View Full Version : Blast Forwad Device
Not sure if this belongs in general or technical, but I've been reading about various versions of Blast Forward Devices, and they have me interested.
I like the idea of being able to go prone and on my side without worrying about kicking debris back into my face, but even more I like the idea of making it even a little quieter for me. I know BFDs are not supressors - they doesn't quiet the gun, they just move the sound signature in a different direction.
Shooting outside at the range, with ear plugs and ear muffs over them, my AR is still loud. Once time recently, my cheek weld popped the seal on my muffs and the one round I fired made my ears ring for days, and that was shooting outside. I don't even want to think about the decibles if I had to use it inside, with walls around me.
I've read of different designs but I have never tried any (and I can't afford to go out and buy several to experiment with). I tried searching Blast Forwad Device but nothing useful came up (unless I missed it).
What is the concensus on these devices? Do they really make it quieter for the shooter? If so, how much quieter? Enough to make a useful difference? If I put one on my AR, can I get by with just plugs, or just muffs? Which brands work the best, and which don't?
I expect recoil to increase a little, but an AR doesn't recoil much anyway, so I'm not too concerned about this. I know I can go thru the process of buying a true suppressor, and that might be the best option, but it's a lot more money and (as I understand the laws) there are states where I cannot have one with me. The BFD might be a useful alternative.
FWIW, I have a standard A2 bird cage on my AR right now.
Any feedback would be welcomed.
I had one, and liked it well enough. It does change the recall impulse a little bit. It also depends on the type of shooting you like doing. Shooting under cover, my buddy's forward brake seemed much more pleasant than people who had conventional brakes. In short, if the current noise annoys you, it's worth a try. And I'll even lend you my device (Covert Comp by Black River Tactical). I just ask that you give the thread feedback. PM me if you are interested.
I put one of these on my AR pistol while I was waiting for my stamps - did not want to spend a lot of money on something I was going to take off:
https://www.kakindustry.com/ar-15-parts/upper-parts/barrels/barrel-parts/flash-hiders-and-muzzle-breaks/1-2-28-threads/kak-industry-flash-can
It worked surprisingly well, so much so that I put it on another upper.
From my experiences shooting a friend's rifle with one, the Noveske Flaming Pig would be one step above, but not much:
http://www.primaryarms.com/noveske-kx5-flaming-pig-flash-suppressor-slim-1-2x28-nvkx5-12x28
Ned Christiansen
10-29-17, 11:44
The pig rules in this regard.
Easily noticed reduction in noise from the shooter's perspective, or line mates to the side.
KX3, KX5, I can't tell the dif, they seem equal in their ability to take the painful peak off the noise.
A linear comp will increase the pressures though, right? I would think that would have to be taken into consideration for how the rifle runs overall.
Also, is there any consideration to be given to how a linear comp is mounted, i.e. under the handguard or sticking out?
TomMontana
10-29-17, 12:38
I have the Kak and MI flash cans, Kaw Valley linear comp and the Fortis muzzle brake and blast shield combo. They all work well enough to minimize the concussion to your neighbors. I don't really notice the sound difference too much. My experience is on short barrels only, so it's loud regardless. The significant difference is that the Fortis combo looks way cooler but it cost $100+ more than the flash cans.
My SBRs without the cans would be painful w/o the blast deflector over the brakes. I can’t imagine how obnoxious my 7.5” pistol would be sans KX5.
Next range trip I want to try the deflector on a 16” over a Griffin flash comp taper mount just because.
The Noveske KX3 seems to work the best, though I would suspect this is in part due to its design as well as the larger width taking the sound down in tone. There are cheaper knock offs of the KX3 that look similar, but are functionally different. While there is question as to how well they work when compared to the original, a large portion of this is going to be a matter of the individual shooter. Someone like myself is not going to see the difference after a lifetime of gunfire, jet engines and explosions, versus someone who has great hearing and is noise sensitive.
Jumping down in size to the KX5 sized devices, there are a few different options, including the narwhal which is made by Vltor, and a host of cheaper or lesser known sized devices.
Lastly, we come down to the linear sized devices, of which there are also a handful of different makes, designs, and manufacturers. These do not seem to work as well typically as the above, but again, much of this is going to be a personal matter based on each persons unique physiology.
