View Full Version : On DD, rails, and what does one need on an AR
On the DD/layoff thread there is a lot of discussion about their rails (which are excellent), and whether they are worth the cost. Factor into this, are they even needed? Some say a rail for "modularity" and widgets are a must-have, some argue they are not.
Then I saw a pic of cops in LV during the night of the shooting:
https://dallasnews.imgix.net/1506925659-Las-Vegas-Shooting.jpg?w=724&h=500&auto=format&q=60&fit=clip
Discuss.
Needed? Absolutely not.
I find an extended rail worth the cost, but not DD rails.
I'm pretty sure there are a lot of threads about this already. The recent colt thread by eurodriver touches on it as well.
If you are on a budget, spend the money on ammo and a shot timer.
If $300 is not a big deal, and you want one, there is nothing wrong with rails.
Rails are unnecessary for most applications. But some applications, the rifle is useless without them.
DD rails in particular, are very expensive. Oftentimes the juice is not worth the squeeze. There are better rails cheaper these days.
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Rails have a place, sure. I was mainly speaking to the argument specific to DD (disclaimer: I own one, M4v1) and whether or not they are considered essential items, but of course the argument can be extended to any other accoutrement. In the pic the ARs appear to have a basic Magpul accessories and an Aimpoint.
Ghostly pretty much summed up my feelings.
If one wants full length quad rail, the RISII is the one I would recommend, because I know it can take a beating. For me, cost is secondary to durability.
Now that mid-length rifles are a thing, 99% of users, including myself, would be better served with a midlength/fsb rifle with a MOE, or similar. Talking about guns that are not used in DMR/precision roles.
Going forward, most of my guns will be MLOK, or non-floating. Or both. The RISII that is on my favorite carbine currently is going to carry over to a SPR-ish setup I have planned, when I retire this carbine.
I like the RIS a lot, and feel it is well worth its price, but only if there is a requirement that it meets.
Beat Trash
10-12-17, 08:59
On the DD/layoff thread there is a lot of discussion about their rails (which are excellent), and whether they are worth the cost. Factor into this, are they even needed? Some say a rail for "modularity" and widgets are a must-have, some argue they are not.
Then I saw a pic of cops in LV during the night of the shooting:
https://dallasnews.imgix.net/1506925659-Las-Vegas-Shooting.jpg?w=724&h=500&auto=format&q=60&fit=clip
Discuss.
It is important to distinguish the difference between a want and a need. The answer to that question depends on the intended usage of the gun.
The linked picture of the officer carrying a Patrol Rifle shows a gun designed around the needs of a LEO Patrol Rifle. A Colt 6920 with a quality white light and a sling would work, as is. Adding a quality RDS like an Aimpoint PRO really can help. By "quality" product, I do not mean something that you borrowed off of your kid's airsoft rifle.
You don't need a mid length gas system to be effective. Most Patrol Rifles out there in the field are carbine length gas systems. Is it nice to have? I think so. But it's not needed.
DD makes some outstanding FF rails. They are expensive, but the quality is there. Do you need it? Depends on what you're doing and what gear you need to attach. If you have a legitimate need for night vision and need an IR laser on your gun, then I would say that the FF rails are a need. As a person looking for a HD gun or a LEO setting up a Patrol Rifle, no, you don't need it.
With that said, I have the option of carrying a personally owned, departmentally approved rifle at work. I carry a DD V7lw. It has a mid length gas system, a 15" M-Lok ff rail, a Surefire scout and an Aimpoint T-2. Do I need this setup over what is shown in the photo linked from Las Vegas? Of course not. I carry it because I want the small advantages this setup brings to the table. My job is not that of a Uniform Patrol Officer, or a Beat Officer, and the small advantages I gain from my choice of Patrol Rifle are enough for me to justify carrying a personally owned gun, at my own expense.
Again, one must distinguish the difference between a want and a need. With that said, it's ok to want something more than a bare basic setup. So long as you don't try to fool yourself into believing that you need the modularity and widgets. Or that the additional modularity or widgets will compensate for a lack of skill or training.
It is important to distinguish the difference between a want and a need. The answer to that question depends on the intended usage of the gun.
The linked picture of the officer carrying a Patrol Rifle shows a gun designed around the needs of a LEO Patrol Rifle. A Colt 6920 with a quality white light and a sling would work, as is. Adding a quality RDS like an Aimpoint PRO really can help. By "quality" product, I do not mean something that you borrowed off of your kid's airsoft rifle.
You don't need a mid length gas system to be effective. Most Patrol Rifles out there in the field are carbine length gas systems. Is it nice to have? I think so. But it's not needed.
DD makes some outstanding FF rails. They are expensive, but the quality is there. Do you need it? Depends on what you're doing and what gear you need to attach. If you have a legitimate need for night vision and need an IR laser on your gun, then I would say that the FF rails are a need. As a person looking for a HD gun or a LEO setting up a Patrol Rifle, no, you don't need it.
