadly mistaken.
I will vote my conscience and I will do it with honor, not out of fear!
Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 12:47
You've got to be kidding me!?!?
I'm flippin' tired of the scare tactics folks. America will get what she bloody well deserves, and if that's Obama then it's friggin' Obama. My integrity means more to me than wishing away the fact this nation is dead and the Constitution it was built upon has been trivialized.
If you really believe I am afraid of what will happen if Obama becomes POTUS, then you are most sadly mistaken.
I will vote my conscience and I will do it with honor, not out of fear!
What, do you have dreams of the gov't coming to confiscate your guns and you standing your ground? It won't happen that way.
You have a chance right now to ensure our right to keep and bear arms and instead you have this noble delusion that voting your futile choice and helping us all lose our rights is somehow the right thing. You could just stay home and have the exact same effect. RP doesn't want you to vote for him.
You've got to be kidding me!?!?
NO, you've got to be kidding me.
I'm flippin' tired of the scare tactics folks. America will get what she bloody well deserves, and if that's Obama then it's friggin' Obama. My integrity means more to me than wishing away the fact this nation is dead and the Constitution it was built upon has been trivialized.
Your integrity is nothing. It is worthless. If your integrity means that you vote to allow a marxist to take power and really flush the toilet, I want none of your integrity. It is selfish and delusional.
If you really believe I am afraid of what will happen if Obama becomes POTUS, then you are most sadly mistaken.
I will vote my conscience and I will do it with honor, not out of fear!
You will be an idiot, much like the Soviet generals or Hitler (as military commander).
I am 26 and I have a full life to live.... I want liberty.
I completely understand where you're coming from.
I'm 26 too. I have a daughter that's almost 2. My wife is 6 weeks or so pregnant again. Looking at how different the world is now, versus when I was little, it's amazing for far we've fallen in the past 20 years. (I'm sure every generation says that). I would give anything for my children to be raised with the liberties I knew, the attitudes and ideals that I remember. It frustrates me to no end to see our generation take a crap on everything our country has stood for, and all in the name of selfish convenience.
I can literally let it make me sick, if I allow it to...but that solves nothing.
But what I can do is work hard, teach my kids right, lead my family as best I can, and be a man about it. (note: I mean a real man, not a "watch sports and drink beer" man or "spend 2 weeks a year hunting in the wood with my buddies" man). Vote. Campaign. Spread the word. Network with like-minded folks. Fight the good fight on a small scale. Pay your debts. Help your neighbors. Keep your word. Save money. Spend money, too. And have a helluva good time through it all.
No one is going to "secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our prosterity" for me. It's up to me to handle it myself. Our nation may have lost sight of that a long time ago, but if they're sitting and waiting on someone else to do the work, God help 'em...because nobody else will. May their chains rest lightly and their master's whip strike softly. I'm securing my own future as best I can.
And I can do it better with McCain in office than with Obama.
I am 26 and I have a full life to live. I want to live it in relative calm with elected officials that are trust worthy, and have a genuine interest in the people, and the people's individual liberties. Not always worrying about what my future will look like because of the misfits we have in office that create laws that change our lives for the worst. I want liberty.
I am 42 going on 43. I was 26 the year Bill Clinton got elected. I too wanted (and still want) what you want. I joined the LP. I gave money. I voted for Harry Brown.
Life went on its merry way no matter what I did on the fringe. I have an 8 month old and a 5 year old now. (I got started late ;) ). I want them to have a better world than I have. In the last 17 years, I have also learned that "radicalism" does not get you anywhere. You have to work with the dice that you roll; the hand that you draw, and make the best of it. Wishing for a full house or a royal flush or a pair of ones (I don't gamble so excuse me if I have the dice wrong) might make you feel better but does not change the situation.
Work to change things, but work with the situation as it exists. You will have more luck. Don't give up, but don't waste your effort either. Get involved. At the local level. Changing your neighbors attitudes on local issues will carry over to national issues.
My principles are the same as Mr. Ron Paul's, hence my choice to vote for him. Everyone else's principles seem to be based on political affiliation versus true constitutional ideals like those of Ron Paul's.
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/normal_koolaid.jpg
If any of you have ever heard this man speak then you would know that he is the only one that truly cares about this nation.
Yeah, if John McCain has proved one thing in his lifetime, it's that he's not willing to make an effort for his country. :rolleyes:
If Obama personally sends you a thank-you note, cherish it. You earned it.
What, do you have dreams of the gov't coming to confiscate your guns and you standing your ground?
Not hardly. I know what the probabilities are and they don't concern me.
You have a chance right now to ensure our right to keep and bear arms
You mean my right to carry a weapon with me at all times? Or the right to purchase a new model select fire weapon? Neither my vote, or any of the two primary candidates, or the majority of the Congress, or the SCOTUS will ensure that, because we've already ignored the Constitution. Our willful decision to set aside the fundemental premise of the Constitution leaves me with no assurance of anything within it, regardless of my vote.
I do not fear Obama as POTUS and I don't fear a Democrat controlled congress. The issues, that are at the heart of this nation's ills, go far deeper than politics. The worldview, held by most Americans and western culture, is at the core of this nation's problems. And that ain't gonna get changed by some vote.
MarshallDodge
10-08-08, 13:13
For those of you that are upset with John McCain, I feel your pain, but Ron Paul is not going to get elected because this country is teetering on socialism. Most of us on this forum agree with what Dr. Paul has to say but we are a small voice in a sea of people.
The only reason I am voting for McCain is Sarah Palin. The more I hear her talk, the more I realize that she is one of us. She is our only hope for a future.
Like I have said before, I have lived through the Clinton years. We are still paying for that mistake. Let's not allow it to happen again.
2 words: Electoral College
A 3rd party candidate will garner enough support to win exactly 0 electors to the electoral college. As the popular votes are tallied in the "battleground" states the votes for a 3rd party candidate will only hurt McCain (lesser of the 2 evils) who sorely needs support in thses states. The candidate that wins the popular vote in a state wins all of that states electors. Does anyone believe that RP or any other 3rd party candidate can win the popular vote in ANY state?
My principles are the same as Mr. Ron Paul's, hence my choice to vote for him. Everyone else's principles seem to be based on political affiliation versus true constitutional ideals like those of Ron Paul's. If any of you have ever heard this man speak then you would know that he is the only one that truly cares about this nation. I think people's biggest beef with RP is that he didn't support the Iraq war.... That's it. This is what makes him "crazy", or "radical", or "unpatriotic" (the last one is laughable seeing how this guy cares about your individual freedoms more than any of these clowns). No one else has anything on him other than lack of support for the war, which as an American he has a total right not to support it if he so chooses. He truly loves his country and so do I, and this is why I'm voting for him.
My "beefs" with Ron Paul are the messianic properties attributed to him by his followers, his gimmick of always opposing federal action, unless it supports him (like earmarks for shrimp farmers in his district, based on logic that should have seen him support the bailout), and his blame America for 9/11 comments during the debates. Yes, I know how he spun it later, but I tend to think he spoke his true feelings first.
Like I have said before, I have lived through the Clinton years. We are still paying for that mistake. Let's not allow it to happen again.
Actually, we are still living through the FDR, LBJ and Carter mistakes as well. Clinton only compounded the problem. Obama will finish it off.
Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 13:20
Not hardly. I know what the probabilities are and they don't concern me.