Lastly, I have not tried each and every of the devices known, and none of the above is meant to include blast shields which go over a compensator. Barrel length plays an obvious part (and very large part), but for this I'm assuming we are all talking about a 16" barrel and making comparisons to using the same barrel length, not using one device on a 10.5, and another on a 20".
I have a linear compensator (BRT Mini comp) on my 20" barreled AR.
It reduces the blast and pressure beside the rifle and behind it when I fire from a covered shooting position (more so than a bare muzzle). That was my intent when I built the rifle for the range and hunting.
My rifle with the linear comp kicks up less debris/dust from the prone than my A2 and BCM Mod 0 equipped 16" carbines, even when the gun is upright.
They do, as advertised, push the blast downrange and generally make the rifle a lot more pleasant to be around, but I cannot tell if my rifle is quieter for the shooter in open air.
If you crank off a rifle inside a building the muzzle device won't matter to you unless you have a silencer.
Andy
P.S. I cannot tell that the BRT Mini comp increases back pressure or affects the operation of my rifle at all.
It seems the consensus is these devices do what they advertise, but they are better at reducing the concussion off to the side of the shooter rather than reducing the sound signature at the shooter's ears. They may reduce the crack, but they don't make shooting without any hearing protection less painful or less dangerous.
I've read about the Noveske, Griffin Armament, Indian Creek, Black River Tactical and GRG BFDs. The Noveske seems to get the best overall reviews while the Black River Tactical seemed to have the best sound reduction from the videos I watched on You Tube. It seems that I will still need both plugs and muffs, especially if shooting indoors.
If you had to fire your AR indoors, without hearing protection, would one of these BFDs at least reduce the disorientation and damage to short term, or are we still looking at permanent damage?
I also never considered if BFDs may cause some kind of back pressure problem effecting reliability. I this a concern?
“... they are better at reducing the concussion off to the side of the shooter rather than reducing the sound signature at the shooter's ears. They may reduce the crack...”
Not my experience. The crack (sonic boom) is the same, downrange of the muzzle. The explosive muzzle blast is much more comfortable to both shooter and neighbors, at least at a covered outdoor range. (I don’t do indoors.) Expecting no ear-pro levels without a can is not realistic IMO no matter what the muzzle attachment.
jackblack73
10-29-17, 23:39
Don't these things increase the fireball too? Personally, I'd get a good flash hider. I use the Dead Air flash hider on all my rifles.
Don't these things increase the fireball too? Personally, I'd get a good flash hider. I use the Dead Air flash hider on all my rifles.
The KX5 does. Flash hider under Griffin blast shield still works pretty well.
My SBRs without the cans would be painful w/o the blast deflector over the brakes. I can’t imagine how obnoxious my 7.5” pistol would be sans KX5.
Next range trip I want to try the deflector on a 16” over a Griffin flash comp taper mount just because.
I put a linear comp on my 7.5 pistol build it toned it down quite a bit. I cant wear muffs so I just use the surefire plugs with the "thingys" in the baffles.
Another option you might want to look at it the PWS CQB. We have one on a range rifle and it has done pretty well at taking some of the concussion you feel away when shooting indoors. It also has a flash hiding endcap which most of the other linear devices do not. Granted it costs more than some, but we have been pretty happy with it. If I was building an SBR upper and not looking to suppress it, I would seriously consider the PWS option.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530AZ using Tapatalk
SomeOtherGuy
10-30-17, 14:39
I have used the "Kies Blast Master" comp, which is discontinued but very similar to many others still on the market, like the old DPMS Levang and the current Kaw Valley Precision. I also have the similar but not quite the same "Simple Threaded Device." I've done back to back testing vs. other devices outside in open air, and under a square-range roof, prone, standing, sitting cross legged on the ground, and sitting at a bench.
Overall, I find that these devices just barely do what's claimed. I wouldn't consider any of them safe for use without ear protection. Their recoil impulse is OK, but not reduced, just slightly softened over time.
