View Full Version : Odin works pistol buffer tube vs BCM pistol buffer tube.
heavygunner8
10-15-17, 22:30
The Odin works has the extra stop to make the sig tac brace not move back and forth or side to side during firing, but it is 6061 where as the BCM is 7075 but doesn’t have the stop to make the brace slide around. I’ve linked examples of both below. Any comments and thoughts are appreciated.
Bcm: https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-PISTOL-Receiver-Extension-Buffer-Tube-Kit-f-p/bcm-pistol-re-kit.htm
Odin works: https://www.odinworks.com/Stabilizing_Brace_Pistol_Buffer_Tube_p/acc-sb-pt.htm
heavygunner8
10-15-17, 22:53
I’m planning on building a pistol with the Daniel defense mk18 upper. Would I run into any issues using the Odin works pistol buffer tube with sprinco blue buffer spring and an H2 buffer weight?
I don't own any AR pistols so i can't comment on the potential benefits of certain tube designs over others. However, regardless of the presence of various design advantages, i would never consider running a carbine receiver extension that wasn't 7075 aluminum.
Corycop25 and I were comparing notes about running shorty ARs with A5 REs and the Sprinco green spring. Get the VLTOR A5 pistol RE, 5 oz A5 buffer and green spring.
https://www.vltor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/RE-PA5.png
https://www.vltor.com/shop/accessories-and-parts/re-pa5-vltor-a5-pistol-tube/
heavygunner8
10-16-17, 00:52
Corycop25 and I were comparing notes about running shorty ARs with A5 REs and the Sprinco green spring. Get the VLTOR A5 pistol RE, 5 oz A5 buffer and green spring.
https://www.vltor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/RE-PA5.png
https://www.vltor.com/shop/accessories-and-parts/re-pa5-vltor-a5-pistol-tube/
nice, i like the protruding ring to stop the pistol brace from moving forward on this one.
https://www.opticsplanet.com/vltor-a5-pistol-kit.html
I found them on optics planet in stock. Pretty expensive for a kit with no castle nut and end plate. Any recommendation on which castle nut and end plate to go with? the buffer weight is 5.3 OZ it says, is that good to go for the MK18 even if I want to attach suppressor later?
Edit: never mind, the description says the lock nut and lock plate is included.
heavygunner8
10-16-17, 01:19
Would the BCM pistol buffer tube kit with H2 buffer weight work well for the mk18, if I go that route instead?
If the gas port isn't too big, the A5 should work fine. Cory has a 12.5" suppressed with the A5, 5.3oz buffer and Sprinco green spring and says recoil is nice and soft.
I have an 11.5" suppressed Colt. With the carbine RE and H buffer, recoil was sharp. Changing to the A5 RE 5.3 oz buffer took the sting out of it, but I'm going to try the green spring. It should help even more.
I have another suppressed AR shorty (a pistol I call the Wolf Pup) with a carbine length RE and H buffer. It uses an adjustable gas block and it's a soft shooter. I dropped it on the A5 lower and it shoots even better. Enough that I plan to get the VLTOR A5 pistol RE for it.
Would the BCM pistol buffer tube kit with H2 buffer weight work well for the mk18, if I go that route instead?
I think you'll be happier with the A5. It just makes things a little smoother. The more I push the envelope with short barrels and suppressors and play around with tuning, the more noticeable the advantages of the A5 become. It's better starting point.
heavygunner8
10-16-17, 02:03
Thank you for the recommendation. I think I will go with the BCM tube kit for now. I read that DD sells their mk18 sbrs with an H buffer, so I figured the H2 should be fine. I’ll test it and see how it feels if things doesn’t go well, I will definitely go the vltor a5 route. I think for pistol brace the KAK shockwave blade pistol brace seems like a good choice. It has a screw on the bottom to tighten the bolt, so that the brace doesn’t move around due to recoil. The ATF recently clarified shouldering a pistol brace isn’t a crime anymore, so that’s a relief lol.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-16-17, 07:17
I don't own an AR pistol, so hopefully this is relevant, but I am under the impression that pistol lengths eat through parts like extractors really fast. So I would try to get the best made parts possible. I've heard bad stories about 6061, but it was all hearsay, so maybe those bad stories were just BS. Odin is a solid company, I'm sure the part would run fine.. Personally I would opt for the BCM given it is 7075.
