View Full Version : To piston..... Or not?
Just dropped the better part of half a months wages on a Colt 6920 and I'm wondering... IS a piston conversion such as, PWS, Adams et.al worth it? Im asking anyone who has personal experience using these types to chime in with their opinions (bohica;)). Any issues with reliability, breakage and parts availability and manufacturer warranty problems, plus any wear and tear issues that are accelerated by using these conversions will be considered in factoring in whether or not I'll spring the extra 400.00 to 500.00 bucks to get it done. Thanks in advance of any help anyone has to offer.
MikeCLeonard
10-09-08, 13:19
I would only think about a piston gun if I was running a rifle under 14.5" in barrel length, doing a lot of suppressed shooting, or running full auto.
Short barrel rifles with silencers and full auto is where piston systems shine. Beyond that, I would just stick with the DI.
I wouldn't bother with a piston system unless I had identified some specific need that I knew a piston would help with -- I.E., wanting to run a suppressed full-auto 10.5"er.
I think that $4-500 would be much better spent on an Aimpoint and mount, or on ammo and mags.
Robb Jensen
10-09-08, 13:34
As already stated piston guns are great for SBRs, shooting suppressed, and full-auto guns. I also believe they are good for people who would shoot 10K+ rounds in one particular AR per year, if you aren't doing any of those things then piston uppers are really just a novelty. Sure they are easier to clean (10min vs 15min), for suppressed and high round count at the range or training they also don't burn off as much lube. No big deal lubing up an AR every few hundred rounds, it takes all of 30 seconds and lube is cheap if not free. I can't remember the last time I actually bought some. 99% of the time at training classes, large 3gun/USPSA matches and at armorers course lube is given to me which is usually Militec-1, WeaponShield or the new Brownells new Friction Defense.
Since ammo prices have gone WAY high I've cut my centerfire rifle shooting by at least 2/3rds. I've been shooting my 10/22 with the Nordic kit quite a lot. It simulates the feel of an AR and is close to the weight of my 10" SBR.
You'll likely introduce more problems by going piston than you'd have running your 6920 the way it is.
Not!
IMO, piston guns are really for the new breed of yuppie suburban commandos.
Well.. It looks like the answer would be no on the conversion. I'll just spend the cash on more important things such as, DD 9.5 FSP Rail, replacement gas block from MI, a good optic and buis set and of course..... More ammo and mags. Thanks for the help guys, the savings alone will probably go into a few carbine courses.:D
Not!
IMO, piston guns are really for the new breed of yuppie suburban commandos.
You're right!
It is like having a BMW or something. You look cool until you get the repair bill.
It's ironic all the bugs they have to work out of a system that's supposed to increase the AR's reliability.
I have a POF 14.5" piston on a registered DIAS! it works flawless! and it runs so much cleaner and cooler!
Accuracy is as good as my regular DI type AR! felt recoil is about the same in FA ...
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/davechng/Guns/P1010149copy.jpg
I would recommend a piston ! for its reliability and ease of maintainance ! of course everything comes with a price!
DaveC!
You're right!
It is like having a BMW or something. You look cool until you get the repair bill.
It's ironic all the bugs they have to work out of a system that's supposed to increase the AR's reliability.
Hey now... I drive a BMW! (motorcycle, that is:D) I resemble that remark;)
I have a POF 14.5" piston on a registered DIAS! it works flawless! and it runs so much cleaner and cooler!
I bet it has relentless reliability! :D Man, you bought into all the marketing hype. To each his own, eh.
Robb Jensen
10-09-08, 16:40
What = 'flawless'?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19307&highlight=flawless
When offering advice on the internet, you should do two things:
1) Post your qualifiers. "I love my XYZ" is an absolutely useless post. It helps nobody, does nothing but strokes your own ego, and chances are you are only actually recommending the only brand/model/example/version of the thing that you have ever even seen in person. Stop it. There is nothing wrong with posting an opinion based largely in ignorance, but own up to it. Say "I bought an XYZ as my first AR and I've put x# of trouble-free rounds through it". Don't say "flawless". Please. For the children.
rightwingmaniac
10-09-08, 18:41
Not!
IMO, piston guns are really for the new breed of yuppie suburban commandos.
yeah your totally right. that must be why special forces and the majority of swat teams want hk 416's huh. damn yuppie commandos.:confused:
IroquoisSnakePlissken
10-09-08, 19:03
RWM has a point. The studs are really diggin' the new indirect impingement systems (416, SCAR, etc.).
