View Full Version : What 5.56 round do you have in your AR15 rifle??
Wolf.545 x .39
10-31-17, 14:12
Doing alot of research and I settled on 2 specific ammunition. Right now I have 5.56 Hornady Tap 2 which are 75 grain. My other load is Federal 556fitb3 or 556bct3 which is the sane exact round. So I have the fragmenting T2 round and the bonded soft points for barrier performance. Anyone think there's better choices out there than these particular 2 loads?? I know the Black Hills 50 grain TSX is another great load but is even more expensive than the 2 kinds of ammo I chose. Just want to know what round is the most devastating according to other AR15 owner s here??-
Run what you're comfortable with.
I have.223 pressure ammo- 64 gr Gold Dot- in three "home/truck" guns that are close at hand if needed.
I use garden variety IMI m193 or CBC's mk262 77 gr 5.56 clone in guns at the ranch.
Wolf.545 x .39
10-31-17, 14:28
Run what you're comfortable with.
I have.223 pressure ammo- 64 gr Gold Dot- in three "home/truck" guns that are close at hand if needed.
I use garden variety IMI m193 or CBC's mk262 77 gr 5.56 clone in guns at the ranch.
The 64 grain Gold Dot may be the round that I will wind up buying the most. Its price is half the cost of Federal T3's.
Not a fan of a round that requires fragmentation to be effective when the potential for a barrier of any type is present. Given the two you have I’d use the Federal hands down.
I have both th Federal Tactical Bonded 62gr (issued) and the Speer 55gr bonded (personal). The Speer is sufficient for now but I will be reevaluating ammo in the spring once my SBR is completed. Hornady TAP 70gr GMX is on my list as is the BH 50gr TSX among a few others.
I’m speaking from a defensive use purpose. Not a hunter at all.
The GDs have proven exceptionally accurate in my guns.
noonesshowmonkey
10-31-17, 14:43
77gr OTM. Going to be getting some 62gr Federal Fusion MSR here in a minute after a buddy showed me the math about em.
Not the 75gr. otm.
Get some thing bonded. If you want 75Gr. get the 75gr. Gold dot bsp round.
Personally I have a lo of federal MSR 62gr. BSP, and some Gold Dot 64gr. What ever flavor is 50cents a round at the time.
The 75gr. Gold dot is what I'd buy more of given the opportunity.
The GMX/TSX rounds are cost prohibitive for the incremental increase in lethality. They leave copper fouling.
77gr. SMK and 75gr. OTM rounds are MATCH rounds. Those bullets are not designed for shooting mammals.
noonesshowmonkey
10-31-17, 14:57
77gr. SMK and 75gr. OTM rounds are MATCH rounds. Those bullets are not designed for shooting mammals.
And yet more than a few two legged mammals have been snatched by both. Same with M193 / M855.
Either the 64gr GD's or the 50gr TSX's. I have a LOT more of the 64gr GD's.
Ditto the Gold Dot 64s ...
Ther are few things that can shrug off 55gr to the torso. I stack that stuff deep, but keep Hornady tap 75gr in my HD mags. 62gr GDSP as backup to that.
Diamondback
10-31-17, 15:09
The other thing worth noting is "long" or "short" barrel use with those loads.
Right now, what I have on hand for function-checking the 10.3 pistol is Remington L223R3V and "hope I don't need it before better arrives." I've been looking at CBC Mk 262 ($580/1000 at AU), but I'm not really sure what works best in a Mk 18 between that, SOST, M855, Federal's FBI load, Gold Dot or Hornady SBR. So many options, so little budget...
Maybe not, but are they any less effective for that purpose?
77gr. SMK and 75gr. OTM rounds are MATCH rounds. Those bullets are not designed for shooting mammals.
Maybe not, but are they any less effective for that purpose?
If you have to shoot them through anything, yes. The issue is of them fragmenting prior to hitting the target, cars windows, walls, brush, all that sort of stuff.
Sure, and I can definitely see how a bonded bullet would outperform given scenarios where barriers need to be considered. Conversely, on soft tissue, are they as effective as OTM, like MK262 Mod1?
If you have to shoot them through anything, yes. The issue is of them fragmenting prior to hitting the target, cars windows, walls, brush, all that sort of stuff.
voiceofreason
10-31-17, 15:50
I'm not a fan of always chasing the latest and greatest round of the year.
Get something that is easy to get and will be around for a long time for your defensive load. The performance differences between the top loads are going to be minimal compared to pulling the trigger again.
FMJ is cheap and not as terminally effective, but you're going to use it for training anyway. May as well have enough to hit up courses anytime AND enough to load up all your mags anytime.
Ultimately, inside of 200 yards FMJ will either tear stuff up pretty good or poke some through and through holes. Either way, keep hitting the target until it's stopped.
I run 64gr GDSP in my defensive carbines
5.56 Bonded SP
10-31-17, 16:23
See my username, I load my own for ~25 cents per round using federal fusion 62gr bonded sp. Can't go wrong with gold dots either if you want factory ammo.
With 5.56 from my testing, soft points need to be bonded or they will not get the type of penetration some consider to be minimum.
I train and blast a lot of m193 type ammo then save the brass for handloads.
You have two good rounds for self defense scenarios. If you are worried about barrier penetration use the bonded bullet. If not, the TAP will work well. Just know your round's limitations.
My duty round is not a barrier blind round. I know if I have to shoot through a windshield or door Im probably going to have to pump multiple rounds to get the desired results. I say probably because actual shootings vary and there is no concrete answer.
I usually keep 2 magazines loaded with my defensive ammo of choice. That should cover anything I need it to, and if it doesn't ill be slinging M193 after that which I know works.
Another for 64 grain Gold Dots. I keep a few mags loaded with the CBC MK262 load too from a few years ago before 50 cent per round PSA free shipping yata yata yata dried up.
I bought enough of the Gold Dots to last me for the foreseeable future since it was 50 cents per round shipped.
sundance435
10-31-17, 18:32
Same for me with Gold Dots, whatever weight I can find for a decent price - it's a PIA to find the good stuff in 5.56 at a reasonable price and .223 GD seems to have good ballistics. All of my guns are 14.5 pinned or 16 - not sure how the 75gr load behaves out of an SBR.
I have adopted IMI mk262. I have no experience with the 77 OTM bullet on flesh. But on paper it performs as advertised.
Gold dot and fusion look to be the best mix of price/performance. Stash some, keep some loaded, practice with a little and forget it. Stash 193 and shoot the crap out of it.
Otms have proven very effective. So have bonded rounds.
Doing alot of research and I settled on 2 specific ammunition. Right now I have 5.56 Hornady Tap 2 which are 75 grain. My other load is Federal 556fitb3 or 556bct3 which is the sane exact round. So I have the fragmenting T2 round and the bonded soft points for barrier performance. Anyone think there's better choices out there than these particular 2 loads?? I know the Black Hills 50 grain TSX is another great load but is even more expensive than the 2 kinds of ammo I chose. Just want to know what round is the most devastating according to other AR15 owner s here??-
What's different about this thread from your last carry ammo thread?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?199191-OTMs-vs-Bonded-SP
64gr Gold Dot. Buy the crap out of it when it's on sale.
Green tip 62 grain 5.56, would really like to try some MK262.
Drifting Fate
10-31-17, 20:46
I don't know if I'm just a cheap bastard or overly optimistic, but M193 - use it for practice and social purposes. I rationalize I won't have to worry about shifts in POI or functioning, but the fact is it's a step up from the handgun I would normally and usually be relying on.
Lots of great choices in this thread, though, certainly can't argue with that.
Wolf.545 x .39
10-31-17, 20:54
What's different about this thread from your last carry ammo thread?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?199191-OTMs-vs-Bonded-SP
Well I'm new to the AR15. I just have an AK74 and 10 months ago got my first AR a Colt LE6920. Just didn't want to buy green tips for self defense. I recently heard about the Speer Gold Dot and they are much cheaper than the soft points that I recently purchased. Maybe I'm gonna buy a thousand rounds of Gold Dots as I don't have superior wealth right now. The Aimpoint Pro is not needed because my Holisun 503C is pretty impressive. I don't hear many guys having problems with that red dot.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-31-17, 21:11
Disclaimer, these are just my opinions and I am not saying this is all 100% fact
Gold dots would be the way to go for your situation in my opinion OP.
Bonded Soft points and Ballistic tips are designed to expand, and if I recall correctly not all OTM ammo is designed to expand. My buddy had a bunch of 75gr Tap, we shot a bunch of varmints with the stuff and didn't notice any expansion; however four legged varmints are much smaller than two legged varmints so take that with a grain of salt.
If you ever get into hand loading your options would be endless. I think for those that don't handload that Gold dots are the best bang for the buck, they generally cost pretty similar to most OTM ammo, but the gold dots will expand very reliably because that is what they are designed to do, and I would trust the soft points to expand more than I would trust OTM rounds to fragment.
At the end of the day, pretty much any bullet flying out of an AR will kill something dead. I wouldn't feel shorthanded with M193, but I like that I have the option to load my personal firearms with whatever I choose. Everyone has their own opinions about what is best, buy what you like/want, and enjoy that nice 6920 :cool:
If you ever do get into handloading, you can make your own Gold dot type clones for ~25 cents per round :cool:
Just my opinions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYZ7sYAD_sM
Gold dot 75 grain is my go to, it's plenty accurate and I took a deer with it last year no problem.
Cheaper but effective rounds I keep the pmc xtac 62 grain. my Rainer arms rifle it is scary accurate for some reason....
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Leonidas24
10-31-17, 21:21
See my username, I load my own for ~25 cents per round using federal fusion 62gr bonded sp. Can't go wrong with gold dots either if you want factory ammo.
With 5.56 from my testing, soft points need to be bonded or they will not get the type of penetration some consider to be minimum.
I train and blast a lot of m193 type ammo then save the brass for handloads.
This. Although I don't recommend everyone handload their own defensive ammo; it's quite time consuming if you aren't already invested in it. Like the user I quoted, I'm running 62 gr GDSP loaded over 25.8gr TAC with a CCI #41 primer in once fired Speer nickel brass. With 25.8 gr TAC I'm getting around 2925 fps out of a 14.5" bbl. It's close to the same specs as what Speer offered years ago before they discontinued their 5.56NATO loaded cartridges.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-31-17, 21:28
This. Although I don't recommend everyone handload their own defensive ammo; it's quite time consuming if you aren't already invested in it. Like the user I quoted, I'm running 62 gr GDSP loaded over 25.8gr TAC with a CCI #41 primer in once fired Speer nickel brass. With 25.8 gr TAC I'm getting around 2925 fps out of a 14.5" bbl. It's close to the same specs as what Speer offered years ago before they discontinued their 5.56NATO loaded cartridges.
LOL
Your load is nearly Identical to what I am settled on right now :)
I found the bullets in bulk and the seller didn't say what brand they are, but I am pretty sure they are federal fusions, there was no published data so I had to figure out my own load from scratch.
Federal fusion 62gr bonded soft points, and I am going back and forth from 25.7 -26gr of Tac with CCI 450 primers. I am probably going to settle on 25.7 as that gave me the best groups ( 1-1.5'' ), and with bonded soft points a little bit of velocity really doesn't make much of a difference. But nice to hear your Chrono results, I didn't think this load was cookin that hot!
