View Full Version : Long Distance Pistol Shooting. Do you practice and what ammo do you use?
I am extremely lucky in that I have a 200 yard range at my house and about 500 yards I can shoot 5 minutes away. LAV's walk back drill changed my way of looking at handgun capability. Something kinda clicked in my head when I learned, "damn, I can use this thing for a lot more than blastin at 10 yards". Without a doubt the best money I ever spent was having him teach me how to pull a trigger. I tend to do a lot of my pistol shooting now at 50+ yards. I look at it like dodgeball. If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball. If you can run a drill at 50 and keep A and good B zone hits then you will be a rock star at 7 yards.
I generally only run HK's. I usually set my sights at 50 and check my windage out to 100 as you can have offset at that range that doesn't show up well at 25.
That said, I have personally tested most major mfg's defensive ammo out to 200 in my pistols. I have found HK pistols consistently shoot 124 grain ammo the best with 124gr HST and 124gr HST+P and the same in Gold Dot to be heads above the rest. I have noticed over probably a sample of probably 15 HK 9mm pistols from a P7M8, USP, USP Elite, P30, P30L, & VP9. Once you get back at 50+ yards 115gr and 147gr just doesn't group like the 124 for me.
As a point of reference, I can stack 124gr HST +P in a B8 all day standing at 50 and if I have a rest I can keep most on a B8 at 100. Helps to run a USP Elite:)
I am curious if any of you practice at distance with your carry pistols and if you notice any difference if how tight your groups are with one weight of bullet to the next. If so, which ammo/pistol combos have you noticed work well precision wise? My personal goal is to be proficient enough to keep rounds on the upper chest at any distance you may encounter in a wal-mart, cosco, mall, parking lot. At the very least stay proficient enough to pin an attacker down until help arrives.
Eurodriver
10-10-17, 17:03
This is so weird. I was literally, literally typing out a thread on this very subject and thought "nah, people don't even use sights at 15 yards why bother". I'm glad you did.
I have also shot my carry pistols regularly to 100y. I've also shot my RMR equipped G19 with 147gr Gold Dots to 200. 100 yards with an RMR on a stock G19 is literally cheating, and it isn't that much harder with open sights. Everyone should be able to hit a 1/2 IPSC at 100 yards with their carry pistol. It isn't hard, just that nobody does it.
I use 147gr Gold Dots for carry ammo, and thus only practice with that ammo. 1) It's accurate out of my Stormlake and factory barrels. 2) It's quieter out of my suppressor than 115gr, 3) If I'm shooting something at 200y with my carry gun it's always going to be with carry ammo. I am not out plinking at 200 or 300 yards with 115gr ever.
I regularly do this with my Gen4 w/ RMR. As said, it is quite easy to do so. From the prone on a bag I can get 100% hits at 200 yards. From the kneeling it's about 1 out of 5. Standing is 1 out of 10 maybe. It's hard. The target is small
Absolutely.
I used to push out to 50 yards but 75-100 yards have been my distances with a 2/3 IDPA target.
I use all sorts of guns from Glocks, to 1911s, to revolvers.
For hunting I use a red dot, smaller plate.
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The one that has really surprised me is the P7M8. It is just a very accurate pistol. I have not had it long, and the other day I was doing a walk back drill standing. 50, 65, 75, 85, and 100. One shot at each distance, applying what hold I had found the pistol to have. I was shocked when I walked back down range and all but one were 10 ring hits, the 5th was well into the 9.
I will be buying a RMR06 from Grant next week after I get back from Knob Creek to go on my Expert. That pistol is like cheating, just like Euro said.
Straight Shooter
10-10-17, 17:31
Ive shot 100 yds with a .45acp a decent bit. That beautiful arc trajectory really tickled my fancy as a young 'un, & still does.
I still do 50 every now and again. Last range trip I did a "walk back...".hell I didnt even know that had an official name..on a small 8" popper with my G19,G17 & G41.
Laser range finder. Was making fast two handed, and decent one handed hits out to a tad over 50yds. Loved the difference in target reaction between the nines & 45. The 45 would literally move the whole target around, the nines just barely moved it.
Gonna try 100 this week with the nines, anxious to see for myself.
Ive shot 100 yds with a .45acp a decent bit. That beautiful arc trajectory really tickled my fancy as a young 'un, & still does.
I still do 50 every now and again. Last range trip I did a "walk back...".hell I didnt even know that had an official name..on a small 8" popper with my G19,G17 & G41.
Laser range finder. Was making fast two handed, and decent one handed hits out to a tad over 50yds. Loved the difference in target reaction between the nines & 45. The 45 would literally move the whole target around, the nines just barely moved it.
Gonna try 100 this week with the nines, anxious to see for myself.
There is a fairly good difference in the drop of the 9 & 45. Relatively speaking the 124gr +P is fairly flat shooting for a pistol. Much more than the Springer Pro I use to carry.
Ned Christiansen
10-10-17, 18:02
Great start to a thread, I think this is important stuff..... my friends and I explore this at every opportunity.
Sticks in the mud would say (preceeded by "Harrumph", and I may be exaggerating just a little for effect)
-Gunfights happen at an average of (insert personal guru's number). It's silly to imagine anything else and downright sissified to actually train for it.
