View Full Version : Does the argument against a shorter, lighter trigger really hold up?
The general consensus seems to be that the ideal trigger for a defensive gun is around five pounds because if you go with something much lighter, it may be easier to ND under stress. I don't have a lot of experience shooting under real stress but this just seems like BS to me and I'm curious to see what others think because I've only ever seen it as something that gets blindly repeated. I understand the concept on the surface, but here are the two issues I have with it:
1. We all know that the finger isn't supposed to be on the trigger until you're ready to shoot anyways, so if you've ingrained that into your muscle memory and its on the trigger, its because you're actively going through that shot process. In my opinion and experience, this is the biggest rule of firearms safety so it is therefore the one that should be practiced and adhered to the most, making this a relatively uncommon occurrence. But I get it, stress and real life causes shit to happen, so we'll move on to my bigger issue with the claim.
2. If you're in such a stressed, startled, "body alarm response," (insert other chosen buzzwords here) situation that your finger happens to get to the trigger before you actually want it to, then it probably has to be a pretty big "oh shit" moment, right? In that case, is the extra two pounds/few millimeters of trigger pull really going to be the defining factor that prevents your ND? I really doubt it.
I am genuinely curious as to what I am missing that makes this a credible statement. Keep in mind, this is just discussing trigger pull weight and distance, not the potential issues that some aftermarket triggers cause with the factory safety devices. Below is the video that I was just watching that made me ask. I'm a fan of John and his channel, and have seen the statement presented by many different people so it is far from unique to him. I have also had the above views on the statement for longer than a few hours, but just decided to ask it now for whatever reason.
https://youtu.be/Un7h-H3VJjY
Most importantly I want to put my finger on the trigger when I’m “on target” and break the shot when I’m in the bull. A heavier trigger allows me to feel the trigger and time the break as the sights settle on the bull.
I’ve had issues with light triggers where I pulled shots prematurely under stress. I won’t go back. Call it a crutch, it is what it is. Sometimes I could feel it, sometimes not and it threw me off.
The flip side- what benefit does a light trigger offer? Especially in the context of a defensive pistol.
Edit to add/clarify, finger on trigger when I ‘can shoot’ or ‘it’s safe to shoot’ but not necessarily the exact moment yet.
Im outside for a while in 40 degree weather, I shot all summer feeling my trigger, now I might break a shot while I think I’m starting the pull. Life/death difference? Not likely, but it could mean missing a HS at 25yds. In my experience, a light trigger has never shown greater accuracy- but a heavier has in certain situations..
MountainRaven
11-02-17, 20:29
Put some heavy winter gloves on. Or even regular heavy leather work gloves: Depending on the glove, hand/finger size, pistol, and how light your trigger pull is, simply putting your finger in the trigger guard may be sufficient to get the gun to go boom.
We also have the experiences of Todd Green (and others), where LEM and DA triggers are viewed as a benefit because it gives you a visual cue that your finger is pressing the trigger rearward when you might otherwise be oblivious.
And finally, there is the fact that (generally) our brains will unconsciously check to ensure that the trigger is still there, while our conscious brains are too busy deciding when and if to actually pull the trigger to notice (this tie into the above).
Rayrevolver
11-02-17, 21:25
This is a good read with respect to triggers from PF. While the focus is on LEM, I think the points made may backup the argument against short/light.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot
SeriousStudent
11-02-17, 22:19
This is a good read with respect to triggers from PF. While the focus is on LEM, I think the points made may backup the argument against short/light.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot
Dagga Boy, aka Darryl Bolke, is a friend. His commentary is spot on, in my opinion.
Darryl and Wayne Dobbs, who is a member and Industry Professional here, taught me about a research paper written years ago by Dr Roger Enoka. You can read the paper here:
https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/images/docs/classes/Firearms_Patrol_Rifle_Instructor_2014/Section%2015%20Resources.pdf
You do not need to read the entire 95 pages in the PDF, Dr Enoka's paper is the first 10 pages. Basically, he points out situations where ND's are very easy to occur.
If you are serious about carrying firearms, you should read those first 10 pages. And if you talk to LEO's who have worked in high crime areas, many of them can tell you of instances where a person needing to be shot altered their behavior toward the side of angels during a trigger press.
Having a treat management tool that allows one to manage threats is a good thing.
Alaskapopo
11-02-17, 23:21
Dagga Boy, aka Darryl Bolke, is a friend. His commentary is spot on, in my opinion.
Darryl and Wayne Dobbs, who is a member and Industry Professional here, taught me about a research paper written years ago by Dr Roger Enoka. You can read the paper here:
https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/images/docs/classes/Firearms_Patrol_Rifle_Instructor_2014/Section%2015%20Resources.pdf
You do not need to read the entire 95 pages in the PDF, Dr Enoka's paper is the first 10 pages. Basically, he points out situations where ND's are very easy to occur.