Our loads are basically the same thing lol.
ETA: Thanks for sharing!
Leonidas24
10-31-17, 21:36
LOL
Your load is nearly Identical to what I am settled on right now :)
I found the bullets in bulk and the seller didn't say what brand they are, but I am pretty sure they are federal fusions, there was no published data so I had to figure out my own load from scratch.
Federal fusion 62gr bonded soft points, and I am going back and forth from 25.7 -26gr of Tac with CCI 450 primers. I am probably going to settle on 25.7 as that gave me the best groups ( 1-1.5'' ), and with bonded soft points a little bit of velocity really doesn't make much of a difference. But nice to hear your Chrono results, I didn't think this load was cookin that hot!
Our loads are basically the same thing lol.
ETA: Thanks for sharing!
Great minds and all that. I posted a thread on this quite a while back and found 26gr to be shite on the accuracy side; downloading .2gr sucked groups back into the 1.5-1.75" territory and have been pleasurable to shoot since. Regarding whether they're fusions or GDSP I don't think there's any real difference between them other than the hardness of the lead alloy core. IIRC GDSP has a higher antimony content and is thus harder -- don't quote me on that.
What have you gotten as far as ES on your velocity? I tested CCI 450's (easier to get locally) before settling on #41s, because I was getting wild shifts in velocity out of my 10rd groups.
Wolf.545 x .39
10-31-17, 21:39
Disclaimer, these are just my opinions and I am not saying this is all 100% fact
Gold dots would be the way to go for your situation in my opinion OP.
Bonded Soft points and Ballistic tips are designed to expand, and if I recall correctly not all OTM ammo is designed to expand. My buddy had a bunch of 75gr Tap, we shot a bunch of varmints with the stuff and didn't notice any expansion; however four legged varmints are much smaller than two legged varmints so take that with a grain of salt.
If you ever get into hand loading your options would be endless. I think for those that don't handload that Gold dots are the best bang for the buck, they generally cost pretty similar to most OTM ammo, but the gold dots will expand very reliably because that is what they are designed to do, and I would trust the soft points to expand more than I would trust OTM rounds to fragment.
At the end of the day, pretty much any bullet flying out of an AR will kill something dead. I wouldn't feel shorthanded with M193, but I like that I have the option to load my personal firearms with whatever I choose. Everyone has their own opinions about what is best, buy what you like/want, and enjoy that nice 6920 :cool:
If you ever do get into handloading, you can make your own Gold dot type clones for ~25 cents per round :cool:
Just my opinions.
Yeah Gold Dots seem to be a really good deal. The TBBC soft points from Federal are double the price of the Gold Dots and they can't be twice as good performance wise.
5.56 Bonded SP
10-31-17, 21:55
Great minds and all that. I posted a thread on this quite a while back and found 26gr to be shite on the accuracy side; downloading .2gr sucked groups back into the 1.5-1.75" territory and have been pleasurable to shoot since. Regarding whether they're fusions or GDSP I don't think there's any real difference between them other than the hardness of the lead alloy core. IIRC GDSP has a higher antimony content and is thus harder -- don't quote me on that.
What have you gotten as far as ES on your velocity? I tested CCI 450's (easier to get locally) before settling on #41s, because I was getting wild shifts in velocity out of my 10rd groups.
I don't have a chrono so honestly, you quoting that velocity gave me the the first real world numbers to what my load is probably running. I find my pet loads by shooting a bunch of 5 or ten round groups, I make sure to do multiple so I get a good idea of what the load is really doing. I need to get a chrono though.
I also noticed a shift in accuracy from 25.7-26gr, but I wasn't sure if it was just the guns I was using or if it was the load. Sounds like backing off .2-.3 grains from 26gr is the way to go. I appreciate your input.
I tested the 62gr fusions by shooting a bunch of lined up water jugs, deep penetration, perfect star shaped expansion, and retained weight exceptionally well.
I buy all my primers and powder locally because the hazmat fee off sets the saving making it basically equal for me, and locally I haven't seen any #41 primers. I have been happy with the 450's, and I have thousands.. But I will have to give the #41's a try if I can find some. I like to test things before buying a ton in bulk. Interesting the #41's gave you more consistent velocity.
I also shot and loaded a bunch of Nosler Bonded Performance 64gr bullets, they also performed well from my tests, however they don't expand in a star, but a mushroom shape. I bought about 500 of the noslers because I found a sale, but they generally cost 2x as much as the federal bullets, so I bought a ton of the federals. I also like how the federals have a smaller tip, which I assume gives better aerodynamics and long range accuracy vs the giant point of the noslers.
Reference for the nosler bonded performance https://www.nosler.com/bonded-solid-base-bullet/
I have been very happy with both of these bullets, much more so from any others I tested. I tested various Soft Points that were not bonded, and noticed they penetrate very poorly, and perform similar or identical to varmint bullets. I shot a rabbit with a 65gr sierra game king, and the rabbit actually exploded. When I tested the game king against water jugs, it performed just like varmint bullets only penetrating one one-gallon water jug, and filling the second water jug with fragments. The sierra game kings also gave me poor accuracy, and cost 2x as much as the bonded bullets I have been using.
How much did you pay for the 62gr gold dot bullets?
I got the federal fusions for ~13 cents a piece :cool: maybe we will have to PM each other some sources lol
Hornady TAP 8126N 75gr OTM. I may reevaluate ammo later, as the 8126N is sometimes more difficult to find.
Edited to fix typo 75gr, not 77
5.56 Bonded SP
10-31-17, 22:12
Yeah Gold Dots seem to be a really good deal. The TBBC soft points from Federal are double the price of the Gold Dots and they can't be twice as good performance wise.
I think if they are about the same weight, and proven to be good properly bonded bullets. I would just buy whichever you can find cheaper. I have seen a ton of good sales for the gold dots.
Here are some gold dots for 52cents per round.
https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/collections/ammunition/products/223-rem-64gr-speer-duty-rifle-gold-dot-soft-point-500rds-24448?variant=35962566605
for defense, I am using BH 77gr loads which are very accurate and function well. For targets and hunting, I am using Sierra 77gr hand loads. For plinking -- m193 lake city. My carbine and SPR both seem to really like the heavier bullets.
I keep several 30 RD Mags loaded with 5.56 M193 Federal, Hornandy 5.56 75gr TAP, and .223 TAP 55 gr loads. Seperate loads by mag type/ color.
I have no issue utilizing 5.56 Ball ammo 55 or 62 grain, but will use better loads if available.
I agree with the others in that shot placement is more critical than the loading.
Green tip 62 grain 5.56.
Same in mine for now, would like to experiment with some other ammo
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indianalex01
10-31-17, 23:57
MK318 SOST and Gold Dot 62gn Softies. Used in 10.5, 11.5, 14.5 and 16 inch barreled Colt's and Sig's
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-31-17, 23:59
At work, I use the issued Winchester Ranger. At home, whatever was at the top of the ammo crate.
indianalex01
11-01-17, 00:03
Nothing wrong with FMJ rounds. They hit hard.
TactiCool1976
11-01-17, 00:55
right now, i have PMC X Tac 55gr and 62gr green tip, and some PPU m193 55gr
For HD, I'm using 75gr. Gold Dot.
Not the 75gr. otm.
Get some thing bonded. If you want 75Gr. get the 75gr. Gold dot bsp round.
Personally I have a lo of federal MSR 62gr. BSP, and some Gold Dot 64gr. What ever flavor is 50cents a round at the time.
The 75gr. Gold dot is what I'd buy more of given the opportunity.
The GMX/TSX rounds are cost prohibitive for the incremental increase in lethality. They leave copper fouling.
77gr. SMK and 75gr. OTM rounds are MATCH rounds. Those bullets are not designed for shooting mammals.
Being a gilding metal (the G in GMX) the GMX should not leave nearly as much copper fouling as the TSX.
Mk 262 for sure. A couple of clips of 62 gr Gold Dot are around for those vehicle shoot outs that happen from time to time.
gunnerblue
11-01-17, 10:27
62 grain Gold Dots in most of my rifles for home or work (though actually a .223-pressure round). MK262 for my precision gun. I practice and compete with a 5.56-pressure 55 grain handload.
Wolf.545 x .39
11-01-17, 12:09
Mk 262 for sure. A couple of clips of 62 gr Gold Dot are around for those vehicle shoot outs that happen from time to time.
Everybody has differing opinions. I agree soft points are gonna be more consistent especially with barriers. SOF claimed that the Hornady Tap 2 was the most lethal round. I know its someone else's opinion but I bought 200 Tap 2 rounds. I also bought 100 rounds of Federal TBBC. I think my remaining ammo that I buy will be 50 cents a piece or cheaper.
Wolf.545 x .39
11-01-17, 12:13
62 grain Gold Dots in most of my rifles for home or work (though actually a .223-pressure round). MK262 for my precision gun. I practice and compete with a 5.56-pressure 55 grain handload.
I get confused. I thought that the Gold Dots were 64 grain. I got into the 5.56 platform when I moved to a liberal inner city in PA. .308 would be insane to use in these impoverished neighborhoods. So I got anything in .308 stashed away from where I live.
Everybody has differing opinions. I agree soft points are gonna be more consistent especially with barriers. SOF claimed that the Hornady Tap 2 was the most lethal round. I know its someone else's opinion but I bought 200 Tap 2 rounds. I also bought 100 rounds of Federal TBBC. I think my remaining ammo that I buy will be 50 cents a piece or cheaper.
Yep. TAP or MK262 are both crazy good choices. Bonded is for punching auto glass, etc.
I get confused. I thought that the Gold Dots were 64 grain.
You're correct.
indianalex01
11-01-17, 15:19
64gn Gold Dot has
Wolf.545 x .39
11-01-17, 15:33
64gn Gold Dot has been discontinued. It is now 62gn. As well as 55 and 75. No more 64. Fusion uses the same exact bullet as Gold Dot 62. Also Federal SP1 223 ice contract load is Gold Dot 62. I work at Federal so if anybody has any questions on Federal ammunition, I can try to answer and if I don't know then I will find out.
Only soft points I have are the Federal T3's. I only got a hundred. Its a buck a piece, $100 for 100 rounds and thats the cheapest I've seen it on Bone Frog. Maybe I buy a few hundred more, then buy mostly Gold Dots. I'm already well below the poverty line so cost is important. In the suburbs of PA. not much happens but the 3 or 4 big cities are really bad. I'm living in one of them now. About 5 years ago on a roof I almost got a burgular. A drug dealer. Luckily my German Shepard saw him and the burgular ran away. At the time I only had my Glock 22 on me. I'm on disability right now for chronic pain.
indianalex01
11-01-17, 15:50
you brother.
Wolf.545 x .39
11-01-17, 15:56
T3 is the best bonded bullet made. More law enforcement agencies choose it over all others. It's tough. Deep penetration and holds together through glass and still expands great. You chose well. I shoot that too. The reason I choose SOST and Gold Dot 62 is because they both hold a very similar zero in my weapons. T3 is actually the better round. That said, I don't think anyone hit with notice the difference out of the 3. Wolf5.45x39 I hope things get better for you. Prayers out to you brother.
