View Full Version : How Do You Hold Your Rifle? Recoil Management
Dr. Bullseye
10-20-17, 20:56
I have been shooting for less than 2 years, no previous experience. I have a carbine length AR with a vertical post. What concerns me is recoil management. I have discovered how bad I am. In looking at videos of rock solid shooters, they seem to prefer the C-grip. Some utilize a vertical grip partway, choke up on it, and wrap the thumb over. There seem to be three or four styles, magazine grip, standard (hand under hand guard), vertical post grip, and C-grip either with a vertical post or without.
I have a muzzle break and a USGI sling but maybe those are separate issues.
What type of grip do you use for recoil management?
5.56 Bonded SP
10-23-17, 19:50
Hold your rifle tight into your shoulder, use a proper cheek weld. Use your support hand and pull the rifle into your shoulder.
Forget about C-clamping, that is just a bunch of dumb youtube operator crap. It won't help you anymore than actually gripping your rifle properly.
Try shooting some actual large caliber rifles, 308, 30-06, then you will understand how to mitigate recoil and hold a rifle for recoil management. Once you shoot a 223 after the 223 will feel like a bb gun in regards to recoil. Forget about fancy muzzle brakes, and forget about how youtube operators c-clamp their guns, just grip your rifle comfortably and firmly, and find what works for you.
In regards to ''tactical operator crap''
If you are right handed, try to tuck in your right elbow so it doesn't stick out like a chicken wing, and vice versa if you are left handed. That way you make yourself a smaller target.
Also, square up your feet about shoulder width apart. Lean forward or center yourself, try not to lean back because guys that lean back while holding rifles and pistols look like chicks that don't know how to shoot ( and also makes for very poor recoil management ).
No offense to anyone, hope this helps.
I shoot "C clamp" grip with a KAG handstop.
It works well.
I'll add, the scenario dictates shooting style.
Barricade shooting negates use of C clamp as example.
Outlander Systems
10-23-17, 20:10
Wrong. WRONG.
The intent is to support the weight with your skeletal structure and not to muscle the thing.
I hate the internet.
That way you make yourself a smaller target.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-23-17, 20:11
Wrong. WRONG.
The intent is to support the weight with your skeletal structure and not to muscle the thing.
I hate the internet.
Ah, I didn't know that. Thanks.
Outlander Systems
10-23-17, 20:13
Also, the entire purpose of using an isoceles stance and keeping the rifle tucked down in front of meat is to counter rotational torque on subsequent strings.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-23-17, 20:14
I have been shooting for less than 2 years, no previous experience. I have a carbine length AR with a vertical post. What concerns me is recoil management. I have discovered how bad I am. In looking at videos of rock solid shooters, they seem to prefer the C-grip. Some utilize a vertical grip partway, choke up on it, and wrap the thumb over. There seem to be three or four styles, magazine grip, standard (hand under hand guard), vertical post grip, and C-grip either with a vertical post or without.
I have a muzzle break and a USGI sling but maybe those are separate issues.
What type of grip do you use for recoil management?
You’re having issues controlling recoil with a 5.56 rifle that has a muzzle brake? Lawd have mercy.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Best+modern+AR+15+shooting+grip
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5.56 Bonded SP
10-23-17, 20:21
Also, the entire purpose of using an isoceles stance and keeping the rifle tucked down in front of meat is to counter rotational torque on subsequent strings.
Lol. All I was told during training numerous times was to use the isosceles stance was because that way if we got shot we would be utilizing the most space of our body armor, and they discouraged the weaver stance because it opens up your armpit where the armor doesn't cover. Hopefully that makes sense, just repeating what I was told to do. Thanks for the technical data points, news to me :)
I am not saying Isosceles or weaver is better, just repeating what I was told to do.
Inkslinger
10-23-17, 20:27
Also, the entire purpose of using an isoceles stance and keeping the rifle tucked down in front of meat is to counter rotational torque on subsequent strings.
I wouldn’t say it’s the “entire” purpose. It’s probably top of the list. Keeping any unwanted holes going front to back instead of side to side is a pretty good reason to me.
Forget about C-clamping, that is just a bunch of dumb youtube operator crap. It won't help you anymore than actually gripping your rifle properly.
Forget about fancy muzzle brakes, and forget about how youtube operators c-clamp their guns, just grip your rifle comfortably and firmly, and find what works for you.
In regards to ''tactical operator crap''
Bold statements, which are at odds with some significant trainers and institutions.
Inkslinger
10-23-17, 20:45
Bold statements, which are at odds with some significant trainers and institutions.
