Poor Man's Assault Weapon(PMAW)

[old grunt]

Just posed this as a response to a thread in the Shotgun Forum, but figured it might make a good NEW THREAD. Here goes: Looking for what I call the Poor Man's Assault Weapon(PMAW):
1: Based on a Remington Auto (11-87 or 1100 ??)
2: Reliable with both Light and Heavy Loads/Low and High Brass
3: GOOD Sights//// Ghost-Ring or other High Visibilty set-up
4: NON-WOOD Stock with sling swivels studs or similiar sling-friendly set-up
5: Dull, "military-type" finish
6: 6 or 8 shot capacity
7: Over-sized or extended charging handle

TALK TO ME GUYS!! The 1100 Tactical according to a recent G&A Personal Defense magazine is close to this BUT I'm open to suggestions. Please DON'T refer me to Wilson(ScatterGun Tech.)or Nighthawk Customs.....CAN'T SPEND THAT MUCH. THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

[Face_N_The_Crowd]

First - why an auto?

Second - 1100 vs 1187 vs Benelli - go to http://www.brianenos.com/forums/ and start reading about the three.

Things to know - 1100 vs 1187 - a used 1100 is probably gonna be cheaper and easier to find. Both have some gas system mantainence issues to watch out for and stay on top of. Parts for Rem's are cheap and common. If you search around you could probably find a M1S90 for about what the final bill is gonna be on a tweeked 1100. A Benelli is like an AK - really simple design and pretty solid all the way around. Lastly - most folks agree that GRS are slower overal and a simple bead is good enough for slugs at 100.

I have an 1100 (tweeked) a M1S90 and a Vang 590 - if it had to work, I'd grab the Mossy. That said, I'll take a carbine over all of them.

[Jay Cunningham]

Just posed this as a response to a thread in the Shotgun Forum, but figured it might make a good NEW THREAD. Here goes: Looking for what I call the Poor Man's Assault Weapon(PMAW):
1: Based on a Remington Auto (11-87 or 1100 ??)
2: Reliable with both Light and Heavy Loads/Low and High Brass
3: GOOD Sights//// Ghost-Ring or other High Visibilty set-up
4: NON-WOOD Stock with sling swivels studs or similiar sling-friendly set-up
5: Dull, "military-type" finish
6: 6 or 8 shot capacity
7: Over-sized or extended charging handle

TALK TO ME GUYS!! The 1100 Tactical according to a recent G&A Personal Defense magazine is close to this BUT I'm open to suggestions. Please DON'T refer me to Wilson(ScatterGun Tech.)or Nighthawk Customs.....CAN'T SPEND THAT MUCH. THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

What is the purpose of this firearm and what is the upper limit on what you are willing to spend?

[forgiven]

What is the purpose of this firearm and what is the upper limit on what you are willing to spend?

+1, awaiting response!

[old grunt]

Home Defense, General Shooting with a tactical type emphasis. Would like to stay under a $1000 complete(meaning sling, and a possible different iron sight, i.e. ghost-ring) THANKS guys!!

[SingleStacker45]

Just got the 1100 tactical and have been very happy. I got the longer barrel with the three chokes included. I broke the shell intercept latch the first week and remington sent me a new one. Since been to two 3 gun matches without issue.

Mule

[toddackerman]

For $1,000 you can do something much more reliable and durable than a gas operated semi atuo:

Rem. 870 Express with 18" IC, rifle sighted barrel
Rem. Youth Stock
Used Surefire forend (yes you can find them on AR15.com)
Vang 2 shot extended Mag tube and high visibility follower
Vang safety
Vickers VTAS 2 point sling with front mounted to the Vang sling slot on their Mag extension tube, and the rear mounted to a GG&G receiver sling mount.

Load it with the Federal Tactical 00 "Flight Control" wad load and you'll have a weapon that will print all 9 pellets in a 10" circle at 20 yds.

[sff70]

My 3 gun shotgun is a Benelli
My social shotgun is a 870

I echo ToddAckerman's response for a social gun, and would ensure use of a good magazine tube spring, and a 4 round side saddle.

As a former 1187 owner, I can tell you that Remmy autoloaders are notorious for not working. When I attend a 3 gun match, I want all my competitors to shoot Remmys!

Hopefully singlestacker's 1100 tactical works for him :D

Gotta keep them clean, use the right ammo, change the o-rings often, run 2 orings, drill the gas ports, keep the mag tube clean with a scotch brite pad, etc. etc. etc. Matt Burkett's shotgun DVD has some good tips for keeping the Remmy's working.

FWIW, I worked a shotgun only stage at the Mutigun nats (142 shooters) and saw about 300 (?) guys come through my stage. I saw several Remmy 11xx shotguns stop working, but no Benellis and no SX2s. No pump guns went down.

Benellis are much more reliable. Just don't try to carry all your ammo for a match on the gun.

The suggestion to search the Enos forums was good one.

[JTR]

Gotta keep them clean, use the right ammo, change the o-rings often, run 2 orings, drill the gas ports, keep the mag tube clean with a scotch brite pad, etc. etc. etc. Matt Burkett's shotgun DVD has some good tips for keeping the Remmy's working.
Sounds like a good plug for the 870 or 590.

[GastonG-NoVa]

My tip to keep a Remmy running.....................Make sure it is a 870!!!!

