View Full Version : Glock G19: The Once and Future King?
PrivateCitizen
10-25-17, 14:35
It seems there isn't a month that goes by that there isn't a new "Glock Killer"
But how many have come and gone? How many had potential, hype, buy me, try me, best thing that ever was … only to cavitate into anonymity or implode around the hype?
I came out of a post SIG phase in carrying CZ PCR 2008-ish and bought into the M&P 1.0 hype-train … only to watch that spiral into trigger, barrel accuracy issues, etc. It wasn't platform ending or as bad as, say, the P320 drop snafu, but it really seemed to put the brakes on its adoption.
The list of challnegers is long and while the Glock may not intrinsically be perfect it reigns to this day … and I don't expect that is likely to change.
In no particular order and likely missing many:
S&W SW99
Walther P99
HK VP9
Canik TP9
P250
P320
PPQ/PPQ M2
Caracal
Steyr M9
Beretta APX
CZ P07
XD/XDM
FN FNS
FN 509
(Whats missing?)
I was part of the run-around looking for the rightful heir … and there have been many rallying cries among industry celebs/experts to the new form-factor (and for poptentially a number of reasons: philosophical, economic, emotional, etc). Even here at nailed-down M4C … amongst many of the most admired members and SMEs … the M&P9, the CZ P07, HK VP9 and now the M&P 2.0 and CZ P10C.
So, as we now stand looking at the Glock/S&W/CZ contenders duking it out again … is either of the contenders really capable of dethroning the Glock?
What will it really take?
Can it be done with 'same-as' pricing?
How much better will it really have to be?
boombotz401
10-25-17, 14:43
There’s no one glock killer imo
People choose them for different reasons, what may sway one may not sway another
Simplicity,ease of use, simple internals, aftermarket support
M2.0 is close to sitting next to my Glock’s but not replacing them with the new 2.0c out
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Mr. Goodtimes
10-25-17, 15:05
Glock has and will continue to reign King of the polymer pistol world. The G19 checks too many boxes.
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Doc Safari
10-25-17, 15:07
"We Live in a Glock World"
'Nuff Said.
Although I personally prefer the 17. The 19's grip hump just feels all wrong for me, like it's in the wrong place compared to the 17 or something. But you can't argue with the near universal consensus that the 19 is the best compromise between concealibility and capacity.
IMO before the Gen5 there were other more enticing options that offered more for the price point such as an ambi slide stop. Now that the Gen5 checks all the boxes and you dont need to spend the extra cash to remove the finger groves, I say its the King.
Eurodriver
10-25-17, 15:49
People only buy pistols that aren’t Glock 9mms because they want to be different - a sobering thought considering their life may hang in the balance.
This whole “grip doesn’t feel right” “doesn’t point right” thing for the Glock has never been something I have seen folks who have 1,000 rounds down the pipe talk about. It seems to be a pot-belly gun store troglodyte ad hominem for wanting to be “different”
Doc Safari
10-25-17, 15:51
People only buy pistols that aren’t Glock 9mms because they want to be different - a sobering thought considering their life may depend on it.
This whole “grip doesn’t feel right” “doesn’t point right” thing for the Glock has never been something I have seen folks who have 1,000 rounds down the pipe talk about. It seems to be a pot-belly gun store troglodyte hominem for wanting to be “different”
We've covered this before, but I just prefer how the 17 sits in the hand for me. Nothing wrong with the 19 I would just never choose it over the 17 because I have stubby fingers and the grip of the 17 is longer making the hump lower where I can actually wrap my fingers around the 17 better. I can't get a good grip on the 19 because the grip is wider where I don't need it to be.
It may not seem significant to you, but for the same reason I would never own the .45 caliber Glock: grip too fat. YMMV and we can agree to disagree but I ditched my 19's for 17's years ago and haven't looked back.
No one will ever be able to talk me down on this point. Don't even try. It's like I know AR Pmags are supposed to be the shizzle, but I don't like them and don't use them.
Outlander Systems
10-25-17, 15:52
Glock.
The end.
Everything else is just itch-scratching and wine sniffing.
Also, in before:
>b-but muh g-grip angle
>b-but muh "ergonomics"
>b-but muh "comfort"
>b-but the trigger
Buy Glock. Shoot it. None of the the above listed amateur-hour gripes are quantifiable "issues." They're attitude problems.
You start "outshooting" the gun? Good. Get yourself a KKM barrel.
This is literally the easiest decision a potential handgun purchaser could possibly make.
You wanna throw bullets or put on a ****ing fashion show?
Eurodriver
10-25-17, 15:55
We've covered this before, but I just prefer how the 17 sits in the hand for me. Nothing wrong with the 19 I would just never choose it over the 17 because I have stubby fingers and the grip of the 17 is longer making the hump lower where I can actually wrap my fingers around the 17 better. I can't get a good grip on the 19 because the grip is wider where I don't need it to be.
It may not seem significant to you, but for the same reason I would never own the .45 caliber Glock: grip too fat. YMMV and we can agree to disagree but I ditched my 19's for 17's years ago and haven't looked back.
Confused
Isn’t a Glock 17 chambered for 9mm?
Doc Safari
10-25-17, 15:57
Confused
Isn’t a Glock 17 chambered for 9mm?
Why are you confused? I was comparing grip sizes.
I also ditched my Gen 3's for Gen 4's because the Gen 4 grip is just that much thinner.
You like the 19 over the 17. I get it. Goody for you. Both of us have had thousands of rounds through our pistols. We have our preference. Nothing more than that. YMMV. Nobody's right and nobody's wrong.
I won't argue the 19 is king. No dispute there. You just won't see me with one as long as I can get my hands on a 17.
Outlander Systems
10-25-17, 16:02
My preference is for the G17 as well, only because it's still relatively compact for a "full-sized" handgun.
The differences are irrelevant; if you want a 9mm, the only viable options on the ****ing planet are Glocks.
Why are you confused? I was comparing grip sizes.
Doc Safari
10-25-17, 16:03
My preference is for the G17 as well, only because it's still relatively compact for a "full-sized" handgun.
The differences are irrelevant; if you want a 9mm, the only viable options on the ****ing planet are Glocks.
End of story.
noonesshowmonkey
10-25-17, 16:05
The Walther PPQ M1 is arguably a better handgun in a few specific criteria: fully ambidextrous, fantastic stock trigger.
Overall, it has the best ergonomics of any handgun that I've ever trained with. Were the armed professional world centered around a given pistol, I would consider a PPQ along with a Glock 19/17. The again, as an institution, the interoperability of the Glock platform would easily supplant the individual user's needs.
So, really, I just argued FOR the Glock by the end of my wandering astray.
Which is exactly how I always end up whenever I enter a thought exercise about handguns. Glock is Home. I always return.
ETA: they are even addressing the ambi question with Gen 5 having the ambi slide stop. Plus the mag release can be reversed...
Eurodriver
10-25-17, 16:09
Why are you confused? I was comparing grip sizes.
I also ditched my Gen 3's for Gen 4's because the Gen 4 grip is just that much thinner.
You like the 19 over the 17. I get it. Goody for you. Both of us have had thousands of rounds through our pistols. We have our preference. Nothing more than that. YMMV. Nobody's right and nobody's wrong.
I won't argue the 19 is king. No dispute there. You just won't see me with one as long as I can get my hands on a 17.
Where did I say anything about a Glock 19 dude?
My preference is for the G17 as well, only because it's still relatively compact for a "full-sized" handgun.
The differences are irrelevant; if you want a 9mm, the only viable options on the ****ing planet are Glocks.
The Glock is the "only viable option"? That's a bold and misinformed statement.
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Doc Safari
10-25-17, 16:12
Where did I say anything about a Glock 19 dude?
I was replying to your statement that caring about the grip's size and angle somehow means a person is a gun store commando who hasn't shot pistols much or has never had any training. I LOL'ed at first then took it kinda personal. Sorry if I took your post the wrong way.
Nobody criticizes 1911 owners who prefer a flat mainspring housing over an arched one. I prefer a Glock 17 over a 19 because it's primarily the same thing: grip preference.
PrivateCitizen
10-25-17, 16:17
The differences are irrelevant; if you want a 9mm, the only viable options on the ****ing planet are Glocks.
An excellent observation. Minor accuracy factors aside (and none that matter in terms of the role) they all shoot the same bullet.
All of the "it's new" revolve around minutia.
Also, if the 19 is King, the 17 is certainly the Knight of the order.
Anyhow, as to the original question … what would it take?
Frankly, I think in large part Glock just won the dimensions lottery early and every competitor that tries ultimately faces the conundrum … "we can't have the same measurements without having to admit the Glocks already have it right." They all have to "try and be better" … and then aren't.
PrivateCitizen
10-25-17, 16:22
The Glock is the "only viable option"? That's a bold and misinformed statement.
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In fact, this is exactly what the thread is about.
What is a true contender and what does it need to succeed?
To date even the best efforts amount to nothing more than niche players … unless you consider the P320 and … well … that has it's own issues, it seems.
Or do you think that is the actual sum of it?
Is Glock not viable for you and do you think your chosen alternative is legitimately capable of being a wide spread replacement?
My preference is for the G17 as well, only because it's still relatively compact for a "full-sized" handgun.
The differences are irrelevant; if you want a 9mm, the only viable options on the ****ing planet are Glocks.That is why I turned one of my g17's into a 19l
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A G19 to me is like a G43 for most.
I like G17 as a result but unless there is a radical, and I mean radical, design that exceeds the Glocks then it will be a Glock world probably past most of us are dead and buried.
People can like what they want and buy what they want. I have a few non Glock guns because they excel in one or two niche areas where a Glock doesn't (but fall short in totality) or just because I wanted it.
But to really split hairs over it is kind of lame and indicative of one who doesn't really rely on a handgun everyday.
There is a culture of CCW people who treat guns (and knives) as fashion statements. Keep rocking in the free world. If it can successfully fire a bullet then it should work should the less than likely occur.
But if I was told I had to live in the jungle for 40 years and wander until I was granted passage to the promised land; then I am taking a Glock.
Not a Revolver. Not an HK. Not a 1911. Not a Makarov. Not a Sig. Not some "new" gun.
A Glock. And wont think twice.
Honestly, I could part with every last gun to my name as long as I could have a good, solid Gen 3 G17.
If I have no heirs, once I hit 60; I am unloading ALLLLLLL my shit save for my G17.
So in 2042, be on the lookout on the EE.
All proceeds will go towards a mural van and a crazy 20 yo Redhead gymnast.
In fact, this is exactly what the thread is about.
What is a true contender and what does it need to succeed?
To date even the best efforts amount to nothing more than niche players … unless you consider the P320 and … well … that has it's own issues, it seems.
Or do you think that is the actual sum of it?
Is Glock not viable for you and do you think your chosen alternative is legitimately capable of being a wide spread replacement?
The word "viable", I think you need to look it up. Plenty of guns are "viable". If it were the case the Glock was THE ONLY viable pistol, their sales wouldn't be eclipsed by others.
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That is why I turned one of my g17's into a 19l
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Pics? Explanation?
That seems like the Detonics Streetmaster. Not knocking as it seems like a neat idea.
Glock.
The end.
Everything else is just itch-scratching and wine sniffing.
Also, in before:
>b-but muh g-grip angle
>b-but muh "ergonomics"
>b-but muh "comfort"
>b-but the trigger
Buy Glock. Shoot it. None of the the above listed amateur-hour gripes are quantifiable "issues." They're attitude problems.
You start "outshooting" the gun? Good. Get yourself a KKM barrel.
This is literally the easiest decision a potential handgun purchaser could possibly make.
You wanna throw bullets or put on a ****ing fashion show?
This is a special level of arrogance. Not everyone has the same shape hand. Ergonomics and trigger pull do matter. This is why 2011's are so popular in the comp world. I used to shoot Glocks now I shoot a P320 much better.
Eurodriver
10-25-17, 16:54
This is a special level of arrogance. Not everyone has the same shape hand. I used to shoot Glocks in steel challenge, now I shoot a P320 much better.
Don’t drop the soap!!
It seems there isn't a month that goes by that there isn't a new "Glock Killer"
But how many have come and gone? How many had potential, hype, buy me, try me, best thing that ever was … only to cavitate into anonymity or implode around the hype?
I came out of a post SIG phase in carrying CZ PCR 2008-ish and bought into the M&P 1.0 hype-train … only to watch that spiral into trigger, barrel accuracy issues, etc. It wasn't platform ending or as bad as, say, the P320 drop snafu, but it really seemed to put the brakes on its adoption.
The list of challnegers is long and while the Glock may not intrinsically be perfect it reigns to this day … and I don't expect that is likely to change.
In no particular order and likely missing many:
S&W SW99
Walther P99
HK VP9
Canik TP9
P250
P320
PPQ/PPQ M2
Caracal
Steyr M9
Beretta APX
CZ P07
XD/XDM
FN FNS
FN 509
(Whats missing?)
Arsenal Strike One and Hudson H9.
I want to try the Gen 5 G19. That's about the only thing I could see replacing my Gen 3 G19. I do have a PPQ Navy that I refuse to get rid of, but it would never replace my 19.
Doc Safari
10-25-17, 17:00
This is a special level of arrogance. Not everyone has the same shape hand. I used to shoot Glocks in steel challenge, now I shoot a P320 much better.
I shot 1911's in IDPA matches better than any pistol I've ever held. When I applied for my CCW, I used a 1911. My shots were mostly in one hole. The instructor told me "I need you to disperse your rounds a little bit because I have to count the hits to grade your qualification." That is no exaggeration.
I cannot shoot that kind of one-hole accuracy with a Glock, no matter what flavor.
But I would trust a Glock to go bang every time I pull the trigger. I LOVE the 1911. I prefer the 1911 over any pistol. 1911's are fine pistols but have well-known issues that do not plague the Glock. That's why Glock is the best choice for a pistol that will save your life.
I need to investigate the P320. But isn't it kind of a "newbie" compared to Glock's 30+ years of proven ability? Not saying it isn't a good pistol, but how long has it been around to prove itself? Since 2014 or 2015?
This is a special level of arrogance. Not everyone has the same shape hand. Ergonomics and trigger pull do matter. This is why 2011's are so popular in the comp world. I used to shoot Glocks now I shoot a P320 much better.
May I ask how many 2011s are in the combat world?
Outlander Systems
10-25-17, 17:08
Viable. Given the context of this discussion, and we are strictly discussing a no-bullshit, gunfighting pistol, the Glock 9mms are it. The end.
If dudes are more concerned with Instagram than slinging bullets downrange, there are plenty of more "viable" options out there.
The word "viable", I think you need to look it up. Plenty of guns are "viable". If it were the case the Glock was THE ONLY viable pistol, their sales wouldn't be eclipsed by others.
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Technically a Hi Point is "viable".
They have a lifetime warranty and more than a few folks up in boot hill because of one.
To paraphrase (probably poorly so dont kill me) Ramairthree "I'm at an age where I just want an easy button"
Glocks are pretty much the easy button gun. Anything else is a preference or a whimsy.
Viable. Given the context of this discussion, and we are strictly discussing a no-bullshit, gunfighting pistol, the Glock 9mms are it. The end.
If dudes are more concerned with Instagram than slinging bullets downrange, there are plenty of more "viable" options out there.
So CZ 75s, the most-carried duty pistol in the world, aren't gunfighting pistols? Sig P-series guns haven't been kicking ass? Or HKs? The P30 is arguably one of the most reliable, durable guns out there.
Glocks are a great gun, no doubt. I carry one and have for years. Glocks are easy and normal. They have the logistics game down, especially in the US. Glocks are just the world some people live in. They never step outside of that box. To say that's all there is is myopic.
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Outlander Systems
10-25-17, 17:29
Aside from Shiny New, what does a P320 do that a G17 can not?
I need to investigate the P320. But isn't it kind of a "newbie" compared to Glock's 30+ years of proven ability? Not saying it isn't a good pistol, but how long has it been around to prove itself? Since 2014 or 2015?
Doc Safari
10-25-17, 17:29
Aside from Shiny New, what does a P320 do that a G17 can not?
That's my thinking, but I'm trying also to be open-minded.
Outlander Systems
10-25-17, 17:30
I was a longtime HK/1911 nuthugger until I grew up.
So CZ 75s, the most-carried duty pistol in the world, aren't gunfighting pistols? Sig P-series guns haven't been kicking ass? Or HKs? The P30 is arguably one of the most reliable, durable guns out there.
Glocks are just the world some people live in. They never step outside of that box. To say that's all there is is myopic.
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I was a longtime HK/1911 nuthugger until I grew up.
Cool, but you didn't really address what I said.
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Eurodriver
10-25-17, 17:32
Aside from Shiny New, what does a P320 do that a G17 can not?
Require $42 a pop magazines!!!
Outlander Systems
10-25-17, 17:33
Fair enough.
If you want to improve a Glock, the way to do it is by adding a RDS.
Until something radical comes along, it's typically a game of "Check Out Our New, Patented, Not-A-Glock Pistol."
If dudes want to demonstrably improve their pistol shooting, add a dot.
That's my thinking, but I'm trying also to be open-minded.
Outlander Systems
10-25-17, 17:36
Cool bro.
I don't live in Indochina, so when the local Walgreens starts carrying CZ mags instead of Glock mags, I'll be sure to check out the CZ.
Cool, but you didn't really address what I said.
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Welp, if you like your gun you can keep your gun.
Have fun.
Doc Safari
10-25-17, 17:38
Cool bro.
I don't live in Indochina, so when the local Walgreens starts carrying CZ mags instead of Glock mags, I'll be sure to check out the CZ.
WALGREENS CARRIES GLOCK MAGS???????!!! There IS hope for this country!
WALGREENS CARRIES GLOCK MAGS?!!! There IS hope for this country!
What???? Gawd bless Austria?
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WALGREENS CARRIES GLOCK MAGS?!!! There IS hope for this country!
That would be badass. smokes, trojans, glock mags, cough syrup, cookies and a Mr. Pibb
What a country!
Outlander Systems
10-25-17, 17:45
Bro. If you EVER have the opportunity to go to a Rural King, SEIZE THAT OPPORTUNITY.
That would be badass. smokes, trojans, glock mags, cough syrup, cookies and a Mr. Pibb
What a country!
Doc Safari
10-25-17, 17:47
That would be badass. smokes, trojans, glock mags, cough syrup, cookies and a Mr. Pibb
What a country!
True story: we used to go to this gun show in El Paso, and on the way we had to exit the interstate to get on another highway that took us through a mountain pass. Just as you got off the interstate there was a convenience store with a great big marquee type sign that said "BEER AND PISTOL AMMO."
I looked at my buddies and said, "Gents, take note of the fact that we have now officially entered TEXAS."
Outlander Systems
10-25-17, 17:48
LOL! That's 'Murk AF!
True story: we used to go to this gun show in El Paso, and on the way we had to exit the interstate to get on another highway that took us through a mountain pass. Just as you got off the interstate there was a convenience store with a great big marquee type sign that said "BEER AND PISTOL AMMO."
I looked at my buddies and said, "Gents, take note of the fact that we have now officially entered TEXAS."
The biggest advantages in my mind for the G19 are availability and low cost of parts/mags
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-25-17, 18:02
Glocks are fine. But I find that a lot of Glock fans just define the Glock as perfect and then ding everything that is different for not being the same and everything that is similliar for not being different enough. They are a good all around choice, but I tend to prefer other guns. I prefer my j-frames for pocket carry because they are safe to carry without a holster or simple to just drop in my pocket with a holster. I prefer my Shield for IWB because it is very light and thin, yet offers just enough more size over the mini Glocks to be more controllable. I prefer my Beretta 92G-SD for beside the bed/doomsday carry because it is an amazingly reliable with all types of ammunition and easy to shoot accurately while having the double action trigger I prefer for a margin of “bump in the night/groggy old man” saftey. I shot Glocks for many years( and respect them, and still own several) but they are just another choice, not “the only” choice. I spent many years trying to find the one gun, and ultimately, for me at least, I couldn’t do it. Hell, if I could only have one, I would just take my j-frame.
Outlander Systems
10-25-17, 18:21
Guns are a delivery system for bullets. Glocks deliver bullets.
If dudes wanna turn guns into wine tasting, cool.
Logical fallacies in this thread: "Glocks are good guns" ===>> "no gun is better than Glock" ==>> "all guns are inferior to Glocks"
Lets apply this logic to a real fighting gun: the M4A1. I truly believe this is the best fighting rifle ever devised. But is it the "only viable option"? Absolutely not. Arm a bunch of Infantry Soldiers or Marines with an AK74, and the choice of rifle is not what will make a difference against most enemies. And how often does which pistol you choose really make that sort of difference? Never? Rarely?
Training is what makes the difference. Pick a gun and shoot it. And dry fire it. And practice holster/reload/malfunction training.
No need to justify your purchase. Glock makes a genuinely great gun, but others exist. I get that owning like 3 G19's is a good logistics plan. And being cheap, you can spend more money on training. But that doesn't mean you won't be beaten on the range or street by a guy with a different plan/gun.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-25-17, 18:57
“Guns are a delivery system for bullets. Glocks deliver bullets.
If dudes wanna turn guns into wine tasting, cool.”
And much like wine , many folks convince themselves their pet label is the best.
I like K frame snubbies.
Yes, K frame. Snubbies.
I regret nothing.
