70 vs 62 tsx for deer

[Mainelymark]

Hello all. I am using my BCM MK12 mod 4x for deer this year. Right now I'm sighted in with some federal fusion 62 grain that are sub moa in the rifle but I just had an order come in with the Barnes. I have a few boxes each of Barnes vor tx 5.56 in 62 and 70 grain. If the 1:8 barrel stabilizes both and both are similar in accuracy, is there any benefit to one or the other weight bullets in a less than 225 yard shot?

[gaijin]

Reasonable to assume better/more penetration with the 70's.

[gunnerblue]

Velocity constantly diminishes but bullet weight remains the same. For such a small cartridge, I would stick with the 70 grain- especially for a less-than-desirable shot angle.

[gaijin]

In a hunting scenario as you describe- I'd take more penetration over an inch or two less drop at 225 yds.

[WS6]

I know people who kill lots of things with the 70gr bullet and have also used the 62. The consensus is that the 70gr is much more dramatic. It's something that numbers/gel/paper don't express, but that they have seen in the field hundreds of times over.


Thanks ws6. I hope they group well

I get around 1.5-1.6" 10 shot groups using the military loading from a 16.1" CHF Chrome-lined freefloated barrel and a 4x nightforce. The /mil load shuffles them through the muzzle at around 2900 fps by my chronograph. They like dah speed, those TSX's!

[kenny256]

Hello all. I am using my BCM MK12 mod 4x for deer this year. Right now I'm sighted in with some federal fusion 62 grain that are sub moa in the rifle but I just had an order come in with the Barnes. I have a few boxes each of Barnes vor tx 5.56 in 62 and 70 grain. If the 1:8 barrel stabilizes both and both are similar in accuracy, is there any benefit to one or the other weight bullets in a less than 225 yard shot?I killed a doe last year with a 1/8 Rainer arms barrel. Using a 75 grain gold dot.

It did the job no problem.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Mainelymark]

Hey fellas. I tried some vor-tx 70 grain and 62 grain in my bcm mk12. The 70 grainers are grouping just over 1.675". The 62 at .75" (shot from a wiggly sawhorse with tiny Walmart sandbags) I'm gonna stick with the 62. My rifle likes the Federal fusion 62's (.675 moa). Between the TSX and the fusion, which would be better for deer and why? Thanks fellas.

[sundance435]

I really doubt you're going to see much of a difference in terminal effect between the two. There might be a slim margin as far as one expanding more reliably and one penetrating a little deeper more reliably, but that'd be about it.

[gaijin]

Hey fellas. I tried some vor-tx 70 grain and 62 grain in my bcm mk12. The 70 grainers are grouping just over 1.675". The 62 at .75" (shot from a wiggly sawhorse with tiny Walmart sandbags) I'm gonna stick with the 62. My rifle likes the Federal fusion 62's (.675 moa). Between the TSX and the fusion, which would be better for deer and why? Thanks fellas.

Federal Fusion due to cost.
Terminal effects with your use of either should be a near wash.

[gaijin]

While statistically insignificant, if not irrelevant- my "lone whitetail with a 5.56" as follows:

Last year I was instructed by mama san to bring home a meat doe. I wanted to use the latest AR build.
The carbine was dialed in with 64 gr. G.D., which was crazy accurate, just under an inch/5 shots at 100.

A group of does filtered into an alfalfa field at first light.
I locked on the largest, range was 160 yds.+.
The doe was quartering towards me. I shot from my knee, knew the shot was good.
The doe took off and ran for 130 yds. I was in disbelief as I knew the shot was sound and heard the characteristic "thwock".

When I got to the doe I saw no blood, none.
I looked closely, turning her over, still nothing- until I noticed blood coming from her mouth.
When I field dressed the doe I found the shot had gone within 1.5" of POA. The near lung, top of heart and offside lung were destroyed.
The deer was obviously dead on her feet but didn't know it.
Frankly I was unimpressed. Had the deer been in the tall grass of the hillside I may have never found her- with zero bloodtrail.
Had that been "muy grande", the buck of a lifetime, I may well have lost him.

Will 5.56 kill a deer? Hell yes.
Is it a reliable "stopper"? Not from this experience.
Will I shoot a deer with a 5.56 again? I've learned to- never say never, but not this year. I'm using a 300 Blk.

