View Full Version : Benchmark Times to Shoot For With Your AR15 - An M4C Collaboration Project
Eurodriver
10-05-17, 22:04
It was suggested to me by a few members of this forum to create a thread like this. I thought it could grow into something useful and helpful for AR owners in the future to know where they stand in relation to the performance of others, so I was happy to oblige. It seems to be common in the realm of pistol forums, but not so much with rifles. Let's change that.
The purpose of this thread is to discuss different drills one can do with the AR15 and post times for those drills. This gives people a general idea of how everyone else performs, and will hopefully serve to get more folks out shooting. In order to create an easily viewed database I will periodically update the OP with drills and times. If you have a drill that you would like to be listed in the OP, PM me with details
Once you have shot one or more drills listed in the OP, feel free to PM or post your time. Many applauses will be awarded to the #1 shooter for each drill, and hopefully this fosters the spirit of friendly competition.
Drill #1 Modified Navy Qual
Here is a drill we run at work. We call it the Navy SEAL drill as one of our officers who is a former SEAL introduced it to us.
Target is a silhouette with an 8 inch circle target zone. We use a TQ-19-AZ target.
Distance is 50 yards.
3 magazines with 5 rounds each.
Drill starts standing. On the buzzer fire 5 rounds. Reload. Then move to intermediate position (ie kneeling). Fire 5 rounds. Reload. Move to prone. Fire 5 rounds.
Par time is 25 seconds. Every second over is +2 seconds. Every shot out of the 8 inch circle is +5 seconds. Every shot off of silhouette is +10 seconds.
A good time is under 40 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT9W__Abmyk
- 24.42 seconds
Drill #2
From the low ready - 1 shot on a C Zone IPSC at 100y in less than one second - three times in a row. I kept saying B Zone in the videos I made, but it's really the C zone (including B and A)
(I am not a youtuber. I suck at narrating. The shooting starts at 1:30. I am only including the entire video so there are no claims of cherry picking)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCWxLIx_tpQ
- 0.99sec, 0.95sec, 0.93sec
Drill #3
Target: C-Zone IPSC
Have 5 rounds in your rifle and another magazine of 5 rounds. Standing with your back at the target, sprint 200 yards. Turn around and assume the prone position and score 3 hits. Sprint to the 100 yard line and score 3 hits from the standing. Reduce your time by 2 seconds for each round saved.
*Contains NSFW language and moaning/grunting when laying down in swamp water with MRSA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyt_SPtRLeI
- 99sec w/ 2 rounds saved = 95sec
Drill #4
NRA B8 300 Point Aggregate
Target: NRA B8
Distance: 100Y
Start standing in either low or high ready (shooter's preference). On the buzzer, drop to prone and fire 10 rounds for score in less than 10 seconds. Goal: Score greater than 90 in less than 10 seconds.
Target: NRA B8
Distance: 50Y
Start standing in either low or high ready (shooter's preference). On the buzzer, drop to a kneeling position and fire 10 rounds for score in less than 10 seconds. Goal: Score greater than a 90 in less than 10 seconds.
Target: NRA B8
Distance: 25Y
Start standing in either low or high ready (shooter's preference). On the buzzer fire 10 rounds to the B8 in less than 10 seconds. Goal: Score greater than 90 in less than 10 seconds.
You'll need to know your zero (I recommend a 100Y zero) and also where your gun hits at 25 & 50Y. If you can routinely shoot 270 combined in under a combined 30 seconds I'd say you are a solid carbine shooter. If you find the times are too generous, knock them down to 7.5s each and try again. But as a general rule I feel 10 seconds is a good challenge for most shooters.
Drill #5
Carbine "X" Drill
Requirements
One 1/3 size IPSC AR 500 steel target
Two markers at 25 yards from target, approx 25 yards apart, two markers at 50 yards from target, 25 yards apart. One marker dead center.
Carbine and one magazine loaded with 10 rds.
Spare mag somewhere on your person (rig, pouch, pocket, etc).
Shot timer.
Sights/optics of your choice.
A location or range that allows shooting on the move.
Start in the center at the low ready. Shoot either left or right handed. On the buzzer, shoot until you hit the target, then move to one of the corners. Whichever you choose. Shots from the right side markers are made right handed, shots from the left side markers are made left handed. After shooting from a side marker, return to center. Shot from center must be made opposite which ever hand was used previous. Shoot and hit from all four corner markers, and from return to center marker. Nine hits required. Shooter gets one miss before impacting time by adding a mag change. Selector to be in safe except when shooting at a marker.
Benefits:
Reacquisition of target
Shots made with elevated heart rate
Sling work
Right and left handed shooting
- Nightchief 57.63 seconds
Diamondback
10-05-17, 22:28
Interesting idea, tagged to subscribe... though my "sprint" limit was at best the first quarter of a quarter-mile track, and that's way back when I was skinny. ("Skinny" being relative, 160# at 5'6"... load me up in Full Battle Rattle tactical gear and I look like a Mall Ninja version of Newman.)
Here is a drill we run at work. We call it the Navy SEAL drill as one of our officers who is a former SEAL introduced it to us.
Target is a silhouette with an 8 inch circle target zone. We use a TQ-19-AZ target.
Distance is 50 yards.
3 magazines with 5 rounds each.
Drill starts standing. On the buzzer fire 5 rounds. Reload. Then move to intermediate position (ie kneeling). Fire 5 rounds. Reload. Move to prone. Fire 5 rounds.
Par time is 25 seconds. Every second over is +2 seconds. Every shot out of the 8 inch circle is +5 seconds. Every shot off of silhouette is +10 seconds.
A good time is under 40 seconds
Euro with the m-M4c-aga once again.
Harumph!
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Here is a drill we run at work. We call it the Navy SEAL drill as one of our officers who is a former SEAL introduced it to us.
Lots of variations of the Modified Navy Qual (MNQ). See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv5epCk5KRY
Diamondback
10-06-17, 04:50
I'm tempted to suggest the idea of an "M4C Shooting League" where members can post their scores and the top 25 or so on each go onto a regularly updated leaderboard. Nothing formal, no titles or prizes, just the goal of seeing your name on that board someday possibly giving a little extra motivation to try to wring out just one more ten-ring or one second faster... maybe a permanent list of "Possibles" at the top for those who've made perfect scores to give something more to shoot for too.
If I can find suitable range facilities and it's not ITAR/EAR-restricted like the 23&P manual, I've been thinking it might be fun to shoot the Marine ART qualifier with the GF just to see if a crusty middle-aged cougar and a lardbody desk-jockey can pull it off...
Fordtough25
10-06-17, 08:04
Lots of variations of the Modified Navy Qual (MNQ). See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv5epCk5KRY
Thanks for the reminder, I saw Jeff post on his FB yesterday him running that exact qual. Even he can get rusty with time, but he did better than I could in a million years! I'm going to try it this weekend myself to see where I stand.
MSparks909
10-06-17, 15:19
NRA B8 300 Point Aggregate
Target: NRA B8
Distance: 100Y
Start standing in either low or high ready (shooter's preference). On the buzzer, drop to prone and fire 10 rounds for score in less than 10 seconds. Goal: Score greater than 90 in less than 10 seconds.
Target: NRA B8
Distance: 50Y
Start standing in either low or high ready (shooter's preference). On the buzzer, drop to a kneeling position and fire 10 rounds for score in less than 10 seconds. Goal: Score greater than a 90 in less than 10 seconds.
Target: NRA B8
Distance: 25Y
Start standing in either low or high ready (shooter's preference). On the buzzer fire 10 rounds to the B8 in less than 10 seconds. Goal: Score greater than 90 in less than 10 seconds.
You'll need to know your zero (I recommend a 100Y zero) and also where your gun hits at 25 & 50Y. If you can routinely shoot 270 combined in under a combined 30 seconds I'd say you are a solid carbine shooter. If you find the times are too generous, knock them down to 7.5s each and try again. But as a general rule I feel 10 seconds is a good challenge for most shooters.
Here is a drill we run at work. We call it the Navy SEAL drill as one of our officers who is a former SEAL introduced it to us.
Target is a silhouette with an 8 inch circle target zone. We use a TQ-19-AZ target.
Distance is 50 yards.
3 magazines with 5 rounds each.
Drill starts standing. On the buzzer fire 5 rounds. Reload. Then move to intermediate position (ie kneeling). Fire 5 rounds. Reload. Move to prone. Fire 5 rounds.
Par time is 25 seconds. Every second over is +2 seconds. Every shot out of the 8 inch circle is +5 seconds. Every shot off of silhouette is +10 seconds.
A good time is under 40 seconds
My favorite drill for an M-4 type rifle.....I've had 3 different variations at different classes. Trident Concepts was the toughest as I remember it. When I was the team leader I used this a few times a year for training days. Good shooters could get around 25, average was more like 30-40. I've seen guys shoot clean in 17 seconds but they were not average or good shooters.
Eurodriver
10-06-17, 22:42
Here is a drill we run at work. We call it the Navy SEAL drill as one of our officers who is a former SEAL introduced it to us.
Target is a silhouette with an 8 inch circle target zone. We use a TQ-19-AZ target.
Distance is 50 yards.
3 magazines with 5 rounds each.
Drill starts standing. On the buzzer fire 5 rounds. Reload. Then move to intermediate position (ie kneeling). Fire 5 rounds. Reload. Move to prone. Fire 5 rounds.
Par time is 25 seconds. Every second over is +2 seconds. Every shot out of the 8 inch circle is +5 seconds. Every shot off of silhouette is +10 seconds.
A good time is under 40 seconds
This looks cool and way less running so it should get more people attempting it. I’m going to do it tomorrow.
What’s your time?
SeriousStudent
10-06-17, 23:01
Here is a drill we run at work. We call it the Navy SEAL drill as one of our officers who is a former SEAL introduced it to us.
Target is a silhouette with an 8 inch circle target zone. We use a TQ-19-AZ target.
Distance is 50 yards.
3 magazines with 5 rounds each.
Drill starts standing. On the buzzer fire 5 rounds. Reload. Then move to intermediate position (ie kneeling). Fire 5 rounds. Reload. Move to prone. Fire 5 rounds.
Par time is 25 seconds. Every second over is +2 seconds. Every shot out of the 8 inch circle is +5 seconds. Every shot off of silhouette is +10 seconds.