Yeah if I had to go outside with my rifle I would want the T3's because a lot of vehicle's in the inner city. For the home I have Tap 2. IMO I think the Tap 2 is better with unobstructed shots. I don't know if it gets better for me. Chronic pain patients are being treated like hard core felons. Its hard to believe not being treated fairly. Thanks for the prayers.
Nothing wrong with FMJ rounds. They hit hard.
What does that mean?
Being a gilding metal (the G in GMX) the GMX should not leave nearly as much copper fouling as the TSX.
I've found copper fouling to a non-issue with the Barnes. I suppose someone might, but I think we'd be waaaay down in the weeds. Or experiencing bore and load intersection of some sort.
Everybody has differing opinions.
Yup, but don't confuse that with everybody having an informed, experienced opinion worth considering.
I agree soft points are gonna be more consistent especially with barriers.
Saying "soft point" isn't much more specific than saying "bullet." Which softpoint? There's an awful lot of difference between them.
SOF claimed that the Hornady Tap 2 was the most lethal round.
You've mentioned this several times now. What SOF? In what report? In what testing protocol? What does "most lethal" mean? Cite?
I get confused. I thought that the Gold Dots were 64 grain.
For everyone else, when considering the 62 and 64 GDSP. Here's a 5rd group of 62gr 24445SP at 100yds, and a recovered 64gr that deeply penetrated a 4-legged.
4835548356
indianalex01
11-01-17, 19:59
. Thanks
M193 - generic all purpose
FGGM - accuracy
HogHammer or other Barnes - hunting
MisterHelix
11-01-17, 22:35
Lately I'm inclined to just feed all my rifles the same general purpose handload (62bthp@2750ish). I have the 64 gold dots in my bedside rifle, but the POI is different from my practice ammo, and it irritates me more than it should. I simply can't afford to shoot gold dots every day.
The chances of me (rural dwelling, non-LE, civilian) needing a bonded barrier blind projectile...probably not that great.
indianalex01
11-02-17, 03:06
Another great round is Gold Dot 75gn. Especially in short barrels
Diamondback
11-02-17, 08:03
Alex and any of our other Ammo Gurus, what would you consider your "Top Three" in performance, and same in Bang-For-Buck, for each of the following scenarios in Home D/PDW roles?
--16"+ Rifle, Barrier
--16"+ Rifle, General Purpose
--SBR/"megapistol" (10-15.9"), Barrier
--SBR/"megapistol," GP
--Shorty SBR/Pistol (<10"), Barrier
--Shorty SBR/Pistol (<10"), GP
Bang for the buck for two-legged foe? 75gr OTM Prvi Partisan. Just my opinion.
A former M4C SME did testing with this round and found it to perform excellent.
Alex and any of our other Ammo Gurus, what would you consider your "Top Three" in performance, and same in Bang-For-Buck, for each of the following scenarios in Home D/PDW roles?
--16"+ Rifle, Barrier
--16"+ Rifle, General Purpose
--SBR/"megapistol" (10-15.9"), Barrier
--SBR/"megapistol," GP
--Shorty SBR/Pistol (<10"), Barrier
--Shorty SBR/Pistol (<10"), GP
Bang for the buck for two-legged foe? 75gr OTM Prvi Partisan. Just my opinion.
A former M4C SME did testing with this round and found it to perform excellent.
Unless things have changed, PRVI's 75 is a hollow point bullet, not an OTM. It does expand like a hollow point, which is better than FMJ... but the bullet didn't fragment like a 75-77 gr OTM.
indianalex01
11-02-17, 10:08
Alex and any of our other Ammo Gurus, what would you consider your "Top Three" in performance, and same in Bang-For-Buck, for each of the following scenarios in Home D/PDW roles?
--16"+ Rifle, Barrier
--16"+ Rifle, General Purpose
--SBR/"megapistol" (10-15.9"), Barrier
--SBR/"megapistol," GP
--Shorty SBR/Pistol (<10"), Barrier
--Shorty SBR/Pistol (<10"), GP
Band for the buck and three rounds that will be your go to round where price is a concern.. Gold Dot in any weight. Fusion in 62gn. MK18 SOST. These give you barrier blind performance ad thill be devestaing. I tend to use 62gn Gold Dots and SOST because they give me very close zeros. I think Gold Dot 75 is best out of Shorties.
I'm less inclined to worry about barrier as a civilian. Home defense is my most likely use of my AR. So I like the fragmentation of an OTM over barrier performance.
I was not aware of any changes to the bullet design. I know the box has always described the bullet as "HP BT", but the experts (certainly, not me) have asserted that it is actually an OTM design. I truly would like to know if this is not the case, and when that change occurred.
For reference: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?65896-Prvi-Partizan-75gr-BTHP-Match
A video for those who hate to read:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfTqOXCCyXs
Unless things have changed, PRVI's 75 is a hollow point bullet, not an OTM. It does expand like a hollow point, which is better than FMJ... but the bullet didn't fragment like a 75-77 gr OTM.
Band for the buck and three rounds that will be your go to round where price is a concern.. Gold Dot in any weight. Fusion in 62gn. MK18 SOST. These give you barrier blind performance ad thill be devestaing. I tend to use 62gn Gold Dots and SOST because they give me very close zeros. I think Gold Dot 75 is best out of Shorties.
Those are my favs, SOST > GD (but either is good by me). I say SOST > GD simply because it's loaded to 5.56 pressures, but the GD is nothing to sneeze at.
I was not aware of any changes to the bullet design. I know the box has always described the bullet as "HP BT", but the experts (certainly, not me) have asserted that it is actually an OTM design. I truly would like to know if this is not the case, and when that change occurred.
Not sure. I'll have to watch the video later. I had pics of the bullets I'd tested, but they were on photobucket.
The video spoke of comparable ballistic performance to 77 SMK and 75 Hornady. I'm not implying that the guy who produced the video is a bonafide expert, but the material I wanted to reference was scrubbed from this forum some time back due to irreconcilable differences in opinion over a certain AAR (hint hint). So, in addition to the old M4C thread I've referenced, it's all I got on this round. Any info you many have on this would be most helpful.
Not sure. I'll have to watch the video later. I had pics of the bullets I'd tested, but they were on photobucket.
May be a totally different bullet. My tests were just water jug stuff. And the bullet was good enough that I loaded 500 rounds in a can for stash ammo. Maybe I can pull a pic of of that annoying photobucket site later tonight too.
Just watched the video. Yeah... that's the same bullet I shot. Difference being that he had a 16" barrel and much more velocity. I shot mine out of an 11.5, but got the same Hollow point-esque expansion. Whereas the OTMs and TMKs frag like Bombs. The PRVI bullet works pretty good, just differently than an OTM.
The new Hornady 73 gr. Critical Defense load seems very appealing as a SD round out of an SBR... I'll be picking some up to test as soon as I come across it in stock locally.
Thanks for the update. It's good to know.
Just watched the video. Yeah... that's the same bullet I shot. Difference being that he had a 16" barrel and much more velocity. I shot mine out of an 11.5, but got the same Hollow point-esque expansion. Whereas the OTMs and TMKs frag like Bombs. The PRVI bullet works pretty good, just differently than an OTM.
Sure, and I can definitely see how a bonded bullet would outperform given scenarios where barriers need to be considered. Conversely, on soft tissue, are they as effective as OTM, like MK262 Mod1?
I would think since the manufacturers of these rounds market the match rounds for match and the bonded soft point for hunting that they think SP are better on flesh. I'm sure if they thought the open tip ammo was good hunting ammo they would market it as such.
The soft point expands and stays together. This allows damage from expansion and a through and trough as well.
The TSX and GMX rounds only expand as well. In most testing I have read "retained weight" is considered to be positive attribute of a recovered round. What if you match round fragments when it hits a arm or fat and never hits anything vital with enough weight and inertia to do damage?
I personally have the PPU 75 grain in my HD mags. I had to order the stuff as I can’t find anything locally. It’s cheaper as well so that was an easy decision from me.
Does Palmetto still have great sales in the Gold Dots every once in a while? If so I would pick some up while they are having that promotion going on.
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OTM's have been tested extensively in the lab and used in actual combat. Accuracy and explosive fragmentation with very acceptable penetration seem to be the norm. If there is data to refute this, I would be most interested to see it.
The problem (if I have one) of bonded bullets is over-penetration. I'd like to know more about how they can dump most/all of their energy into a human threat without much risk of collateral damage.
What if you match round fragments when it hits a arm or fat and never hits anything vital with enough weight and inertia to do damage?
And that's a good point you've made. Hunting. Are you hunting relatively fragile humans or much tougher (skin and bone) deer, elk, and bear? There's a difference. Are these animals behind auto glass? Maybe some. I'll give you that.
Now let's talk about MK262. A cartridge loaded to military specs with a match bullet. Now if that ain't creative marketing, I don't know what is! ;)
I would think since the manufacturers of these rounds market the match rounds for match and the bonded soft point for hunting that they think SP are better on flesh. I'm sure if they thought the open tip ammo was good hunting ammo they would market it as such.
The soft point expands and stays together. This allows damage from expansion and a through and trough as well.
indianalex01
11-02-17, 15:45
Energy dump is such an over hyped myth. You want damage. Permanent and deep penetration. Bonded soft paints give you that. 15-20 generally speaking (Gold Dot) from my experience. OTM rounds are great to but are reliant on fragmentation. Over penetration of a bonded soft point isn't bad. Most of its power is gone by the time it gets through. Bigger problem is missed shots. OTM's are great as well but I would personally choose bonded softy. Better through barriers, expands faster, better through car doors (excluding SOST). OTM and Softies are both amazing. A bad guy or animal isn't going to be saying "I'm glad he hit with with an OTM instead of a soft point". Lol. A great round is the Mk318 SOST because it frags and has the bottom solid copper for penetration. It opens up just as fast as a soft point. Amazing round.
5.56 Bonded SP
11-02-17, 15:45
Different bullet styles do different things better. There is no one size fits all.
5.56 Bonded SP
11-02-17, 15:49
64gn Gold Dot has
edit nevermind, question answered.
indianalex01
11-02-17, 15:52
Agreed If I could only have 1 round I would take MK318 SOST barrier blind OTM. Honorable mentions... 75GD, 62GD, 77 OTM, T3. All will be very close
Barnes 70 gr TSX LE 5.56. I also load a clone of it for hunting. For target shooting and training, I buy bulk factory seconds of 77 gr SMKs.
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Another thing to mention is what JSOC uses. They use 'brown tip' ammo which is a 70gr. TSX with the tipped painted brown for identification. It does not fragment. It does expand. These guys can have anything and pick this.
indianalex01
11-02-17, 17:42
Another thing to mention is what JSOC uses. They use 'brown tip' ammo which is a 70gr. TSX with the tipped painted brown for identification. It does not fragment. It does expand. These guys can have anything and pick this.
Not a good barrier round. They don't use it in significant numbers.
Why are we worried about barriers? Are we talking societal break down? I don't shoot through walls in my house. I'm not on patrol making vehicle stops. Am I missing something?
I've shot a bunch of the defensive stuff in my tinkering around. The bondeds are nice, but the OTMs are the last bullet I want to get shot with, by FAR! They work fantastic in short guns too.
Why are we worried about barriers? Are we talking societal break down? I don't shoot through walls in my house. I'm not on patrol making vehicle stops. Am I missing something?
.