With that said, I have the option of carrying a personally owned, departmentally approved rifle at work. I carry a DD V7lw. It has a mid length gas system, a 15" M-Lok ff rail, a Surefire scout and an Aimpoint T-2. Do I need this setup over what is shown in the photo linked from Las Vegas? Of course not. I carry it because I want the small advantages this setup brings to the table. My job is not that of a Uniform Patrol Officer, or a Beat Officer, and the small advantages I gain from my choice of Patrol Rifle are enough for me to justify carrying a personally owned gun, at my own expense.
Again, one must distinguish the difference between a want and a need. With that said, it's ok to want something more than a bare basic setup. So long as you don't try to fool yourself into believing that you need the modularity and widgets. Or that the additional modularity or widgets will compensate for a lack of skill or training.
Excellent. I wish M4C had a 'like' button. My first M4 had the plastic handguards. The next, the KAC. Good enough for my mission; unlike the platoon designated marksman with the SAMR, who needed the bipod.
My home set-up, a 6920, has a MI drop-in KMR; my DDM4 has a light and VFG; my precision AR, set up entirely differently. All about the mission and the needs.
Shooterman017
10-12-17, 10:39
It is important to distinguish the difference between a want and a need. The answer to that question depends on the intended usage of the gun.
The linked picture of the officer carrying a Patrol Rifle shows a gun designed around the needs of a LEO Patrol Rifle. A Colt 6920 with a quality white light and a sling would work, as is. Adding a quality RDS like an Aimpoint PRO really can help. By "quality" product, I do not mean something that you borrowed off of your kid's airsoft rifle.
You don't need a mid length gas system to be effective. Most Patrol Rifles out there in the field are carbine length gas systems. Is it nice to have? I think so. But it's not needed.
DD makes some outstanding FF rails. They are expensive, but the quality is there. Do you need it? Depends on what you're doing and what gear you need to attach. If you have a legitimate need for night vision and need an IR laser on your gun, then I would say that the FF rails are a need. As a person looking for a HD gun or a LEO setting up a Patrol Rifle, no, you don't need it.
With that said, I have the option of carrying a personally owned, departmentally approved rifle at work. I carry a DD V7lw. It has a mid length gas system, a 15" M-Lok ff rail, a Surefire scout and an Aimpoint T-2. Do I need this setup over what is shown in the photo linked from Las Vegas? Of course not. I carry it because I want the small advantages this setup brings to the table. My job is not that of a Uniform Patrol Officer, or a Beat Officer, and the small advantages I gain from my choice of Patrol Rifle are enough for me to justify carrying a personally owned gun, at my own expense.
Again, one must distinguish the difference between a want and a need. With that said, it's ok to want something more than a bare basic setup. So long as you don't try to fool yourself into believing that you need the modularity and widgets. Or that the additional modularity or widgets will compensate for a lack of skill or training.
This is a great summation of my thoughts as well.
I purchased a Knight's URX 3.1 right before Geissele handguards took off in popularity, and considered waiting to see more customer/hands-on input on the G rails before going with the URX. I didn't need a 15" handguard on a 16" carbine (like it was replacing), didn't need 1913 rail on all sides, and found myself wanting a more slim handguard (a la the URX 3.1). There were abbreviated 1913 rail sections, which suited my needs because there was no direct attachment method like Keymod yet. I needed 1913 rail to mount a light and bipod onto, just less of it. But, like ghostly said above:
There are better rails cheaper these days.
In my case...the ALG EMR was not available when I was trying to figure out what suits my needs and wants. Is it much different than the URX 3.1? Yes. Could I attain the same end result with that handguard as the URX? Essentially, yes. That URX works fine and there is zero reason for me to change what works...still mount a light and bipod, and still checks the box for being a little more slim than a tubular free float rail.
By "quality" product, I do not mean something that you borrowed off of your kid's airsoft rifle.
There are absolutely better options out there now for what we both need and want in a handguard, and this statement applies here as well. The ALG EMR V2 (which has an integral 1913 rail section for a front sight to mount) would suit my needs much better now than the URX. It's suitably 'thin' for my preference, and doesn't have a ton of rail on it I will never use, and even though a much lower price than the URX, it's still a quality product. It would do the same job if not better, for what my use of that carbine is.
Coal Dragger
10-12-17, 11:08
Personally I like rails on AR's and wouldn't leave a non free floated AR in that state. I live in a very rural area with wide open spaces, so I appreciate the extra precision that a free floating barrel affords the AR. For the same reason I really like Geissele 2 stage trigger. For my most likely uses free floating the barrel and putting a good trigger on the rifle are the best upgrades I can make. That is considering that optics are a given. If pressed to be able to have only 2 of those accessories it would be optics, and a Geissele 2 stage trigger. As soon as funds allowed though, a free floating rail would go on.
