RMR presentation speed is faster than with iron sights v. The internet is wrong

[Eurodriver]

Having never timed myself I had assumed (because I read the internet, see links below as examples) that an RMR equipped handgun would be slower presenting and getting accurate aimed fire on target than iron sights.

Wrong.

I shot 100 rounds with a G19 Gen5 with OEM sights and 100 rounds with a G19 Gen4 with OEM sights from a timer for both splits and draw times. The target was an NRA B-29, and the objective was to keep them in the 9 ring. With irons my best draw time was 1.01, once, and my "comfort zone" seemed to settle in around ~1.15.

I then immediately switched to a G19 Gen4 with an RM06 using the same ammo at the same target at the same distance without any practice whatsoever. I have never shot an RMR equipped handgun for time and just shot 200 rounds with iron sights. I felt like this would be perfect for seeing what its like with "no practice". With the RMR, my best draw time was .99, with several <1.04...with even better accuracy than open sights. I didn't get pictures of the iron sight targets, but you'll have to take my word for it*

I theorize that if you actually use the sights when you shoot with irons, then when you present your pistol to the target the dot ends up being right above them anyway and having the red dot on the target eliminates the need for sight alignment and - boom. Shot on target. If this is incorrect, someone please chime in with your thoughts.

In this video you will see me shoot a 0.99 sec presentation shot at 12 feet with an RMR equipped Glock, with several 1.00, 1.03s, following. You'll just have to believe that they were in the 9 ring. This begins around 3:55.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obg7SMYjiwY
(Some of you are probably wondering, did Euro just discover the GoPro? Negative. I record myself pretty often shooting to figure out what to improve. I just decided to start sharing...I don't make videos for entertainment so if they suck that's too bad. *I have the full ~39 minute video if anyone doubts the above or has an abundance of freetime and wants to hear me run my mouth. I threw this video together quickly, but the splits were also faster with the RMR.)


https://i.imgur.com/qzXkdxI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oEDsKKh.jpg

https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-125769.html
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-101058.html
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-96082.html

[jpmuscle]

Euro's one man initiated resurrection of M4c continues.

Good stuff [emoji106]

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[T2C]

I have been shooting handguns since the 1960's. I've fired hundreds of rounds through handguns with iron sights and red dot sights on a timer on the same day for comparison. My times with first shot on target are 40% faster with iron sights out to 25 meters.

If you cut your teeth on electronic sights, a RDS may be the way to go. If you have extensive experience with iron sights, and your eyes haven't completely failed you, a RDS may be a hindrance.

[Eurodriver]

I have been shooting handguns since the 1960's. I've fired hundreds of rounds through handguns with iron sights and red dot sights on a timer on the same day for comparison. My times with first shot on target are 40% faster with iron sights out to 25 meters.

I knew I forgot to do something. I should have varied the range. I guess I will have to go back out there tomorrow :alcoholic:

I’ve also noticed I have a strong tendency to immediately retract the pistol when firing one round for speed. I need to cut that shit out.

[nightchief]

Euro's one man initiated resurrection of M4c continues.

Good stuff [emoji106]

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We need a sub forum called "shooting the gun", then a rifle and pistol sub category.

Great stuff...

[young_gun]

I put an RM06 on my Gen 4 19 just the other day and I was amazed at how much easier it is to shoot accurately and quickly. You said the other day that an RMR on a stock Glock is like cheating and I'll be damned if I didn't think the exact same thing.

Glad to see it confirmed with real times.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

Eurodriver, making m4c great again one highly pragmatic post at a time. Thank you for your service sir.


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[Defaultmp3]

I have been shooting handguns since the 1960's. I've fired hundreds of rounds through handguns with iron sights and red dot sights on a timer on the same day for comparison. My times with first shot on target are 40% faster with iron sights out to 25 meters.

If you cut your teeth on electronic sights, a RDS may be the way to go. If you have extensive experience with iron sights, and your eyes haven't completely failed you, a RDS may be a hindrance.Yeah, I tend to be of the opinion that the RDS'd handgun can be slower for very advanced shooters and for very inexperienced shooters; the former because the RDS gives less of an index until you're near full presentation and the latter because the window is so small. For the vast majority of serious shooters, I suspect that the RDS will generally be faster, often noticeably so.

[Firefly]

Should the stars align, I have a 5904 with Adj sights I'd like to run against you.

I see the merit of the RMR and am on board but T2C brings up a cogent point about irons.

There are yet still some Sith out there....

But on average, yes. RMR is fast.

[MegademiC]

So I'm guessing your gen5 will be going to Doug?
My gen4 is going next month. I'm looking forward to doing a comparison-haven't shot an rmr pistol yet.

[jpmuscle]

So I'm guessing your gen5 will be going to Doug?
My gen4 is going next month. I'm looking forward to doing a comparison-haven't shot an rmr pistol yet.By many accounts L&M is well regarded also.

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[YVK]

I theorize that if you actually use the sights when you shoot with irons, then when you present your pistol to the target the dot ends up being right above them anyway and having the red dot on the target eliminates the need for sight alignment and - boom. Shot on target. If this is incorrect, someone please chime in with your thoughts.




You eliminate the sight alignment and you eliminate visual focus shift from target to front sight so you get some speed advantage. On the other hand, you become very dependent on indexing in your presentation with RDS. How you choose your testing and how you do it may affect your outcomes.

[Spiffums]

The RMR (and dot sights in general) get faster the more you use them. I have a problem going from RMR to my match gun with red FO front sight. I forget to center it in the rear notch because I see red dot and shoot.

[El Cid]

Good shooting Euro. It looks like you're using a revolver grip on the gun. Is that by design?

[foxtrotx1]

My experience shooting steel in the carry optics and limited divisions:

FO iron front is faster FOR ME up to a certain range. AFTER that range, red dot all day. It's point and click at 50 yards with an RMR.

That being said, I have less than 2k rounds down range with an RMR pistol.

[ghostly]

I've daily carried an RMR equipped handgun for two years. My observation is as follows:

I'm faster to get the first shot on target with fiber optics than the RDS at 15 yards and under.

I'm faster to get an A-zone with the RDS from ten yards and out.

My accuracy and speed are not as good with FOs from greater than 15 yards.

I cannot shoot FO well beyond 25.

The RDS made me a better shooter with irons.