A good time is under 40 seconds
And also quite useful if you are at a shorter distance range that would not allow a lot of moving between lines. That describes a lot of indoor or more urban settings.
Eurodriver
10-07-17, 15:31
Here is a drill we run at work. We call it the Navy SEAL drill as one of our officers who is a former SEAL introduced it to us.
Target is a silhouette with an 8 inch circle target zone. We use a TQ-19-AZ target.
Distance is 50 yards.
3 magazines with 5 rounds each.
Drill starts standing. On the buzzer fire 5 rounds. Reload. Then move to intermediate position (ie kneeling). Fire 5 rounds. Reload. Move to prone. Fire 5 rounds.
Par time is 25 seconds. Every second over is +2 seconds. Every shot out of the 8 inch circle is +5 seconds. Every shot off of silhouette is +10 seconds.
A good time is under 40 seconds
I just ran this twice.
My best time was ~28.35 (I don’t remember exact but it’s on video) with one miss. By my
Math that’s 39.35?
My second was ~31.5 sec with no misses. Which I guess is 43.5?
I’m out here at the Range I’m gonna try one more time cuz I know I can get 25 with no misses.
ETA ran it a third time. 24.42 with no misses. Got it all on a GoPro and 2 witnesses.
Eurodriver
10-07-17, 18:56
video now in OP
Diamondback
10-07-17, 20:10
Eurodriver, can't say when it'll be, but because I *know* I'm gonna suck I'm gonna offer my own scores for posting as a benchmark about "you REALLY suck if you can't beat Tactical Newman." lol
nightchief
10-07-17, 21:26
Cool! Good marksmanship drill. Did you try it support sided too by chance? In my case, I see better when I shoot left, but I run the gun better on my right, I suppose partly because of the controls on the rifle. I'm cross eyed dominant which is a PIA sometimes.
Diamondback
10-07-17, 21:36
Cool! Good marksmanship drill. Did you try it support sided too by chance? In my case, I see better when I shoot left, but I run the gun better on my right, I suppose partly because of the controls on the rifle. I'm cross eyed dominant which is a PIA sometimes.
That begets two suggestions. First, Chief, maybe see about some kind of offset cantilever rig to bring the sights over so you can "shoot right but look left" like cross-dominant Marine and Gold Medalist Bill McMillan used to do by tilting his 1911s about 45 degrees in Olympic competition? (I usually use this myself when firing support hand.) Maybe 45-degree offset irons might help you too.
Second, re the course of fire, maybe add a second run off-side at like half- or 3/4-weight? (Say, if "Par" is 25 seconds strong-side maybe 33-50 off-side.)
nightchief
10-07-17, 21:46
That begets two suggestions. First, Chief, maybe see about some kind of offset cantilever rig to bring the sights over so you can "shoot right but look left" like cross-dominant Marine and Gold Medalist Bill McMillan used to do by tilting his 1911s about 45 degrees in Olympic competition? (I usually use this myself when firing support hand.) Maybe 45-degree offset irons might help you too.
Second, re the course of fire, maybe add a second run off-side at like half- or 3/4-weight? (Say, if "Par" is 25 seconds strong-side maybe 33-50 off-side.)
I've resisted setting up my rifle with a unique sighting set up or lots of ambi controls for this reason: If I have to use a different rifle than my own, its likely not to have all the extras. I feel I need to be sufficient with a rifle that only has standard controls. The only thing I have added to mine is a ambi selector and a 12 o'clock mounted light switch. I shoot ok right eyed, just better left eyed. It's more of an issue when shooting a handgun actually.
Diamondback
10-07-17, 22:10
I've resisted setting up my rifle with a unique sighting set up or lots of ambi controls for this reason: If I have to use a different rifle than my own, its likely not to have all the extras. I feel I need to be sufficient with a rifle that only has standard controls. The only thing I have added to mine is a ambi selector and a 12 o'clock mounted light switch. I shoot ok right eyed, just better left eyed. It's more of an issue when shooting a handgun actually.
Gotcha. Would maybe a left-side tilt, "fixing" with meatware rather than hardware like the McMillan Tilt with pistols, be a viable possibility? (As a lefty, I don't use BAD Levers since I can smack the bolt catch with support hand once I've stuffed the mag in--and I like ambi mag catches on my pistols but not rifles; if I'm shooting with a rifle I have a little response time but my pistols are built for CQB where every millisecond counts.)
I like that running drill Euro, especially as I don't need to worry about getting wet here :P I'm curious to see how I do at that and the Navy Qual.
All I know is Euro is shooting his guns, as usual, and walking the walk
Eurodriver
10-08-17, 04:48
I like that running drill Euro, especially as I don't need to worry about getting wet here :P I'm curious to see how I do at that and the Navy Qual.
I like the navy qual drill. It is easy to setup and run. Maybe that could be setup as our M4C baseline metric.
And yes. The water sucked. If your username speaks to your location I’d trade the sand for the mud anytime :)
Gotcha. Would maybe a left-side tilt, "fixing" with meatware rather than hardware like the McMillan Tilt with pistols, be a viable possibility? (As a lefty, I don't use BAD Levers since I can smack the bolt catch with support hand once I've stuffed the mag in--and I like ambi mag catches on my pistols but not rifles; if I'm shooting with a rifle I have a little response time but my pistols are built for CQB where every millisecond counts.)
I get tickled when people have convos about shooting instead of kit :)
nightchief
10-08-17, 05:42
Gotcha. Would maybe a left-side tilt, "fixing" with meatware rather than hardware like the McMillan Tilt with pistols, be a viable possibility? (As a lefty, I don't use BAD Levers since I can smack the bolt catch with support hand once I've stuffed the mag in--and I like ambi mag catches on my pistols but not rifles; if I'm shooting with a rifle I have a little response time but my pistols are built for CQB where every millisecond counts.)
For me, I think most of my issues with marksmanship are more, correct practice. Some solid instruction too. I'm mostly self taught, so I undoubtedly have some poor habits. Correct practice (for me) means paying attention to the fundamentals during drills, and going slower to ensure proper stance, trigger pull, etc. I'm of the opinion that, for me, repetition of the correct skills will help overcome cross eye dominate issues. I notice it more when I'm fatigued, or require more focus. Shooting with irons requires more focus that using an RDS.
I was out last week and had a terrible day shooting. I was preoccupied with some personal issues and it affected my accuracy big time. It was a good lesson in dealing with what was bothering me between the ears and fighting thru it. If my fundamentals were better, it would be easier to work through the distractions. So I've been working on a lot of fundamentals lately, such as left hand shooting to improve my sight picture and manipulation.
Will be back out Tuesday to try out the OP's drills and see if I cam hit anything! Gonna try the drills both right and left handed just to see how "bad" I can time!
OP,
What is the target for Drill #3?
Great thread idea!
Thanks!
Eurodriver
10-08-17, 11:26
OP,
What is the target for Drill #3?
Great thread idea!
Thanks!
Whoops. C-Zone IPSC. Just updated the OP. Thanks for catching that.
Diamondback
10-08-17, 15:20
I get tickled when people have convos about shooting instead of kit :)
You know what they say, "Mindset - Skillset - Toolset, in that order." :)
Drill #3
Target: C-Zone IPSC
Have 5 rounds in your rifle and another magazine of 5 rounds. Standing with your back at the target, sprint 200 yards. Turn around and assume the prone position and score 3 hits. Sprint to the 100 yard line and score 3 hits from the standing. Reduce your time by 2 seconds for each round saved.
*Contains NSFW language and moaning/grunting when laying down in swamp water with MRSA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyt_SPtRLeI
- Eurodriver 99sec w/ 2 rounds saved = 95sec
Euro, this drill sounds really good. Do you have, or is there, a version of this that is cut in half? A lot of us only have access to 100 yard ranges so maybe a sprint to 100y, then back to 50y line drill?
Eurodriver
10-10-17, 08:05
Euro, this drill sounds really good. Do you have, or is there, a version of this that is cut in half? A lot of us only have access to 100 yard ranges so maybe a sprint to 100y, then back to 50y line drill?
I was told about this drill from GTF425. There isn’t necessarily a standard for it that I’m aware of like there is for the MNQ, for example.
The only change I would make is instead of prone at 100 I would kneel. Prone at 100 is too easy :) and maybe also reduce the target to a 1/3 IPSC.
Also, the benefit to shooting these things isn’t competing with anyone. I’m sure many people can run the MNQ here faster than 24.42, but I reduced my time by several seconds just with a days worth of practice.
As long as you are incorporating movement, reloads, and trigger pulling you are already 99% ahead of what typical AR owners are at. Run the drill in whichever manner you wish and do it the same way again and try to beat your own time.
ExplorinInTheWoods
10-10-17, 08:52
There are some 3gun classifiers one is called times 223, 6 targets total 3 on your left at 30ft 40 ft and 56 ft it's mirrored. You engage the first 3 from box a mag change on the run and engage the last 3 box b. Then you have triple play 9 targets in 3 arrays. First 3 are standing at 40 ft mag change to seconds spot kneeling 3 more at 80ft then move again last 3 at 150 ft prone.
ExplorinInTheWoods
10-10-17, 09:03
If you have the ability to do so modifying the EIC combat rifle match 321 would be good too since it focuses on marksmanship not just speed although you are under time constraints. We did it all the all army small arms match. It was 400yds prone 300 prone 200 kneeling 100 standing 75 standing 25 standing if I remember correctly 10rd mags each one. And they score your hits based on where you hit. There is some movement so you're usually 25 yds behind then you run to the firing line rack a round in and get after it. We did it with iron sights. If you modified it I think it could be a good benchmark. The eic pistol match 221 combat pistol is also in my opinion the best pistol benchmark.
noonesshowmonkey
10-11-17, 05:31
I am just glad that this thread is getting almost as many posts as the ridiculous flaming shit pile that is the--and I wish I were joking--Best BackUp Bolt Cam Pin to Keep as Backup thread. Don't worry, though, that thread has more views. Obviously that is more important & interesting to most folks than actually shooting their rifles.
I'll be heading to the range in the next couple of days, work depending, and will see what I can manage for times on a few of these.
I don't know the name, we did it on the 500 yard range. Start at 500 yards, run to 50, 5 shots to CM, run back to 500 then run to 100, same thing, run to 500 then run to 150, same...and so on. It takes a while and its crazy to see how many people start sucking pretty quickly. It was done with a standard target, one each, I don't know the name. You can use any target. We did this for pre-deployment train-ups.