Here is a quote I read.
6061 is half the strength of 7075. Its cheaper and easier to work with and tools last longer. That's why companies want to use it.
Commercial tubes are THICKER to compensate for the fact they are generally made of the lesser alloy.
Tru milspec is the small size AND 7075.
ETA: By pistol, I mean pistol length gas system. Also, if your barrel is 10'' or longer I would go for carbine gas length over pistol length.
I think for pistol brace the KAK shockwave blade pistol brace seems like a good choice.
The Shockwave has a thin fin to put against your shoulder. It's going to get uncomfortable quick.
I use the SB Tactical SOB. It has an internal stop, so it won't move forward under recoil. I used the Galil version, so I had to wrap the RE with gaffer's tape so the brace would fit tightly, but it's been worth the money and effort. It's a bit short with a carbine RE but very usable. LOP will be better with the A5 RE. With a rifle RE, it's just too long.
The AR version is available at Midway- https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018083814/sb-tactical-sob-pistol-stabilizing-brace-ar-15
This is what it looks like on the Wolf Pup with the carbine length RE. Click on the thumbnail to view larger photo
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The Shockwave has a thin fin to put against your shoulder. It's going to get uncomfortable quick.
No it doesn't & no it doesn't :cool:
The Shockwave is thin and hard. Yes, it's going to get uncomfortable quick. Been There. Done That.
https://cdn1.lockerdome.com/uploads/49f08f55bbe5f3123b2a94521e213827055e8bd41a71956f40633c0315e786e1_large
Diamondback
10-16-17, 12:33
I've got the Vltor kit on its way from Dvor (OpticsPlanet subsidiary; 20% off FTW!) for my own pistolized-Mk 18 build, though mine's being set up with its Blade ratcheted as far forward as possible. (It's on there not so much as a forearm brace, since I have an AFG/thumbrest combo set up that lock really tightly with the support hand, as to break up the "gun" outline if the thing prints in my laptop case. Yes, I carry a BIG laptop... weighs more than a complete mil-spec M4 and all its accessories in the factory shipping box too.) I may even end up installing the Blade backward, depending how the lines go... or removing it entirely since I'm a southpaw and the tube needs to clear my forearm in the drawstroke.
titsonritz
10-16-17, 12:59
Corycop25 and I were comparing notes about running shorty ARs with A5 REs and the Sprinco green spring. Get the VLTOR A5 pistol RE, 5 oz A5 buffer and green spring.
https://www.vltor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/RE-PA5.png
https://www.vltor.com/shop/accessories-and-parts/re-pa5-vltor-a5-pistol-tube/
This is the setup I am using on my Kino "pistol" along with a LAW folder and Tail Hook stabilizer.
How is it working for you? Cory says his has virtually no recoil
Hopefully, I'll save you some time and tell you to just get the A5 system. Hands down, some of the best money spent IMO.
Thank you for the recommendation. I think I will go with the BCM tube kit for now. I read that DD sells their mk18 sbrs with an H buffer, so I figured the H2 should be fine. I’ll test it and see how it feels if things doesn’t go well, I will definitely go the vltor a5 route. I think for pistol brace the KAK shockwave blade pistol brace seems like a good choice. It has a screw on the bottom to tighten the bolt, so that the brace doesn’t move around due to recoil. The ATF recently clarified shouldering a pistol brace isn’t a crime anymore, so that’s a relief lol.
Would the BCM pistol buffer tube kit with H2 buffer weight work well for the mk18, if I go that route instead?
The H2 will be too light with a can. Go H3 or as most have stated, the A5 is the best route.
titsonritz
10-16-17, 16:14
How is it working for you? Cory says his has virtually no recoil
I agree, very mild recoil with the A5H2/Sprinco Green, which is my typical setup, but I pick up an A5H3 for shits and giggles to run through my various A5's to check it out but have made it out to the range yet.