I live in a hot, humid environment. Most of the myths about the RMR are just that. It does not fog if treated with catcrap. It is not fragile. It doesn't scratch easily. The LED does not get occluded easily. Rain does not stick to the window. Batteries do not wear out quickly (I'm on my second one, my third will be installed next month...decided to change them on my birthday regardless of life) It does not flicker when properly installed. The weight doesn't make your gun malfunction.

The RMR is great to rack from; better than ledge sights. It improves both SPEED and accuracy. I stared to realize the benefit before any live-fire. Just about 200-300 reps had my mechanics down. Though I'm a little rusty, my holster to A-zones were about 0.98ish at ten where my FO would take me more like 1.48ish before I was confident enough to press the trigger.

The key is trusting the dot and getting your mechanics down. Though I've slacked off on handgun shooting the past six months, I've got over ten thousand rounds through the RDS and I'm now trying to decide if I want to put one on my G34 or if I want one on my backup CCW first.


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[HD1911]

I've daily carried an RMR equipped handgun for two years. My observation is as follows:

I'm faster to get the first shot on target with fiber optics than the RDS at 15 yards and under.

I'm faster to get an A-zone with the RDS from ten yards and out.

My accuracy and speed are not as good with FOs from greater than 15 yards.

I cannot shoot FO well beyond 25.

The RDS made me a better shooter with irons.

I live in a hot, humid environment. Most of the myths about the RMR are just that. It does not fog if treated with catcrap. It is not fragile. It doesn't scratch easily. The LED does not get occluded easily. Rain does not stick to the window. Batteries do not wear out quickly (I'm on my second one, my third will be installed next month...decided to change them on my birthday regardless of life) It does not flicker when properly installed. The weight doesn't make your gun malfunction.

The RMR is great to rack from; better than ledge sights. It improves both SPEED and accuracy. I stared to realize the benefit before any live-fire. Just about 200-300 reps had my mechanics down. Though I'm a little rusty, my holster to A-zones were about 0.98ish at ten where my FO would take me more like 1.48ish before I was confident enough to press the trigger.

The key is trusting the dot and getting your mechanics down. Though I've slacked off on handgun shooting the past six months, I've got over ten thousand rounds through the RDS and I'm now trying to decide if I want to put one on my G34 or if I want one on my backup CCW first.


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you make me want to take the plunge and RMR2 my new G19.5 .......

[Eurodriver]

I've daily carried an RMR equipped handgun for two years. My observation is as follows:

I'm faster to get the first shot on target with fiber optics than the RDS at 15 yards and under.

I'm faster to get an A-zone with the RDS from ten yards and out.

My accuracy and speed are not as good with FOs from greater than 15 yards.

I cannot shoot FO well beyond 25.

The RDS made me a better shooter with irons.

I live in a hot, humid environment. Most of the myths about the RMR are just that. It does not fog if treated with catcrap. It is not fragile. It doesn't scratch easily. The LED does not get occluded easily. Rain does not stick to the window. Batteries do not wear out quickly (I'm on my second one, my third will be installed next month...decided to change them on my birthday regardless of life) It does not flicker when properly installed. The weight doesn't make your gun malfunction.

The RMR is great to rack from; better than ledge sights. It improves both SPEED and accuracy. I stared to realize the benefit before any live-fire. Just about 200-300 reps had my mechanics down. Though I'm a little rusty, my holster to A-zones were about 0.98ish at ten where my FO would take me more like 1.48ish before I was confident enough to press the trigger.

The key is trusting the dot and getting your mechanics down. Though I've slacked off on handgun shooting the past six months, I've got over ten thousand rounds through the RDS and I'm now trying to decide if I want to put one on my G34 or if I want one on my backup CCW first.


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This is a great post.

[WickedWillis]

I recently put together a Glock 17 RMR project, and it's my first foray into RDS on handguns. I didn't anticipate the learning curve to be so high. I won't carry it or use it for HD until I am 100% comfortable and know for a fact what it's going to do every time. I'm not even confident on my zero with it right now.

I have several thousand rounds down range using irons (not as many as most here), and only the last few months have I truly "Got it" and am able to focus properly with them (The irons). All it took was more trigger time. I know the same will be true with the RMR as well, but I am just not there yet. I really love posts like this.

Euro is doing the Lord's work on converting me into only a Glock 19 and Colt 6920 owner, I already have two G19's I guess I just need that damn Colt.....

But thanks again Euro.

[grizzlyblake]

I'd like to see the RMR G19 become more widespread. Everybody like to post sexy photos of their chest rig and AR with nice optics, and then they have an iron-sighted G19 with one spare mag kind of hanging out in the shadows like the ugly kid nobody wants to be friends with.

It would be cool if every gun guy out and about had a concealed RMR G19 AIWB and was switched-on ready-to-go with it like they are with a carbine.

[Firefly]

Some guns need RMRs and some need good, honest irons.

Like I would, and will, RMR a G19 but my 34 is like an A2 Rifle.

That said, most shootings, statistically, are well within 7 yards.

And as Nate Forrest said, "First with the most wins".

An RDS is easier to pick up than a night sight and most are kinda fat with the front sight (not bad up close).

Plus I wish they'd stop putting tritium on rear sights. It is just distracting. I sharpie it anyways.

Like a duty gun should at least have NS if a dept is too cheap or uptight about weaponlights.

Pistols have been discounted and gone through a bit of a slump but it can be more versatile than a subgun in its niche.

I feel like sometimes people are trying to buy blingy spin rims instead of really good tires. And others yet need to learn how to drive.

Like if you CCW and need more than 15 rounds then you really need more friends with rifles.

[grizzlyblake]

...
That said, most shootings, statistically, are well within 7 yards.
...
...
Like if you CCW and need more than 15 rounds then you really need more friends with rifles.

The odds of getting in a gun fight with your CCW are exponentially higher than getting in a gun fight at your house wearing your plate carrier and hot rod carbine.

I truly don't understand why the gun culture spends so much more time on the carbine and essentially treats the CCW like a magic rabbit's foot where as long as you have your pocket 9mm and maybe one spare mag you're ready for anything.

[ghostly]

The need to use a gun is very slim, so now we want to hamstring ourselves? The purpose of the gun is for the statistical anomalies rather than eventualities. You're exponentially more likely to save yourself or others with medical training.

If we want to say we are only worried about the most likely, leave the gun home. You don't need it, statistically.