-You can't possibly hit anything at that distance anyway.
-If they're that far away they're no threat and you have no business shooting at them.
I can imagine there would be other reasons given.
My experience in distance shooting is kinda like teaching people Spanish. Stop insisting to yourself that it can't be done. Open you mind and give it a try. If you can't hit at 10 yards, get that fixed and then go to 50 and beyond. If you can hit an Oreo at 25 feet you can hit a clay pigeon at 25 yards and if you can do that you can hit a popper most of the time at 100 and if you can do that and have some idea of holdover, you can make things very hazardous for a bad guy 1t 200!
If you want to talk scenarios, it doesn't take a vivid imagination to come up with a few viable ones, or, just read the headlines. Not everything happens at 7 yards, fact. But I believe some people will be against it almost to the point of "nobody should even know how to do it".
But hell, it's just plain fun. We get to shoot the RETS range sometimes-- pop-ups out to 300. After a few runs of that the 50 yard targets are almost a gimme. And yes, as a matter of fact, two of us (not me) have connected at 300 and it wasn't a wild shot that lucked in. Jeff Chudwin has several 300 yard hits under his belt now, Sweeney a few I think..... I've made hits out to 150, maybe 200, but no 300's.... not yet.
Straight Shooter
10-10-17, 18:13
There is a fairly good difference in the drop of the 9 & 45. Relatively speaking the 124gr +P is fairly flat shooting for a pistol. Much more than the Springer Pro I use to carry.
Im gonna explore this. i just an hour ago got a delivery of Winchester 9mm NATO, MEN 124fmj...and a few hundred Speer 124+P gold Dots & 45 230gr GD's. Gonna play to 100 later this week. Kinda now looking forward to it.
Straight Shooter
10-10-17, 18:16
Great start to a thread, I think this is important stuff..... my friends and I explore this at every opportunity.
Sticks in the mud would say (preceeded by "Harrumph", and I may be exaggerating just a little for effect)
-Gunfights happen at an average of (insert personal guru's number). It's silly to imagine anything else and downright sissified to actually train for it.
-You can't possibly hit anything at that distance anyway.
-If they're that far away they're no threat and you have no business shooting at them.
I can imagine there would be other reasons given.
My experience in distance shooting is kinda like teaching people Spanish. Stop insisting to yourself that it can't be done. Open you mind and give it a try. If you can't hit at 10 yards, get that fixed and then go to 50 and beyond. If you can hit an Oreo at 25 feet you can hit a clay pigeon at 25 yards and if you can do that you can hit a popper most of the time at 100 and if you can do that and have some idea of holdover, you can make things very hazardous for a bad guy 1t 200!
If you want to talk scenarios, it doesn't take a vivid imagination to come up with a few viable ones, or, just read the headlines. Not everything happens at 7 yards, fact. But I believe some people will be against it almost to the point of "nobody should even know how to do it".
But hell, it's just plain fun. We get to shoot the RETS range sometimes-- pop-ups out to 300. After a few runs of that the 50 yard targets are almost a gimme. And yes, as a matter of fact, two of us (not me) have connected at 300 and it wasn't a wild shot that lucked in. Jeff Chudwin has several 300 yard hits under his belt now, Sweeney a few I think..... I've made hits out to 150, maybe 200, but no 300's.... not yet.
Didnt a Texas Ranger JUST this summer, make a one handed shot at either 75 or 100 yards? Am I correct on this, or imagining I heard/read this a couple or three months back?
As for those kinda "sticks in the mud"...I myself dont & wont hang with those kinda Fudd assclowns. I grew up with Elmer Keith and have many of his books. The brother was WAY ahead of the long range game.
Didnt a Texas Ranger JUST this summer, make a one handed shot at either 75 or 100 yards? Am I correct on this, or imagining I heard/read this a couple or three months back?
As for those kinda "sticks in the mud"...I myself dont & wont hang with those kinda Fudd assclowns. I grew up with Elmer Keith and have many of his books. The brother was WAY ahead of the long range game.2014. Austin PD. One handed at 104 yards
One thing is for sure, if you are a bad guy wishing to do harm to people in Texas, you should think twice if Sgt. Adam Johnson is in the vicinity. Johnson shot and killed an active shooter last week. However, the circumstances of the kill shot are amazing.
Steve McQuilliams was shot and killed by Sgt. Adam Johnson. From investigators’ report, Sgt. Johnson shot McQuilliams using a Smith & Wesson M&P .40 caliber handgun from 104 yards away, while holding the reins of two horses
https://freedomoutpost.com/texas-cop-takes-active-shooter-100-yards-away-holding-reins-horses/
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Straight Shooter
10-10-17, 19:30
2014. Austin PD. One handed at 104 yards
One thing is for sure, if you are a bad guy wishing to do harm to people in Texas, you should think twice if Sgt. Adam Johnson is in the vicinity. Johnson shot and killed an active shooter last week. However, the circumstances of the kill shot are amazing.
Steve McQuilliams was shot and killed by Sgt. Adam Johnson. From investigators’ report, Sgt. Johnson shot McQuilliams using a Smith & Wesson M&P .40 caliber handgun from 104 yards away, while holding the reins of two horses
https://freedomoutpost.com/texas-cop-takes-active-shooter-100-yards-away-holding-reins-horses/
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Thats it...thank you. I must have only read or heard about it a few months back. Dude is a SHOTTIST.