PrivateCitizen
10-25-17, 19:16
So CZ 75s, the most-carried duty pistol in the world, aren't gunfighting pistols? Sig P-series guns haven't been kicking ass? Or HKs? The P30 is arguably one of the most reliable, durable guns out there.
Glocks are a great gun, no doubt. I carry one and have for years. Glocks are easy and normal. They have the logistics game down, especially in the US …
This is that point in the thread where the contrary position reinforces the initial premise.
The original post is not what is better than a Glock? …
The topic is, despite subsequent tangents, why is the Glock still on top? It clearly has flaws. So, what will need to be done to be the "New Glock"?
This is that point in the thread where the contrary position reinforces the initial premise.
The original post is not what is better than a Glock? …
The topic is, despite subsequent tangents, why is the Glock still on top? It clearly has flaws. So, what will need to be done to be the "New Glock"?
I completely answered that for you. Logistics. That is why Glock is where it is. Holsters, sights, magazines, etc. It's not the fastest shooting gun. It isn't the most accurate, nor the most durable. But it was first and most supported.
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I like K frame snubbies.
Yes, K frame. Snubbies.
I regret nothing.
I like N-frame snubbies... there are days I strap on the old 625 3" and fill my pockets with moon clips of .45ACP... god I love that pistol. But, alas, the G19 gets the nod 90% of the time.
I have 2 glock 19s, a 17, a p07 and a P10C.
The only thing I own that comes close to beating out the 19 for me is the p10C. It feels better in my hand, i shoot much better at distance with it and the trigger lives up to the hype. It even fits in my 19s kydex holster. However it won’t replace my 19 as my carry gun because of three things.
1. I’m a proponent of night sights and as of right now, options are limited
2. I don’t have enough rounds through it to prove it’ll be as reliable as my glocks.
3. The mag release leaves a LOT to be desired. Like a lot . I’m not sure how it made it out of the R&D phase.
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Outlander Systems
10-25-17, 20:00
I liken it to sportbikes. When the technology is inherently beyond the capability of the majority to master, it's all pretty irrelevant.
An integrally suppressed, RDS-equipped, recoilless pistol that was >/= the reliability of a Glock would probably supplant it.
Muh new grips and muh better ergos is amateur hour bullshit.
This is that point in the thread where the contrary position reinforces the initial premise.
The original post is not what is better than a Glock? …
The topic is, despite subsequent tangents, why is the Glock still on top? It clearly has flaws. So, what will need to be done to be the "New Glock"?
I liken it to sportbikes. When the technology is inherently beyond the capability of the majority to master, it's all pretty irrelevant.
An integrally suppressed, RDS-equipped, recoilless pistol that was >/= the reliability of a Glock would probably supplant it.
Muh new grips and muh better ergos is amateur hour bullshit.
Are faster splits "amateur hour bullshit"?
Are faster reloads "amateur hour bullshit"?
Is better accuracy "amateur hour bullshit"?
So if one achieves better results in these metrics with something other than Glock, why should they shoot Glock?
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SeriousStudent
10-25-17, 20:44
ghostly - cool your jets.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-25-17, 21:06
People only buy pistols that aren’t Glock 9mms because they want to be different - a sobering thought considering their life may hang in the balance.
This whole “grip doesn’t feel right” “doesn’t point right” thing for the Glock has never been something I have seen folks who have 1,000 rounds down the pipe talk about. It seems to be a pot-belly gun store troglodyte ad hominem for wanting to be “different”
Yup, I agree.
militarymoron
10-25-17, 21:12
If dudes wanna turn guns into wine tasting, cool.
wine tasting is subjective. split times and target scores aren't. if a stock glock works well for you, great. if folks shoot better by changing a part, good for them. not everyone is a "professional" who isn't allowed to customize their firearm to suit their individual needs.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-25-17, 21:15
I completely answered that for you. Logistics. That is why Glock is where it is. Holsters, sights, magazines, etc. It's not the fastest shooting gun. It isn't the most accurate, nor the most durable. But it was first and most supported.
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I've watched instructors shoot groups with stock glocks that looked like groups shot with rifles.
Once an instructor took my stock G17 at 10 yards, held it with one hand with only his trigger finger and thumb leaving the rest of his fingers completely off the grip and shot a 5 shot group the size of a half dollar coin.
I believe Glocks are more accurate than most people are able to shoot them.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-25-17, 21:22
A G19 to me is like a G43 for most.
I like G17 as a result but unless there is a radical, and I mean radical, design that exceeds the Glocks then it will be a Glock world probably past most of us are dead and buried.
People can like what they want and buy what they want. I have a few non Glock guns because they excel in one or two niche areas where a Glock doesn't (but fall short in totality) or just because I wanted it.
But to really split hairs over it is kind of lame and indicative of one who doesn't really rely on a handgun everyday.
There is a culture of CCW people who treat guns (and knives) as fashion statements. Keep rocking in the free world. If it can successfully fire a bullet then it should work should the less than likely occur.
But if I was told I had to live in the jungle for 40 years and wander until I was granted passage to the promised land; then I am taking a Glock.
Not a Revolver. Not an HK. Not a 1911. Not a Makarov. Not a Sig. Not some "new" gun.
A Glock. And wont think twice.
Honestly, I could part with every last gun to my name as long as I could have a good, solid Gen 3 G17.
If I have no heirs, once I hit 60; I am unloading ALLLLLLL my shit save for my G17.
So in 2042, be on the lookout on the EE.
All proceeds will go towards a mural van and a crazy 20 yo Redhead gymnast.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171026/76d3b7738f3fbdab2e687f4296ae637f.jpg
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Pics? Explanation?
That seems like the Detonics Streetmaster. Not knocking as it seems like a neat idea.
Pretty common Fly, you just cut the grip shorter, it is plastic, you know. Use 17mags with sleeves or 19 mags, or 19 mags with extensions.
Linebacker
10-25-17, 21:26
I have 2 glock 19s, a 17, a p07 and a P10C.
The only thing I own that comes close to beating out the 19 for me is the p10C. It feels better in my hand, i shoot much better at distance with it and the trigger lives up to the hype. It even fits in my 19s kydex holster. However it won’t replace my 19 as my carry gun because of three things.
1. I’m a proponent of night sights and as of right now, options are limited
2. I don’t have enough rounds through it to prove it’ll be as reliable as my glocks.
3. The mag release leaves a LOT to be desired. Like a lot . I’m not sure how it made it out of the R&D phase.
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Very well said. I too, am a big PC10 fan, but my gut says stay with the G19, for the foreseeable future. I am liking the Gen 5 19.
At the end of the day, it likely won’t matter. Exceptions being sigs s drop safety fail, or s&w accuracy issues.
The great thing about glock is they are know to work well for a long time, and be more than accurate enough for defensive purposes.
Buy one, grab some decent sights you like and a few cases of ammo and become a shooter.
The thing I like about glock is it makes you not think about it. It’s ugly. It will always be ugly, and feel like a 2x4. But it doesn’t matter so don’t waste & time money looking at it, modding it, etc. shoot it, replace springs, etc.
Unfortunately, people try to make it look good, try to give it a “real nice trigger”, make it feel good... And a lot of them can’t shoot it well as they could if they just shot the thing.
Other guns work just as good, but I don’t feel a need to buy something to be different, and I’m not a collector. Ymmv.
Tldr- it’s the easy button, as such will remain so until vastly surpassed by something for long enough that this other thing has the support Glock does.
What ever happened to just picking a good platform and sticking with it? I mean who cares if it's Glock or a USP or a P10c or a old 226?!?!? Glocks aren't the greatest, they're not the worse. Not everyone cares about aftermarket support
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So CZ 75s, the most-carried duty pistol in the world, aren't gunfighting pistols? Sig P-series guns haven't been kicking ass? Or HKs? The P30 is arguably one of the most reliable, durable guns out there.
Glocks are a great gun, no doubt. I carry one and have for years. Glocks are easy and normal. They have the logistics game down, especially in the US. Glocks are just the world some people live in. They never step outside of that box. To say that's all there is is myopic.
I did not know that about CZ75's. Link? (Not being argumentative or a doubter, I want to copy-paste.)
I think a couple of the reasons that Glock reigns supreme - if you think that way - was it's early acceptance and adoption by the majority of police agencies in the United States.
Some of you might remember, in LE it was primarily Smith 39's and 59's, a smattering of Sigs, a smaller smattering of Rugers, an even smaller smattering of Beretta's, then BAM! almost overnight over 50% of the cops in the US were carrying Glocks. It has been as high as 85% some years at our state Academy.
Glock courted that market, sometimes masterfully. Early attempts by other manufacturers to introduce striker-fired pistols misfired, further entrenching Glock as the go-to pistol. SIGMA, anyone?
Up to the recent past, everyone else has been playing catch up. There are now several mfgrs that are pushing Glock to up it's game. We shall see.
FWIW, I am wed to Glock simply because I enjoy shooting GSSF events. However, I am seriously liking my M&P 2.0 5inch.
Eurodriver
10-25-17, 21:42
I think there can be a correlation made between the 6920 and the Glock 9mm
People would be better suited to just buying a damn Glock and shooting the thing - taking advantage of the abundant magazines and holsters available - than sniffing around a gun store trying to feel what “fits best in muh hand”.
But let’s be real homies. People don’t wanna become good shooters. They just wanna own guns and be cool.
Aside from Shiny New, what does a P320 do that a G17 can not?
Fire with no shooter input?
Fire with no shooter input?
you win . . . awesomeness
I think there can be a correlation made between the 6920 and the Glock 9mm
People would be better suited to just buying a damn Glock and shooting the thing - taking advantage of the abundant magazines and holsters available - than sniffing around a gun store trying to feel what “fits best in muh hand”.
But let’s be real homies. People don’t wanna become good shooters. They just wanna own guns and be cool.
Folks looking down their noses at everyone who doesn't do things exactly as those folks do is kind of counter-productive to advancing things.
A knowledgeable person can help any new shooter find a pistol that fits them correctly. I tend to agree that most of the time a 9mm Glock will work.
However, if you've spent anytime training IBO's (ittybittyofficers) you wouldn't denigrate the 'fits best in muh hand' aspect of choosing a firearm.
A lot of folks probably want to be good shooters, but don't know how, or fall under the influence of folks who think their experiences directly transfer to others and don't have the flexibility or empathy to provide useful instruction.
And yes, some, including a good number on this site, just wanna own guns and be cool.
Point is, everyone is just a bit different, one size WILL NEVER fit all, no matter what we wish.
I think there can be a correlation made between the 6920 and the Glock 9mm
People would be better suited to just buying a damn Glock and shooting the thing - taking advantage of the abundant magazines and holsters available - than sniffing around a gun store trying to feel what “fits best in muh hand”.
I disagree with this concept for the reason that an AR is an AR. Whether you go with a PSA special or a multi-thousand dollar KAC gun, the basic concept and most importantly ergonomics are the same and more or less adjustable. Don’t like the A2 grip? Swap in something else. Don’t like the hand guard? Here’s hundreds of options. Barrel too long for your purpose? We offer both DI and piston variants.
You can buy a 6920 or other solid unit off the shelf and rock on, or you can customize it to your wants and needs.
A pistol is not the same. Sure, you can slap grips on a 1911, new sights on your Sig, or a lighter hammer spring on your Beretta. But the basics are basically locked in place. Sure, we can stiple the polymer pistols. We can easily add lights to basically every modern handguns but the USP. But when it comes down to it, a pistol is not the same for every person. I shot Glocks for years - carry, range, and competition. I preached the 19 to all who would listen and some who didn’t. But I know now that other guns work better for people because I found that for me.
If everyone had a 19, everyone would shoot the 19 better. No doubt. But if everyone had a Hi Point or 1911 the answer would be the same. But why would I limit myself to an aging platform with mediocre ergonomics when guns like the P10C, VP9, E2 gripped Sigs, etc. are bringing superior ergonomics with just as good of durability and the same if not better accuracy? The important thing is to learn a platform, and sticking with any platform is better than bouncing around for the latest and greatest, but let’s not pretend the 19 is anything but an approaching 30 year old design with a rougher grip and non-standard accessory rail.
Folks looking down their noses at everyone who doesn't do things exactly as those folks do is kind of counter-productive to advancing things.
A knowledgeable person can help any new shooter find a pistol that fits them correctly. I tend to agree that most of the time a 9mm Glock will work.
However, if you've spent anytime training IBO's (ittybittyofficers) you wouldn't denigrate the 'fits best in muh hand' aspect of choosing a firearm.
A lot of folks probably want to be good shooters, but don't know how, or fall under the influence of folks who think their experiences directly transfer to others and don't have the flexibility or empathy to provide useful instruction.
And yes, some, including a good number on this site, just wanna own guns and be cool.
Point is, everyone is just a bit different, one size WILL NEVER fit all, no matter what we wish.
Excellent post. If I told my elderly mother she had to have a G19 or nothing, she would have to have nothing because her tiny little arthritic hands can't run one. It's a good thing there are other options.
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grizzlyblake
10-25-17, 22:50
Euro and Outlander dropping hate facts left and right. I love it.
The only gun I really need is my G19. It spends 50% of it's time in my pants and the other 50% on my nightstand. I haven't cleaned it in literally years and recently ran a 5k with it AIWB.
I agree with the prior statement that if I had to get dropped off in a third world crap hole to survive I'm taking a G19. I can't think of another pistol that I would remotely consider.
I think there can be a correlation made between the 6920 and the Glock 9mm
People would be better suited to just buying a damn Glock and shooting the thing - taking advantage of the abundant magazines and holsters available - than sniffing around a gun store trying to feel what “fits best in muh hand”.
But let’s be real homies. People don’t wanna become good shooters. They just wanna own guns and be cool.
I will have you know that my mom thinks I'm cool!!
Otherwise, yes. If I could go back to when I was 21 (despite a ban being on) I would have said "stop at your Glock and AR. Just buy mags." I had a pretty good AR when I was young. It was a ban era Bushmaster M4 with the built in comp and non collapsing stock. Normal cap Glock mags were crazy expensive but I could get AR mags for $20 at the most.
I got caught up in the whole deal and made some weird turns (I went through an AK phase. Criiiiiinge) When I sorta wish I had stuck with what I had and stuck with 9mm. I got really, really into .45 and my G21. I didnt go too crazy but I sorta wish I could have been squared away and called it good.
I had fun I guess but it was the young squandering his youth. And really any heavy, heavy shooting I did was with issued guns and issued ammo.
My guns were for meeting up with a pal, taking our girls out, blasting obscenely loud mix tapes (Yep. TAPES) and shooting cans, pie plates, charging ivan targets, and whatnot. And not thinking twice about it until later. Like 6 months could go by until I shot my own stuff again.
Now guns are kinda like NASCAR and College Football. Everybody has the one they like and the one they hate.
Most people are normies and dont realize they are normies. They can rattle off states, which army is issued what, which trainer recommends what, etc, but never actually go shoot their stuff and put in good, honest work.
With age comes wisdom. My .45 seems kinda lame now. My non AR stuff seems different to be different.
I sorta wish I could go back to the innocence of going out, plugging targets, having a lark, and living life.
Whatever I should have been "training" for has already happened. And I am still here. Doing Fly stuff.
But if I can borrow the ears of a lurker or a neophyte....
I would say, Get a 9mm Glock. Whichever one fits your hand. Get 10 mags. Get a good 6920. Get 10 30 rounders and 5 20 rounders.
Go out. Go shoot. And get proficient. Take a well vetted class if you aren't like Military or LE. Get good. Then see if you really care about guns past something "for fun" or whatnot.
The more mature you get the less you realize you actually need.
Because I know guys with Burt Gummer armories who are afraid to shoot their guns and I'm the guy who couldnt wait to blaze up his SR-25.
One guy privy that I have one actually, literally couldn't believe I had the temerity to put live ammo through it.
I guess I was supposed to just post pics of myself in MC doing a C clamp. Which you could do with a toy gun for much less.
Also shoulda just posted pics on some whatever to impress people I don't know.
I'm happy where I am now but really wish I knew then what I know now. I could have side stepped a LOT of dumb moves.
ETA TL;DR
What I wish I could say to myself in the mid 00s about chasing the gun dragon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Deg7VrpHbM
militarymoron
10-25-17, 23:16
But let’s be real homies. People don’t wanna become good shooters. They just wanna own guns and be cool.
We must hang out with different crowds. Sure, I shoot with people who just wanna own guns and be cool (I do), but you can't be 'cool' if you can't shoot what you own. Whether it's for bragging rights or for the love of the sport, they all want to shoot better, because better shooting always trumps gucci guns or gear in coolness points.
As for ergonomics and modifying grips, it's no different than buying gloves or shoes in your size. Even Glock has not only acknowledged that, but deemed it important enough to design interchangeable backstraps on their Gen 4 and 5 pistols.
MountainRaven
10-25-17, 23:58
Glock makes a mediocre pistol, but in a market with pistols like the XD and the P320, mediocre is plenty good enough.
They weren't the first. They aren't the best (never were, really). But they showed up with good enough, while most companies were struggling to figure out how to put their pants on.
The problems with Glock's competitors are two fold:
1- Glock showed up with a good enough pistol first and basically had the market by the balls for over a decade, and;
2- None of them are simpler than the Glock. None of them are as easy to work on. None of them have the aftermarket factory support for spare parts.
And it should be said that, except for H&K, it has taken the rest of the market almost three decades to figure out that Glock got the Goldilocks size on the model 19.
As a shooter, as I have matured and grown up, I have realized that guns are about shooting bullets. And 99% of the time a Glock will work as well as a Beretta, an H&K, a 1911, a model 10, or a Single-Action Army.
In my battery, my only 9mms are Glocks. That isn't because they're the best. Or because they're perfect. Or because only über-leet operators use Glocks (and nothing else). It's because - for me - they are the 9mm that sucks the least. (I'm hoping to get to try a Hudson and an EDC X9 in the near future.)
But self-proclaimed experts always like to start arguments about how "real hunters" only use 270 or 30-06 or 22-250 or 300 Win Mag or 7mm or whatever when hunting elk, when the simple fact is that the gun and ammunition are all but irrelevant so long as they are good enough and the only question is whether or not the person pulling the trigger has sufficient skill. The same is true of handguns.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-25-17, 23:58
It is highly unlikely that someone whose interest in handguns was purely utilitarian, passionless and logical would spend any time discussing this issue online. (I for one love thinking about everything about guns, from utility to history to aesthetics). Further, dropping various insults, suggesting that anyone with a different opinion doesn't shoot or care about shooting, mocking language ("muh ergos," etc) further emphasizes the fact that this is about some need to reinforce one's opinions rather than the actual merits of the G19. Basically everyone here has granted that the G19 is a fine gun. It certainly is. My G19 G5 has been good. Nothing amazing, but it holds its own against it's competitors. I could knit pick (80's Austrian mechanical engineer ergonomics/ Gen 5 no longer fully compatible with old internals (so much for common parts/logistics argument)/ some holsters no longer work/ etc) , but there is certainly nothing wrong with my G19 (zero BTF issues with my example).
Good gun. If it fits you, and you are satisfied with it then great for you. I enjoy shooting the crap out of all of them...https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4474/37633731040_e871c74ea0_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZkyH6J)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/ZkyH6J) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
We must hang out with different crowds. Sure, I shoot with people who just wanna own guns and be cool (I do), but you can't be 'cool' if you can't shoot what you own. Whether it's for bragging rights or for the love of the sport, they all want to shoot better, because better shooting always trumps gucci guns or gear in coolness points.
As for ergonomics and modifying grips, it's no different than buying gloves or shoes in your size. Even Glock has not only acknowledged that, but deemed it important enough to design interchangeable backstraps on their Gen 4 and 5 pistols.
Nah fam. That only happened because folks got all butt hurt over muh ergos and Glock caved for the sake of market share.
We live in a Glock world, people just need to accept it.
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CanineCombatives
10-26-17, 01:49
The saddest part about these idiotic threads are that the guys who have the most insight will almost never chime in, I'm starting to think there might be a market for life size Gaston Glock sex dolls, anatomically enhanced of course.
noonesshowmonkey
10-26-17, 03:40
Objective facts:
interoperability
holster proliferation
holster variety
magazine proliferation
magazine cost
after market modifications
ease of RMR adaptation
high standard of mechanical reliablity
high standard of mechanical accuracy
magazine compatibility across sub->full size
magazine capacity for platform size
simplicity of design
simplicity of takedown
simplicity of individual maintenance
simplicity of armorer level maintenance
cost per unit
availability of sights
variety of sights
threaded barrel availability
ambidexterity (Gen5 exclusively)
Note that "feel" and "ergonomics" aren't listed on there, as both are entirely subjective. Find me a handgun that does all of those things. Find me a handgun that does enough of those things better. There isn't some kind of nefarious plot at work here: Glocks really just check a shitload of boxes, arguably more than any other design. You either see that, or you don't, or you don't care.
The facts are that the Glock 9mm accomplishes literally every task that a pistol can be asked to do, and does it right out of the box. Hell, as we discovered in Euro's Gen5 thread, just about anything that most of us do to the Glock was integrated into the standard factory pistol. You just buy it, open the box, toss some lube on the bearing surfaces, and then feed it a steady stream of ammo until the apocalypse comes (and then keep on feeding it).
Even the handgun that I might offer as a contender--my own 'pet' in this weird underground, unlicensed hermit crab deathmatch pitfight that is going on--the Walther PPQ M1 just can't compete. The chief advantage that it brings to the table, the supremely wonderful trigger, is paid for with expensive magazines, more complicated sub systems, a lack of interoperability within those systems, a lack of holsters, a lack of available sights, etc. You literally get ONE advantage paid for with a bunch of other features.