I have wondered for a while, is it better to use an a5 buffer system, h3 buffer for running suppressed or do an adj. gas block? What about both? I have a5 on a couple of my rifles, but would never put it on my pistol upper as it is against the law. I seem to remember something a long time ago from C4grant that he ran a LMT advanced carrier, adj, gas block and a5 RE on his silenced SBR. I just don't know what the benefit would be, one over the other. (a5 vs adj. gas block)
Shiz -- If set properly, the AGB with a lighter/lightest buffer would be ideal. Less reciprocating mass equals very fast follow up shots (this is the 3 gunners "secret"). If ultimate reliability is the goal, I would be inclined not to do this, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be tuned perfectly reliable for certain ammo.
Diamondback
10-16-17, 16:59
I have wondered for a while, is it better to use an a5 buffer system, h3 buffer for running suppressed or do an adj. gas block? What about both? I have a5 on a couple of my rifles, but would never put it on my pistol upper as it is against the law. I seem to remember something a long time ago from C4grant that he ran a LMT advanced carrier, adj, gas block and a5 RE on his silenced SBR. I just don't know what the benefit would be, one over the other. (a5 vs adj. gas block)
Shiz, that's why you get an A5 Pistol Tube that can't take a stock.
Were I not looking at fixed FSP's for most of the pistol builds I'm looking at (which are basically barely-legal pistol lower/SBR upper combinations; even an unpinned 14.5" M4 can be legal as long as you never put a stock on it, and once over 26" OAL it falls into the same Other Firearm class as the Remmy TAC-14 and Mossy Shockwave where you can mount a VFG without it becoming NFA AOW) I'd be inclined to go with both actually.
stevenravenscroft
10-16-17, 17:24
I'm runing a bcm pistol tube and a kak brace with a couple raps of tape. 3 or 400 rounds and it hasnt moved nor does it hurt my shoulder at all. Thats with a T shirt on and the carbine buffer that came with it. Nees to change that.
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titsonritz
10-16-17, 18:09
I'm runing a bcm pistol tube and a kak brace with a couple raps of tape. 3 or 400 rounds and it hasnt moved nor does it hurt my shoulder at all. Thats with a T shirt on and the carbine buffer that came with it. Nees to change that.
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It is my understanding you are not suppose to alter a brace in anyway that makes it more shoulder-able.
stevenravenscroft
10-16-17, 18:22
It is my understanding you are not suppose to alter a brace in anyway that makes it more shoulder-able.
The bcm buffer tube is way smaller than the kak so i put tape around the tube to get it up to the inside size of the kak brace. I dont think its a big deal
heavygunner8
10-16-17, 18:22
Hopefully, I'll save you some time and tell you to just get the A5 system. Hands down, some of the best money spent IMO.
What's a good place to buy the vltor a5 kit? everywhere I'm looking, they're all sold out.
heavygunner8
10-16-17, 18:25
The Shockwave has a thin fin to put against your shoulder. It's going to get uncomfortable quick.
I use the SB Tactical SOB. It has an internal stop, so it won't move forward under recoil. I used the Galil version, so I had to wrap the RE with gaffer's tape so the brace would fit tightly, but it's been worth the money and effort. It's a bit short with a carbine RE but very usable. LOP will be better with the A5 RE. With a rifle RE, it's just too long.
The AR version is available at Midway- https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018083814/sb-tactical-sob-pistol-stabilizing-brace-ar-15
This is what it looks like on the Wolf Pup with the carbine length RE. Click on the thumbnail to view larger photo
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I'll look into this instead then. I was thinking about the shockwave fin been so skinny, it would probably dig into your shoulder.
titsonritz
10-16-17, 18:25
The bcm buffer tube is way smaller than the kak so i put tape around the tube to get it up to the inside size of the kak brace. I dont think its a big deal
Gotcha, I thought you were talking about taping up the slim, hard edges. What you are talking is not an issue.
heavygunner8
10-16-17, 18:26
As far as muzzle flashiders, since I wanted to have the option to add a suppressor at a later time, I was thinking of going with the "surefire 3 prong flash hider". This is a good flash hider for AR pistols and is a mount for the surefire SOCOM suppressor. Any one think this is good?
stevenravenscroft
10-16-17, 18:41
Gotcha, I thought you were talking about taping up the slim, hard edges. What you are talking is not an issue.
