View Full Version : Green Beret found strangled in Mali; 2 DEVGRU guys being questioned
SF guy found strangled to death in Mali. Naval CID has brought 2 DEVGRU (ST6) guys back to the states for questioning. Very strange situation. Personal vendetta or were they up to no good and the SF dude found out?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/30/report-two-navy-seals-eyed-in-strangulation-green-beret-in-mali.html
Beat me to the punch. What I found is maybe the guys were wrestling and things went too far. Other more sinister speculation is the SEALS were doing some shady stuff and SF Sgt found out...and was silenced before he could become a liability. In any event I doubt we will know what really happened and why.
This stink bug balls. We will likely never know what happened, but I certainly hope that it’s not something criminal in nature.
Beat me to the punch. What I found is maybe the guys were wrestling and things went too far.
Welp... that settles it then. SEALS > Rangers.
ClearedHot
10-30-17, 15:42
Welp... that settles it then. SEALS > Rangers.
Except the guy was SF and it took 2 SEALs...
Except the guy was SF and it took 2 SEALs...
Asymmetrical warfare, biotch. :P
Asymmetrical warfare, biotch. :P
I almost spit out my drink lol. That is awesome... Sad that a Ranger lost his life, funny comment.
Beat me to the punch. What I found is maybe the guys were wrestling and things went too far. Other more sinister speculation is the SEALS were doing some shady stuff and SF Sgt found out...and was silenced before he could become a liability. In any event I doubt we will know what really happened and why.
Either scenario, I'd hope that kind of thing wouldn't even be possible let alone somehow sanctioned.
If it turns out that two members of the Navy killed a member of the US Army without serious justification they need to be pounding big rocks into little rocks for the rest of their natural days. If it turns out that they were ordered to take such action the person that issued the order should spend the rest of his days pounding big rocks into little rocks and the two who carried out the orders should spend the rest of their days doing time for following an immoral order.
I don't care how far up the "importance tier" ladder they are, some shit is just completely unacceptable no matter what.
Either scenario, I'd hope that kind of thing wouldn't even be possible let alone somehow sanctioned.
If it turns out that two members of the Navy killed a member of the US Army without serious justification they need to be pounding big rocks into little rocks for the rest of their natural days. If it turns out that they were ordered to take such action the person that issued the order should spend the rest of his days pounding big rocks into little rocks and the two who carried out the orders should spend the rest of their days doing time for following an immoral order.
I don't care how far up the "importance tier" ladder they are, some shit is just completely unacceptable no matter what.
Disagree. If it was a premeditated criminal act, shoot them. If someone ordered them to do it shoot them too. There are plenty of folks looking to kill these types. No need to worry about your own.
I certainly hope its not some nefarious criminal activity as that would bring up some serious questions that not a souks wants to ask.
Disagree. If it was a premeditated criminal act, shoot them. If someone ordered them to do it shoot them too. There are plenty of folks looking to kill these types. No need to worry about your own.
Shooting is an honorable death for a soldier. Too good for them. Make gravel until you can't lift the hammer any more then get the rope.
These particular SEALs were the top of the food chain, right up there with Delta. The thought of criminal activity is really disconcerting.
I heard on the radio this morning that Army CID turned it over to Naval CID; must've been a reason other than just jurisdiction over the 2 Navy guys. Maybe because they saw a need for potential prosecution?
If you recall there were two former SEALs who died of heroin overdoses working as shipping security contractors a year or two ago. Don't think they were ex-DEVGRU but still.
Could there be a relationship between what happened to SSG Melgar in Mali and the ambush in Niger?
Shooting is an honorable death for a soldier. Too good for them. Make gravel until you can't lift the hammer any more then get the rope.
I’m good with that, so long as they take dirt naps if this was some purposeful criminal activity.
Could there be a relationship between what happened to SSG Melgar in Mali and the ambush in Niger?
Yikes. Don’t even go there.
I’d venture CID turned it over to NCIS to make sure that there are no claims of malicious prosecution. Aka the Army going after Navy out of spite rather than evidence.
Yikes. Don’t even go there.
I’d venture CID turned it over to NCIS to make sure that there are no claims of malicious prosecution. Aka the Army going after Navy out of spite rather than evidence.
I agree with you and I hope they have a Special Agent Gibbs type on the case especially for this.
I once asked a Delta, who is probably in his mid 40's by now what the difference between Seals and Delta's were. He said: "seals get to write books about what they do, Deltas don't!" I asked for him to specify an actual difference, he said "anyone can volunteer and try out for BUDs and be a seal, Delta are hand picked from Rangers/Green Berets by seasoned Deltas, the qualifications are classified". This guys seriously dislikes seals, he thinks most of them are douches who announce there "seal status" every chance they get. He told me Buds training was 6 months followed by 26 week of Seal training, he said Delta training lasted 95 weeks and that's after your 3 week airborne training, 56 week Green Beret training and passed your 6 month Q course and your not even eligible to be Green Beret until you have served a minimum of 3 years. He compared Seals to Eagle Scouts and noted that Deltas have 38 weeks of weapons training compared to the 14 weeks seals have.
If the DEVGRU guys wanted to off someone in Mali there wouldn't be a body. Those guys when stuck in a box somewhere with each other immediately starting sharing training and it sounds like someone choked someone out for too long or the SF guy just didn't recover from the choke out... it happens. Maybe some dumbassery, but probably just a terrible accident.
Does it matter that it was 6 and SF vs three motor pool E3s? No. If guilty, the two SEALs need to be held accountable.
As for DEVGRU, in the early years they did all sorts of illegal things. I know we like to hold them to a different standard but at the end of the day they are all human.
I once asked a Delta, who is probably in his mid 40's by now what the difference between Seals and Delta's were. He said: "seals get to write books about what they do, Deltas don't!" I asked for him to specify an actual difference, he said "anyone can volunteer and try out for BUDs and be a seal, Delta are hand picked from Rangers/Green Berets by seasoned Deltas, the qualifications are classified". This guys seriously dislikes seals, he thinks most of them are douches who announce there "seal status" every chance they get. He told me Buds training was 6 months followed by 26 week of Seal training, he said Delta training lasted 95 weeks and that's after your 3 week airborne training, 56 week Green Beret training and passed your 6 month Q course and your not even eligible to be Green Beret until you have served a minimum of 3 years. He compared Seals to Eagle Scouts and noted that Deltas have 38 weeks of weapons training compared to the 14 weeks seals have.
Some of that may have been true in the past but aside from SEALs being glory hounds and media darlings, most of that is pretty old info. CAG takes all-comers; many have never been SF or Rangers, and some are active duty Navy and Marine Corps.
Does it matter that it was 6 and SF vs three motor pool E3s? No. If guilty, the two SEALs need to be held accountable.
As for DEVGRU, in the early years they did all sorts of illegal things. I know we like to hold them to a different standard but at the day they are all human.