As for what rails to use, well I have a RIS II with the front sight cutout for a carbine length gas system. It's on a factory built Colt M4A1. No doubt the rail is very well made, tough, and versatile with all the 1913 real estate for those who need it. It is also heavy, bulky, and because it is made to accommodate the FSP and bayonet lug it allows your bare fingers to contact the bayonet lug where there is a cutout for it on the bottom. Not a big deal until the barrel gets hot, then it can be really unpleasant. As a piece of firearms history it's pretty cool and being on a limited production Colt I'll never change it out, but it's not an ideal Rail that everyone seems to think they are.
My other AR worth mentioning in a DDM4 V11 Pro with the 15" Slim rail in Keymod. I like this one quite a bit for the simple fact that it is slim, easy to attach accessories to with Keymod adapters where desired, and at 15" long allows plenty of area to grasp the fore end, additionally the added length gives more sight radius to my BUIS.
I suspect the best rails on the market right now are the Geissele series and the KAC offerings, just due to how rigid both are in their mounting to the upper.
grizzlyblake
10-12-17, 13:02
I see a lot of DD guns set up with the DD fixed sights on the rails. How much of a concern is it to have the barrel free floated from a fixed iron sight, when compared to a FSP on the barrel?
It would seem the increased sight radius would add an advantage over a standard FSB, but I don't know if that's offset by the railed sight not being attached to the barrel.
Coal Dragger
10-12-17, 13:17
I haven't found it to be an issue as long as the sights will zero. So the rail needs to be mounted up square with the receiver. I suppose there could be issues with the rail flexing under outside pressure in relation to barrel position, but it takes a fair bit of pressure to accomplish. I have seen video of the Geissele rails being very resistant to flexion issues.
The most durable set up is to have the front sight mounted to the barrel via pins. Makes rail installation tricky tough, and not nearly as many options that don't stop at the front sight. The RIS II and Centurion are the only ones that come to mind.
WickedWillis
10-12-17, 13:29
DD makes excellent, very strong rails. BUT none of it is truly needed on a go to carbine. My understanding with rails, is quality is only really important when it comes to free floating, mounting sights, and mounting lasers or IR illuminators because you need that repeat ability to duplicate and keep a proper zero.
I do get overly hyped with looks though, and I love the look of the DD RIS rails, and the Geissele rails which I've heard are incredibly strong and well made. YMMV.
albatros43
10-12-17, 13:43
On the DD/layoff thread there is a lot of discussion about their rails (which are excellent), and whether they are worth the cost. Factor into this, are they even needed? Some say a rail for "modularity" and widgets are a must-have, some argue they are not.
Then I saw a pic of cops in LV during the night of the shooting:
https://dallasnews.imgix.net/1506925659-Las-Vegas-Shooting.jpg?w=724&h=500&auto=format&q=60&fit=clip
Discuss.
I'd say a bulk of people might put a AFG/VFG on a rail, and maybe a light but if you have a FSP you certainly don't "need" a rail. I personally think a plastic hand-guard makes a gun look cheap, but functionally it's not a requirement for me.
I wouldn't base my perception of needs on what some city cop has in his patrol car. I'd bet a case of 5.56 neither one of those rifles was very sighted in.
Jerry rigging a light onta plastic handguard is not as good as a proper rail and mount. Even if Magpul made all the plastic stuff.
Coal Dragger
10-12-17, 16:10
I wouldn't base my perception of needs on what some city cop has in his patrol car. I'd bet a case of 5.56 neither one of those rifles was very sighted in.
Jerry rigging a light onta plastic handguard is not as good as a proper rail and mount. Even if Magpul made all the plastic stuff.
Hell I'd bet a case of 5.56 that the average city cop couldn't make "A" zone hits at 100 yards from a field/practical position if his patrol rifle was properly sighted in.
Almost zero chance that their carbine will actually be sighted in. More likely they stuck a bore sighter on moved the dot to coincide and called it good.
Hell I'd bet a case of 5.56 that the average city cop couldn't make "A" zone hits at 100 yards from a field/practical position if his patrol rifle was properly sighted in.
Almost zero chance that their carbine will actually be sighted in. More likely they stuck a bore sighter on moved the dot to coincide and called it good.
I literally saw a patrol rifle without a rear sight a few years ago. It belonged to the chief of a local department. They had just done a raid against an armed suspect. I offered to give him a DD rear.
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I had this setup for years on my go-to rifle. It is suboptimal in theory, because of the possibility of the rail rotating slightly or flexing under load. However, It worked well for me out to 300m. I used it without any optics, irons only, until about 2 years ago, when I mounted a 2-7x and offsets irons. Within the ranges that iron sights don't suck, a good rail with a front sight on it isn't a problem in my experience. Has to be a really solid one, though. Same gun has offset irons on it today that have been holding zero, also.
Hell I'd bet a case of 5.56 that the average city cop couldn't make "A" zone hits at 100 yards from a field/practical position if his patrol rifle was properly sighted in.
Almost zero chance that their carbine will actually be sighted in. More likely they stuck a bore sighter on moved the dot to coincide and called it good.
From a legal and risk management perspective, how can they allow this? When I was a paramedic, corpsman, tac medic on a SWAT team, I was required by policy to be proficient on everything I had to use. How can a cop be issued something without having been 'checked off' with regard to proficiency and functionality?