I just ran this twice.
My best time was ~28.35 (I don’t remember exact but it’s on video) with one miss. By my
Math that’s 39.35?
My second was ~31.5 sec with no misses. Which I guess is 43.5?
I’m out here at the Range I’m gonna try one more time cuz I know I can get 25 with no misses.
ETA ran it a third time. 24.42 with no misses. Got it all on a GoPro and 2 witnesses.
Damn good shooting man. Ive done under 25 seconds once. On a good day I usually score around 30 and on off days Im around 40.
Eurodriver
10-11-17, 18:31
I am just glad that this thread is getting almost as many posts as the ridiculous flaming shit pile that is the--and I wish I were joking--Best BackUp Bolt Cam Pin to Keep as Backup thread. Don't worry, though, that thread has more views Obviously that is more important & interesting to most folks than actually shooting their rifles.
I will never understand the internet’s total and complete fascination with things they don’t even use.
The abundance of discussions like the one you mentioned are the very reason I made this thread. I am out shooting twice a week running drills for time and accuracy. I’m throwing out SBR shots at IPSC targets from 600 yards away with a red dot. It isn’t until I get on the internet that I find out that’s impossible and the 5.56 SBR is a 100 yard gun.
Yeah, tell my target that. If you don’t have access to a 600y Range, or worse, you do but don’t bother to try, how would you ever know that? You couldn’t ask on the internet because a guy who shot to 300 once and sucked is going to tell you that 600 is a pipedream.
There’s gotta be guys in the shadows who don’t post and just want to learn. They don’t need to read a thread about a backup bolt cam pin to a backup bolt. They don’t need to know the latest attachment method, or why Daniel Defense laid off 100 people. They don’t need a new rifle and they aren’t trying to discuss gas port sizes. (Because they have Colts ;))
They just want to hit targets faster and more accurately and I hope they respond to this thread and get a good thing going. I want to know where I stand with drills like the MNQ.
It took me a while to figure out my gear set up, what worked and didn't for me. My AR's went through iteration after iteration. I got there in the end and I'm now completely comfortable with what I have and tend to spend 95% of my web time reading about shooting techniques and reloading better ammo.
I guess what I'm saying is it takes some longer to get there and for others the constant churn of buying and selling, rebuilding guns, upgrading is their fun. To your point, none of that will help their shooting skill.
I'm glad I didn't listen to the internet or I would have never gone 3 in a row at 870 with 12.5" gun the other week (admittedly it took me 8-10 rounds to get on target and it was a large target but I'll take that).
nightchief
10-11-17, 18:57
The abundance of discussions like the one you mentioned are the very reason I made this thread. I am out shooting twice a week running drills for time and accuracy. I’m throwing out SBR shots at IPSC targets from 600 yards away with a red dot. It isn’t until I get on the internet that I find out that’s impossible and the 5.56 SBR is a 100 yard gun.
I'm glad I didn't listen to the internet or I would have never gone 3 in a row at 870 with 12.5" gun the other week (admittedly it took me 8-10 rounds to get on target and it was a large target but I'll take that).
You guys...I can't fricking see the damn target at 600 yards! Young eyes!
I've been able to hit a 1/3 IPSC steel target at 300 with some regularity with a red dot, but man is it a struggle to see the target!
Did I miss out the part where I was using a 1-6x? Oops.
nightchief
10-11-17, 19:26
Did I miss out the part where I was using a 1-6x? Oops.
Well, that does make it a little easier. :rolleyes: I had a 5x on a rifle I was regularly shooting at 500 yards and that was a bit of struggle for me. Euro says he hitting from 600 with a RDS though, and it just floors me that he can frickin' see the target!
Eurodriver
10-11-17, 19:43
Well, that does make it a little easier. :rolleyes: I had a 5x on a rifle I was regularly shooting at 500 yards and that was a bit of struggle for me. Euro says he hitting from 600 with a RDS though, and it just floors me that he can frickin' see the target!
I have to ask - have you ever set a target out at 600 and seen for yourself if you can see it?
I have threads on here of results I have gotten shooting iron sights at 400 yards. I do feel fortunate to have young eyes, but I don't think they are really that hard to see. A 1/2 IPSC at 600 spray painted white against a green/brown berm is pretty easy to see. I find iron sights easier than red dots for that kind of shooting because you can adjust them. A dot you have to know your hold for elevation and wind - without tickmarks its not easy.
With iron sights you just dial appropriately, and focus on the front sight while the target is blurry. All you really need is enough vision to see a crisp front sight that's ~18" from your face. I have videos somewhere of me shooting long range with a RDS, but I feel like I remembered I had a Gopro and have been spamming the forum with videos so I'll refrain.
nightchief
10-11-17, 19:50
I have to ask - have you ever set a target out at 600 and seen for yourself if you can see it?
I have threads on here of results I have gotten shooting iron sights at 400 yards. I do feel fortunate to have young eyes, but I don't think they are really that hard to see. A 1/2 IPSC at 600 spray painted white against a green/brown berm is pretty easy to see. I find iron sights easier than red dots for that kind of shooting because you can adjust them. A dot you have to know your hold for elevation and wind - without tickmarks its not easy.
With iron sights you just dial appropriately, and focus on the front sight while the target is blurry. All you really need is enough vision to see a crisp front sight that's ~18" from your face. I have videos somewhere of me shooting long range with a RDS, but I feel like I remembered I had a Gopro and have been spamming the forum with videos so I'll refrain.
Not 600, but yes at 500 yards. 1/3 IPSC I can barely see without a scope. Now the 30" X 30' steel the range has set up on their long range I can see ok. I can hit that at 300 yards all day and 500 yards with some regularity out of an 11.5" with RDS. I remember your vid of you shooting the SBR with RDS at 600 yards. That's when I started shooting mine beyond 200 to see if I could hit anything.
Eurodriver
10-12-17, 04:08
Not 600, but yes at 500 yards. 1/3 IPSC I can barely see without a scope. Now the 30" X 30' steel the range has set up on their long range I can see ok. I can hit that at 300 yards all day and 500 yards with some regularity out of an 11.5" with RDS. I remember your vid of you shooting the SBR with RDS at 600 yards. That's when I started shooting mine beyond 200 to see if I could hit anything.
!!! a 1/3 IPSC is tiny. No wonder you can't see it. If someone could hit that with anything less than a 10x optic, match ammo, and a stainless barrel at that range I would tip my hat. We are talking something that's 1 MOA wide and 1.8 MOA tall.
Even a 1/2 IPSC is significantly larger, but that is a stretch. A full size C Zone painted white with a dark background at 500/600 should be relatively easy to see, and not be an unrealistic goal to hit it.
nightchief
10-12-17, 04:27
!!! a 1/3 IPSC is tiny. No wonder you can't see it. If someone could hit that with anything less than a 10x optic, match ammo, and a stainless barrel at that range I would tip my hat. We are talking something that's 1 MOA wide and 1.8 MOA tall.
Even a 1/2 IPSC is significantly larger, but that is a stretch. A full size C Zone painted white with a dark background at 500/600 should be relatively easy to see, and not be an unrealistic goal to hit it.
What size are the targets you are shooting at from 600 with your SBR? I can certainly see a person 600 yards away from me...they're a little fuzzy.
I have a 2/3 sized IPSC steel target. At 500 yards it starts getting difficult to see out in the desert without magnification. Unless I find a good open clear spot to put it.
I love hearing people tell me that a SBR 5.56 cant shoot range or a 5.56 in general is only good to 300 yards. I have a friends with kills at over 400 yards with a Mk18. I shot my DMR out to around 1000 before and out to 800 on several occasions at the range.
One of the things I like to do with new AR shooters is have them shoot longish ranges early on. It shows them what a rifle is capable of and boosts their confidence. Recently took a friend of mine shooting who had never fired a rifle before. After 2 hours I had him hitting a rock on the side of a hill 275 yards away regularly. Took another buddy from LA out shooting. He had a couple ARs but had only ever shot them at 25 yards at an indoor range. He had serious doubts about hitting anything at range. After I got him a decent zero we set my 2/3 IPSC out at 230 yards (longest available at that location) and he hit it on his first shot, standing.
CrowCommand
10-13-17, 06:06
Great thread. I'm always looking for different drills to run. I have been running the 2-2-2 Drill. 25 yards, 3 IPSC silhouettes. 2 shots to center mass on each. Flexible enough to work on transition to pistol, or center mass to head shots. Par times variable as to what is involved.
Thanks for posting.
One of the things I like to do with new AR shooters is have them shoot longish ranges early on. It shows them what a rifle is capable of and boosts their confidence.
Without a doubt. I will have new guys shoot at 50 yards to teach them the principles and basics, then we go straight to 500 yards, then walk backwards with everything in between. To see their eyes and smiles when they move from 50 yards to 500, it's a lot of fun.
QuickStrike
10-13-17, 12:59
Sounds like something fun to do with my go-pro session.
nightchief
10-18-17, 19:25
Ok, got to run the C-Grunt "SEAL" drill today. If I have the scoring proper, 15 shots in 34 secs; add 18 secs since I was 9 over the par time and another 15 secs for three shots outside the 8 ring, for 67 secs. Boy do I have some work to do! :)
I was running the drill with an 11.5" with T1 RDS, G S3G trigger and IMI M193 ammo. First run may have been the best as all my shots were in the 8 ring but the time was indeterminate account I was running suppressed no the timer didn't pick up the shots.
Under 25 secs is a great goal. First I have to get under 40 secs though. Great drill. I ran it about 5 times and all were close to the same. Course of fire finished in about 35 secs with 3 outside the ring almost every time.
NC
I really like Kyle Defoor's tests. I've only had the opportunity to do 1 and 2 as our range only goes to 150 or so.
https://defoor-proformance-shooting.myshopify.com/pages/carbine-shooting-tests
Eurodriver
10-20-17, 10:53
Ok, got to run the C-Grunt "SEAL" drill today. If I have the scoring proper, 15 shots in 34 secs; add 18 secs since I was 9 over the par time and another 15 secs for three shots outside the 8 ring, for 67 secs. Boy do I have some work to do! :)
I was running the drill with an 11.5" with T1 RDS, G S3G trigger and IMI M193 ammo. First run may have been the best as all my shots were in the 8 ring but the time was indeterminate account I was running suppressed no the timer didn't pick up the shots.