Entry wound just above near shoulder/base of neck.

https://i.imgur.com/RVp1Nu4.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/Zqxnfd3.jpg?1

[gaijin]

No exit.

Photo 1 is "left"/port side of deer with TINY entry wound visible.
Photo 2 is "right"/starboard side of deer showing nothing.

[Mainelymark]

Thanks. I'm committed to perfectly broadside or neck. Hopefully I'll get one of those shots.

I'm sitting in a tree stand now. Using the 62 tsx for as much penetration I can get short of fmj's yet still having expansion.

[5.56 Bonded SP]

I would just use whatever one your rifle shoots better/more accurately.

I doubt you'll have to take a shot past 200 yards, and inside that distance there probably won't be much difference for terminal effects. Which is why accuracy would be the deciding factor for me, get a nice heart/neck/head shot and call it a day.

I've seen deer survive a gutshot from a 30-06, so for me it's all about shot placement.

[WS6]

While statistically insignificant, if not irrelevant- my "lone whitetail with a 5.56" as follows:

Last year I was instructed by mama san to bring home a meat doe. I wanted to use the latest AR build.
The carbine was dialed in with 64 gr. G.D., which was crazy accurate, just under an inch/5 shots at 100.

A group of does filtered into an alfalfa field at first light.
I locked on the largest, range was 160 yds.+.
The doe was quartering towards me. I shot from my knee, knew the shot was good.
The doe took off and ran for 130 yds. I was in disbelief as I knew the shot was sound and heard the characteristic "thwock".

When I got to the doe I saw no blood, none.
I looked closely, turning her over, still nothing- until I noticed blood coming from her mouth.
When I field dressed the doe I found the shot had gone within 1.5" of POA. The near lung, top of heart and offside lung were destroyed.
The deer was obviously dead on her feet but didn't know it.
Frankly I was unimpressed. Had the deer been in the tall grass of the hillside I may have never found her- with zero bloodtrail.
Had that been "muy grande", the buck of a lifetime, I may well have lost him.

Will 5.56 kill a deer? Hell yes.
Is it a reliable "stopper"? Not from this experience.
Will I shoot a deer with a 5.56 again? I've learned to- never say never, but not this year. I'm using a 300 Blk.

Entry wound just above near shoulder/base of neck.

Destroying the heart and lung didn't impress you because the deer died before the chest cavity filled with blood to the height of the wound?

[gaijin]

No, the complete lack of a blood trail, not even blood from the wound was the "unimpressed" part. The bullet performed as designed, perfectly.
I shot a buck with a 7mm Mauser (7X57) with a handload of 140 gr. Ballistic Tip a number of years ago.
After the shot the buck took off into a heavily wooded area- he went over 100 yds. after the shot.
The shot was a classic heart/lung hit, the heart was hamburger- yet the buck ran over 100 yds. Tracking the buck in the brush/timber was simple, there was a serious blood trail from the shot to the buck.

The only difference between these two experiences, in terms of terminal performance- was the complete lack of a blood trail with the G.D.

For me, in a hunting scenario, that won't work.

[mr h]

a 160 yard shot with a 64gr gold dot from that short of barrel would put your velocity pretty low, i would think.... considering 64 GD's come out slow anyway.

did you recover the bullet and if so, what is mushroomed?

[gaijin]

I did recover bullet.
Performed as designed.

Again- the problem was not with the ammunition- it functioned flawlessly.
The problem in this ONE experience was; zero blood trail and the deer running over 100 yds.- while effectively dead on her feet.
In this sample of one- the .223 was a lousy deer hunting round.

[sundance435]

I did recover bullet.
Performed as designed.

Again- the problem was not with the ammunition- it functioned flawlessly.
The problem in this ONE experience was; zero blood trail and the deer running over 100 yds.- while effectively dead on her feet.
In this sample of one- the .223 was a lousy deer hunting round.

I don't quite follow your logic here, since the round wasn't the problem, but it's your choice. I just wouldn't use .223 for deer, regardless. It's shotguns or handguns where I'm at, anyway, but even if rifles were allowed, I'd be using a .243 at a minimum.

[gaijin]

That was my view as well, after the fact.