That is the key statement. Never confuse offensive vs defensive engagement. We are all talking about self defense of ourselves and loved ones. Pick the best bullet for soft tissue damage while engaging unauthorized break ins. For me that is 77 OTM.
indianalex01
11-02-17, 18:24
I might have shoot through barriers. You never know. Bad guys aren't going to jump out and say shoot me. It's my choice. They are both good. I shoot both. I prep for any scenario. Obviously you do not expect a scenario where a bonded bullet is needed. Must be the Marine in me.
5.56 Bonded SP
11-02-17, 18:56
Worth note
Ballistic gel minimum penetration requirements has nothing to do with barriers. Most of the ammo that I tested which is not bonded failed to give proper penetration. I've also seen OTM rounds fail to fragment/expand in critters while hunting. Not all OTM ammo is designed to expand.
Less penetration might be good for some applications like apartment building and such, I can understand these varying trains of thoughts. Like I said, different bullet styles do different things better. There is no one size fits all. I don't believe there is one bullet style chambered in 223 that is the best for all applications, jack of all trades master of none or whatever. I think one of the best options for a wide variety of different situations is bonded softpoints, but that is just my opinion.
Diamondback
11-02-17, 18:58
Three words: "Vehicle-Borne Daeshbag." You might find yourself needing to shoot a Vehicle Based Mass Killer like that idjit in New York... better to deal with him while he's relatively penned up in the driver's seat than dismounted and mobile to engage with his own weaponry.
Re 5.56 Bonded SP's point about no "jack of all trades," my thinking on my rifle since it has a mag-carrier in the stock was to have the mag in the well and the one on the front-end carrier loaded with "Regular Duty" and then a mag full of heavier-duty penetrators in the rear carrier.
indianalex01
11-02-17, 19:10
Good last few posts. This whole thread is good.
Hillbillyhero
11-02-17, 19:11
Whatever's on sale...lol
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Hornady 60 GR TAP Urban....not by choice though
Wolf.545 x .39
11-03-17, 01:23
Hand rolled 77gr TMK’s
TMK's look almost exactly the same as Hornady Tao 2 in ballistic gel. They both fragmented at around 1.5 inches and then they had a grenade effect if one believes in ballistic gel being close to shooting a two legged person. I think there so close as a round I would just buy the cheaper round of the 2. The TMK's are more expensive that Hornady Tap 2.
Hornady 60 GR TAP Urban....not by choice though
I seen someone shoot these through a car door. Went through and fragmented on the other side. It will work well, its just some guys want to get the most devastating round. Well that 60 grain is impressive. You should not feel under gunned with it.3
I seen someone shoot these through a car door. Went through and fragmented on the other side. It will work well, its just some guys want to get the most devastating round. Well that 60 grain is impressive. You should not feel under gunned with it.3
Good to know, I really appreciate it. Last guy to get dropped with it had delicious backstraps, I mean...alllegedly. Thank God no 2 legged animals to date.
vicious_cb
11-03-17, 01:37
TMK's look almost exactly the same as Hornady Tao 2 in ballistic gel. They both fragmented at around 1.5 inches and then they had a grenade effect if one believes in ballistic gel being close to shooting a two legged person. I think there so close as a round I would just buy the cheaper round of the 2. The TMK's are more expensive that Hornady Tap 2.
Not sure what tests you are referencing but TMK has a far shorter neck than TAP T2 in every test I've seen with real ballistics gel not cleargel.
Fusion MSR due to best combo of price, availability, and gelatin/deer/hog performance. You can buy it wherever Bubba and Jimbo shop. The all copper bullets appeal to me greatly, but supply is inconsistent and they are costly. I also have a pile of mags loaded with 855.
A question: I see a lot of people like the Gold Dot branded version. The bullet seems the same, but the velocities are slightly different in Molon’s testing. Is there a flash difference?
Three words: "Vehicle-Borne Daeshbag." You might find yourself needing to shoot a Vehicle Based Mass Killer like that idjit in New York... better to deal with him while he's relatively penned up in the driver's seat than dismounted and mobile to engage with his own weaponry.
Absolutely... In patrol rifle, bonded is probably optimal. But for Home D? It's exceedingly unlikely I'd have to shoot into a vehicle. I do keep a spare mag of Gold Dot in my truck. I don't bash the bonded style bullets. I just feel the Mk 262 is the better house round.
Absolutely... In patrol rifle, bonded is probably optimal. But for Home D? It's exceedingly unlikely I'd have to shoot into a vehicle. I do keep a spare mag of Gold Dot in my truck. I don't bash the bonded style bullets. I just feel the Mk 262 is the better house round.Which factory load of mk262 do you like best?
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Some of this thread has drifted into pure fantasyland. I totally get the prepared / be ready for anything mindset, but I think in a lot of ways we are splitting hairs with what is "best". I do like the "whatever is on sale" comment. I think that truthful comment probably knocked some dicks in the dirt.
Besides, the topic is what YOU (the reader/poster) has loaded in your AR. Funny how it always turns into a pissing contest.
Fusion MSR due to best combo of price, availability, and gelatin/deer/hog performance. You can buy it wherever Bubba and Jimbo shop.
Well said, and it's just an extremely consistent and excellent performing round in general. Very accurate, very low SD.
Which factory load of mk262 do you like best?
I either load my own (Mexican Match style) or run Black Hills Factory New. I have both in my various ARs.
I do like the "whatever is on sale" comment. I think that truthful comment probably knocked some dicks in the dirt.
Sale ammo is fine as long as you buy a bunch of the same stuff and know your zero. 50 of this, and 50 of that can give you POI problems.
Besides, the topic is what YOU (the reader/poster) has loaded in your AR. Funny how it always turns into a pissing contest.
I don't see anyone pissing. Just good exchanges of opinions.
I either load my own (Mexican Match style) or run Black Hills Factory New. I have both in my various ARs.I knew you reloaded so I figured I would specify.
Have you ever shot a dear with mk262?
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Which factory load of mk262 do you like best?
Is there more than one?
Is there more than one?Well, there are some clones like imi razorcore.
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Have you ever shot a dear with mk262?
I've never shot a deer at all. And I don't think you can hunt deer in AZ with 22 cal. OTM would not be my pic if I were hunting deer.
I've never shot a deer at all. And I don't think you can hunt deer in AZ with 22 cal. OTM would not be my pic if I were hunting deer.Just curious. My 75 grain gold dot did just fine last year.
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indianalex01
11-03-17, 15:29
Absolutely... In patrol rifle, bonded is probably optimal. But for Home D? It's exceedingly unlikely I'd have to shoot into a vehicle. I do keep a spare mag of Gold Dot in my truck. I don't bash the bonded style bullets. I just feel the Mk 262 is the better house round.
The key is use what you feel confident with. They are all great.
I've never shot a deer at all. And I don't think you can hunt deer in AZ with 22 cal. OTM would not be my pic if I were hunting deer.
It is perfectly legal to hunt deer with a .223 in Arizona, and I have humanely taken deer with OTMs due to the circumstances of a particular hunt. However, their explosive nature tends to ruin an excessive amount of meat compared to bonded and copper solid bullets. The violent fragmentation of an OTM does the trick nicely on thin skinned critters, especially if you're not particularly intent on eating it. I'm sure the same would apply to the two-legged variety of varmints in a defensive shooting as well.
It is perfectly legal to hunt deer with a .223 in Arizona,
Is it? I don't hunt deer, but I grew up here under that impression. I think Pappabear thought it was prohibited too.
Yeah... an OTM would suck if you were after the meat.
Home rolled 69gr tmk. That's about all I shoot anymore. I've killed fox, coyotes, hog, and deer with them. A light animal looks like it was hit with a fast vmax from an '06. We usually shoot deer and hogs in the head but running animals hit in the chest cavity, the organs are usually jellied. They have a harder time penetrating a hogs shoulder but inside 100 yards it still slows or stops them for a solid follow up. I've never retrieved anything more than fragments from an animal. With the performance I've seen on tougher animals than humans, I'm sure it would do the job for hd. Regular 69gr smk's do work also and are cheaper.
Jwknutson17
11-10-17, 19:19
Everything gets Mk262's for me. If I ever ran out, which I won't, I would be just fine rolling with M193.
Everything gets Mk262's for me. If I ever ran out, which I won't, I would be just fine rolling with M193.
CBC/Magtech 556C shoots smooth for 55¢/round.
Sancho Panza
11-11-17, 11:22
Federal Fusion 62 grain spitzer boat tail:
48571
indianalex01
11-11-17, 15:02
Federal Fusion 62 grain spitzer boat tail:
48571
Arguably the best all around round made. Great through glass, expands fast and great penetration. Holds together well. Great through short barrels and expand at very low velocities. Tough to beat this round.
I run standard, Federal M855, 62 grain green tip. My AR is not my primary HD rifle as I keep a GI M1 Carbine for that role, loaded with soft points. If I need to get out the AR things have gone horribly wrong.
I run standard, Federal M855, 62 grain green tip. My AR is not my primary HD rifle as I keep a GI M1 Carbine for that role, loaded with soft points. If I need to get out the AR things have gone horribly wrong.
Why the M1 Carbine? Why not start prepared for when things have "gone horribly wrong"?
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indianalex01
11-11-17, 15:35
I run standard, Federal M855, 62 grain green tip. My AR is not my primary HD rifle as I keep a GI M1 Carbine for that role, loaded with soft points. If I need to get out the AR things have gone horribly wrong.
Myself, I will bring out the best I've got. Anytime you have to pull out a weapon for self-defense, things of gone horribly wrong so I don't get what you're saying here. Weird
What does an M1 carbine do for me then AR15 won't? I don't even see the logic. If that's all you have then yes the M1 carbine is a great weapon but it does nothing that the AR15 can do.
I couldn't even imagine the mindset of "I am going to use my hi-point carbine unless things go horribly wrong. In that case I will pull out my M4"
Wolf.545 x .39
11-11-17, 16:13
Arguably the best all around round made. Great through glass, expands fast and great penetration. Holds together well. Great through short barrels and expand at very low velocities. Tough to beat this round.
Yeah a lot of good rounds in 5.56. Fusion is ammo I would buy.
Myself, I will bring out the best I've got. Anytime you have to pull out a weapon for self-defense, things of gone horribly wrong so I don't get what you're saying here. Weird
What does an M1 carbine do for me then AR15 won't? I don't even see the logic. If that's all you have then yes the M1 carbine is a great weapon but it does nothing that the AR15 can do.
I couldn't even imagine the mindset of "I am going to use my hi-point carbine unless things go horribly wrong. In that case I will pull out my M4"
A lot of people underestimate the M1 carbine. Not me with jsp bullets!
indianalex01
11-11-17, 16:25
A lot of people underestimate the M1 carbine. Not me with jsp bullets!
Who does? Very good gun but not even in the same League as an AR15. Are you actually trying to compare the 2? If that's all you have then it is good but it's a laughable comparison. In fact stupid. So let's get back on track.
One more addition. 30 Carbine balistically isn't even close to the 5.56mm. At 100 yards the 30 carbine has 600 foot pounds of energy left. A 5.56mm has about 1,000. 30 carbine is pretty much a pistol bullet. It doesn't compare to a rifle bullet.