The founder of the unit did some time in the federal prison:
"1990, Marcinko was sentenced to prison for twenty one months and fined $10,000 for his role in a mission that exposed security lapses at sensitive military installations and actually served 15 months of the sentence!
The charge was, “defrauding the government over the price of contractor acquisitions for hand grenades”.
Marcinko maintains that he was singled out for prosecution because of the high level of embarrassment that he caused high ranking Navy officials."
I might leave the <unit> vs <unit> to people that can bring factual information to the discussion. There are both current and former members of those communities on M4C, and none have commented in this thread. That might be a clue. As for the events in Mali, the unique variables involved limit most discussion at this end to only rumor and conjecture. Let's try to keep it as fact-based as possible, and bring the thread back to center, please?
I once asked a Delta, who is probably in his mid 40's by now what the difference between Seals and Delta's were. He said: "seals get to write books about what they do, Deltas don't!" I asked for him to specify an actual difference, he said "anyone can volunteer and try out for BUDs and be a seal, Delta are hand picked from Rangers/Green Berets by seasoned Deltas, the qualifications are classified". This guys seriously dislikes seals, he thinks most of them are douches who announce there "seal status" every chance they get. He told me Buds training was 6 months followed by 26 week of Seal training, he said Delta training lasted 95 weeks and that's after your 3 week airborne training, 56 week Green Beret training and passed your 6 month Q course and your not even eligible to be Green Beret until you have served a minimum of 3 years. He compared Seals to Eagle Scouts and noted that Deltas have 38 weeks of weapons training compared to the 14 weeks seals have.
Literally none of that is accurate.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-31-17, 09:14
I once asked a Delta, who is probably in his mid 40's by now what the difference between Seals and Delta's were. He said: "seals get to write books about what they do, Deltas don't!" I asked for him to specify an actual difference, he said "anyone can volunteer and try out for BUDs and be a seal, Delta are hand picked from Rangers/Green Berets by seasoned Deltas, the qualifications are classified". This guys seriously dislikes seals, he thinks most of them are douches who announce there "seal status" every chance they get. He told me Buds training was 6 months followed by 26 week of Seal training, he said Delta training lasted 95 weeks and that's after your 3 week airborne training, 56 week Green Beret training and passed your 6 month Q course and your not even eligible to be Green Beret until you have served a minimum of 3 years. He compared Seals to Eagle Scouts and noted that Deltas have 38 weeks of weapons training compared to the 14 weeks seals have.
I once asked a Delta, who is probably well into her mid 40’s by now, what the real difference is between a Tri Delt and other sororities. She didn’t say a word, just tore off my pants.
What you wrote is the stupidest thing I’ve read all day. The fact that you actually posted that is all the proof I need to invalidate anything you have ever posted and ever will.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I once asked a Delta, who is probably well into her mid 40’s by now, what the real difference is between a Tri Delt and other sororities. She didn’t say a word, just tore off my pants.
Good grief, don't do that when I am drinking coffee. I'll never get all of that out of the keyboard.
I once asked a Delta, who is probably in his mid 40's by now what the difference between Seals and Delta's were. He said: "seals get to write books about what they do, Deltas don't!" I asked for him to specify an actual difference, he said "anyone can volunteer and try out for BUDs and be a seal, Delta are hand picked from Rangers/Green Berets by seasoned Deltas, the qualifications are classified". This guys seriously dislikes seals, he thinks most of them are douches who announce there "seal status" every chance they get. He told me Buds training was 6 months followed by 26 week of Seal training, he said Delta training lasted 95 weeks and that's after your 3 week airborne training, 56 week Green Beret training and passed your 6 month Q course and your not even eligible to be Green Beret until you have served a minimum of 3 years. He compared Seals to Eagle Scouts and noted that Deltas have 38 weeks of weapons training compared to the 14 weeks seals have.
As others have said, that guys doesn't know what he's talking about.
Use paragraphs bro...
NYH1.
ClearedHot
10-31-17, 11:21
I once asked a Delta, who is probably in his mid 40's by now what the difference between Seals and Delta's were. He said: "seals get to write books about what they do, Deltas don't!" I asked for him to specify an actual difference, he said "anyone can volunteer and try out for BUDs and be a seal, Delta are hand picked from Rangers/Green Berets by seasoned Deltas, the qualifications are classified". This guys seriously dislikes seals, he thinks most of them are douches who announce there "seal status" every chance they get. He told me Buds training was 6 months followed by 26 week of Seal training, he said Delta training lasted 95 weeks and that's after your 3 week airborne training, 56 week Green Beret training and passed your 6 month Q course and your not even eligible to be Green Beret until you have served a minimum of 3 years. He compared Seals to Eagle Scouts and noted that Deltas have 38 weeks of weapons training compared to the 14 weeks seals have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU
SF guy found strangled to death in Mali. Naval CID has brought 2 DEVGRU (ST6) guys back to the states for questioning. Very strange situation. Personal vendetta or were they up to no good and the SF dude found out?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/30/report-two-navy-seals-eyed-in-strangulation-green-beret-in-mali.html
SSG Melgar was killed June 4th. That was nearly five months ago.
From this story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5029941/Two-Navy-SEALs-investigation-Green-Beret-s-death.html
His superiors in Stuttgart, Germany suspected foul play and immediately dispatched an investigating officer to the scene within 24 hours, the Times reported.
No one has been charged in Melgar's death, but two Navy SEALS were placed on administrative leave and flown out of Mali. They have not been publicly identified.
Melgar's death is being investigated by the Navy's Criminal Investigative Service after it was transferred to the agency on September 25 by the Army's Criminal Investigation Division who spent months on the case.
His death was not announced publicly by the Pentagon when he died. The Pentagon is not required to disclose publicly every military fatality that occurs overseas.
1) The Pentagon didn't release any info on his death. Is that unusual, especially considering the nature of his death? Mali borders Niger, was the release of info regarding SSG Melgar's death a result of the Army SF deaths in Niger?
2) Every story I read mentions the SEAL's were flown out and placed on admin leave. None give the time frame they were flown out. Was it next day? That could be construed several ways. In the worst case it could be regarded as an attempt to hamper the investigation. Or, were they flown out several weeks later, after the CID investigators had ample opportunity to question them?
And what does admin leave mean in the military? Are they hanging out at home on out dime?
ETA: I found a Times story which says - The two Navy SEALs were shortly afterwards flown out of Mali and placed on administrative leave.
3) Army CID has apparently turned the case over to NCIS. Why did this occur?
Several stories have indicated the status of the SEAL's has changed - The commandoes were initially described as “witnesses” but later changed to “persons of interest” as the authorities continue to determine the exact degree of participating of the commandos in the homicide, the report said.
At what point during the investigation did this occur - 1) earlier in the CID investigation; 2) just before CID turned it over to NCIS; 3) after NCIS had the case?
To me, there are a lot of things to make you think something is going on under the surface.
SSG Melgar was killed June 4th. That was nearly five months ago.