[WS6]

No, the complete lack of a blood trail, not even blood from the wound was the "unimpressed" part. The bullet performed as designed, perfectly.
I shot a buck with a 7mm Mauser (7X57) with a handload of 140 gr. Ballistic Tip a number of years ago.
After the shot the buck took off into a heavily wooded area- he went over 100 yds. after the shot.
The shot was a classic heart/lung hit, the heart was hamburger- yet the buck ran over 100 yds. Tracking the buck in the brush/timber was simple, there was a serious blood trail from the shot to the buck.

The only difference between these two experiences, in terms of terminal performance- was the complete lack of a blood trail with the G.D.

For me, in a hunting scenario, that won't work.

Well frankly then, use a projectile with a large diameter that will provide the blood trail more often than not. This year, I'm using a bullet 3/4" across. That said, a friend of mine last year shot his deer with a 75gr Gold Dot and he said even his .30-30 had never made a blood trail like that, "Ray Charles could see it" "I was astounded that it could bleed that much! (not his first deer by far)" are some of the things he said. Heart/lung hit.

[Send it...]

Been using the 70 grain TSX and the 50 grain Optimized Black Hills 5.56 for bears and bucks a lot this year on the ranch. From 14.5” and 16” barrels. Both work well on head and neck shots. But, the 70 does give us an edge on less than perfect angles

We done several this year with no complaints...

[R.P.]

I’ve came to the conclusion that there is no perfect .224 bullet for deer hunting, but I do believe the 70 grain tsx is the best thing out there right now.
I have been using it to fill my freezer for the past 8-9 years.
That being said, the blood trails are usually minimal at best, sometimes non existent. It will do the job, and in my opinion it does it quite well, especially when you take into consideration the size of the bullet compared to the more traditional rounds out there.

[Mainelymark]

I shot a buck a few days ago. 220 yds quartering towards. 62 grain vor-tx. Hit where I aimed. Bullet took out right lung and liver then entered stomach where I believed it stopped. The deer ran 50 yds and stopped at 200 yds. I shot him in the neck to drop him.
Tiny entrance wounds (expected). No exit wounds. No blood trail. I've shot deer with 30 cal bullets and had no blood for 50 yds, but given the lack of exit wound and size of entrance the blood trail would have been minimal at best.
I'll try the 5.56 in the future but will keep it under 150yds / broadside or neck shots. 48729

[5.56_30-06]

I have the 55 grain TSX in reserve for if I ever want to do hunting with one of my 5.56 rifles, although that would probably be for small or medium sized hogs and not deer. I have not used that load for that purpose, but it seems to get very strong reviews for hogs and deer. So, I tend to think that pretty much all of the TSX bullets will work well in terms of killing medium game.

That said, if a blood trail is the chief concern, I think any small caliber like this is always going to be less than ideal. My two cents is that creating a blood trail is always going to be a crap shoot, with the most reliable factor being the ability to drill a big @$$ hole through the animal (and a .22 cartridge is not well-suited for that). That is not to say that it won't work in many cases, but I just don't see how it could be expected compare to, say, a 300 grain 50 caliber projectile from my muzzle loader.

[Mainelymark]

I hear you. I didn't expect good blood from the entrance wound. I was hoping for a decent sized exit wound but with the angle of the shot the bullet stayed inside the deer. The neck shot had no exit either (obviously). I'm looking at a Grendel in the future.

[5.56_30-06]

I hear you. I didn't expect good blood from the entrance wound. I was hoping for a decent sized exit wound but with the angle of the shot the bullet stayed inside the deer. The neck shot had no exit either (obviously). I'm looking at a Grendel in the future.

It's funny how we are talking about optimized tsx bullets that have been tested endlessly through ballistic gels, chronographs, etc. and engineered and re-engineered with any and all materials that planet earth offers, but in a lot of ways, once you've gotten to the point of the deer walking in front of your line of sight and the rifle is locked and loaded, none of that is going to beat 1820's technology. A decent hit is going to do a better job than most modern calibers of putting the animal down quickly, not ruining a lot of meat, and creating a blood trail. I still marvel that of all the guns I have, none is nearly as versatile for hunting as my 50 caliber muzzle loader, which is the *only* one that I could use to hunt certain game, like brown bear.