Ned Christiansen
10-10-17, 19:48
Only two horses....? :-)
Dayum.
Only two horses....? :-)
Dayum.I know right! Anyone can do that!!!! :D
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The "longest" I've done is 100. It can get tricky with a silencer. Shooting a 14" steel plate at that distance made me realize how little holdover is needed with 9mm. I can't keep 100% yet, but last I tried was a while ago and I've improved noticeably since then.
Long range pistol is fun and makes rifles feel like cheating.
I've found federal Al cases 9mm to be quite accurate. It will hold 3"or less at 25 (10 shot groups).
Loving the performance based threads recently!
When teaching a carbine class or running a LEO qualification, I would have personnel shoot at a silhouette at 100 yards with their handguns before shooting carbines. Those who are experienced with firearms would hit the silhouette with little difficulty. Others would require some coaching. Then the question was posed "would a person with a carbine be legally and morally justified in engaging someone armed with a handgun at 100 yards?"
I've frequently shot a Glock 22 with 180g HST at 200 meters and a hit ratio of over 10% is possible. On a good day 30% is achievable. I shoot a bit better with my Kimber Ultra Carry II and 230g HST. The best way to calculate hold over and hold off for rotational drift is to shoot on a dusty day with a spotter calling your shots and suggesting hold off of target.
Why would you train to shoot at 200 yards? You might be caught out in the open armed with only a pistol to defend yourself. You can learn the probably of being hit by someone armed with a handgun at that distance. They don't have to be trained to hit you at that distance, just lucky. Most important, if you have the mental and physical discipline to hit a target at 200 yards with a handgun, making solid hits inside of 50 yards is second nature.
MSparks909
10-10-17, 21:45
Shooting past 50Y will be MUCH easier with a red dot equipped pistol. The .125W front sights on most of my pistols really start covering the entire target past 60-70 yards. I've taken my MK25 RX with the Sig red dot to 150 on B/C steel with 124+P. Really fun and confidence inspiring.
Coal Dragger
10-11-17, 04:15
I typically run reloads when I practice so that is what I use when stretching my pistols out to 50 yards and beyond. I can usually assemble better pistol ammo myself than I can buy (plinking grade), and for a lot less or a bit less money.
My most accurate handgun is my Freedom Arms M83 in .454 Casull. I realize this thread is defensive pistol oriented so I won't bore you all with the hilarity of pounding targets of opportunity with 300gr bullets at longish (for a handgun) ranges. When I had the RMR on this revolver it was ridiculous what you could hit, running 240gr bullets near 1900fps made hold over less of an issue.
My normal carry gun is my VP9 so it sees the most range use and has proven to be capable out to the 100 yard line. Need to stretch it out further. Like the OP I find 124gr bullets return the best accuracy in my HK barrel. The 124gr Hornady HAP has been particularly satisfying for reasonable component cost.
Yep.
Have found 124 +P HST and GD are most accurate from my carry guns.
Proned out, 100 yds. isn't too difficult.
"Best out of 5" at 100, on your two feet, unsupported, becomes a challenge- especially in wind.
A good trigger helps.
Shooting past 50Y will be MUCH easier with a red dot equipped pistol. The .125W front sights on most of my pistols really start covering the entire target past 60-70 yards. I've taken my MK25 RX with the Sig red dot to 150 on B/C steel with 124+P. Really fun and confidence inspiring.
Try shooting out of the notch and holding the top of the front sight @ C.O.M. You can determine how much the top of the front sight is held over the rear sight at a given range through experimentation.
https://youtu.be/4g1n8cmwhIY
For longer distances of 75 and beyond, my most effective ammunition is a Magnum. Higher powered Magnums like a 357, 44, 454, and 460 have the flatter trajectories with less bullet drop depending upon bullet weight.
But I do shoot standard 9 mm and 45 ACP out to 100 yards in virtually any pistol. I just factor in the bullet drop necessary to carry it out, on a 10” plate or 2/3 IDPA Target.
Instagram: MuzzleblastMD
MisterHelix
10-11-17, 06:58
My backyard range goes to 100 yards, so I shoot pistol at half size steel silhouettes at 65 and full size silhouettes at 100. The RMR'ed G17 I use likes Federal 147 HST, so I use that for my carry ammo, as well as for practice at "longer" ranges. (For higher volume shooting at 0-35 yards the 147 grain ball suffices.)
The Speer 147 gdhp was actually more accurate/precise through my pistol, but informal expansion testing dissuaded me from carrying it.
Federal 9bple 115+p+ has less drop at 100, but was noticeably more sensitive to wind (or had erratic flyers, not sure)
Eurodriver
10-11-17, 07:08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9GSGBIEfhM
200y
C Zone IPSC
1 out of 5 from the kneeling with a Suppressed G19 and RMR.
The wind will jack. you. up. at that distance. I'd love to spend more time learning the wind calls.
Try shooting out of the notch and holding the top of the front sight @ C.O.M. You can determine how much the top of the front sight is held over the rear sight at a given range through experimentation.
Elmer Keith had horizontal, gold bars installed of FS on some of his revolvers to accomplish this.