But, I don't give a **** what the badasses are "looking at". Cleaning an AR-15 isn't really that big of a bitch.
I'd actually gone into the gun shop looking for something with one of the newfangled pistons in it, and left with a pretty standard setup.
I'm personally going to spend the money I would have spent on the upgraded platform, or add-on system, on a couple of extra BCGs.
Robb Jensen
10-09-08, 19:07
yeah your totally right. that must be why special forces and the majority of swat teams want hk 416's huh. damn yuppie commandos.:confused:
These guys also shoot 20K+ rounds each per year..........apples vs. oranges.
theJanitor
10-09-08, 19:07
It is like having a BMW or something. You look cool until you get the repair bill.
HEY!! i own a BMW. not only do i get to look cool, i'm normally driving so fast that nobody gets to see me looking so cool. ;):D BTW, my salesman told me to open the repair bills in private. nobody likes to see grown men cry
rightwingmaniac
10-09-08, 19:27
These guys also shoot 20K+ rounds each per year..........apples vs. oranges.
so am i if obama gets in.:D
Most suburban commandos buying piston guns are posers, the ultimate gear queers. You can't compare those to real operators who actually have a use for the piston guns.
Most people have no use for piston ARs.
Jay Cunningham
10-09-08, 19:33
*groan*
Like gotm4 alluded to the piston guns do fill a role but in general they are not going to give you any benefit.
I will probably pick up an ADH upper when I can but it will be an 11.5" and I will be running it suppressed. It makes some sense in that instance.
- barrel less than 14.5"
- high round counts/full auto
- suppressed
- inconsistent ammo availability
Otherwise DI runs great. My AR's are unquestionably more reliable in operation than my AK's have been. Of course there is a helluva lot more variation in the AK world.
rightwingmaniac
10-09-08, 19:34
im not a ranger anymore, but i do want the shit my buddies get when the SHTF.
Seth Harness
10-09-08, 20:36
Most suburban commandos buying piston guns are posers, the ultimate gear queers. You can't compare those to real operators who actually have a use for the piston guns.
Most people have no use for piston ARs.
I would say most people (everyday citizens) have no "use" for an AR period, let alone a piston gun. Being a part of an excellent weapon platform and new ideas that seem sound and logical, is the reason I purchased and still use my conversion kit. No, I dont shoot suppressed, F/A nor do I have an SBR. I enjoy working on guns and tinkering with parts and Im always trying to come up with ideas to make things better. I dont think theres anything wrong with spending a little bit of money to try/do something new or different, in the name of guns.
My response to the original question, to or not to. If its a money issue, then dont. Your gun will run fine without it. If you want to buy one because your interest is in guns and their parts, then I say do it.
...Or maybe my opinion sucks. :D
jostha2007
10-09-08, 21:00
Just dropped the better part of half a months wages on a Colt 6920 and I'm wondering... IS a piston conversion such as, PWS, Adams et.al worth it? Im asking anyone who has personal experience using these types to chime in with their opinions (bohica;)). Any issues with reliability, breakage and parts availability and manufacturer warranty problems, plus any wear and tear issues that are accelerated by using these conversions will be considered in factoring in whether or not I'll spring the extra 400.00 to 500.00 bucks to get it done. Thanks in advance of any help anyone has to offer.
You wanna do what in your ar???? :D Just kidding..
I have seen this argument over the past year, to piston or not to piston... that is a good question...
I have seen alot of guys go the piston route, and I have noticed that they all love it. However with the current market trend, I am waiting until I can see if I can actually aford to slap a Piston in my ar. Now, I am not one of the Colt guys, I have a couple of RRA's and love em.. but my .02 is that if you can drop the dough on the piston, then go for it...
Do you need a piston upper?
For the vast majority of folks who shoot 2,000 rounds a month or less, I would recommend a quality DI upper like the 5.56 mm Noveske 16" N4 light recce mid-length or Colt 6920.
When you start shooting more rounds, then piston uppers make more sense. The HK416 by far the most proven platform, although there have been a few glitches here and there. The LWRC is an elegant design--let's hope the new factory will allow them to ramp up production and QC. ADC is an interesting option, but has no track record--I hope to try one in the near future. Most piston conversions have not demonstrated sufficient reliability and durability across a broad spectrum of hard use.