I didnt say anything wasnt an issue. Just the tape around the tube to bring it up to size so the kak wasnt tilted on the smaller size buffer tube is all I did. Looks good.
Diamondback
10-16-17, 19:46
What's a good place to buy the vltor a5 kit? everywhere I'm looking, they're all sold out.
For the crowd's benefit, heavy and I have exchanged a few PM's but OpticsPlanet lists the A5 pistol kit as in-stock as I type this.
heavygunner8
10-17-17, 01:16
I'm gonna take y'all's advice and order the Vltor A5 Pistol buffer kit for my MK18 Ar pistol. I found it on optics planet here: https://www.opticsplanet.com/vltor-a5-pistol-kit.html
I hope everything goes well. Optics planet is making me wait 2 - 3 weeks before ship out, sadly.
i see some recommendations for a sprinco green buffer spring to replace the buffer spring in the kit, is this still necessary with the kit I just bought? Will the above work just fine?
I'll look into this instead then. I was thinking about the shockwave fin been so skinny, it would probably dig into your shoulder.
Must be different for different folks. Mine never bothered me. I actually think it's quite comfortable. For perspective though, I've only run 200rds at a time. If you were taking a class or something, it maybe different.
As far as muzzle flashiders, since I wanted to have the option to add a suppressor at a later time, I was thinking of going with the "surefire 3 prong flash hider". This is a good flash hider for AR pistols and is a mount for the surefire SOCOM suppressor. Any one think this is good?
The s3p is a Socom mount and flashhider. They are around $120. The non Socom mounts are $50-$60. The s3p is very effective at reducing flash. If you are using a shot barrel and it will be suppressed all the time, people report the brake to act as a sacrificial baffle.
If the gas port isn't too big, the A5 should work fine. Cory has a 12.5" suppressed with the A5, 5.3oz buffer and Sprinco green spring and says recoil is nice and soft.
I have an 11.5" suppressed Colt. With the carbine RE and H buffer, recoil was sharp. Changing to the A5 RE 5.3 oz buffer took the sting out of it, but I'm going to try the green spring. It should help even more.
I have another suppressed AR shorty (a pistol I call the Wolf Pup) with a carbine length RE and H buffer. It uses an adjustable gas block and it's a soft shooter. I dropped it on the A5 lower and it shoots even better. Enough that I plan to get the VLTOR A5 pistol RE for it.
I think you'll be happier with the A5. It just makes things a little smoother. The more I push the envelope with short barrels and suppressors and play around with tuning, the more noticeable the advantages of the A5 become. It's better starting point.
Is the green spring from Voltor or Springco?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sprinco.
Is the green spring from Voltor or Springco?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When I ordered an A5-H3 buffer from Optics Planet it was on backorder with a couple MONTHS of lead time. About two weeks later I got a package direct from Vltor. Happy, happy! I hope that is what will happen for you. Also, it was a silver colored buffer, and not black like the pictures show.
I'm gonna take y'all's advice and order the Vltor A5 Pistol buffer kit for my MK18 Ar pistol. I found it on optics planet here: https://www.opticsplanet.com/vltor-a5-pistol-kit.html
I hope everything goes well. Optics planet is making me wait 2 - 3 weeks before ship out, sadly.
i see some recommendations for a sprinco green buffer spring to replace the buffer spring in the kit, is this still necessary with the kit I just bought? Will the above work just fine?
ETA: I've tried all sorts of springs and the Vltor is pretty much the "softest" shooting but it depends on other factors like gas port, ammo, etc.. I would recommend trying it out for a while before buying a different spring. Sprinco makes some really fine springs. I've used a few carbine length blues and had nothing but good things to say about them. I have a green in my 20" rifle, so I'm on board. However, if you are the type that just has to have it all, get a green (and pick up a 5-coil extractor spring while you are at it--super strong!).