Autos are finicky, pumps work as long as you do your part.


Nine 870s and counting!!

[sff70]

For self-loading shotguns, Benellis simply have a much better track record than the Remingtons.

Most the of the top 3 gun competitors (Burkett, Voight, Butler, just to name a few) use Benellis for a reason, and it's not for sponsorship money, it's because they work when others have not.

An 870 is an excellent choice for defense. Simple = good. Apart from shooter induced stoppages, they run and run and run.


The typical shooter induced stoppages I see are:
-Short stroking
-Not pushing new shell full past shell stops (creates feedway stoppage)
-Inserting new shotshell backwards (requires disassembly of shotgun)

Additional issues:
-Confusing slug for buck, and vice versa
-Prematurely applying back pressure to foreend (causes misses)
-Low mag capacity
-Difficulty of operating when injured in hands/arms

All those reasons, and more, are why I prefer a carbine.

[Armati]

Well, two cents on this....

Is there a reason not to do a Saiga conversion with 8 or 10 round mags?

With a conventional shotgun you are going to have to make some choices. Does a really long 'hog leg' bother you? IMHO, shotguns should either be really short like breaching shotguns, or really long like tactical turkey guns that can double as rifles with the right loads.

The best capabilities will come with a long bbl like on a turkey gun. Maybe get an improved cylinder or get a Vang cylinder bore job. You can find extened mag tubes for the 870 that will take it to 10 rounds and will fit on a 26" bbl. Kurt Saxon's "Poor Man's James Bond" also has a chapter on building a DIY mag tube.

You can get some nice JPoint type holo sights for around $200. Look at Burris, JPoint, and DrOptic. A 4 minute dot should be all you need.

Check gunbroker.com or the local shops/gun shows for a second hand 870 Police. Most people are not going to have so many miles on a Remington Police to really matter for your purposes.

[Dualspringfields]

I like my 870 alot. Simple tool. Simple to maintain. Will digest anything I feed it. And it didnt cost as much as the 1100. If I remember right it was like $550.00. I have a hunting 1100 that Im looking at getting a tactical barrel for it. No luck as of yet. Anyone know where I could get one??????

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/dualspringfields/DSC00714.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150/dualspringfields/DSC00712.jpg


Grunt get you an 870 Brother.

[glockshooter]

Ok first off any one thinks a Benelli is the ultimate in reliablity has not spent that much time around them. Benellis are great guns when the work. The problem is when the don't work they are the hardist to clear/ figure out. I also like the comment from SSF70 wanting all of his fellow competitors to shoot Remmys. There is not a 100% shotgun out there they ALL a prone to malfunctions, and if your best chances of winning is attributed to someone elses gun, not your skill then I guess that speaks for itself.

My advice for the OP is to look to an FN SLP. They have a few configurations available. They use a gas system so the gun will have less recoil than the Benelli, and FN has the fast operating system available. I believe they make an 18" with all the features you were talking about for under the price you are willing to pay.

For the record I shoot a 1100 tactical, and I will continue to shoot 3gun and tac shotgun matches with it until it finally gives up the ghost. My gun has thousands of rounds through it(Slugs, buck, high brass, low brass) and it shows, but it usually is at or near the top of the score sheets. But ultimately it is the operator not the tool.

Matt

[sff70]

It is the indian, not the arrow, unless the indian is willing and the arrow is broken.

If someone chooses to handicap themself by using a system prone to having more problems or requiring more frequent maintenance, that's not my problem.

I choose to not handicap myself with equipment that doesn't work, therefore I can shoot to the best of my ability w/o worrying about my equipment working. Been there, done that, which is why I'm a former Remmy owner.

Over the years, I've seen a lot more problems with Remmys than Benellis. Now, there are a lot more Remmys in use than Benellis, but Benellis have much less to go wrong with them.

Also, I've owned all three shotguns were are talking about: an 11-87 (over 10 yrs), a SX2 (2 yrs) and a Benelli (3 yrs).

At one point, I owned all three at the same time and shot them back to back to back to decide what I was keeping (the Remmy was definitely going, but it was good to know how it compared).

Sold the Remmy and the SX2, kept the Benelli.

The SX2 (SLP) is a great gun, with little aftermarket support, and pretty much runs out of the box. Had the SLP been available in an 18" configuration when I was considering the Benelli, I might very well have bought one.

Neither the SX2 or the Benelli require drilling gas ports, running double O-rings, changing out the O rings often, or frequent cleaning and lube that the Remmy's require. Nor do they require installation of an EZloader (been there, done that, too).

I have yet to see a SX2 or Benelli shooter tearing their shotgun down between stages at a match to clean the mag tube with a scotchbrite pad and lubing it so it'll be reliable.

Benelli issues are typically: using a hard-mounted side-saddle instead of a velcro mounted one, using a pistol grip and gripping it too hard. Both issues result in stoppages by preventing the recoil operated gun from operating like it was designed to, much like limp-wristing a Glock.

Anyway, my trigger finger can't outrun the action on the Benelli, so the slightly faster cycle time of the SX2 does me no good, and I like that it's lighter than the Remmy. I don't shoot magnums, so the recoil of the Benelli doesn't bug me, either.

Remmy parts are widely available, but Brownells carries a good selection of Benelli parts should you need them.

In closing, if possible, try each of these shotguns in person and see for yourself. You may find you have a distinct preference for one or another.