From this story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5029941/Two-Navy-SEALs-investigation-Green-Beret-s-death.html
His superiors in Stuttgart, Germany suspected foul play and immediately dispatched an investigating officer to the scene within 24 hours, the Times reported.
No one has been charged in Melgar's death, but two Navy SEALS were placed on administrative leave and flown out of Mali. They have not been publicly identified.
Melgar's death is being investigated by the Navy's Criminal Investigative Service after it was transferred to the agency on September 25 by the Army's Criminal Investigation Division who spent months on the case.
His death was not announced publicly by the Pentagon when he died. The Pentagon is not required to disclose publicly every military fatality that occurs overseas.
1) The Pentagon didn't release any info on his death. Is that unusual, especially considering the nature of his death? Mali borders Niger, was the release of info regarding SSG Melgar's death a result of the Army SF deaths in Niger?
2) Every story I read mentions the SEAL's were flown out and placed on admin leave. None give the time frame they were flown out. Was it next day? That could be construed several ways. In the worst case it could be regarded as an attempt to hamper the investigation. Or, were they flown out several weeks later, after the CID investigators had ample opportunity to question them?
And what does admin leave mean in the military? Are they hanging out at home on out dime?
ETA: I found a Times story which says - The two Navy SEALs were shortly afterwards flown out of Mali and placed on administrative leave.
3) Army CID has apparently turned the case over to NCIS. Why did this occur?
Several stories have indicated the status of the SEAL's has changed - The commandoes were initially described as “witnesses” but later changed to “persons of interest” as the authorities continue to determine the exact degree of participating of the commandos in the homicide, the report said.
At what point during the investigation did this occur - 1) earlier in the CID investigation; 2) just before CID turned it over to NCIS; 3) after NCIS had the case?
To me, there are a lot of things to make you think something is going on under the surface.
As far as this happening 5 months ago I don't think I alluded to it being just recently; just that this has gotten out the other day. Yes, something is odd about this.
The "administrative leave" thing I'll chalk up to media either not understanding what was said or the military telling them in terms of what they could understand. Either way it sounds like they were relieved of duty, non-deployable, etc.
The suggestions of a fatal choke-out while horsing around is quite possible I guess. If one guy did it is the other a witness? With these types of HSLD guys training in HTH frequently it can be just that---an accident. Just the whole NCIS taking an interest in both of them makes one raise their eyebrows.
Yeah, the whole thing just doesn't smell right. Of course, it doesn't help that it is getting into the open in bits and pieces, and it'll be a while before the whole story gets out.
I once asked a Delta, who is probably well into her mid 40’s by now, what the real difference is between a Tri Delt and other sororities. She didn’t say a word, just tore off my pants off.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You, sir owe me a new phone. Coffee combined with snot is hard to clean, and REALLY burns on the way out.
Guys please, that is not my point of view-
That's just what he said. I am not friends with this man, he came to Dallas with Allen West for a leadership seminar in 2016 along with other influential people. This conversation started when I told him that I like reading about Seals, Deltas and had met and had 1st edition books signed by Chris Kyle, Keven Lacz, Marcus Luttrell and Matt Bissonnette and he rolled his eyes at me- as did Allen West. This was a John Cornyn (senator) fund raiser and I had to pay 10k to go to this shin dig and really didn't think an eye roll towards me was due without an explanation. Who knows, it could be rivalry, it could be competition it could be just a sour attitude against a different branch.
For what it's worth, everyone with E-5 stripes, a dick, and a pulse gets the email for the Unit's selection briefing when the recruiting team is coming to their duty station.
Also, whoever spoke to you either lied to your face or you misinterpeted what was said. I would request my $10,000 back.
For what it's worth, everyone with E-5 stripes, a dick, and a pulse gets the email for the Unit's selection briefing when the recruiting team is coming to their duty station.
Also, whoever spoke to you either lied to your face or you misinterpeted what was said. I would request my $10,000 back.
Maybe he didn't like the way a spoke highly so about the seals that I had read about.
Friendly advice: Most people dont really want to talk about Navy SEALs or Spec Ops or whatever.
I wouldn't hector a proctologist about how many buttholes he sees in a week so I really wouldnt approach a strange Army guy and ask his thoughts on killing and combat.
Per the OP, none of us were there. None of us are privy to the investigation so jumping to wild conclusions is not good.
No matter what happens, they are likely done being SEALs and a man is dead. I want, personally, to think it was accidental whatever happened.
Innocent until proven guilty.
Rando dudes and Sisters' boyfriends cousins are like total hearsay.
JMO
Coal Dragger
10-31-17, 15:18
Maybe this was a game of “gay chicken” gone horribly horribly wrong.
Before the flaming starts, this is as workable a theory as anything else I’ve read here.
Regardless, we probably won't ever find out what really happened.
I wouldn't assume foul play, accident maybe, negligence maybe, but this happened if a far away country in Africa and no names other than the deceased and Seal Team 6 have been mentioned. And Seal Team 6 is like Darth Vader when it comes to security and secrecy. And I don't see DEVGRU or the Army allowing public access to any of the investigation.
From SOFREP:
Bamako, Mali — On June 4th the body of Green Beret Staff Sgt. Logan J. Melgar was found in U.S. embassy housing Bamako, Mali. The room where Melgar was found resembled that of a bomb going off inside. U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Division (CID) investigators outlined what they felt was a brutal assault that led to Melgar’s violent death by strangulation at the hands of one or two U.S. Navy SEALs assigned to the Joint Special Operations (JSOC), SEAL Team 6 (ST6).
I have also read where they tried to revive him and took him to get medical care. The above seems to contradict that claim, if he was found in the room. Still going with some grappling/sparring of some sort and he got choked out but fatally so, then maybe they were like "Oh shit!" and panicked. Sure it's me speculating but a lot of you (and others) seem to think this the likely cause.
Averageman
11-01-17, 10:40
From the above it would sound like some alcohol and BS wrestling went horribly f'ing wrong.
ramairthree
11-01-17, 11:00
Guys please, that is not my point of view-
That's just what he said. I am not friends with this man, he came to Dallas with Allen West for a leadership seminar in 2016 along with other influential people. This conversation started when I told him that I like reading about Seals, Deltas and had met and had 1st edition books signed by Chris Kyle, Keven Lacz, Marcus Luttrell and Matt Bissonnette and he rolled his eyes at me- as did Allen West. This was a John Cornyn (senator) fund raiser and I had to pay 10k to go to this shin dig and really didn't think an eye roll towards me was due without an explanation. Who knows, it could be rivalry, it could be competition it could be just a sour attitude against a different branch.
He was not rolling his eyes specifically regarding SEALs.
He reflexively did in response to what you told him, and then politely did not explain,
How weird ass gay as shit painful people doing stuff like that sounds.
Since there is no "new" news regarding this mysterious death, instead we have stuff like what certain operator thought of operators from another branch, this thread is done.
SomeOtherGuy
11-13-17, 09:55
Prior thread is closed. This is *new* news, or at least journalism, since it was closed. Evaluate the claims for yourself.