I can't speak to any one person's calculus but my own. If your jibblies are all tingly for any specific criteria listed (or those that I missed), and your handgun of choice happens to knock that out of the park, then great. Let's say you're into heavy guns. A 1911 might be for you. Let's say that you really value low magazine capacity. Again, a 1911 is your dog (ermm, hermit crab) in this fight.
Beyond that, "muh ergos" etc. exists because the target and the timer tell the story. Because your agency / unit procurement process makes your decisions. Because there are a ton of extrinsic factors beyond any one individual's control that create the market place that we live in and that Glock currently owns. But, even when just viewed relative to intrinsic factors, the Glock 9mm is a compelling argument just sitting there on the bench, looking at you like some gawd damned tennifered masterpiece, hungry for some 9x19mm ammo.
Some men like their women overweight and greasy. Thank god for those guys, because they leave the fit girls all to me. Different strokes.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-26-17, 06:11
Nah fam. That only happened because folks got all butt hurt over muh ergos and Glock caved for the sake of market share.
We live in a Glock world, people just need to accept it.
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Somewhere along the line, and I’m not sure when “ergonomics” became a buzzword sort of like “tactical,” and has forever ruined the industry.
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grizzlyblake
10-26-17, 06:27
I think there are two different points that folks are attempting to make.
Firstly, that the Glock 19 is everything a 9mm pistol should be. No frills, extremely reliable, doesn't require hardly any maintenance, and for 95% of shooters it is as accurate as the shooter can be. I believe the same about the AK. If the AK was as prominent as the AR in terms of parts availability I would not own an AR. The AK, like the G19, does everything 95% of shooters need it to do and is extremely simple to operate. Anybody can very quickly be taught to run an AK and a G19. A 1911 and an AR takes a bit more time.
Secondly, the stock Glock 19 as a mechanical device, performs above the skillset of 95% of shooters. It would behoove most of the gun population to own a Glock 19 only, and shoot it to the point of extreme proficiency. That's boring though, and the average gun owner (M4C.net is a different group) would rather own ten different handguns and shoot 100 rounds a year, chasing minutia detail differences between guns of different models.
I know multiple guys like this who have a huge range of pistols that they carry in a rotation but almost never shoot. A fancy 1911 in a custom leather OWB for playing dress up, a Sig P238 in a custom leather IWB rig for CC dress up, a few big S&W revolvers with Galco rigs, and maybe a S&W Airlite .357 J frame in a pocket holster that's had one cylinder of .38spl LRN through it for practice. That last one's the one that might actually get carried on occasion but the Crimson Trace laser grip means it doesn't need to be practiced with.
Euro mentioned that he would like a gun shop that only sold 6920s, WMLs, mags and ammo. I'm much more of a pistol shooter since I'm not LE/Mil so I'd like to open my gun shop/ indoor range in a similar fashion. Glock 19s, 17s, and 43s. Kydex holsters. Wilderness Tactical belts. Ameriglo sights. Mags. Cases of ammo. We'd have a milling station set up for Trijicon RMR installation.
I'd offer the Everyday Carry Starter Pack at a deep discount with the purchase of an annual range pass.
http://gunivore.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/gen-5-6-300x194.png
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31be5NQ7%2B0L._SX355_.jpg
https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s320x320/e15/11192975_422555577915268_1510366670_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=OTcyODMxMjI3NzYxNzkwMzg4.2
https://s3.amazonaws.com/mgm-content/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2013/04/10/1430654_01_new_factory_glock_19_15_round__640.jpg
https://s3.amazonaws.com/mgm-content/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2013/03/13/1251482_01_cci_speer_lawman_9mm_147gr_tmj_640.jpg
militarymoron
10-26-17, 07:42
Somewhere along the line, and I’m not sure when “ergonomics” became a buzzword sort of like “tactical,” and has forever ruined the industry.
It's just a word for something to describe that has been happening for centuries to make the tools used by humans more efficient. It hasn't ruined the industry; it's helped grow it.
BuzzinSATX
10-26-17, 07:46
Somewhere along the line, and I’m not sure when “ergonomics” became a buzzword sort of like “tactical,” and has forever ruined the industry.
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Ergonomics isn’t a buzzword, it’s an engineering concept that simply attempts to create a synergistic relationship between a human and an inanimate object. Ergonomics are pretty much embedded in everything. Compare a 1970’s Ford-Chevy half ton truck with a current truck and while the older vehicles are definitely fun and have character, I’ll take a new one all day on a cross country drive, based on comfort. Same with tools like hammers, axes, handsaws, etc.
Ask Magpul if ergonomics are important...or BCM, or LAV... all have products that are designed to replace the standard model based on how humans interact with a product (I.e. Vickers Glock mag release or Magpul AR grip, or BCM short VG, all of which make shooting more comfortable for me)
Glock’s are the most prolific pistol flavor in my safe by far, and for several reasons, but ergonomics isn’t one of them....but I wish it was.
And the Gen 5 mods of Ambi slide lock, no finger grooves, and flared magwell are all ergonomic enhancements. Just like the Gen 4 texture and larger mag release were ergo enhancements over Gen 3’s...
The limitation of non-adjustable ergo enhancements are they rarely work for everyone. But that doesn’t mean they are not beneficial.
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Outlander Systems
10-26-17, 08:22
noonesshowmonkey laid it down with am elegance my surly, crass mouth could not:
Objective facts:
interoperability
holster proliferation
holster variety
magazine proliferation
magazine cost
after market modifications
ease of RMR adaptation
high standard of mechanical reliablity
high standard of mechanical accuracy
magazine compatibility across sub->full size
magazine capacity for platform size
simplicity of design
simplicity of takedown
simplicity of individual maintenance
simplicity of armorer level maintenance
cost per unit
availability of sights
variety of sights
threaded barrel availability
ambidexterity (Gen5 exclusively)
I've personally danced the dance with other platforms. My first handgun upon hitting the ripe age of 21 was an HK USP45T. Once upon a time, I've owned/shot M&Ps, M9s, multiple 1911s, Tanfoglios, Rugers, P99s, VP9s, HK45s, XDs, etc.
My wife is the one who got my ass on the Glock train, and it was a tough pill to swallow.
I can't stand the way a Glock feels in my hand; however, the grip "comfort" and "ergos" have no deleterious byproducts as evidenced through shooting FOR THIS GUY.
I couldn't argue the legitimacy of better results on paper when shooting my wife's Glock, versus the stable of "mo bettah" side irons I had been shooting up to that point. I can literally count on one hand the number of malfs I've had on the Glock 9mm platform through thousands of rounds.
There's a dude in this thread who is putting lead on steel at 250m with a G19; mechanical accuracy isn't a problem with these guns. Parts availability isn't a problem with these guns. Holster availability isn't a problem with these guns. Reliability isn't a problem with these guns. Simplicity of end-user COMPLETE maintenance isn't a problem with these guns. Operation/proper function across a broad range of ammunition types isn't a problem with these guns.
Generally speaking, inconsequential preference items are the "problem" with these guns.
Short, sweet, and bursting with wisdom is this article:
http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/why-glock-why-9mm
When I was 12 years younger, I scoffed at it. As I've matured as a shooter, I realized Jeff was right all along.
BuzzinSATX
10-26-17, 08:22
I think there can be a correlation made between the 6920 and the Glock 9mm
I totally agree with this, and to take it a step beyond, throw in a Remington 870, Ruger 10-22, and a Savage bolt rifle in .308 and you’re pretty much covered for dang near every scenario you can come across in North America.
If you have a minimalist POV, which definitely isn’t a bad thing, you would be well served.
If you like a little variety, we’ll, it might not work for you....which is one reason many of us have different flavors.
I’ve stuck with one woman for the last 27 years, and plan to stick with her (if she’ll keep me) for the next 27...
I’ve had opportunities to try other “brands and models”, but I’m good with what I’ve got. That mindset could bother some of y’all....that’s your opinion.
I think we all have areas in our lives where we like variety, and other areas where we prefer “tried and true”. It’s what makes us individuals.
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After carrying my G19 for ten years I got tired of the weight/bulk during FL summers (8 months/yr) and began preferring da/sa operation.
So it's meant finding something smaller/lighter for "summer" and da/sa.
Shooting more different guns the past few years I've picked up on the Glock annoyances. I suppose years ago I just didn't give it much thought because there wasnt much else that worked like a glock. But now there are reliable pistols that don't have the Glock annoyances.
I totally agree with this, and to take it a step beyond, throw in a Remington 870, Ruger 10-22, and a Savage bolt rifle in .308 and you’re pretty much covered for dang near every scenario you can come across in North America.
If you have a minimalist POV, which definitely isn’t a bad thing, you would be well served.
If you like a little variety, we’ll, it might not work for you....which is one reason many of us have different flavors.
I’ve stuck with one woman for the last 27 years, and plan to stick with her (if she’ll keep me) for the next 27...
I’ve had opportunities to try other “brands and models”, but I’m good with what I’ve got. That mindset could bother some of y’all....that’s your opinion.
I think we all have areas in our lives where we like variety, and other areas where we prefer “tried and true”. It’s what makes us individuals.
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You hit all the staples until you said Savage ;)
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BuzzinSATX
10-26-17, 08:48
You hit all the staples until you said Savage ;)
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LOL! Wouldn’t have mattered if I said Remington, Winchester, Tikka, CZ, Ruger, Weatherby, etc., someone would disagree
[emoji12]
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Outlander Systems
10-26-17, 09:02
No one will disagree with the 10/22. It is The Once and Future King.
LOL! Wouldn’t have mattered if I said Remington, Winchester, Tikka, CZ, Ruger, Weatherby, etc., someone would disagree
[emoji12]
"noonesshowmonkey laid it down with am elegance my surly, crass mouth could not:"
I popped on to say exactly the same thing.
I added a smooth trigger assembly from the 17 and a set of straight 8 sites and I'm good to go with my gen 2 G19.
Andy
Doc Safari
10-26-17, 09:09
People would be better suited to just buying a damn Glock and shooting the thing - taking advantage of the abundant magazines and holsters available - than sniffing around a gun store trying to feel what “fits best in muh hand”.
.
There you go again. How come no one criticizes a 1911 owner who prefers a flat mainspring housing to an arched one, yet if someone says they prefer a Glock 17 to a 19 because of how it fits their hand then all of a sudden they are a gun shop commando or mall ninja?
Doc Safari
10-26-17, 09:13
It is highly unlikely that someone whose interest in handguns was purely utilitarian, passionless and logical would spend any time discussing this issue online.
This is THE most death-dealing and accurate post in this thread.
Eurodriver
10-26-17, 09:29
There you go again. How come no one criticizes a 1911 owner who prefers a flat mainspring housing to an arched one, yet if someone says they prefer a Glock 17 to a 19 because of how it fits their hand then all of a sudden they are a gun shop commando or mall ninja?
Bro.
Ain’t no shame in the Glock 17 game.
Doc Safari
10-26-17, 09:31
Ergonomics isn’t a buzzword, it’s an engineering concept that simply attempts to create a synergistic relationship between a human and an inanimate object. Ergonomics are pretty much embedded in everything. Compare a 1970’s Ford-Chevy half ton truck with a current truck and while the older vehicles are definitely fun and have character, I’ll take a new one all day on a cross country drive, based on comfort. Same with tools like hammers, axes, handsaws, etc.
Ask Magpul if ergonomics are important...or BCM, or LAV... all have products that are designed to replace the standard model based on how humans interact with a product (I.e. Vickers Glock mag release or Magpul AR grip, or BCM short VG, all of which make shooting more comfortable for me)
Glock’s are the most prolific pistol flavor in my safe by far, and for several reasons, but ergonomics isn’t one of them....but I wish it was.
And the Gen 5 mods of Ambi slide lock, no finger grooves, and flared magwell are all ergonomic enhancements. Just like the Gen 4 texture and larger mag release were ergo enhancements over Gen 3’s...
The limitation of non-adjustable ergo enhancements are they rarely work for everyone. But that doesn’t mean they are not beneficial.
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Thank you, JESUS! Hallelujah!
People say they hate the "hump" on a standard M4 grip, but are they called derogatory names for wanting a different grip? No.
Is Larry Vickers a special snowflake pushing gun shop commando gear for designing a better mag release? I think not.
What's wrong with the standard mag release? By the philosophy of some on this thread you should just suck it up and use what's there and not worry about how it fits your hand....or thumb...or whatever.
Why does the Gen 5 Glock NEED a slide release on both sides? Why can't you lefties realize that you're just a gun shop neckbeard for wanting something that fits you instead of a right-hander? (I rant rhetorically).
I shot IDPA matches for nearly four years. I shot thousands of rounds through Glock 17's, 19's, 22's, Springfield 1911's, and even Smith revolvers. Ergos DO matter when you have a timer going. And guess what: in an HD situation you have a timer going as well.
The perfect pistol (for me) at that time would have been a 1911 with Glock reliability. There ain't no such animal. Although my times and accuracy were faster with a 1911, it had other issues of reliability that made me reluctantly go back to Glock. The G19 may be the ultimate fighting handgun, but the G17 grip is more of a fulcrum that lets me shoot a Glock nearly as fast as a 1911. It's not voodoo. It's not imagination. It's experience and knowing what works. If I were genuinely the type of person who buys guns just to have and show off (and not shoot much), I'd have to listen to every naysayer on this thread who says ergos don't matter. A pox on ya! :laugh:
I prefer XS Big Dot sights too. I suppose that makes me a mall ninja because I prefer them over Novak, Heinie, or whatever Gucci brand name you want to drop.
What works, works, and I will never be ashamed of having some "outside the mainstream" preferences because I know from years of experience and many, many timed matches what works for ME.
Pics? Explanation?
That seems like the Detonics Streetmaster. Not knocking as it seems like a neat idea.Here is a pic with a 17 mag in it
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171026/0c0ae951bfb8165115b7ed6ba6f9c6bd.jpg
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There you go again. How come no one criticizes a 1911 owner who prefers a flat mainspring housing to an arched one, yet if someone says they prefer a Glock 17 to a 19 because of how it fits their hand then all of a sudden they are a gun shop commando or mall ninja?
I didn't read that at all into Eurodriver's post. Anything good said about the G19 applies to the G17, it's just in a slightly larger package.
Andy
The commonality of Glock really helps it to continue to reign.
The Walther PPQ is that good, I have two of them. I often use it as a carry gun, but I'm still mostly Glock. Why? Well certainly not becuase the Glock is a better gun in any way, but because I have a ton of Glock stuff, and people make a ton of glock stuff. Mags, sites, holsters, and the like. There is more for Glock than anything else.
Are faster splits "amateur hour bullshit"?
Are faster reloads "amateur hour bullshit"?
Is better accuracy "amateur hour bullshit"?
So if one achieves better results in these metrics with something other than Glock, why should they shoot Glock?
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI would honestly say yes to those questions because we are probably talking .1 seconds or something to that affect. I've never met anyone who was so inaccurate with a glock that they still couldn't win a gunfight with it.
With that being said I don't care what anyone shoots. I am just saying that anyone can be a good shooter with a glock.
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Ergonomics and “feel” are two different things.
Not reaching controls, or having an issue that affects drill times is an ergonomic issue, and needs addressed.
The gun feeling comfortable is not an issue, and gets way to much attention in and of itself. I don’t think I’ve ever felt “comfortable” since I started gripping a pistol correctly, anymore than I am comfortable while doing deadlifts.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-26-17, 09:51
Ergonomics isn’t a buzzword, it’s an engineering concept that simply attempts to create a synergistic relationship between a human and an inanimate object. Ergonomics are pretty much embedded in everything. Compare a 1970’s Ford-Chevy half ton truck with a current truck and while the older vehicles are definitely fun and have character, I’ll take a new one all day on a cross country drive, based on comfort. Same with tools like hammers, axes, handsaws, etc.
Ask Magpul if ergonomics are important...or BCM, or LAV... all have products that are designed to replace the standard model based on how humans interact with a product (I.e. Vickers Glock mag release or Magpul AR grip, or BCM short VG, all of which make shooting more comfortable for me)
Glock’s are the most prolific pistol flavor in my safe by far, and for several reasons, but ergonomics isn’t one of them....but I wish it was.
And the Gen 5 mods of Ambi slide lock, no finger grooves, and flared magwell are all ergonomic enhancements. Just like the Gen 4 texture and larger mag release were ergo enhancements over Gen 3’s...
The limitation of non-adjustable ergo enhancements are they rarely work for everyone. But that doesn’t mean they are not beneficial.
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I’m aware of what ergonomics is, thank you for explaining, though. Ergonomics, in the shooting community, is absolutely a buzzword. Between Glock, Sig, HK, S&W, Springfield, Beretta and CZ (just to name a few) I do not know of any duty size handgun who’s ergonomics are different enough that it sets one apart from the other in terms of shootability. So yes, it’s a buzz word, because manufacturers tout their “superior ergonomics” as a selling point, and pot bellied neck beards on gun boards argue about it as though it makes any quantifiable difference when most of them probably can’t hit 8” steel at 25 yards with a 9mm 1911.
Edit: I’m a left handed shooter with fairly large hands. I shoot a Glock 19. The mag release and slide lock are on the wrong side and the finger grooves don’t line up for me, yet somehow I shoot a Glock 19 exceedingly well... I wonder how this is?
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Doc Safari
10-26-17, 09:54
Ergonomics and “feel” are two different things.
Not reaching controls, or having an issue that affects drill times is an ergonomic issue, and needs addressed.
The gun feeling comfortable is not an issue, and gets way to much attention in and of itself. I don’t think I’ve ever felt “comfortable” since I started gripping a pistol correctly, anymore than I am comfortable while doing deadlifts.
Well, then I will buy your explanation and say that when I use the terms "comfortable" or "how it fits my hand", for me comfortable and ergonomics are the same thing, and maybe that's where some of the dispute lies. By your definition there's no such thing as an "uncomfortable" grip, but there are grips that allow one better use of the pistol, so I will say that I think you are correct and I should have been referring to the G17 grip as more ergonomic for me than the G19 grip and I should have stayed the Hell away from the word "comfortable" or the talk of "how it fits my hand" from the outset because a lot of people take it the wrong way. So thank you for that. It clears up a lot.
Outlander Systems
10-26-17, 10:30
The Glock pistols feel like bricks in my hand; however this feeling of coziness has not exhibited any performance problems in regards to shooting. I would assert that they shoot well, in spite of the shitty feel in the hand.
Well, then I will buy your explanation and say that when I use the terms "comfortable" or "how it fits my hand", for me comfortable and ergonomics are the same thing, and maybe that's where some of the dispute lies. By your definition there's no such thing as an "uncomfortable" grip, but there are grips that allow one better use of the pistol, so I will say that I think you are correct and I should have been referring to the G17 grip as more ergonomic for me than the G19 grip and I should have stayed the Hell away from the word "comfortable" or the talk of "how it fits my hand" from the outset because a lot of people take it the wrong way. So thank you for that. It clears up a lot.
militarymoron
10-26-17, 10:33
Edit: I’m a left handed shooter with fairly large hands. I shoot a Glock 19. The mag release and slide lock are on the wrong side and the finger grooves don’t line up for me, yet somehow I shoot a Glock 19 exceedingly well... I wonder how this is?
Are you saying that you'd be unable to manipulate it better with an ambi Gen 5?
Here is a pic with a 17 mag in it
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171026/0c0ae951bfb8165115b7ed6ba6f9c6bd.jpg
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I personally dont like aggro stippling but that looks neat.
I approve!
90% of any of my no shit, "this is your job" handgunnery has been done with all kinds of guns but a Glock. A glock would have been nice but not having it never slowed me down.
I think the thesis people are overlooking is that it is an easier gun to deal with and get into. And that people chase the gun dragon at times.
It feels almost like a college football discussion.
I like my Glock. I'm in a good place. Again, when I decide to Walk the Earth in my mural van and blast Rush all day going on adventures then likely all I am taking is a Glock, a snubbie .38, and a Winchester 1894.....with feathers and carvings in the stock.
Because I wont care about guns at that point. I barely care now
Mr. Goodtimes
10-26-17, 11:23
Are you saying that you'd be unable to manipulate it better with an ambi Gen 5?
No, I’m saying that any real world gains will likely be difficult to really quantify. Things like competition and videos of Chris Costa and other people doing gun fu on IG give us this expectation that if we can’t reload a gun and get back on target in .000000000000231 seconds then we’re going to die in a real gun fight.
I used to shoot a P30... likely the most ergonomically correct and left handed friendly service pistol in existence. I now shoot a G19 Gen 4. My times at matches have steadily improved over the years. Why? Because I’ve worried less about the “feel” and “ergos” of my pistol and more about shooting it often. I like the Gen 5, I’ll wager it’s the best Glock produced to date, however I’m going to spend $500 on more ammo before I spend $500 on a gun thats virtually identical to the one I have save for a few “ergonomic” enhancements.
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Outlander Systems
10-26-17, 11:33
Amen. I like you, dude.
No, I’m saying that any real world gains will likely be difficult to really quantify. Things like competition and videos of Chris Costa and other people doing gun fu on IG give us this expectation that if we can’t reload a gun and get back on target in .000000000000231 seconds then we’re going to die in a real gun fight.