... of course when you talk about effective range, sighting in the rifle, lugging all the heavy tools and materials, keeping your propellant dry, having to clean it every time you shoot it, and loading a follow up shot, you see a few improvements since 1820.

[1168]

So, I’m thinking about switching from Fusion MSR for hunting. Mainly because its the only .223 pressure ammo I stock. 62 or 70 grain TSX bullets are what I think I want. What brand loads these the hottest for 5.56 in a 14.5 in barrel? I am familiar with “brown tip” but no longer have access to it. I think it would be optimal for deer and hogs.

[LOBO]

So, I’m thinking about switching from Fusion MSR for hunting. Mainly because its the only .223 pressure ammo I stock. 62 or 70 grain TSX bullets are what I think I want. What brand loads these the hottest for 5.56 in a 14.5 in barrel? I am familiar with “brown tip” but no longer have access to it. I think it would be optimal for deer and hogs.

Not 5.56 but it is 62 gr TSX,

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_305&product_id=757

[ggammell]

So, I’m thinking about switching from Fusion MSR for hunting. Mainly because its the only .223 pressure ammo I stock. 62 or 70 grain TSX bullets are what I think I want. What brand loads these the hottest for 5.56 in a 14.5 in barrel? I am familiar with “brown tip” but no longer have access to it. I think it would be optimal for deer and hogs.

Black Hills has a 5.56 version. 3000 fps out of their test barrel.
Barnes has a 5.56 version. 2850 fps out their test barrel.

[1168]

Black Hills has a 5.56 version. 3000 fps out of their test barrel.
Barnes has a 5.56 version. 2850 fps out their test barrel.

I think Black Hills only sells 70gr with the GMX bullet to civvies. I don’t really know a lot about that bullet, have to do some reading to find out if its “just as good” as the TSX.

The Barnes loading could be what I am looking for, I just found some velocities on TOS, and it appears to be proper 5.56.

[ggammell]

I think Black Hills only sells 70gr with the GMX bullet to civvies. I don’t really know a lot about that bullet, have to do some reading to find out if its “just as good” as the TSX.

The Barnes loading could be what I am looking for, I just found some velocities on TOS, and it appears to be proper 5.56.

They have a 5.56 62gr TSX loading. Available to all. I just bought a box from Brownells.


https://www.brownells.com/ammunition/rifle-ammo/5-56x45mm-nato-62gr-tsx-ammo-prod103293.aspx

[Greentimber]

All of the deer I’ve shot with the 5.56 have exhibited the same response. Dead on their feet, but able to cover varying distances without leaving a blood trail. It’s just a function of the small hole and elasticity of their hide. They’ll die, but aren’t in a hurry to do so. The 70 TSX is able to make spine shots successfully, though. No tracking needed at that point, but a follow up shot may be.

[1168]

They have a 5.56 62gr TSX loading. Available to all. I just bought a box from Brownells.


https://www.brownells.com/ammunition/rifle-ammo/5-56x45mm-nato-62gr-tsx-ammo-prod103293.aspx

My wording was not clear. I’m aware of the Black hills 62gr TSX. What I’m not seeing on Black Hills website is 70gr TSX. They market 70gr GMX instead. If I’m not mistaken, “brown tip” is a Black Hills loaded 70gr TSX, which may be a DoD only thing.

[WS6]

All of the deer I’ve shot with the 5.56 have exhibited the same response. Dead on their feet, but able to cover varying distances without leaving a blood trail. It’s just a function of the small hole and elasticity of their hide. They’ll die, but aren’t in a hurry to do so. The 70 TSX is able to make spine shots successfully, though. No tracking needed at that point, but a follow up shot may be.

My buddy shot a deer with 75gr gold dot (heart and lung) and it left a blood trail Ray Charles could follow if he didn't slip and fall in it. Same friend used Browntip I gave him a few years back, same shot. He preferred the gold dot by a large margin.

The one I shot with ra556b was as you state. A few drops at the site, and 10 feet away, then nothing until the body.

[WS6]

My wording was not clear. I’m aware of the Black hills 62gr TSX. What I’m not seeing on Black Hills website is 70gr TSX. They market 70gr GMX instead. If I’m not mistaken, “brown tip” is a Black Hills loaded 70gr TSX, which may be a DoD only thing.