Logan Melgar hadn’t had a drink on June 4.
The Green Beret sergeant’s dry day became a key to unraveling the narrative spun by the elite Navy commandos whom military investigators now suspect killed him, officials familiar with the case said. (much more at link)
https://www.thedailybeast.com/green-beret-discovered-seals-illicit-cash-then-he-was-killed
Averageman
11-13-17, 10:30
I read that somewhere else yesterday.
Just too sad about the whole mess
Prior thread is closed. This is *new* news, or at least journalism, since it was closed. Evaluate the claims for yourself.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/green-beret-discovered-seals-illicit-cash-then-he-was-killed
Tragic all around.
“If you don’t stop this talk of going public on us we’ll kill you!” As one of them has him in a choke hold.
“Oh shit, we killed him. “
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 10:59
For the record, I'm not condoning what happened here.
But honestly, what the hell was this guy thinking? Did he think that they would just let him talk and get them sent to prison? He had to be smarter than that.
I feel like we're missing some details.
WickedWillis
11-13-17, 11:51
For the record, I'm not condoning what happened here.
But honestly, what the hell was this guy thinking? Did he think that they would just let him talk and get them sent to prison? He had to be smarter than that.
I feel like we're missing some details.
Maybe he trusted these guys at some point enough to think they wouldn't be stupid enough to kill him over this?
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 12:18
Maybe he trusted these guys at some point enough to think they wouldn't be stupid enough to kill him over this?
Let's think this through.
We have two DEVGRU guys who worked themselves to the bone for years to get to the very tip of the spear. A position 99.999% of men can only fantasize about.
This Green Beret threatens to take all their hard work away and possibly land them in the brig.
He wasn't killed over money.
IMO this is a case of a new guy (he only graduated Q course last year) trying to do the "right thing" and it backfiring horribly.
Again, not saying they should have killed him or that it's somehow ok. Just calling the situation the way I see it.
SomeOtherGuy
11-13-17, 12:20
For the record, I'm not condoning what happened here.
I feel like we're missing some details.
We don't really know what happened there. I think this article is interesting, and relevant, and it might be mostly true. Or not. If it's even half true, there will eventually be a court martial and maybe the full truth will come out then.
Just like most crime reporting, I am trying to withhold judgment until there is due process, but I'm also interested in the reported allegations since they often, but not always, get proven.
Let's think this through.
We have two DEVGRU guys who worked themselves to the bone for years to get to the very tip of the spear. A position 99.999% of men can only fantasize about.
This Green Beret threatens to take all their hard work away and possibly land them in the brig.
He wasn't killed over money.
IMO this is a case of a new guy (he only graduated Q course last year) trying to do the "right thing" and it backfiring horribly.
Again, not saying they should have killed him or that it's somehow ok. Just calling the situation the way I see it.
If the two guys aren't capable of "not accidentally killing" a fellow serviceman then they should be making big rocks into little rocks and then hung. There is this thing called "command" which exists to resolve these issues so choke holds aren't necessary.
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 13:02
If the two guys aren't capable of "not accidentally killing" a fellow serviceman then they should be making big rocks into little rocks and then hung. There is this thing called "command" which exists to resolve these issues so choke holds aren't necessary.
Short of the Green Beret running straight to higher, I fail to see how command would have had any impact on the situation.
This Green Beret threatens to take all their hard work away and possibly land them in the brig.
Perhaps they should have thought about all that hard work before they started taking money that wasn't theirs to take.
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 15:58
Perhaps they should have thought about all that hard work before they started taking money that wasn't theirs to take.
I'm fully aware that my opinion may be unpopular.
But I honestly don't care that they were taking some off the top. I'd rather them have it than some informant in middle of nowhere Africa.
I also have a very low opinion of people that snitch on victimless crimes just for the sake of "doing the right thing".
Did he deserve to die for it? No. Do the SEALs need to pay for his death? Absolutely.
I'm fully aware that my opinion may be unpopular.
But I honestly don't care that they were taking some off the top. I'd rather them have it than some informant in middle of nowhere Africa.
I also have a very low opinion of people that snitch on victimless crimes just for the sake of "doing the right thing".
Thanks for your candor. But, you are shitting us, right? Just trolling, right?
If, and I say, if, these allegations are true those guys just shit in the face or every person in the same circumstances that did the job right.
You may no think so, but you are not too far from condoning the murder that is alleged.
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 17:31
Thanks for your candor. But, you are shitting us, right? Just trolling, right?
If, and I say, if, these allegations are true those guys just shit in the face or every person in the same circumstances that did the job right.
You may no think so, but you are not too far from condoning the murder that is alleged.
Nope.
I couldn't care less if some guys want to pad their retirement a little bit. Politicians do it every day and on a much greater scale.
And there's nothing I hate more than a snitch. Particularly when they themselves aren't harmed by the action.
Again, that's my opinion. I don't particularly care what your opinion of my opinion is.
Nope.
I couldn't care less if some guys want to pad their retirement a little bit. Politicians do it every day and on a much greater scale.
And there's nothing I hate more than a snitch. Particularly when they themselves aren't harmed by the action.
Again, that's my opinion. I don't particularly care what your opinion of my opinion is.
Stealing is stealing and is wrong anyway you look at it. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that. What is the difference between what they did and a police officer pocketing some dope dealer's earnings when making an arrest? Heck, the money would just go into the city slush fund and essentially disappear. I worked with an officer who was pocketing cash and writing false reports to cover it and ended up doing several years in a federal pen. And he deserved every minute of it. Just my opinion.
militarymoron
11-13-17, 17:52
But I honestly don't care that they were taking some off the top. I'd rather them have it than some informant in middle of nowhere Africa.
I also have a very low opinion of people that snitch on victimless crimes just for the sake of "doing the right thing".
Do you also feel the same about cops skimming drug money, embezzlers, people who take a bit off the top from businesses etc? What about a gun manufacturer that substitutes 6061 for 7075, but doesn't tell the customer? If nothing breaks, no victims. What about people who pose as veterans in uniform to walk in parades to get a moment of admiration? They're not hurting anyone.
I'm fully aware that my opinion may be unpopular.
But I honestly don't care that they were taking some off the top. I'd rather them have it than some informant in middle of nowhere Africa.
I also have a very low opinion of people that snitch on victimless crimes just for the sake of "doing the right thing".
Did he deserve to die for it? No. Do the SEALs need to pay for his death? Absolutely.
So basically what you're saying is that these SEALs - and yourself by your own statement - have no honor, but the Green Beret was wrong for doing the honorable thing by trying to report them. So what do you teach your kids about right and wrong.? It's a sad day when telling the truth is considered lower than honesty and murder.
So basically what you're saying is that these SEALs - and yourself by your own statement - have no honor, but the Green Beret was wrong for doing the honorable thing by trying to report them. So what do you teach your kids about right and wrong. It's a sad day when telling the truth is considered lower than honesty and murder.