I used to shoot a P30... likely the most ergonomically correct and left handed friendly service pistol in existence. I now shoot a G19 Gen 4. My times at matches have steadily improved over the years. Why? Because I’ve worried less about the “feel” and “ergos” of my pistol and more about shooting it often. I like the Gen 5, I’ll wager it’s the best Glock produced to date, however I’m going to spend $500 on more ammo before I spend $500 on a gun thats virtually identical to the one I have save for a few “ergonomic” enhancements.
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Eurodriver
10-26-17, 11:35
Amen. I like you, dude.
I agree with his point.
But I just spent $1,300 on a Gen5 19, Type 2 RMR, and a milling job :(
Outlander Systems
10-26-17, 11:37
**** it. You're that far in might as well get it stippled.
I agree with his point.
But I just spent $1,300 on a Gen5 19, Type 2 RMR, and a milling job :(
Doc Safari
10-26-17, 11:38
I like the Gen 5, I’ll wager it’s the best Glock produced to date, however I’m going to spend $500 on more ammo before I spend $500 on a gun thats virtually identical to the one I have save for a few “ergonomic” enhancements.
I'll agree with this to the extent that at some point you have to stick with what you're used to instead of having to adopt the "latest and greatest" improvements. I mistakenly thought it was a good thing to adopt the Gen 5, but after shooting one with an unfamiliar trigger I went back to the Gen 4 because I'm used to it. I'd rather stay in practice with that and not try to get used to something new even if it's technically "better".
Viable. Given the context of this discussion, and we are strictly discussing a no-bullshit, gunfighting pistol, the Glock 9mms are it. The end.
If dudes are more concerned with Instagram than slinging bullets downrange, there are plenty of more "viable" options out there.
IDK what triggered you, but you came out of the gate foaming at the mouth with this. I didn't see anyone talking about fashion or whatever other assumptions you're making. Having options available in a free market really makes you this angry? Switch to decaf.
Agreed Glocks check most boxes, but I stop listening when anyone talks with the type of finality you are. Something else other than a Glock might work better for other people, end of story. There's great options out there without getting into the crap (XDs, etc.)
4 years ago my BIL bought a 9mm M&P, I took him out to show him the ropes and Jesus I shot better with that out of the box than I ever did with any Glock after thousands of rounds of work. More accurate and much faster with follow-up. Some of the discussion here leads me to believe that even in the face of something working better for me, I should apparently just take a swig of Glock koolaide and ignore it. :confused:
Between work, volunteer EMS, fathering some ankle-biters, etc. I don't have all the time in the world to shoot. So anything that helps me be better, I'm gonna go with it. And no, it won't affect my Instagram following one way or the other.
It's just a word for something to describe that has been happening for centuries to make the tools used by humans more efficient. It hasn't ruined the industry; it's helped grow it.
Completely agree.
Outlander Systems
10-26-17, 12:00
For you ergo guys.
How many of you are running aftermarket/performance steering wheels in your vics? Genuinely curious.
For you ergo guys.
How many of you are running aftermarket/performance steering wheels in your vics? Genuinely curious.
Show me where I mentioned ergos.
But I'll bite, I had a Audi TT with top end build/larger turbo, water-meth, etc. that ran circuit and time attack-type stuff...had an aftermarket wheel. Sparco I believe. Smaller and better traction (vs stock leather wheel). Gloves bit better on the suede-like alcantara.
next question?
If I wasn't so heavily invested in Glock my M&P could easily take over as my carry gun. It still may before too long. I just shoot them better and my tricked out IDPA gun is a M&P.
Outlander Systems
10-26-17, 12:14
If I was directly addressing you, it would have been quoted.
Show me where I mentioned ergos.
But I'll bite, I had a Audi TT with top end build/larger turbo, water-meth, etc. that ran circuit and time attack-type stuff...had an aftermarket wheel. Sparco I believe. Smaller and better traction (vs stock leather wheel). Gloves bit better on the suede-like alcantara.
next question?
I'll agree with this to the extent that at some point you have to stick with what you're used to instead of having to adopt the "latest and greatest" improvements. I mistakenly thought it was a good thing to adopt the Gen 5, but after shooting one with an unfamiliar trigger I went back to the Gen 4 because I'm used to it. I'd rather stay in practice with that and not try to get used to something new even if it's technically "better".
No doubt, there’s a huge argument to be made for familiarity.
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I'll agree with this to the extent that at some point you have to stick with what you're used to instead of having to adopt the "latest and greatest" improvements. I mistakenly thought it was a good thing to adopt the Gen 5, but after shooting one with an unfamiliar trigger I went back to the Gen 4 because I'm used to it. I'd rather stay in practice with that and not try to get used to something new even if it's technically "better".
Crap. I've had the same G22 for like 15 years. I had to stipple it because it was so worn and slick. I think I'm due for my annual 50 round self administered qualification. (no joke)
Eurodriver
10-26-17, 12:30
If I wasn't so heavily invested in Glock my M&P could easily take over as my carry gun. It still may before too long. I just shoot them better and my tricked out IDPA gun is a M&P.
This is where I’m at. People wanna act like I’m some investor for Glock or something. I don’t get it.
I’ve said it on here a dozen times at least - when a pistol comes around that will provide a benefit outweighing the cost of selling all of my Glock 19s and all of my Glock 19 magazines and all of my Glock 19 holsters I will gladly do it. I am not married to Glock. But I don’t see the P320 or M&P doing anything that’s worth losing $2,000 in G19s and mags. They can’t even figure out the part about getting the gun to shoot straight or not fire when dropped.
I’d love to get me some P30 with LEM triggers in my life, but one P30 with 6 mags is like $1,100. That’s a G19 Gen 5, 20 magazines and a case of ammo.
A sobering thought:
All we ever are is a product of our bad habits, delusions, brainwashing, and blind hero worship.
Like in general. This is why we are killing our brothers and killing the Earf(Yes, I said Earf). And not only that but killing ourselves.
This thread makes me emo now.
Peace.
Doc Safari
10-26-17, 13:03
For you ergo guys.
How many of you are running aftermarket/performance steering wheels in your vics? Genuinely curious.
I'll address the issue indirectly: I drive either Jeeps or pickups because I get in and out of them easier and I have more leg room once I'm behind the wheel.
Will you see me driving a Nissan Sentra, Honda Civic, or Toyota Camry? Not likely, because (WAIT FOR IT)...."they don't fit me as well." I know I will have trouble driving any of them with optimum efficiency, even though technically they get me to the destination just as well as something else.
Those of you who argue the G19 is fine with its limitations and you'll use it as is and not complain, focusing instead on putting practice rounds downrage with speed and accuracy, I'll say, "Fine. Nothing wrong with that."
But I will counter with, "I can live on MRE's. They are nutritious and will keep me alive. But even though I CAN live on MRE's, I choose not to." As long as there is a Glock (re: the 17) that has better ergos (for me) than the 19, then I will pick the 17 every time.
I can and have shot thousands of rounds through 17's and 19's. I refer to 1998 as "the year of the Glock 19" because I had four of them with different sights, levels of wear, etc. I thought the 19 was my "go-to" gun back then. But then one day I joined an IDPA club and found that I held onto the 17 better during "run and gun" matches and shot it better and faster than I shot the 19.
So, even though I can "live" on the 19, I choose not to. I choose the 17 instead.
noonesshowmonkey
10-26-17, 14:07
The reason that 'muh ergos' is a thing is that ergonomics DO NOT DIRECTLY EQUATE TO PERFORMANCE, despite the fact that people like them.
Feeling good and performing well are two different things.
I am a man driven by Logos over Pathos, by Performance over Comfort. Not everyone is, and that's fine. I'm not a cup of tea to be with (though my partner/work-wife gets along with me pretty well; then again, 12 years in the USMC teaches a man to tolerate a great deal) all of the time. If everyone was wired up the same, we'd be in a real mess.
But what I won't countenance is that 'feel' makes an objective better anything. Subjectively, sure. But the reality--as in our reality, any tangible reality--comes down to the ability to measure stuff. We can measure split times, we can measure groups, we can compare similar / equivalent features.
Gun culture typically worships Ego above all else, like most forms of human activity. Guns, however, are killing machines. They are cold hunks of metal that don't give a crap what you think about them (they're inanimate, after all, no matter how much you personify them or impress your own spirit into them), and have one task: kill stuff. All other tasks are derivative.
When the task is Kill Stuff, performance matters in a way that it probably never has and likely never will for the user. This pushes those of us with those jobs / experiences to value objective reason, ie measurable PERFORMANCE, over all else. And honestly, ergos are basically at the bottom of the list of shit that matters to me. I have NO IDEA how my trigger or stippling job or grip angle feel after I've done 50 KB swings and then go to get on target for time. No. Idea. But, I can look at the time and the hits and tell you if I did well / poorly. I can diagnose the target and determine what my failure points were. Hint: they are all me, and basically never the gun, unless the gun malfunctions (and Glocks essentially never do on a statistically relevant timeline).
So, objectively, there is very little about ergos that impact what I do with my weapon(s) in my day to day enough for that to matter more than any of the things that I listed in my original post (forgetting stuff like Weight, Adaptability w/ back straps, and a few others, I am sure). If you don't answer to the high standard of Performance At All Costs, ie armed professional shit, then whatever man. I honestly have nothing against anyone that carries other firearms. My grandfather swears by his Colt National Match 1911 and Bersa .380 (despite the fact that both stovepipe on the regular), my uncle by his Kimber Commander (despite the fact that a Glock 26 gives you twice as many bangs), etc. You do you. This is America.
But the Glock 9mm is the Once & Future King by essentially any objective measurement available.
How a given forum poster handles the existential confusion of people not being able to see that, ie to see objective reality, differs. The world is a big place.
I'm going to go to the gym and the range to go work on Objective Reality shit.
Out.
BuzzinSATX
10-26-17, 14:33
I’m aware of what ergonomics is, thank you for explaining, though. Ergonomics, in the shooting community, is absolutely a buzzword. Between Glock, Sig, HK, S&W, Springfield, Beretta and CZ (just to name a few) I do not know of any duty size handgun who’s ergonomics are different enough that it sets one apart from the other in terms of shootability. So yes, it’s a buzz word, because manufacturers tout their “superior ergonomics” as a selling point...
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Okay, sure....I agree it’s a way of marketing to the masses, and like most current “gun terms”, probably more abused than it should be, partly because of the plethora of very good options available today. From Glock and HK to CZ and Walther, there are loads of great guns to choose from (and some not so great choices).
But ergonomics is how we differentiate and buy lots of stuff, including furniture, footwear, sports gear, tools, etc. and based on how a pistol fits your grip could weigh heavily in someone’s decision when there are different fit and comfort levels.
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BuzzinSATX
10-26-17, 14:42
For you ergo guys.
How many of you are running aftermarket/performance steering wheels in your vics? Genuinely curious.
LOL! I have cushioned, ergonomically pleasing aftermarket grips on my Fuji mountain bike along with a much more comfortable saddle (seat) on it as well...does that count?
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Ergonomics is a buzzword? No, it's not about how it "feels" but how it functions.
Does one have to break master grip with the strong hand to drop the magazine? Is the slide release in a spot that is awkward and slower to activate? Is there an area on the gun that catches magazines which makes reloads slower? How does the gun point? Can I shoot the gun with my winter gloves on? Those things are the ergonomics that matter.
For instance, the H&K magazine release allows me to keep my master grip on the gun while a Glock requires me to roll the gun and break my wrist. I'm 0.5 seconds faster on a slide lock reload on my H&K compared to my G19. This is a measurable metric due to ergonomics. Not feels.
But Glock also has ergonomics down. They conceal and carry easily. They manage to keep high round counts in small packages.
When a company gets ergonomics AND logistics down as pat as Glock, they will be king.
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I agree with his point.
But I just spent $1,300 on a Gen5 19, Type 2 RMR, and a milling job :(
No reason to frown. I've got an RMR waiting on a new gun and I don't yet own a Gen 5.
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This is where I’m at. People wanna act like I’m some investor for Glock or something. I don’t get it.
I’ve said it on here a dozen times at least - when a pistol comes around that will provide a benefit outweighing the cost of selling all of my Glock 19s and all of my Glock 19 magazines and all of my Glock 19 holsters I will gladly do it. I am not married to Glock. But I don’t see the P320 or M&P doing anything that’s worth losing $2,000 in G19s and mags. They can’t even figure out the part about getting the gun to shoot straight or not fire when dropped.
I’d love to get me some P30 with LEM triggers in my life, but one P30 with 6 mags is like $1,100. That’s a G19 Gen 5, 20 magazines and a case of ammo.
Yes, you do. The P30 V1 is my favorite system. The reset is a little long but you get used to it. My P30L V1 9mm is my go to for classes and such. A little over 19k though it and it's still my favorite.
militarymoron
10-26-17, 16:32
The reason that 'muh ergos' is a thing is that ergonomics DO NOT DIRECTLY EQUATE TO PERFORMANCE, despite the fact that people like them.
Feeling good and performing well are two different things.
Actually, 'Ergonomics' IS about performance and efficiency, foremost. It's about optimizing products for human use to make them more efficient so they can PERFORM better. This includes locating a safety where you can reach or manipulate it properly, etc. vs one that is awkward to use. Comfort can be one of the many factors that affect performance but it is definitely not to be misunderstood as the sole purpose of ergonomics.
The 19 is yet to match my Shield.....much less be king of anything.
People only buy pistols that aren’t Glock 9mms because they want to be different - a sobering thought considering their life may hang in the balance.
”
Didn't take long for the glocker patented "your funeral" comment.
Glock.
The end.
Next up the old "Just buy a glock" fallback.
My preference is for the G17 as well, only because it's still relatively compact for a "full-sized" handgun.
The differences are irrelevant; if you want a 9mm, the only viable options on the ****ing planet are Glocks.
Followed by the "There's only one" rule
But I would trust a Glock to go bang every time I pull the trigger.
And finally the implied "only glocks go bang every time" myth
Cool bro.
I don't live in Indochina, so when the local Walgreens starts carrying CZ mags instead of Glock mags, I'll be sure to check out the CZ.
Followed up by the famous "I can buy mags and parts from a vending machine" anywhere on algores green earf.
PrivateCitizen
10-26-17, 16:55
The 19 is yet to match my Shield.....much less be king of anything.
Thanks for that and your twitter feed of replies.
An extra thanks for actually reading the initial post and offering a thoughtful reply.
You'll notice nothing about the initial post was about a Glock being better but rather why is it still on top in terms of use/success and what will it take for a competitor to unseat it.
The 19 is yet to match my Shield.....much less be king of anything.
Says the guy who thinks the Shield is the best thing ever? Give me a break.
Also, please learn to multi-quote instead of spamming the board with half a page of ignorant responses.
Outlander Systems
10-26-17, 17:17
Since the signal is back...
Exactly. Another poster brought up that it would take something spectacular to jump platforms. I've probably got somewhere around $700 tied up in holsters alone.
The singular issue brought up in this thread is that, despite countless "Next Big Things" no one's delivered anything more than a meh. It's like the endless attempts at supplanting the M4. When integrally suppressed, concealable, RDS-equipped, reliable gatpieces are a common thing, I'll probably bounce off Glock. Until then, for this guy, nothing's impressed me enough to unass a significant investment in a platform.
Thanks for that and your twitter feed of replies.
An extra thanks for actually reading the initial post and offering a thoughtful reply.
You'll notice nothing about the initial post was about a Glock being better but rather why is it still on top in terms of use/success and what will it take for a competitor to unseat it.
I think a couple of the reasons that Glock reigns supreme - if you think that way - was it's early acceptance and adoption by the majority of police agencies in the United States.
.
A somewhat weakened version of "Cops shoot them and so should you."
With the M4, yes better systems are out there, but nothing to justify the change. Same with Glock. But if you're not invested already, all the Glock has going for it is logistics and blowhards on the internet spewing James Yeager lines about all guns being Glocks.
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noonesshowmonkey
10-26-17, 17:31
Actually, 'Ergonomics' IS about performance and efficiency, foremost. It's about optimizing products for human use to make them more efficient so they can PERFORM better. This includes locating a safety where you can reach or manipulate it properly, etc. vs one that is awkward to use. Comfort can be one of the many factors that affect performance but it is definitely not to be misunderstood as the sole purpose of ergonomics.
If only that was the common understanding of the terminology. Mostly, people go on and on about 'what fits YOUR hand' or whatever gunstore, shitass nonsense. Most of the baseline 'feel' crap 1) responds to training and 2) is only an issue if it directly inhibits your ability to operate the weapon system.
Once I can shoot my handgun to the redline of my capabilities, and I've trained under stress, for time, for score, and can say clearly that XYZ are limiting factors, ONLY THEN would I be inclined to begin to look for actual solutions to actual problems. IE real ergonomics.
After running a bunch of 2-reload-2 and FAST drills for time and score, I clearly saw that my reload speed was lacking with my Glock 19. The issue under load was that I could not actuate the magazine release reliably due to an incredibly high thumbs grip putting my dominant thumb out of position to easily manipulate it. This is also an issue on my work gun. I recently picked up a Vickers RTF2, and after installing the magazine release and slide stop, it was an 'AH HAH!' moment. I needed not just the Gen4 larger pad, but a Vickers style magazine release that sat proud of the frame a bit farther, making it easier for me to actuate under stress, and especially with gloves.
THAT is a clearly quantitative problem, and an ergonomic solution that leads to direct improvement in performance.
That is not the same thing as saying, 'but but but, I like the way it feels in muh hand.'
Outlander Systems
10-26-17, 17:38
Piggy-bscking off the above I think some dudes are inferring ergos to be a critique of actually selecting a firearm that can be operated BY YOU.
I am, and I believe noonesshowmonkey is as well, referring to ergonomics as the catch all for "feels good man." Not ergos in terms of a weapon capable of being operated. If I flat out can't reach the trigger, it doesn't matter how great a gun is.
I'm a proud Glock 19 fanboy because it's always felt perfect in my hands, and I've always shot it better than other handguns. It was actually the first gun I bought; I purchased a Gen 4 the day I turned 21, so it will always have a special place in my heart for that reason alone. When you fully strip and compare Glocks and "Glock killers" you notice almost without exception that the Glock is vastly simpler. I think Gaston hit a home run the first time around, and every subsequent striker fired pistol has had to be more complex in its design in order to avoid infringing the Glock design. For example, I find it fascinating that the Glock trigger also doubles as a cocking indicator, and the extractor doubles as a tactile loaded chamber indicator, and the striker block safety doubles as a retainer for the extractor. On other pistols these are often separate parts with additional roll pins. In my opinion the simplicity of the Glock is what makes it so unbelievably reliable.
Granted, the trigger is middle of the road, you're not supposed to shoot lead in a factory barrel, the plastic sights belong on a squirt gun, and the MBS is not as well thought out as other designs, but my favorite things about the pistol are:
reliability
size/capacity ratio (there is no pistol I know of that is the same size or smaller and holds 15+1, not even the M&P 2.0c)
simplicity
NIB factory mags under $20
weight
available G18 magazine (my favorite way to end the capacity debate when my dad brags about his XD(M) having 19 round magazines)
holster variety is as good as it gets
aftermarket sight options are endless (tbh I'll probably always choose Trijicon HDs)
In short, the Glock killers usually beat the G19 in one or two areas, but it's never a clean sweep. The CZ P10c seems promising (not surprising because it's the closest to the Glock design), but it's also 3 oz heavier.
2- None of them are simpler than the Glock. None of them are as easy to work on. None of them have the aftermarket factory support for spare parts.
But self-proclaimed experts always like to start arguments about how "real hunters" only use 270 or 30-06 or 22-250 or 300 Win Mag or 7mm or whatever when hunting elk, when the simple fact is that the gun and ammunition are all but irrelevant so long as they are good enough and the only question is whether or not the person pulling the trigger has sufficient skill. The same is true of handguns.
And at last the ever loved "Glocks only have 3 moving parts, and you can disassemble them with a toothpick"
As for using a 22-250 on Elk, just say no...LOL I've taken dozens of whitetails with the sako in my youth, but my pet reload is the 7mm08 these days.
Which makes me ask...what do glockers do for Rifles and Shotguns?
militarymoron
10-26-17, 17:57
If only that was the common understanding of the terminology. Mostly, people go on and on about 'what fits YOUR hand' or whatever gunstore, shitass nonsense. Most of the baseline 'feel' crap 1) responds to training and 2) is only an issue if it directly inhibits your ability to operate the weapon system.
<snip>
That is not the same thing as saying, 'but but but, I like the way it feels in muh hand.'
Piggy-bscking off the above I think some dudes are inferring ergos to be a critique of actually selecting a firearm that can be operated BY YOU.
I am, and I believe noonesshowmonkey is as well, referring to ergonomics as the catch all for "feels good man." Not ergos in terms of a weapon capable of being operated. If I flat out can't reach the trigger, it doesn't matter how great a gun is.
I think we're all on the same page then - people do misuse the term, so it might have lost some of its true meaning to the uninformed, and needed clarification here. It's definitely not a catch-all for 'feels good'. Companies spend $$$ on ergos each year and it's not just about making their employees comfortable, unless that comfort can lead to better work efficiency, less time lost from injuries, etc etc. It's all about the bottom line, and a return on investment.
When I think of ergonomics applied to firearms from a design standpoint, I think more about the placement of the controls or accessories, lever travel, angle of rotation of safeties, grip texture etc etc.