1_click_off
11-12-17, 13:46
223 Rem - 55 Grain Ted Nugent SCHP - Pierce Munitions Barnes TSX
Works well on 4 legged creatures. Think it has been discontinued though. I have a 100-200 rounds left.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171112/7c196bc6396990ca57c2de1c3bb70167.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171112/f40cbffe5fd00a4cde457d4b7021858c.jpg
Dead right there, 70 gr TSX
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Buzzkill: At the end of the day, a lot of this is just academic with the differences down in the weeds. Small deforming projectiles delivered at high velocities will all do some destructive things. Time spent on what's best...for what, when, and from what...is usually better spent taking whatever ammo you have and practicing its delivery. An X grain magic bullet isn't of any use if you suck.
While that may be true, I've seen perfect shots with sub-par bullets or the wrong bullet for the job fail.
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indianalex01
11-12-17, 17:26
While that may be true, I've seen perfect shots with sub-par bullets or the wrong bullet for the job fail.
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I agree. TAP and other ballistic tip type rounds have failed miserably in Law Enforcement shootings due to lack of penetration and or through glass or doors. Bullet choice can make the difference. I also agree that you better be good at shooting the rounds or it doesn't matter which round you have.
LE criteria is different in this respect, barriers are a factor in their selection process. If you know your ammo, you should know both its' capabilities and limitations. For barrier without barrier blind in the rifle, switch to sidearm.
Manuever and shoot them in the face. Thousands of savages have been tamed with green tip.
I agree 100% with ST911. I would never feel inadequate with a mag of 55gr, I'm the limiting factor in the equation.
I'll take M193. It ain't perfect, but it works.
LOL
Your load is nearly Identical to what I am settled on right now :)
I found the bullets in bulk and the seller didn't say what brand they are, but I am pretty sure they are federal fusions, there was no published data so I had to figure out my own load from scratch.
Federal fusion 62gr bonded soft points, and I am going back and forth from 25.7 -26gr of Tac with CCI 450 primers. I am probably going to settle on 25.7 as that gave me the best groups ( 1-1.5'' ), and with bonded soft points a little bit of velocity really doesn't make much of a difference. But nice to hear your Chrono results, I didn't think this load was cookin that hot!
Our loads are basically the same thing lol.
ETA: Thanks for sharing!
I just looked at my load data. I use the 62gr and 64gr Federal fusion and Gold Dots that have been pulled for my hunting rounds. I settled on 25.0 gr of TAC for these with mixed brass and CCI #41 primers. I tried 25.5 grs and 26.0 grs but my groups started opening up and at the higher velocity I started having jacket separation on the bonded bullets.
I like TAC, BL-C(2) and CFE 223 for these bullets.
5.56 Bonded SP
11-13-17, 15:17
Dead right there, 70 gr TSX
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Awesome!
Beautiful harvest man. Thank you for sharing. Looks like that TSX worked pretty darn well.
I dig that AR too, 1x4 scopes are all I rock now a days. Is that a 16'' barrel?
I just looked at my load data. I use the 62gr and 64gr Federal fusion and Gold Dots that have been pulled for my hunting rounds. I settled on 25.0 gr of TAC for these with mixed brass and CCI #41 primers. I tried 25.5 grs and 26.0 grs but my groups started opening up and at the higher velocity I started having jacket separation on the bonded bullets.
I like TAC, BL-C(2) and CFE 223 for these bullets.
Interesting.
I tested the federal fusion with 26gr of tac into some water jugs, very deep penetration and no jacket separation at all.
I tried cfe 223, but didn't like it because it increased carbon fouling compared to other powders. It did leave no copper, but the powder residue/carbon fouling was so excessive I got very turned off from it.
Awesome!
Beautiful harvest man. Thank you for sharing. Looks like that TSX worked pretty darn well.
I dig that AR too, 1x4 scopes are all I rock now a days. Is that a 16'' barrel?
Thanks, it's a 1-6x and a 14.5" barrel. It's taken its share of whitetail. I have a TSX load that half a dozen guys hunt with and everybody has had great success with it.
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A lot of people underestimate the M1 carbine...
Amen. I'm a fan.
My first long gun was an IBM M1 Carbine that I bought in college during the AWB. For years and years it was my "go-to" gun for everything. I didn't "upgrade" to an AR until 10 years ago.
Who does? Very good gun but not even in the same League as an AR15... .30 Carbine balistically isn't even close to the 5.56mm. At 100 yards the 30 carbine has 600 foot pounds of energy left. A 5.56mm has about 1,000.
The AR wins, but they ARE in the same league.
Nevermind at 100yds... that's not home defense, unless your home is a helluva lot bigger than mine.
At the muzzle .30 Carbine is almost 1,000 ft-lbs. 55gr or 62gr bullets out of a 14.5" AR barrel are making 1,150 ft-lbs or so. That's 15% more, but it's not out of the .30 Carbine's league.
Side note: subsonic 300Blackout is 500ft-lbs or so. or so, so half of .30 Carbine's energy.
OK, sorry for the sidetrack...
Wolf.545 x .39
11-14-17, 23:36
Amen. I'm a fan.
My first long gun was an IBM M1 Carbine that I bought in college during the AWB. For years and years it was my "go-to" gun for everything. I didn't "upgrade" to an AR until 10 years ago.
The AR wins, but they ARE in the same league.
Nevermind at 100yds... that's not home defense, unless your home is a helluva lot bigger than mine.
At the muzzle .30 Carbine is almost 1,000 ft-lbs. 55gr or 62gr bullets out of a 14.5" AR barrel are making 1,150 ft-lbs or so. That's 15% more, but it's not out of the .30 Carbine's league.
Side note: subsonic 300Blackout is 500ft-lbs or so. or so, so half of .30 Carbine's energy.
OK, sorry for the sidetrack...
I agree with you and don't even own an M1 carbine. They are very light which makes for a great home defense gun. I like Hornady Tap 2 in my home defense AR with a 2nd mag if Federal T3's if barriers come into play. Tap 2 should be enough for the home though. The .30 carbine jsp expands very well and you cannot compare it with the ammo used in the Korean war.
indianalex01
11-15-17, 01:12
Amen. I'm a fan.
My first long gun was an IBM M1 Carbine that I bought in college during the AWB. For years and years it was my "go-to" gun for everything. I didn't "upgrade" to an AR until 10 years ago.
The AR wins, but they ARE in the same league.
Nevermind at 100yds... that's not home defense, unless your home is a helluva lot bigger than mine.
At the muzzle .30 Carbine is almost 1,000 ft-lbs. 55gr or 62gr bullets out of a 14.5" AR barrel are making 1,150 ft-lbs or so. That's 15% more, but it's not out of the .30 Carbine's league.
Side note: subsonic 300Blackout is 500ft-lbs or so. or so, so half of .30 Carbine's energy.
OK, sorry for the sidetrack...
Not a sidetrack. That was a good post. Count the barrel as 16 inch and not a 14.5. Much gained there. M1 carbine is very cool but AR beats it in every facet and bad in some areas. I have heard nobody underrate the M1. It's a pistol caliber carbine for the most part and a darn good one but not close to a 16-20 inch AR.
Amen. I'm a fan.
My first long gun was an IBM M1 Carbine that I bought in college during the AWB. For years and years it was my "go-to" gun for everything. I didn't "upgrade" to an AR until 10 years ago.
The AR wins, but they ARE in the same league.
Nevermind at 100yds... that's not home defense, unless your home is a helluva lot bigger than mine.
At the muzzle .30 Carbine is almost 1,000 ft-lbs. 55gr or 62gr bullets out of a 14.5" AR barrel are making 1,150 ft-lbs or so. That's 15% more, but it's not out of the .30 Carbine's league.
Side note: subsonic 300Blackout is 500ft-lbs or so. or so, so half of .30 Carbine's energy.
OK, sorry for the sidetrack...
I think when one says they aren't in the same league let's look at some things:
Capacity, reliable and affordable 30 round magazines.
Modularity. How easy is it to mount a RDS, modern sling, and light to an AR vs an M1 Carbine? What about changing sights?
Parts availability/logistics. Where can you get everything to completely keep the gun running? Compare the AR to the M1 Carbine. How many are manufacturing replacement parts?
Ammo selection is limitless for the AR but what about the M1?
This isn't a knock at the little M1. It's a great gun, ahead of its time. But there is a significant difference between the two where they aren't in the same league these days.
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I've only shot the M1 once or twice. It would be a much better pick than a pistol or bird gun. But if you chose it over an M4, I'd have to disagree for the exact points made by ghostly.
indianalex01
11-19-17, 02:00
48733
I shot this 7 point today in Wisc. 40 yard Shot today 5.56mm MK318 MOD O SOST round. Ran 20 yards. Devastating internal damage. Through the heart and exit wound. MCX Vertus pistol 11.5 barrel
Wolf.545 x .39
11-19-17, 09:54
48733
I shot this 7 point today in Wisc. 40 yard Shot today 5.56mm MK318 MOD O SOST round. Ran 20 yards. Devastating internal damage. Through the heart and exit wound. MCX Vertus pistol 11.5 barrel
I never went hunting. Not against it. I just buy it in the store. That 318 round I have not considered. Only soft point ammo I have is Federal T3's. I'm gonna buy 200 more of those rounds before buying gold dots and m193 for target practice.
I've never shot a deer at all. And I don't think you can hunt deer in AZ with 22 cal. OTM would not be my pic if I were hunting deer.
I think you can with good results but the fragments is something I wouldn't want if I hunted. It ruins the meat and harvested metal parts is not something wished for when eaten. I'm not an expert of course on this subject.
indianalex01
11-19-17, 16:31
I never went hunting. Not against it. I just buy it in the store. That 318 round I have not considered. Only soft point ammo I have is Federal T3's. I'm gonna buy 200 more of those rounds before buying gold dots and m193 for target practice.
The SOST round is pretty equalivant to most Soft Points out there as far as damage goes.
I think you can with good results but the fragments is something I wouldn't want if I hunted. It ruins the meat and harvested metal parts is not something wished for when eaten. I'm not an expert of course on this subject.
Amazingly, I didn't find any fragments in the deer when I dressed him out. It was through and through shot. Massive trauma to the vitals.
Wolf.545 x .39
11-19-17, 18:35
Amazingly, I didn't find any fragments in the deer when I dressed him out. It was through and through shot. Massive trauma to the vitals.
Interesting as the 318 round fragments. Maybe I'm wrong on that. I have Hornady Tap 2 which may have a thinner jacket. I guess your round tumbled when it passed through the deer to cause that damage. Who knows someday I may go hunting. I know a lot of guys tend to go with bullets that hold together for hunting. I personally believe that a fragmenting around as long as its a 75 or 77 grain projectile creates a more devastating wound in humans. I got my guns for self defense against criminals. I know deer have thicker skin and are considered bigger than humans. If course it depends in the size if the deer.
indianalex01
11-19-17, 20:53
Interesting as the 318 round fragments. Maybe I'm wrong on that. I have Hornady Tap 2 which may have a thinner jacket. I guess your round tumbled when it passed through the deer to cause that damage. Who knows someday I may go hunting. I know a lot of guys tend to go with bullets that hold together for hunting. I personally believe that a fragmenting around as long as its a 75 or 77 grain projectile creates a more devastating wound in humans. I got my guns for self defense against criminals. I know deer have thicker skin and are considered bigger than humans. If course it depends in the size if the deer.