Beat me to it. I find it sick that you think that "snitches" that do the honorable are somehow less honorable than thieves.
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 18:39
So basically what you're saying is that these SEALs - and yourself by your own statement - have no honor, but the Green Beret was wrong for doing the honorable thing by trying to report them. So what do you teach your kids about right and wrong.? It's a sad day when telling the truth is considered lower than honesty and murder.
I said several times that they should answer for his murder. That was unequivocally wrong.
I don't care about people stealing from the government. Like, at all. If you consider that to be dishonorable, well that's your opinion.
I teach my son to mind his own business and that you don't get anywhere good by snitching or stabbing people in the back.
There are obviously lines, but in this case I think the guy should have just kept his mouth shut.
Moose-Knuckle
11-13-17, 18:39
And there's nothing I hate more than a snitch.
I hate murders more than I do informants . . . by a long shot.
LMT Shooter
11-13-17, 18:47
Nope.
I couldn't care less if some guys want to pad their retirement a little bit. Politicians do it every day and on a much greater scale.
And there's nothing I hate more than a snitch. Particularly when they themselves aren't harmed by the action.
Again, that's my opinion. I don't particularly care what your opinion of my opinion is.
So do you think the politicians who do it ought to get a pass?
And, we do not know that the deceased was "snitching," and in point of fact, based on what little we know at this point, it is entirely plausible that he had zero intentions of "snitching" and was confronting the alleged thieves (and we do not know that there was any thievery occurring, either) to get them to just stop, without ever making an official allegation. We don't know, and probably will never know all the details.
As far as no one being harmed, if you & I are working together, and I am doing some shady shit, that will reflect upon you in the eyes of most peers, subordinates, superiors, and outsiders. If you know about my shady shit & do not report it, and superiors find out, you are then most likely going to be thought guilty of collusion or conspiracy in the matter when they clean house.
LMT Shooter
11-13-17, 18:52
I don't care about people stealing from the government.
When people steal from the government, they are stealing from the taxpayers. Do you pay taxes? Then people who steal from the government are stealing from you AND ME! I frown upon that, not as much as murder, but I frown upon it.
dwhitehorne
11-13-17, 18:55
I don't understand the money thing. In a former life I handed and distributed money overseas. Lots of of it. It was serialized accounting of bundles by $10,000 and if you broke the seal it was by $100 bill. It was a pain and took hours after a meeting. Everything was double checked and reported on daily. Anything not logged properly would jump out immediately in any audit. The accounting goes way beyond what is permissable to discuss. It is hard to believe people so skilled operating at such a high level could be so stupid. David
When keeping it Pirate goes wrong.....
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 19:01
So do you think the politicians who do it ought to get a pass?
And, we do not know that the deceased was "snitching," and in point of fact, based on what little we know at this point, it is entirely plausible that he had zero intentions of "snitching" and was confronting the alleged thieves (and we do not know that there was any thievery occurring, either) to get them to just stop, without ever making an official allegation. We don't know, and probably will never know all the details.
As far as no one being harmed, if you & I are working together, and I am doing some shady shit, that will reflect upon you in the eyes of most peers, subordinates, superiors, and outsiders. If you know about my shady shit & do not report it, and superiors find out, you are then most likely going to be thought guilty of collusion or conspiracy in the matter when they clean house.
My point is they DO get a pass. And at the end of the day we waste so much money on defense projects and third world countries that whatever they stole probably wouldn't even be noticeable. So I don't care.
Maybe you're right. Maybe they killed him just because they didn't like him. Or maybe he was the one skimming. My opinion on the matter is based only on the facts presented.
Self preservation is a strong motivator, I'll give you that. I've been in that situation. I didn't flip, and I paid the price. But I kept the trust of the guys around me, and that was more important.
LMT Shooter
11-13-17, 19:26
Politicians suck. It's been a LONG time since I truly voted for someone, I always end up voting against the greater evil of whatever sort it is.
The world, to me, is all shades of gray. Right & wrong are abstract ideals that we apply based on our morals. Who among us has never broken a rule, or a law? I put quotation marks around snitch, because I was attacking your use of it regarding Sgt. Melgar, but I too have a bias against it, as I think many do. But it's hard for me to not see through my own bias when someone is trying to do the right thing.
The facts here are few & far between. I no longer believe that those of us who look into situations we were not present for will ever know with 100% certainty what happened, and rarely do we get even close to the truth.
every single politician and most in the pentagon also should be in jail then
give em whatever as long as they get the info and the job done who cares it was budgeted for a certain amount to get the job done if X amount does not reach :) oh well
if they were stealing arms and selling them difference but again money set aside to spend on intel and intel is gotten oh well
is it ethical? that is the issue and where does one draw the line I guess
killing the dude was stupid and they need to pay for that for sure !!!!
ironic they were so so so stupid to lie in a bad way kinda shows even you think is top tier has some stupid parts for sure?
MountainRaven
11-13-17, 20:33
When people steal from the government, they are stealing from the taxpayers. Do you pay taxes? Then people who steal from the government are stealing from you AND ME! I frown upon that, not as much as murder, but I frown upon it.
This.
It's fine if you don't mind having your money stolen, but me? I don't like having my money stolen.
My point is they DO get a pass. And at the end of the day we waste so much money on defense projects and third world countries that whatever they stole probably wouldn't even be noticeable. So I don't care.
Maybe you're right. Maybe they killed him just because they didn't like him. Or maybe he was the one skimming. My opinion on the matter is based only on the facts presented.
Self preservation is a strong motivator, I'll give you that. I've been in that situation. I didn't flip, and I paid the price. But I kept the trust of the guys around me, and that was more important.
Noted: Maintaining the trust of people unworthy of trust is more important than doing the right thing.
In your opinion, anyway.
All I'll say further is you get only one chance to do the right thing and a million opportunities not to.
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 20:42
I think next time I post a controversial opinion I'll include a trigger warning.
Maintaining the trust of people you could go into combat with is of the utmost importance. If they don't trust you then you won't function as a team and you'll get people killed.
"The right thing" is a subjective opinion. My definition is different than yours and that's fine.
Short of the Green Beret running straight to higher, I fail to see how command would have had any impact on the situation.
I haven't been following closely, but if the issue was the Green Beret was going to somehow "out" the two NSW guys, then I'm suggesting "they" should have taken it to higher ups who could then tell the SF guy to STFU about whatever was going on if that is what needed to happen.
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 20:50
I haven't been following closely, but if the issue was the Green Beret was going to somehow "out" the two NSW guys, then I'm suggesting "they" should have taken it to higher ups who could then tell the SF guy to STFU about whatever was going on if that is what needed to happen.
If what they were doing was condoned by their command I doubt they would have killed him over it. We'll probably never really know though.
I think next time I post a controversial opinion I'll include a trigger warning.
Maintaining the trust of people you could go into combat with is of the utmost importance. If they don't trust you then you won't function as a team and you'll get people killed.
"The right thing" is a subjective opinion. My definition is different than yours and that's fine.