It works (easier on an N frame S&W with Patridge FS than a Tritium/FO on a P-35 BHP/1911/Glock).
Eurodriver, thanks for the vid. We have steel at 25 - 50 - 100 yards. Once you start shooting your pistols, temptation always gets the best of you. But I have never taken it seriously past 50, guess I gotta get my game on. Also, that being said, I'll have to pony up with some Gold dots or Federal HST's to be serious. Shit 115 grain is not the ideal.
What is the holdover at 100? Trying to get an idea. I think this a perfect application for an RMR, which I don't have. Note to self!
PB
Two LAV advanced Handgun classes I was eliminated from the walk back drill at the 110y line the first time and 100y line the second time. I guess I got worse at the second glass. I cheat tho; I shot the class using Wolf 115gr to save money but when we did the walk back drill(s) I switched to 147gr Freedom Munitions lol.
Ive never tried anything past those distances. I do have access to a 200y range but can't place steel any closer than 200y and I only have a 10" round plate for rifle shooting. Maybe I'll try it!
MisterHelix
10-11-17, 10:46
47956
The holdover isn't as much as you'd think. Aiming at the head or neck of a silhouette target typically results in torso hits.
The 115+P+ had about 3" less drop at 100 yards compared to the 147 grain HST.
Eurodriver
10-11-17, 10:50
Eurodriver, thanks for the vid. We have steel at 25 - 50 - 100 yards. Once you start shooting your pistols, temptation always gets the best of you. But I have never taken it seriously past 50, guess I gotta get my game on. Also, that being said, I'll have to pony up with some Gold dots or Federal HST's to be serious. Shit 115 grain is not the ideal.
What is the holdover at 100? Trying to get an idea. I think this a perfect application for an RMR, which I don't have. Note to self!
PB
Someone can fact check me, but with a 10/50y zero with the RMR I am holding about the A zone on a C zone IPSC target at 100 yards. In a less politically correct way, shoot at a bad guys face and you’ll hit his chest. ETA: Misterhelix posted data above.
At 200 the rounds really just go all over the place. It’s so bad even the drop doesn’t feel consistent. It is very difficult, especially in the wind. I’ll have to shoot at paper this week and get some measured holds on record for 100 and 200.
I would if I could. Local range only goes to 50yd.
47956
The holdover isn't as much as you'd think. Aiming at the head or neck of a silhouette target typically results in torso hits.
The 115+P+ had about 3" less drop at 100 yards compared to the 147 grain HST.
That’s what I use at 100 yards, about an 8” drop with standard 9 mm (non plus P).
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Full sized IPSC steel plate and I hold right on the head and get upper center hits. My son holds our family record.. 10 of 15 out of a box stock Glock 19, standing, two hand unsupported at 100. He makes 200's as well, but the hit ratio drops below 50%.
We shoot at those distances quite a bit, especially when we get bored while our buddies sight in their hunting rifles. They never cease to be amazed you can do that with a Glock, much less a handgun.
nightchief
10-11-17, 19:45
What a great and timely thread! I've been regularly practicing at 25 yards and 50 yards with a G17. Gonna work on 100 yards next as I'm shooting in a competition in a few weeks and the rumor is there will be a 100 yd pistol shot to make. Anyone have data out to 100 using 124 gr HST's?
MisterHelix
10-11-17, 19:55
What a great and timely thread! I've been regularly practicing at 25 yards and 50 yards with a G17. Gonna work on 100 yards next as I'm shooting in a competition in a few weeks and the rumor is there will be a 100 yd pistol shot to make. Anyone have data out to 100 using 124 gr HST's?
Zeroed at what distance?
I use a 10/50 yard zero. 147's have 8.6" of drop at 100, 115+P+ has 5.9", so 124's are probably somewhere in between.
Edit #1: my data was from a g19 with an extended/threaded barrel. Oughta be close to a g17.
Edit #2: If you don't have the time/opportunity to chrono your load, run the data, and proof it out at 100 yards, I'd say aim for the center of the face/head of the silhouette (or the top edge of the target).
nightchief
10-11-17, 20:35
Zeroed at what distance?
I use a 10/50 yard zero. 147's have 8.6" of drop at 100, 115+P+ has 5.9", so 124's are probably somewhere in between.
Edit #1: my data was from a g19 with an extended/threaded barrel. Oughta be close to a g17.
Edit #2: If you don't have the time/opportunity to chrono your load, run the data, and proof it out at 100 yards, I'd say aim for the center of the face/head of the silhouette (or the top edge of the target).
10/50 it what I was considering. No, I won't be able to chrono the load, but the data you just supplied gives a good ballpark where to aim. Thank you.
Elmer Keith had horizontal, gold bars installed of FS on some of his revolvers to accomplish this.
It works (easier on an N frame S&W with Patridge FS than a Tritium/FO on a P-35 BHP/1911/Glock).
I shoot 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 and 1 full sight over the top of the rear using a bone stock Glock 22 with factory night sights. Maybe a person could increase the hit percentage at 200 meters with the Elmer Keith modification.
The bottom line is that you train that you are not out of the fight at distances out to 200 meters when armed with a pistol.