PrivateCitizen
10-26-17, 17:57
And at last the ever loved "Glocks only have 3 moving parts, and you can disassemble them with a toothpick"
As for using a 22-250 on Elk, just say no...LOL I've taken dozens of whitetails with the sako in my youth, but my pet reload is the 7mm08 these days.
Which makes me ask...what do glockers do for Rifles and Shotguns?
If you want to continually spam this thread with nothing that resembles constructive thinking, kindly piss-off and start your own.
Which makes me ask...what do glockers do for Rifles and Shotguns?
Colt 6920 and old Remington 870s
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militarymoron
10-26-17, 18:00
Which makes me ask...what do glockers do for Rifles and Shotguns?
DI AR-15, Rem 870 (older ones, not the newer ones)
If you want to continually spam this thread with nothing that resembles constructive thinking, kindly piss-off and start your own.
You make me sad.
Outlander Systems
10-26-17, 18:24
Roger that; glad we all finally cut through the confusion.
Comfort is probably the more appropriate term. Unfortunately, ergos has become a euphemism for comfort in the last few years.
I think we're all on the same page then - people do misuse the term, so it might have lost some of its true meaning to the uninformed, and needed clarification here. It's definitely not a catch-all for 'feels good'. Companies spend $$$ on ergos each year and it's not just about making their employees comfortable, unless that comfort can lead to better work efficiency, less time lost from injuries, etc etc. It's all about the bottom line, and a return on investment.
When I think of ergonomics applied to firearms from a design standpoint, I think more about the placement of the controls or accessories, lever travel, angle of rotation of safeties, grip texture etc etc.
For you ergo guys.
How many of you are running aftermarket/performance steering wheels in your vics? Genuinely curious.
Well, first I learned to actually drive.......
Outlander Systems
10-26-17, 18:50
:p
Pretty much. 9.9/10 I'm the biggest impediment to my own performance.
Well, first I learned to actually drive.......
militarymoron
10-26-17, 18:57
Warning: "amateur hour" ahead.
Disclaimer: I'm not a professional. I do not carry a gun for a living. I'm a long time hobbyist/enthusiast, student of firearms. If that qualifies me as an amateur, I proudly accept that term.
I've been relatively neutral in this thread, and others, as my non-paid job here as a mod is to try to keep things on a technical track. That being said, the G19 has been, and still is, the 'king' for me, but not in stock form. As an engineer, I have a natural tendency to try to make improvements, however incremental, and over the years, have learned what works better for me and what doesn't. If I think that a change to the gun will help me shoot better without firing a shot, I'll try it out. But the decision to make that change is based on many rounds downrange.
I've owned a few pistols - my first was a Colt Officer's .45 which I bought in 1986. Because I wanted a .45. The second one I bought was the G19 you see below in 1989, a year after it was introduced. Over the years, I bought more full size 1911.45s (because 'merica), Berettas (because Lethal Weapon), BHPs (because SAS), Sigs, an M&P (because 'Glock-killer'), more Glocks (19's, 34, 17, 24c...) etc. However, I found that when I wanted to do well in a pistol class, or just a fun shoot with my buds, I kept coming back to the G19 because I shot it better than any other pistol I owned. When people ask me 'what gun should I get?' I say G19. Buy a G19 first, and then any other gun you want after. If I had to give up all my pistols and pick one, it'd be one of my G19's. It's not the best gun in any one thing, but it's the best one for me overall. In other words, it scores the best average on my own mental 'point' list.
The particular G19 below has gone through a lot of range sessions, camping trips, etc with me, but I've made modifications to it over the years, as I learned about things that might make it even better for me.
The gen 2 texture got a bit slippery when my hands got sweaty, which was every time I went shooting. Before professional grip modifications were a thing, I did my own dremel/soldering iron ERGONOMIC modification. I shaped the grip to fit my womanly-small hands better, did a trigger guard undercut and support hand cut, and stippled the crap out of it. I will definitely not earn aesthetic cool guy Gucci Glock points, but it was an immediate improvement in grip security and more pleasurable to shoot (especially the trigger guard undercut). Mag well scallops for my old non-drop free mags. Stock trigger with '-' connector. Mag release rounded off because I'm a lefty. A few years back, I gave it my own alumahyde spray paint job to match my Multicam lederhosen. Warren Tactical sights when they came out. The Vickers slide stop and slide racker were later improvements that made a big difference to me.
So, after 28 years and some incremental changes (and a few new springs) over the years, this G19 is still one of my favourite guns to have around. Is it pretty? No. In my eyes, it's a beauty.
https://i.imgur.com/24qPWND.jpg
The only thing amateur hour in this thread are the personal attacks. Pretty hard to argue that the 19 isn't the king of the hill, and with the Gen 5 probably will stay that way.
If you get triggered by someone going a different route to the point of insulting non 19 shooters, you have a dick up the ass that needs medical attention. Some weird shit going on in this thread.
Sorry to be lazy: https://giphy.com/gifs/golf-clap-picard-ycCeJcFZBzeF2
Outlander Systems
10-26-17, 19:03
MM, that's a solid looking weapon right there and proof that the platform's shortcomings in universality can be overcome when the user know what he or she needs to overcome the problems on an individual basis.
I still have a Gen3 laying around, and like you, I'm a sweaty handed bastard.
A somewhat weakened version of "Cops shoot them and so should you."
Read with context in mind. The if you think that way is kind of important to the overall message.
I was pointing out that Glock initially had a lot of market exposure due to that fact. It is what it is, or, in this case, was what it was.
IMO, had S&W come out with the M&P at the same time Glock was first hitting the American market, we would probably be telling a different story now, they (S&W) would have continued to carry the police market, and Glock wouldn't have flourished as it has.
The police market gave Glock it's toe-hold in the American market, which they then exploited.
I'll be the first to admit the reason that I bought my first Glock's was because well over half the folks I trained were using them. At that point it would have been kind of self-defeating to stick with the DA/SA platform. I've never been one that felt an instructor should carry anything different than those he/she is instructing.
This thread took a toxic turn but....I want to build on what 26 is saying.
For a long time, Gen 3 S&Ws were the king of the LE world. Some of you may have carried them. I would tell a younger/newer person that they would be like the M-14 to the Glock's M-16.
S&W guns put a lot of people in the ground. Some people worked some less than fun areas with a single stack Smith .45.
I remember when Glocks still had a 'stigma' that was ultimately unfounded. I got a Glock young because I was turned on by an old timer who forgot more about guns and shooting people than most will ever know beginning from Vietnam to the 2000s.
I also at certain points have been saddled with a P226, a Beretta, and the M&P. Any Glock I toted was a BUG or a Mother May I.
I have used a Smith in anger way more than a Glock.
You gotta understand. Glocks were frowned upon by armorers, instructors, etc. at that point. Based mostly on their opinion. Baby Brownings and Colt 1903s got an easy pass for approval as a BUG while a Glock got you a double take. Yet the blooded by that point had either G26s or G30s. Glocks just work. But like it was so looked down upon.
And I have seen people go from "never Glock" to now "nothing but Glock".
And I just wanted stuff that work. I kept oil in my case to lube my gun Every. Time. I. Went. 10-8.
It got a full strip, wipe, and lube after any shift spent in rain. Some guys would put plastic bags over the gun to keep water off it.
Glocks took a lot of that extra mainte ance away to an extent. People dont worry so much about being partucular with it.
It has made life easier. That is the edge the design has.
It still depends on who you have behind the trigger. People have their opinions and I like Glock and it is user friendly...
But PDs weren't embracing Glocks in 1987. There was the apocryphal tale of the Miami cop shooting himself in the ass because of the Glock trigger which, again, led to stigma. It was probably someone with finger in trigger.
Honestly if it were a different time, and you had a 5906, then you had a solid duty weapon. You just had to do more PM.
Our guns are better but our attitudes are shittier.
Honestly, if it works...I dont care who made it.
But a lot of these attitudes are very much new and contemporary and derived from folks on the literal bleeding edge.
We have a solid choice for a basic person to learn and use. But beyond that it is all imcumbent on individual competence.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-26-17, 19:58
Which makes me ask...what do glockers do for Rifles and Shotguns?
First, I was an HK, Sig, and M&P fanboy before I ever got into Glocks, I now prefer Glocks and have put tens of thousands of rounds through all names of pistol manufacture listed in this sentence.
To Answer your question..
AK47s, AR15's, Tavors, Sig 550's, Remington 700, Ruger M77, Winchester lever actions, remington 870's, etc. I can't even think of how many guns I own off the top of my head. I love them all for different reasons, and am not narrow minded enough to only value one type, model, and make of firearm.
I believe many Glock owners are similar to myself.
Outlander Systems
10-26-17, 20:33
@Firefly
A lot of wisdom in that post, bro.
militarymoron
10-26-17, 22:21
MM, that's a solid looking weapon right there and proof that the platform's shortcomings in universality can be overcome when the user know what he or she needs to overcome the problems on an individual basis.
Thank you. If I had to name one gun in my safe 'Old Faithful', that would be it.
Firefly, good post.
Eurodriver
10-26-17, 22:27
MM, good post.
Now it seems like everybody is on the same page. I hope learning has occurred if not each of us gaining a small amount of perspective from others'.
Here's the consensus from a bunch of guys on the internet:
Glock is the standard.
Some people don't care to look outside their Glock-centric box (just like 1911 guys or revolver guys in the 80s and 90s when Glock was the new kid on the block). That's not necessarily a bad thing.
Glock has the best logistical infrastructure in the US.
If Glock works for you, you're money ahead to choose Glock.
Some people play more than shoot; never mastering a gun before their ADD and mental masturbation kicks in causing them to jump to the next big thing.
If the ergonomics of a gun don't work for you, it will show up via quantifiable metrics.
Ergonomics are misunderstood by many gun owners.
You're not an idiot for choosing something other than Glock.
Improvement in polymer-framed striker-fired guns are evolutionary rather than revolutionary today.
Is there anything to add before this one is good?
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I wanted to add that dropping a mag, through a paddle or through a button, is unlikely to be a rate limiting step for a reload. Even if your fingers don't contort well to hit the paddle or if you have to flip a gun to hit the button. The amount of work, travel, and time that support hand has to do/spend exceeds that of strong hand's, even for a small handed shooters. Like 12 year old boys and girls that do 1.5 sec reloads with G34, on the move.
That's what I wanted to add, but I didn't want to come across as an asshole who knows better what others endure in their quest of getting gooder in shooting.
militarymoron
10-26-17, 22:58
Is there anything to add before this one is good?
Group hug. :p
We're all here because of our common fondness for guns. We're from different backgrounds, all walks of life, experience levels etc. There will always be disagreements and different opinions. When that happens, let's remind ourselves why we are here, and give more weight to our shared similarities than our differences. The gun grabbers would like nothing better than for us gun owners to fight among ourselves and turn against one other.
When someone is ignorant, mentor rather than ridicule. I still have AC's patch in my sig line for a reason; to ask myself 'What would Chuck do?'. And then I try to follow his example.
Thank you all for getting this thread back on track.
dirkmagurk
10-27-17, 04:07
I believe besides the durability and reliability factors it will take a pistol that has the simplicity of a Glock. By that I mean the ability for an average non gunsmith or gun nerd to be able to completely detail strip and maintain/replace components with minimal training. I know from talking with several agency armorers that this plays a major factor in Glock's dominance among law enforcement. Prior to enlisting I assumed most military guys were into guns, but from my experience it is the opposite. This is especially true for the SF guys. The ones I have meet had no love affair with their weapons, they viewed them as tools and nothing more. I came across some Army SF guys running Glock .40's once, I watched one of them use a splinter he picked off of a crate to detail strip his Glock to replace a broken locking block. If there is another pistol that requires noting more than a punch or some other pointy object to completely break down I am unaware of it.
May I ask how many 2011s are in the combat world?
That is not what I was suggesting. You see 2011s in comp because SOME people shoot them better than they would a Glock. I'm not suggesting they are better in terms of reliability, they are not. They have finicky magazines. But your ability to shoot the gun matters. Reliabiltity matters. We all have different standards and, amazingly, different luck with the same type of pistol. Some of us will never shoot a Glock as well as we will other platforms. Had two glocks, perfectly reliable. Bought a 320 and shot it better, no issues with the 320. It's reliable for ME. Shoot what you feel good with.
People only buy pistols that aren’t Glock 9mms because they want to be different - a sobering thought considering their life may hang in the balance.
This whole “grip doesn’t feel right” “doesn’t point right” thing for the Glock has never been something I have seen folks who have 1,000 rounds down the pipe talk about. It seems to be a pot-belly gun store troglodyte ad hominem for wanting to be “different”
I'm a 20-year Glock owner of several different models and four different calibers. I currently own five Glocks and shoot them all regularly. I carry a Glock more than any other handgun, although not exclusively. I have fired a lot more than 1,000 rounds down range in just my latest Glock 43 and untold tens of thousands of more rounds through Glocks during the 20 years. I like my Glocks.
Based on those years, those different Glocks and those thousands of rounds I can confidently say that the above quote is one of the most ignorant I have ever read on any gun forum. Besides ignorant, it just plain isn't true and only a fool would believe it to be so.
Being brand loyal is one thing, but Good Grief, how could any rational person come up with such a statement.
BuzzinSATX
10-27-17, 08:14
Something we need to consider is we are adaptable and with practice, will generally learn to use whatever tools, guns, etc., assuming we have the inherent strength/size to do so.
Consider this, a 6’4” 210 lb man can ride a bike designed for a 5’0” woman. He adjusts the seat and handle bars as far up as possible and calls it good. the more he rides it, the more he will adapt to it.
So if he rides it every weekend on a 10 mile ride for a couple years, he may think that bike is fine for him.
But if you put him on a correctly sized bike, it will probably feel wrong for a few rides, but again, over time, he will adapt. And the difference will be the strain on his body and the level of effort for the same results.
Obviously this is a more extreme example that grip sizes on handguns, but the concept is the same. And for my 5’1” daughter with small hands, the difference between the Glock 19 and the XDm compact is a lot on her grip and control. And believe me, I really tried to get her to like Glock’s since I had several, but just didn’t work for her.
Again, I like Glock’s and have more Glock’s than any other gun. For the many reasons listed previously, they remain my go to. And is shit goes bump in the wee hours, they are what I keep next to my bed.
But honestly, if someone stole every Glock firearm, spare parts, holster, and magazine I had today and I had to start over again from scratch, I don’t know that i would go with Glock again...if not Glock, I’d probably go with the current offerings from either CZ or the SA XDm line...but that’s just my thoughts based on what I know today.
YMCAWV
(Your Mileage Can And Will Vary)
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And I have seen people go from "never Glock" to now "nothing but Glock".
.
Literally describes me.
My first gun was a Ruger P95. As a new gun owner I went through the police academy with it back in 2001. I was horrible! For qualifications one of the instructors gave me his G26. Magically my shooting improved instantly and qualifications were a breeze. Towards graduation I was presented with an opportunity for another, none LE, job. I had to make a decision fast and ultimately ended up leaving. Looking back I should have stayed. Anyway, the P95 got traded for something then came Taurus (Beretta clone) then a polymer version. A few S&W 3rd gens (4506/66, 5906). It was always something but not a Glock. Why? Because I was tired of being told "just buy a Glock". Hearing that would make me angry. I hadn't discovered the world of gun forums and all the "it's reliable" had no substance or meaning because there was no "proof". Everyone says their stuff is the best! Well......Muh gun is just as good! Paying for name only!!! Bla bla bla. And to be honest it didn't fit my hand. I know...cliche....but it felt awkward and like I was fighting the gun just to point it.
Around 2009/10 my LGS was having a black friday sales and they had a bunch of PD trade gen3 G19s. For $350 I ended up buying one. After that I stopped bouncing from gun to gun. The "it doesn't fit my hand" problem went away after a few long range sessions. Now it fits like it was meant for me and points naturally.
It's still the gun I carry every day and train with 99% of the time.
Today Glock takes up most of my safe. I have them in sets and in the 3 main calibers. Why? Because I still like to shoot other calibers on occasion and don't get hung up on caliber wars. Not to mention they were all dirt cheap. I still have and like other guns. A few USPs, two old Sigs, 1911, and a few revolvers. Most of them I buy cheap, used, and usually police trades.... hard to pass up a USP45 for under $350! And I still want some for other reasons...like SAS and Die Hard/Lethal Weapon... but I buy maybe a gun a year so it's not exactly interfering with ammo/gear/training money.
Having said all that I don't get hung up to much on most of the reasons people choose Glocks. I really don't care about modifications and aftermarket support. If it's reliable affordable and has night sights I'm happy! Be it Glock, HK, CZ...etc
Oh and...If I were in that same jungle ... G17 FTW!
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
If there is another pistol that requires noting more than a punch or some other pointy object to completely break down I am unaware of it.
The original 1911 only required a cartridge case to remove the grips, after that you used parts of the pistol as tools to complete the detail strip.
Andy
Doc Safari
10-27-17, 09:02
Have Glock, Will Travel.
In the early 1990's I was a "collector". I wanted one of these, one of those, two of that...one of that....
Strange how the only other handgun I have now besides a Glock is an easily concealable Smith 642.
What happened to all those other "fantastic" firearms with fancy wood grips, shiny blue finishes, or badass-looking muzzles?
I grew up and realized that looks don't mean shit. I'm not in this for the bling; I'm in this to survive.
As long as I can quickly point, line up the sights, and put the bullet where I want it without worrying the gun will choke, that's all that can be asked. Pity that's too much to ask of some firearms. Glocks may be ugly, but they always seem to work.
A cop in a gun shop laughed once when I said, "I'm GLAD Glocks are butt-ugly. Wear and tear only serves to give them character."
Fwiw I usually shoot my friend's P320 better than my Glock, but that doesn't mean I'm not plenty accurate with the Glock. The P320 is noticeably larger and heavier, and the Sig method of changing grip size (by ordering a whole new frame) is laughably worse than Glock's MBS. But he's happy with the pistol and he's learning to shoot it well, and that's what matters most.
WickedWillis
10-27-17, 11:05
So I am a huge Glock 19 (And well, Glock 9mm fan) in general. To anyone else does the 19 point more naturally than the 17 to them? I have small hands, and the 19 just seems to feel more like an extension than the 17 does. I constantly have to nose down my 17 on the draw, where as the 19 is there and repeatable each time.
militarymoron
10-27-17, 12:25
So I am a huge Glock 19 (And well, Glock 9mm fan) in general. To anyone else does the 19 point more naturally than the 17 to them? I have small hands, and the 19 just seems to feel more like an extension than the 17 does. I constantly have to nose down my 17 on the draw, where as the 19 is there and repeatable each time.
They both point differently for me due to the differences in the humps; but both tend to point high (which is why I have the humps flattened on both my G19's and 17's to bring the nose back down). I hate to bring up the word 'ergonomics' again in this thread, but will do so for the sake of technical discussion.
Let's get this out of the way first: differences in pistol grip angle may or may not be of importance to the individual. Obviously, the human wrist is a joint that is capable of adjusting to line up your sights on target. That's how we shoot different handguns with different grip angles. With enough presentations out of the holster, the deviation from the natural wrist angle required to line up the sights will become 'natural', and no longer an issue.
For the sake of this discussion, let's also agree that our wrists have a neutral position; when there is no radial nor ulnar deviation. This neutral position will vary from one individual to the next; which is why the same pistol might point more 'naturally' for one person than another. The neutral angle/position of the wrist is the one that it has when you're reaching out to shake hands, punching with a fist, or pointing straight with your finger with an extended arm.
IMHO, ideally you want a grip angle that lines up the sights when your wrist is in the neutral position, with no radial nor ulnar deviation correction needed. Why? Because that's the most repeatable angle your hand will be in because no conscious correction is required. By that, I mean that when you look at a target, then close your eyes and draw your pistol and present it with a neutral wrist angle, the sights will be lined up vs. too high or too low. Same thing applies in the dark when you have only a tritium dot in the front and plain rear and you think you have them level, but don't.
Always one to adapt my personal gear to me where possible; rather than just let things alone, when I noticed that my Glocks pointed high when doing the neutral wrist experiment, I started having the hump removed, which brought the front sight back down and closer to my natural point of aim. Going one step further, I found that the polymer80 Glock frame with its reduced grip angle is almost perfect for me - when my wrist is at its neutral position, my sights are lined up consistently better with the polymer80 G19 that I built. It makes for a more natural pointing weapon for me.
Where this becomes more noticeable for me is shooting one-handed. Where a grip angle that matches my neutral wrist position became even more noticeable was when I started using an RMR on my G17. With irons, you are focused on the target, and as you present, you quickly switch focus to your front sight, then make the minor angular corrections as the rear comes into the picture. With a pistol RDS, you focus only on the target. You do not bring the gun, sights, etc into focus. You present, and the dot should appear floating around your target. So, when I first started doing that, since I wasn't trying to line up front and rear irons, my dot always ended up high, because I didn't have the muscle memory to have it lined up, and my wrist was in the neutral position. Yes, practicing presentations with an RDS is the software fix to that.
But, sticking the RDS on a modified frame with hump removed, or polymer80 frame with different grip angle helped because it required less corrective input (ulnar flexion) on my part. I could close my eyes, present, and the dot would be in the window whereas before, I'd have to include that slight ulnar flexion during presentation for the dot to end up in the window.
Again, the software fix works - presentation reps, practice, rounds down range etc. But there's also something to be said for starting with hardware that requires the least amount of deviation from a user's neutral body positions to start with, because that's generally the most repeatable/natural. The combination of both, IMHO, is the best of both worlds (at least from a design perspective).