If you are serious about carrying firearms, you should read those first 10 pages. And if you talk to LEO's who have worked in high crime areas, many of them can tell you of instances where a person needing to be shot altered their behavior toward the side of angels during a trigger press.
Having a treat management tool that allows one to manage threats is a good thing.
Everyone has an opinion and Dr. Enoka's work mostly tells you not to have your finger on the trigger when you should not. Its not about pull weight. Personally I think you can have a pull too light when you are stressed and the problem is you may fired before you intend too missing the shot or hitting something you did not intend to. That said having heavy triggers with long pulls hurts your hit probability under those same stressful situations. A balance must be struck and that is where people start arguing. For me I like Glock type triggers with a lighter connector in them to make the pull weight around 4.5 pounds.
Pat
And finally, there is the fact that (generally) our brains will unconsciously check to ensure that the trigger is still there, while our conscious brains are too busy deciding when and if to actually pull the trigger to notice (this tie into the above).
I'm normally awesome about keeping my trigger finger along the frame.
I would have thought your line above silly if I hadn't actually done this myself during active shooter training! I had a Beretta 92 (training gun like the real thing, even takes real mags and cycles real rounds, but plastic barrel is solid beyond the chamber and there is no firing pin hole or firing pin) and while pieing a corner I felt my finger touch the DA trigger as if to make sure it was still there. I couldn't believe I did that. An instant after I looked at the SGT running the drill on the outside of the corner I was pieing...goddammit he was looking right at me....
How embarrassing! Ah, well. I guess the drill was pretty intense and/or I take it seriously.
My opinion on triggers for a duty gun? I think 5-7 lbs is the sweet spot. 4 definitely too light (unless it's long) , 8 definitely too much. (DA first shot up to 12 lbs acceptable) JMO.
BuzzinSATX
11-03-17, 04:52
I’n mainly a Glock owner/shooter with stock triggers and 4.5 connectors. I bought a PPQ 45 to see what a nice trigger would be like. Loved that gun, faster and more accurate than my Glock’s based on several range trips shooting multiple steel targets. I really started to think I’d be replacing my 9MM Glocks. Then I went shooting on a cold, blustery day, and as my arthritic hands started to loose feeling, I started having unintended double taps. Had several that day, but none shooting my .45 or .40 Glocks, just the .45 Walther.
So, the Walther was replaced by a new Gen 4 G21.
I’d like shorter, lighter triggers , but I can’t feel comfortable with them when my hands are having a bad day.
YMMV
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From what I remember about Mas's articles from a few years back was the DA saying you "accidentally shot someone" when you really intentionally shot someone in self defense. That was the talking points against a light trigger in a CCW. Of course everyone retorted with "every expert says a 4-4 1/2 trigger pull is perfect for a 1911".
On my striker pistols I prefer a trigger break around 4.5 lbs to 5.0 lbs, a reasonable amount of smooth take up, either a crisp break or a short rolling crisp break, just enough over travel to maintain reliability, and a reasonably short reset. I also like a trigger shoe that in comfortable on my trigger finger.
Doc Safari
11-03-17, 11:29
Most importantly I want to put my finger on the trigger when I’m “on target” and break the shot when I’m in the bull. A heavier trigger allows me to feel the trigger and time the break as the sights settle on the bull.
I’ve had issues with light triggers where I pulled shots prematurely under stress. I won’t go back. Call it a crutch, it is what it is. Sometimes I could feel it, sometimes not and it threw me off.
I am 100% in agreement. I looked forward to the Gen 5 Glock for months. I kept a Gen 5 Glock 17 for exactly a week and then traded it back to the gun shop for a Gen 4. The Gen 4 trigger gives one the ability to do just what you're talking about as far as fine-tuning your aim before the shot breaks. I experienced a couple of premature ignitions (entirely my fault not the pistol's) with the Gen 5 and decided I personally did not like it.
I am 100% in agreement. I looked forward to the Gen 5 Glock for months. I kept a Gen 5 Glock 17 for exactly a week and then traded it back to the gun shop for a Gen 4. The Gen 4 trigger gives one the ability to do just what you're talking about as far as fine-tuning your aim before the shot breaks. I experienced a couple of premature ignitions (entirely my fault not the pistol's) with the Gen 5 and decided I personally did not like it.
Yeah for me also , the stock Gen 5 trigger is somewhat of an acquired taste, not bad, not great, but different.
Doc Safari
11-03-17, 15:36
Dagga Boy, aka Darryl Bolke, is a friend. His commentary is spot on, in my opinion.