Coal Dragger
10-11-17, 23:34
I suppose this is where guys carrying 4" .357 Magnums can feel smug knowing they're working with a fairly flat trajectory. Same for the .357 SIG fans, .38 Super, and 9X23 Winchester, and of course 10mm.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-12-17, 00:21
I usually blast tula/wolf 9mm for ~16 cents a round. Or whatever brass is cheapest. I can shoot dime sized groups at 10 yards with the cheap stuff.
100 yards? Meh, I mess around with that range with pistols sometimes but I consider anything past 30ish yards rifle territory.
I'm a pretty good shot, had plenty of training, but I find anything past 50 yards very challenging with pistols. If you guys can get consistent hits with pistols at 100 that is pretty damn good and impressive. I'm not going to BS and claim I can make solid hits at distance with a pistol.;)
My sincere hope is- if the situation arises where I need to shoot at someone, I have a "long gun" in my hands.
The reality is, I probably won't.
Training to make hits with a handgun at distance is a skill I'll have a snowballs chance in hell of needing.
I would rather have that skill and never need to use it, than to need that skill- and have no clue of "what comes next"?
Do I make consistent A/C zone hits at 100 yds.? Nope.
Do you want me shooting at you at 100 yds. with my carry gun? Nope.
Eurodriver
10-12-17, 05:49
My sincere hope is- if the situation arises where I need to shoot at someone, I have a "long gun" in my hands.
The reality is, I probably won't.
Training to make hits with a handgun at distance is a skill I'll have a snowballs chance in hell of needing.
I would rather have that skill and never need to use it, than to need that skill- and have no clue of "what comes next"?
Do I make consistent A/C zone hits at 100 yds.? Nope.
Do you want me shooting at you at 100 yds. with my carry gun? Nope.
The average big-box store here is ~160,000sq feet. That's 400x400ft - or 133 yards x 133 yards. If someone is on the other side of a grocery store with a weapon, that means you could easily be faced with having to make a 100yd+ shot
While the odds are small you will need to ever shoot someone at all - and from there it is even smaller that you will need to shoot someone at 100+ yards - if you do need to make that long distance shot the probability is almost 1 that you will only be armed with a pistol unless you are a Marine in Afghanistan or an LEO on an active shooter call.
It's not a bad skill to hone, and it's fun.
What always comes to my mind is the Columbine blow job.
First responder on scene had an opportunity to cap one of the pukes on the front steps of the school, at the start of the ordeal.
Armed with his service pistol he passed on taking the shot at 40 (?) yds, for fear of hitting bystanders.
Not playing "what if" so much as suggesting that more/better training = better performance/results.
I typically run reloads when I practice so that is what I use when stretching my pistols out to 50 yards and beyond. I can usually assemble better pistol ammo myself than I can buy (plinking grade), and for a lot less or a bit less money.
My most accurate handgun is my Freedom Arms M83 in .454 Casull. I realize this thread is defensive pistol oriented so I won't bore you all with the hilarity of pounding targets of opportunity with 300gr bullets at longish (for a handgun) ranges. When I had the RMR on this revolver it was ridiculous what you could hit, running 240gr bullets near 1900fps made hold over less of an issue.
My normal carry gun is my VP9 so it sees the most range use and has proven to be capable out to the 100 yard line. Need to stretch it out further. Like the OP I find 124gr bullets return the best accuracy in my HK barrel. The 124gr Hornady HAP has been particularly satisfying for reasonable component cost.
This is important. While you can certainly blast away with the cheapest ball you can find, there is a HUGE difference in how well some ammo groups compared to others. I've had decent to very good luck with MEN and AE 124gr. If I'm checking duty/self defense ammo I usually use the ammo I have cycled out of my carry stash. In fact for a few years now I have been using LR pistol shooting as THE way to "dispose" of my older carry ammo. I don't waste the good stuff up close.
I also reload and the 125gr HAP bullet has been absolutely terrific at range. Sonething else I have been meaning to try for the fun of it is Piney Mountain 9mm tracers and load my own. If you haven't shot at distance before, tracers will give you a great idea of how much drop you have.
I tend to do things like draw on a timer from various ranges past 50 and do one precise shot on steel as fast as I can. I move around like one would practicing different distances with a bow. I also may draw at say10-15 yards on the timer, do any number of common pistol drills then run back to 50, 75, or 100, take cover then practice precise shots on the upper chest/head. Think if you walked up on the Hollywood Bank Robbers as a cop as they came out. Fire a few shots to at the very least buy you time to get to cover across the street and then while winded try to concentrate your fire on exposed body parts. You can use a cardboard copy of a vest to paint the protected area on a steel target black. It can be extremely challenging and most importantly a confidence booster. Like others have said, this is where a RMR, a great trigger and good ammo shine.
I was zeroing my HK USP 9 Tactical the other day. I was actually at 100 yards making sure I had my windage right. This just shows how close the 124gr HST +P and 124gr +P Gold Dot perform...
47972
This is when I was checking my duty ammo with my P7M8 that I mentioned in the OP. Even this one surprised me. The P7 is awesome.
47973
BTW, has LAV done a P7 (P7M8/M13) video yet? I looked and could not find one. If not, I am hereby suggesting the idea. Very unique pistol.