The problem is we don't know what we'll need when the time comes. Therefore, stack the odds on your favor with training, gear, and mindset. I never thought I'd pull my CCW, until one time when I didn't have it and reached for it. Then a few years later I had to draw it. Having 15+1, a 23 round reload, and an RDS by all means didn't somehow hurt me. Thank God I had it. Sometimes a reload is a good idea, not for round count, but failures. The magazine is the weakest link in most systems. Thank God I didn't have to discharge it, but it may have saved my life.


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[grizzlyblake]

I agree with you. What I'm saying is that I think the handgun is being left behind in favor of the carbine. Even on this forum a carbine is considered nearly worthless if it is irons only, but plastic Glock OEM sights are carried as CCW ready. That dichotomy does not make sense.

[WickedWillis]

I agree with you. What I'm saying is that I think the handgun is being left behind in favor of the carbine. Even on this forum a carbine is considered nearly worthless if it is irons only, but plastic Glock OEM sights are carried as CCW ready. That dichotomy does not make sense.

Where have you read any of this? A good quality carbine with irons only trumps a handgun any day of the week for most everything. BUT who carries a carbine on their person every single day, everywhere, that doesn't have a III'er neck tattoo and a Chris Costa Fleshlight?

OEM Glock sights are a no-go for carry, duty, or defensive use on this forum as well. I have no idea where you are reading this stuff man.

Also, guys train much more with their carry guns on here than they do carbines. From what I'm seeing at least.

[Firefly]

This is where I am going to go off the reservation a bit....

If you live on a ranch and the police will literally take an hour or longer to get to you then a solid AR would probably be good.

If you are in your bedroom and you hear the Fellas busting in then a rifle may put you at a bit of a deficit vis a vis a solid handgun.

Violence of action and quick maneuvering is better than clumsily fighting with a rifle in a hallway.

They are likely unarmored and will flee as soon as homie drops.

I have yet to see any of the Fellas want to stay and fight like they were a crack fireteam.

People cleared tunnels with Brownings and 1911s. A lot to great effect.

Any gun is better than no gun but I dont see the Fellas as being stay and play.

They will freak, shit themselves, bunch up like the 3 stooges at the door(making them easier to zap, mind you) and there it is.

The chinese lady in like Gwinnett(?) last year had 3 or 4 come in on her home camera and she came out with like a 1911 and got one as the others bee lined.

So...unless using a rifle is literally your damn job then 99% of it can be handled with a pistol and some extra mags and good ammo.

A rifle is more offensive than defensive.

Per CCW, yes you may have a bad encounter if wrong place wrong time so thats where holster to target is key.
Hell even in policing you are gonna be hit on a traffic stop or walking up on it.

You can bust some heads at 50 easy with a pistol with just consistent practice. (figuratively, please dont try snap headshots at 50 yards(

The vibe may seem like most clamor for the rifle but a lot here support solid handgunnery. Esp. ensconced in a house.

[ghostly]

I personally train eight handgun sessions to one session with a carbine. The carbine skills aren't as perishable. I can't take the carbine out of my home. I think perhaps you're confusion stems from this being a carbine-centric page.

I wouldn't use OEM sights for anything. Aneriglo/D4 sights are like $40. If you can't afford that, you can't afford to train.


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[MegademiC]

I think the big difference is rmr on a handgun is difficult to pick up for newbs. You have to be fairly proficient to be able to see it on the draw (at least that’s the complaint I read).

An rds on a rifle - most people will be able to find the dot while presenting the rifle after like, 1 day of practice.

And fwiw, a rifle doesn’t have to be clumsy in the hallway - again, practice. If you don’t practice, you shouldn’t be clearing your house.

[Firefly]

I think the big difference is rmr on a handgun is difficult to pick up for newbs. You have to be fairly proficient to be able to see it on the draw (at least that’s the complaint I read).

An rds on a rifle - most people will be able to find the dot while presenting the rifle after like, 1 day of practice.

And fwiw, a rifle doesn’t have to be clumsy in the hallway - again, practice. If you don’t practice, you shouldn’t be clearing your house.

There may be a bit of a learning curve but a rifle is more stable in general than a handgun. But not always ideal for tight spaces. I am sure there are guys who train religiously for professional CQB with rifles and you can do it but for most a handgun might be better.

I think building fundamentals is worth it. Even in my own experience, I have cleared occupied houses with a handgun more than I ever did with a shotgun or a subgun(though I did that too). Actually the pistol was a bit handier. There's more to it but I think it is worth it for folks to train to use an RMR. Dot size matters. Plus maybe just the basic fundamentals.

Without getting tangential, here is an example of a woman with nominal training overwhelming her aggressors. A rifle may have slowed her down. A person can only do what that person can only do.

I think in lowlight, an RMR might have been a boon for this woman


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxBcCSaBtXc


Just food for thought. Everything is a building block.

[Firefly]

Again not wanting to get tangential, but per that case, this video gives good insight into her mindset and her own admission of violence of action.

Again, an RMR could have made her more efficient with training


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsreAFzubXM

Again presentation speed, violence of action, and efficacy

[YVK]

Most of the myths about the RMR are just that.


They are myths until they happen. Out of my circle of people that I shoot and train with on occasions, two tried RMRs and both had theirs go down for different reasons. They didn't make any drama out of it, online or otherwise, simply went back to carrying irons even though one of them is shooting carry optics. The usual "it's not the odds, it's stakes" considerations.

[grizzlyblake]

I remember that Gwinnett shooting, but didn't really look at the video before. Good on her for charging straight at her attackers. I wonder how it would've played out if she had held a static position and waited on them.

I don't think she was seeing the sights anyway so a RMR probably wouldn't have mattered. I'd like to do a shoot house in the dark to see how something like that would really unfold. Makes me think iron sights and a tight-beam WML would be very good whether carbine or pistol, as devolving to tunnel vision point-shooting would probably happen for most non LE/Mil people.

[ghostly]

They are myths until they happen. Out of my circle of people that I shoot and train with on occasions, two tried RMRs and both had theirs go down for different reasons. They didn't make any drama out of it, online or otherwise, simply went back to carrying irons even though one of them is shooting carry optics. The usual "it's not the odds, it's stakes" considerations.

Where did I say they couldn't go down?


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[YVK]

Most of the myths about the RMR are just that. It does not fog if treated with catcrap. It is not fragile. It doesn't scratch easily. The LED does not get occluded easily. Rain does not stick to the window. Batteries do not wear out quickly (I'm on my second one, my third will be installed next month...decided to change them on my birthday regardless of life) It does not flicker when properly installed. The weight doesn't make your gun malfunction.