Under 25 secs is a great goal. First I have to get under 40 secs though. Great drill. I ran it about 5 times and all were close to the same. Course of fire finished in about 35 secs with 3 outside the ring almost every time.
NC
Nice! I’m thankful C Grunt posted that. There’s a lot of things people can do to push the performance envelope but unfortunately they can be difficult to standardize due to range conditions and availability of space. The MNQ however can be done on just about any Range as long as they allow different positions.
Where do you think you can improve? I have always spent a ton of time practicing reloads and transitions to different positions because that’s free time. The faster I reload or drop to a knee the more time I have to focus on getting rounds on target. You were also shooting suppressed which in my experience actually slows you down. I’m not sure by how much but it was about 10% at least (on a different drill though)
Misses penalize you more than time, so try to focus on shooting clean and then get faster from there.
I’m looking forward to trying the Cgrunt over the next couple of weeks. I know reloads will kill me as I have never worked on carbine reloads... still very cool!
Can we use something like a B-27 with an 8" Shoot n c? I don't think any of LGS's around here have the TQ-19-AZ.
Eurodriver
10-20-17, 15:51
Can we use something like a B-27 with an 8" Shoot n c? I don't think any of LGS's around here have the TQ-19-AZ.
If you look at my video I’m just using a 8” shoot n see on a white background. I don’t think this is that formal as long as we are all using the same size target. The object is just to get people out shooting anyway.
If you look at my video I’m just using a 8” shoot n see on a white background. I don’t think this is that formal as long as we are all using the same size target. The object is just to get people out shooting anyway.
Cool, I got to try this....see what my 64 yr old eyes and bod got left.
Eurodriver
10-20-17, 15:57
Cool, I got to try this....see what my 64 yr old eyes and bod got left.
Love this. You’re out getting some while healthy 22 year olds fiddle around with their buffer weights and spring colors. Be sure to let us know how you did!
Love this. You’re out getting some while healthy 22 year olds fiddle around with their buffer weights and spring colors. Be sure to let us know how you did!
Will do. I do shoot 3gun every month, many times twice in the month. Would it be OK to use a little magnification? In the game we shoot 8-10" steel at 50-60 yds many times offhand. In those times I dial in 2-2.5X, helps me alot. But if this isn't cool I try it at 1X.
Eurodriver
10-20-17, 16:14
Will do. I do shoot 3gun every month, many times twice in the month. Would it be OK to use a little magnification? In the game we shoot 8-10" steel at 50-60 yds many times offhand. In those times I dial in 2-2.5X, helps me alot. But if this isn't cool I try it at 1X.
There’s no rules when it comes to that. Use whatever gun, with whatever optic, firing whatever ammunition you wish.
Drill #2 and drill #3 video links not working for me. What is the distance for drill #2?
...Dig this thread a ton, btw. Thanks, Euro.
nightchief
10-21-17, 00:58
Eurodriver wrote: Where do you think you can improve?
The range I'm shooting at has lots of rocks and little sticker burs. Next time I do the drill, I'll be wearing knee pads and gloves so I'm not concerned about either. I won't be as "careful" when dropping to my knee or dropping to prone.
The shot timer adds more stress than I would have expected. My mindset became "beat the clock", instead of making sure to breathe properly, and focus on the target. I actually tried to pull the trigger once without letting it reset. The reset on the G S3G trigger is very short, so this takes effort, and not in a good way!
My mag changes are pretty fast, though undoubtedly could be faster, or more correctly, be more efficient. Who engages the safety when making a mag change? I can see reasons to both engage and not engage.
I noticed when working against the timer, I felt like my changes weren't fast enough, so by trying to go faster, I fumbled thru them a little bit more.
I've only had a timer for about a month, and it's certainly changing the way I train. It creates stress that didn't exist before. This is a good thing IMO.
I have always spent a ton of time practicing reloads and transitions to different positions because that’s free time.
Me too. I short load most of my mags to incorporate more changes. Left handed is interesting.
The faster I reload or drop to a knee the more time I have to focus on getting rounds on target.
I agree...knee pads and gloves!
You were also shooting suppressed which in my experience actually slows you down.
I think the follow up shots were better as the can increased the weight and reduced the muzzle movement, but may not be faster without better recoil control. A friend was watching me shoot unsuppressed and said it looked like gun never moved, but the red dot was all over the place in my sight line. I need to work on stabilizing and managing the recoil better. I actually spent my range time today working on this along with reaction time.
Misses penalize you more than time, so try to focus on shooting clean and then get faster from there.
100% agree! Better to be accurate than fast. Will work on making the shots by breathing better, managing the recoil. I may try incorporating some sort of rhythm too. Not entirely sure.
Will try again next week. This is a great drill and a good challenge...at least for me.
Eurodriver
10-21-17, 15:14
Drill #2 and drill #3 video links not working for me. What is the distance for drill #2?
...Dig this thread a ton, btw. Thanks, Euro.
Thanks Novak. Vids should be working again. Distance is 100 yards.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-21-17, 18:38
Pistol drills use a timer or moving target.
Use no larger than 18" silhouettes
7 yards
Put 4 rounds in your mag, chamber one round with 3 rounds in mag. Holster pistol.
Load your spare mag with 4 rounds.
Draw pistol, 4 rounds Center mass.
Side step during reload then 4 rounds Center mass.
5 seconds total is acceptable, all rounds have to be COM.
Remember to check surroundings after.
Next drill
10 yards
Put 2 rounds in mag, chamber one round with one round in mag.
Load spare mag with 3 rounds.
Low ready to 2 rounds COM
Side step reload
2 rounds COM 1 round in head
4 seconds is acceptable.
Remember to check surroundings after
Might seem unattainable at first, but give it a few tries and you'll get it. Practice proper draw strokes at home, draw stroke is very important, practice it right or don't practice it at all. Your draw strokes should be around 1 second or under, but nobody is perfect, I suggest being safe and don't go faster than is safe for you.
After a few hundred proper draw strokes you will probably be at the 1 second mark.
Also, side step different ways, don't side step right every time.
Pistol drills use a timer or moving target.
Use no larger than 18" silhouettes.........
Nice practical pistol drills
.........Practice proper draw strokes at home, draw stroke is very important, practice it right or don't practice it at all. Your draw strokes should be around 1 second or under, but nobody is perfect, I suggest being safe and don't go faster than is safe for you.
After a few hundred proper draw strokes you will probably be at the 1 second mark.
Also, side step different ways, don't side step right every time.
Don't want to hi-jack, but instilling movement is kind of a passion of mine. I think the gift of instinctive movement off the threat axis is one of the greatest survival tools an instructor can pass on.
The drills you outlined involved lateral movement - side to side. Consider several axis of movement: (this snippet is from a pistol instructor handout that I wrote)
Our scenario is that we are drawing in response to a weapon being presented at close range. At first glance it would seem that there are several options available to an officer in this situation:
1) Draw in response to the threat. This is likely to be the response that most static range training evokes. The problem is that we have done nothing to seize the advantage and make the subject react to our action – the subject merely continues their already ongoing plan of action. Common sense also tells us that we aren’t going to outdraw someone who is already in the process of drawing or presenting their weapon.
2) Move back while drawing in response to the threat. This is one of the most commonly taught responses to a close range assault. The problem is that the subject who is armed with a firearm is not forced to do change their plan/do anything different to hit the target, US!! – they merely continue the actions they have already begun. Additionally, there is the potential for the officer to stumble as they back away. This technique does initially gain advantage if the assailant is armed with a cutting or striking instrument - it does create more reactionary gap. Another consideration for close range assaults is that the subject can move more quickly forward than the officer can backward.
3) Move into the threat while drawing and/or blocking. This tactic has the advantage of being counter-intuitive; it is not the expected response in this situation. This tactic has the potential to cause a substantial shifting of gears in the suspect’s planning process. Officers would primarily benefit from this tactic in an extremely close range assault.
4) Move laterally to the left or right while drawing in response to the threat. This option does require the subject to alter their plan in order to engage the target. This tactic also gains advantage if the assailant is moving at us with a cutting or striking instrument - it moves the officer off the straight-line axis of movement by the subject.
5) Move diagonally forward to the left or right while drawing in response to the threat. This tactic is likely to create even more lag time in the subject. As mentioned earlier, moving into the threat is counter intuitive and may, in and of itself, create additional lag time in the subject. Movement into the threat coupled with diagonal movement requires the subject to move more in order to track the moving target. It requires more movement, and is, therefore, probably more difficult for the assailant to track and engage a target moving diagonally into them than a target moving laterally with no movement forward or back.
6) Moving diagonally to the rear while drawing in response to the threat. As mentioned above, movement into the threat coupled with diagonal movement requires the subject to move more in order to track the moving target. Movement to the rear while moving laterally requires less movement for the subject to engage at moderate ranges, at closer ranges this tactics serves to create distance and if the assailant is moving at the officer with a cutting or striking instrument - it moves the officer off the straight-line axis of movement by the subject.
48141
Considering the pros and cons of the six listed tactics, it appears to me that moving diagonally forward while drawing in response to the threat is the best overall response. If I had to choose one tactic to teach, this would be it. But, you should drill your officers on each one - train them, don't just stand there, MOVE!
Of course if you are going to practice this you need to start dry drilling it and go from there. When you go to the range you need to make sure that the drill falls within the range rules, and that the range's berm will contain all the rounds fired.
Sorry for the short hi-jack, but, as I said, this was kind of a mission for me while I was working. ;)
I wanted to follow-up on a great drill C-Grunt posted:
Quote Originally Posted by C-grunt View Post
Here is a drill we run at work. We call it the Navy SEAL drill as one of our officers who is a former SEAL introduced it to us.
Target is a silhouette with an 8 inch circle target zone. We use a TQ-19-AZ target.
Distance is 50 yards.
3 magazines with 5 rounds each.
Drill starts standing. On the buzzer fire 5 rounds. Reload. Then move to intermediate position (ie kneeling). Fire 5 rounds. Reload. Move to prone. Fire 5 rounds.
Par time is 25 seconds. Every second over is +2 seconds. Every shot out of the 8 inch circle is +5 seconds. Every shot off of silhouette is +10 seconds.