Eurodriver, thanks for the vid. We have steel at 25 - 50 - 100 yards. Once you start shooting your pistols, temptation always gets the best of you. But I have never taken it seriously past 50, guess I gotta get my game on. Also, that being said, I'll have to pony up with some Gold dots or Federal HST's to be serious. Shit 115 grain is not the ideal.
What is the holdover at 100? Trying to get an idea. I think this a perfect application for an RMR, which I don't have. Note to self!
PB
Give MEN 124gr or Federal AE (red box) 124gr a try before you waste good defensive ammo on it.
What a great and timely thread! I've been regularly practicing at 25 yards and 50 yards with a G17. Gonna work on 100 yards next as I'm shooting in a competition in a few weeks and the rumor is there will be a 100 yd pistol shot to make. Anyone have data out to 100 using 124 gr HST's?
A good/safe bet is center of head hold for high chest/neck hits. Roughly shoulder line/neck hold for traditional A zone chest hits. YMMV
I shoot 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 and 1 full sight over the top of the rear using a bone stock Glock 22 with factory night sights. Maybe a person could increase the hit percentage at 200 meters with the Elmer Keith modification.
The bottom line is that you train that you are not out of the fight at distances out to 200 meters when armed with a pistol.
The last line is the best way to sum it up. I can't help but imagine how the Hollywood Bank Shootout would have been if the first handful of responding officers had just came from the range doing walk back drills and kept cool heads.
Torso-sized steel, even B/C-zone sized steel at 100 isn't anywhere near as hard as people imagine. And it's a great parlor trick to take food/beer/ammo from those who think it can't be done.
Ammo matters a lot less than you'd think, too. After fundamentals, it's more about knowing your sight regulation.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usconcealedcarry.com/texas-man-saves-cops-life-with-a-long-shot/amp/
A pretty good read on the subject.
I spent quite a bit of time in the 80’s laying on my back, trying to topple rams at 200 meters. I love the smell of burning pant cuffs in the morning...
Coal Dragger
10-12-17, 12:02
This is important. While you can certainly blast away with the cheapest ball you can find, there is a HUGE difference in how well some ammo groups compared to others. I've had decent to very good luck with MEN and AE 124gr. If I'm checking duty/self defense ammo I usually use the ammo I have cycled out of my carry stash. In fact for a few years now I have been using LR pistol shooting as THE way to "dispose" of my older carry ammo. I don't waste the good stuff up close.
I also reload and the 125gr HAP bullet has been absolutely terrific at range. Sonething else I have been meaning to try for the fun of it is Piney Mountain 9mm tracers and load my own. If you haven't shot at distance before, tracers will give you a great idea of how much drop you have.
I tend to do things like draw on a timer from various ranges past 50 and do one precise shot on steel as fast as I can. I move around like one would practicing different distances with a bow. I also may draw at say10-15 yards on the timer, do any number of common pistol drills then run back to 50, 75, or 100, take cover then practice precise shots on the upper chest/head. Think if you walked up on the Hollywood Bank Robbers as a cop as they came out. Fire a few shots to at the very least buy you time to get to cover across the street and then while winded try to concentrate your fire on exposed body parts. You can use a cardboard copy of a vest to paint the protected area on a steel target black. It can be extremely challenging and most importantly a confidence booster. Like others have said, this is where a RMR, a great trigger and good ammo shine.
I was zeroing my HK USP 9 Tactical the other day. I was actually at 100 yards making sure I had my windage right. This just shows how close the 124gr HST +P and 124gr +P Gold Dot perform...
47972
This is when I was checking my duty ammo with my P7M8 that I mentioned in the OP. Even this one surprised me. The P7 is awesome.
47973
BTW, has LAV done a P7 (P7M8/M13) video yet? I looked and could not find one. If not, I am hereby suggesting the idea. Very unique pistol.
Nice shooting. Reminds me that I need a USP Tactical or Expert in 9mm in my life.
As to the point about ammunition, you are spot on. Attempting any kind of meaningful long distance practice or training while using ammo that groups like butt crack ass at 25 yards is pointless.
This would be akin to buying an Accuracy International with a .308 Winchester barrel, and running Malaysian surplus 7.62 Ball in it at 1000 yards.
sundance435
10-12-17, 13:33
Didnt a Texas Ranger JUST this summer, make a one handed shot at either 75 or 100 yards? Am I correct on this, or imagining I heard/read this a couple or three months back?
As for those kinda "sticks in the mud"...I myself dont & wont hang with those kinda Fudd assclowns. I grew up with Elmer Keith and have many of his books. The brother was WAY ahead of the long range game.
Is this what you're thinking of? Happened a few years ago, but it didn't get much press.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/06/austin-cop-sure-shot-stopped-crazed-gunman.html
As far as training at distance - Columbine and Pulse shootings come to mind as far as stopping a nightmare early if there was more realistic training. Anyone in LE knows that standard quals are a joke, but 95%+ of cops don't put in any more than that. It's tough to find a place to do it in more urban areas.
Is this what you're thinking of? Happened a few years ago, but it didn't get much press.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/06/austin-cop-sure-shot-stopped-crazed-gunman.html
Here's another one from 1994 - first synopsis is from Wiki - second is much better....
On 20 June 1994, Dean Mellberg, an ex-Air Force member, entered the base hospital (at Fairchild AFB) and shot and killed four people and wounded 23 others......