You didn't say they go down, neither did I say that you said so. You said this stuff doesn't happen. Some of that does and not a myth.

[ghostly]

You didn't say they go down, neither did I say that you said so. You said this stuff doesn't happen. Some of that does and not a myth.

I'm not going to argue with you about it. But I shall say that it is said they are fragile and my experience says otherwise. I'll reiterate what I said is true.


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[YVK]

Good, I don't think there is a good reason to argue. I don't think they are fragile. I think they are the second most robust slide-mountable RDS and the most robust concealable RDS. However, some have gone down to water, some have flickered and lost dots, and some have just died without a warning. I think the odds of that are probably low and it is an individual decision how to weigh those odds.

[ghostly]

The flickering dots are largely to installation error, from what I've been told.


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[joeg26er]

I've been using an RMR on a 11.5 pistol for over 100 rounds without any flickering. I have a G17/4 and RMR as well. Both have the RMR anti-flicker plate. No flickering as of yet.
I will have to say the RMR AR seems just as fast as my Aimpoint. I have yet to stretch the legs on the G17 RMR but I have noted there seems to be a bit more energy to the recoil impulse due to the added mass of the RMR on the slide.

[WickedWillis]

The flickering dots are largely to installation error, from what I've been told.


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The flickering dots have been an issue on the Gen 1 RMR installed without a seal plate in my experience.

[ghostly]

The flickering dots have been an issue on the Gen 1 RMR installed without a seal plate in my experience.

Seems bending the contacts solved it for most people, or using a thicker battery like Duracell or Sony.


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[WickedWillis]

Seems bending the contacts solved it for most people, or using a thicker battery like Duracell or Sony.


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The thicker collars might work like you mentioned. Panasonic seems to have the thickest.

[Outlander Systems]

That's where this old geezer is at.

I'm not .mil.

I have zero practical uses for anything other than a handgun.


The odds of getting in a gun fight with your CCW are exponentially higher than getting in a gun fight at your house wearing your plate carrier and hot rod carbine.

I truly don't understand why the gun culture spends so much more time on the carbine and essentially treats the CCW like a magic rabbit's foot where as long as you have your pocket 9mm and maybe one spare mag you're ready for anything.

[joeg26er]

How many top level open class handgun matches are won without a red dot?
What are their times vs the same course with iron sights?

[WickedWillis]

How many top level open class handgun matches are won without a red dot?
What are their times vs the same course with iron sights?

Are you going to answer your own questions here, or are we meant to do the leg work to find out?

[Outlander Systems]

It's a pretty irrelevant question.

How fast are you shooting without a red dot?
How fast are you shooting with a red dot?

The end.


Are you going to answer your own questions here, or are we meant to do the leg work to find out?

[WickedWillis]

It's a pretty irrelevant question.

How fast are you shooting without a red dot?
How fast are you shooting with a red dot?

The end.

I just wasn't sure if the poster was using an example, or asking everyone in general.

[Outlander Systems]

I was answering for him. :p


I just wasn't sure if the poster was using an example, or asking everyone in general.

[cutter_spc]

It's a pretty irrelevant question.

How fast are you shooting without a red dot?
How fast are you shooting with a red dot?

The end.

Very, very good questions there! I plan on answering those for myself in a few weeks.

[Outlander Systems]

Solid. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what anyone else's times are. What are yours? And what do you need to lower them?


Very, very good questions there! I plan on answering those for myself in a few weeks.

[YVK]

How many top level open class handgun matches are won without a red dot?
What are their times vs the same course with iron sights?

Your question is hard to understand. What matches are you referring to? What is open class?
There's no more one to one fair comparison available within the competition field.

[young_gun]

Welp, I just got done with a 1400 round, two day long Pistol 1 class and like I've been saying for a long time to anyone who asks (by long time I mean like a month lol) the RMR is the best thing ever.

Shooting on the move and making hits on on B-zone steel from 15ish (maybe 20 I'm not too sure) was super easy since all I had to do was squeeze the trigger when the dot was on the steel.

Hold overs are a thing with pistols too, even though it's really close to the bore I still needed to adjust slightly when I was at 3-10 yards. Not so much at 7-10 but still just a little.

Shooting at night is hard with a red dot, I can't even imagine how crappy it is with irons, especially when you're getting the 3 dots messed up and aligning the wrong ones in the wrong places. Also hand held lights are pretty garbage.

I also noticed that I was pretty quick and often among the first to have shots on target. Whether we were drawing from concealment or starting with the gun drawn. All I did was start squeezing the trigger once the dot was where I wanted it. The other guys in the class were of varying degrees of experience, but for myself and one other guy it was our first class ever. I shoot more than your average two or three box a year guys, but this was only the second or third time live firing from a holster.

The only trouble I ran into was when we shot a single round completely cold at 50 yards and my zero was not even really a thing. After I rezerod I feel much more confident.

My conclusions drawn from this experience are that I need to learn and practice with irons in case my dot goes down, but the advantage is undeniable and I have complete confidence in my abilities to make fast, good hits with a pistol in close and slightly extended distances

[ramairthree]

My experience with RDS has been-
On a carbine, time to target, splits, hits, etc. everything better than irons from day one.
(In terms of basic combat shooting from in your face to 200m or so, slower shooting from 2 -500 working your sights for range, still an advantage with irons to a guy with decent eyes and a pro with adjusting his irons)

On a handgun,
From day one splits, longer shots, etc. are faster.
But the learning curve from draw to first shot lags for a while.
Not that big a lag for an inexperienced shooter, or a shooting god.
But for some reason, longer for the guys in the middle.

[young_gun]

My experience with RDS has been-
On a carbine, time to target, splits, hits, etc. everything better than irons from day one.
(In terms of basic combat shooting from in your face to 200m or so, slower shooting from 2 -500 working your sights for range, still an advantage with irons to a guy with decent eyes and a pro with adjusting his irons)

On a handgun,
From day one splits, longer shots, etc. are faster.
But the learning curve from draw to first shot lags for a while.
Not that big a lag for an inexperienced shooter, or a shooting god.
But for some reason, longer for the guys in the middle.

The learning curve is definitely a thing with pistols. The first time I took it to the range to get it zeroed I was pissed and I felt like I just wasted a ton of money. Fast forward about 2000 rounds and the dot is in the window 9 times out 10 when drawing from pretty much any position.