Glock is unquestionably the king of defensive handguns in today's world, and for more reasons than just performance. Many of those reasons have already been stated in this thread so no need to really re hash them.
But to my minds eye something else happened with Glock that will probably keep it going as the leader of the defensive handgun world, it became the 1911 of a new generation of shooters. A box stock Glock can serve the lowest common denominator to professional with equal efficiency and without a lot of fan fare. Such is the nature of what good defensive tool should be, but in today's point and click "easy button" world, people get bored to easily so the tweaking began, and a new cottage industry was born and history repeats itself.
There are some pretty damn cool things going on with Glocks these days, from 80% home brews to full house one off customs from a new generation of "smiths". And just like the 1911 of yore, a new following begins.
The unfortunate side affect of this, it perpetuates tribalism, feuding, and the whole "my stuff is better than your stuff" mentality that in reality does no one any good in the long run. Emotions always come into play and we become those dogs barking at each other through the fence.
Glock will remain the top of the heap for awhile. how long that remains true shall remain to be seen, there are a lot of other pretty damn good options out there right now, and strange things happen. May not be today or tomorrow, but it will happen.
I just hope I can decide between the Gen5.19 and the M&P 9c first :D
Doc Safari
10-27-17, 13:45
Despite being king of the hill, Glocks do have one very unfortunate weakness.
48232
:jester:
48233
Unanimously, everyone seems to think the G19 is the top dog. I read a statistic posted online that said the M&P Shield and Ruger LCP were the two most sold pistols in the US last year. While I own a Shield, it would not get the nod over a G19 for every day.
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PrivateCitizen
10-27-17, 14:57
Glock is unquestionably the king of defensive handguns in today's world, and for more reasons than just performance …
…
…Glock will remain the top of the heap for awhile. how long that remains true shall remain to be seen, there are a lot of other pretty damn good options out there right now, and strange things happen. May not be today or tomorrow, but it will happen.
This is essentially my thinking and what precipitated the thread. (I go back a long way with CZs … the CZ P10C calls to me on an emotional level. And it shoots/feels great. But …)
One thing I think is a reason for the Glocks continual long-term adoption is that with every new contender, to win itself as *combat* replacement, needs exposure and broad usage in addition to becoming dominant lore.
Needs quantifiable proof.
As good as challenger A (P10C) might be, challenger B (M&P2.0) comes along and now it is A vs Glock & B vs Glock. (Do we really see any P10C vs M&P2.0 threads … if so, it is always in comparison to a Glock)
Glock continues to get the playing-time and despite its potential or perceived lack of performance against either, the case is simply not enough to change the cultural momentum or be worth the cost to the entrenched.
A/B share the spotlight time and, in that, is the built in self-defeat. A/B simply can't make the case before C (HK M&PIG19Cz) comes along … and then everyone selling something, everyone looking for emotional gratification, new shiny, social-media commandos, and even those looking for a legit improvement move on.
A/B whither. C/D whither.
Glock: The Once and Future King
Eurodriver
10-27-17, 15:07
Despite being king of the hill, Glocks do have one very unfortunate weakness.
48232
:jester:
48233
True, but this would never happen to a Glock either.
https://imgur.com/lgBoGpo
Doc Safari
10-27-17, 15:15
True, but this would never happen to a Glock either.
https://imgur.com/lgBoGpo
LOL. :haha:
I think it was in one of the annual Glock magazines from years back that a guy lost his Glock off the coast of California or somewhere while boating. Years later a diving team recovered it and the cops showed up at his door wanting to know how his Glock came to rest at the bottom of the ocean. He convinced them it was an accident and IIRC all he replaced on it was corroded springs. The pistol was otherwise entirely functional.
True, but this would never happen to a Glock either.
https://imgur.com/lgBoGpo
Looks like that went through a fire.
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Looks like that went through a fire.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkOr dug up from an Eastern front battlefield. It's Tokarev
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militarymoron
10-27-17, 17:25
True, but this would never happen to a Glock either.
https://imgur.com/lgBoGpo
Neither would this (below) - broke a 1911 barrel bushing. This happened last weekend - I was in the middle of a string then the slide stayed back and my recoil spring was hanging out the front. The look on my face must have been priceless.
https://i.imgur.com/0oFPrfo.jpg
That 1908(?) is officially a mummy
Outlander Systems
10-27-17, 17:36
Baby Outlander's first AR, a Bushmaster, came apart on him at the range on the back end.
I know the look you had on your face, well.
Neither would this (below) - broke a 1911 barrel bushing. This happened last weekend - I was in the middle of a string then the slide stayed back and my recoil spring was hanging out the front. The look on my face must have been priceless.
https://i.imgur.com/0oFPrfo.jpg
This is essentially my thinking and what precipitated the thread. (I go back a long way with CZs … the CZ P10C calls to me on an emotional level. And it shoots/feels great. But …)
One thing I think is a reason for the Glocks continual long-term adoption is that with every new contender, to win itself as *combat* replacement, needs exposure and broad usage in addition to becoming dominant lore.
Needs quantifiable proof.
As good as challenger A (P10C) might be, challenger B (M&P2.0) comes along and now it is A vs Glock & B vs Glock. (Do we really see any P10C vs M&P2.0 threads … if so, it is always in comparison to a Glock)
Glock continues to get the playing-time and despite its potential or perceived lack of performance against either, the case is simply not enough to change the cultural momentum or be worth the cost to the entrenched.
A/B share the spotlight time and, in that, is the built in self-defeat. A/B simply can't make the case before C (HK M&PIG19Cz) comes along … and then everyone selling something, everyone looking for emotional gratification, new shiny, social-media commandos, and even those looking for a legit improvement move on.
A/B whither. C/D whither.
Glock: The Once and Future King
I hear ya' man. Well said.
Emotions come into play for a lot of folks when it comes to personal firearms selection, good, bad, or otherwise it plays a roll and down the rabbit hole we go. Been there many times myself and am currently battling the urge to dump everything and go back to Glock exclusively. I am at a point where severe burnout of "gun world" is taking its toll and have this increasing desire to simplify, and knock things down to basic rolling gear for defensive use. Critical mass is close if you will.
So with that being said, and viewing things from a raw, clinical view, nothing on the market today can come close to what Glock has done from a combined perspective when it comes to performance and logistics. Glock will more than likely do what you need it to do when you need it from a purely defensive aspect. Lose a magazine while on vacation? Walk into local gun store, buy a replacement and BOOM, done. Carry on with life. Magazines and parts are cheap and plentiful. What other brands can rival that?
I can think of no other handgun that can literally be found on every continent on planet earth. I can also not come up with any other modern handgun that has ever been as influential in the military, LE, civilian world as Glock. If there is, someone please let me know, I am always up for learning new things.
That 1908(?) is officially a mummyTokarev
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I have always been a gun guy and my first pistol when I was 21 was a G19 gen2 which I liked but sadly sold when I started the Police Academy and I knew I would be stuck with a 92F for the foreseeable future. So I learned how to shoot a 92F well (not hard!) and my backup S&W 3913. However my dream was to be able to carry a 1911 but given our Dept that wasn't likely to happen...
Then the North Hollywood Bank Robbery happened and lo and behold S&W 3rd generation 45s were authorized and I got a 4566 and 4516. It didn't make sense why but I wasn't questioning as I got to carry a 45 now!! It was a lot more work and many thousands of rounds and extra training to become proficient pointing a brick at a target but it was worth it at the time.
The idea of a "modern" Glock was just as big as a pipe dream as a 1911 to the vast majority of the Dept a couple decades ago... Salvation arrived in the form of a new Chief from out of town who authorized Glocks of all sizes in the big 3 calibers! I was one of the earliest to transition and of course in 45, duh. This added a G21 and G26 backup and G19 for off duty. The Glocks actually took some work as well to shoot to my needs and I again put in the time and rounds. It was weird though to go from a 4566 to a G19 for off duty... So light! I still dreamed of a 1911 though.
Then all our G21s were benched due to light strikes and I moved to a G17/G26 combo. It was easier to carry size wise given my now plainclothes assignment and could share mags with my backup. Genius! I could also hammer triples instead of doubles and stay on target. Then the most amazing and unexpected thing ever happened and the Dept authorized pistol mounted lights! An unbelievable bounty of duty gun riches! Still not a 1911 but I felt lucky.
So several more years of happy 9mm Glock/Surefire bliss and I am surprised yet again... 1911s are authorized for those willing and able to pass the even more stringent standards. I am speechless. I start planning my transition and realize I am going to need guns, mags, lots of various holsters and gear, and a ton of extra rounds downrange to equal my 10+yr Glock skill buildup. I start to question myself as I do the 5 figure $$ math and time commitment for what gain? Back to a heavy steel gun with much less ammo? Can you share mags between various sized and manufactured 1911s? No more SHTF 33rd mags? Faster hits? More accurate? I couldn't get realistically faster/better hits at 7-15Y by the timer. I was more accurate with my Les Baer at 25Y but then less blocky and actually faster 10-8 sights on my Glocks closed the gap to a more than realistic and not really practical difference of 3-4" vs 5-6" for aimed rapid fire.
I was sad at my decision. Finally the dream of carrying a 1911 was a possibility... but it didn't make sense anymore. I am still sad about it years later but accept the practicality of Glock and my time behind them for my mission.
Most importantly day to day my G19/XC1/10-8 sighted super thin IWB fits my hip perfectly when off duty and traveling all over the USA and I never feel undergunned vs any other option.
Epilogue...
Of course the M&P was finally authorized as well and while I love the grip, the clunky field stripping and trigger annoyed me. If I couldn't be moved to transition to a 1911 then I wasn't going to a M&P... The kicker, no G19 sized option.
Dennis.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171028/e1843b5dde4d25e77e70a80d956b80e3.jpg
Spartan2323
10-30-17, 14:53
Love the G19, seems to be perfect size. A little big for concealed carry. G26 for that role
Any opinions of the gen 5 ? And real advantage over the gen 4 ?
Any opinions of the gen 5 ? And real advantage over the gen 4 ?
I believe there is a thread for that already.
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I wonder how much of the reasoning posted in favor of glock-over-all-else is truly because of an inherent advantage observed empirically rather than posters trying to convince themselves and others like them that they made an enlightened choice. Somehow, Glock deficiencies are spun into advantages:
Gritty trigger: Abundance of aftermarket triggers and parts
Ergonomic, adjustable grips from other guns: Fancy marketing
Adjustable grips on glocks: improvement in design
Ambidextrous controls in other guns: marketing gimmick
Glock going to ambidextrous controls: improvement to perfection coming soon!
Seriously, this thread is full of firearm hipsters who are the equivalent of those that carry an old hand me down pocket watch like somehow it tells time better than a smart phone or those that drink pabst blue ribbon like they really think it tastes better... there's nothing wrong with those things, and there's nothing wrong with shooting glocks, but like Greg Bell said, let's not pretend you're doing it because you only think of your gun as a bullet delivery device, just admit deep down you're a fanboy. The fact you're on a forum posting repeated in this thread shows.
For a moment I thought I was on glocktalk.com
It is highly unlikely that someone whose interest in handguns was purely utilitarian, passionless and logical would spend any time discussing this issue online. (I for one love thinking about everything about guns, from utility to history to aesthetics). Further, dropping various insults, suggesting that anyone with a different opinion doesn't shoot or care about shooting, mocking language ("muh ergos," etc) further emphasizes the fact that this is about some need to reinforce one's opinions rather than the actual merits of the G19. Basically everyone here has granted that the G19 is a fine gun. It certainly is. My G19 G5 has been good. Nothing amazing, but it holds its own against it's competitors. I could knit pick (80's Austrian mechanical engineer ergonomics/ Gen 5 no longer fully compatible with old internals (so much for common parts/logistics argument)/ some holsters no longer work/ etc) , but there is certainly nothing wrong with my G19 (zero BTF issues with my example).
Good gun. If it fits you, and you are satisfied with it then great for you. I enjoy shooting the crap out of all of them...
Eurodriver
10-31-17, 21:00
I wonder how much of the reasoning posted in favor of glock-over-all-else is truly because of an inherent advantage observed empirically rather than posters trying to convince themselves and others like them that they made an enlightened choice. Somehow, Glock deficiencies are spun into advantages:
Gritty trigger: Abundance of aftermarket triggers and parts
Ergonomic, adjustable grips from other guns: Fancy marketing
Adjustable grips on glocks: improvement in design
Ambidextrous controls in other guns: marketing gimmick
Glock going to ambidextrous controls: improvement to perfection coming soon!
Seriously, this thread is full of firearm hipsters who are the equivalent of those that carry an old hand me down pocket watch like somehow it tells time better than a smart phone or those that drink pabst blue ribbon like they really think it tastes better... there's nothing wrong with those things, and there's nothing wrong with shooting glocks, but like Greg Bell said, let's not pretend you're doing it because you only think of your gun as a bullet delivery device, just admit deep down you're a fanboy. The fact you're on a forum posting repeated in this thread shows.
For a moment I thought I was on glocktalk.com
What would you have people with Glock 19s do? Sell them and buy something else just to avoid being a fanboy?
Who is going to pay to switch all of My Holsters and magazines and the ammunition to train on a new platform?
For me owning Glock 19s isn’t about lack of options, it would be a logistical nightmare switching and there is nothing anything on the market does that’s worth that.
True, but this would never happen to a Glock either.
https://imgur.com/lgBoGpo
Wanna bet?
https://i.imgur.com/wmqmYhm.jpg
Yes, I know, not as bad, but if it had been let to go, other than that frame, it would have looked like that Tokerev.
What would you have people with Glock 19s do? Sell them and buy something else just to avoid being a fanboy?
Who is going to pay to switch all of My Holsters and magazines and the ammunition to train on a new platform?
For me owning Glock 19s isn’t about lack of options, it would be a logistical nightmare switching and there is nothing anything on the market does that’s worth that.
That's my point. Logistics.
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What would you have people with Glock 19s do? Sell them and buy something else just to avoid being a fanboy?
I don’t think he’s really telling you guys to do anything. He’s simply stating the obvious in addition to what many other people are thinking when they read this thread.
Kudos to Greg & MM too who’s posts were pretty much spot on.
Eurodriver
10-31-17, 21:49
I don’t think he’s really telling you guys to do anything. He’s simply stating the obvious in addition to what many other people are thinking when they read this thread.
Wtf does anyone with a shred of intelligence care what people think when they read this thread? And why do we need to beat around the bush when defending the most versatile handgun on the market?
Gun owners are nothing but people who think the white supremacist in Charlottesville was just trying to escape being attacked when he mowed down protesters, guys who buy charging handles “just to try them” with zero information about them, weirdo gun collectors who would rather own a P320, M&P, VP9, G19, and a P30 in .45, .40, 9mm, .357 Sig, and others rather than just become proficient at killing with one platform that shares holsters, magazines, ammo, and muscle memory.
Let them think we are a bunch of fanboys. We will keep shooting our G19s better than they could ever hope to shoot while they sit in their gun rooms talking about “muh pointability” and being oblivious to the fact that skill is something earned, not purchased.
What would you have people with Glock 19s do? Sell them and buy something else just to avoid being a fanboy?
Who is going to pay to switch all of My Holsters and magazines and the ammunition to train on a new platform?
For me owning Glock 19s isn’t about lack of options, it would be a logistical nightmare switching and there is nothing anything on the market does that’s worth that.
I'm a pretty casual shooter but I find the cost of ammunition to outweigh the cost of magazines and accessories greatly. Maybe if you have a small armament and accompanying accessories things are different. That said, I like glocks and if you're happy why change?
My point is we mental masturbate here a lot on the end all be all pistol or the zombie apocalypse or SHTF pistol, when I would bet most of us aren't even in good enough shape to survive past the first 5 minutes of a zombie apocalypse, much less the service interval of a modern pistol. Pick a reliable, reputable gun and shoot it. If it happens to be a glock, cool, if not, good too. Everything else on top is just mental masturbation to hypothetical scenarios or advantages that the majority of us will never, thankfully, experience. Why are we trying so hard to convince others (or is it ourselves) we shoot the one and only?
I wonder how much of the reasoning posted in favor of glock-over-all-else is truly because of an inherent advantage observed empirically rather than posters trying to convince themselves and others like them that they made an enlightened choice. Somehow, Glock deficiencies are spun into advantages:
Gritty trigger: Abundance of aftermarket triggers and parts
Ergonomic, adjustable grips from other guns: Fancy marketing
Adjustable grips on glocks: improvement in design
Ambidextrous controls in other guns: marketing gimmick
Glock going to ambidextrous controls: improvement to perfection coming soon!
Seriously, this thread is full of firearm hipsters who are the equivalent of those that carry an old hand me down pocket watch like somehow it tells time better than a smart phone or those that drink pabst blue ribbon like they really think it tastes better... there's nothing wrong with those things, and there's nothing wrong with shooting glocks, but like Greg Bell said, let's not pretend you're doing it because you only think of your gun as a bullet delivery device, just admit deep down you're a fanboy. The fact you're on a forum posting repeated in this thread shows.
For a moment I thought I was on glocktalk.com
I carry a Glock because it would cost way to much to get everything I have for a glock for my M&P. #gobepoorsomewhereelse Glock poor that is
A proper hipster would carry something like a Webley revolver or some kind of an ironic HK pistol.
* Edited to remove possibly offensive word. Mea Culpa
Andy
Wtf does anyone with a shred of intelligence care what people think when they read this thread? And why do we need to beat around the bush when defending the most versatile handgun on the market?
Gun owners are nothing but people who think the white supremacist in Charlottesville was just trying to escape being attacked when he mowed down protesters, guys who buy charging handles “just to try them” with zero information about them, weirdo gun collectors who would rather own a P320, M&P, VP9, G19, and a P30 in .45, .40, 9mm, .357 Sig, and others rather than just become proficient at killing with one platform that shares holsters, magazines, ammo, and muscle memory.
Let them think we are a bunch of fanboys. We will keep shooting our G19s better than they could ever hope to shoot while they sit in their gun rooms talking about “muh pointability” and being oblivious to the fact that skill is something earned, not purchased.
B
I
N
G
O
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21 pages, people debating if a Glock 19 is great.
Glock is what it is, a light weight pistol that has inherent accuracy better than what 95% of it's owners have talent to use.
I used to be issued a Hi Power, I love that pistol. To the point I own 3 of them, 2 highly customized and 1 stock. I carry 1 of them ever few months and then after a week found myself going back to Glock since it was light weight and got the job done. Was the Glock a tac driver like my custom Hi Powers, nope. But age caught up to me and unless I wear reading glasses to shoot with. My Glock wears an RMR which my Hi Power can't.
But Glock is like the Honda station wagon my mom bought when I was a kid, it got the job done. But it wasn't a car to warm your heart.
Then some friends turned me onto CZ P09/07 and I have the best of all worlds. Light to carry, accuracy equal to my big name custom Hi Powers, can be milled for RMR, and they just look sexy.
So my Hi Powers sit in the safe, next to my Glocks, I hope they mate and make me some more CZ P09/07.
Yes the G19 is great. That being said, what has been forgotten is that it is great for those within a certain size range hand-small to medium. For those of us with large hands the G17 is the once and future King.
BTW during the time i owned a G19 i used it to challenge myself at matches. I noticed the scores suffered dramatically. Yes with more practice i could have eventually overcome the deficiency but what would have been the point since there is no issue with concealability with the G17-considering i am 6'2. Conversely, my 5'1 wife scores very well with her G19 but suffers when she uses one of the G17's.
So lets try to keep this in perspective.
What would you have people with Glock 19s do? Sell them and buy something else just to avoid being a fanboy?
Who is going to pay to switch all of My Holsters and magazines and the ammunition to train on a new platform?
For me owning Glock 19s isn’t about lack of options, it would be a logistical nightmare switching and there is nothing anything on the market does that’s worth that.
It’s not that anyone expects someone to do that.
I think what he was pointing out is that the response Glock shooters have when something else hits the market. It’s almost as if some guys here have to dismiss any improvement as gimmicky and unnecessary to validate their ownership of said brand.
Way I see it, it ain’t gimmicky if it makes the shooter better, safer, etc. End of story, regardless of the roll mark (and I own both).
And yes, logistical concerns are 100% valid. I’m in the same boat. But re-read the posts here. Over half are talking about gimmicks, the invalidity of ergonomics, etc.
Doc Safari
11-01-17, 09:00
Let them think we are a bunch of fanboys. We will keep shooting our G19s better than they could ever hope to shoot while they sit in their gun rooms talking about “muh pointability” and being oblivious to the fact that skill is something earned, not purchased.
The answer to people who think we are nothing but fanboys is negated when we talk RELIABILITY. I went through at least a half dozen well-known handguns from name manufacturers before settling on Glock. Why did an ugly plastic gun with a crunchy trigger, cheap polymer sights, and a slippery grip beat all of them? RELIABILITY. I was actually surprised the first time I got past 500 rounds with a pistol and hadn't had even one malfunction. Then I passed 1,000 rounds... Then 2,000...
All of a sudden that "tuned" 1911 with the dark red wood grips was no longer my "go to" gun. And all those other handguns that had been "less than 100%" might as well have been Lorcins or Hi Points. Yes, my cherished customized 1911 was suddenly obsolete.
I know there are other guns just as reliable as Glock, but one never forgets one's first experience with total reliability.