......The gunman then walked out of the building into the parking lot and killed Anita Lindner. He then was confronted by a security policeman, Senior Airman Andy Brown. From approximately 70 yards away, Brown ordered Mellberg to drop his weapon. After Mellberg refused, Brown fired four shots from his 9mm pistol, with two rounds hitting the perpetrator in the head and shoulder, killing him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Air_Force_Base
Police training in the civilian world was, shall we say, “lacking” back in 1994. But even considering how bad civilian police training could be, the military seemed to be about twenty years behind that. And bad training gets people killed. So in 1994, if you’d asked me how I’d expect an Air Force Security Policeman with a pistol to fare against a murderous lunatic with an AK, I’d have answered, “The zoomie’s gonna die.”
Zoomie Andy Brown didn’t die.
Brown had realized his training wasn’t good enough. So he sought additional training on his own, bought a pistol similar to his issued weapon to practice with off duty, mentally rehearsed responses to various threats, and committed himself to decisive action long before Dean Mellberg walked into the Fairchild AFB hospital with a rifle. When Brown heard the “shots fired” call on the radio he pedaled over as fast as he could, followed the screams, confronted Mellberg, and calmly returned fire while being shot at.
Brown fired only four shots. Two were hits, and one was almost right between the eyes. With an M9 pistol. From seventy yards away. I used to help train officers how to respond to active shooters, and Brown’s response was near perfect.
And that leads to another fascinating aspect of this story: Brown didn’t understand how well he had done. For well over a decade, he thought he had taken way too long to arrive at the hospital, then took too long to fire, then took too long to make a lethal hit. He experienced unwarranted guilt over actions he thought weren’t good enough. Nobody in the Air Force talked him through it, nobody made sure he understood he had done far better than anyone could have expected, nobody stopped him from breaking ties with his Fairchild support system and moving to another base. When the unreasonable guilt pushed him to seek psychological help, the Air Force’s reaction was to relieve him of duty and take his weapon (three times). He eventually got out of the Air Force and moved on with his life, but kept berating himself about what he thought was his inadequate response to the Fairchild shooting.
In 1995 Brown sent a Freedom of Information Act request for the radio transmissions from that morning. The Air Force put it off for fourteen years, allegedly, Brown says, “because they didn’t have a way to transfer a reel-to-reel recording to a cassette tape.” When someone finally discovered a cassette recording, duplicated it and sent it to Brown, he found out just how long it took from the first report of the shooting until he called in “shooter down.”
Two minutes. Brown rode to the scene, found the shooter, took aim, and killed him within two minutes. As far as I can tell, as soon as Brown arrived at the hospital, innocent people stopped dying. http://www.breachbangclear.com/warnings-unheeded-lessons-from-a-man-who-killed-an-active-shooter/
I don't have a range that I can find near me that goes out past 25y so it isn't something I practice past that unfortunately. Two range days ago for my department we took it back to 100y and then 147y (max range for that place) but we don't have personal access to that range unfortunately. (Because why would getting officers a way of doing more practice be a good thing *eyeroll*) It was cool to be able to ring a steel silhouette at 147y, standing, in less than 5 shots with a stock glock 17 with glock night sights, for the first time I was able to have a chance to do that. I'd love to walk back to that range with my RMR G19 to show the RMR naysayers at the department how beneficial it is as you add range.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-12-17, 16:19
I wonder if running subsonic would be better, or a round that stays supersonic at 100 yards... I believe when supersonic ammo goes subsonic at distance it make the round less accurate if I am not mistaken... That is why 6.5 has an advantage over 308, it stays supersonic longer I believe. But please correct me if I am mistaken.
I've only shot from 50 yards with a pistol once, and it was very educational. Many of my shots were on the left of the target, so I discovered I had more work to do on my trigger press. Shooting at distance with a pistol obviously puts magnification on your flaws, and so is important even if it's arguably silly from a personal defense training angle. If your group is overall 1 inch left of center at 10yards, it's pretty embarrassing past 50. When I realized where my shots were going, I aimed at the right edge of the target and got em in there. LoL
What's a G19 barrel even capable of at 50 yards, taking my shaky meat hooks out of the equation? I wouldnt think most pistol barrels are capable of better than 12-16 moa .
MisterHelix
10-12-17, 21:31
What's a G19 barrel even capable of at 50 yards, taking my shaky meat hooks out of the equation? I wouldnt think most pistol barrels are capable of better than 12-16 moa .
Some Pistol barrels (in my experience/using Silencerco threaded barrels) are perhaps twice as accurate as your estimate. I have not performed testing using a "Ransom Rest" or the like, but since I can put 10/10 on a half size silhouette (approx 10" x 20") at 100 yards, resting my elbows on my pack, the mechanical accuracy has ~got~ to be better than 12-16 MOA
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G19 w/SiCo bbl/RM02/100yards/ half size silhouette.
At 50 yards, offhand, my steel looks like this:
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So, that's maybe 12-16 MOA, maybe more counting the "flyers", but it's standing, offhand, in no way approaching the mechanical limits of the pistol or the ammo.
(Edit: I'm not an expert, and do not claim to be any sort of pistolero or sharpshooter. I'm just a shmuck with a backyard range and lots of spare time. If I can do it, you can do it.)