[YVK]

Find nearest USPSA match and shoot your RMR in carry optics division. Might give another prospective about making fast and accurate shots, and in a comparison with shooters who do practice with their iron sights.

[young_gun]

Find nearest USPSA match and shoot your RMR in carry optics division. Might give another prospective about making fast and accurate shots, and in a comparison with shooters who do practice with their iron sights.

That's on my list of things to do. It might not be a USPSA match but I'll certainly be shooting matches in 2018. I understand that I'm not the best shooter or even really above average. Just commenting on the ease of learning to do all of these cool guy things for a newer shooter.

[bear13]

I have nothing useful to add here. But my g19.5 slide is at atei with a rmr 2. And I am hoping I can mirror the thoughts of those with experience and really appreciate the dot.


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[joeg26er]

Red dot on long rifles seems much faster. Red Dot on 22 non reciprocating slide is also fast and much more accurate. Still have not gotten used to the red dot on the reciprocating glock slide. Glock irons are faster right now.

[GJM]

Using USPSA Carry Optics as a test bed, I find a Delta Point Pro significantly faster than a RMR — both to shot one and for follow up shots/transitions. The DP Pro display is larger and clearer, which I believe accounts for the difference. I have also found the RMR to be slightly more subject to fouling by rain.

In terms of raw speed, for Bill drills at 7 yards, and similar gross tasks, I find a FO equipped pistol slightly faster than the identical pistol with a DP Pro. We are talking pretty small differences — like my PR for a draw and three A zone shots at 7 yards is 1.01 with irons and 1.08 with the DP Pro.

I have returned two RMR units for repair and three DP Pro units, including one DP Pro just now, for the dot intermittently turning off and not waking up during matches. Given my ability to still shoot iron sights, neither the RMR nor DP Pro meets my requirements for carry. I believe Duracell 2032 batteries are the number one choice, as I have had premature failures with Sony and Energizer batteries in the DP Pro units.

[Biggy]

As far as I know, SME's like Hackathron, LAV, Proctor, McNamara, Langdon, Lamb don't use RMR's on their personal carry pistols, and I have to wonder why. It seems that most people if they train with them and if they give them a chance the RMR's do offer somewhat of advantage in speed. Evidently to them, there must be some things about them that they don't prefer over traditional iron sighted pistols

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

I know when I was in my last Hackathorn class (~2 years ago) he was completely open to the idea of red dots on pistols. He said, however, that until someone shrank the Aimpoint down to a smaller package or the RMR types figured out how to deal with rain they were hobby only. I have zero idea if this has been addressed in the meantime.

I got turned off to them when my RMR on my FNX started fritizing out and the one on my friend’s did the same thing (which is funny because I told him his wasn’t mounted properly, needed to use proper torque settings, etc. Then about a week later bam!). I sent it back to Trijicon and they fixed it. By then I wasn’t interested and just put the thing on my VCOG on my Scar.

[Biggy]

I know when I was in my last Hackathorn class (~2 years ago) he was completely open to the idea of red dots on pistols. He said, however, that until someone shrank the Aimpoint down to a smaller package or the RMR types figured out how to deal with rain they were hobby only. I have zero idea if this has been addressed in the meantime.

I got turned off to them when my RMR on my FNX started fritizing out and the one on my friend’s did the same thing (which is funny because I told him his wasn’t mounted properly, needed to use proper torque settings, etc. Then about a week later bam!). I sent it back to Trijicon and they fixed it. By then I wasn’t interested and just put the thing on my VCOG on my Scar.


I agree, I am pretty sure most if not all of those mentioned above are pretty opened minded on things and have probably at least tried an RMR sighted pistol.

[bear13]

Has anyone had failures with new rmr 2?

I really dug the deltapoint pro but from what I have heard anyone with extensive use with them hated battery life or had failures.


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[YVK]

I agree, I am pretty sure most if not all of those mentioned above are pretty opened minded on things and have probably at least tried them.

Many of them have indeed tried. Their attitude to the pistol is largely based on their service experiences where it is a sidearm/secondary arm. It is a last safety, a secondary parachute. Doesn't have to be fancy, has to be 100% reliable. Until RDS meet the durability and reliability of irons, they are unlikely be accepted on pistols by folks with a real service experience. Langdon quotes someone in the industry who he knows spending a lot of time behind the dot from professional standpoint, and the rec is Aimpoint Micro. I have it on my Atom slide, and the thing is slow as constipation in my B class hands. Window is too small, and GJM already mentioned how small windowed optics including RMR do when compared to larger window optics. My hope is that I live long enough to see a closed emitter RDS with AP durability and DP window size.

[Alex V]

I found the opposit to be true. Sort of. I am slower out of the holster wth an RMR than I am with irons on the first shot, but follow up shots are a lot faster. I attribute this to practice since I just started shootings a handgun with an RDs this summer.

For some reason I have a harder time acquiring the dot when I present the gun from the holder than I do aligning the irons. However once I acquire it I find that I can track it through recoil a lot better than irons and shoot much faster.

I think I just need more practice but only one public range in NJ will allow me to draw from a holster. This state sucks.

[KITTEN_FRENZY]

I found the opposit to be true. Sort of. I am slower out of the holster wth an RMR than I am with irons on the first shot, but follow up shots are a lot faster. I attribute this to practice since I just started shootings a handgun with an RDs this summer.

For some reason I have a harder time acquiring the dot when I present the gun from the holder than I do aligning the irons. However once I acquire it I find that I can track it through recoil a lot better than irons and shoot much faster.

I think I just need more practice but only one public range in NJ will allow me to draw from a holster. This state sucks.

I know how that feels. Only one range in the Chicagoland area allows drawing from a holster... and even then, they only allow it one night a week and OWB strong side only.
I can still practice indexing from high compressed at the range, but that's only half the battle.

[26 Inf]

I found the opposit to be true. Sort of. I am slower out of the holster wth an RMR than I am with irons on the first shot, but follow up shots are a lot faster. I attribute this to practice since I just started shootings a handgun with an RDs this summer.

For some reason I have a harder time acquiring the dot when I present the gun from the holder than I do aligning the irons. However once I acquire it I find that I can track it through recoil a lot better than irons and shoot much faster.

I think I just need more practice but only one public range in NJ will allow me to draw from a holster. This state sucks.