I'd have to think long and hard about it, but among all the Glocks I've owned over the years I don't think I've had more than a handful of malfunctions spread among ALL of them.
Outlander Systems
11-01-17, 09:38
I think a lot of folks are missing something here.
For anyone who is simply trying to become a better shooter, it's about choosing a platform that works for that individual.
I'm personally not a collector. If we lived in a more civilized age, I would happily, HAPPILY go back to owning 6-shot revolvers and calling it good.
Logistics.
Why, please enlighten me, can I find spare parts for Glock 9mms anywhere I look?
Why is it that I have a near limitless availability of holsters of all shapes, sizes, colors, and types for Glock 9mms to choose from?
Why is it that Glock 9mms are the benchmark for reliability in handguns?
Why are so few other handguns as simple to user-service?
Why are there so many other weapons that specifically take Glock 9mm magazines but not Beretta, HK, S&W, or Sig magazines?
Why don't other manufacturers offer cross-platform magazine compatibility?
Also, why, as a shooter, would I want multiple different guns in multiple calibers with multiple operating systems? Proficiency is a by-product of efficiency.
95% of the challenges I face on the ladder of excellence are self-induced, ME problems, not equipment problems.
The equipment is absolutely, wholly, completely secondary to reaching the autonomous phase of procedural memory.
So, when there is a handgun that adequately solves the logistics and reliability issues, that affords me to focus on what matters to me (increasing proficiency), drop a dime and holler at me.
Rectifying preference items sell new guns. My personal preference items are more related to body mechanics, cognitive functioning and problem-solving regarding human behavior and violent encounters, than improving the interface of the available tool to do the above.
Things that would make me ditch Glock as a platform outside of logistics and reliability:
Integral suppression
Complete recoil elimination
I believe both of those are still in the science-fiction arena, so, stuck with Glocks I shall be.
Well said
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think a lot of folks are missing something here.
For anyone who is simply trying to become a better shooter, it's about choosing a platform that works for that individual.
I'm personally not a collector. If we lived in a more civilized age, I would happily, HAPPILY go back to owning 6-shot revolvers and calling it good.
Logistics.
Why, please enlighten me, can I find spare parts for Glock 9mms anywhere I look?
Why is it that I have a near limitless availability of holsters of all shapes, sizes, colors, and types for Glock 9mms to choose from?
Why is it that Glock 9mms are the benchmark for reliability in handguns?
Why are so few other handguns as simple to user-service?
Why are there so many other weapons that specifically take Glock 9mm magazines but not Beretta, HK, S&W, or Sig magazines?
Why don't other manufacturers offer cross-platform magazine compatibility?
Also, why, as a shooter, would I want multiple different guns in multiple calibers with multiple operating systems? Proficiency is a by-product of efficiency.
95% of the challenges I face on the ladder of excellence are self-induced, ME problems, not equipment problems.
The equipment is absolutely, wholly, completely secondary to reaching the autonomous phase of procedural memory.
So, when there is a handgun that adequately solves the logistics and reliability issues, that affords me to focus on what matters to me (increasing proficiency), drop a dime and holler at me.
Rectifying preference items sell new guns. My personal preference items are more related to body mechanics, cognitive functioning and problem-solving regarding human behavior and violent encounters, than improving the interface of the available tool to do the above.
Things that would make me ditch Glock as a platform outside of logistics and reliability:
Integral suppression
Complete recoil elimination
I believe both of those are still in the science-fiction arena, so, stuck with Glocks I shall be.
In my opinion, and that's all it is ...... It comes down to what you want out of the gun. Like just about everyone else here I carry and train with a G19.3. That being said I don't care about 99% of the stuff you mentioned. Aside from holsters the rest is irrelevant to me. No PCCs to share mags. NO desire... ABSOLUTELY NONE....to work on my guns. I'd rather have my teeth pulled. Don't know why but I always hated it. I know I'll have to pay if work needs to be done and that's why I have 2 identical carry guns.
I have no emotional attachment to guns but some are interesting from a historical point of view or from a "just different" point of view. I have a few of those guns. None of them I need holsters for or dozens of mags. They're more for occasional fun at the range, that's all. My 80s Sig 226 has one mag. It's fun to shoot once or twice a year for a 100 rounds and it's completely irrelevant to training.
There's the serious part of gun ownership and then theres the casual part. It doesn't necessarily have to be one OR the other. I really like and appreciate old German guns. Lugers, Mausers, Walthers, PSPs. If I could afford them id have a collection but it wouldn't mean that I'm interested in carrying a C96 or that I won't take training seriously.
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Achilles11B
11-01-17, 11:06
But Glock is like the Honda station wagon my mom bought when I was a kid, it got the job done. But it wasn't a car to warm your heart.
Nailed it. There are prettier guns, fancier guns and newer designs and features, but the G19 just gets it done with minimal fuss.
People only buy pistols that aren’t Glock 9mms because they want to be different - a sobering thought considering their life may hang in the balance.
Nah, some people (myself included) simply don't like the lack of a safety. If Glock had a factory-built model with a safety, I'd buy it. Until then, H&K it is.
CanineCombatives
11-01-17, 12:03
Gun owners are nothing but people who think the white supremacist in Charlottesville was just trying to escape being attacked when he mowed down protesters
Serious question mods, do you really want a piece of feces like this posting here?
MSparks909
11-01-17, 12:34
Euro,
I didn’t intend to mention a specific member of this forum but I’m tired of the “holier than thou” attitude and constant criticisms of those that shoot anything besides a 6920/G19. It seriously pisses me (and I’m sure a lot of people) off. You epitomize what being a fanboy means. You are so blinded by loyalty to Glock that the mere acceptance that there might be other guns out there that perform better than Glock (or a 6920) goes right over your head.
People need to just pick what they like and drive on, and if that’s happens to be something besides your beloved G19/6920, just shut the f*ck up and let it be. For instance, I own a few Glocks. Have holsters for them but prefer carrying TDA guns for the added safety factor when carrying AIWB. Wanna know something cool? I can shoot all of my guns to about the same level. It isn’t about the gun for me anymore; I look to increasing my performance and don’t really care what gun model or brand I use. I can shoot a Beretta 92/PX4 just as well as I can shoot a Glock. Slightly slower with my HK P30/P30Ls but you get the idea.
Just wish people, aka Euro, would stop questioning everyone that doesn’t share their opinion. Gets old after a while. If I get a timeout for this so be it; had to get this off my chest.
Evel Baldgui
11-01-17, 12:42
I find these threads highly amusing in that why is this a matter of debate? My Sears hammer is better than your XYZ brand hammer... really ?
I have RMR G19's with match barrels and they are just as accurate as my out of box VP9's, CZ P07's, and PPQ's. The out of box G19, not so much.
They all have been equally reliable, and once the g19 WAS MODIFIED, it was just as accurate as my other pistols noted above. The key to the Glock
is the after market support. In terms of reliability, PPQ,CZ,HK are just as reliable. In terms of accuracy, PPQ, VP9, Cz P07 beat it miles. Ease of carry? PPQ much easier.
All are excellent tools which will serve the function they were designed for. Your choice, Toyota or Lexus, both will go from A to B.
Doc Safari
11-01-17, 13:16
This is why you buy a Glock. Nuff Said.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/16/handgun-experiences-from-battlefield-las-vegas/
The background for the high round count is that we are rental-only range one block off the Las Vegas Strip (called Battlefield Vegas)... [snip] I completely spaced on the reliability of the pistols we use on the line everyday of the year except for Christmas. We go through approximately 150,000-180,000 rounds combined of 9mm, .45, .50AE, .500S&W, .38 Special, .380 and 9mmMakarov each month. I don’t count .22 because even though we go through 1,000’s of rounds, it’s not in the same class as our standard calibers.
I can tell you that even though I am not a “Glock guy”, it is the most reliable handgun in our inventory and I would trust it with my life. We use Gen1-Gen4 17’s on the line and they are the most hassle-free handgun we have. I used my original Gen1 17 when we first opened two and a half years ago and it finally broke about six months ago. When I say broke, Glock’s pretty much are the only handgun that suffer a “catastrophic” break. The slide cracks right at the narrow portion at the ejection port. They will continue to fire most of the time but the rounds group at the top right corner of the target. The factory recoil springs are amazing because the just keep going. The Glock gets used probably 10X as much as our Beretta M92’s so it’s not fair to say the Beretta is more reliable (snip). We don’t use aftermarket slides on our Glocks so I couldn’t give you any info on those because Glock will replace our cracked slides under warranty. Also, I don’t meant to give the impression that slides break all the time but it would be fair to say that they get at least 100,000 rounds before cracking.
My take: At this point we can play the national anthem and close the thread. :thank_you2::jester:
This is why you buy a Glock. Nuff Said.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/16/handgun-experiences-from-battlefield-las-vegas/
My take: At this point we can play the national anthem and close the thread. :thank_you2::jester:
I don't really think that amounts to much as it's an opinionated guy and anecdotal. He also admits to not liking HK because HK. Over on PT, there is lots of evidence of HKs performing much better than G19s in similar testing.
Myself, I've had several Glocks that just don't freaking work without modifications.
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I don't really think that amounts to much as it's an opinionated guy and anecdotal. He also admits to not liking HK because HK. Over on PT, there is lots of evidence of HKs performing much better than G19s in similar testing.
Myself, I've had several Glocks that just don't freaking work without modifications.
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I believe that H&K's, specifically USPs and HK45s, are just as reliable and accurate as Glocks. In fact, that's not just opinion, that's fact.
BUT... all things are not equal. H&K overengineers the absolute crap out of their weapons and, as such, their handguns are exponentially more complex... and subsequently much more expensive.
Glock's approach to reliability is to simplify everything; H&K's approach to reliability is make it as redundantly overbuilt as possible (exaggerating slightly, but not by much). In a EDC, range, competition, etc. scenario, this is fine. BUT... introduce actual field and combat conditions and the simplicity of the Glock does have a certain advantage to it, especially at the armorer level.
I love my USPs and know they can perform as well or better than Glocks, but I also understand that there's a price to pay for the complexity of how they're built, serviced, and sold.
With that, if you have two approximately equal guns and one is more complex and expensive, which one do you go with? Therein lies the issue with H&Ks and why not many people talk about them. Why spend the time and money when you can get the same performance from a Glock for 1/2 the price?
Just wish people, aka Euro, would stop questioning everyone that doesn’t share their opinion. Gets old after a while. If I get a timeout for this so be it; had to get this off my chest.
You shouldn't get any time, that was not a personal attack and it was nicely stated.
There is a difference between discussion and adamantly telling folks what to do. We all cross the line occasionally, and you've done a nice job of reminding us all of that.
Generally speaking, when you tell folks who don't think the way you do they are stupid fvckers, you've lost your ability to influence them. We all need to remember that.
I believe that H&K's, specifically USPs and HK45s, are just as reliable and accurate as Glocks. In fact, that's not just opinion, that's fact.
BUT... all things are not equal. H&K overengineers the absolute crap out of their weapons and, as such, their handguns are exponentially more complex... and subsequently much more expensive.
Glock's approach to reliability is to simplify everything; H&K's approach to reliability is make it as redundantly overbuilt as possible (exaggerating slightly, but not by much). In a EDC, range, competition, etc. scenario, this is fine. BUT... introduce actual field and combat conditions and the simplicity of the Glock does have a certain advantage to it, especially at the armorer level.
I love my USPs and know they can perform as well or better than Glocks, but I also understand that there's a price to pay for the complexity of how they're built, serviced, and sold.
With that, if you have two approximately equal guns and one is more complex and expensive, which one do you go with? Therein lies the issue with H&Ks and why not many people talk about them. Why spend the time and money when you can get the same performance from a Glock for 1/2 the price?
VP9s are cheaper than Gen 5 Glocks right now.
P30s are approximately the same price.
By the time a guy buys a Glock, fixes the extraction/ejection, works the trigger over, and puts on sights, he may have several hundred tied up in it. Say, $140 trigger, $120 in extraction/ejections mods (Apex, etc), and $120 sights on top of a $600 Gen 5...the price of an out of the box HK with serviceable sights seems more attainable.
My brother-in-law bought a VP9 Tactical with night sights and three magazines for $500 out the door (and got three additional magazines from their promo). My buddy just bought a VP9SK LE for $505 out the door that came with three mags and Meprolights. Out of the box, from a rest, these easily out shoot VP9s. As new shooters they both shoot these better than they do my G19s. I actually talked one of them into a G19 first, and he purchased it and more or less doesn't shoot it because he hates it.
Another good friend bought a new G17 for $650 out the door. First thing he did was buy $140 sights. It also shot brass in his face and gave him a big burn. He has about ten Glocks and this was his first experience with a Glock doing this. He believed it only happened to those that limp-worsted their guns. So now he's in for at the least another $70 if not more to correct the issue. He's $860 in on this thing. Is it any cheaper than an HK? An M&P? A 509? Maybe for him since he only owns Glocks and has holsters and magazines. But for the new shooter?
Shooters box themselves in and cannot see out of their own box. To think "Glock or nothing" and "everybody else is an idiot" is myopic.
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noonesshowmonkey
11-01-17, 15:22
VP9s are cheaper than Gen 5 Glocks right now.
P30s are approximately the same price.
By the time a guy buys a Glock, fixes the extraction/ejection, works the trigger over, and puts on sights, he may have several hundred tied up in it.
...
Shooters box themselves in and cannot see out of their own box. To think "Glock or nothing" and "everybody else is an idiot" is myopic.
Bruh, where you gettin P30s for $495?
Also, if you wanna play tactical barbie with a Glock, that's on you. The only trigger mod that my Glocks get are a factory (-) connector ($20) and some polishing of the internals. After that, it's just a shitload of ammo.
Sights are $90. If you are spending more than that for non-adjustables, you are wrong.
There is absolutely no way that I can get into an HK for the same price as a Glock.
VP9s are cheaper than Gen 5 Glocks right now.
P30s are approximately the same price.
By the time a guy buys a Glock, fixes the extraction/ejection, works the trigger over, and puts on sights, he may have several hundred tied up in it. Say, $140 trigger, $120 in extraction/ejections mods (Apex, etc), and $120 sights on top of a $600 Gen 5...the price of an out of the box HK with serviceable sights seems more attainable.
My brother-in-law bought a VP9 Tactical with night sights and three magazines for $500 out the door (and got three additional magazines from their promo). My buddy just bought a VP9SK LE for $505 out the door that came with three mags and Meprolights. Out of the box, from a rest, these easily out shoot VP9s. As new shooters they both shoot these better than they do my G19s. I actually talked one of them into a G19 first, and he purchased it and more or less doesn't shoot it because he hates it.
Another good friend bought a new G17 for $650 out the door. First thing he did was buy $140 sights. It also shot brass in his face and gave him a big burn. He has about ten Glocks and this was his first experience with a Glock doing this. He believed it only happened to those that limp-worsted their guns. So now he's in for at the least another $70 if not more to correct the issue. He's $860 in on this thing. Is it any cheaper than an HK? An M&P? A 509? Maybe for him since he only owns Glocks and has holsters and magazines. But for the new shooter?
Shooters box themselves in and cannot see out of their own box. To think "Glock or nothing" and "everybody else is an idiot" is myopic.
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My original post was intended for USPs and HK45s in the context of fighting field guns/issued weapons.
Your example of the P30 and VP9 overlooks a few key items:
The P30 isn't striker-fired... and therefore introduces complexities not present in the Glock. Neither has it been tested to the same degree as Glock. Keep in mind that the reason that H&K handguns are considered "equal" to Glocks are because of the USPs and the Mark23. Those two platforms are easily the most tested handgun platforms ever built. They performed so well because they were vetted so extremely. The P30 (and the VP9) do not share this level of testing, so it is too early to consider it an equal in reliability. Throw in an odd safety and decocker arrangement and it's just not as ideal as a Glock from a manual of arms perspective either.
Military and LE users aren't going to replace things like triggers and sights
VP9's were originally much more expensive. The only reason you see them cheap now is, ironically, because no one was buying them because they were priced high (the whole argument of "Glocks are cheaper and the VP9 is striker-fired, so why should I buy it?"). So, they have been listed at liquidation prices for several months now. Even then, no one (comparatively speaking) is buying them. Glocks remain expensive because that's what people will pay for them.
The VP9 has had some pretty bad teething issues (from a duty weapon perspective) and it was not tested to the same degree as previous H&K handguns, so even in light of being cheaper and more accessible, it's still not as proven or reliable (yet).
I'm an H&K fanboy, honestly. I'm just looking at this objectively.
VP9s are cheaper than Gen 5 Glocks right now.
P30s are approximately the same price.
By the time a guy buys a Glock, fixes the extraction/ejection, works the trigger over, and puts on sights, he may have several hundred tied up in it. Say, $140 trigger, $120 in extraction/ejections mods (Apex, etc), and $120 sights on top of a $600 Gen 5...the price of an out of the box HK with serviceable sights seems more attainable.
My brother-in-law bought a VP9 Tactical with night sights and three magazines for $500 out the door (and got three additional magazines from their promo). My buddy just bought a VP9SK LE for $505 out the door that came with three mags and Meprolights. Out of the box, from a rest, these easily out shoot VP9s. As new shooters they both shoot these better than they do my G19s. I actually talked one of them into a G19 first, and he purchased it and more or less doesn't shoot it because he hates it.
Another good friend bought a new G17 for $650 out the door. First thing he did was buy $140 sights. It also shot brass in his face and gave him a big burn. He has about ten Glocks and this was his first experience with a Glock doing this. He believed it only happened to those that limp-worsted their guns. So now he's in for at the least another $70 if not more to correct the issue. He's $860 in on this thing. Is it any cheaper than an HK? An M&P? A 509? Maybe for him since he only owns Glocks and has holsters and magazines. But for the new shooter?
Shooters box themselves in and cannot see out of their own box. To think "Glock or nothing" and "everybody else is an idiot" is myopic.
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None of those "fixes" are mandatory. Even the crappy plastic sights work. Trigger is fine. Aside from being a little stiff in the beginning I never found them to be bad. BTF has largely been fixed. May be a few new old stock still floating around but no complaints for years now. Out of a dozen of my glocks none, not one, needed an extractor. Neither did the ones I traded off. None of the 19.5 have needed one either.
Gen 5 are $565 after tax is $605 here. Older models between $505 and $550.
If you go on HKPro you'll see people having intermittent ejection issues with VP9s using range ammo. Some are fine while others need NATO or +P to function reliably.
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MSparks909
11-01-17, 15:40
My original post was intended for USPs and HK45s in the context of fighting field guns/issued weapons.
Your example of the P30 and VP9 overlooks a few key items:
The P30 isn't striker-fired... and therefore introduces complexities not present in the Glock. Neither has it been tested to the same degree as Glock. Keep in mind that the reason that H&K handguns are considered "equal" to Glocks are because of the USPs and the Mark23. Those two platforms are easily the most tested handgun platforms ever built. They performed so well because they were vetted so extremely. The P30 (and the VP9) do not share this level of testing, so it is too early to consider it an equal in reliability. Throw in an odd safety and decocker arrangement and it's just not as ideal as a Glock from a manual of arms perspective either.
Military and LE users aren't going to replace things like triggers and sights
VP9's were originally much more expensive. The only reason you see them cheap now is, ironically, because no one was buying them because they were priced high (the whole argument of "Glocks are cheaper and the VP9 is striker-fired, so why should I buy it?"). So, they have been listed at liquidation prices for several months now. Even then, no one (comparatively speaking) is buying them. Glocks remain expensive because that's what people will pay for them.
The VP9 has had some pretty bad teething issues (from a duty weapon perspective) and it was not tested to the same degree as previous H&K handguns, so even in light of being cheaper and more accessible, it's still not as proven or reliable (yet).
I'm an H&K fanboy, honestly. I'm just looking at this objectively.
See Pistol-Training’s P30 Endurance Test if you want long term reliability info...93,000+ rounds before failure. A Gen 4 G17 made it ~65,000 before the breech face eroded to the point it started causing feeding malfunctions (brass was getting hung up on the breechface). Sample of one for each but hammer fired HKs are among the most durable pistols on the planet, period. I say this as an owner of Glock, Beretta, HK, Sig, CZ and 1911 pistols. No brand loyalty here, although Beretta 92s seem to fit my shooting needs and wants the best at this moment.
None of those "fixes" are mandatory. Even the crappy plastic sights work. Trigger is fine. Aside from being a little stiff in the beginning I never found them to be bad. BTF has largely been fixed. May be a few new old stock still floating around but no complaints for years now. Out of a dozen of my glocks none, not one, needed an extractor. Neither did the ones I traded off. None of the 19.5 have needed one either.
Gen 5 are $565 after tax is $605 here. Older models between $505 and $550.
If you go on HKPro you'll see people having intermittent ejection issues with VP9s using range ammo. Some are fine while others need NATO or +P to function reliably.
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Glad you've not had the issue. I've had three that did. Those fixes were necessary, otherwise the gun was unreliable.
Yeah sights must be replaced. They break off and often are undersized. I'm sure you've seen Gen 5s with sights way off from the factory as well.
Yes, some VP9s with the stiffer spring don't function well with under-pressure ammo for the first couple hundred rounds. Quality ammo makes even the few that don't run well run fine without intervention.