Absolutely. It’s simply more ergonomically efficient. Wrapping your hand entirely around something gives you better control than holding half of it.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-23-17, 20:56
Bold statements, which are at odds with some significant trainers and institutions.
True, however I think focusing on the basics is going to benefit him much more than C clamping. There are lots of guns that can't be C clamped as well.
True, however I think focusing on the basics is going to benefit him much more than C clamping. There are lots of guns that can't be C clamped as well.
Then I suggest having a substantive discussion with merits, based upon your training, experience, and subject matter knowledge, rather than calling a lengthy list of GTG others "youtube operators." And you have a PM.
militarymoron
10-23-17, 21:21
Wrong. WRONG.
The intent is to support the weight with your skeletal structure and not to muscle the thing.
Shooting a rifle standing offhand requires the use of muscles. Without them, your skeletal structure would be prone.
Lol. All I was told during training numerous times was to use the isosceles stance was because that way if we got shot we would be utilizing the most space of our body armor, and they discouraged the weaver stance because it opens up your armpit where the armor doesn't cover. Hopefully that makes sense, just repeating what I was told to do. Thanks for the technical data points, news to me :)
I am not saying Isosceles or weaver is better, just repeating what I was told to do.
So you were trained to base your marksmanship around the marksmanship of someone you're shooting as opposed to what makes you most efficient?
This type of thinking ranks up there with dudes who transition to their support shoulder inside of a house for "cover" when they're shooting behind drywall. Guys focusing their doctrine on the structural integrity of contractor grade drywall as opposed to clearing their primary+secondary sectors of fire, moving to their points of domination, and taming savages.
Because the last time I checked, and please correct me if I'm wrong...but nobody has ever won a gunfight by scaring someone to death. You absolutely will win with well placed shots delivered as many times as needed.
Whatever technique allows you to accomplish this efficiently is the answer.
Shooting a rifle standing offhand requires the use of muscles. Without them, your skeletal structure would be prone.
I believe he means natural point of aim and its benefit of not having to muscle the gun on target.
Dr. Bullseye
10-23-17, 22:49
Thanks guys. I see this is a controversial subject. I do not use the full frontal, armored up, stance. I have a 16 inch barrel with the standard gas block/F front sight post so I am not reaching for my life way out there. My elbow is bent because it has to be bent. Turning the elbow out and down is not going to be an option for this rifle unless I extend the stock out a mile. Right now it is at the first click. I am 5'9". I have a front post directly under the front sight post so what I am experimenting with now is choking up on the post toward the barrel, with two or three fingers on the post, and wrapping my over the top of the quad rail or hooking my thumb over the left side rail near the top and holding it down.
In complaining about my recoil management, I mean the second shot of a quick double tap. I want it on target quicker.
Holding the rifle up under the standard hand protectors which came with the rifle seemed the least effective. The front post was better, and just all around better for handling and moving from target to target. But those tier one operators on the internet certainly make an impressive argument for the C grip. I ordered an ERGO hand break today to compare it and that style with the front post shooting I have been doing.
Vertical foregrip (VFG) is better term than front post, it took me a minute to figure out what you were talking about. Recoil control is just as much about your entire body's stance as it is grip on the gun. I like a short VFG with a hybrid grip as you've described, where my thumb is over the top, index and middle are on the rail, and ring and pinky are on the grip. You don't necessarily have to shrug your shoulder up high, but it helps a lot to push it forward towards your target. Having the stock extended as far as reasonably comfortable will likely give you better leverage on the gun and you want to really press your cheek into the stock, don't just set it on top. Finally, I'm all about that power iso stance that some awesome LEOs have taught me out here. I think Jon Chapman mentions the same technique in one of his Panteao videos but your firing side foot is dropped back a bit behind your support foot, and the knee is locked out. Load your support knee by leaning into it a bit. It's pretty damn solid.
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Outlander Systems
10-24-17, 09:23
Correct. In getting your frame upunna a gun it makes supporting the weapon easier, ie. less muscle use/more scaffolding. It also allows for NPOA. Absolutely. At no point was I implying that a skeleton without muscles or ligaments on the ground was the ideal shooting technique. :rolleyes:
I believe he means natural point of aim and its benefit of not having to muscle the gun on target.
You're not going to mitigate follow up shots walking/rotational torque using a bladed-off stance.
Leave the Camp Perry shit at home.
The shooter below has maximum meat behind the gun.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZgDRXha20I/maxresdefault.jpg
If you're:
Shooting someone in the face
Punching someone in the face
Stabbing someone in the face
The body mechanics are the same. The end.