You mean my right to carry a weapon with me at all times? Or the right to purchase a new model select fire weapon? Neither my vote, or any of the two primary candidates, or the majority of the Congress, or the SCOTUS will ensure that, because we've already ignored the Constitution. Our willful decision to set aside the fundemental premise of the Constitution leaves me with no assurance of anything within it, regardless of my vote.
I do not fear Obama as POTUS and I don't fear a Democrat controlled congress. The issues, that are at the heart of this nation's ills, go far deeper than politics. The worldview, held by most Americans and western culture, is at the core of this nation's problems. And that ain't gonna get changed by some vote.
Actually, your rights can be changed by a vote. Do you need historical examples or are you going to blather on about how you just don't fear anything? Obama will appoint Supreme Court justices that agree with him that the Constitution is a "living document," a document that can be changed. McCain does feel that way and he will appoint conservative Supreme Court justices. If there is anything not clear about the last two sentences, let me know and I will rephrase them.
Obama as President will directly affect your pocketbook and your rights. Ready for socialist medicine? Ready for ammunition microstamping?
You need to start thinking practical instead of having visions of some stupid, worthless, futile last stand in the name of Ron Paul.
theJanitor
10-08-08, 13:20
Does anyone believe that RP or any other 3rd party candidate can win the popular vote in ANY state?
Nobody here is that naive, it's about voting on PRINCIPLE or PRACTICALITY, it's about voting for IDEALS or for an OUTCOME, and in the end, it's about Obama or McCain
I do not fear Obama as POTUS and I don't fear a Democrat controlled congress. The issues, that are at the heart of this nation's ills, go far deeper than politics. The worldview, held by most Americans and western culture, is at the core of this nation's problems. And that ain't gonna get changed by some vote.
Were I an older man, I would be more likely to share your viewpoint. But if, as you've said before, that stench we all smell is America's rotting corpse, then I just want to perfume it long enough stay in the room till I'm done in here. It may smell and taste bad but I'm not ready to give up and surrender it to the maggots yet. I've got a lot staked on this ol' corpse. Maybe someday we can resurrect it...not soon, but someday...but that'll never happen if we let it burn before then. It's all we've got.
This reminds me of the "I bought a Bushmaster carbine now tell me why Noveske would be better type of thread". You already know the answer but you come and ask anyways. I am certainly no fan of McCain and though Palin seems to be a good V.P choice as someone that we can relate to, Obama/Biden are socialist/liberals who represent absolutley nothing that I believe in. Do I like Bob Barr? yes, is he realistically going to win and defend my gun rights as well as a hundred other things I would like him to do? No. Because he can't win and neither can Ron Paul.
So you have to be realistic and vote for the ones who best serve what you believe. With our system of gov't not voting basically gives a vote to the other side. Voting for a 3rd party does the same. At the end of the day you need to ask yourself if you voted in a way that would mean something or was it you being selfish and being thrown away.
One thing for sure is that we all know what Obama/ Biden are about. I don't need to be beat over the head to find outt he hard way.
mccain did a hell of a lot better than bush did in any of his debates. :D
on teh downside-your choices are now-the liberals, or the slightly different liberals :o
although my parents were both hippie liberal freaks, i have been a fairly conservative repubilcan as far as i can remember. i looked forward to becommign a registered republican on my 18th birthday and have voted in nearly as many elections i was eligible for (missed a primary or 2).
i believe in big business and small govenrntment. even my liberal parents believed in the "every man for himself" principle. my father prepared me to earn for myself from an early age. i have never understood why people can insist that those who work hard and earn their money "donate" it to those who do not. i have had this argument plenty of times with my socialist-er, liberal friends. generally they have come from money and not had to earn it.
that being said, i think you can understand where i must cast my vote. even though what was once cast as a battleground state, PA has recently shifted to Sen. Obama by appx 14% in the latest poll i will still vote republican. while the obama supporters have been out in force and have registered hundreds of thousands of PA democrats, they cannot force them to the polling place and cannot pull the lever for them. this is my hope! also, polling numbers are not always what they indicate
http://www.gradethenews.org/pages2/Pollstory1.htm
pay particular attention to the section labeled "Many assumptions violated". i think this year would be the best example of telling a pollster the politically correct thing
Believe it or not, these arguments about living with the reality, making sure the right SCOTUS judges are appointed, voting for the lesser of two evils, etc. only go to solidify my belief that this nation is dead. Like I've stated before, I honestly have better ways to spend my time and resources than to attempt to resurrect a corpse.
As for McCain, what do you honestly believe he's going to do with a Democrat controlled congress? And it will be Democrat controlled at the end of the day on November 4.
My father served during Vietnam and my grandfather fought and was injured in WWII. How is that relevant? It's the not relevant at all. It's good to know when we decided to become an empire...and it's good to know that their generations voted for a metric ton of socialist policies...and it's tragic to hear their stories of loss from the wars. It doesn't change my political philosophy in the slightest...in fact it affirms my beliefs.
well sounds like you have your viewpoint !!!!
I guess the guys I talked to saw things dif than you do !
try to understand it from the point of we can see in history countries that wanted to control its people with taking away weapons and rights and what happened to those countries !
you have your viewpoints I have mine
I do believe we can look at history of countries and what they have done as a good way that we dont want to go !!!!!
Rmplstlskn
10-08-08, 15:44
Well, there's two people I am personally going to thank publicly for the next gun control legislation that is passed right here on this forum if Obama wins. While I'm at it, I will thank them for the socialized medicine, moronic energy plan ran by the Sierra Club, and the soon to be liberal Supreme Court.
Thanks, guys:D
Personally, the 2nd Amendment is not the primary (or even secondary) concern for me in this election... The SA is the self-evident byproduct of true liberty and freedom, and if that fails it becomes the teeth of liberty. It alone means diddly-squat!
I truly believe that McCain is CLUELESS about economics and market systems, and it seems his advisers are just as clueless (or worse, corrupted capitalists/lobbyists). I truly believe a McCain Presidency will DESTROY this country financially, just as an Obama Presidency will, and thus bring our country down into the flames the Roman Empire once fell into. If that happens, the SA won't be anything more than ink on a piece of paper...
Clue #1: McCain has no other name than an eBay CEO as a possible Treasury Secretary?!?!?! :confused: Come on! In this time of dire financial woes, he hasn't come up with anyone better than that!!!! God help us...
Clue #2: He was for the Bailout...
Clue #3: He wants to buy up bad mortgages... No serious economist believes that will do anything for HOUSING VALUES. Actually, the exact opposite!
Clue #4: Every single economic question he was given was answered with sound-byte foolishness or exposed his utter rejection of free-market capitalism.
I could go on and on... :(
Sadly, BOTH candidates will take us down into financial collapse and then governmental reconstruction, most likely authoritarian in design. So what if McCain doesn't pass an AWB, as the US of A we know and love will be burning into the trash pile of history, as BOTH candidates will take us there... Obama; by design and McCain; by pure ignorance and stupidity...
So I say, if BOTH PARTIES are going to bring this demise upon us, let them. But I will not be party to it by voting for the candidate who is less likely to ban guns... As if those laws would matter when Rome burns... I'll just ride it out the best I can and hopeful be around to help rebuild it PROPERLY based on the ideals and doctrines of our founders, but even that scenario has the odds against us.
I know I am in a gun board, but I hope the tunnel vision is not widespread... For if Martial Law was ever imposed (as some Congressmen were told would happen if the bailout failed), then the SA is null and void and the least of our worries...