Yes it is supposed to fragment. It may have but when I dressed him out I found none. I don't think it tumbled. That's not how the SOST round works. I don't think there is a definitive best round or best weight of bullet with 223/5.56. There are many great rounds that are all good SOST, Gold Dot 55 62 75, T3, TSX, 77 OTM etc. I use GD 62 77 and Mk318 SOST. I also have T3. All very good. The Deer I shot would have went down just as well with any of the top loads. I am not a fan of Hornady TAP loads due to poor penetration and terrible through glass and doors. That's just me. I have seen police shooting reports and TAP hasn't done great. Many LE depts have moved away from TAP.
Wolf.545 x .39
11-19-17, 21:16
Yes it is supposed to fragment. It may have but when I dressed him out I found none. I don't think it tumbled. That's not how the SOST round works. I don't think there is a definitive best round or best weight of bullet with 223/5.56. There are many great rounds that are all good SOST, Gold Dot 55 62 75, T3, TSX, 77 OTM etc. I use GD 62 77 and Mk318 SOST. I also have T3. All very good. The Deer I shot would have went down just as well with any of the top loads. I am not a fan of Hornady TAP loads due to poor penetration and terrible through glass and doors. That's just me. I have seen police shooting reports and TAP hasn't done great. Many LE depts have moved away from TAP.
I agree with you that there's not one superior load. I only would use Hornady Tap 2 for home defense where barriers aren't as important. Shooting through walls might be irresponsible. It depends on how many bad guys are in the house. Outside I like loads that can get through a windshield. One never knows the obstacle's that are gonna be present at any given time. I may start buying speer gold dots because óf there good reputation and lower cost. I have a AK74 and that round tumble's like mad. Hard to compare to premium 5.56 ammo. Both do their job very well.
I might be too nit-picky here but... Tactical Application Police (TAP) is a product line. Not all TAP rounds are designed to fragment. Only one (8126N) of Hornady's 5.56 TAP product line are designed to fragment.
If, "many LE depts have moved away from TAP" (It would be great if you could provide a source for this information), suffice to say the cause would be more towards the trend of barrier blind ammunition than any deficiency in the 8126N. Pick the right tool for the job.
Wolf.545 x .39
11-20-17, 04:59
I might be too nit-picky here but... Tactical Application Police (TAP) is a product line. Not all TAP rounds are designed to fragment. Only one (8126N) of Hornady's 5.56 TAP product line are designed to fragment.
If, "many LE depts have moved away from TAP" (It would be great if you could provide a source for this information), suffice to say the cause would be more towards the trend of barrier blind ammunition than any deficiency in the 8126N. Pick the right tool for the job.
The Hornady Tap GMX penetrates through barriers more than any other round I seen tested through windshields. I'm not sure if any other round penetrates further. Expansion wasn't as good as . T3's.
My house mags are loaded with Winchester 64gr PowerPoints
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Wolf.545 x .39
11-20-17, 08:36
My house mags are loaded with Winchester 64gr PowerPoints
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After reading through this thread I may change over to soft points. What I don't know is at close range say 5 to 15 yards will soft points expand immediately on impact or after a few inches of going into the target?
They take a few inches to get started. I'm sure you could look for gel test videos on youtube.
indianalex01
11-20-17, 09:13
I might be too nit-picky here but... Tactical Application Police (TAP) is a product line. Not all TAP rounds are designed to fragment. Only one (8126N) of Hornady's 5.56 TAP product line are designed to fragment.
If, "many LE depts have moved away from TAP" (It would be great if you could provide a source for this information), suffice to say the cause would be more towards the trend of barrier blind ammunition than any deficiency in the 8126N. Pick the right tool for the job.
I can't quote the sources do to where I work. You say to choose the right round for the job. It's hard to carry that many different rounds. I just stick with one round at during a carry sequence. I feel that sost, and gold dot cover me for any situation. Your miles may very. I was speak about TAP1. I think it's a very poor round. No penetration. It doesn't hit the 11-12 depth.
After reading through this thread I may change over to soft points. What I don't know is at close range say 5 to 15 yards will soft points expand immediately on impact or after a few inches of going into the target?
Youtube gelatin testing, such as “Chopping Block” tends to show cavity necks (the unexpanded part) to be 0.25” - 1” with most soft points, including the cheapo steel cased stuff. This is about as good as it gets for rapid expansion. The non-bonded soft points of both US and foreign manufacture tend to retain less weight and penetrate from 10” - 12”, which is sub-optimal. Bonded soft points, such as Gold Dot and Fusion, go deeper and still have the short necks that indicate rapid expansion.
I haven't tested the 64gr PP in gelatin but I do use it for hunting and it's proven very effective in my real world test on living flesh.
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indianalex01
11-20-17, 11:56
Youtube gelatin testing, such as “Chopping Block” tends to show cavity necks (the unexpanded part) to be 0.25” - 1” with most soft points, including the cheapo steel cased stuff. This is about as good as it gets for rapid expansion. The non-bonded soft points of both US and foreign manufacture tend to retain less weight and penetrate from 10” - 12”, which is sub-optimal. Bonded soft points, such as Gold Dot and Fusion, go deeper and still have the short necks that indicate rapid expansion..
Good post. SOST round opens up fast like a bonded softie. Watch a gel test on MK318 Mod O SOST
5.56 Bonded SP
11-20-17, 20:01
After reading through this thread I may change over to soft points. What I don't know is at close range say 5 to 15 yards will soft points expand immediately on impact or after a few inches of going into the target?
If the soft points are not bonded, you will not get very deep penetration with 223/5.56 caliber bullets.
From my testing, bonded bullets penetrated twice as far as non bonded. I've shot varmints with non bonded soft points, and the non bonded softpoints act like varmint bullets, violently and rapidly expanding, literally blowing up varmints. As well, all the non bonded bullets I recovered from testing had core from jacket separation.
Example.
Sierra gameking 65gr ( non bonded soft point ). Penetrated through drywall, penetrated 1 water jug, then stopped in 2nd water jug. Core from jacket separation, didn't retain much weight.
Nosler ballistic tip 60gr ( varmint bullet ) , exact same performance as above, but even less retained weight.
Nosler bonded performance 64gr soft point. Penetrated dry wall, penetrated 4 water jugs, stopped in 5th water jug. Retained nearly all it's weight, no jacket separation.
I've tested many bonded, and non bonded bullets. The results were all nearly identical with 223/5.56 caliber bullets.
Most bonded soft points will start to expand anywhere from half an inch- 2 inches depending on the media it is penetrating from my experience.
At the end of the day, I wouldn't worry too much about bullet selection. You should focus more on training, because pretty much any bullet flying out of an AR15 will kill something dead with a good shot.
I've also watched a deer survive a gut shot with a 30-06, so in my opinion shot placement is more important than the latest wiz bang bullet.
indianalex01
11-20-17, 22:37
If the soft points are not bonded, you will not get very deep penetration with 223/5.56 caliber bullets.
From my testing, bonded bullets penetrated twice as far as non bonded. I've shot varmints with non bonded soft points, and the non bonded softpoints act like varmint bullets, violently and rapidly expanding, literally blowing up varmints. As well, all the non bonded bullets I recovered from testing had core from jacket separation.
Example.
Sierra gameking 65gr ( non bonded soft point ). Penetrated through drywall, penetrated 1 water jug, then stopped in 2nd water jug. Core from jacket separation, didn't retain much weight.
Nosler ballistic tip 60gr ( varmint bullet ) , exact same performance as above, but even less retained weight.
Nosler bonded performance 64gr soft point. Penetrated dry wall, penetrated 4 water jugs, stopped in 5th water jug. Retained nearly all it's weight, no jacket separation.
I've tested many bonded, and non bonded bullets. The results were all nearly identical with 223/5.56 caliber bullets.
Most bonded soft points will start to expand anywhere from half an inch- 2 inches depending on the media it is penetrating from my experience.
At the end of the day, I wouldn't worry too much about bullet selection. You should focus more on training, because pretty much any bullet flying out of an AR15 will kill something dead with a good shot.
I've also watched a deer survive a gut shot with a 30-06, so in my opinion shot placement is more important than the latest wiz bang bullet.
Bonded softpoints expand within an inch. The more velocity the more violent the expansion. Gold Dots expand down to 1700 FPS or even lower. They are amazing. Most modern softpoints do real good with short barrels. I have taken a deer with 62GN GD with a 10.5 inch LMT AR. As you know I just took a deer with a MK318 SOST OTM. Both where devastating.
Nosler ballistic tips are only good for varmints. Expand and frag to fast with very little penetration (same problem TAP has) Sierra Game King in 55gn is used by many LE agencies on lower west coast and warmer areas. They frag but give adequate penetration for law-enforcement use. It's a really good loud but I would still rather have a bonded soft point or a SOST round.
If the soft points are not bonded, you will not get very deep penetration with 223/5.56 caliber bullets.
That would need to be quantified, and there's more discussion to be had about particular bullets. For example, Hornady's 60 JSP and 60 Nosler Partition will run deep. Construction, velocity, barriers, all matter. Bonded is just one variable.
At the end of the day, I wouldn't worry too much about bullet selection.
I'd say give it diligence, but don't get lost in the weeds.
indianalex01
11-20-17, 22:46
That would need to be quantified, and there's more discussion to be had about particular bullets. For example, Hornady's 60 JSP and 60 Nosler Partition will run deep. Construction, velocity, barriers, all matter. Bonded is just one variable.
I'd say give it diligence, but don't get lost in the weeds.
Good post. Any of the top bullets with do fine. You tube has many good gel test vids on most of the good bullets. Stay away from varmint bullets for home defense. To many great rounds out there.
Nosler ballistic tips are only good for varmints. Expand and frag to fast with very little penetration (same problem TAP has) Sierra Game King in 55gn is used by many LE agencies on lower west coast and warmer areas. They frag but give adequate penetration for law-enforcement use. It's a really good loud but I would still rather have a bonded soft point or a SOST round.
Again, pardon the interruption. You continue to lump the entire TAP product line together making you factually wrong. I count a total of eleven TAP part numbers between .223 and 5.56. GMX is part of the TAP product line, doesn't fragment and there's no shortage of penetration with that TAP round. Hornady says that TAP round, "Turns cover into concealment". Part number 8126N, also part of the TAP product line, is designed to upset and fragment and acts similarly to the SOST.
I do not equate gelatin testing to terminal performance but in Hornady's own testing, the 8126N penetrates 10.5", upsets within an inch and retains half it's weight when shot into bare gel. That's pretty good performance. The 8126N and a couple other fragmenting rounds have served people well over the years, it's just that this type of bullet has been eclipsed by the bonded, or barrier blind rounds of new.
I'm not defending or advocating either, it's just the lumping together of the entire TAP product line gets my OCD worked up a little. No biggie. Have a good day. Carry on.
indianalex01
11-21-17, 06:32
Again, pardon the interruption. You continue to lump the entire TAP product line together making you factually wrong. I count a total of eleven TAP part numbers between .223 and 5.56. GMX is part of the TAP product line, doesn't fragment and there's no shortage of penetration with that TAP round. Hornady says that TAP round, "Turns cover into concealment". Part number 8126N, also part of the TAP product line, is designed to upset and fragment and acts similarly to the SOST.