Coal Dragger
10-13-17, 09:23
From a legal and risk management perspective, how can they allow this? When I was a paramedic, corpsman, tac medic on a SWAT team, I was required by policy to be proficient on everything I had to use. How can a cop be issued something without having been 'checked off' with regard to proficiency and functionality?
They are "checked off", problem is the standards are low.
I completely agree with the needs/wants and mission driving the choice. For me, heat is a huge factor.
Vegasshooter
10-13-17, 12:33
I wouldn't base my perception of needs on what some city cop has in his patrol car. I'd bet a case of 5.56 neither one of those rifles was very sighted in.
Jerry rigging a light onta plastic handguard is not as good as a proper rail and mount. Even if Magpul made all the plastic stuff.
I Sir will 100% take your ammo from you. I can tell you for 100% fact that the rifle school LVMPD goes through is 48 hours long, they shoot and QUALIFY out to 200 yds. Several "ex military " have gone through and had a very tough time with the class. The Officers qualify 4x a year, and have to shoot a 90% or better. Don't pass 2x, and the rifle is gone until they take a 10 hour refresher and re-qual.
Careful making assumptions about some "City Cop" and his equipment and training. LVMPD isn't Mayberry.
Vegasshooter
10-13-17, 12:38
Hell I'd bet a case of 5.56 that the average city cop couldn't make "A" zone hits at 100 yards from a field/practical position if his patrol rifle was properly sighted in.
Almost zero chance that their carbine will actually be sighted in. More likely they stuck a bore sighter on moved the dot to coincide and called it good.
You're talking absolutely, completely out your ass!! You have no idea how their training is, and that is a totally incorrect statement. If you have one ounce of evidence about that PLEASE SHARE. Otherwise keep quiet and go color.
The training standards for LVMPD, although not perfect, are still VERY high.
Averageman
10-13-17, 12:54
So back to rails,....
I've got a nice mix of AR's, my only real reason for a rail is to mount a very few things on them and even then, it's mostly being used for a quality light.
When I roll in the cash and incentive to purchase NV that might change, but now, that is the main reason I "need" a rail.
Oddly enough I own some rather decent AR's and my most used/most fun is mutt that was bought used in the bad old days.
It's been modified a bit to my liking, but it is certainly nothing special. A 14.5 BCM upper with a M.I. rail over a Spikes lower with a Geissele trigger.
It's got a mix of furniture that rolls with it in a sort of ever evolving way. but that damned thing has only STB once and that was with some cheap steel cased ammo.
I think we waaay overthink this stuff in a First World, spoiled sort of way.
You're talking absolutely, completely out your ass!! You have no idea how their training is, and that is a totally incorrect statement. If you have one ounce of evidence about that PLEASE SHARE. Otherwise keep quiet and go color.
The training standards for LVMPD, although not perfect, are still VERY high.
Evidently, not all organizations are as professional as yours. See my above post. That's the problem with stereotyping, people get a bad impression and carry it over as a blanket statement.
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Coal Dragger
10-13-17, 18:52
You're talking absolutely, completely out your ass!! You have no idea how their training is, and that is a totally incorrect statement. If you have one ounce of evidence about that PLEASE SHARE. Otherwise keep quiet and go color.
The training standards for LVMPD, although not perfect, are still VERY high.
I do like me some crayons....
I was speaking mostly about average police officers around the country not specifically about LVMPD. My experiences shooting with or around the average US LEO have left me with the distinct impression that most of them probably shouldn't be carrying a sidearm due to lack of proficiency.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-13-17, 19:21
I see a lot of DD guns set up with the DD fixed sights on the rails. How much of a concern is it to have the barrel free floated from a fixed iron sight, when compared to a FSP on the barrel?
It would seem the increased sight radius would add an advantage over a standard FSB, but I don't know if that's offset by the railed sight not being attached to the barrel.
In my experience, I never noticed much of a difference in iron sight radius on rifles, I do notice it with pistols though.
Some low end free float rails end up getting loose from drops and stuff and will lose zero on the front sight. A good rail wont have this problem.
If all you need is a free float and a light, I see no reason to spend a ton of money. Just make sure it's tight and has a good method for attaching to the upper. A FF rail isn't needed, but it is nice to have!
For the super operators that operate tactically more than navy seals, they need a rail that doesn't move when it has IR lasers, flashlight, ironsight, night vision, forgrip, bipod, 45 degree irons to in case their back up iron sights go down, a back up red dot for their primary optic, a camera mount, and a molon labe dust cover, etc ;)
Lol, the most important aspects to me are, Light weight and Holds zero/good mounting method. I have a really heavy free float rail on my SPR and I hate shooting it off hand.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-13-17, 19:32
I do like me some crayons....
Hell I'd bet a case of 5.56 that the average city cop couldn't make "A" zone hits at 100 yards from a field/practical position if his patrol rifle was properly sighted in.