No comment.

[newkirk]

Only personal experience is with the 70 grain. 2 different deer. 1 shot each. Both bullets went completely through the deer and performed well. I can't imagine there would be much difference in the 62gr.

[Glock9mm1990]

I plan on using 75gr Gold Dot in my BCM for deer this year.

[1168]

No comment.
You sly fox, you.

[rocsteady]

So, I’m thinking about switching from Fusion MSR for hunting. Mainly because its the only .223 pressure ammo I stock. 62 or 70 grain TSX bullets are what I think I want. What brand loads these the hottest for 5.56 in a 14.5 in barrel? I am familiar with “brown tip” but no longer have access to it. I think it would be optimal for deer and hogs.

Lonestar Accuracy sells the brown tip but only in larger quantities than I usually purchase. they can't officially call it brown tip as they were not selected for the contract, but as far as I know it is the same animal. IIRC, they sell to military, government and select other clients.
http://www.lonestaraccuracy.com/

[1168]

Lonestar Accuracy sells the brown tip but only in larger quantities than I usually purchase. they can't officially call it brown tip as they were not selected for the contract, but as far as I know it is the same animal. IIRC, they sell to military, government and select other clients.
http://www.lonestaraccuracy.com/

Thanks.

[WS6]

Lonestar Accuracy sells the brown tip but only in larger quantities than I usually purchase. they can't officially call it brown tip as they were not selected for the contract, but as far as I know it is the same animal. IIRC, they sell to military, government and select other clients.
http://www.lonestaraccuracy.com/

FWIW, I understand Barnes VorTx 70gr to be similar velocity to the BT. I've done further testing with the 70gr GMX current production stuff though, and really, I'm starting to like it a lot. A few changes occurred.

[vicious_cb]

FWIW, I understand Barnes VorTx 70gr to be similar velocity to the BT. I've done further testing with the 70gr GMX current production stuff though, and really, I'm starting to like it a lot. A few changes occurred.

I saw your pic where it stopped shedding petals but does it still have the problem of opening slowly? I like the concept of a gilding metal jacket causing less fouling but that should be secondary to performance.

It would be great if someone made a bullet thats guilding metal on the outside but the inside is soft gooey pure copper.

[100]

These bullets are specifically listed in the "Best Choices for Self-Defense Ammo" post tacked at the top of the page. I assume you read that post but just missed that section? It should also state that there is no need to go to a heavier weight bullet since these do no fragment. 62 is heavy enough, and 55 (or 53 I think) is just fine. 1:9 barrels will not be able to stabilize the 70gr anyway.

[WS6]

I saw your pic where it stopped shedding petals but does it still have the problem of opening slowly? I like the concept of a gilding metal jacket causing less fouling but that should be secondary to performance.

It would be great if someone made a bullet thats guilding metal on the outside but the inside is soft gooey pure copper.

The gel I've seen shows that this is not an issue, objectively, with neck lengths of 0 to 0.5" and depth to maximum cavity less than with tsx even in some cases. Subjectively, it blew the first few milk jugs up very graphically. Caps flew many feet into the air. It made a loud "whap!" I was sufficiently impressed.

At about 2700 to 2800 it begins to shed, and so I recommend it in 14.5 or shorter, or for long distance. I am working on getting the actual BC doped. From what I gather the expansion floor is 1700 to 2000. I wish I had more precise data

[1168]

These bullets are specifically listed in the "Best Choices for Self-Defense Ammo" post tacked at the top of the page. I assume you read that post but just missed that section? It should also state that there is no need to go to a heavier weight bullet since these do no fragment. 62 is heavy enough, and 55 (or 53 I think) is just fine. 1:9 barrels will not be able to stabilize the 70gr anyway.
Anecdotaly, 70gr projectiles (brown tip) work well.

Edit: (1:7 is my only experience with this projectile)

2021 edit: 1:8 has worked for me since then, in one 16” barrel

[ST911]

1:9 barrels will not be able to stabilize the 70gr anyway.

Is that so.

[WS6]

Is that so.