Here is a great, methodical and instrumented test that includes some devices:
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/uncategorized/ar-15-muzzle-device-comparison/
If you look at measured SPL levels you'll see that the AAC Blackout flash hider is second to lowest SPL, and a lot quieter than even most flash hiders. The STD device is louder in this test. This matches my personal testing experience, which is not instrumented. The AAC Blackout is surprisingly quiet and free of blast, and it's also a terrific flash hider. If you want the quietest and least blasty device that doesn't require a $200 tax stamp, check out the AAC Blackout. There are also similar flash hiders made by other companies that might work as well, but I haven't tried the others, only the AAC.
Ned Christiansen
10-30-17, 15:42
The noise that the KX's take from the shooter is hurled downrange with a vengeance inside a 90 degree or so arc. I've been forward of a KX3 while doing flash hider testing and from that perspective it is very loud, but it does a good job as a flash hider.
A lot of good information here. They seem to work, but just how well seems to be more a matter of opinion. This link was particularly interesting. Thanks to SomeOtherGuy for it...
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/uncategorized/ar-15-muzzle-device-comparison/
This was very enlightening...
...the difference between the loudest and quietest device (measured to the left of the muzzle) was approximately 8 decibels. Considering that a 10 decibel difference makes something sound twice as loud, these differences should not be considered entirely minor.
My primary interest in a BFD was to reduce the sound signature of my AR reaching my ears to the level of a handgun, particularly indoors. If I or my wife ever needed to grab a rifle in a home invasion / self defense situation, and didn't have time or opportunity to put on adequate hearing protection, my AR with its current Bird Cage would just be too loud - to the point of causing permanent hearing damage. I was hoping to avoid that without the expense or restrictions of a supressor, but that might have been wishful thinking.
There do seem to be a couple of BFDs that may offer enough of a sound redirection to make them worthwhile, but not to the point of doing what I had originally wanted.
If suppressors ever become over the counter without the $200 tax stamp, I think super short cans might sell in the millions.
SomeOtherGuy
11-01-17, 09:11
My primary interest in a BFD was to reduce the sound signature of my AR reaching my ears to the level of a handgun, particularly indoors. If I or my wife ever needed to grab a rifle in a home invasion / self defense situation, and didn't have time or opportunity to put on adequate hearing protection, my AR with its current Bird Cage would just be too loud - to the point of causing permanent hearing damage. I was hoping to avoid that without the expense or restrictions of a supressor, but that might have been wishful thinking.
Even a centerfire handgun (9mm, .40 etc.) is going to be so loud indoors that it will cause hearing damage. I haven't shot at an indoor range in about 10 years because, even with the best ear protection, I find it painfully loud. I can't imagine any unsuppressed centerfire rifle being ear safe indoors. If that's a goal, consider a 300BLK with purely subsonic ammo and a good sound suppressor.
A friend of mine keeps electronic ear muffs next to his home defense gun. Whether he would have time to put it on is uncertain, but it's not a bad idea. Realistically though - I have no idea what is realistic for a home defense scenario, or how wide a range they might fall in. If you have time for earpro, how about body armor? Safety glasses?
Muffs are not a bad idea, neither is a plate carrier. I suppose it's a "game-time" decision. Is bad guy just down the hallway only feet from contact, or is he still trying to kick down your main entrance door? Lot's of variables to weigh out.
I do have experience shooting in my house with long guns and handguns. Even with ear pro, 5.56 is shockingly loud. The concussion can be felt in my chest and head. The walls seem to resonate (ring). I'm pretty sure during a home invasion/life or death situation, this wouldn't matter much, but I wanted to share my first hand experience with folks that do not have the means to try for themselves. It's not at all like the movies.
Even a centerfire handgun (9mm, .40 etc.) is going to be so loud indoors that it will cause hearing damage. I haven't shot at an indoor range in about 10 years because, even with the best ear protection, I find it painfully loud. I can't imagine any unsuppressed centerfire rifle being ear safe indoors. If that's a goal, consider a 300BLK with purely subsonic ammo and a good sound suppressor.
A friend of mine keeps electronic ear muffs next to his home defense gun. Whether he would have time to put it on is uncertain, but it's not a bad idea. Realistically though - I have no idea what is realistic for a home defense scenario, or how wide a range they might fall in. If you have time for earpro, how about body armor? Safety glasses?
https://dqzrr9k4bjpzk.cloudfront.net/images/812059/294588149.jpg
It sounds like our BRT Covert Comp would meet your needs nicely.
As mentioned before, they do a nice job of knocking the blast down, even on a short barrel.