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Moose-Knuckle
11-01-17, 15:54
Euro,
I didn’t intend to mention a specific member of this forum but I’m tired of the “holier than thou” attitude and constant criticisms of those that shoot anything besides a 6920/G19. It seriously pisses me (and I’m sure a lot of people) off. You epitomize what being a fanboy means. You are so blinded by loyalty to Glock that the mere acceptance that there might be other guns out there that perform better than Glock (or a 6920) goes right over your head.
People need to just pick what they like and drive on, and if that’s happens to be something besides your beloved G19/6920, just shut the f*ck up and let it be. For instance, I own a few Glocks. Have holsters for them but prefer carrying TDA guns for the added safety factor when carrying AIWB. Wanna know something cool? I can shoot all of my guns to about the same level. It isn’t about the gun for me anymore; I look to increasing my performance and don’t really care what gun model or brand I use. I can shoot a Beretta 92/PX4 just as well as I can shoot a Glock. Slightly slower with my HK P30/P30Ls but you get the idea.
Just wish people, aka Euro, would stop questioning everyone that doesn’t share their opinion. Gets old after a while. If I get a timeout for this so be it; had to get this off my chest.
Outstanding post, well stated.
My original post was intended for USPs and HK45s in the context of fighting field guns/issued weapons.
Your example of the P30 and VP9 overlooks a few key items:
The P30 isn't striker-fired... and therefore introduces complexities not present in the Glock. Neither has it been tested to the same degree as Glock. Keep in mind that the reason that H&K handguns are considered "equal" to Glocks are because of the USPs and the Mark23. Those two platforms are easily the most tested handgun platforms ever built. They performed so well because they were vetted so extremely. The P30 (and the VP9) do not share this level of testing, so it is too early to consider it an equal in reliability. Throw in an odd safety and decocker arrangement and it's just not as ideal as a Glock from a manual of arms perspective either.
Military and LE users aren't going to replace things like triggers and sights
VP9's were originally much more expensive. The only reason you see them cheap now is, ironically, because no one was buying them because they were priced high (the whole argument of "Glocks are cheaper and the VP9 is striker-fired, so why should I buy it?"). So, they have been listed at liquidation prices for several months now. Even then, no one (comparatively speaking) is buying them. Glocks remain expensive because that's what people will pay for them.
The VP9 has had some pretty bad teething issues (from a duty weapon perspective) and it was not tested to the same degree as previous H&K handguns, so even in light of being cheaper and more accessible, it's still not as proven or reliable (yet).
I'm an H&K fanboy, honestly. I'm just looking at this objectively.
I don't think either of us are privy to the testing of the VP9 or P30. Just because the FBI or insert agency hasn't tested it doesn't mean it hasn't been. However, this is a distraction to the purpose. And Glock has had issues of their own the last few years. Weren't the M series even recalled just after fielding?
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Eurodriver
11-01-17, 15:58
VP9s are cheaper than Gen 5 Glocks right now.
P30s are approximately the same price.
By the time a guy buys a Glock, fixes the extraction/ejection, works the trigger over, and puts on sights, he may have several hundred tied up in it. Say, $140 trigger, $120 in extraction/ejections mods (Apex, etc), and $120 sights on top of a $600 Gen 5...the price of an out of the box HK with serviceable sights seems more attainable.
My brother-in-law bought a VP9 Tactical with night sights and three magazines for $500 out the door (and got three additional magazines from their promo). My buddy just bought a VP9SK LE for $505 out the door that came with three mags and Meprolights. Out of the box, from a rest, these easily out shoot VP9s. As new shooters they both shoot these better than they do my G19s. I actually talked one of them into a G19 first, and he purchased it and more or less doesn't shoot it because he hates it.
Another good friend bought a new G17 for $650 out the door. First thing he did was buy $140 sights. It also shot brass in his face and gave him a big burn. He has about ten Glocks and this was his first experience with a Glock doing this. He believed it only happened to those that limp-worsted their guns. So now he's in for at the least another $70 if not more to correct the issue. He's $860 in on this thing. Is it any cheaper than an HK? An M&P? A 509? Maybe for him since he only owns Glocks and has holsters and magazines. But for the new shooter?
Shooters box themselves in and cannot see out of their own box. To think "Glock or nothing" and "everybody else is an idiot" is myopic.
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In the Gen5 G19 thread I posted a vide of me shooting a C Zone Ipsc 4/10 times at 160 yards with a bone stock Gen 5 G19.
Smart people only modify Glocks when the value of the modifications greatly outweigh the cost of doing them. Everyone wanna talk about split times, but I'll challenge any VP9 or P30 in the world at 2am on an unlit range at 100 yards with my little friend here. I can be that arrogant because guys with VP9s or P30s don't do shit like this because they aren't about capability they're just about being different.
https://i.imgur.com/unZ1sP7.jpg
Bruh, where you gettin P30s for $495?
Also, if you wanna play tactical barbie with a Glock, that's on you. The only trigger mod that my Glocks get are a factory (-) connector ($20) and some polishing of the internals. After that, it's just a shitload of ammo.
Sights are $90. If you are spending more than that for non-adjustables, you are wrong.
There is absolutely no way that I can get into an HK for the same price as a Glock.
I didn't say P30s for $495. The average Joe cannot purchase a gen 5 Glock for that, either.
$90? Lots of dudes like Trijicon HDs, Heinie, etc. many dudes need somebody else to install them.
If I walk into a gunshop as I'm about to, there are VP9s for $550 with meprolights. There are M&P 2.0s for $425, and Gen 5 G19s for $595.00 with plastic sights.
Which brings the point on Glocks popularity; Bluelabel guns and discounts to departments made Glock the cheap choice in years past. For the civilian shooter, that isn't the case today.
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In the Gen5 G19 thread I posted a vide of me shooting a C Zone Ipsc 4/10 times at 160 yards with a bone stock Gen 5 G19.
Smart people only modify Glocks when the value of the modifications greatly outweigh the cost of doing them. Everyone wanna talk about split times, but I'll challenge any VP9 or P30 in the world at 2am on an unlit range at 100 yards with my little friend here. I can be that arrogant because guys with VP9s or P30s don't do shit like this because they aren't about capability they're just about being different.
https://i.imgur.com/cVkOuGq.jpg
This is one of the silliest posts I've ever seen.
And yes they do. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171101/80617ed78cafc5ed97104e0230f7c4f5.jpg
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Eurodriver
11-01-17, 16:02
This is one of the silliest posts I've ever seen.
And yes they do. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171101/80617ed78cafc5ed97104e0230f7c4f5.jpg
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Where's the video of you shooting 160 yards with a P30 though?
Is that your gun?
Come on man, don't rest on other people's laurels. I'm here posting videos of me doing the shooting, and my pieces. If you're going to talk all this jazz about silliness, then at least show us what you bring to the table homie.
Eurodriver
11-01-17, 16:06
deleted
Doc Safari
11-01-17, 16:17
I don't really think that amounts to much as it's an opinionated guy and anecdotal. He also admits to not liking HK because HK. Over on PT, there is lots of evidence of HKs performing much better than G19s in similar testing.
I tend to believe him because he has a financial interest in guns functioning reliably, otherwise he loses money and customers.
Myself, I've had several Glocks that just don't freaking work without modifications.
And that is also anecdotal evidence, by your definition.
I will counter with my own anecdotal evidence:
I have owned Glocks almost continually since 1992. I have shot thousands of rounds through various models and calibers. I have owned somewhere between ten and fifteen Glocks (usually trading older models or heavily shot pistols for newer ones).
---I can't remember the last time I had a malfunction, and I mean not even what year it might have happened
---I have never felt the need to modify or replace parts on any Glock, except for exactly ONE that had really bad brass-to-face
---Yes, I have changed the sights on nearly every Glock since the mid-1990's, but only because I wanted to. I only ever "needed" to put aftermarket sights on ONE pistol because the OEM front sight shot off.
That's a pretty good record. I can't say that I've ever owned a 1911 that was that trouble free or that didn't get many modifications. I can't speak to too many other pistols: usually if a gun was prone to malfunction, it and every similar pistol was shunned from then on. I have a ton of guns on that list.
I won't argue there is anything wrong with HK, but generally they are double the price, and so they get shunned as well.
Where's the video of you shooting 160 yards with a P30 though?
Is that your gun?
Come on man, don't rest on other people's laurels. I'm here posting videos of me doing the shooting, and my pieces. If you're going to talk all this jazz about silliness, then at least show us what you bring to the table homie.
No, not my gun. That was 3 seconds of google to show you that, yeah, people do that. And no, I don't own a P30. I own mostly G19s.
I don't play fantasy camp and video myself for the internet. However, I can and have shot my handguns with good success at 250. RMR makes it possible for me.
However, this has no bearing on the conversation. Choice in firearm doesn't make one a collector, nor a shooter. That's asinine and short-sighted. You're living in a bubble if you believe that. Don't be so fragile that you can not accept blows to your ego, via others' firearm choices taken as a hit to yours.
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Eurodriver
11-01-17, 16:23
Euro,
I didn’t intend to mention a specific member of this forum but I’m tired of the “holier than thou” attitude and constant criticisms of those that shoot anything besides a 6920/G19. It seriously pisses me (and I’m sure a lot of people) off. You epitomize what being a fanboy means. You are so blinded by loyalty to Glock that the mere acceptance that there might be other guns out there that perform better than Glock (or a 6920) goes right over your head.
People need to just pick what they like and drive on, and if that’s happens to be something besides your beloved G19/6920, just shut the f*ck up and let it be. For instance, I own a few Glocks. Have holsters for them but prefer carrying TDA guns for the added safety factor when carrying AIWB. Wanna know something cool? I can shoot all of my guns to about the same level. It isn’t about the gun for me anymore; I look to increasing my performance and don’t really care what gun model or brand I use. I can shoot a Beretta 92/PX4 just as well as I can shoot a Glock. Slightly slower with my HK P30/P30Ls but you get the idea.
Just wish people, aka Euro, would stop questioning everyone that doesn’t share their opinion. Gets old after a while. If I get a timeout for this so be it; had to get this off my chest.
LOL what are you talking about?
I'm not questioning anything. If people want to be gun nerds and own a bunch of different firearms (and spend the time becoming proficient with them or not) that's totally not my problem. It is still America (thanks to good men and women who are out fighting terrorists, not like Moose-Knuckle who just talks about them) and you can buy and own whichever firearms you wish.
The point is if you want to be a good shooter and only a good shooter most people would be well served by buying a Glock 19 and a whooolleeeeeee bunch of ammo. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that either, are they?
If you want to start collecting guns or find different niches then yeah buy whatever gun you want. Did I ever even say that I had a problem with that? Why would I? Keep the gun industry afloat and keep giving money to Glock's competitors to keep their prices down. Win win for me.
I don't get why people have to get so upset about the premise of this thread, which is Buy a G19 and Practice.
I'm not saying anyone who buys a bunch of guns is an idiot, or stupid, or wrong, or a moron, or anything like that. I'm just saying that the person who buys a bunch of different types of guns is probably more interested in guns than shooting, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that among people who enjoy collecting guns. It's just not my cup of tea.
I'm not offending anyone here am I? With the exception of Moose Knuckle who called me a Muslim Sympathizer even though I have a DD214 and combat deployments to OIF and have fought Muslims (while he has never worn the uniform and is a coward) I don't think I've slung any personal attacks in any thread about the venerable Glock 19. It's just a gun, but if I have I certainly apologize.
Eurodriver
11-01-17, 16:24
No, not my gun. That was 3 seconds of google to show you that, yeah, people do that. And no, I don't own a P30. I own mostly G19s.
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Well, they're gonna have a pretty tough time shooting at night without any illumination. But what do I know?
Yeah sights must be replaced. They break off and often are undersized. I'm sure you've seen Gen 5s with sights way off from the factory as well.
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I'll agree there are better sights and the stock ones are cheap shit but no they don't NEED to be replaced. They work for what they are. I don't bother changing sights till I have a good bit of ammo though the gun. No point if I'm not going to like it or run into problems.
Yes I noticed. From what I understood they are using G43 rear sights?!?!? Not sure if that's 100% accurate or if one has anything to do with the other
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noonesshowmonkey
11-01-17, 16:30
In the Gen5 G19 thread I posted a vide of me shooting a C Zone Ipsc 4/10 times at 160 yards with a bone stock Gen 5 G19.
Smart people only modify Glocks when the value of the modifications greatly outweigh the cost of doing them. Everyone wanna talk about split times, but I'll challenge any VP9 or P30 in the world at 2am on an unlit range at 100 yards with my little friend here. I can be that arrogant because guys with VP9s or P30s don't do shit like this because they aren't about capability they're just about being different.
https://i.imgur.com/unZ1sP7.jpg
That's a sick looking shooter.
Pants are at full mast tent status.
Well, they're gonna have a pretty tough time shooting at night without any illumination. But what do I know?
There is a light on it....
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noonesshowmonkey
11-01-17, 16:52
There is a light on it....
Light != IR Illuminator.
Hurrr durrr.
LOL what are you talking about?
I'm not questioning anything. If people want to be gun nerds and own a bunch of different firearms (and spend the time becoming proficient with them or not) that's totally not my problem. It is still America (thanks to good men and women who are out fighting terrorists, not like Moose-Knuckle who just talks about them) and you can buy and own whichever firearms you wish.
The point is if you want to be a good shooter and only a good shooter most people would be well served by buying a Glock 19 and a whooolleeeeeee bunch of ammo. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that either, are they?
If you want to start collecting guns or find different niches then yeah buy whatever gun you want. Did I ever even say that I had a problem with that? Why would I? Keep the gun industry afloat and keep giving money to Glock's competitors to keep their prices down. Win win for me.
I don't get why people have to get so upset about the premise of this thread, which is Buy a G19 and Practice.
I'm not saying anyone who buys a bunch of guns is an idiot, or stupid, or wrong, or a moron, or anything like that. I'm just saying that the person who buys a bunch of different types of guns is probably more interested in guns than shooting, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that among people who enjoy collecting guns. It's just not my cup of tea.
I'm not offending anyone here am I? With the exception of Moose Knuckle who called me a Muslim Sympathizer even though I have a DD214 and combat deployments to OIF and have fought Muslims (while he has never worn the uniform and is a coward) I don't think I've slung any personal attacks in any thread about the venerable Glock 19. It's just a gun, but if I have I certainly apologize.
Why couldn't one buy a M&P and shoot it a bunch? Or anything else? Whys it G19 or nothing?
That seems to be the problem with guys. The attitude is this or nothing. It's about the shooter and the skill, not the tool to do it with. There is such an emotional attachment to this brand or that.
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Light != IR Illuminator.
Hurrr durrr.
Yeah most work both ways. Stupid is as stupid does. People challenging people to duels because they don't like their choice in gun is pretty stupid.
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LOL what are you talking about?
I'm not questioning anything. If people want to be gun nerds and own a bunch of different firearms (and spend the time becoming proficient with them or not) that's totally not my problem. It is still America (thanks to good men and women who are out fighting terrorists, not like Moose-Knuckle who just talks about them) and you can buy and own whichever firearms you wish.
The point is if you want to be a good shooter and only a good shooter most people would be well served by buying a Glock 19 and a whooolleeeeeee bunch of ammo. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that either, are they?
If you want to start collecting guns or find different niches then yeah buy whatever gun you want. Did I ever even say that I had a problem with that? Why would I? Keep the gun industry afloat and keep giving money to Glock's competitors to keep their prices down. Win win for me.
I don't get why people have to get so upset about the premise of this thread, which is Buy a G19 and Practice.
I'm not saying anyone who buys a bunch of guns is an idiot, or stupid, or wrong, or a moron, or anything like that. I'm just saying that the person who buys a bunch of different types of guns is probably more interested in guns than shooting, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that among people who enjoy collecting guns. It's just not my cup of tea.
I'm not offending anyone here am I? With the exception of Moose Knuckle who called me a Muslim Sympathizer even though I have a DD214 and combat deployments to OIF and have fought Muslims (while he has never worn the uniform and is a coward) I don't think I've slung any personal attacks in any thread about the venerable Glock 19. It's just a gun, but if I have I certainly apologize.
Euro making M4C great again!
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Euro,
I didn’t intend to mention a specific member of this forum but I’m tired of the “holier than thou” attitude and constant criticisms of those that shoot anything besides a 6920/G19. It seriously pisses me (and I’m sure a lot of people) off. You epitomize what being a fanboy means. You are so blinded by loyalty to Glock that the mere acceptance that there might be other guns out there that perform better than Glock (or a 6920) goes right over your head.
People need to just pick what they like and drive on, and if that’s happens to be something besides your beloved G19/6920, just shut the f*ck up and let it be. For instance, I own a few Glocks. Have holsters for them but prefer carrying TDA guns for the added safety factor when carrying AIWB. Wanna know something cool? I can shoot all of my guns to about the same level. It isn’t about the gun for me anymore; I look to increasing my performance and don’t really care what gun model or brand I use. I can shoot a Beretta 92/PX4 just as well as I can shoot a Glock. Slightly slower with my HK P30/P30Ls but you get the idea.
Just wish people, aka Euro, would stop questioning everyone that doesn’t share their opinion. Gets old after a while. If I get a timeout for this so be it; had to get this off my chest.
Outstanding post!!!!
And 100% on target.
His posts on this thread sound like a pre-teen girl defending her favorite rock star. Remember the highly circulated video of the girl crying and slinging snot defending Britney Spears against any criticism? Same thing here except it's crying about perceived attacks on the Glock 19. Cry, sniffle, snort and whine.
It will go unheeded by That Guy I'm sure but many, many people are just like me. They really like Glocks in general and the Model 19 in particular. But, they may not think its the greatest handgun ever made. And that doesn't mean that they are stupid, potbellied, arm-chair-only shooters, or troglodytes.
This should be a discussion board and not a safe space where a snowflake goes to hear only opinions that agree with their own. And those who have a different opinion shouldn't be subjected to name calling or having their motives, shooting ability or physical fitness questioned.
Some person here needs to grow up.
Outlander Systems
11-01-17, 17:23
Alright.
Less flip da script.
I have no handguns. Zero. Nada tacos. Nothingburgers.
What do you guys recommend, and why?
Bruh, where you gettin P30s for $495?
Also, if you wanna play tactical barbie with a Glock, that's on you. The only trigger mod that my Glocks get are a factory (-) connector ($20) and some polishing of the internals. After that, it's just a shitload of ammo.
Sights are $90. If you are spending more than that for non-adjustables, you are wrong.
There is absolutely no way that I can get into an HK for the same price as a Glock.
Cheap p30s are out there. Mostly they .40, but a friend just bought a P30 in 9mm for $499. ****er won't sell it to me either.
Alright.
Less flip da script.
I have no handguns. Zero. Nada tacos. Nothingburgers.
What do you guys recommend, and why?
I always default to “go shoot a few” and narrow it down from there. And the local guys that have asked me, I always make sure they get their hands on the usual suspects:
-G19/17 - easy to be proficient, aftermarket support, reliability
-M&P9 - for the reasons listed above, availability of manual safety for those used to it (fmr 1911 guys for example)
-maybe VP9/PPQ, have seen a few smaller handed folks who are way more comfortable with European mag release
Of the above, it’s whatever they shoot better, are more comfortable with (reachability of controls), etc.
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In the Gen5 G19 thread I posted a vide of me shooting a C Zone Ipsc 4/10 times at 160 yards with a bone stock Gen 5 G19.
Smart people only modify Glocks when the value of the modifications greatly outweigh the cost of doing them. Everyone wanna talk about split times, but I'll challenge any VP9 or P30 in the world at 2am on an unlit range at 100 yards with my little friend here. I can be that arrogant because guys with VP9s or P30s don't do shit like this because they aren't about capability they're just about being different.
Cute pistol.
Were those 10 shots you fired at 160 fired cold, or the ten you fired after you figured out where to hold?
There is a difference.
I shoot slugs at pepper poppers, and hit, one-handed at 75 yards, cold - it was a routine thing the range staff did called 'bragging rights slugs.' Are we special too?
Outlander Systems
11-01-17, 17:39
These are valid, objective arguments. Well done.
I always default to “go shoot a few” and narrow it down from there. And the local guys that have asked me, I always make sure they get their hands on the usual suspects:
-G19/17 - easy to be proficient, aftermarket support, reliability
-M&P9 - for the reasons listed above, availability of manual safety for those used to it (fmr 1911 guys for example)
-maybe VP9/PPQ, have seen a few smaller handed folks who are way more comfortable with European mag release
Of the above, it’s whatever they shoot better, are more comfortable with (reachability of controls), etc.
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Alright.
Less flip da script.
I have no handguns. Zero. Nada tacos. Nothingburgers.
What do you guys recommend, and why?
What size glove do you wear? With which # Captains of Crush Gripper can you do 10 complete to closure reps? What is your dominant hand? Are you proficient in using hand tools such as wrenches and pliers, or, do you fumble around with them? Can you tap your foot, rub your tummy and pat your head at the same time? How big are your feet? Does your Johnson still have it's helmet? Most importantly, where will you wear the go-pro used to film your epic feats of derring-do?
These are all important considerations and I can't give you a suggestion without this info.
Why couldn't one buy a M&P and shoot it a bunch? Or anything else? Whys it G19 or nothing?
That seems to be the problem with guys. The attitude is this or nothing. It's about the shooter and the skill, not the tool to do it with. There is such an emotional attachment to this brand or that.
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Agreed. Why does it have to be a G19? Doesn’t the logic apply to any gun? Shoot it to become proficient and get past shortcomings and weaknesses regardless of the gun. Lots of quality guns out there.
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