A good individual safety protocol and dry-drills from the holster to first dry snap.

[Alex V]

A good individual safety protocol and dry-drills from the holster to first dry snap.

That's what I do. Have a B8 taped to the inside of my closet door.

[young_gun]

I know when I was in my last Hackathorn class (~2 years ago) he was completely open to the idea of red dots on pistols. He said, however, that until someone shrank the Aimpoint down to a smaller package or the RMR types figured out how to deal with rain they were hobby only. I have zero idea if this has been addressed in the meantime.

I got turned off to them when my RMR on my FNX started fritizing out and the one on my friend’s did the same thing (which is funny because I told him his wasn’t mounted properly, needed to use proper torque settings, etc. Then about a week later bam!). I sent it back to Trijicon and they fixed it. By then I wasn’t interested and just put the thing on my VCOG on my Scar.

I've had mine do the whole flicker during recoil then just straight up turn on and off. It turns out one screw was coming loose since I didn't loctite it enough. On the bright side, I have heard one story of a guy breaking a Type 1 RMR and getting a Type 2 back when he sent it to Trijicon. I'm hoping this is true and I will find out once I break my Type 1.

[Alaskapopo]

I have been shooting Open division with a red dot for 8 years or so and have shot Carry optics for the last year. Irons are faster in close dirty stages no way around that no matter how familiar you get.

[GJM]

I had another DP Pro go Tango Uniform this weekend. Turned on, as I walked around during a USPSA match the dot would go off, and not wake up when I drew the pistol from my holster in the safe area. Once, it blinked out during a stage, and I fired a shot with no dot, which woke it up. Back to Leupold it goes

The Pro holds zero but that is about all the good I can say about them.

[ghostly]

As far as I know, SME's like Hackathron, LAV, Proctor, McNamara, Langdon, Lamb don't use RMR's on their personal carry pistols, and I have to wonder why. It seems that most people if they train with them and if they give them a chance the RMR's do offer somewhat of advantage in speed. Evidently to them, there must be some things about them that they don't prefer over traditional iron sighted pistols

Other SMEs do use them, however. For instance Steve Fisher, Jedi, etc.


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[bear13]

I know there are a lot of instructors. Lav included. Who sometimes will simply not run something that is a non main stream gun or product. Lav has said he loves the vp9 but uses Glock primarily because that is what the majority of his class runs. They also do not like to take the time to test something different. Frankly they can not afford to have something go down in class. I get it to a extent. Or they are a shill for certain brands.


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[Defaultmp3]

Other SMEs do use them, however. For instance Steve Fisher, Jedi, etc.Since when did Jedlinski become an SME? Being a decent shot and instructor alone doesn't make one an SME.

[ghostly]

Since when did Jedlinski become an SME? Being a decent shot and instructor alone doesn't make one an SME.

He is an SME on certainly RDS on pistols and mechanics.


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[Defaultmp3]

He is an SME on certainly RDS on pistols and mechanics.I would strongly disagree with that assertion, but I suppose "SME" is a subjective thing. Still, AFAIK, most of his knowledge is derived from Fisher, he has no professional background related to firearms, and while a damn good CO shooter, that alone doesn't make one an SME in my book.

[Alaskapopo]

I would strongly disagree with that assertion, but I suppose "SME" is a subjective thing. Still, AFAIK, most of his knowledge is derived from Fisher, he has no professional background related to firearms, and while a damn good CO shooter, that alone doesn't make one an SME in my book.

Good competition shooters know their gear and shoot better than anyone else generally.

[hopetonbrown]

What is Jedlinski's USPSA rank?

Edit: answer is M

[ghostly]

I would strongly disagree with that assertion, but I suppose "SME" is a subjective thing. Still, AFAIK, most of his knowledge is derived from Fisher, he has no professional background related to firearms, and while a damn good CO shooter, that alone doesn't make one an SME in my book.

“Professional background related to firearms”...what is that? Making money doing it? Jedi is apparently instructing some folks and having great success. Jedi can use an RDS-equipped handgun better than 99.99% of people alive and he can help you be better with one too. He knows the ins and outs of RDS-equipped handguns. If “expertise” doesn’t describe his knowledge in the field, I guess there isn’t an expert at much of anything.

A lot of guys think being a cop or military is “professional background”, which it is, but it doesn’t mean you know dick and it certainly doesn’t mean you’re either good with the gun or good at instructing others with a gun. I’ve done a little instructing and taught some people with a “professional background with a gun” that I was afraid they would shoot themselves or others on the range.


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[Defaultmp3]

Good competition shooters know their gear and shoot better than anyone else generally.Define "good". Jedlinski is an M class in CO; does that mean every M and GM is now worthy of being called an SME? Most A class shooters destroy most of the top tier military and LE units when it comes to raw pistol shooting; can we also call A class SMEs? I know a fellow that was quite proud of his Federal LE unit's ability to almost universally run the FASTest under 10 seconds, and stated that this was the best out of all of the top American units, including the military SMUs, when looking at the average pistol performance in the units; does that make everyone that has earned a FAST pin or coin an SME? Etc.


“Professional background related to firearms”...what is that? Making money doing it? Jedi is apparently instructing some folks and having great success. Jedi can use an RDS-equipped handgun better than 99.99% of people alive and he can help you be better with one too. He knows the ins and outs of RDS-equipped handguns. If “expertise” doesn’t describe his knowledge in the field, I guess there isn’t an expert at much of anything.

A lot of guys think being a cop or military is “professional background”, which it is, but it doesn’t mean you know dick and it certainly doesn’t mean you’re either good with the gun or good at instructing others with a gun. I’ve done a little instructing and taught some people with a “professional background with a gun” that I was afraid they would shoot themselves or others on the range. The professional background is but a part of being an SME; being a former SMU unit member alone doesn't make one an SME, I would certainly agree with that... just like being a good competition shooter in itself does not make one an SME. I've heard Jedlinski speak about shooting with slide-mounted optics, and nothing he has said is new or revolutionary; more over, some of what he says is in direct contradiction to some of what Karl Rehn stated in his RDS report (http://blog.krtraining.com/red-dot-study-key-points/) and on his personal experience, and Rehn is an even more competent shooter, being a GM both in production (11th in the world, according to classifiers) and carry optics (1st in the world, according to classifiers), and is also the owner of KR Training, a far larger training enterprise than what Jedlinski runs.