Thanks guys. I see this is a controversial subject. I do not use the full frontal, armored up, stance. I have a 16 inch barrel with the standard gas block/F front sight post so I am not reaching for my life way out there. My elbow is bent because it has to be bent. Turning the elbow out and down is not going to be an option for this rifle unless I extend the stock out a mile. Right now it is at the first click. I am 5'9". I have a front post directly under the front sight post so what I am experimenting with now is choking up on the post toward the barrel, with two or three fingers on the post, and wrapping my over the top of the quad rail or hooking my thumb over the left side rail near the top and holding it down.
In complaining about my recoil management, I mean the second shot of a quick double tap. I want it on target quicker.
Holding the rifle up under the standard hand protectors which came with the rifle seemed the least effective. The front post was better, and just all around better for handling and moving from target to target. But those tier one operators on the internet certainly make an impressive argument for the C grip. I ordered an ERGO hand break today to compare it and that style with the front post shooting I have been doing.
militarymoron
10-24-17, 10:13
I believe he means natural point of aim and its benefit of not having to muscle the gun on target.
My comment was tongue in cheek/joking :)
I don't think there's any 'natural point of aim' shooting offhand (unsupported position) like there is when kneeling, sitting, or prone (supported positions). But I do think that there will be an optimal body position/stance and grip on the weapon that helps get you on target and stay there with follow up shots.
In the context of this discussion, we're not including the competition shooting technique (the Camp Perry reference that outlander systems mentioned above) where your support arms is tucked into your torso and elbow above the hip bone. When kneeling, sitting or prone, you can find a natural point of aim because your arms (or elbows) will be supported by contact with the knees or ground, so you adjust the position of your skeleton to put you on target. When shooting a carbine offhand in this context, you're relying fully on muscles to support the weight of the weapon and hold it on target. That's why you start to get tired after 30 seconds of holding the rifle on target while standing whereas you can maintain a properly supported position for hours (or until you start cramping up).
I'm a little guy (5' 7", 150 lbs) and what I've learned that has helped me with recoil management (after listening to many different instructors over the past few years) is basically getting a good grip on the weapon, stable stance and body tension. The same applies whether I'm shooting a handgun or carbine. When you look at very new shooters, they're basically just holding the gun out there. Just 'supporting' the weight of the weapon. Sometimes you'll see rifle shooters keep their support hand open, with the handguard just resting in their open palm. That's fine if you're taking one shot at a time, slow fire. Recoil is irrelevant in that situation. Back to the new pistol shooters - you'll often see them take the shot, the pistol jumps in their hands, and their whole body moves. Everything is loosey goosey and wobbly (unless they're instructed properly from the beginning). Same thing with a lot of carbine shooters that are just (supporting) holding their rifles up vs. pulling the rifles into their shoulders and ensuring they have a stable 'base' etc.
One of the examples I was given that made sense to me was of a boxer or martial artist in a relaxed, but ready fighting stance. Body is relaxed, hands are up and ready to move. But once the boxer punches or defends against an incoming punch, all the muscles tense up; all the way from the fists through the arms, shoulders, core and legs. Imagine taking a punch or throwing one with relaxed wrists and body. I was told to manage recoil in a similar manner (keep the grip, core etc tight when you're on target and taking those quick multiple shots) and it made a difference (for me). I look at some older videos of me shooting and I was wiggling all over the place when shooting a .308. A little less so now that I'm a bit more aware.
YMMV of course. Just try varying one thing at a time to see how it affects your follow up shots. Try double tapping at close range with your gut/abs relaxed. Then tense your abs and try it again. Just like you would at the moment you're throwing a punch.
MM,
Agreed on most all of above. I shot you a PM.
... the AR in 5.56 recoils? Huh, new one on me ...:rolleyes:
militarymoron
10-24-17, 11:27
... the AR in 5.56 recoils? Huh, new one on me ...:rolleyes:
Can you tell the difference between shooting a 5.56 AR and a .22 AR? If you can, then that's called 'recoil'. If you can shoot a standard 5.56 AR as quickly and accurately as you can a .22 AR, please share your technique with us. I'd be willing to bet that most members here that can shoot an AR fast can shoot a .22 AR faster; the only difference being 'non-existent' recoil.
I remember once I was at the range with my group of buddies, and talking about brakes, comps etc and some were joking about us 'sissies' and that 'ARs don't have recoil' etc. So, when we got to the friendly one-on-one drills on steel where we'd compete against each other, I broke out my .22 AR upper. Shouts of 'hey that's cheating!' 'cheater' rang out. I asked them (grinning) 'why is it cheating?' and they replied 'that's a .22! it doesn't have any recoil!' and I just laughed and pointed out 'you said neither does your AR. why the crying now?'. My point was made.