We routinely shoot with just earplugs and it is a non-issue.
There is no noticeable increase in gas drive with the Covert Comp.
Just earplugs indoors? Down a hallway (with walls, ceiling and floor to create a tunnel effect)? I'm skeptical.
However, I am beginning to think one of these devices (perhaps the BRT) along with a set of muffs kept next to my AR is the short-term way to go. I won't have time to properly roll and insert plugs, but muffs should be faster. When I took LFI-1 a thousand years ago, Mas recommended a set of Wolf Ears (no longer in production, I believe) as a way to both protect hearing and help identify low intensity sounds as well as direction of sounds. Was good advise then (just beyond my finances at the time), may be even better advise now.
Just earplugs indoors? Down a hallway (with walls, ceiling and floor to create a tunnel effect)? I'm skeptical.
Sorry, outdoors. We rarely shoot indoors. Just not a pleasant environment with rifles.
Reading over the comments do people think that a blast device (linear comp? same thing?) will also reduce flash?
Looking at the possibility of running a KX5 on a 10.3" carbine, replacing a birdcage. I'm mainly looking at reducing the concussion to the shooter, as well as those that may be inline with or behind the shooter. I shoot indoors occasionally. What does the KX5 do for flash?
Looking at the possibility of running a KX5 on a 10.3" carbine, replacing a birdcage. I'm mainly looking at reducing the concussion to the shooter, as well as those that may be inline with or behind the shooter. I shoot indoors occasionally. What does the KX5 do for flash?
I don't see any flash during the day out of my 9" 300 blackout, but there is much more noticeable muzzle rise. And everything is thrown down range, I normally have my spotter scope beside where I shoot and it use to knock it over. Now it's a non issue.
Looking at the possibility of running a KX5 on a 10.3" carbine, replacing a birdcage. I'm mainly looking at reducing the concussion to the shooter, as well as those that may be inline with or behind the shooter. I shoot indoors occasionally. What does the KX5 do for flash?
Super Flash! the KX5 is called the flaming pig for a reason. Lots of muzzle flash
yep found a youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZJq9yuXvpQ
here is a comparison of KX5 vs YHM vs another (YHM wins both in flash hiding and in cost) But no idea about the blast...but probably about the same as an A2 extended which I have used which = lots of concussion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noILkUEFcmA
I have been very happy with my JP 3 Prong 556L flash hider.
It is an extended 3 prong flash hider.
NO Flash at all at a dim indoor range. Blast is also directed forwards. 11.5 barrel using full house 5.56 loads.
SomeOtherGuy
11-02-17, 20:29
Reading over the comments do people think that a blast device (linear comp? same thing?) will also reduce flash?
I think this will vary among the specific devices. There are some videos online of the BRT Covert Comp that seem to show minimal flash. I wouldn't assume other brands will be as good.
Flash is not always easily predictable. I have a relatively conventional brake that seems to suppress flash at least as well as an A2, while most brakes cause huge flashes. Ammo type and barrel length makes a huge difference as well.
If you want no flash, along with low blast and low (relatively) noise, did I mention the AAC Blackout? Why yes, I think I did. Great flash hider and surprisingly good on the other areas. I have no affiliation with AAC, I'm just impressed with that overall performance. Other companies make similar flash hiders (three long prongs with an inside diameter barely larger than the bullet) that I assume will do the same, but can't vouch for.
So.. What is the best case compromise between concussion reduction, recoil reduction, and flash suppression on an SBR, short of a suppressor?
Ned Christiansen
11-02-17, 22:55
I sure never saw a KX3 throw that much flash but not saying it couldn't happen. When they get packed full of carbon, they don't do as good of a job, that I have observed. Happy to say I have almost zero experience with 7.5" barrels, that doesn't help either though, pretty sure ;-).
I sure never saw a KX3 throw that much flash but not saying it couldn't happen. When they get packed full of carbon, they don't do as good of a job, that I have observed. Happy to say I have almost zero experience with 7.5" barrels, that doesn't help either though, pretty sure ;-).
Same here with my KX5, even the comments on the first video are calling BS and saying he's using crappy ammo on purpose.