A good time is under 40 seconds
I was introduced to the drill in a different manner. I found out it was Jeff Gonzalez at Trident-Concepts. He scores it like golf and classifies students as UNQ, MM, SS, EX based on scores.
Target with 8 inch scoring ring.
Par time is 25 seconds - which equals 0 points.
Add or subtract points (or strokes if you think golf) for the following:
OVER Par Time (25 seconds) = add 2 points for each second. Lets say you shot it perfect, but in 27 seconds. That would be 0+(2x2) = 4 points
UNDER Part Time (25 seconds) = subtract 1 point for each second under par. Let's say you shot it perfect in 23 seconds. That would be 0-(2x1) = -2 points (You Arnold Palmer, you)
MISSES (outside 8 in ring) - add 5 points for each miss. Lets say you shot it in 27 seconds and had 2 misses. That would be 0 + 4 (time penalty) + 10 (miss penalty) = 14 points
Here is how the points stack up:
25 to 40 = MM
10 to 24 = SS
under 10 = EX
To me, scoring it this way adds another dimension of fun and competitiveness if you are shooting with buddies.
Currently, I'm barely rolling MM - 38.2 with 2 misses. My misses were standing (pretty sure), My time problem was going prone, I'm old and my doc has been after me to replace my right knee, I'd imagine watching me go prone is a hoot, but I'm working on it. It was kind of embarrassing (I was alone, but still) I demo all kinds of prone positions, but I take my time getting into them because of my knee. I also take all the 25-50 yard shots in action pistol standing up, this drill will cause me to work that also.
Another thing I noticed, I was shooting these on NRA AP-1 targets, which have a four inch bull, I found myself shooting slower because of 'aim small, miss small.' I think I'd actually be faster with an IDPA/IPSC target with an 8 inch circle penciled onto the target and just hold upper center mass.
Soon as I hit EX I'm going to be all over someone to design a morale patch.
Eurodriver
10-21-17, 21:15
Soon as I hit EX I'm going to be all over someone to design a morale patch.
Man quit worrying about the patch and go shoot more. It’s not that hard to shoot it clean! ;)
Man quit worrying about the patch and go shoot more. It’s not that hard to shoot it clean! ;)
Says the whipper snapper with the good wheels;) What the geezers lack in speed we'll have to make up for with accuracy.
nightchief
10-21-17, 21:24
Says the whipper snapper with the good wheels;) What the geezers lack in speed we'll have to make up for with accuracy.
At 45 my mind says I'm a whipper snapper, but my body says i'm more of a geezer! :D
I agree about the accuracy part...
Drill #1 Modified Navy Qual
Quote Originally Posted by C-grunt View Post
Here is a drill we run at work. We call it the Navy SEAL drill as one of our officers who is a former SEAL introduced it to us.
Target is a silhouette with an 8 inch circle target zone. We use a TQ-19-AZ target.
Distance is 50 yards.
3 magazines with 5 rounds each.
Drill starts standing. On the buzzer fire 5 rounds. Reload. Then move to intermediate position (ie kneeling). Fire 5 rounds. Reload. Move to prone. Fire 5 rounds.
Par time is 25 seconds. Every second over is +2 seconds. Every shot out of the 8 inch circle is +5 seconds. Every shot off of silhouette is +10 seconds.
A few minor mods based on ability and location at the time. This was shot was a 16" rifle gas length (15" rail) and Vortex 1-4 optic. The distance was a slightly less than 50 yards, I would call it 45, which might not sound like much of a difference, but it is. The trigger is a stock USGI type semi auto trigger. I was using a comp, which worked very well. I don't have much question that a "good" trigger would have made a world of difference. The magazines were NOT grabbed from secured pouches, rather, they were laid out with easy access. In addition to the above, I was shooting a steel 8x11 target which obviously gave a lot more room for error. Last, but certainly not least, I wasn't able to go prone. I fired 5 standing, 5 kneeling, and then went back to standing (reloads in between). I don't feel all that bad about standing instead of going prone as prone shooting is easier for just about everyone. Anyway, not exactly according to the rules, but the variations are out in the open.
https://78.media.tumblr.com/191dad89ad807a6cd46f321e2d6735fd/tumblr_oy76e1VbIy1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
Eurodriver
10-21-17, 23:03
Stick that is good shooting. Standing is defiantly the slowest (for most people). Hard to get an apples to apples comparison given the mag placement and such but that’s still undoubtedly quick. My heart is so happy to see people discussing shooting on this forum :)
Says the whipper snapper with the good wheels;) What the geezers lack in speed we'll have to make up for with accuracy.
I just like giving 26Inf a hard time. He’s the Mr Wilson to my Dennis the Menace!
Pistol drills use a timer or moving target.
Thanks for sharing man. Didn’t mean to call you out in the other thread. Always happy to get more feedback as to what folks are doing to get more proficient.
Stick that is good shooting. Standing is defiantly the slowest (for most people). Hard to get an apples to apples comparison given the mag placement and such but that’s still undoubtedly quick. My heart is so happy to see people discussing shooting on this forum :)
Magnification, mag placement, distance, and slightly larger target certainly come into play, but the shooting felt good and no fumbles or "oops" with mag reloads. Some days it seems like I can't miss, some days I wonder why bullets hate me.
The comp made a big difference. Once the sights stay on target when the shots break, it is a different game. I need to shoot the drill with honest distances and sizes, and with an A2 muzzle device.
Diamondback
10-22-17, 03:21
There’s no rules when it comes to that. Use whatever gun, with whatever optic, firing whatever ammunition you wish.
Or, as a shorter version, "Bring What Ya Got and Fight What Ya Brought." :)
That said, maybe once we get this thing up and running it might be a good idea to have divisions for "Basic Service Rifle" vs. "Anything Goes" like how IPSC set up the Limited-10 division so that single-action single-stack guys running factory guns didn't have to compete on an un-level field against the tricked-out "raceguns" of Open.
MSparks909
10-22-17, 12:46
One drill I try to run (literally and figuratively) is a 100Y sprint followed by 10 hits on an 8" piece of steel from prone. You absolutely need an open or private range for this drill. Really makes you focus on breathing and good trigger control immediately following the 100Y sprint. Start at the target (round chambered and rifle on safe) and on the buzzer turn and sprint to the 100Y line. Drop to prone and fire 10 rounds. I like using steel for immediate feedback.
A par time of 30 seconds is what I usually try to hit. Make no mistake: To hit that time par you are trucking on that 100Y sprint. If that time is not possible no sweat; just adjust the par time accordingly so you have ~10 seconds once you hit the 100Y line to drop to prone and make the shots. If it takes you 30 seconds to run 100Y, make your par 40-45 seconds. If it takes you 45 seconds to sprint 100Y, make the par 55 seconds-1 minute. For each missed shot add 1 second to your time.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-22-17, 17:46
Great feedback !
Thanks.
I think the right to left bit is taught more than diagonal movements and such because of the simplicity and safety of doing so with a large number of people all on the firing line during a class. When there are 15-30 people, it can get a little cluttered on the firing line.
This is why I enjoy going out and shooting by myself or with a partner or two in the wilderness, you can utilize a much larger range of movements with safety not being as much of a concern.
Movement is a huge factor that I believe many people overlook, so is stress.
If anybody has non-topical personal bickering to do, please take my word for it that your PM function works just fine.
So, if you simply MUST wipe your ass, do it out of the public eye, not on the drapes.
I can't believe it....I either broke or dislocated my left hand ring finger at the first joint today. I was going to give the MNQ a shot this Sat. I'll see how it feels Friday.....it's my strong hand.
nightchief
10-28-17, 04:20
Ok, gotta chance to try the MNQ drill again...I have yet to shoot it clean, but have been able to get 14 in the 8" ring. Best time with penalties was 42 secs. Or using Jeff Gonzales scoring method of a 17 over par. Proper breathing was the biggest adjustment I made to improve accuracy. I found my self holding my breath through all 5 shots trying to "go faster". After slowing down just a bit and breathing properly, shooting on the exhale, my standing accuracy improved. More work to do.
The gloves and knee pads helped at my range which is very rocky and full of stickers. They didn't help me with dropping to prone in a fire ant hill though! :eek:
Ran the MNQ today but with stand, kneel, stand. Let's just say it can only get better. I was shooting a 10.5, suppressed with an Aimpoint H1 and an Alg Act trigger. I don't have a shot timer so would estimate half the shots were over that par time. First one I ran was 42 seconds [emoji51] with 7 out of the 8". That puts me at around 85-90 seconds by my math. Went quicker on the second go around at 38 seconds but accuracy was worse to the point I'm not even going to bother adding it up.
I think trying to go quick really affected me. Trigger manipulation suffered as a result as I had a lot of shots pulled low left. I had one mag not lock back so lost time there. Mag changes were not smooth. I was picking them up from the floor so obviously lost time there. I don't have carriers but will wear cargo pants next time so I can at least have them in a pocket.
All in all, pretty miserable but it is a benchmark so gives me something to beat.
nightchief
10-29-17, 19:05
Ran the MNQ today but with stand, kneel, stand. Let's just say it can only get better. I was shooting a 10.5, suppressed with an Aimpoint H1 and an Alg Act trigger. I don't have a shot timer so would estimate half the shots were over that par time. First one I ran was 42 seconds [emoji51] with 7 out of the 8". That puts me at around 85-90 seconds by my math. Went quicker on the second go around at 38 seconds but accuracy was worse to the point I'm not even going to bother adding it up.
I think trying to go quick really affected me. Trigger manipulation suffered as a result as I had a lot of shots pulled low left. I had one mag not lock back so lost time there. Mag changes were not smooth. I was picking them up from the floor so obviously lost time there. I don't have carriers but will wear cargo pants next time so I can at least have them in a pocket.
All in all, pretty miserable but it is a benchmark so gives me something to beat.
I found that if I don't concentrate on exhaling and then pulling the trigger, especially standing, my accuracy really suffers. Its also amazing how much stress a shooter puts on themselves when being timed. mag changes aren't as smooth, proper trigger pulling becomes slapping, etc.
Remembering to breathe, with the timer running, becomes difficult- especially with movement.
While many have what approaches contempt for competitive shooting- I have found that if anything can go wrong, if any equipment is gonna fail, it'll happen in a match/competitive situation.