I'll throw this challenge out to anyone who says that 'ARs don't have recoil'. Show that you can put 10 rounds at 50 yards offhand on a 8" steel plate with a standard, non-comped/braked AR as fast as you can with a .22 upper and post a vid of it, or report back with the split times.
Couple of things that I’ve noticed in my own shooting is how the rifle is shouldered. In the pic above you can see how the buffer tube is in line with the center of the shoulder vs. above it. With the tube above the shoulder joint, the rifle will want to pivot up more. This means you end up muscling the muzzle down. Not efficient and often you’ll overshoot on the way down and waste time bringing the muzzle up to POA. Lots of wasted time. The other thing is cheek weld and also pressure. Cheek weld is nit only for indexing behind the sighting system. You can also use that downward pressure to help with recoil management. May not be a lot, but it helps.
Take some pics of your stance to see how you’re lining things up. Adjust optic height, stock length... till you can get comfortably into a stance where you have as much meat behind the gun as possible. Then practice the crap out of it. No matter how light or how good of a brake you have physics is physics and stuff will try to move. You will need to develop the strength and timing to manage it. Practice single shots with the focus being on minimizing the sight jump. That way you’re not getting ahead of yourself with the next trigger pull. Try different stances, pressures... till you find what works and then since and repeat till you can do it in your sleep. Then add the second trigger pull.
Eurodriver
10-24-17, 13:28
I'll throw this challenge out to anyone who says that 'ARs don't have recoil'. Show that you can put 10 rounds at 50 yards offhand on a 8" steel plate with a standard, non-comped/braked AR as fast as you can with a .22 upper and post a vid of it, or report back with the split times.
Loan me a 22 upper.
I would gladly take, and probably win, this challenge.
Can you tell the difference between shooting a 5.56 AR and a .22 AR? If you can, then that's called 'recoil'. If you can shoot a standard 5.56 AR as quickly and accurately as you can a .22 AR, please share your technique with us. I'd be willing to bet that most members here that can shoot an AR fast can shoot a .22 AR faster; the only difference being 'non-existent' recoil.
I remember once I was at the range with my group of buddies, and talking about brakes, comps etc and some were joking about us 'sissies' and that 'ARs don't have recoil' etc. So, when we got to the friendly one-on-one drills on steel where we'd compete against each other, I broke out my .22 AR upper. Shouts of 'hey that's cheating!' 'cheater' rang out. I asked them (grinning) 'why is it cheating?' and they replied 'that's a .22! it doesn't have any recoil!' and I just laughed and pointed out 'you said neither does your AR. why the crying now?'. My point was made.
I'll throw this challenge out to anyone who says that 'ARs don't have recoil'. Show that you can put 10 rounds at 50 yards offhand on a 8" steel plate with a standard, non-comped/braked AR as fast as you can with a .22 upper and post a vid of it, or report back with the split times.
Thank you. The AR doesn't recoil much, but its still there. Anyone who says otherwise is trying too hard to sound buff. No one cares.
Loan me a 22 upper.
I would gladly take, and probably win, this challenge.
Dude you need a S&W M&P 15-22. Those things are so damn fun.
militarymoron
10-24-17, 14:48
Loan me a 22 upper.
I would gladly take, and probably win, this challenge.
Why do you think you'd win this challenge? I'm very interested to hear why you're confident that you'd be unable to shoot a .22 AR faster than you can a standard one in this particular challenge - all other things being equal.
OP
In addition to some of the reasons already mentioned, you will see some folks C-clamp their rifle due to equipment they've placed there; such as tape switches, lights/lasers, and such... I kept my TV remote zip tied there for so long, just habit to grip the rifle that way...
Dr. Bullseye
10-24-17, 18:11
Just got back from the range. Wow, what a difference with the C-grip! Recoil was much, much better. This is the biggest one day improvement ever! I feel like a whole different guy---the world is wonderful!
I did shorten up the stock all the way in. My stance was not a blade nor was it full frontal but somewhere in between and leaning a bit forward. This is a ten round state so five paper plates on a pole, two rounds on each and then check on accuracy. Some were very close together, an inch or so at 25 yards. I moved back to 40 yards and was hitting just fine at a speed which is totally acceptable. Even after the second shot, sometimes I just cranked out two more without pause. The stock is mostly on the pec with the shoulder rolling around. There is a whole lot of room here to improve, this was just day one.
One question for you guys: After 60 rounds my thumb could feel the heat---not burning heat but it did make me think how it would feel at 200 rounds. Any tricks here? My first thought was a silicon thumb glove.
Rail covers and normal gloves work fine.
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