Moreover, even if we did want to give Jedlinski the SME title based purely off of his competition abilities, how on Earth does that make his opinions on what to carry for self-defense applicable? Robbie Leatham, whom most of us would consider an SME in shooting without issue, doesn't "believe in magic bullets", and thus doesn't make an effort to carry modern duty/self-defense ammo, and is perfectly content with using ball ammo in his carry gun; is that a good idea? Jedlinski has a good balance for self-defense, given his hobbies in both shooting and BJJ, but that doesn't make him anywhere near an SME by my books. Is he a knowledgeable guy? Definitely. But merely being knowledgeable isn't enough to be called an SME, IMO.

[ghostly]

Define "good". Jedlinski is an M class in CO; does that mean every M and GM is now worthy of being called an SME? Most A class shooters destroy most of the top tier military and LE units when it comes to raw pistol shooting; can we also call A class SMEs? I know a fellow that was quite proud of his Federal LE unit's ability to almost universally run the FASTest under 10 seconds, and stated that this was the best out of all of the top American units, including the military SMUs, when looking at the average pistol performance in the units; does that make everyone that has earned a FAST pin or coin an SME? Etc.

The professional background is but a part of being an SME; being a former SMU unit member alone doesn't make one an SME, I would certainly agree with that... just like being a good competition shooter in itself does not make one an SME. I've heard Jedlinski speak about shooting with slide-mounted optics, and nothing he has said is new or revolutionary; more over, some of what he says is in direct contradiction to some of what Karl Rehn stated in his RDS report (http://blog.krtraining.com/red-dot-study-key-points/) and on his personal experience, and Rehn is an even more competent shooter, being a GM both in production (11th in the world, according to classifiers) and carry optics (1st in the world, according to classifiers), and is also the owner of KR Training, a far larger training enterprise than what Jedlinski runs.

Moreover, even if we did want to give Jedlinski the SME title based purely off of his competition abilities, how on Earth does that make his opinions on what to carry for self-defense applicable? Robbie Leatham, whom most of us would consider an SME in shooting without issue, doesn't "believe in magic bullets", and thus doesn't make an effort to carry modern duty/self-defense ammo, and is perfectly content with using ball ammo in his carry gun; is that a good idea? Jedlinski has a good balance for self-defense, given his hobbies in both shooting and BJJ, but that doesn't make him anywhere near an SME by my books. Is he a knowledgeable guy? Definitely. But merely being knowledgeable isn't enough to be called an SME, IMO.

I didn’t claim he was an SME on tactics. Being a secret squirrel high-speed delta shuttle door gunner does not make one an SME.

There are lots of fields with lots of SMEs. I think you’re interpreting what an SME is differently than I do. I take it for it’s literal definition, and device doesn’t qualify or disqualify one as an SME in something other than for their specific service.


Your distraction doesn’t have much to do with the topic at hand of performance with an RDS. Speaking of which, another is Aaron Cohen.

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[Defaultmp3]

I didn’t claim he was an SME on tactics. Being a secret squirrel high-speed delta shuttle door gunner does not make one an SME.

There are lots of fields with lots of SMEs. I think you’re interpreting what an SME is differently than I do. I take it for it’s literal definition, and device doesn’t qualify or disqualify one as an SME in something other than for their specific service.Maybe. Maybe not. However, you brought him up as an SME that uses a slide-mounted optic, to which I had a problem with, because I'm not even sure I'd consider him an SME in as narrow a field as CO in USPSA. By using him to justify carry choice, it implies that he is an SME in self-defense tactics; otherwise, I can point to any number of SMEs to justify all types of crap... even if they're not SMEs in the field that is relevant to the discussion at hand (like the aforementioned issue with TGO and FMJ as carry ammo).


Your distraction doesn’t have much to do with the topic at hand of performance with an RDS.Fine. I'll have to dig around on Facebook, but I know for a fact that Rehn has stated that he ignores the RDS at close ranges, and utilizes the irons when shooting CO in USPSA... which would suggest that, yes, under certain conditions and skill levels, the RDS is slower than irons.


Speaking of which, another is Aaron Cohen.I'm 100% sure that Aaron Cohen does not utilize slide-mounted optics, nor would I give a shit about anything he says self-defense related. Now, Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics? Yeah, he's a big slide-mounted optic guy, though again, not someone I'd necessary consider an SME, though again, certainly very knowledgeable.

[ghostly]

Maybe. Maybe not. However, you brought him up as an SME that uses a slide-mounted optic, to which I had a problem with, because I'm not even sure I'd consider him an SME in as narrow a field as CO in USPSA. By using him to justify carry choice, it implies that he is an SME in self-defense tactics; otherwise, I can point to any number of SMEs to justify all types of crap... even if they're not SMEs in the field that is relevant to the discussion at hand (like the aforementioned issue with TGO and FMJ as carry ammo).

I'm 100% sure that Aaron Cohen does not utilize slide-mounted optics, nor would I give a shit about anything he says self-defense related. Now, Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics? Yeah, he's a big slide-mounted optic guy, though again, not someone I'd necessary consider an SME, though again, certainly very knowledgeable.

Autocorrect got my phone.

I didn’t say an SME of CO division of USPSA. What is re topic of this thread? Presentation speed with RDS. We are talking about SHOOTING with a RDS. Again, we aren’t talking tactics. And again, if we are qualifying service as a qualification to be an SME, most of the guys that get mentioned have been out of the service for 20 years or more; before slide-mounted optics were a thing. Relevance declines with time.

Skills, ability to teach, performing the research and time isn’t mutual exclusive with service. Ever hear of Todd Hodnett? Never served, never was a sniper. Somehow, his expertise has led to redefining precision shooting for many in our military. Is he not an SME? The military sure seems to think so.

If you’re not a fan of red dots, that’s cool. You don’t have to be, but I’m sure Jedi could teach you a thing or to about them. He has put the time in behind an slide-mounted RDS.


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[Defaultmp3]

I didn’t say an SME of CO division of USPSA. What is re topic of this thread? Presentation speed with RDS. We are talking about SHOOTING with a RDS.Yes, but one would think that knowing how to shoot with a slide-mounted RDS would be a pretty important component of CO in USPSA. Anyway, my point was, that's the only thing notable about Jedlinski, that he does quite well in CO. Other than that, he does not have any stand-out skills or accomplishments.