Per all the testing I've seen, it is. Here is a group Molon fired with a 1/9 barrel.
https://public.boxcloud.com/d/1/b1!sFyAZPKn0Ef3E9_U4xx8n2sN6Zl1476lu690uquaBQVCq6uQh5a9E75wR39kaC3FEIM60zHXubNw-caAtQS5-ylzKqBz1hSQasEx_xkWTdVk8iK-FYQOJFhHwP-rab7w37Cffoe4l3wYy9zdUzumWB8NkQDAwKY2E_vnbI2z3L8H2Tv1b0Z47NnhNRnxZBHhdF3B6NEGcUODYlE0AAp7xRFshGCEUqnnPoFfVhAPe4YiWG7xrD_i0nt_oYNUxDS6bnWLkOg-i8dyuw4LRzbq90uDn0f7PNI-MdAgn7qlRzaW9CUwl53zRytBJYTRUf3bkwf6b3a4SoBGLSQy_f_UkA61JzrDw_Io1mI90R6Dn4IeKB3LyaZ7q48JRVsM2MeXr_whdeASNPfTdsX1VdOSWn0wRcm6_hGvWLDIKGLwpnlmz00XIwJrd8g2AU34_FCdFMz0zFOkaJppjnbIATYf3KKP3X_rt69A4g8ShaVxSdvJNohQV4GAL_6aFERKUteLtrgabxyp3lQnPUCkCbLrj73yQ962182uRujvwoVnecAuXmKLxUHCLb34Rdg2-NRiF1XB2wnPwIyZZnhE0gNq2xM9j7m1P2C9KTpwLb-skrW0VWw3z_JkfpQK0zfwhJkWX909rBtV16ABinqy8WSW8-0FJMS6v3enwdeNtbhcZp9wPzRfNAwpMiX4BecN7UPYcM0i0RjkCVZQO2qPOIbYUQElJF_DiXqI9e5tqRYpHUacPxFzZo746VLzFpQJXbPBhwc53VwKwqbRVs6uoi_HEmyauKiOJwlpUW0Lcc2ElmOQOPUbT4NuVgQo00hMp_CMcnwXSrbx8ewHvnzU5EEwm942v8r8Gwg3faU4wZEN6cB8WX06-CUBzATESQSXp-SDPflCmmVzqM_iXjwfaHC9DNonfm6ZX1Qy4-uVRsExQeJuVgBkJDh67XsWbviAJbj0TvCsPXsPMlk_aDX0UNmTF6XogfXzsrkNhlUrzJJ8GqtHObOz0qFhWMKp8UXSjsNQNi5d1pnUIh1dwV4L-qY0n8YugtwmQoXfRO-L2Hh9Y3OTcKcn4IRFXyj5hcW1rcPYaw-CiJLLhf446oUGZnw3KNt3HnqzUd2P0P6jnsPo22qwPkDXXvZEJjAVCb5hnMsQ0TKeVxmRVcAE8kpfJMAzDpaG13fzbKB_01UIQsk8v7KE2bO_ERsBVM_4sMGOpPqYMCUry9N_1fys1GjefazHFXUVubHSyN_bioVbnPgfc7y4lsp78mXbw87am_HMsgI9QG11f20pyRe_oTWobs_Qe1yzQut5EwRoWMqAmTqMVwmDUShS3ZZ9PMhft9dHnFfzmyRZVaUxU1IncUW5k00zm-G4LyEJkwN6iuwCtP3UAW8Vzg../download

As I posted previously in this thread, a barrel with a 1:9” twist theoretically will not stabilize the 70 grain TSX. I put the theory to test using a Colt 16” HBAR with a 1:9” twist.

I fired a 10-shot group of the 70 grain TSX round at a distance of 100 yards using the 1:9” twist barrel. Accuracy was terrible; the group had an extreme spread of over 3 inches. Several of the bullet holes were slightly oblong in shape and a coulple of the bullet holes were clearly “key-holed” demonstrating that a 1:9” twist barrel will indeed not stabilize the 70 grain TSX.
-user: Molon

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?174203-Observations-on-the-Barnes-70-Grain-TSX

[100]

I have had excellent results with the 62gr Federal Fusion out of both my 1-9" 20" barrel and my 1-7 16" barrel. Have put down 6 hogs and 2 does. All dropped where they were shot or went less than 20 yards with very good penetration and expansion. These are Suwanee river pigs ranging from 120 to 340 pounds so far.