That's just it, the SEALs broke the trust first by stealing from the funds they were supposed to be responsible for, and no amount of justification on your or anyone else's part will change that. Bottom line is those two SEAL s were a disgrace to their uniform before they murdered the Sergeant.
I'm fully aware that my opinion may be unpopular.
But I honestly don't care that they were taking some off the top. I'd rather them have it than some informant in middle of nowhere Africa.
I also have a very low opinion of people that snitch on victimless crimes just for the sake of "doing the right thing".
Did he deserve to die for it? No. Do the SEALs need to pay for his death? Absolutely.
I'm kinda there with you on this. They need to be consequenced but I don't think they need to be shitcanned over a money matter. Fined out the wazoo so they remember not to do it again, but I have a LOT of forgiveness when it comes to guys that do this kind of job. Of course killing fellow service members is a completely different issue, and IF done to cover up a money skim then they really need to be made an example of.
Do you also feel the same about cops skimming drug money, embezzlers, people who take a bit off the top from businesses etc? What about a gun manufacturer that substitutes 6061 for 7075, but doesn't tell the customer? If nothing breaks, no victims. What about people who pose as veterans in uniform to walk in parades to get a moment of admiration? They're not hurting anyone.
I wouldn't want to advocate that any of those things are "ok", but if a life time "good guy" cop put drug money in his pocket I'm wouldn't want that to offset everything good he ever did. Again, fines and drive a desk and other similar penalties should apply. They no longer deserve the "same deal" every other honest cop gets. I think a LOT of it should be weighed with length and quality of service and then decided accordingly. I'm a believer in everyone should get a few chances to sort themselves out and a break when warranted, but only up to a point. But they should always be a few steps down the career ladder under people who did it right the first time.
That's just it, the SEALs broke the trust first by stealing from the funds they were supposed to be responsible for, and no amount of justification on your or anyone else's part will change that. Bottom line is those two SEAL s were a disgrace to their uniform before they murdered the Sergeant.
I think the issue is, one failure was redeemable and the other failure was not. If two members of DEVGRU were pocketing funds they were supposed to be protecting I'd have them bleeding out of their ass before the day was done but I don't think I'd shitcan their entire careers. But they'd definitely be at the bottom of that top tier and everyone would know why.
So do you think the politicians who do it ought to get a pass?
Politicians don't put their own ass on the line and go hunting bad guys in indian territory.
militarymoron
11-13-17, 21:02
Self preservation is a strong motivator, I'll give you that. I've been in that situation. I didn't flip, and I paid the price. But I kept the trust of the guys around me, and that was more important.
One time at work, I was working with this other guy and we finished a job early. He said "Hey, if my supervisor asks you if we're done, tell him we're not." (He wanted to leave early but still log a full day's worth of work). I said "I don't plan on talking to him, but if he asks me, I'm not going to lie." I explained "If I lie for you today, how do you know that one day, I'm not going to lie to you for someone else? I'd rather you trust me than like me. You'll always know where I stand." My explanation made sense to him, and he respected that. Over the years, we became good friends. He's brought that event up more than a few times as to why he considers me trustworthy and has valued the friendship more ever since.
I've earned the trust of people I work with by being honest, not lying for them. Once you lie for someone else to cover something up, they've got you. 'They' may not let you out of the big ones when you want out. It's a slippery slope.
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 21:03
That's just it, the SEALs broke the trust first by stealing from the funds they were supposed to be responsible for, and no amount of justification on your or anyone else's part will change that. Bottom line is those two SEAL s were a disgrace to their uniform before they murdered the Sergeant.
Well that's just, like, your opinion man.
Seriously though.
Breaking trust with your guys and breaking trust with the military are two very different things.
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 21:08
I've earned the trust of people I work with by being honest, not lying for them. Once you lie for someone else to cover something up, they've got you. 'They' may not let you out of the big ones when you want out. It's a slippery slope.
I never said anything about lying. I said I didn't dime people out trying to save my own ass. There's a difference.
militarymoron
11-13-17, 21:10
I wouldn't want to advocate that any of those things are "ok", but if a life time "good guy" cop put drug money in his pocket I'm wouldn't want that to offset everything good he ever did. Again, fines and drive a desk and other similar penalties should apply. They no longer deserve the "same deal" every other honest cop gets. I think a LOT of it should be weighed with length and quality of service and then decided accordingly. I'm a believer in everyone should get a few chances to sort themselves out and a break when warranted, but only up to a point. But they should always be a few steps down the career ladder under people who did it right the first time.
I agree with that. Everyone screws up multiple times in their lives, makes mistakes, falls off the wagon etc; and I think that everyone deserves a chance to redeem themselves. But if given that chance, and they choose to continue down the wrong path, then they give up that 'pass' based on the prior good that they have done. I'm not a snitch - but I do talk to people and let them know I'm not comfortable with what their doing, and ask them not to put me in a position where I'm forced to put my own job/career on the line for knowing what I know. I'd rather people set themselves straight, and I always try to help them do that if I can.
I think the issue is, one failure was redeemable and the other failure was not. If two members of DEVGRU were pocketing funds they were supposed to be protecting I'd have them bleeding out of their ass before the day was done but I don't think I'd shitcan their entire careers. But they'd definitely be at the bottom of that top tier and everyone would know why.
We put an extreme amount of trust, and funds into these men. We give them the authority to take lives in our name, and we have a right to hold them to a higher standard because of it. If they break that trust then they should be removed from that position and placed in one where trust is not a factor.
militarymoron
11-13-17, 21:14
I never said anything about lying. I said I didn't dime people out trying to save my own ass. There's a difference.
Okay, I'm tracking now. You were one of the group, not someone uninvolved.
Well that's just, like, your opinion man.
Seriously though.
Breaking trust with your guys and breaking trust with the military are two very different things.
If a man will break trust with one, then it's a matter of time and circumstance before he'll break trust with the other.
Well that's just, like, your opinion man.
Seriously though.
Breaking trust with your guys and breaking trust with the military are two very different things.
Here is the fourth paragraph from the SEAL Code of Honor. Do you think the actions of the two SEALs prior to the murder would have violated the code?
I serve with honor on and off the battlefield. The ability to control my emotions and my actions, regardless of circumstance, sets me apart from other men. Uncompromising integrity is my standard. My character and honor are steadfast. My word is my bond.
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 21:24
Okay, I'm tracking now. You were one of the group, not someone uninvolved.
Not always. One instance comes to mind though.
Long story short, I went on a 96 with a couple guys. They were late picking me up and we got back super late to base. Their leadership didn't notice but mine did.
I kept my mouth shut and took the punishment. Turning on my friends wouldn't have helped anything, but it would have guaranteed that nobody would ever trust me again. I've seen it happen.
Not always. One instance comes to mind though.
Long story short, I went on a 96 with a couple guys. They were late picking me up and we got back super late to base. Their leadership didn't notice but mine did.