------------------
Seth Harness: An AR15 is certainly a viable option for any lawful person to use to protect their family and home, thus it has a "use" for any citizen.
to the OP
I would keep it the way it is and enjoy it
get a complete piston gun later if you want to get into them and I guess I say if you know you want it you will get it ? if you have to talk yourself into it ! dont get one :)
nobody needs anything but some people like stuff and wants cool stuff I dont mind
I used to dive a lot and have about 5000 dives under my belt and was a instructor for about 15 years in the islands
to me most all scuba people I meet except a few are posers but yet many have some cool new gear etc..
WHO CARES as long as you like it and enjoy it and USE it !!! thats the key dont buy it and stick it away !!!
I had to get a glock when they first came out way back in the days and the 1911 guys ribbed me for it big time
kept laughing at my plastic toy etc...
again who cares I liked it used it and enjoyed it and look where glock is today ! yet those back in the day said it was never going to take off and not needed !
now glocks are quite respected
I have a LMT piston coming in and I expect it to be more expensive to repair if it needs it ? or maybe more hassle !
who cares but I also want to play with new things so I have experience first hand with them
rightwingmaniac
10-10-08, 00:16
Do you need a piston upper?
For the vast majority of folks who shoot 2,000 rounds a month or less, I would recommend a quality DI upper like the 5.56 mm Noveske 16" N4 light recce mid-length or Colt 6920.
When you start shooting more rounds, then piston uppers make more sense. The HK416 by far the most proven platform, although there have been a few glitches here and there. The LWRC is an elegant design--let's hope the new factory will allow them to ramp up production and QC. ADC is an interesting option, but has no track record--I hope to try one in the near future. Most piston conversions have not demonstrated sufficient reliability and durability across a broad spectrum of hard use.
------------------
Seth Harness: An AR15 is certainly a viable option for any lawful person to use to protect their family and home, thus it has a "use" for any citizen.
i just got my lwrc 6.8 m6a2 srt this week. this is one bad motha
Seth Harness
10-10-08, 05:50
------------------
Seth Harness: An AR15 is certainly a viable option for any lawful person to use to protect their family and home, thus it has a "use" for any citizen.
Doc,
Its alright, I was speaking in terms of needs vs. wants. Most people dont need them, they want them. I dont need my rifle either, I wanted it and same with my conversion kit. I dont like the comment "gear queer" when someone dose something out of the box.
to the OP
I would keep it the way it is and enjoy it
get a complete piston gun later if you want to get into them and I guess I say if you know you want it you will get it ? if you have to talk yourself into it ! dont get one :)
I think this is good advice. I think piston conversions from any manufacturer are a bad idea.
Stephen
Hi, I am a "yuppie suburban commando, poser, gear queer" that has an LWRC on the way.
I made the decision to purchase a piston AR based on the following "hype":
The TF and ODA guys I conduct missions with, highly recommend the piston system (mainly for the SBR and suppressed reasons) but also because they do run cooler and cleaner.
I am a lefty, and I like having a piston vents the gas out the front of the weapon and not out the ejection port and into my face.
The piston system is being adapted by many of the new AR manufacturers and may very well be the next AR system for the next generation weapon of the U.S. military. Then, everyone will want one.
I don't need a piston AR, I want one. I also think that if you can afford it, you can't go wrong, an LWRC repair bill is a non-issue, since they have a lifetime warranty.
Hopefully no one buys in to that blatantly juvenile name calling for selecting a different weapon operating system. I think someone has piston and BMW envy. :p
30 cal slut
10-10-08, 10:12
i recently bought a colt MTC series gun and ripped out the front sight and gas tube.
i did the adams arms conversion. took only ten minutes to install, once you got the front sight base pins out. (ya need a day for the loctite on the custom carrier key screws to dry, though, before you can shoot it).
low round count right now, but the system is working just fine (so far). i'm keeping a watchful eye on the lower receiver by the buffer spring for bolt carrier tilt.
accuracy difference is un-noticeable vs. a direct impingement gun inside 50 yards. further out, i'll let you know.
i like the fact the most of the time i can just get away with swabbing the bore and chamber and be done with the cleaning. maybe clean the bolt face.
2 minutes instead of say, 30 minutes to take out the bolt and charging handle, wipe them down, sweep out the upper receiver etc.
i can say that there is one case where it makes all the sense in the world to have a gas piston upper. a shooting range that rents AR's. ranges typically don't clean guns after each rental. shooting an unlubed uncleaned direct impingement AR is no fun.
would be nice to get a similar conversion kit for a 9mm carbine. that blowback design gets dirty in a hurry.