My KX3 has a decent flash signature ( definitely as others have stated much more pronounced with dirty ammo,) but what did people expect from a product literally called the "Flaming Pig." I have it on a 13.7 carbine and have been very happy with mine. I have cleaned the cone, as it was recommended maintenance for the unit when I received it. Don't recall having any issue with it's removal or re installation like others have stated though. I like it particularly when shooting with others, my friends commented on how much less side blast they notice when I shoot it.
I had a spikes barking spider on my 300 blk sbr until my can came it. It seemed to reduce noise at my ear while also increasing back pressure enough to cycle subs without the can.
I just returned from trying out the Griffin blast shield on a taper mount flash-comp (old style with the holes, not slots) - 16” 300BLK. I’d previously used the shield on an SBR with mini-brake where it makes a big difference to shooter and neighbors. Still offensive so the suppressor is full time now.
On the long barrel sound improvement was noticable (150g supers) on a covered bench, but minimal compared to the 9”. My main purpose was to see how the recoil, POI was affected. No difference that I could tell. I think I’ll leave it on in lieu of the thread protector just for the tiny can look.
My fingers were frozen so I had a short session. Flaky white stuff falling now.
Most other linear blast type devices do not address flash effectively.
If an AR leaves your ears ringing for days with plugs in, outdoors, there's something wrong. Either they're horrible plugs or you don't have them inserted properly. Are they sticking out of your ears much? They should be in there DEEP.
If an AR leaves your ears ringing for days with plugs in, outdoors, there's something wrong. Either they're horrible plugs or you don't have them inserted properly. Are they sticking out of your ears much? They should be in there DEEP.
Not sure if you are referreing to my OP, but if so, I wasn't wearing plugs at the time, just muffs, and the seal on the right side was broken from contact with my rifle stock just as I took the shot. These were older muffs, with "fat" ear cups. I have since learned my lesson, and I run foam plugs (typcially 29db 3Ms or 33db Howard Leight Max) along with muffs no matter what or where I am shooting. I have a set of Walker 31db muffs and a set of Howard Leight Impact Sport electronic muffs rated at 22bd - both thin enough to not be a problem with my rifle stock. The Sordins were always out of my price range, but I may have to rethink this.
Having read all the responces here, I think the rational for my OP was not well thought out. The BFD seems to do a good job of reducing the debris kickback, concussion and "crack" when outdoors, but aren't going to do what I had wanted indoors. If I don't want a suppressor and I want to protect my hearing should I ever need to use my firearm indoors, it looks like I need to invest in high end electronic muffs and keep them ready for immediate use.
If I have time to get to my rifle, I should have time to throw on a set of muffs.
Not sure if you are referreing to my OP, but if so, I wasn't wearing plugs at the time, just muffs, and the seal on the right side was broken from contact with my rifle stock just as I took the shot. These were older muffs, with "fat" ear cups. I have since learned my lesson, and I run foam plugs (typcially 29db 3Ms or 33db Howard Leight Max) along with muffs no matter what or where I am shooting. I have a set of Walker 31db muffs and a set of Howard Leight Impact Sport electronic muffs rated at 22bd - both thin enough to not be a problem with my rifle stock. The Sordins were always out of my price range, but I may have to rethink this.
Having read all the responces here, I think the rational for my OP was not well thought out. The BFD seems to do a good job of reducing the debris kickback, concussion and "crack" when outdoors, but aren't going to do what I had wanted indoors. If I don't want a suppressor and I want to protect my hearing should I ever need to use my firearm indoors, it looks like I need to invest in high end electronic muffs and keep them ready for immediate use.
If I have time to get to my rifle, I should have time to throw on a set of muffs.
IMHO
You don't need high end ear muffs
I've been to many uspsa matches and even the grandmaster
Level shooters usually are seen using $40 Howard leight electronic muffs
I believe The sordins would probably be more suited for heavy
Field use and with comms units
https://dqzrr9k4bjpzk.cloudfront.net/images/812059/294588149.jpg
It sounds like our BRT Covert Comp would meet your needs nicely.
As mentioned before, they do a nice job of knocking the blast down, even on a short barrel.
We routinely shoot with just earplugs and it is a non-issue.