Rmpl
Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 15:52
Believe it or not, these arguments about living with the reality, making sure the right SCOTUS judges are appointed, voting for the lesser of two evils, etc. only go to solidify my belief that this nation is dead. Like I've stated before, I honestly have better ways to spend my time and resources than to attempt to resurrect a corpse.
As for McCain, what do you honestly believe he's going to do with a Democrat controlled congress? And it will be Democrat controlled at the end of the day on November 4.
Good lord. You want to wake and smell the coffee? Trying comparing the rights you have here in this nation right here and now to other nations. And you don't want to do a damned thing but yammer on about how it's already over. You might as well dress up in a clown suit and stay at home on election day; that will do as much good as what you're planning.
Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 15:55
Rmpl, what about McCain's energy policy did you not like? Do you understand how much said energy policy could help our economy?
Rmplstlskn
10-08-08, 16:08
Rmpl, what about McCain's energy policy did you not like? Do you understand how much said energy policy could help our economy?
Besides fossil fuels, and to a lesser extent nuclear, they both are very similar... I truly believe the economic collapse that looks more and more likely will force BOTH to drill for more oil and use more coal, whether they like it or not... It will be either that or a total societal collapse due to unaffordable energy. Neither want that and will do what is needed (drill, dig and nuke it)... but all three take time.
Rmpl
thopkins22
10-08-08, 16:08
you have your viewpoints I have mine
I do believe we can look at history of countries and what they have done as a good way that we dont want to go !!!!!
Our viewpoints on most issues are probably quite similar.
Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 17:10
Besides fossil fuels, and to a lesser extent nuclear, they both are very similar... I truly believe the economic collapse that looks more and more likely will force BOTH to drill for more oil and use more coal, whether they like it or not... It will be either that or a total societal collapse due to unaffordable energy. Neither want that and will do what is needed (drill, dig and nuke it)... but all three take time.
Rmpl
They are not "very similar" and you don't know what you're talking about. McCain is indeed for drilling, nuking, and digging.
You might as well dress up in a clown suit and stay at home on election day; that will do as much good as what you're planning.
Actually, I'd prefer to start taking direct action, but I would just get labelled a terrorist and we know how that would end up. (So much for the precious Second Amendment.)
So, I'll just continue to piss off those who believe that you have to vote for a Republican or a Democrat, or you're an idiot, by voting for someone other than what the GOP and Dems have offered me.
I'm so sick of the media's complete adoration for obamadinajhad that I'd like to line every damn one of them up and kick 'em in the nuts. Unforunately I'd have to pry every damn one of them of obama's knob first. The only thing that allows me to keep my daily sanity is the fact that they ****ed up hillarys coronation and confirms they suck at fortune telling.
Littlelebowski
10-08-08, 17:30
Actually, I'd prefer to start taking direct action, but I would just get labelled a terrorist and we know how that would end up. (So much for the precious Second Amendment.)
So, I'll just continue to piss off those who believe that you have to vote for a Republican or a Democrat, or you're an idiot, by voting for someone other than what the GOP and Dems have offered me.
So, who would you take "direct action" against? I assume you have a list?
So, I'll just continue to piss off those who believe that you have to vote for a Republican or a Democrat, or you're an idiot, by voting for someone other than what the GOP and Dems have offered me.
People who piss into the wind more than once generally are considered that.
CarlosDJackal
10-08-08, 22:22
"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -- John Quincy Adams
Principle isn't going to prevent that POS scumbag commie racist from imposing a PERMANENT ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN (as he's indicated he is 100% for), anymore than it prevented slick willy klinton from imposing the "temporary" (which unfortunately has become permanenet in some states).
When you have to march down to your local "Gun Turn-in" office, remembr just how voting on "principle" helped make it happen. :rolleyes:
Is a good Economy really that much more important than maintaining our Cosntitutional Freedoms? :confused:
Some thoughts from Chuck Baldwin, Presidential candidate for the Constitution Party, on the issue of voting for the lesser of two evils from a Christian perspective.
"Most everyone, including Christian people, realize that our country is in a mess. They readily agree that a divine healing is needed. They even use the great stories and examples of the Bible to teach our boys and girls how to obey and trust God. They extol the examples of Daniel, the three Hebrew children, Simon Peter and the Apostles, etc. They use these stories to illustrate the importance of putting obedience to God and God's principles above the machinations and demands of men.
When it comes to voting for and supporting candidates who have proven themselves to be unfaithful to the fundamental principles of liberty and good government, however, these same Christians suddenly become enamored with "the lesser of two evils," and pragmatism. Doing right gives way to being "practical," and standing for principle gives way to "not throwing my vote away."
Had Daniel been "practical," he would have stopped praying for a few weeks and stayed out of the lions' den. Had the three Hebrew children been "pragmatic," they would have given a symbolic bow to the statue of Nebuchadnezzar. And I can just hear Christians living in the First Century talking about how they would vote for Nero over Caligula, as he would be "the lesser of two evils."
And from our own history, had America's Founding Fathers heeded the advice of the "experts" and pundits, they would never have signed the Declaration of Independence and fought a war for independence. Absolutely no one gave those brave patriots any chance--any chance--of victory.
Yet, both secular and sacred history are replete with the examples of brave men and women who were willing to defy the conventional wisdom and understanding of their times to stand boldly and courageously for the principles of truth and freedom. In fact, people who dared to defy the accepted wisdom of their age almost always accomplished the truly great exploits of history. Christians, among all people, should know this best.
How has it happened, then, that Christians cannot find the courage and resolve to support principle above political partisanship? How is it that we have come to embrace "the lesser of two evils" as a legitimate philosophy of voting? How is it that our spiritual leaders seem to be more concerned about being politically correct than they are about being Biblically correct?
I believe that God is waiting for His people in America to do what He told Jeremiah's generation to do: live and act according to His principles and trust Him with the result. Instead, many of us seem to be doing exactly what Jeremiah's generation did: we want to be pragmatic and wise in our own eyes and do it our way.
Think what God might do in our land today if every Christian, every God-fearing man and woman in America, would simply vote their principles every time they walked into a voting booth, even if the candidate had "no chance" of winning and whether he or she was told they would be "wasting" their vote or not. I wonder what God might do? (Besides, when we vote for evil, what exactly have we "won," even if they are victorious?)
I am reminded of one of my all-time favorite quotes spoken by John Quincy Adams. He said, "Duty is ours; results are God's."
When people--especially Christian people--start doing their duty and standing for truth and principle, whether it is considered politically incorrect, or unpopular, or "naïve," or anything else; then, and only then, will God give us the results that will bring healing and restoration of our land.
So, how many of us will determine to do our duty? Or, how many of us will say, "There is no hope in doing it God's way; I will rely upon men's devices and do it their way"? The way we answer that question will largely determine America's future--for good or for bad.
KintlaLake
10-08-08, 23:55
Rmpl, rmecapn & Leonidas: You have my respect.