I do not equate gelatin testing to terminal performance but in Hornady's own testing, the 8126N penetrates 10.5", upsets within an inch and retains half it's weight when shot into bare gel. That's pretty good performance. The 8126N and a couple other fragmenting rounds have served people well over the years, it's just that this type of bullet has been eclipsed by the bonded, or barrier blind rounds of new.
I'm not defending or advocating either, it's just the lumping together of the entire TAP product line gets my OCD worked up a little. No biggie. Have a good day. Carry on.
TAP 8126N Doesn't do what SOST does. SOST will give double the penetration and is a hotter loaded round.
Mk318 SOSTis as good as anything. See it against humans in Iraq and deer. A good gell test can tell you a lot.
Wolf.545 x .39
11-21-17, 08:40
TAP 8126N Doesn't do what SOST does. SOST will give double the penetration and is a hotter loaded round.
Mk318 SOSTis as good as anything. See it against humans in Iraq and deer. A good gell test can tell you a lot.
I see Hornady Tap .223 60 grain fragment and go through a car door. I always though that the lethality of the 5.56 was based on fragmentation rather than if the round tumbled. Maybe if I hit a perp in a sift area the Tap 2 would perform very good. It is not a vmax round though many have that Hirnady Vmax round in their home defense AR15. Tap 2 has about 13 inches through ballistic gel and it fragments violently. I agree through a windshield or outside I'd want my T3's or Speer gold dots. For home defense all these rounds should incapacitate and kill the bad buy. I haven't decided on what is gonna be NY surplus round for back up. Either speer gold dots or Federal Fusion. I have an AK74 and 2,500 rounds if 7N6. This round tumbled like mad. Is it more lethal than 5.56 T3's or Speer gold dots or federal fusion I don't know but for a full metal jacket round its better than green tips and xm193 in 5.56. Also the rifle stays cleaner. I don't like the ballistics if the AJ74 as it goes straight through. I know everyone is pro M4 here and I am to but some days cleaning a dirty rifle becomes a pain in the ass. I like both rifle's equally. Don't get MAD that I think the AK74 is every bit as good as a Colt LE6920 because I love both rifle's very much. I jystvthingvthe 5.45 x .39 round dies more damage. Peace!
indianalex01
11-21-17, 10:18
I see Hornady Tap .223 60 grain fragment and go through a car door. I always though that the lethality of the 5.56 was based on fragmentation rather than if the round tumbled. Maybe if I hit a perp in a sift area the Tap 2 would perform very good. It is not a vmax round though many have that Hirnady Vmax round in their home defense AR15. Tap 2 has about 13 inches through ballistic gel and it fragments violently. I agree through a windshield or outside I'd want my T3's or Speer gold dots. For home defense all these rounds should incapacitate and kill the bad buy. I haven't decided on what is gonna be NY surplus round for back up. Either speer gold dots or Federal Fusion. I have an AK74 and 2,500 rounds if 7N6. This round tumbled like mad. Is it more lethal than 5.56 T3's or Speer gold dots or federal fusion I don't know but for a full metal jacket round its better than green tips and xm193 in 5.56. Also the rifle stays cleaner. I don't like the ballistics if the AJ74 as it goes straight through. I know everyone is pro M4 here and I am to but some days cleaning a dirty rifle becomes a pain in the ass. I like both rifle's equally. Don't get MAD that I think the AK74 is every bit as good as a Colt LE6920 because I love both rifle's very much. I jystvthingvthe 5.45 x .39 round dies more damage. Peace!
How is the AK74 every bit as good as a Colt 6920?? That's a pretty big boast without an explanation. Is it reliability?Accuracy? ruggedness? Modularity? I am trying to understand your statement but the M4 is at another level then the 74.
If you find cleaning a dirty rifle to be a pain in the ass, I think you have your guns backward. I clean my 74 every time I shoot it due to corrosive ammo. My AR gets cleaned........... eventually?
I do wish (Federal) Fusion made some 5.45 ammo.
Wolf.545 x .39
11-21-17, 12:45
How is the AK74 every bit as good as a Colt 6920?? That's a pretty big boast without an explanation. Is it reliability?Accuracy? ruggedness? Modularity? I am trying to understand your statement but the M4 is at another level then the 74.
Because of the long skinny bullet when it hits something is tumbles violen. No fmj 5.56 round does this consistently. It is more reliable, rugged also. I know the AR15 is reliable but AK's go bang every time.
Because of the long skinny bullet when it hits something is tumbles violen. No fmj 5.56 round does this consistently. It is more reliable, rugged also. I know the AR15 is reliable but AK's go bang every time.
This is complete nonsense. Blanket statements are silly.
For the record, 99% of 5.45 ammo sucks.
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indianalex01
11-21-17, 13:23
This is complete nonsense. Blanket statements are silly.
For the record, 99% of 5.45 ammo sucks.
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Agreed. I have used M16A2/A4 and M4 on the battlefield and have never had one fail. I would take 5.56mm any day all day over 5.45x39. The AK isn't even is the same league as a Modern Quality AR and I have and love AK's.
OTMs out of the m4 are "long and skinny" too. And you don't have to deal with all of the downsides of the AK platform.
Next we'll be saying 4 buck out of a bird gun is best. :sarcastic:
Wolf.545 x .39
11-21-17, 21:03
Agreed. I have used M16A2/A4 and M4 on the battlefield and have never had one fail. I would take 5.56mm any day all day over 5.45x39. The AK isn't even is the same league as a Modern Quality AR and I have and love AK's.
I love my Colt AR15 and also like my AK74. The 5.45x.39 round is known for being the more lethal round. However there is not many rounds that can be bought for it. I got 2,509 rounds of 7n6 and it tumbled wickedly. M855 or xm193 doesn't do this. However we can get premium 5.56 ammo that may better 7n6 in 5.45. I love both of my guns really. Both accurate, reliable, light recoil. I don't shoot corrosive 5.45 ammo much so I don't have to clean the AK74 much.
OTMs out of the m4 are "long and skinny" too. And you don't have to deal with all of the downsides of the AK platform.
Next we'll be saying 4 buck out of a bird gun is best. :sarcastic:
Yeah the 75 and 77 otm's are long and skinny. They fragment like crazy not like a vmax bullet that oenetrate's only around 8 inches or so. The otm's penetratation is pretty good. Also after 1.5 to 2 inches it s like a grenade going off.
Why are we talking about the irrelevant 5.45 anyway?
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vicious_cb
11-21-17, 22:03
I love my Colt AR15 and also like my AK74. The 5.45x.39 round is known for being the more lethal round. However there is not many rounds that can be bought for it. I got 2,509 rounds of 7n6 and it tumbled wickedly. M855 or xm193 doesn't do this. However we can get premium 5.56 ammo that may better 7n6 in 5.45. I love both of my guns really. Both accurate, reliable, light recoil. I don't shoot corrosive 5.45 ammo much so I don't have to clean the AK74 much.
I think you need to study you terminal ballistics a bit more. For a round like M855, M193, Mk262 ect to fragment to MUST yaw/tumble first. The axial stress on bullet is what makes it break apart. Also 7n6 is not more lethal than a fragmenting M855 or M193.
5.56 Bonded SP
11-21-17, 22:06
I love my Colt AR15 and also like my AK74. The 5.45x.39 round is known for being the more lethal round. However there is not many rounds that can be bought for it. I got 2,509 rounds of 7n6 and it tumbled wickedly. M855 or xm193 doesn't do this. However we can get premium 5.56 ammo that may better 7n6 in 5.45. I love both of my guns really. Both accurate, reliable, light recoil. I don't shoot corrosive 5.45 ammo much so I don't have to clean the AK74 much.
Incorrect, you are just sharing an internet myth as if it were fact. Can you show me scientific data that proves 7n6 is significantly or even slightly more lethal than M193? Because if you want to actually debate this, I could find sources to back my side of this argument.
7n6 is slower, lighter, generating less foot pounds of energy. It is maybe a fraction of an inch longer than an M193 bullet. 7n6 is not more deadly in any way, it doesn't even fragment... And no, tumbling once within 12'' does not make it a more lethal tumbling round.
They are very similar, they basically do the same thing, they are about the same size, traveling almost the same speed.. However the difference is, M193 has an advantage in every aspect.
- Accuracy
- Velocity
- Fragmentation
- Energy
- Non corrosive.
Just because a bunch of AK guys on the internet love AK74s and preach the awesomeness of 7n6, does not mean they are factually correct. On the contrary, I would have to say much of the internet hype about AK's is just hogwash.
7n6 is less accurate than M193, it is corrosive, produces less energy, and has bi metal jackets which do not allow it to fragment. The only advantage it ever had was that is used to cost 12 cents a round.. Now 7n6 is about the same cost as M193, 7n6 has lost its only advantage or attractive trait. It's a dying round.
I own multiple AK's, I love them, I'll never get rid of them, but they are inaccurate and I've watched those bi-metal jackets poke little straight holes in animals. I have never seen a Bimetal jacketed bullet coming out of an AK do even half of what I have seen M193 do to flesh and bone. M193 can really mess a guy up, and it should not be underestimated at all.
Please, don't listen to the AK fanboys, do the research yourself, and draw your own conclusions.
7n6 is garbage ammo produced by communist penny pinchers, all of that magic poison bullet talk is just a bunch of internet bullshit.
I find it humorous how AK guys who love Ak74s call AR15's poodle shooters, because 5.56 is a more effective round in every regard compared to 5.45.
5.45 is a good caliber, AK's are good guns, they will kill someone dead; but they aren't amazingly reliable, and they don't shoot magic poison bullets. Shoot both types of guns enough and you will start to see why people like AR15's so much more.
The only reason I take my AK's out anymore is to let my friends shoot them, and contrary to popular belief, AK's should be cleaned as well.
Wolf.545 x .39
11-21-17, 22:27
Incorrect, you are just sharing an internet myth as if it were fact. Can you show me scientific data that proves 7n6 is significantly or even slightly more lethal than M193? Because if you want to actually debate this, I could find sources to back my side of this argument.
7n6 is slower, lighter, generating less foot pounds of energy. It is maybe a fraction of an inch longer than an M193 bullet. 7n6 is not more deadly in any way, it doesn't even fragment... And no, tumbling once within 12'' does not make it a more lethal tumbling round.
They are very similar, they basically do the same thing, they are about the same size, traveling almost the same speed.. However the difference is, M193 has an advantage in every aspect.
- Accuracy
- Velocity
- Fragmentation
- Energy
- Non corrosive.
Just because a bunch of AK guys on the internet love AK74s and preach the awesomeness of 7n6, does not mean they are factually correct. On the contrary, I would have to say much of the internet hype about AK's is just hogwash.
7n6 is less accurate than M193, it is corrosive, produces less energy, and has bi metal jackets which do not allow it to fragment. The only advantage it ever had was that is used to cost 12 cents a round.. Now 7n6 is about the same cost as M193, 7n6 has lost its only advantage or attractive trait. It's a dying round.
I own multiple AK's, I love them, I'll never get rid of them, but they are inaccurate and I've watched those bi-metal jackets poke little straight holes in animals. I have never seen a Bimetal jacketed bullet coming out of an AK do even half of what I have seen M193 do to flesh and bone. M193 can really mess a guy up, and it should not be underestimated at all.