I kept my mouth shut and took the punishment. Turning on my friends wouldn't have helped anything, but it would have guaranteed that nobody would ever trust me again. I've seen it happen.
Comparing your experience with what these SEALs did is like comparing apples to oranges. Your friends being late - unless they were late because they were robbing a bank - was not due to a lack of morals on their part.
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 21:33
If a man will break trust with one, then it's a matter of time and circumstance before he'll break trust with the other.
Have you ever served in a combat unit?
I ask because your statement reeks of naivety.
Skimming money that was destined for a scumbag informant and betraying men you consider to be brothers are worlds apart.
Have you ever served in a combat unit?
I ask because your statement reeks of naivety.
Skimming money that was destined for a scumbag informant and betraying men you consider to be brothers are worlds apart.
I served, but all of my service was during peace time. Still doesn't change the fact that stealing money is wrong, and goes against the code of conduct. It's also obviously not a big step from skimming money to murder of your fellow countrymen and brother in arms.
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 21:38
I served, but all of my service was during peace time. Still doesn't change the fact that stealing money is wrong, and goes against the code of conduct.
I don't expect you to understand then.
You have your opinion. I have mine. We aren't going to agree so any further debate on the topic is rather pointless.
If I can’t trust you to handle money honestly, how the hell can I trust you to be behind me in a stack?
Distance, I hate rats more than anyone else, but I sure am glad you weren’t in my platoon.
Let's cut to the chase here. Covering for your buddies running late from libo and covering for your buddies committing felony embezzlement are NOT equivalent activities. One is a matter of trust, the other is accessory to a crime after the fact. Now I've worked both combat .mil and civvy teams. I can tell you for a fact that you commit a crime, I'm going to give you a chance to make things right or I'm going to make it right for you. I'm not breaking your trust, you already broke mine. You lost any right to cast judgement on me when you committed a felony. Team integrity don't mean shit if part of the team is corrupt, because like these two SEAL's (if this investigative theory is proven correct), they'll stab you in the back to save their own skins.
Like it or not, integrity means something. If you don't have it, you don't meet the minimum standards to be on my team, period. Quite frankly? I'm disturbed by the conversation in this thread. Very disturbed. :(
My point is they DO get a pass.
You are not alone in the way you think. Most Liberals have a means by which they excuse certain people in certain circumstances. There is no equality under the law by these standards. It's always a fluid situation based on emotions.
Dist. Expert 26
11-13-17, 23:02
You are not alone in the way you think. Most Liberals have a means by which they excuse certain people in certain circumstances. There is no equality under the law by these standards. It's always a fluid situation based on emotions.
Nice cherry picking.
I said I don't care. I didn't say what they did was fine and dandy.
There has never been, nor will there ever be, equality under human law. To believe otherwise is simply foolish.
Moose-Knuckle
11-14-17, 01:13
Like it or not, integrity means something. If you don't have it, you don't meet the minimum standards to be on my team, period. Quite frankly? I'm disturbed by the conversation in this thread. Very disturbed. :(
This.
We have a murdered SF Soldier and the conversation is about how rats and snitches are the worst thing in the world?! :blink:
Holy ****.
This.
We have a murdered SF Soldier and the conversation is about how rats and snitches are the worst thing in the world?! :blink:
Holy ****.
No shit.
I'm disturbed by the conversation in this thread. Very disturbed. :(
I'm glad that some sensible thoughts finally took over and return this thread from the sewer.
Let's cut to the chase here. Covering for your buddies running late from libo and covering for your buddies committing felony embezzlement are NOT equivalent activities. One is a matter of trust, the other is accessory to a crime after the fact. Now I've worked both combat .mil and civvy teams. I can tell you for a fact that you commit a crime, I'm going to give you a chance to make things right or I'm going to make it right for you. I'm not breaking your trust, you already broke mine. You lost any right to cast judgement on me when you committed a felony. Team integrity don't mean shit if part of the team is corrupt, because like these two SEAL's (if this investigative theory is proven correct), they'll stab you in the back to save their own skins.
Like it or not, integrity means something. If you don't have it, you don't meet the minimum standards to be on my team, period. Quite frankly? I'm disturbed by the conversation in this thread. Very disturbed. :(
This.
We have a murdered SF Soldier and the conversation is about how rats and snitches are the worst thing in the world?! :blink:
Holy ****.
No shit.
I'm glad that some sensible thoughts finally took over and return this thread from the sewer.
Good posts. ;)
NYH1.
Dist. Expert 26
11-14-17, 12:39
Let's cut to the chase here. Covering for your buddies running late from libo and covering for your buddies committing felony embezzlement are NOT equivalent activities. One is a matter of trust, the other is accessory to a crime after the fact. Now I've worked both combat .mil and civvy teams. I can tell you for a fact that you commit a crime, I'm going to give you a chance to make things right or I'm going to make it right for you. I'm not breaking your trust, you already broke mine. You lost any right to cast judgement on me when you committed a felony. Team integrity don't mean shit if part of the team is corrupt, because like these two SEAL's (if this investigative theory is proven correct), they'll stab you in the back to save their own skins.
Like it or not, integrity means something. If you don't have it, you don't meet the minimum standards to be on my team, period. Quite frankly? I'm disturbed by the conversation in this thread. Very disturbed. :(
I said that was one example. More serious situations don't bear discussion on an open forum, nor with people I don't know.
Honestly this moral crusade argument is tiresome. We have different values and different definitions of right and wrong. I knew my opinion wouldn't be shared by many others, and that's fine.
You can express your opinion without attacking others. An adult discussion if you will.
Averageman
11-14-17, 12:54
When faced with a questionable morale choice while in the company of those who are neck deep in a criminal enterprise, it might be best for you to make the choice that allows you to leave the room alive.
The first rule of doing the right thing is living long enough to accomplish your goals and to not leave your Wife a Widow.
I said that was one example. More serious situations don't bear discussion on an open forum, nor with people I don't know.
Honestly this moral crusade argument is tiresome. We have different values and different definitions of right and wrong. I knew my opinion wouldn't be shared by many others, and that's fine.
You can express your opinion without attacking others. An adult discussion if you will.
You opened yourself up here, so calling it an attack when people disagree with your views is disingenuous at best. :rolleyes:
I think one has to take into consideration the fact that these 3 guys weren't "brothers"; only 2 of them were. Yeah, they were on the same team so to speak but they were from different services and different units. The DEVGRU guys were no doubt tight-knit, having similar training, experiences, and acquaintances. The SF dude was, well, Army SF and not in the brotherhood of the other two. Certainly under fire I would expect them all to behave as the tip of the spear types that they were. But we're talking about a behind-the-scenes situation, and one which was (ostensibly) highly illegal. That is where you would see a divide like supposedly happened.
Would the SF guy have ratted on other SF guys doing the same thing? Would the DEVGRU guys have killed another of their mates for wanting to blow the whistle? I think this difference of services/units is where the divide took place (setting the obvious right vs wrong aside).