I'll edit this all out...and just leave this
the enemy of my enemy is my friend....
well, you third party guys are friend's of Obama....sleep well
I'm tired of our one party system :D
Guys there is alot of bickering going on here we are all on the same side aren't we? I believe "Rome is Burning" I truly believe that we are living in the last decades of the U.S. of A. The nation is divided this is sure when less than half of us pay taxes(curently around %55) then the slide into socialism will be complete. For those of us that live in border states w/ Mexico as soon as the hispanic population reaches say %55-60 percent they will control all of state and local governments and will not be kind to us. Anyone not understanding this should look at any South Texas town if you are not hispanic the chances of you getting elected to any office are essentially nil. Trying to attain any public sector jobs will be almost nil unless you are of course hispanic. They have made it clear that they want their language and culture established as the preeminent in the South West. The La Raza folks and Aztlan movement want to secede and be part of Mexico and in about 25-35 years that could probably happen.
Littlelebowski
10-09-08, 07:07
HughJass, you might put a little more thought into things before tarring everybody with the same brush. My father-in-law is Hispanic, conservative, running for Mayor in Southern California, has the endorsement of the Republican party, is a Life member of the NRA, and packs a 1911. He's also a retired full bird Colonel in the Marines.
I certainly did not mean to suggest that I somehow dislike or hate hispanics. My brother in law is hispanic and he is an amazing guy (anyone that would put up w/ my sister would have to be) I am a sixth generation native Texan and I live right in the middle of it. Sure there are plenty of Spanish and Mexican Amerians that are great people; patriotic, honest, hard working I didn't mean to suggest that. However, the people that have been streaming across the border for the last 20 years have made clear that they have contempt for the establishment. They refuse to learn our language and refuse to assimilate into our culture. I should stop here because I didn't want this to disolve into a debate about our immigration policies. As I stated before I feel we are living in the last decades of the United States that is all I meant.
Robb Jensen
10-09-08, 07:28
Guys there is alot of bickering going on here we are all on the same side aren't we? I believe "Rome is Burning" I truly believe that we are living in the last decades of the U.S. of A. The nation is divided this is sure when less than half of us pay taxes(curently around %55) then the slide into socialism will be complete. For those of us that live in border states w/ Mexico as soon as the hispanic population reaches say %55-60 percent they will control all of state and local governments and will not be kind to us. Anyone not understanding this should look at any South Texas town if you are not hispanic the chances of you getting elected to any office are essentially nil. Trying to attain any public sector jobs will be almost nil unless you are of course hispanic. They have made it clear that they want their language and culture established as the preeminent in the South West. The La Raza folks and Aztlan movement want to secede and be part of Mexico and in about 25-35 years that could probably happen.
Be VERY CAREFUL with the anti-hispanic rhetoric.
Just because someone is hispanic does not make them automatically a democrat or liberal. Someones race does not dictate if they are liberal or conservative or useless or lazy or whatever else labels people put on other people.
Some people like me are hispanic. My father is hispanic (Mexican from CA, were there since the early 1800s) and Apache (from AZ, harder to trace because they didn't want to claim being indian but oldest known was in the mid 1700s) but you wouldn't know it by the color of my skin since my mother is German, Russian & Belgian. My father is conservative probably even more than me in many ways. My mother on the other hand is much more liberal.
FWIW much of the southwestern part of the U.S. was Mexico for 100s of years before it became the U.S.
Submariner
10-09-08, 08:00
FWIW much of the southwestern part of the U.S. was Mexico for 100s of years before it became the U.S.
Interesting use of passive voice. What wasn't conquered, we bought.
I'm tired of our one party system :D
You mean CFR Team "A" and CFR Team "B"?
Last time it was Skull & Bones Party "A" and Skull and Bones Party "B"?
Samo-samo.
Littlelebowski
10-09-08, 08:03
You guys refusing to vote for the pro-gun candidate in this extremely close race give full meaning to the term "cutting your nose off to spite your face".
HughJass, you might put a little more thought into things before tarring everybody with the same brush. My father-in-law is Hispanic, conservative, running for Mayor in Southern California, has the endorsement of the Republican party, is a Life member of the NRA, and packs a 1911. He's also a retired full bird Colonel in the Marines.
Mind if I say a prayer for his victory? Also, extend my thanks for being one of the good guys in a cesspool.
Littlelebowski
10-09-08, 09:29
Mind if I say a prayer for his victory? Also, extend my thanks for being one of the good guys in a cesspool.
No prob and thanks. Here's (http://rockyforoceanside.com) his website.
First, I appreciate Leonidas interjecting the Christian perspective. I’m humbled because in my previous statements about “securing my own blessings” while my intent was to assert that I could not rely on any man or gov’t to do it for me, I didn’t credit God’s role in that. Without His guidance and blessings all I’m doing is spinning my earthly wheels. That said…
Voting 3rd party is like standing in front of the lion’s den and choosing God? Please. Mr. Baldwin’s evocation of our favorite Bible stories is moving but not entirely accurate. Someday we’ll all get our chance to stand before the lion’s den or fiery furnace and claim or deny God, but I don’t believe that’s an honest comparison to going to the polls this November.
…by John Quincy Adams. He said, "Duty is ours; results are God's."
Very true. And my duty is to help see the best possible ticket elected to lead this land. Since that’ll either be McCain or Obama, I’m going to support McCain. One man loves this country but he needs guidance in the best way to lead it. One man has repeatedly demonstrated that hates this country and is apparently hell-bent on doing everything he can to destroy the principles it stands for. God can work with whomever is chosen, but that doesn’t absolve me from my duty of trying to elect the best possible one.
Maybe it’s choosing the lesser of two evils. Maybe it’s combating the greater of two evils. Maybe it’s “threat prioritization”. Call it what you will.
You guys don’t want to go that route, that’s fine. I can respect your decision, and your reasoning, even if I don’t necessarily agree 100%. I’ll leave it at that. I think at heart we’re all on the same side here even if we see it from different angles.
Littlelebowski
10-09-08, 09:36
Every one of you planning to waste your vote on a third party, read the following and ponder it.
“We must hang together, gentlemen, or we will most assuredly hang separately.” – Benjamin Franklin
JediMindTricks
10-09-08, 11:17
I certainly did not mean to suggest that I somehow dislike or hate hispanics. My brother in law is hispanic and he is an amazing guy (anyone that would put up w/ my sister would have to be) I am a sixth generation native Texan and I live right in the middle of it. Sure there are plenty of Spanish and Mexican Amerians that are great people; patriotic, honest, hard working I didn't mean to suggest that. However, the people that have been streaming across the border for the last 20 years have made clear that they have contempt for the establishment. They refuse to learn our language and refuse to assimilate into our culture. I should stop here because I didn't want this to disolve into a debate about our immigration policies. As I stated before I feel we are living in the last decades of the United States that is all I meant.
I agree.
Rmplstlskn
10-09-08, 11:29
Every one of you planning to waste your vote on a third party, read the following and ponder it.
“We must hang together, gentlemen, or we will most assuredly hang separately.” – Benjamin Franklin
Completely out of context...
To use that quote as you intended (just accept the lesser of two evils), Benny would be pleading to keep the colonies from rebelling against King George, thus avoid a revolution (long war with lots of bloodshed).
Rather, it was an admonition to GROW A PAIR and stand for FREEDOM and LIBERTY, no matter the cost...
Rmpl
Robb Jensen
10-09-08, 11:35
Interesting use of passive voice. What wasn't conquered, we bought.
And along with the land came it's people (some of which are Native American and Mexican) and resources, what's your point?
Littlelebowski
10-09-08, 11:45
Completely out of context...
To use that quote as you intended (just accept the lesser of two evils), Benny would be pleading to keep the colonies from rebelling against King George, thus avoid a revolution (long war with lots of bloodshed).