Almost zero chance that their carbine will actually be sighted in. More likely they stuck a bore sighter on moved the dot to coincide and called it good.
I was speaking mostly about average police officers around the country not specifically about LVMPD. My experiences shooting with or around the average US LEO have left me with the distinct impression that most of them probably shouldn't be carrying a sidearm due to lack of proficiency.
I know I am new, but with all due respect... I find your post very disrespectful.
You are mistaken on the numbers here, but you're not completely wrong, just mostly wrong....
Most cops are gun guys/girls, most of them shoot well, and have to shoot quals that most internet keyboard warriors could not pass. For every 20 Officers that pass those quals with proficiency, there is one straggler that needs a ton of help to pass quals, who is generally very bad with guns. Just because that cop isn't a good shooter doesn't mean they aren't more proficient at other parts of the job. 99.99% of police daily duty has nothing to do with firearm proficiency. However, to even get the Badge, they need to pass some pretty stressful firearms quals ( at least in my state of residency ).
But please spare me the ''cops cant shoot'' bit. In my state of residence all LE are required high standards of marksmanship and weapons familiarity... And like I said, I bet most keyboard commandos could not pass various LE firearms quals.
If you don't know the Firearm qualification standards that various LE agencies require, then please do not make such bold statements about that subject.
I feel personally qualified to comment on this subject, but I really don't want to say much more about it for various reasons.
It takes a 'gun guy' to be interested enough to shoot competition outside of work when you're LE. I've been shooting competitively for over ten years and I can count on one hand the number really switched on LE shooters I've shot with. Two were SWAT instructors with their own training schools. Those two were truly talented and passionate about mastering their trade and sport. The majority of the rest have been consistently mediocre to poor shooters, and not any better at handling/negotiating the match and training scenarios presented.
As a person whose been an RSO and assisted trainers training LE, they are some of the most untrainable people I've encountered. Mostly due to their perception of proficiency based on the standards they've qualified to.
Good for LVMP, the world needs more shooters.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-13-17, 20:51
A rail is not necessary but it makes the rifle more effective. If one can afford a rail, I would recommend buying one.
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5.56 Bonded SP
10-13-17, 21:08
It takes a 'gun guy' to be interested enough to shoot competition outside of work when you're LE. I've been shooting competitively for over ten years and I can count on one hand the number really switched on LE shooters I've shot with. Two were SWAT instructors with their own training schools. Those two were truly talented and passionate about mastering their trade and sport. The majority of the rest have been consistently mediocre to poor shooters, and not any better at handling/negotiating the match and training scenarios presented.
As a person whose been an RSO and assisted trainers training LE, they are some of the most untrainable people I've encountered. Mostly due to their perception of proficiency based on the standards they've qualified to.
Good for LVMP, the world needs more shooters.
Ok, lets dissect this a bit further here just for conversation and perceptual sake.
Right now we are on a technical forum, and I assume most of us here know a ridiculous bit of knowledge about AR's and other guns. We probably know many things that many Military grunts, and Police grunts do not know in regards to AR's, ammo, etc. That doesn't mean we are better shooters though, but maybe some of us are... anyway...
Now lets think about the broader spectrum of gun forums, and gun owners in general. I am willing to bet the majority of people that constantly post on forums , or own guns, probably have poor form, and are generally not proficient shooters in regards to combat or competition shooting techniques. Most people who post on forums probably have never had time with actual instructors. (think arfcom gd).
Now what if I took Coal draggers comments and replaced the word ''cops'' with something else like '' Most people on this forum ''...
For example ...
I do like me some crayons....
Hell I'd bet a case of 5.56 that most people on this forum couldn't make "A" zone hits at 100 yards from a field/practical position if his patrol rifle was properly sighted in.
Almost zero chance that their carbine will actually be sighted in. More likely most people on this forum just stuck a bore sighter on moved the dot to coincide and called it good.
I was speaking about most people on this forum not specifically about LVMPD. My experiences shooting with most people on this forum have left me with the distinct impression that most of them probably shouldn't be carrying a sidearm due to lack of proficiency.
Now that altered quote might not have made the gears turn or the lightbulb click for some. What I am trying to get at here, is that having an elitist attitude where you consider yourself superior than the majority of a particular group ( in this case cops ), is a ridiculous way to think. Not the entire Army is full of super operators, they have cooks and such too, not every troop is trained to make hits with a .50 at 1000 yards...... Not all cops are part of the Swat team... And if you guys think it is easy to get on Swat, you are simply wrong.
I doubt that everyone here is a Teir1 navy seal or competition operator. I am not saying all cops are Teir1 operators, or that they are even good shooters, but to say the majority of cops don't know how to zero optics and such is just ridiculous.
I think it is important to be humble... One more time
I think it is important to be humble.
I'm not trying to come off on the wrong foot being a new guy here, I am sure many of you are better shooters than a lot of cops, and probably better shooters than me. But I have a hard time saying nothing when I read some of the stuff I have about LE in this thread. I think it is naive, and dangerous to be so full of one's self to consider one self superior to an entire demographic, even if it is only in regards to weapons handling. I am willing to bet that the ones in this thread disrespecting LE aren't even aware that most police use basic defensive stances and tactics during every traffic stop so that they can properly address potentially life threatening situations.