Now that I think about it, I would bet money I was holding my breathe. The timer definitely induces a level of stress. My plan is to run it again but go deliberatley slow and concentrate on breath, trigger pull and smoothing out the mag changes. I've spent way too much time at the bench this year after I picked up a new bolt gun. It definitely shows.
Diamondback
10-29-17, 19:44
Now that I think about it, I would bet money I was holding my breathe. The timer definitely induces a level of stress. My plan is to run it again but go deliberatley slow and concentrate on breath, trigger pull and smoothing out the mag changes. I've spent way too much time at the bench this year after I picked up a new bolt gun. It definitely shows.
Wyatt Earp used to say "slow is smooth, smooth is fast--you need to learn to shoot slow in a hurry." Meaning, keep focusing on doing the basics smoothly and correctly, and the speed will come with experience. (QV/corollary: "Practice does NOT make perfect--perfect practice makes perfect.")
stxbordergun
11-03-17, 12:23
One of my favorites has always been the 1/2 and 1/2 drill from Mike Pannone/Viking Tactics.
3 strings of fire, 10 rounds each, 30 rounds total
1st string is from 20 yards - 10 sec par time
2nd string from 10 yards - 5 sec par time
3rd string from 5 yards - 2.5 sec par time
Scoring zone is the A zone of a USPSA target but a better challenge is a 3x5 card.
The A zone is pretty big and the par times are generous so I usually run this drill as a "30 in 10 drill". The par times would be more like this:
20 yards - 5 secs
10 yards - 3 secs
5 yards - 2 secs
Sometimes I throw out the 5 yard line and just run 2 strings at 10 yards.
Here is some video:
https://youtu.be/K4hVqG0aTnY
Magnification, mag placement, distance, and slightly larger target certainly come into play, but the shooting felt good and no fumbles or "oops" with mag reloads. Some days it seems like I can't miss, some days I wonder why bullets hate me.
The comp made a big difference. Once the sights stay on target when the shots break, it is a different game. I need to shoot the drill with honest distances and sizes, and with an A2 muzzle device.
Despite the comp used, and after running it again today a few more times, I am convinced Stick is a ninja! Shaved a few seconds off my time to below 40 seconds and lowered my overall time by about 7 seconds to 78.6. On that run, a funny thing happened. I usually shoot pistol reloads from a mag in my weak side pocket. On both reloads I went to my pocket and got half way through pulling my wallet out before I realized and went to my cargo pocket for the AR mag. So, still slow but a little progress that I'll take. Another interesting thing was a friend ran it with his 1-4 and shaved a bunch of time off when he went from 4x to 1x. Going to try it with my 16" and red dot as a opposed to the suppressed 10.5" that I have used so far. I think a shot timer is in my future :)
Euro,
GREAT thread. I'll run the MNQ my next range trip with video to see how I'm doing.
I polished off today's range trip with this course of fire inspired by Pat Mac. Based on a Waypoint course of fire normally performed at 20y, I had the firing positions at 50 and 25 yards, respectively. And because I had them from earlier training, I started off with a 50y farmer's carry with 50lb dumbbells in each hand.
Course of fire is simple:
50 yards - 4 to the body; rifle
reload
25 yards - 2 to the head; rifle
transition
25 yards - 4 to the body; handgun + reload + 2 to the head; handgun
C zone hits add 1 second, D zone add 5 seconds, "credit card" hits subtract 1 second each. Misses add 10 seconds.
Raw time was 69.2 seconds. Adjusted for 1 C zone and 2 credit card boxes, final time was 68.2 seconds. Ran it with the Razor on 1x to make an equal playing field for guys with RDS'.
My dumbass forgot a towel to dry my eye pro with, so I spent the better part of 3 hours today having to fight through it. Hopefully the weather is better my next range trip and I can run this again to see how the times compare. The tape on the back side of the target was from a pistol course of fire just before this run. I had 14 9mm rounds left, so I used 8 at 50y shooting support hand only to cool down before running this guy.
https://youtu.be/_DM-L_ftezY
https://i.imgur.com/NuUEUHm.jpg
Awesome stuff GTF. Dem jams tho
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Diamondback
11-09-17, 17:57
I assume one "credit card" is the eye-box, but where's the other?
I assume one "credit card" is the eye-box, but where's the other?
Hey brother,
It was one of those "never gonna happen again" shots where they almost stacked in the same hole. You can see the splash on target, but here's a pic.
https://i.imgur.com/B4gWqmj.jpg
Also, yep. Eye box, credit card, whatever terminology guys prefer to use. The head A zone just happens to be the same size as a credit card, so we always called it that.
Outlander Systems
11-09-17, 19:39
The videos posted in this thread are outstanding.
Diamondback
11-09-17, 19:52
Hey brother,
It was one of those "never gonna happen again" shots where they almost stacked in the same hole. You can see the splash on target, but here's a pic.
[IMG snipped]
Also, yep. Eye box, credit card, whatever terminology guys prefer to use. The head A zone just happens to be the same size as a credit card, so we always called it that.
THAT is some damn good shooting. General Patton would approve. :) Sorry, thought you were saying there was a second zone, not just a second hit.
THAT is some damn good shooting. General Patton would approve. :) Sorry, thought you were saying there was a second zone, not just a second hit.
Pure luck, I assure you. I guarantee I couldn't do that again if I tried!
That's fine killingsmanship, GTF
The videos posted in this thread are outstanding.
Carrying on Euro’s torch to be certain.
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Got out and shot Drill #2 today.
Raw time of 110.96.
2 rounds saved: -4 sec.
Time for score = 106.96
Target is similar to a "C" Zone at 12"x20".
12.5" BCM Kino upper w/MRO.
48579
Stumbled in the snow and pulled a hammie. :mad:
Hoping to get out and run some others before the snow gets any deeper!
Inspiring thread!
Euro, this drill sounds really good. Do you have, or is there, a version of this that is cut in half? A lot of us only have access to 100 yard ranges so maybe a sprint to 100y, then back to 50y line drill?
Just saw this question.
There is no rigid standard for setup. Any course of fire that incorporates as many mechanics as possible is always a win. If I were limited to a shorter range like 25y, I would load 3 magazines of 5. Starting at the firing line, shuttle sprint to the target and back. 5 in the A zone. Shuttle sprint, 5 in the A zone firing from the support shoulder, rush the 5y line while reloading and put 5 in the brain to work your holdovers, sight tracking, and driving the gun on target during your follow through.
Penalties being +1 sec for C, +5 sec for D, +10 for misses. For the 5 head shots, add 2 seconds for each shot not in the brain box.
Sky is the limit. Just hit the range and push it.
Get some man!
Some Advil?
stxbordergun
11-11-17, 21:57
Yeah this is a good thread. Hell it got me to join the forum and not just be lurking in the dark!
I still need to get out and shoot the MNQ on camera...practiced a variant of it on steel at 100 but I'm gonna get some video running it by the book pretty soon.
I'm sure some of you have seen the Operator Readiness Test from Redback One. It's a great manipulations drill to test and even practice. Also fun to compete with buddies for bragging rights.
The drill is shot from 7 yards onto 5.5-6in bullseye.
10 rounds loaded rifle. 10 rounds loaded pistol.
Spare mags loaded and ready.
At buzzer:
10 rifle
10 pistol
Reload pistol then 2
Reload rifle then 2
Looking for no shots dropped with rifle and max of 2 shots dropped with pistol.
Per RB1:
Tier 1 -15s
Tier 2 -18s
Tier 3 -20s
Here is some older video from a practice session. No bulls but using half an A zone gets you close. Groups should easily be covered by your hand.
https://youtu.be/2JU34qSVKxA
Outlander Systems
11-12-17, 08:38
@stxbordergun
That's a solid drill. Your transition to pistol was like silk, bro.
stxbordergun,
That will be my next cold drill at the range. Excellent shooting! I'll have a vid my next range trip with a time to see how I can do.
Today, I had to change plans and shoot in a bay vs the cowboy action town that allows for 50y and maneuver. I spent the day working on movement and becoming more efficient with the Razor. The next time the town is available, a MNQ will happen.
Ended the day with two runs on the VTAC 1-5 to bring it all together. Managed this 3.49 clean.
https://youtu.be/YYQWKDhMit0
Also, while not necessarily a rigid drill in the sense of having fixed end times to shoot for, I find shot cadence drills to be of huge benefit. I try to watch my splits and compare them to my time between shots transitioning from a torso to head target and vice versa. Incorporating them into lateral and forward movement has also been beneficial in breaking up over reliance on a rigid stance and making gun handling more fluid overall.
Just an example of what I'm talking about. I would definitely compete this with a group of guys, but by myself I just watch splits and use courses of fire like this to track how efficiently I'm able to transition shot placement on a target, follow my sights, and stay consistent with trigger control.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWxq6KsA2OU
stxbordergun,
That will be my next cold drill at the range. Excellent shooting! I'll have a vid my next range trip with a time to see how I can do.
Today, I had to change plans and shoot in a bay vs the cowboy action town that allows for 50y and maneuver. I spent the day working on movement and becoming more efficient with the Razor. The next time the town is available, a MNQ will happen.
Ended the day with two runs on the VTAC 1-5 to bring it all together. Managed this 3.49 clean.
https://youtu.be/YYQWKDhMit0
RANGE
NINJA
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Here is a drill we run at work. We call it the Navy SEAL drill as one of our officers who is a former SEAL introduced it to us.
Target is a silhouette with an 8 inch circle target zone. We use a TQ-19-AZ target.
Distance is 50 yards.
3 magazines with 5 rounds each.
Drill starts standing. On the buzzer fire 5 rounds. Reload. Then move to intermediate position (ie kneeling). Fire 5 rounds. Reload. Move to prone. Fire 5 rounds.
Par time is 25 seconds. Every second over is +2 seconds. Every shot out of the 8 inch circle is +5 seconds. Every shot off of silhouette is +10 seconds.
A good time is under 40 seconds
Finally got a chance to get out.
First time shooting a rifle in a couple months.
Did the drill 3 Times (only rifle shooting I did today).
Using the scoring you detail, 2nd round was “33 sec”
1st was 50, 3rd was 45 sec.