There is no noticeable increase in gas drive with the Covert Comp.
i concur with Clint - http://www.blackrivertactical.com/concrete5/covert-comp/
i have an extra one i can offer you: BRT Covert Linear Compensator (223/308 dual-size using their special insert: 1/2x28 and 5/8x24), tested once, like new
if interested, email me at wileycoyote4u (at) gmail.com
Not sure if you are referreing to my OP, but if so, I wasn't wearing plugs at the time, just muffs, and the seal on the right side was broken from contact with my rifle stock just as I took the shot. These were older muffs, with "fat" ear cups. I have since learned my lesson, and I run foam plugs (typcially 29db 3Ms or 33db Howard Leight Max) along with muffs no matter what or where I am shooting. I have a set of Walker 31db muffs and a set of Howard Leight Impact Sport electronic muffs rated at 22bd - both thin enough to not be a problem with my rifle stock. The Sordins were always out of my price range, but I may have to rethink this.
Having read all the responces here, I think the rational for my OP was not well thought out. The BFD seems to do a good job of reducing the debris kickback, concussion and "crack" when outdoors, but aren't going to do what I had wanted indoors. If I don't want a suppressor and I want to protect my hearing should I ever need to use my firearm indoors, it looks like I need to invest in high end electronic muffs and keep them ready for immediate use.
If I have time to get to my rifle, I should have time to throw on a set of muffs.I guess I interpreted your post wrong - I thought you were doubled up and broke a seal, rather than muffs only and broke a seal.
I see a lot of people who don't insert their ear plugs anywhere near far enough (most of it sticks out) and then aren't happy with how much their ears ring.
Yeah, I wasn't very clear in my OP. It does look like I was wearing plugs and muffs, but that revelation came later. At the time my muff seal broke, I was using my original handgun-era muffs with fat ear pieces and I was shooting my first AR. Bad combination.
Following this episode, I bought the Walkers with their high db rating for shooting on my own and the Howard Leight electronic muffs for use in classes, but always now with plugs (and I try very hard to put them in properly). Also, I made sure both muffs had relatively thin ear peices and didn't interefere with my AR stock. They're not perfect, but I'm not sure what is.
https://dqzrr9k4bjpzk.cloudfront.net/images/812059/294588149.jpg
It sounds like our BRT Covert Comp would meet your needs nicely.
As mentioned before, they do a nice job of knocking the blast down, even on a short barrel.
We routinely shoot with just earplugs and it is a non-issue.
There is no noticeable increase in gas drive with the Covert Comp.
For legal purposes, is this listed as a comp or a flash hider? I live in NJ so for me it matters.
For legal purposes, is this listed as a comp or a flash hider? I live in NJ so for me it matters.
seems they only call it a Comp on their site. "flashing hider" isn't mentioned as far as i can see:
http://www.blackrivertactical.com/concrete5/covert-comp/
seems they only call it a Comp on their site. "flashing hider" isn't mentioned as far as i can see:
http://www.blackrivertactical.com/concrete5/covert-comp/While they don't specifically say flash hider in as many words, they do say:
It provides low light performance nearly as good as the common A2 style muzzle device.
That sounds to me like it's a flash hider.
yes, it may function as that, but they don't call it that.
not knowing how NJ law reads, that might be an important distinction.
I don't know NJ law either, but in CA if it's advertised as reducing flash it counts as one. While they don't say the magic words, I wouldn't risk it here.
I don't know NJ law either, but in CA if it's advertised as reducing flash it counts as one. While they don't say the magic words, I wouldn't risk it here.
good to know
I always thought the KX3, ect were designed for shorter barrel rifles (or AR pistols) and didn't work as well on 16" barrels.
I always thought the KX3, ect were designed for shorter barrel rifles (or AR pistols) and didn't work as well on 16" barrels.
I have a BRT Mini Comp on a 20" barreled AR-15 and it works as advertised, I am sure the effect is more dramatic with a shorter barrel.
Andy
556BlackRifle
12-03-17, 13:42
OP, nothing wrong with an A2 birdcage for rifle use. That said, for SBR or AR pistols, a blast shield is a good way to go. It may throw a fireball but the people standing next to you will really appreciate that the blast wave doesn't hit them while you're shooting. I have a 10.5" pistol with a KX5 and it works well at keeping the blast wave forward. If you replace your A2BC with one, you'll notice two things. 1_ a fireball and 2_ no muzzle rise mitigation.
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