I purchased an LMT piston rifle and am completely happy!!! That said, companies that make complete piston rifles are different than companies that make piston conversions.
I know that LWRC and LMT have shot 10s of thousands of rounds through their rifles in all manners of use...F/A, suppressed, short barreled, and standard configuration in all types of conditions/weather. They were designed from the ground up to be piston ARs and have good reputations with customer service to 'help' anyone that has any issue. That is why I went with LMT!!! Going with a company that makes conversions might or might not work and if you have one, where do you go when/if things go wrong???
If I were in the OP shoes, I think I would wait a few years for these smaller companies that make conversions to work out all their kinks/growing pains and build up their reputation for quality and customer service. If he really wants to go piston, then, I would say purchase an upper from one of the companies that make complete rifles. That way, he has both...the original DI Colt and a piston upper from a known piston rifle company.;)
QuickStrike
10-10-08, 15:05
If you're bitten by the piston bug, you won't be happy til you get one. :p
But I wouldn't convert my 6920 though. Don't like to mess with stuff that already works just fine...
Because I couldn't afford/find an HK 416 upper, I bought an N4 upper from Noveske and had LWRC convert it to get something similar (piston AR with a CHF barrel).
Some seem to think that it's a wetodded idea, but that's never stopped me from doing anything. :D
Edit: for posers only? :rolleyes: We lowly civies don't need no stinkin' approval for piston ARs, chest rigs, shoulder things that goes up! :mad:
IdahoCorsair
10-10-08, 17:14
OK. I trust you guys on here when you say that you should go piston for shorter than 14.5", suppressed, F/A, and high round counts.
hehe.
BUT WHY???? I did a search on here and didn't find the why behind the four times to run a piston over DI. An explanation of the why behind this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Parabellum9x19mm
10-10-08, 17:24
Because I couldn't afford/find an HK 416 upper, I bought an N4 upper from Noveske and had LWRC convert it to get something similar (piston AR with a CHF barrel).
i wouldn't do that with any of my Noveskes. they all run perfectly. NFA is hard to get where i live, so i don't see the need for myself. suppressors are a total no-go, the only way to have a SBR is to get a M16 lower or RDIAS...
the only thing i would retro-fit would be beater upper *maybe* just for kicks, but its just not worth it to me. the only reason would be to join the piston club and say i have one :p but i'd rather just spend that money on ammo or mags or other gear.
i still think the LMT MRP piston is super sexy, but after creaming over it for months, i think i'm going to pass on it. mostly because of weight and expense :(
Call Chris at ADDAX Tactical in Chatsworth, CA. He has the BEST uppers and an improved retro-fit system that ROCKS!
Don't let the naysayers tell you it's not worth it -- GP upper will run cleaner, cooler, and kick less than DI.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/Gassystem.jpg
I have switched all my DI guns over to GP --
Full Addax rifle on Spike's lower --
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/timAddax.jpg
And i just bought the LMT full CQB rifle Gas Piston Upper version to go with my DI:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/_MG_4822.jpg
Hi, I am a "yuppie suburban commando, poser, gear queer" that has an LWRC on the way.
I made the decision to purchase a piston AR based on the following "hype":
The TF and ODA guys I conduct missions with, highly recommend the piston system (mainly for the SBR and suppressed reasons) but also because they do run cooler and cleaner.
I am a lefty, and I like having a piston vents the gas out the front of the weapon and not out the ejection port and into my face.
The piston system is being adapted by many of the new AR manufacturers and may very well be the next AR system for the next generation weapon of the U.S. military. Then, everyone will want one.
I don't need a piston AR, I want one. I also think that if you can afford it, you can't go wrong, an LWRC repair bill is a non-issue, since they have a lifetime warranty.
Hopefully no one buys in to that blatantly juvenile name calling for selecting a different weapon operating system. I think someone has piston and BMW envy. :p
Gee I guess I am too. I have been a gas piston fan ever since I owned my Armalite ar10 in .308 that I bought ~10 years ago. When looking for an AR in .223 it was a no-brainer when my dealer showed me the POF-USA .223. If it were me I'd stick with a complete rifle over a conversion. OTOH if there are reputable conversions out there for the 6920 then I'd consider it.
^^ Gunrider - those are nice looking weepons.
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