I have wondered for a while, is it better to use an a5 buffer system, h3 buffer for running suppressed or do an adj. gas block? What about both?
A well tuned AR is a balance of proper reciprocating mass, spring rate and gas flow.
I have a5 on a couple of my rifles, but would never put it on my pistol upper as it is against the law.
It's only against the law if you use a buttstock.
I seem to remember something a long time ago from C4grant that he ran a LMT advanced carrier, adj, gas block and a5 RE on his silenced SBR. I just don't know what the benefit would be, one over the other. (a5 vs adj. gas block)
Grant did not use an adjustable gas block. He played with custom gas port diameters until he got the functioning he wanted. His shorty would eject but not lock back unsuppressed and would eject and lock back suppressed.
Reciprocating mass, spring rate and gas glow are all important to the function of an AR and all three need to be addressed when tuning. The advantage of finding that balance is having an AR that has softer recoil reliable function and is easier on parts such as the extractor. It's not difficult to find that balance as we know that the AR runs good with buffers from H to Rifle and have proven springs readily available. Gas flow is a matter of using the right diameter gas port (the preferred method) or an adjustable gas block (the easy button).
As far as muzzle flashiders, since I wanted to have the option to add a suppressor at a later time, I was thinking of going with the "surefire 3 prong flash hider". This is a good flash hider for AR pistols and is a mount for the surefire SOCOM suppressor. Any one think this is good?
Whatever muzzle device you pick, make sure it's going to be compatible with the suppressor you'll be using. I'm using direct thread mounts to save weight.
A good read while you wait for your parts.... https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?190748-The-Vltor-A5-System
heavygunner8
10-17-17, 12:11
When I ordered an A5-H3 buffer from Optics Planet it was on backorder with a couple MONTHS of lead time. About two weeks later I got a package direct from Vltor. Happy, happy! I hope that is what will happen for you. Also, it was a silver colored buffer, and not black like the pictures show.
ETA: I've tried all sorts of springs and the Vltor is pretty much the "softest" shooting but it depends on other factors like gas port, ammo, etc.. I would recommend trying it out for a while before buying a different spring. Sprinco makes some really fine springs. I've used a few carbine length blues and had nothing but good things to say about them. I have a green in my 20" rifle, so I'm on board. However, if you are the type that just has to have it all, get a green (and pick up a 5-coil extractor spring while you are at it--super strong!).
It says mine will come with the A5H2 buffer. Which is 5.3 OZ, which is essentially an H3 buffer. Should be good to go for the MK18 right? I plan on getting the surefire SOCOM suppressor at a later date.
Shiz, that's why you get an A5 Pistol Tube that can't take a stock.
right, I haven't decided if that will be my route yet though. I want to make the best choice, research before I buy something. Wondering if a good adj. gas block will be enough. Not a lot of info out there on the a5 that is not anecdotal. rereading Grant's thread as I sit.
It's only against the law if you use a buttstock.
From my understanding, putting a carbine RE on a pistol is constructive intent. Even if you don't have a stock. Correct me if I am wrong.
Yes and no. A5H2 is the standard weight and more analog to a mil-spec H2, even though the weights are not the same (the rifle length spring rate plays an important factor). I believe they numbered them to more closely correlate to their mil-spec counterparts to be easier to decide which to start with. I am sure it will work for you but I cannot be sure if it will be optimum for your setup.
It says mine will come with the A5H2 buffer. Which is 5.3 OZ, which is essentially an H3 buffer. Should be good to go for the MK18 right? I plan on getting the surefire SOCOM suppressor at a later date.
heavygunner8
10-17-17, 12:38
Yes and no. A5H2 is the standard weight and more analog to a mil-spec H2, even though the weights are not the same (the rifle length spring rate plays an important factor). I believe they numbered them to more closely correlate to their mil-spec counterparts to be easier to decide which to start with. I am sure it will work for you but I cannot be sure if it will be optimum for your setup.