Not trying to rub anyone the wrong way here. I've said all I want to say.
Ok, lets dissect this a bit further here just for conversation and perceptual sake.
Right now we are on a technical forum, and I assume most of us here know a ridiculous bit of knowledge about AR's and other guns. We probably know many things that many Military grunts, and Police grunts do not know in regards to AR's, ammo, etc. That doesn't mean we are better shooters though, but maybe some of us are... anyway...
Now lets think about the broader spectrum of gun forums, and gun owners in general. I am willing to bet the majority of people that constantly post on forums , or own guns, probably have poor form, and are generally not proficient shooters in regards to combat or competition shooting techniques. Most people who post on forums probably have never had time with actual instructors. (think arfcom gd).
Now what if I took Coal draggers comments and replaced the word ''cops'' with something else like '' Most people on this forum ''...
For example ...
Now that altered quote might not have made the gears turn or the lightbulb click for some. What I am trying to get at here, is that having an elitist attitude where you consider yourself superior than the majority of a particular group ( in this case cops ), is a ridiculous way to think. Not the entire Army is full of super operators, they have cooks and such too, not every troop is trained to make hits with a .50 at 1000 yards...... Not all cops are part of the Swat team... And if you guys think it is easy to get on Swat, you are simply wrong.
I doubt that everyone here is a Teir1 navy seal or competition operator. I am not saying all cops are Teir1 operators, or that they are even good shooters, but to say the majority of cops don't know how to zero optics and such is just ridiculous.
I think it is important to be humble... One more time
I think it is important to be humble.
I'm not trying to come off on the wrong foot being a new guy here, I am sure many of you are better shooters than a lot of cops, and probably better shooters than me. But I have a hard time saying nothing when I read some of the stuff I have about LE in this thread. I think it is naive, and dangerous to be so full of one's self to consider one self superior to an entire demographic, even if it is only in regards to weapons handling. I am willing to bet that the ones in this thread disrespecting LE aren't even aware that most police use basic defensive stances and tactics during every traffic stop so that they can properly address potentially life threatening situations.
Not trying to rub anyone the wrong way here. I've said all I want to say.
I agree that we shouldn't paint in broad brushes. Not all cops are incompetent. But we also can't say that all cops are competent, with that same broad brush. Nor are all "gun guys". I saw a guy walk down range over the weekend while his buddy was shooting in the next lane. I see guys with cheap, non-functional gear all the time. I've seen long-time competitive shooters simply fail to progress as shooters. I've also seen them fail to embrace basic tactics outside of competition.
The fact of the matter is that most cops aren't gun fighters and they don't need to be. They are peace-keepers. Shooting is a very very small, unlikely aspect of their job. Many get the impression cops aren't shooters from first-hand experience we shouldn't doubt, but none of us know "most" cops. We all know the viral photos of cops with backwards magazines in their rifles. We all know the examples of local cops doing stupid stuff.
As a competitive shooter, I've seen cops and military members/vets show up to matches. Some do great, some do terrible. Just like regular guys.
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5.56 Bonded SP
10-13-17, 21:34
I agree that we shouldn't paint in broad brushes. Not all cops are incompetent. But we also can't say that all cops are competent, with that same broad brush. Nor are all "gun guys". I saw a guy walk down range over the weekend while his buddy was shooting in the next lane. I see guys with cheap, non-functional gear all the time. I've seen long-time competitive shooters simply fail to progress as shooters. I've also seen them fail to embrace basic tactics outside of competition.
The fact of the matter is that most cops aren't gun fighters and they don't need to be. They are peace-keepers. Shooting is a very very small, unlikely aspect of their job. Many get the impression cops aren't shooters from first-hand experience we shouldn't doubt, but none of us know "most" cops. We all know the viral photos of cops with backwards magazines in their rifles. We all know the examples of local cops doing stupid stuff.
As a competitive shooter, I've seen cops and military members/vets show up to matches. Some do great, some do terrible. Just like regular guys.
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I agree, and in the end we are all just people regardless of the uniforms we may or may not wear.
There have been some great points made in this thread, and my apologies for going so off topic.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-13-17, 21:42
It is important to distinguish the difference between a want and a need. The answer to that question depends on the intended usage of the gun.
The linked picture of the officer carrying a Patrol Rifle shows a gun designed around the needs of a LEO Patrol Rifle. A Colt 6920 with a quality white light and a sling would work, as is. Adding a quality RDS like an Aimpoint PRO really can help. By "quality" product, I do not mean something that you borrowed off of your kid's airsoft rifle.
You don't need a mid length gas system to be effective. Most Patrol Rifles out there in the field are carbine length gas systems. Is it nice to have? I think so. But it's not needed.
Pretty much this.