Rather, it was an admonition to GROW A PAIR and stand for FREEDOM and LIBERTY, no matter the cost...
Rmpl
I've got a "PAIR" and I also have enough common sense and brains to realize that we are one of the last countries on earth where you can still own a means to defend yourself against tyranny.
If I were you, I'd keep my mouth shut and not complain on here when your President that you're voting for passes another AWB. How about microstamping? Are you literally that dense that you cannot understand that a vote not for McCain is a vote for Obama? Several people have tried to explain this to you but you just don't get it. You don't. Better a wasted, futile vote and an a socialist gov't with microstamping ammunition laws, no CCW, and an AWB than dealing with McCain, eh?
You make me sick. People like you are going to lose all of our rights. That's what I meant by quoting Franklin whether the hell you think it was out of context or not.
You can yammer on about your ideals all you want but most of us would like to keep the freedoms we have.
Completely out of context...
To use that quote as you intended (just accept the lesser of two evils), Benny would be pleading to keep the colonies from rebelling against King George, thus avoid a revolution (long war with lots of bloodshed).
Rather, it was an admonition to GROW A PAIR and stand for FREEDOM and LIBERTY, no matter the cost...
Rmpl
Quite the contrary. The founders all made compromises in the forming of the country. None of them got exactly what they wanted, but they worked together in the name of actually getting somewhere, instead of getting bogged down in their own differences. His message was one of unity against a larger threat.
"No matter the cost" assumes there is a risk/reward balance. The founders risked it all and laid everything on the line, but for a chance at great reward -- a new nation. This is hardly the same thing as going into a private booth and writing a name no one will ever see, and then claiming a halo for it. There is neither risk, nor reward in that. Just futility.
Completely out of context...
no, exactly correct.
To use that quote as you intended (just accept the lesser of two evils), Benny would be pleading to keep the colonies from rebelling against King George, thus avoid a revolution (long war with lots of bloodshed).
Rather, it was an admonition to GROW A PAIR and stand for FREEDOM and LIBERTY, no matter the cost...
Rmpl
This has already been answered but you greatly mistake the quote and Franklin.
Some thoughts from Chuck Baldwin, Presidential candidate for the Constitution Party, on the issue of voting for the lesser of two evils from a Christian perspective.
And Baldwin is wrong and messed up. His examples are not analogs of the situation today.
Littlelebowski
10-09-08, 12:03
This is hardly the same thing as going into a private booth and writing a name no one will ever see, and then claiming a halo for it. There is neither risk, nor reward in that. Just futility.
You summed it up neatly there. Good job.
There is a reason why Conservatives and Libertarians are not well represented in the political landscape today.
The political system as it stands today in the US exists as it is. We either learn to play by the rules that exist (and over time maybe change the rules) or we pack up and go home and let the liberals rule.
Conservatives and Libertarians have no clue on how to play politics, which is a necessary evil if you want to have influence and play in the big leagues. They stand by their principles 100% and get shut out. Instead of standing for their principles and making tactical moves that will get them part way where they want to go.
The liberals have perfected this. The Conservatives and Libertarians don't have a clue. A perfect example was the recent bailout vote. The liberals structured it so that all the Democrats facing tight reelection could vote NO with it still passing and forcing the Republicans to support it through rhetoric so they could blame the Republicans for it.
All the "principled" and "men of high integrity" here exemplify this. Absolutely NO political tactical or strategic skill.
There are times you draw a line in the sand, and there are times when you play politics and make deals and compromises. Those are the facts, whether we like it or not. Conservatives and Libertarians whine and cry and moan too much about how it should be and don't learn how it is and how to maneuver and live in that environment. The ALL MIGHTY RON PAUL seems to have learned somewhat, as he (supposedly, as outlined in an M4C thread) compromised his principles to vote FOR EARMARKS for Shrimp Farmers from his district. He probably hated doing it but realized that to stay elected, where he could have influence, he needed to.
We better learn that or the world will be increasingly liberal in the future.
Rmplstlskn
10-09-08, 12:22
Actually... some of the arguments here have somewhat swayed me, but what has really swayed me to reevaluate my position on voting for McCain is the liberals on radio and TV that say "very bad things" will happen if Obama has this election STOLEN from him...
I'd love to see liberals all over this country freak out... :p Maybe even see them get their heads bashed in by riot police... :eek: (but my Christian side of me hopes they are just full of hot air and just lead their little marches, etc... so I can laugh at them...)
So you guys with "ends justify the means" and "lesser of two evils" twisted rationality, you can now relax, as I and my wife will vote McCAIN...
But I say this, I will not be mild when I say, "Told you so..." a few years from now, maybe even less. I do believe McCain will destroy us, just as Obama will...
Rmpl
There is a reason why Conservatives and Libertarians are not well represented in the political landscape today.
The political system as it stands today in the US exists as it is. We either learn to play by the rules that exist (and over time maybe change the rules) or we pack up and go home and let the liberals rule.
Conservatives and Libertarians have no clue on how to play politics, which is a necessary evil if you want to have influence and play in the big leagues. They stand by their principles 100% and get shut out. Instead of standing for their principles and making tactical moves that will get them part way where they want to go.
The liberals have perfected this. The Conservatives and Libertarians don't have a clue. A perfect example was the recent bailout vote. The liberals structured it so that all the Democrats facing tight reelection could vote NO with it still passing and forcing the Republicans to support it through rhetoric so they could blame the Republicans for it.
All the "principled" and "men of high integrity" here exemplify this. Absolutely NO political tactical or strategic skill.
There are times you draw a line in the sand, and there are times when you play politics and make deals and compromises. Those are the facts, whether we like it or not. Conservatives and Libertarians whine and cry and moan too much about how it should be and don't learn how it is and how to maneuver and live in that environment. The ALL MIGHTY RON PAUL seems to have learned somewhat, as he (supposedly, as outlined in an M4C thread) compromised his principles to vote FOR EARMARKS for Shrimp Farmers from his district. He probably hated doing it but realized that to stay elected, where he could have influence, he needed to.
We better learn that or the world will be increasingly liberal in the future.
That is absolutely the saddest commentary, on the state of this nation, that I have read to date. When maintaining one's integrity and principle is considered an anachronism, that is pathetic.
Actually... some of the arguments here have somewhat swayed me, but what has really swayed me to reevaluate my position on voting for McCain is the liberals on radio and TV that say "very bad things" will happen if Obama has this election STOLEN from him...
Hey, maybe they'll get all violent, try to revolt, and we can crack some heads and kick off Revolution Version 2.0 and get this place back on track ;)
Or maybe they just get roughed up a little. I'm okay with that, too!
The ALL MIGHTY RON PAUL seems to have learned somewhat, as he (supposedly, as outlined in an M4C thread) compromised his principles to vote FOR EARMARKS for Shrimp Farmers from his district.
Fact checking is good. Ron Paul voted against the bailout on both occassions. And yes, he's a sucker like the rest of us who stand on principle.
That is absolutely the saddest commentary, on the state of this nation, that I have read to date.
With all due respect, sir, I feel much the same way when I read this:
...only go to solidify my belief that this nation is dead. Like I've stated before, I honestly have better ways to spend my time and resources than to attempt to resurrect a corpse.
:(
Robb Jensen
10-09-08, 12:38
you can now relax, as I and my wife will vote McCAIN...