Again, we aren’t talking tactics.Ah, but there-in lies the problem: what people carry doesn't necessarily mean they shoot the best with it. Raw shooting is a small component of self-defense and mil/LE.


Skills, ability to teach, performing the research and time isn’t mutual exclusive with service. Ever hear of Todd Hodnett? Never served, never was a sniper. Somehow, his expertise has led to redefining precision shooting for many in our military. Is he not an SME? The military sure seems to think so.I never stated it was exclusive to those that have served. My point was that Jedlinski has no other qualifications; if he had served and was also a great competition shooter, I could see why you would choose him as an SME whose choice of carry should have an influence; if he has been a long-time major shooting instructor and a great competition shooter, I'd also give it some consideration, depending on the type of instruction. Etc. Also, I already stated that TGO is an SME, and he never served, either; nor has Rehn, who specifically states that the RDS is slower than irons at short, typical self-defense ranges.


If you’re not a fan of red dots, that’s cool. You don’t have to be, but I’m sure Jedi could teach you a thing or to about them. He has put the time in behind an slide-mounted RDS.I am a huge fan of RDS on handguns; I only own two handguns, they are identical, and thus both sport slide-mounted RMRs. I am merely slightly disagreeing with the premise, and strongly disagreeing that Jedlinski's opinion is all that worthwhile.

[ghostly]

Yes, but one would think that knowing how to shoot with a slide-mounted RDS would be a pretty important component of CO in USPSA. Anyway, my point was, that's the only thing notable about Jedlinski, that he does quite well in CO. Other than that, he does not have any stand-out skills or accomplishments.

Ah, but there-in lies the problem: what people carry doesn't necessarily mean they shoot the best with it. Raw shooting is a small component of self-defense and mil/LE.

I never stated it was exclusive to those that have served. My point was that Jedlinski has no other qualifications; if he had served and was also a great competition shooter, I could see why you would choose him as an SME whose choice of carry should have an influence; if he has been a long-time major shooting instructor and a great competition shooter, I'd also give it some consideration, depending on the type of instruction. Etc. Also, I already stated that TGO is an SME, and he never served, either; nor has Rehn, who specifically states that the RDS is slower than irons at short, typical self-defense ranges.

I am a huge fan of RDS on handguns; I only own two handguns, they are identical, and thus both sport slide-mounted RMRs. I am merely slightly disagreeing with the premise, and strongly disagreeing that Jedlinski's opinion is all that worthwhile.

If you wanting disagree with that, start a thread, you’ve cluttered this one up enough with irrelevant information.

I don’t know Rehn, however if he’s slower, sounds like a training issue that he hasn’t devoted himself to the platform.

My experience is outlined in the thread as well as the OP’s. Seems all that dedicate themselves are faster while the those that don’t are slower. What some dude on or any dude on re internet thinks about it or what an “SME” thinks doesn’t change quantifiable data.


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[Defaultmp3]

I don’t know Rehn, however if he’s slower, sounds like a training issue that he hasn’t devoted himself to the platform.Again, Rehn is the #1 ranked carry optic shooter in the world according to USPSA qualifiers, and #11 in the world to production; something tells me he has devoted himself to the platform if he was able to be the top ranked GM in CO, of which there's only 3. That is why I disagree that an RMR is always faster than irons as long as you train right, because multiple high performing competitive shooters have embraced slide-mounted optics still agree that under certain conditions, the optic is still slower, particularly for something with as small an FOV as the RMR. Hell, even Dr. Gary Roberts, one of the big original proponents of the RDS, has stated before that he was a bit slower with the RDS than irons at certain ranges. That's why I disagree: because there's plenty of skilled shooters that have found the slide-mounted RDS to be slower, even after significant effort. I don't believe it's universal, and that for some people, myself included, the RDS will be faster than irons, but it would be foolish to proclaim that the slide-mounted RDS, particularly the RMR, will always be faster at all distances for all dedicated shooters.

[ghostly]

The irony, most all RMR equipped pistols also have irons.


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[26 Inf]

Classifying someone as a SME is kind of subjective and depends on each individuals perspective.

To me an SME is someone who has knowledge about the subject, and has the ability to explain or instruct the nuances of the subject.

The idea is not that they are the Sun Source of knowledge, but, rather, have taken the time to delve into the subject to understand it's intricacies more than the average person.

Your status as a subject matter expert status can also be based on the audience you are is addressing. Courts call SME's 'expert witnesses.' I've been called as an expert witness on subjects ranging from officer involved shootings and other uses of force to officer safety issues inherent in allowing an Indian tribe to produce and issue their own license plates. While I like to think I hold my own, and I've been told more than once that I do, what it boiled down to was at those times I was educating folks on the subject, I just knew more about those subjects than anyone in the room, not everyone in the world. In the realm of SME's who are professional expert witnesses, I'm quite happy to admit that if I was allowed in the room it would be at the rear.

Many of us on this forum would rightfully be considered SME's on the function and usage of the M4 carbine if we were talking to a civic group. Probably not so much if we were speaking at the International Association of Patrol Rifle Armorers.

So. I think most anyone you guys have talked about is a SME.

JMO

[SeriousStudent]

Stop.

Ghostly, or should I call you by the name you were last banned under - tylerw02?

It's a bad idea to create a troll account after you have been banned for doing just what you are doing now - constant bickering and arguing.

It's an even worse idea to come back and do the same tired behavior that got you banned. Do us all a favor and do not come back next time.

[MDFA]

I'd like to see the RMR G19 become more widespread. Everybody like to post sexy photos of their chest rig and AR with nice optics, and then they have an iron-sighted G19 with one spare mag kind of hanging out in the shadows like the ugly kid nobody wants to be friends with.

It would be cool if every gun guy out and about had a concealed RMR G19 AIWB and was switched-on ready-to-go with it like they are with a carbine.

50307

Will This Work? I do IWB it. And I carry 2-17 round spare mags.
Be Safe
MDFA

[MSparks909]

My .02 as a random internet gun enthusiast...I find RDS pistols to really start benefitting the shooter past 10-15 yards and when you’re shooting slower than ~.35-.50 splits. Can you shoot a RDS pistol faster than that and/or closer? Absolutely. But I think irons are a lot easier to track when shooting fast drills closer than ~10Y. To me, when I run a Bill Drill with my RDS pistols, the dot turns into almost a straight red line as I track it up and down. It’s easier for me to track irons at speed. YMMV. However for precision shots past ~15 yards, the RDS really comes into its own.