Thankfully we live in the USA and can trick out our guns how we see fit. I liked the thread about the maturation of AR owner 6920 is it the endgame thread. I believe that thread is relevant here in this discussion.
...In my state of residence all LE are required high standards of marksmanship and weapons familiarity...
What state would that be?
5.56 Bonded SP
10-13-17, 22:19
What state would that be?
I'd prefer not to disclose that at this time, and I don't feel like that detail is necessarily important. I'll just say that we have some outstanding instructors here who really know their stuff, and do their best to train cadets as well as possible. Many instructors here make sure to get some 1 on 1 time with cadets that may be struggling during training as well. I have no doubt that many other states have equally as competent instructors. But like Ghostly said, I don't want to paint to broad of a brush.
I'd prefer not to disclose that at this time, and I don't feel like that detail is necessarily important. I'll just say that we have some outstanding instructors here who really know their stuff, and do their best to train cadets as well as possible. Many instructors here make sure to get some 1 on 1 time with cadets that may be struggling during training as well. I have no doubt that many other states have equally as competent instructors. But like Ghostly said, I don't want to paint to broad of a brush.
The skills of the instructors isn’t relevant to this particular discussion. You said:
“...all LE are required high standards of marksmanship...”
I know of no state that has qualification requirements that many here would consider “high.” As to how my question is relevant, since qualification standards are a matter of public record knowing the state you’re speaking of would allow me to know what these high standards of which you speak are.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-13-17, 22:54
With all due respect.
I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I've contributed to derailing this thread enough. Not interested in debating whether certain quals should be considered ''high'' standards.
BLUF: Pertaining to the title of this thread, I feel the following describes proper mindset of "upgrades": 1-experience, 2- training, 3- equipment, in that order. Upgraded equipment is only an upgrade if it enhances your ability to perform.
Long version follows:
Example: I spend quite a bit of time driving iron sighted and RDS equipped rifles and carbines on to targets. Enough time that I declined ACOGs the first time I was issued one because even though I'd potentially be shooting past 1/4 mile, I didn't have experience with ACOGs and my performance would have suffered. So the time and energy was better spent using known gear and getting more range time. (I actually shot worse the first time I trained with an ACOG when coming off of a RDS. Price of equipment did not correlate to better shooting.)
Parallel to the above example: when I shoot a carbine LGS with standard length handguard, I tend to place my hand a tad forward of the handguard, and will eventually burn it even while wearing gloves. Going to longer rails eliminated that, allowing my to maintain shooting positions without having to shift my hand or use a VFG. So I would call that an upgrade, because it enhances my ability to perform in a positive matter, while improving the weapons mechanical repeatability. However, when the Magpul SL equipment came out, I received the same improvement in handling as free floating my non SPR carbine, because the added 2" of handguard covered where my hand was ending up, making the FF rail much less cost effective.
More so, the quality of my training had a bigger affect than my equipment, free floated or not. Squeezing that slightly more repeatable accuracy or slightly more comfortable handling takes a backseat to general handling, malfunction clearing, reloading, and instruction.
But ultimately, practice, experience, and live range time trumps instruction and equipment alone. I'd been told what I needed to understand to make hits past 1/4 mile with rack grade equipment. Going out and doing it again and again actually taught me how to do it. I know my holds, adjustments, affects of different positions on my reloads, etc, due to experience, and that upgrades my ability to make hits more than a block of instruction or a free float rail. Beyond that, buy upgrade your equipment as you see fit, as you would like to, or simply because you want to. Like many others, I put a SSA-E in my SPR because it improved my shooting. Just my long winded $.02cents.
This thread is sinking like the Lusitania. Let's see if we can bail it out.
Shooterman017
10-14-17, 10:51
This thread is sinking like the Lusitania. Let's see if we can bail it out.
So, in such interest...
A rail is not necessary but it makes the rifle more effective. If one can afford a rail, I would recommend buying one.
DD makes some outstanding FF rails. They are expensive, but the quality is there. Do you need it? Depends on what you're doing and what gear you need to attach.
Again, one must distinguish the difference between a want and a need. With that said, it's ok to want something more than a bare basic setup. So long as you don't try to fool yourself into believing that you need the modularity and widgets.
So with rails like the Bravo Company KMR and Hodge Defense offerings, where will handguard technology end up?? (Let's call it handguard 'tech'). Are those advancements 'nececssary'?? Is AlLi or an Aluminum and Magnesium blend a "widget" in terms of handguard tech? Will they become the new norm, sort of how extended length and slick/direct attachment handguard options are??
Understand that I am not knocking it, at all. My bedside gun has a KMR 7, and that was the most money I have ever paid for a carbine-length handguard. The KMR 10 and 7 are freakishly light, and I dig it. I'm at the point where I want a sample of everything so I can draw my own conclusions, because it's cool, and all this stuff is pretty crazy when you consider that it's just a handguard.
What the hell are you gay rights advocates talking about? No rail? What would you use for a hand guard instead? The plastic thingies that come with a bone stock AR????