I found out I’m weak in the kneeling position and I should use my sling next time- doh!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/42r394gcl4mmm5d/Photo%20Nov%2018%2C%205%2028%2020%20PM.png?raw=1
Mr. Goodtimes
12-14-17, 19:46
I got out to the range today and did a little shooting and moving so I thought I would give this thread a bump in honor of M4C’s savior, Eurodriver.
https://youtu.be/qcH9nufmJnU
B/C Steel at 50 yds, Two barricades 25yds apart, 70lb dumb bell between barricades, 100lb sandbag at Target. 10 shots (divided into 5 in 2 mags). Rifle unloaded on ground by dumb bell. Upon buzzer perform 20 reps (10 each arm) DB snatch, retrieve sandbag from berm. Load rifle and proceed to either barricade. Once at barricade shooter will engage target with one hit from kneeling strong side, standing strong side, kneeling weak side, upon all three hits shooter will proceed to next barricade and repeat.
https://youtu.be/eWq48XkHV5s
Set it Off (Pat Mac)
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nightchief
12-14-17, 20:01
Cool. I was disappointed in no "get you some" at the end. ;) The running and lifting heavy "stuff" is a good test but fun. I've done a couple of drills like that, albeit with less weight. Have you run this previous? What's a "good" or par time for the drill? I'd like to give this a go too.
I finally shot the damn Navy Qual drill clean in 32 secs on Tuesday. Couldn't repeat it again in two more tries though.
Mr. Goodtimes
12-14-17, 21:21
Cool. I was disappointed in no "get you some" at the end. ;) The running and lifting heavy "stuff" is a good test but fun. I've done a couple of drills like that, albeit with less weight. Have you run this previous? What's a "good" or par time for the drill? I'd like to give this a go too.
I finally shot the damn Navy Qual drill clean in 32 secs on Tuesday. Couldn't repeat it again in two more tries though.
Only Pat Mac can be Pat Mac. I like what he preaches and my training reflects it. While physical exertion shouldn’t be part of every drill, it is an important part of training. I have ran “Set it Off” in the past but the video was the only run of it today.
The other drill I had not done this drill in the past (prior to today). A friend gave it to me and I modified it by adding in the snatches and sandbag carry. I ran the drill five times total and the video was my last and fastest run by about 2 seconds. I did it in 105.48, I would say an appropriate par time should be around 150 seconds. If someone can’t complete the drill with a 70lb dumbbell and 100lb sandbag then id recommend using lighter weight as opposed to adding more time.
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I'll share a drill that the highest speed guy I know shared with me a month ago. he calls it slick willie (heh) as it's basically a bill drill, reload, el prez, reload, bill drill. i run it with pistol and carbine. 24 rounds, 3 mag changes. my goal with a clean run with 1.5 sec draw, .2 splits and .3 transitions and 1 sec mag changes would be 9 seconds, but i'm running around 2x that because i spend all my free time with bolt guns over the past half dozen years and have gotten really rusty
Had a great time training today with an old friend from California. Here's me running one of my favorite drills...the V-TAC 1-5. Not my fastest, it was around 20 degrees here in the high desert this morning and I was freezing. I know, excuses excuses.
https://youtu.be/8ppSMXrA6d8
Mr. Goodtimes
12-20-17, 08:44
I modified Pat McNamara’s “Set It Off” by placing the steel at 200m and starting the drill off with a 200m sprint.
https://youtu.be/UcF5EN3jN_o
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stxbordergun
02-13-18, 20:39
Still haven't gotten a video of the MNQ although I used a variation of it in a course I did for some dudes.
However, I was happy to see Mike Pannone post the Headhunter Drill on his YouTube channel. It has inspiration from the Half and Half drill which is one of my favorites. I would usually run it modified to increase the difficulty so I was glad to see the Headhunter Drill address the fairly slow par times and large scoring zone of the Half and Half drill.
Headhunter Drill
-All rounds fired are headshots onto USPSA/IDPA target.
-20 yards 5 rounds 3.5s par time (2x)
-10 yards 5 rounds 2.5s par time (2x)
-5 yards 5 rounds 1.5s par time (2x)
-30 rounds total, 3 targets, 10 rounds per head
https://youtu.be/M33cEcISeE0
MSparks909
02-13-18, 21:42
Still haven't gotten a video of the MNQ although I used a variation of it in a course I did for some dudes.
However, I was happy to see Mike Pannone post the Headhunter Drill on his YouTube channel. It has inspiration from the Half and Half drill which is one of my favorites. I would usually run it modified to increase the difficulty so I was glad to see the Headhunter Drill address the fairly slow par times and large scoring zone of the Half and Half drill.
Headhunter Drill
-All rounds fired are headshots onto USPSA/IDPA target.
-20 yards 5 rounds 3.5s par time (2x)
-10 yards 5 rounds 2.5s par time (2x)
-5 yards 5 rounds 1.5s par time (2x)
-30 rounds total, 3 targets, 10 rounds per head
https://youtu.be/M33cEcISeE0
Hell yeah. Doing this drill tomorrow!
nightchief
02-14-18, 20:49
Cool. Similar to the VTAC half and half drill. I like these "up" drills that focus on accuracy, but require speed to accomplish. Seems like the best sort of fundamental work. I like to use a combination of these sort of drills as warm up on every range trip. Still trying to shoot the MMQ with a score under 30 secs. I usually miss one either standing or kneeling or go to slow when shooting it clean. Glad to see folks out shooting in the "cold" Texas Winter!
reread the OP, waiting on approval
nightchief
04-16-19, 21:16
In keeping with the shoot more, buy less theme, thought this thread should be resurrected...
A friend and i were shooting some short range (7 yds, 15 yds and 25 yds) drills today working on offset and recoil management. We were going for 5 shot groups all inside the index card as fast as could be shot clean. My results were less than optimum on keeping them all in.
56877
Slowing down a bit helped a little, but I still found it difficult to get a 5 shot group into the index card in sub 4 seconds. Shooting from the low ready, 11.5 w/suppressor and EXPS2 sight. How do i get it tighter at that speed? I've been working on gripping the hell out of the rifle with support hand, pulling tight into the shoulder pocket.
Next outing we're gonna shoot that damn Modified Navy Qual again too...haven't shot that in a while!
Eurodriver
04-17-19, 08:41
4 seconds at what range?
FWIW I’ve found my splits slower with a suppressor. The added weight and gas face is not conducive to speed.
nightchief
04-17-19, 09:40
4 seconds at what range?
FWIW I’ve found my splits slower with a suppressor. The added weight and gas face is not conducive to speed.
7 yds and 12 yds. We also shot this standard from 25 yds,but at 25 we were more in the 5-6 second range
Eurodriver
06-26-19, 12:58
Noonesshowmonkey, DocSherm, RobertTheTexan and I shot the MNQ together last weekend.
Using a LPVO on my 12.5” my best score was a 2. I had a clean shoot in 25.93 seconds. For comparison I was using a 11.5” with a T1 in the OP. Both had PEQs and were unsuppressed.
I was impressed, and think the 1-6/1-8 shift away from red dots is a really good thing for SBRs. I will be swapping out my 1-6 Poortex with a 1-8 NF ATACR. I think the reticle is more conducive to speed and the FFP nature of it better for holds. It’s also 6oz lighter and smaller.
I would like to do Drill #2 from the OP with a LPVO for a solid comparison sometime soon.
In keeping with the shoot more, buy less theme, thought this thread should be resurrected...
A friend and i were shooting some short range (7 yds, 15 yds and 25 yds) drills today working on offset and recoil management. We were going for 5 shot groups all inside the index card as fast as could be shot clean. My results were less than optimum on keeping them all in.
56877
Slowing down a bit helped a little, but I still found it difficult to get a 5 shot group into the index card in sub 4 seconds. Shooting from the low ready, 11.5 w/suppressor and EXPS2 sight. How do i get it tighter at that speed? I've been working on gripping the hell out of the rifle with support hand, pulling tight into the shoulder pocket.
Next outing we're gonna shoot that damn Modified Navy Qual again too...haven't shot that in a while!
My input;
Shot to shot cadence/speed “takes what it takes” to get hits.
Trim time where you can.
First shot speed is critical on this type of drill.
Use a VFG or KAG if you’re not. Support hand is a big part of the equation shooting at speed.
What are your splits averaging at 5, 10, whatever?
Start with stock in the pocket so no adjustment is necessary, other than bringing optic/sights to your face and pressing trigger.
Dry fire practice mounting and breaking shot helps me groove in muscle memory for quicker first shot.
um I shot it too, I just kinda monkey stumped it and was too lameass to retry it. Its a deceptive course of fire that seems easy but can be a challemnge. I just didnt like the poortex. That dot isnt daytime bright enough forcme or I shoulda worn my glasses one
Eurodriver
06-26-19, 14:08
um I shot it too, I just kinda monkey stumped it and was too lameass to retry it. Its a deceptive course of fire that seems easy but can be a challemnge. I just didnt like the poortex. That dot isnt daytime bright enough forcme or I shoulda worn my glasses one
I deliberately didn’t include you. 50y for you is like two or three steps. Giants shoot at 100y.
:)
I deliberately didn’t include you. 50y for you is like two or three steps. Giants shoot at 100y.
:)
No, it was 4 steps.....LOLOLOLOL
Bumping this thread up.
Shot the Modified Navy Qual in 21.33 clean for a -3 score. That is a deceptively difficult drill, as on paper it’s rather underwhelming but that’s a surprising amount of work done in 25 seconds.
How are the other members doing? Anyone got any benchmarks for us to shoot for?
https://i.imgur.com/gc4N7tJh.jpg
nightchief
07-31-19, 13:23
Bumping this thread up.
Shot the Modified Navy Qual in 21.33 clean for a -3 score. That is a deceptively difficult drill, as on paper it’s rather underwhelming but that’s a surprising amount of work done in 25 seconds.
How are the other members doing? Anyone got any benchmarks for us to shoot for?
Excellent! Right now if just trying to consistently shoot this qual clean within 40 secs, then I can work on getting it better! When I push the speed, my accuracy suffers.
I am looking for a carbine version of Chuck Pressburg's "No Fail Pistol" qual.
Man, that No Fail drill is absolutely no joke. I haven’t been able to shoot it clean, despite routinely being able to slow fire 95+ on a B-8.