Dist. Expert 26
11-14-17, 13:17
You opened yourself up here, so calling it an attack when people disagree with your views is disingenuous at best. :rolleyes:
Disagreement is fine. That's not what's happened here so let's stop the charade.
See....I kinda avoided this thread but lemme come to DE 26s advocacy here.
I see where he is coming from. Like at thecend of the day if you are in the shit; you dont want to be stuck as an individual.
And an E6 SEAL makes the same money more or less as an E6 Cook. So, I can sorta understand but I wouldnt do that.
I have known good, solid people who got into being pretty much free range and they got imto the really grey areas of things and ended up in Jail for it.
Good guys, funny folks and all but they got caught because they got to up on themselves. They went all Alonzo Harris.
Were highly skilled BUT.....
In that vein sometimes it seems like you gotta choose between the shady guy getting his hands dirty or the martinet who you see like once in a short while.
It can get complicated. Or seem that way.
All anyone can do is be honest and look after themselves to the extent that if it doesnt concern you then it doesnt concern you. Dont join in, but dont lie if called to the carpet, and dont volunteer.
To that end, however, you cannot excuse murder. Period.
So we are going in a circle. Its easy to be Princess High Ground back on the block but sometimes you gotta say "Hey man, I am not involved"
Eventually the guys trying to pull a Marcinko would have gotten caught anyways so they were screwing themselves anyways and now they have ROYALLY done themselves in.
The problem with every occupation is that they are full of humans.
And we know how humans are
Disagreement is fine. That's not what's happened here so let's stop the charade.
Oh there's no charade here. You know my thoughts on your posts and so does everyone else. If that makes you uncomfortable, tough.
Dist. Expert 26
11-14-17, 13:36
Firefly articulated what I was trying to get across better than I could.
LMT Shooter
11-14-17, 13:50
The point I was trying, perhaps badly, to make, was that it is not right to blame someone who feels compelled, based on their own code or morals, to call others out for their misdeeds, if that is what happened in Mali. Maybe that would not be the choice that some of us might make, but it is not wrong to call foul when appropriate.
Averageman
11-14-17, 14:15
The point I was trying, perhaps badly, to make, was that it is not right to blame someone who feels compelled, based on their own code or morals, to call others out for their misdeeds, if that is what happened in Mali. Maybe that would not be the choice that some of us might make, but it is not wrong to call foul when appropriate.
You might have to admit there had to a better way of doing it than the one chosen.
crusader377
11-14-17, 15:24
Here are my thoughts. If the SEALs did commit the crime that they are accused of then they need to be firmly punished just like any other dirtbag that breaks military law. Murder of fellow servicemen is unacceptable and although in the military it seems like we no longer discipline soldiers (Bergdahl) if the SEALs commit the crime they need long prison sentences or possibly the death penalty.
We put an extreme amount of trust, and funds into these men. We give them the authority to take lives in our name, and we have a right to hold them to a higher standard because of it. If they break that trust then they should be removed from that position and placed in one where trust is not a factor.
And I agree with a LOT of that. But what if somebody is a 20 year, highly decorated and effective individual who routinely put himself into harms way to save others, complete missions and take out bad guys? Does a cash skim completely cancel all of that out? I'm not 100% on that and would want it to be resolved on a case by case basis.
Now killing somebody to cover up your cash skim, that absolutely isn't even a discussion as far as I'm concerned.
And I agree with a LOT of that. But what if somebody is a 20 year, highly decorated and effective individual who routinely put himself into harms way to save others, complete missions and take out bad guys? Does a cash skim completely cancel all of that out? I'm not 100% on that and would want it to be resolved on a case by case basis.
What about all the other guys that 'routinely put himself into harms way to save others, complete missions and take out bad guys' and don't waiver? Do you tell them 'Sorry, rules are for suckers?'
At the present these are allegations, nonetheless, the situational ethics which several of you are advocating is disturbing to say the least.
LMT Shooter
11-14-17, 16:48
You might have to admit there had to a better way of doing it than the one chosen.
Honestly, we know next to nothing about what anybody did here. We don't know that anyone was stealing, we don't know if there was a murder, this truly could all be a horrible accident, or something else that has zero criminal activity on the part of anyone. It could also be a series of criminal events, and maybe time will tell.
Way too early to criticize anyone, especially Sgt. Melgar. This is all speculation as far as I am concerned, YMMV.
Dist. Expert 26
11-14-17, 17:03
What about all the other guys that 'routinely put himself into harms way to save others, complete missions and take out bad guys' and don't waiver? Do you tell them 'Sorry, rules are for suckers?'
At the present these are allegations, nonetheless, the situational ethics which several of you are advocating is disturbing to say the least.
Advocating and understanding are different things. Everyone isn't a boy scout when it comes to following the rules. Particularly when it comes to people living in the shadows for years. And I'm ok with that as long as they accomplish the mission.
To clarify, yet again, killing another service member is by no means permissible. If that turns out to be what happened they will have to answer for it.
What about all the other guys that 'routinely put himself into harms way to save others, complete missions and take out bad guys' and don't waiver? Do you tell them 'Sorry, rules are for suckers?'
At the present these are allegations, nonetheless, the situational ethics which several of you are advocating is disturbing to say the least.
Of course not. I even said they should be fined, dropped to the bottom of the top tier and do most of the heavy lifting. I'm just saying they shouldn't automatically get flushed. And it's hardly a case of "rules are for suckers", when it comes to compensation, benefits and consideration everyone else doing the same quality work but without stepping on their own pee pee will all be at a higher level than the "second chance" squad.
I just know nobody is perfect and if it's a first offense and their "theft of taxpayer dollars" is greatly offset by the level of service and dedication then everything needs to be factored in and decisions made on a case by case basis. If they can make adequate restitution and get their crap together I'd hate to waste an otherwise "good guy." Assuming they are actually a "good guy" except for this incident.
That said, in this specific case, if they in fact killed another service member to cover up their crime, well that is all I really need to know. I don't care if they are the actual guy who shot Bin Laden, you can't really come back from killing somebody to cover up your crimes.
Of course not. I even said they should be fined, dropped to the bottom of the top tier and do most of the heavy lifting. I'm just saying they shouldn't automatically get flushed. And it's hardly a case of "rules are for suckers", when it comes to compensation, benefits and consideration everyone else doing the same quality work but without stepping on their own pee pee will all be at a higher level than the "second chance" squad.
I just know nobody is perfect and if it's a first offense and their "theft of taxpayer dollars" is greatly offset by the level of service and dedication then everything needs to be factored in and decisions made on a case by case basis. If they can make adequate restitution and get their crap together I'd hate to waste an otherwise "good guy." Assuming they are actually a "good guy" except for this incident.
And the moral compass goes round and round, round and round....
Not buying it.
If they were playing funny games with the money they need to pay the piper. That don't mean 'we're sorry we got caught, won't do it again' and drive on.
A lot of people in prison probably wish they had a do over, huh?
We need to remind ourselves that:
He who goes out to fight with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. For when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you. Nietzsche
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