What the hell are you gay rights advocates talking about? No rail? What would you use for a hand guard instead? The plastic thingies that come with a bone stock AR????
So judgey, bro. :sarcastic::sarcastic:
I seriously can't figure out this thread. It's like a time warp back to when KAC RAS was a fancy modification to an AR.
Ultimately, I think it's a giant argument for actual range time versus shopping for gun bling.
I seriously can't figure out this thread. It's like a time warp back to when KAC RAS was a fancy modification to an AR.
It's a hipster thing. The KISS carbine in en vogue for 2017.
It's a hipster thing. The KISS carbine in en vogue for 2017.
It's like loading M193 for defense because Mk262 is a want... not a need. :rolleyes:
Shooterman017
10-14-17, 14:05
It's like loading M193 for defense because Mk262 is a want... not a need. :rolleyes:
:lol:
That's one way to put it.
So, in such interest...
So with rails like the Bravo Company KMR and Hodge Defense offerings, where will handguard technology end up?? (Let's call it handguard 'tech'). Are those advancements 'nececssary'?? Is AlLi or an Aluminum and Magnesium blend a "widget" in terms of handguard tech? Will they become the new norm, sort of how extended length and slick/direct attachment handguard options are??
.
Going forward, I would be happy with 7000 series Al handguards. I haven't felt the urge to go exotic with lithium or magnesium, or thermite or whatever, but I do wish 6000 series wasn't so popular.
What I would like to see in FF handguards:
1) 7000 series, with a design that does not place light weight above durability. It should be lighter than a full length cheese grater, but does not need to be as light as a KMR to make me happy.
2) MLok, with 7 MLock surfaces full length, and a full length Pic on top.
3) have an anti-rotation setup worthy of putting a full time front sight on it. Such as the pin used in a Wedgelock. For the same reason it should be very stiff.
4) be thinner than a cheese grater, but thick enough to fit any old lopro gas block, and still mount shit. Some where in the neighborhood of 1.75 in outside width. A bit of diameter helps with stiffness and not burning my hands. For reference, the DD RIS II is about 2 1/4 wide. There are MLok rails you can fit a can inside smaller than that on the market.
5) gas tube should go through the nut or the handguard should mount to the nut in a way that prevents the nut from Murphy'ing its way off. So a solid anti rotation method (near zero play, see #3), plus clamping to the nut would be acceptable. I don't mind clocking a barrel nut, because I know it can't loosen without a catastrophic event.
6) WTF happened to heat shields? Although my RIS doesn't seem to have a problem, I have used rails that do.
There is no rail on the market today that I am aware of that meets all of these requrements, but a few that come close. A midlength FSB and MOE SL could do anything that a rail that meets these requirements could do.
Going forward, I would be happy with 7000 series Al handguards. I haven't felt the urge to go exotic with lithium or magnesium, or thermite or whatever, but I do wish 6000 series wasn't so popular.
What I would like to see in FF handguards:
1) 7000 series, with a design that does not place light weight above durability. It should be lighter than a full length cheese grater, but does not need to be as light as a KMR to make me happy.
2) MLok, with 7 MLock surfaces full length, and a full length Pic on top.
3) have an anti-rotation setup worthy of putting a full time front sight on it. Such as the pin used in a Wedgelock. For the same reason it should be very stiff.
4) be thinner than a cheese grater, but thick enough to fit any old lopro gas block, and still mount shit. Some where in the neighborhood of 1.75 in outside width. A bit of diameter helps with stiffness and not burning my hands. For reference, the DD RIS II is about 2 1/4 wide. There are MLok rails you can fit a can inside smaller than that on the market.
5) gas tube should go through the nut or the handguard should mount to the nut in a way that prevents the nut from Murphy'ing its way off. So a solid anti rotation method (near zero play, see #3), plus clamping to the nut would be acceptable. I don't mind clocking a barrel nut, because I know it can't loosen without a catastrophic event.
6) WTF happened to heat shields? Although my RIS doesn't seem to have a problem, I have used rails that do.
There is no rail on the market today that I am aware of that meets all of these requrements, but a few that come close. A midlength FSB and MOE SL could do anything that a rail that meets these requirements could do.
What about 7000 series would lend itself to better for. Rail system than 6000? Where is 6000 falling short?
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5.56 Bonded SP
10-15-17, 04:25
What the hell are you gay rights advocates talking about? No rail? What would you use for a hand guard instead? The plastic thingies that come with a bone stock AR????
No need for plastic or free float handguards.. just hold the barrel like a man.
What about 7000 series would lend itself to better for. Rail system than 6000? Where is 6000 falling short?
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I wouldn't say that 6000 Al is falling short, but it is my understanding that 7000 is stronger and more wear resistant, so I always choose it over 6000 whenever I can. A handguard (or RE, receiver, optic mount, flashlight, etc) can be made lighter and still be just as strong, or the same weight and be stronger. Wear resistance can come into play with a bare handguard, also.
If I am wrong, let me know.
:lol:
No need for plastic or free float handguards.. just hold the barrel like a man.
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