Ned Christiansen
10-13-17, 11:03
The first time Jeff connected at 300. That's meters and not yards. This is with a mid-range wadcutter load. He's done it enough times since that it's definitely not blind luck, but it's far from a sure things, too. He ran the course many times last summer with a .357 SIG and yes, it is a tiny bit easier.
http://www.m-guns.com/mediumfoto/picts/ulfls/05122011/19969094851.jpg
Eurodriver
10-13-17, 11:12
Some Pistol barrels (in my experience/using Silencerco threaded barrels) are perhaps twice as accurate as your estimate. I have not performed testing using a "Ransom Rest" or the like, but since I can put 10/10 on a half size silhouette (approx 10" x 20") at 100 yards, resting my elbows on my pack, the mechanical accuracy has ~got~ to be better than 12-16 MOA
47979
G19 w/SiCo bbl/RM02/100yards/ half size silhouette.
At 50 yards, offhand, my steel looks like this:
47980
So, that's maybe 12-16 MOA, maybe more counting the "flyers", but it's standing, offhand, in no way approaching the mechanical limits of the pistol or the ammo.
(Edit: I'm not an expert, and do not claim to be any sort of pistolero or sharpshooter. I'm just a shmuck with a backyard range and lots of spare time. If I can do it, you can do it.)
Here are two 5 round groups I shot at 50 yards.
Gen4 G19
RMR RM06
SilencerCo Octane 9HD2
Stormlake Threaded Barrel
147gr Speer Gold Dot
Shot off a bench.
The black circle is 2" in diameter, so one group is about 6" ES and the other is a hair over 4" translating to 12MOA and 8 MOA respectively.
https://i.imgur.com/S0j0b1m.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ai4lE2P.jpg
Evel Baldgui
10-13-17, 12:23
I can hit a six inch circle at 20 -25 yds with a base 9mm PPQ, but after reading what others here do, geez, have practice even more, damn I suck :-(
axonrecall
10-16-17, 04:57
When teaching a carbine class or running a LEO qualification, I would have personnel shoot at a silhouette at 100 yards with their handguns before shooting carbines. Those who are experienced with firearms would hit the silhouette with little difficulty. Others would require some coaching. Then the question was posed "would a person with a carbine be legally and morally justified in engaging someone armed with a handgun at 100 yards?"
I've frequently shot a Glock 22 with 180g HST at 200 meters and a hit ratio of over 10% is possible. On a good day 30% is achievable. I shoot a bit better with my Kimber Ultra Carry II and 230g HST. The best way to calculate hold over and hold off for rotational drift is to shoot on a dusty day with a spotter calling your shots and suggesting hold off of target.
Why would you train to shoot at 200 yards? You might be caught out in the open armed with only a pistol to defend yourself. You can learn the probably of being hit by someone armed with a handgun at that distance. They don't have to be trained to hit you at that distance, just lucky. Most important, if you have the mental and physical discipline to hit a target at 200 yards with a handgun, making solid hits inside of 50 yards is second nature.
One of my station's firearm instructors has us do long distance drills when he has a lot of gun guys qualifying at once. It's funny to see the faces of some of the people who don't really practice off-duty but had the (mis)fortune of qualing that day when they get to the firing line and look downrange. His reasoning is much like yours, since most of our duties are out in open fields and areas where long distance engagements are likely. In any case, most people are surprised the first time they run the drill how likely you are to score hits as long as you pay attention to the fundamentals.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-16-17, 09:59
I did some more long distance shooting yesterday with a g17.
Shooting a 5''ish diameter steel pole, was making good consistent hits at 25-50 yards! Once I got to 100 yards my hit percentage dropped down to around 10-15%. Crazy, I'm used to hearing 5.56 ring steel really fast, that 9mm took a while before it would ring the steel almost like lobbing in motors or something lol :D Need more practice for sure, I think I was too concentrated with speed on target instead of taking my time.
With my rifle off hand my hit percentage was about 90+%, and time from low ready to on target was very very fast. Really love those 1-4x optics!
I do know the better you get with a pistol, the easier a rifle is, for me anyway.
ETA: was shooting Geco, my favorite 9mm bulk ammo, burns clean!
Eurodriver
10-16-17, 17:15
Pimped this in the Gen5 thread but here’s your homie going 4/10 on a bone stock Gen5 G19 at 150 yards on a C Zone IPSC.
Not exactly slow fire either, although Hits> Misses
147Gr Speer Lawman
https://youtu.be/R-bIqmBFCsA
Get some Euro
GET SOME
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The new S&W M&P 2.0 Compact rings steel at 154 yds and 88yds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4SG1DFWxXk&t=466s
Pimped this in the Gen5 thread but here’s your homie going 4/10 on a bone stock Gen5 G19 at 150 yards on a C Zone IPSC.
Not exactly slow fire either, although Hits> Misses
147Gr Speer Lawman
https://youtu.be/R-bIqmBFCsA
Nice shooting.
Im going to be doing the same video except Markm is going to be banging on a metal bucket "HIT"
PB
The new S&W M&P 2.0 Compact rings steel at 154 yds and 88yds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4SG1DFWxXk&t=466s
Not sure how this is relevant?
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