That's good to hear Rmpl !
That is absolutely the saddest commentary, on the state of this nation, that I have read to date. When maintaining one's integrity and principle is considered an anachronism, that is pathetic.
You can maintain principles and integrity while developing enough savvy and "tactical" skill to insure the preservation and spread of your principles. One example of a failure to do so comes from the Libertarian Party. Everyone wants to be President, but no one wants to be dog catcher. So, the LPs have no base from which to cultivate candidates who will go from dog catcher to President, or who will assist others to do so, all the while converting people to your philosophy.
Fact checking is good. Ron Paul voted against the bailout on both occassions. And yes, he's a sucker like the rest of us who stand on principle.
Did I say anything about the Bailout? Ron Paul stuffs earmarks into appropriations bills for Shrimp farmers in his district. Go "fact check" it yourself. Google is your friend.
Fact checking is good. Ron Paul voted against the bailout on both occassions. And yes, he's a sucker like the rest of us who stand on principle.
Fact checking is very good. Doing so would have allowed you to note that the quote dealt with Ron Paul's abandonment of his principles in order to send "ill gotten gains" (what he considers most federal revenue to be) to his constituents who were thus likely to vote for him again. The justification was that the shrimp farmers had money "stolen" from them by the feds, and he was just "returning" it to them.
The same logic would have supported the bailout, since I can guarantee those financial firms and their employees had far more taken from them by the feds than the shrimp farmers. Then again, said firms likely weren't in Paul's district so he had nothing to gain from diverting money to them.
That is absolutely the saddest commentary, on the state of this nation, that I have read to date. When maintaining one's integrity and principle is considered an anachronism, that is pathetic.
Maintaining ones integrity and principles are not an anachronism. You are not maintaining your integrity or principles. Read previous posts.
However, it sounds like what you want is a dictatorship.
I guess asking for either one of these is like facing a pro boxer !!
and he is saying OK do you want me to punch you in the face ! (obama)
or in the stomach ! (McCain)
either one is going to hurt but I would rather take it in the gut !!!
Maintaining ones integrity and principles are not an anachronism. You are not maintaining your integrity or principles. Read previous posts.
Rationalize it all you want. Trying to cajole me into voting for McCain with insults and fearmongering ain't gonna get it.
However, it sounds like what you want is a dictatorship.
No, I want the Constitution back, but you've already informed me I can't have it back, because that's not "the reality".
CarlosDJackal
10-09-08, 15:22
...voting for the lesser of two evils, etc. only go to solidify my belief that this nation is dead. Like I've stated before, I honestly have better ways to spend my time and resources than to attempt to resurrect a corpse...
Sounds like you're already decided to jump ship even before the iceberg is in sight. How sad. :rolleyes:
Rationalize it all you want. Trying to cajole me into voting for McCain with insults and fearmongering ain't gonna get it.
Insults? I am merely laying out the truth of the matter. You'd rather live in a fantasy land.
No, I want the Constitution back, but you've already informed me I can't have it back, because that's not "the reality".
Actually you want a Dictatorship that you control so you can put your principles on top. That is the only way you are going to get what you want.
I do not agree with the "living document" argument, but reality shows that that is closer to the case of how it actually is. When you have a democratic form of government, unless you have a strong judiciary to stop mob-rule, you end up with a form of mob-rule. We have mob-rule. Crying about it won't change things.
If you wanted the Constitution back, you'd vote for McCain. Not only is he closer to the Constitution, it buys time to sway people to change so that the country as a whole moves that direction.
And then start working at your local level. If you can get your local populace to think more like you when it comes to your local politics, you will have scored a major victory because people's attitudes on local stuff will bleed over to state and national politics.
If you can convince your local town or city that raising taxes to fund little league or a community center or whatever else some do-gooder puts on the agenda, is BAD, that attitude will spill over to when people suggest that the country bail out bad mortgages.
Voting your "principles" only hastens the demise of your "principles."
And again, any "principles" that means you help a marxist take over the country are no principles I'd want anything to do with and have nothing to do with the principles that founded this country and gave us the Constitution.
Read up on how the Constitution came to be. It was FULL OF COMPROMISE.
Short synopsis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Convention
Read the part about the 3/5 compromise on slavery, for example. And the last part about the ratification and signing and the quote from Franklin.
Rmplstlskn
10-09-08, 15:55
Sounds like you're already decided to jump ship even before the iceberg is in sight. How sad. :rolleyes:
Actually, I think we saw the ICEBERG in the late 1800's and actually HIT the iceberg in the 1930's... As more and more of the ship flooded BEHIND BULKHEADS, the crew was too busy looting to attempt repairs and took most of the lifeboats for themselves... (an analogy only, not meant to imply that looting is what actually happened on the Titanic)
What we are seeing now is the SINKING and the ship is about to go vertical, so hang on tight...
But I have a life vest and a little boat, as I saw this coming years ago... I hope others do as well... It's a shame McCain may be the Captain at the helm when it goes below the surface, he doesn't deserve that role in history...
Rmpl
Actually, I think we saw the ICEBERG in the late 1800's and actually HIT the iceberg in the 1930's... As more and more of the ship flooded BEHIND BULKHEADS, the crew was too busy looting to attempt repairs and took most of the lifeboats for themselves... (an analogy only, not meant to imply that looting is what actually happened on the Titanic)
What we are seeing now is the SINKING and the ship is about to go vertical, so hang on tight...
That's a pretty decent analogy.
It's a shame McCain may be the Captain at the helm when it goes below the surface, he doesn't deserve that role in history...
I agree, he would not deserve that dubious note in history. I doubt he will have that to worry about, however, even if I were to vote for him.
Submariner
10-09-08, 18:17
. gov Power Spectrum
Total .gov Power--------------------------------------Limited Constitutional-------------No .gov
---------------------------------------------------------------Government-------------------Power
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+------------------------------+
Totalitarians----------------------------------------------US, 1789-1861------------------Anarchists
Communists, e.g. Party of Obama
National Socialists
Fascists, e.g. Gang of Plunderers
If you wanted the Constitution back, you'd vote for Juan McCain. Not only is he closer to the Constitution, it buys time to sway people to change so that the country as a whole moves that direction.
We've done a fine job of this during Jorge Boosh's regime. Real soon now the dollar, like the Constitution, will be just "a god-damned piece of paper." Crony capitalism at its best.
Of course, Jorge will retire to his estancia in Paraguay.
rightwingmaniac
10-09-08, 18:53
you know tom brokaws ass aint gonna let any 2nd ammendment questions take place. hes already in the tank for obama. mccain was my last choice for the republican nominee, but if we dont vote for him, you can kiss your carbine good bye.:mad:
The "Principled" and "High Integrity" folks are good at making analogies, fancy charts, finding tin-foil hat essays, practicing Spanish names, and all sorts of other things to prove their point.
HOWEVER, they are not very good at actually proposing solutions and getting anything done to actually promote and get their agenda implemented.
They talk a good talk but when push comes to shove they retreat back to their "principles" and abandon any hope of fixing things.
thopkins22
10-09-08, 21:58
They talk a good talk but when push comes to shove they retreat back to their "principles" and abandon any hope of fixing things.
Perhaps they believe that a principled true free market IS the solution and a bunch of feel good shit from a politician will do nothing. The whole point is that government solutions are never as fair nor as efficient as anything the market will provide.