How much of a different is there between the A5H2 and the A5H3? So optimum is A5H3 I assume? I wonder if optics planet can swap out the A5H2 for the A5H3 for me.
or just replace the A5 buffer spring with the sprinco green spring and keep the A5H2? would this accomplish the same thing? that seems to be the recommendation from mistywolf.
I depends on factors unique to your platform... ammo, weather, sun/moon alignment lol, etc. etc.. Ok, if I was a betting man, I would say H3 would be a better starting point (especially with a can). Someone else can sign off on this, but probably H4 would work best with a can and NATO pressure ammo. YMMV. A5H2 is a good general purpose do-all buffer. You just might notice some forward-oriented ejection and a little more sharper punch in felt recoil. It won't be horrible. I run a A5H3 in my 16" BCM mid and it will run Wolf steel all day*, if that means anything to you. The kit saves you a few bucks, but I prefer to buy the components now that I have enough parts to try out on new uppers before I buy for them.
How much of a different is there between the A5H2 and the A5H3? So optimum is A5H3 I assume? I wonder if optics planet can swap out the A5H2 for the A5H3 for me.
ETA: *unsuppressed
If I can rest some of your concerns, if you were going to go with a standard carbine RE with mil-spec H2, the A5 system WILL be better (maybe even MUCH better). So, don't sweat the buffer weight until you try it with your rig first. Who knows, it might be just right.
Thank you for the recommendation. I think I will go with the BCM tube kit for now. I read that DD sells their mk18 sbrs with an H buffer, so I figured the H2 should be fine. I’ll test it and see how it feels if things doesn’t go well, I will definitely go the vltor a5 route. I think for pistol brace the KAK shockwave blade pistol brace seems like a good choice. It has a screw on the bottom to tighten the bolt, so that the brace doesn’t move around due to recoil. The ATF recently clarified shouldering a pistol brace isn’t a crime anymore, so that’s a relief lol.
right, I haven't decided if that will be my route yet though. I want to make the best choice, research before I buy something. Wondering if a good adj. gas block will be enough. Not a lot of info out there on the a5 that is not anecdotal. rereading Grant's thread as I sit.
My experience- A shorty barrel with an over sized gas port will need a way to reduce gas flow. I chose to use an adjustable gas block. A heavier buffer will slow the carrier, but gas flow is still excessive. NOTE: When I installed the Omega on the 6933, it had the factory H buffer. Not only was recoil sharp, but the gas block got so hot after just 40-60 rounds at a slow rate of fire, the handguards were almost too hot to hold. With the same model handguards on other ARs, they only got a little warm doing drills, rapid fire and farting around with a binary trigger. After installing the A5, recoil was softer and the handguards didn't get as hot.
I have an AR pistol with the same 11.5" length barrel as the 6933 running a suppressor with a carbine type RE, H buffer and the stiffer spring that comes with the Franklin Armory binary trigger. It uses the SLR adjustable gas block. I've got it tuned so it just locks back. If I close the metering screw one more click, it will eject, but not lock back. Recoil is nice and soft. But it runs even smoother on the A5 equipped lower. Currently, it ejects but doesn't lock back. The gas block will need to be opened a click or two before I declare the experiment a success.
Getting back the 6933- Recoil is softer with the A5 RE 5.3 oz buffer and VLTOR spring. Still, it's harsher than I'd like, so I'm going to try the Sprinco green spring. The 6933 upper does not have an adjustable gas block. If the green spring doesn't recoil like I'd like, I'm going to see if a BRT restrictor screw can be fitted to the factory gas block.
From my understanding, putting a carbine RE on a pistol is constructive intent. Even if you don't have a stock. Correct me if I am wrong.
They sell separate lowers with stocks. If having a carbine or rifle RE on a pistol lower was constructive intent, there are a lot of makers and vendors violating the law with consent of the BATF
i see some recommendations for a sprinco green buffer spring to replace the buffer spring in the kit, is this still necessary with the kit I just bought? Will the above work just fine?
The spring that comes with the Vltor kit will work fine. I use the Sprinco spring because my rifle is full auto. My other rifles with the A5 kit use the standard Vltor rifle spring. I have replaced springs in the past and I just make sure the spring is a Vltor or Colt rifle spring.
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