Please, don't listen to the AK fanboys, do the research yourself, and draw your own conclusions.
7n6 is garbage ammo produced by communist penny pinchers, all of that magic poison bullet talk is just a bunch of internet bullshit.
I have 7n6 but don't shoot it because of it being corrosive. I was referring and comparing fmj rounds between the 5.56 and 5.45. I knew xm193 was better than m855 but I didn't think it did as well in ballistic gelatin. The lethality of the 5.56 round was due to its fragmentation or so I read that many times. 7n6 in my opinion was banned from importation because of its thought lethality. I could be wrong. 5.56 has so many rounds that do different things. So 5.56 is superior. I still love my AK74 and with a red dot site I can get 2.5 inch groups at 100 yard. My Colt LE6920 I have yet to test out since I bought it last year.
5.56 Bonded SP
11-21-17, 22:36
I have 7n6 but don't shoot it because of it being corrosive. I was referring and comparing fmj rounds between the 5.56 and 5.45. I knew xm193 was better than m855 but I didn't think it did as well in ballistic gelatin. The lethality of the 5.56 round was due to its fragmentation or so I read that many times. 7n6 in my opinion was banned from importation because of its thought lethality. I could be wrong. 5.56 has so many rounds that do different things. So 5.56 is superior. I still love my AK74 and with a red dot site I can get 2.5 inch groups at 100 yard. My Colt LE6920 I have yet to test out since I bought it last year.
7n6 was banned because some jackass made an AK74 pistol so the ATF incorrectly reclassified 7n6 as armor piercing, even though 7n6 did not technically match their definition of armor piercing. I think it's bullshit that is was banned from importation, and around the same time period some jackasses tried to ban M855 as well. Since there are so many more people who shoot AR's in the USA, M855 wasn't banned do to much larger backlash, but sadly 7n6 was.
M193 and M855 tumble as well, that is part of the reason why they fragment at their cannelure. There is a lot of science behind that which I don't want to try and butcher right now.
I just felt compelled to comment on your incorrect statements when you said things like
7n6 in my opinion was banned from importation because of its thought lethality
and
The 5.45x.39 round is known for being the more lethal round.
M855 or xm193 doesn't do this.
vicious_cb
11-21-17, 22:37
I have 7n6 but don't shoot it because of it being corrosive. I was referring and comparing fmj rounds between the 5.56 and 5.45. I knew xm193 was better than m855 but I didn't think it did as well in ballistic gelatin. The lethality of the 5.56 round was due to its fragmentation or so I read that many times. 7n6 in my opinion was banned from importation because of its thought lethality. I could be wrong. 5.56 has so many rounds that do different things. So 5.56 is superior. I still love my AK74 and with a red dot site I can get 2.5 inch groups at 100 yard. My Colt LE6920 I have yet to test out since I bought it last year.
No, it wasnt. Its banned because it was an easy target to label it as AP because of its steel core. Just like they tried with M855 except 7n6 wasnt as popular so they succeeded which made be divest myself of 5.45. Ive probably shot ~15k rounds of 7n6 and while it found it every bit as fast, accurate and flat shooting as XM855 or XM193 I would not choose 7n6 over M193 from a terminal ballistics standpoint.
7N6 cleanup on aisle 3................I thought this was an AR ammo thread? Jeez.
indianalex01
11-22-17, 09:04
7N6 cleanup on aisle 3................I thought this was an AR ammo thread? Jeez.
That was funny :jester:
Wolf.545 x .39
11-22-17, 09:14
No, it wasnt. Its banned because it was an easy target to label it as AP because of its steel core. Just like they tried with M855 except 7n6 wasnt as popular so they succeeded which made be divest myself of 5.45. Ive probably shot ~15k rounds of 7n6 and while it found it every bit as fast, accurate and flat shooting as XM855 or XM193 I would not choose 7n6 over M193 from a terminal ballistics standpoint.
Still it should not have been banned. It can still be bought. I'm gonna pick up 1,080 more rounds of it. I always read that fragmenting rounds caused more damage then tumbling rounds.I know m193 fragments but does it do so reliably? 7n6 tumbles reliably even in 10 inch barrels. I have to look into M193 ammo. M855 doesn't frag consistently at all. Its probably the worst 5.56 round.
7N6 cleanup on aisle 3................I thought this was an AR ammo thread? Jeez.
I have both platforms and love them both. I just don't think m855 or m193 does the damage of 7n6. Unless m193 frags.
I have both platforms and love them both. I just don't think m855 or m193 does the damage of 7n6. Unless m193 frags.
Make a solid hit with any of them and it’s a moot point.
Still it should not have been banned. It can still be bought. I'm gonna pick up 1,080 more rounds of it. I always read that fragmenting rounds caused more damage then tumbling rounds.I know m193 fragments but does it do so reliably? 7n6 tumbles reliably even in 10 inch barrels. I have to look into M193 ammo. M855 doesn't frag consistently at all. Its probably the worst 5.56 round.
It doesn't matter how you feel. It is banned and it is irrelevant to this thread. Give it up, we get it you have an emotional attachment to 7n6. It doesn't have anything to do with this thread.
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Wolf.545 x .39
11-22-17, 12:35
Make a solid hit with any of them and it’s a moot point.
True I just don't like fmj rounds in 5.56. I'm not saying m193 isn't effective, just not in my top 10 for defensive loads.
Not to be a ****, but from reading your posts, I think it would be most beneficial for you to just buy a few cases of Wolf Gold and actually shoot that 6920 that you bought.
Keep a few mags full of whatever good ammo was recommended in this thread, and just learn how to shoot and get used to the AR.
A couple thousand dollars worth of cheap training ammo (that gets used) and just a couple mags of good defensive ammo > a couple thousand dollars worth of good defensive ammo for a gun that has never even been fired.
I'm far from a professional, but I've been there before myself. Overthinking that I have to have nothing but latest greatest ammo loaded up.
indianalex01
11-22-17, 21:12
Not to be a ****, but from reading your posts, I think it would be most beneficial for you to just buy a few cases of Wolf Gold and actually shoot that 6920 that you bought.
Keep a few mags full of whatever good ammo was recommended in this thread, and just learn how to shoot and get used to the AR.
A couple thousand dollars worth of cheap training ammo (that gets used) and just a couple mags of good defensive ammo > a couple thousand dollars worth of good defensive ammo for a gun that has never even been fired.
I'm far from a professional, but I've been there before myself. Overthinking that I have to have nothing but latest greatest ammo loaded up.
Perfectly put.
We get a ton of green tip/M855 for training so I always have lots on hand for range work but keep the SHTF HD mags loaded with work issued Federal 62 grain XM556FBIT3M rounds with Black Hills Barnes 50g optimized TSX as backup. Both are superior all purpose/LE/HD rounds that you could trust with your life.
Have to mention that I chose 70g Barnes TSX for my handloads after seeing first-hand what it did to hogs. I would have no problem loading HD mags with them if two-legged critters were the problem at hand.
indianalex01
11-22-17, 22:48
We get a ton of green tip/M855 for training so I always have lots on hand for range work but keep the SHTF HD mags loaded with work issued Federal 62 grain XM556FBIT3M rounds with Black Hills Barnes 50g optimized TSX as backup. Both are superior all purpose/LE/HD rounds that you could trust with your life.
Have to mention that I chose 70g Barnes TSX for my handloads after seeing first-hand what it did to hogs. I would have no problem loading HD mags with them if two-legged critters were the problem at hand.
The Federal T3 load is arguably the best LE load there is. Not cheap price wise but it is worth it. Great choice. The best there is through glass with amazing expansion and holds together.
Dr. Bullseye
11-22-17, 22:56
I just use 55 grain Federal that I buy at Walmart in the 100 round box. Nobody has ever told me it was not OK, so it is convenient, available, and less than .40 cents a round. Am i going wrong?
indianalex01
11-22-17, 23:09
I just use 55 grain Federal that I buy at Walmart in the 100 round box. Nobody has ever told me it was not OK, so it is convenient, available, and less than .40 cents a round. Am i going wrong?
No you aren't wrong. A good accurate hit is what matters. Rock on.
Wolf.545 x .39
11-22-17, 23:39
The Federal T3 load is arguably the best LE load there is. Not cheap price wise but it is worth it. Great choice. The best there is through glass with amazing expansion and holds together.
I just ordered another hundred of those today. I already have 90 loaded in 3 mags. They were $73 for 100 rounds and I never seen them that cheap. I know there still expensive but like you said its a great all purpose round. These are gonna be loaded for my home defense AR for sure. Any lead fouling issue's with these soft points?
indianalex01
11-23-17, 02:06
I just ordered another hundred of those today. I already have 90 loaded in 3 mags. They were $73 for 100 rounds and I never seen them that cheap. I know there still expensive but like you said its a great all purpose round. These are gonna be loaded for my home defense AR for sure. Any lead fouling issue's with these soft points?
Lead failing isn't an issue. It's an overblown thing. If you are using a reputable AR then you shouldn't have any issues. I tend to use Gold Dots or SOST but T3 is federal's top round in 5.56/223
We get a ton of green tip/M855 for training so I always have lots on hand for range work but keep the SHTF HD mags loaded with work issued Federal 62 grain XM556FBIT3M rounds with Black Hills Barnes 50g optimized TSX as backup. Both are superior all purpose/LE/HD rounds that you could trust with your life.
Have to mention that I chose 70g Barnes TSX for my handloads after seeing first-hand what it did to hogs. I would have no problem loading HD mags with them if two-legged critters were the problem at hand.
I have some of those 70gr Barnes TSX left over from when Silver State built them. Good round.
I just ordered another hundred of those today. I already have 90 loaded in 3 mags. They were $73 for 100 rounds and I never seen them that cheap. I know there still expensive but like you said its a great all purpose round. These are gonna be loaded for my home defense AR for sure. Any lead fouling issue's with these soft points?
Those should work fine in your 6920. Next up: a bazilion rounds of training ammo.
Edit: make sure you shoot some of your defensive ammo to ensure that it works. It SHOULD, but assume nothing.
Wolf.545 x .39
11-23-17, 10:37
Those should work fine in your 6920. Next up: a bazilion rounds of training ammo.
Edit: make sure you shoot some of your defensive ammo to ensure that it works. It SHOULD, but assume nothing.
Yeah training ammo is absolutely next on my list. I got 11 mags for my new Colt LE6920. Only problem I have now is getting to a target range. I live in an inner city and would have to take my rifle on a public bus. They closed down a lot of target ranges here in a liberal big city in PA. That didn't stop me from exercising my 2nd Ammendment right. I got the rifle as a backup rifle but it might be my go to rifle if I like how it shoots. I now have 200rounds of Federal T3's. That should be enough depending on how bad the country gets.Then again I'm pessimistic about this country.
Devildawg2531
01-15-18, 09:21
Great info in this thread. I pulled the trigger on another 14 boxes of Barnes 70 grain TSX as an all purpose round (coyote hunting and HD) for my AR's already had 12 boxes and had shot half of those to test with no functional issues. I have bunch of XM193 as my practice round. I'd been all over the place with my good ammo TAP, GD, Fusion, etc and wanting to lock in on 1 as I'd noticed my POI changes significantly at 300+ when jumping around
Gold dot 64's in my truck gun and Hornady 5.56 75gr SBR Black in my house gun.
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