I'll agree that they aren't good at getting mainstream support. Yet another reason I'm happy to be in Texas where I can vote how I please and not hurt the GOP.
Perhaps they believe that a principled true free market IS the solution and a bunch of feel good shit from a politician will do nothing. The whole point is that government solutions are never as fair nor as efficient as anything the market will provide.
So why don't they DO something to get us to that point. I happen to agree with the premise about the market being the best solution. But we are NOT THERE now and they are not doing anything to get us in that direction. And their tacit support for Obama will move us in the opposite direction faster than it would go under McCain (no great free market friend either). Instead of buying time and slowing the landslide to socialism down, they fall back on "principle" and accelerate it.
And give us stupid essays they find on the internet from tin-foil hat folks, they make up Spanish names for politicians, and make fancy charts about the progress of government.
Instead of living IN the system and working IN the existing system for change, they sit back on their *sses and talk about their great "principles."
I am almost 43 and was in their shoes once. I have since learned that you don't get very far wishing things were different and being smug that you are better than others due to your principles. I was 26 when Clinton got elected. Young and idealistic. Now I am a realist who wants the best possible world for my children and being a "principled" idealist sitting on my ass being smug is not going to get them it. Whether I like it or not a certain system is functioning and if you want to do something to advance your agenda then you need to function in that system. No IFs, ANDs, or BUTs. No sitting on your ass lecturing others on how principled you are either.
I'll agree that they aren't good at getting mainstream support. Yet another reason I'm happy to be in Texas where I can vote how I please and not hurt the GOP.
I live in Utah (now) and have the same freedom. I will still vote for McCain though as he needs the most public vote total that he can get for "legitimacy". This year I am not screwing around.
For those McCain haters out there who want to "keep it real" by voting your principles or a third party feel free. When you lose your 2nd Amendment rights please make sure that you post here so we can say "we told you so". As I said before I am no big McCain fan, but voting for Obama or a third party which will either rob us or them is not the answer. My wife is voting for the first time in her life because I have impressed upon her what is at stake here.
You do what you feel is right but don't cry here when someone leaves a big shitwich on your dinner table.
Submariner
10-10-08, 06:47
The United States economy is like a poker game where the chips have become concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, and where the other fellows can stay in the game only by borrowing. When their credit runs out the game will stop. Beckoning Frontiers (1951)
Marriner Stoddard Eccles (1890 – 1977) was a U.S. banker, economist and Chairman of the Federal Reserve (1934 - 1948)
Two Biblical principles, a law and a judgment, respectively, are the foundation for free market economics (1) "thou shalt not steal" (Ex 20:15), and (2) "Thy silver is become dross … I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross" (Isa 1:22a & 25a).
Both parties want to abandon mark-to-market in dealing with the derivatives crisis. Then create more money to buy them and keep the game going. Government truly is as honest as its money. When were non-specie, unconstitutional greenbacks introduced and their use enforced at the tip of a Yankee bayonet?
Examining the principles: (1) Thou shalt not steal. Applying a value to assets that is incorrect is fraud, dishonesty, theft. When it is suggested we abandon 'mark to market' we are being tempted to ignore God's law. (2) Thy silver is become dross … I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross. If we don't sort this out ourselves God will judge us and sort it out for us.
The current suggestions we are hearing to "temporarily" suspend mark to market are yet another attempt to see if two wrongs can make a right and if we can just wait and do the right thing later. We hear the same failed reasoning from recovering alcoholics and drug addicts. In order to sort out this mess we are in we need mark to market reality.
The game Mr. Eccles described is just about at an end. We will either purge the dross from our dishonest money or God will. Both parties exist to support the banker. Voting for either ratifies their continued theft. Don't vote; be patriotic instead. (http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo59.html)
Littlelebowski
10-10-08, 07:03
Don't vote, eh? What are you going to do when you can't buy ammo without being tracked? When all guns are required to microstamp ammo? When another AWB is enacted?
It sure looks like you guys have fantasies of some sort of heroic last stand against the gov't. That's really taking care of you family, good idea. Also, voting for the socialist is real smart; very good job on watching out for your children and their children.
You guys are crazier than a pet coon and I know; I have one.
Don't vote; be patriotic instead.[/URL]
What color is the sky in your world? Sounds like some of you guys are gonna go Ted Kaczynski on us. :rolleyes:
KintlaLake
10-10-08, 07:50
Sounds like some of you guys are gonna go Ted Kaczynski on us.
Nonsense...but, well, there's this little cabin up in the mountains... ;)
Just a coupla general comments. First, whatever y'all choose to do with your one vote, I'll respect it -- whether or not I agree with your decision, even if I don't share your reasoning.
And second, I don't know of anything less likely to persuade someone than calling them stupid or crazy. I'm just sayin'...
Just a coupla general comments. First, whatever y'all choose to do with your one vote, I'll respect it -- whether or not I agree with your decision, even if I don't share your reasoning.
Definitely. I'm just happy that they're not not an imaginary people registered under the names of the Cowboys offensive line!
And second, I don't know of anything less likely to persuade someone than calling them stupid or crazy. I'm just sayin'...
Good point. This has been a good debate and let's not let it degenerate to name callling or it won't sway any opinions except those of each other.
Littlelebowski
10-10-08, 08:59
Nonsense...but, well, there's this little cabin up in the mountains... ;)
Just a coupla general comments. First, whatever y'all choose to do with your one vote, I'll respect it -- whether or not I agree with your decision, even if I don't share your reasoning.
And second, I don't know of anything less likely to persuade someone than calling them stupid or crazy. I'm just sayin'...
There is at least one comment on this thread that could not be characterized as anything but crazy.
Whether I like it or not a certain system is functioning and if you want to do something to advance your agenda then you need to function in that system.
You mean like the functioning system like we had in 1775? So what the Founders did was nothing more than petty terrorism? They should have worked within the system?
When you lose your 2nd Amendment rights please make sure that you post here so we can say "we told you so".
That began back in 1934, a couple of decades before I was born. It's been a steady erosion since then and the Heller case has done little to nothing to change that fact.
Littlelebowski
10-10-08, 09:20
That began back in 1934, a couple of decades before I was born. It's been a steady erosion since then and the Heller case has done little to nothing to change that fact.
Wrong. In 1982, only 5 states allowed CCW. Now look at your rights compared to then. Look at Heller.
Don't vote, eh? What are you going to do when you can't buy ammo without being tracked? When all guns are required to microstamp ammo? When another AWB is enacted?
How about revolution? Oh, that's right, we can't do that because we'll be nothing but terrorists and get our asses handed to us by a much more powerful force.
What flippin' good is the Second Amendment if we're not even willing to consider the very action for which it was intended?! Spare me the rhetoric. Your own words nullify your position.
Littlelebowski
10-10-08, 09:25
What exactly would you revolt against our current gov't over and do you think you're capable of leading said revolution?
What exactly would you revolt against our current gov't over
Dude, you asked what would be an appropriate response to the continued erosion of our perceived rights under the Constitution. I answered. If they initiate another AWB without grandfather clause, under Obama and a Democrat controlled congress, then I sincerely believe that could be viewed as a usurpation of our Constitutional liberties by a government run amok with power. I do believe our Founders would have considered that decent justification for the taking up of arms.
and do you think you're capable of leading said revolution?
To lead implies there are followers. As you've so eloquently indicated, there will be no followers. Nobody wants to be labelled a terrorist.