Something about having to perform like that for a string of 10 really speaks to the discipline of a shooter who can clean it. Props to them, and to Mr. Pressburg for walking the walk in the demo vid.
nightchief
07-31-19, 14:23
Man, that No Fail drill is absolutely no joke. I haven’t been able to shoot it clean, despite routinely being able to slow fire 95+ on a B-8.
Something about having to perform like that for a string of 10 really speaks to the discipline of a shooter who can clean it. Props to them, and to Mr. Pressburg for walking the walk in the demo vid.
How did you get to being able to shoot the MNQ at that speed? I struggle with shooting fast and accurately when standing. My mag changes are around 3.5 secs between shots, and I'm noticeably faster kneeling and prone segments. I think if I could get more consistent speed when standing, I would get better results. I'm working on incremental change, but as of now, I'm stalled. 1x4 at 4x or red dot doesn't seem to matter either.
How did you get to being able to shoot the MNQ at that speed?
I don't necessarily believe I shoot quickly, so much as I was fortunate to have some good mentors and quality instruction along the way that helped build a relatively consistent foundation for me to fall back on. I've never focused on doing one particular task, rather I try to put multiple mechanics in to my shooting.
Here are the reloads from my MNQ run as well as the 5 kneeling shots. Instead of focusing on reloading, or shooting kneeling, I just perform the tasks as a string and incorporate them in to other courses of fire. Doing 100 reps of reloads would be an inefficient use of training time. Instead, along with those 100 reloads, I can also have 50 movements in to and out of a kneeling position with an accurate hit at X distance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtD2npzSpBg
Plenty of faster shooters than I am, but I'm just trying to keep the edge sharp and have a good time. I'm grateful to have learned from some truly talented shooters along the way.
nightchief,
Take that shot cadence at 50, and here's a vid of shooting at a B/C steel at 200. It's not really that much different (I mean...it's obviously slower), and hits are hits. If you can focus on building and becoming familiar with your natural point of aim as well as learn to trust the "wobble zone" in your sights while insuring you control the trigger, then I think the speed will come as a byproduct of being efficient. I've noticed a lot of dudes ambush the trigger when their sights come in to alignment and that flinch throws off what would have likely been a good hit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HjLe-VdEq0
Not a coach, and also not a professional shooter. But I hope this helps, and if you'd like to ever talk through PM, hit me up.
Here's my observation:
-You live and die by reloads.
-Every position change means you are for a moment taking your eye off the ball
-Trigger control and posture counts
These are such easy, elementary, week 1 day 1 concepts but when rubber meets the road become all the more humbling.
A lot of youtube people try to come up with gunkata and sit ups while shooting an AK or other theatrics but at days end....
It all boils down to refined fundamentals.
And shooting really is a perishable skill.
Can we get this thread made a sticky since it’s actually about shooting?
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Can we get this thread made a sticky since it’s actually about shooting?
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This, please. This is probably THE most No BS thread in all of M4C. It’s either on paper or it isn’t.
You are either beating the clock or you aren’t.
Agreed, 100%
This thread is inspiring me to get out more and run some drills. When my arm heals up I'm for sure gonna get a timer and shoot some MNQs.
I have no doubt it'll be a humbling experience, but you don't get better by just doing the same things over and over that you already do well.
nightchief
08-01-19, 18:21
Can we get this thread made a sticky since it’s actually about shooting?
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This...please!
If it gets stickied, everyone will just scroll past it like the rest of the stickies.
If it gets stickied, everyone will just scroll past it like the rest of the stickies.
This.
Just go shoot, guys.
Shot the mnq for the first time yesterday. Had good runs standing and kneeling but had a heck of a time prone. Shooting a 1-6 and could not get a good position. Kept losing the reticle. I know where to practice.
nightchief
08-06-19, 14:55
Today's mediocre results on the MNQ using Jeff Gonzales' scoring method of 2 pts for every sec over 24 and 5 for every thing out of the 8 ring...
No clean quals today...
16" mid Sionics with Steiner 1x4 on 4X
1-38.43", 1 miss = 31
2-36.52, 2 miss = 32
3-35.50, 5 miss = DNQ (47)
6920 with T-1 RDS
1-36.50", 4 miss = DNQ (44)
2-33.09", 2 miss = 28
Definitely gotta work on standing and kneeling and the transition between the two.
Interesting that my best run was with the T-1 not the the Steiner. Almost 100 degrees in the Republic today, and my glasses were fogging from the heat and sweat, so that might have contributed to the better result using the T1, not sure. The reticle on the Steiner was getting blurry by the third run.
This.
Just go shoot, guys.
Yup thats my plan, at 71 and a few replacement parts it's my game, and bad news for the bad guys. Range time today.
Eurodriver
08-19-19, 09:31
. Almost 100 degrees in the Republic today, and my glasses were fogging from the heat and sweat, so that might have contributed to the better result using the T1, not sure. The reticle on the Steiner was getting blurry by the third run.
I hate that. I keep a microfiber in my bag to wipe my forehead and glasses down. Sometimes the sweat is so bad it drips on to my eye pro. I need a sweatband like an 80s pop star!
Also, don’t forget the MNQ is only one drill in the toolbox. You might shoot it better with the T1 but how do you think you’d compare between that and the Steiner if you were shooting 8” gongs at 300y?
I hate that. I keep a microfiber in my bag to wipe my forehead and glasses down. Sometimes the sweat is so bad it drips on to my eye pro. I need a sweatband like an 80s pop star!
Also, don’t forget the MNQ is only one drill in the toolbox. You might shoot it better with the T1 but how do you think you’d compare between that and the Steiner if you were shooting 8” gongs at 300y?
We did other drills yesterday. Different targets at different ranges and moving. I think he did better with his Steiner then his reflex sights.
And it was HOT......... VERY HOT.
nightchief
08-19-19, 11:41
I hate that. I keep a microfiber in my bag to wipe my forehead and glasses down. Sometimes the sweat is so bad it drips on to my eye pro. I need a sweatband like an 80s pop star!
Also, don’t forget the MNQ is only one drill in the toolbox. You might shoot it better with the T1 but how do you think you’d compare between that and the Steiner if you were shooting 8” gongs at 300y?
Microfiber cloth is a really good idea. Simple. No doubt about using a T1 on a 8” gong at 300 yds, I wouldn’t be able to see the gong at 300.
LPV is a must (for me anyway) for targets beyond 100 yards. I was out yesterday and we were running some drills engaging multiple targets (C Zone steels) at different distances. It was all within 50 yds, but if it was much beyond that, the LPV would be really start to outshine the EO Tech, as magnification would be needed just to identify the targets.
The other shooter, who was also running an LPV, mentioned the target acquiring speed with the EO Tech at our distance. We discussed doing a similar drill at 100 or greater and how the LPV would overtake the dot sight. I think if we try this drill at 100 or greater, we’ll add some no shoots too, so target identification becomes an issue.
As we progressed through the drills, incorporating moving to different shooting locations, and using representative cover, I began to miss the hits. The added problem solving of moving, re-acquiring, changing mags, and increasing heart rate impacted my performance. This just comes back full circle to the MNQ, as it does works on all but the moving part.
Dirtyboy333
10-27-19, 21:59
Good thread! I’m gonna have to try some of these to add some spice up to my range time.
Thanks for all the good information and how to train videos.
ViniVidivici
10-30-19, 22:11
Been incorporating the MNQ to the regimen lately. Gettin' better. I've run it with an 11.5 w/RDS, and an 18" w/ LPV. So far, best run has been with the long gun, 30.72 w/ 3 misses.
Gettin' there. I admit it's tougher than you think!
Been hammering the MNQ drill A LOT lately. Best run so far has been 28 seconds with no misses... That should be a +6
It was done with a DD 16 inch bbl and an EO tech EXPS2. For me, this is faster than a 1-6 LPV scope.
It’s a humbling drill. The hardest part for me was kneeling.
ViniVidivici
12-31-19, 10:33
It is humbling, as it looks easy on paper.
And I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks the kneeling is the toughest. Done alot of shooting standing, and alot from the prone. Seems tough to get into a good kneeling position quickly.
So that drill tells me to work on that particular thing. Win.
I also shoot El Pres with carbine and rifle. I can usually do it clean in the 10-11 sec range. Workin' on that too.
If your range doesn’t allow these types of drills I suggest you find a 3gun competition in your area. You might not have a benchmark time for the drills , but at least you’ll be out moving and shooting. Static square ranges will only get you so far.
Forgot about this thread. Next range trip I'll be giving the MNQ another go. May even try it at 25 yards with a 4" bullseye for S&G's.
Took my 15 yo son and 9 yo daughter to the range. I Function checked an AR that I should have never fooled with, and it is running.
I did the MNQ with a score of 37 (not my best)and let my son and daughter take it from there. He proceeded to run the MNQ and had 3 out of five scores under 40, and a best of 32. My daughter learned how to shoot prone and had about 10 head shots out of 15 rounds at the 50 yard mark. Color me impressed, and she wanted to do the MNQ too... She’s obviously not ready for that, but she loves to shoot. I know, she didn’t run a drill, I just had to tell someone.
It was a good day.
Stay Safe
WickedWillis
03-30-20, 10:13
Took my 15 yo son and 9 yo daughter to the range. I Function checked an AR that I should have never fooled with, and it is running.
I did the MNQ with a score of 37 (not my best)and let my son and daughter take it from there. He proceeded to run the MNQ and had 3 out of five scores under 40, and a best of 32. My daughter learned how to shoot prone and had about 10 head shots out of 15 rounds at the 50 yard mark. Color me impressed, and she wanted to do the MNQ too... She’s obviously not ready for that, but she loves to shoot. I know, she didn’t run a drill, I just had to tell someone.
It was a good day.
Stay Safe
I think that's a great range story all around, and more positive than most of what's being put on M4c right now.
I understand this thread is not for that, but I still appreciate reading your post and I am glad you had some good Family bonding time over something you all love.
Here's my observation:
-You live and die by reloads.
-Every position change means you are for a moment taking your eye off the ball
-Trigger control and posture counts
These are such easy, elementary, week 1 day 1 concepts but when rubber meets the road become all the more humbling.
A lot of youtube people try to come up with gunkata and sit ups while shooting an AK or other theatrics but at days end....
It all boils down to refined fundamentals.
And shooting really is a perishable skill.
^This^
Great thread with some neat info. BTW, can someone post the MNQ?
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