Rmplstlskn
10-10-08, 09:50
It sure looks like you guys have fantasies of some sort of heroic last stand against the gov't. That's really taking care of you family, good idea.
Actually, we don't have to STAND against any gov't, as it was created, before we were born, like a house of cards, and it will IMPLODE all on its own...
Since the weak foundation was created before we were born and the PEOPLE have rejected those who HAD A CLUE and KNEW what it takes to fix it at EVERY SINGLE ELECTION, all we have to do is step back, take care of our own (being prepared to be more self-reliant), and watch the show. Then like SURVIVORS after a devastating storm, we step in and help REBUILD, but hopefully upon ROCK and GOOD FOUNDATIONS this time around...
I still recall well the COMPROMISERS and JUSTIFIERS tell us in the PRIMARY that we should REJECT PRINCIPLE and vote McCain... Now we have a candidate that has no economic clue what to do at this point in the SINKING and may have to, once again, sacrifice for his country and go down with the ship at the helm...
So in a sense, since the MAJORITY (some even on here) rejected every candidate I voted for in the PRIMARIES over the many years, the ones who HAD A CLUE, or at least a sliver of a clue, and gave us the leaders who continued adding on to the tower of cards with so-called solid structures made actually of paper mache, I can step back and watch the show WITHOUT GUILT of any sort.
Since the late 90's, and most assuredly since the early 2000's, we have been at the time where one should have been looking for the LIFE VESTS and LIFE BOATS...
Taking care of MY FAMILY is exactly what I have been doing... It won't be fun, but with YHWH's grace, we will come out of this at the other end ready and able to rebuild. And we will always have LOVE, even to the point of death, if that is where this sinking takes us to... I have PEACE in that... Do you?
Rmpl
OldNavyGuy
10-10-08, 09:55
What is one to do if he does not want to vote or Obama OR McCain?
you vote for the continued existence of The United States of America.., John McCain is the best choice, Osama Obama will give you a Muslime state and all hell will break loose !
anyone who does not vote for McCain-Palin is a Osama Obama supporter and just another America hater !!
Littlelebowski
10-10-08, 10:01
Actually, we don't have to STAND against any gov't, as it was created, before we were born, like a house of cards, and it will IMPLODE all on its own...
Since the weak foundation was created before we were born and the PEOPLE have rejected those who HAD A CLUE and KNEW what it takes to fix it at EVERY SINGLE ELECTION, all we have to do is step back, take care of our own (being prepared to be more self-reliant), and watch the show. Then like SURVIVORS after a devastating storm, we step in and help REBUILD, but hopefully upon ROCK and GOOD FOUNDATIONS this time around...
I still recall well the COMPROMISERS and JUSTIFIERS tell us in the PRIMARY that we should REJECT PRINCIPLE and vote McCain... Now we have a candidate that has no economic clue what to do at this point in the SINKING and may have to, once again, sacrifice for his country and go down with the ship at the helm...
So in a sense, since the MAJORITY (some even on here) rejected every candidate I voted for in the PRIMARIES over the many years, the ones who HAD A CLUE, or at least a sliver of a clue, and gave us the leaders who continued adding on to the tower of cards with so-called solid structures made actually of paper mache, I can step back and watch the show WITHOUT GUILT of any sort.
Since the late 90's, and most assuredly since the early 2000's, we have been at the time where one should have been looking for the LIFE VESTS and LIFE BOATS...
Taking care of MY FAMILY is exactly what I have been doing... It won't be fun, but with YHWH's grace, we will come out of this at the other end ready and able to rebuild. And we will always have LOVE, even to the point of death, if that is where this sinking takes us to... I have PEACE in that... Do you?
Rmpl
If I could remove your Shift key remotely, I would.
McCain's energy plan would go a long way towards fixing this economy. Obama's socialism is a nail in the coffin of our conservative ideals in gov't.
As far as your "PEACE and LOVE" blather about family, are you trying to imply something myself and my family?
Dude, you asked what would be an appropriate response to the continued erosion of our perceived rights under the Constitution. I answered. If they initiate another AWB without grandfather clause, under Obama and a Democrat controlled congress, then I sincerely believe that could be viewed as a usurpation of our Constitutional liberties by a government run amok with power. I do believe our Founders would have considered that decent justification for the taking up of arms.
To lead implies there are followers. As you've so eloquently indicated, there will be no followers. Nobody wants to be labelled a terrorist.
Okay we're off track here, but...
Unfortunately this is very true. Banning and rounding up guns is definitely an activity that justifies armed resistance. And unfortunately, even though many people talk this way, very few will have an inclination to do anything about it if the time comes, and the few that do will be lone actors turned into "terrorists" by media spin. I'm on the same page as rmecapn, here.
(Back to topic...)
BUT, this is precisely why doing ANYTHING that speeds this up (like helping Obama get in office) is so harmful! We must fight with from the soapbox and ballotbox so we're not breaking out the cartridge boxes. Stemming the tide of erosion of our freedom is not easy, fun, or glamorous, but we've got to do all we can. Giving up and letting "them" have it just because we're outnumbered isn't an option.
Littlelebowski
10-10-08, 10:03
Dude, you asked what would be an appropriate response to the continued erosion of our perceived rights under the Constitution. I answered. If they initiate another AWB without grandfather clause, under Obama and a Democrat controlled congress, then I sincerely believe that could be viewed as a usurpation of our Constitutional liberties by a government run amok with power. I do believe our Founders would have considered that decent justification for the taking up of arms.
To lead implies there are followers. As you've so eloquently indicated, there will be no followers. Nobody wants to be labelled a terrorist.
Just so we're all certain here, you (rmecpn) are personally voting for the next AWB. You. Do you not understand that McCain would not sign an AWB? Do you not understand the Obama would? Please respond with a simple yes or no answer.
thopkins22
10-10-08, 10:18
McCain's energy plan would go a long way towards fixing this economy. Obama's socialism is a nail in the coffin of our conservative ideals in gov't.
Energy independence is a pipe dream at this point...it's been promised by every president since Nixon. And their plans aren't dramatically different.
Do you not understand that McCain would not sign an AWB?
No, I have no assurance he would not sign. His predessor indicated he would and McCain is more liberal than his predecessor.
Do you not understand the Obama would?
Yes, I do believe he would.
KintlaLake
10-10-08, 10:44
...McCain would not sign an AWB...
With respect, Littlelebowski, I'd like to put that into a jar, seal it up, and (if McCain-Palin wins) come back to it in a coupla years.
While I think it's reasonable to say that Sen. McCain's record and public statements make him less likely to act counter to our Second Amendment rights (e.g. AWB, SCOTUS), I think rmecapn's skepticism is just as reasonable -- even justified.
Some will take that skepticism and vote for the lesser evil. Others will make different choices.
Rmplstlskn
10-10-08, 11:46
As far as your "PEACE and LOVE" blather about family, are you trying to imply something myself and my family?
No implication or accusation intended... Just a question. I ask myself all the time what I can do today to make my family more secure and peaceful in this precocious time in history... I think we all should... thus the question...
Plus, it was somewhat evangelistic, I confess, but that is who I am...
Rmpl
Dr. Quickdraw Mcgraw
10-10-08, 22:11
No, I have no assurance he would not sign. His predessor indicated he would and McCain is more liberal than his predecessor.
Spot on, I don't trust McCain as far as i can throw him.
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