Darryl and Wayne Dobbs, who is a member and Industry Professional here, taught me about a research paper written years ago by Dr Roger Enoka. You can read the paper here:
https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/images/docs/classes/Firearms_Patrol_Rifle_Instructor_2014/Section%2015%20Resources.pdf
You do not need to read the entire 95 pages in the PDF, Dr Enoka's paper is the first 10 pages. Basically, he points out situations where ND's are very easy to occur.
I have my doubts that one can be trained to minimize involuntary contractions in the real world--lab experiments notwithstanding--so keeping one's finger outside the trigger guard becomes even more important. Because stress and the "fight-or-flight" response tends to override our ability to think, I am doubtful that involuntary contractions can be "educated out" of a person. Training to minimize involuntary contractions seems like a fantasy, IMHO. You can train someone to keep their finger out of the trigger guard, but I do not think you can train them not to "tense up" when things go rotten. The key term being "involuntary". Put a different way: you can't train your heart not to race under stress. It's called an "involuntary" response for a reason.
I do not believe that in a "training" scenario, you can adequately reproduce anywhere near the stress of a real-world encounter, and therefore I don't think you can make a person "unlearn" the involuntary contractions that make him unintentionally squeeze the trigger. The only thing you can do is train the person to follow proper handling techniques and keep the finger off the trigger until ready to fire. That way when the involuntary contractions occur, there isn't an ND.
So, what does 'finger off the trigger' or 'finger outside the trigger guard' mean to the members of the forum?
southswede
11-03-17, 18:02
So, what does 'finger off the trigger' or 'finger outside the trigger guard' mean to the members of the forum?
Based on what I've read in this thread and threads involving a certain holster, not much. It seems to be more of a theory to some, rather than an actual practice.
Finger off of the trigger is related, but not really the focus of my question. The argument of heavy gloves is about the only decent one I have seen. The observation by LEOs of a suspect’s compliance changing during the trigger pull is interesting for sure, but I’m inclined to think it is more of a coincidence. I haven’t witnessed it so of course I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that a suspect, many of whom are probably unstable, under the influence, or just hyped on adrenaline are able to notice such a small movement of the officer going from off the trigger to prepping that shot. On the other hand, I don’t think many out there disagree with the statement that a lighter, shorter pull is conducive to more accurate shots by most shooters.
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Finger off of the trigger is related, but not really the focus of my question. The argument of heavy gloves is about the only decent one I have seen. The observation by LEOs of a suspect’s compliance changing during the trigger pull is interesting for sure, but I’m inclined to think it is more of a coincidence. I haven’t witnessed it so of course I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that a suspect, many of whom are probably unstable, under the influence, or just hyped on adrenaline are able to notice such a small movement of the officer going from off the trigger to prepping that shot. On the other hand, I don’t think many out there disagree with the statement that a lighter, shorter pull is conducive to more accurate shots by most shooters.
I don't think it necessarily requires the perp noticing the officer's finger going into the trigger guard to prep the shot, it could simply be that the officer just drew, or just raised the gun at the suspect, which is what the suspect/perp reacted to, and it just so happens that the officer was also pressing the trigger as the gun was being drawn/brought onto target. Thinking out loud
For me I like Glock type triggers with a lighter connector in them to make the pull weight around 4.5 pounds.
Pat
On my striker pistols I prefer a trigger break around 4.5 lbs to 5.0 lbs
For this type of discussion, the inherent safety of light triggers, how do you measure a trigger break weight?
For this type of discussion, the inherent safety of light triggers, how do you measure a trigger break weight?
I measure the trigger weight by what I feel comfortable enough with from the feedback from my trigger finger *first* and foremost. Can I control the trigger when running the gun hard. If checking with a break guage, it will usually reads between 4.5-5.0 lbs. I used to own a PPQ, it had a great trigger but it just *felt* too light for my liking when the adrenaline is pumping.
I have personally seen guys discharge their firearm on reset when put under pressure. Typically, these were guys that wanted super-light triggers but had little to no training.
Meanwhile, in competition, I've never seen open-class guys with 1-2 lb. triggers have NDs with the stress of competition. Take it for what it's worth.
I do not see much advantage to sub-4 lb triggers on a defensive gun.
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ramairthree
11-03-17, 22:32
I have personally seen guys discharge their firearm on reset when put under pressure. Typically, these were guys that wanted super-light triggers but had little to no training.
Meanwhile, in competition, I've never seen open-class guys with 1-2 lb. triggers have NDs with the stress of competition. Take it for what it's worth.
I do not see much advantage to sub-4 lb triggers on a defensive gun.
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Concur.
I have seen A/M/GM guys with open guns ND into the ground in front of targets or put round some between targets on splits due to early DC on more than one occasion.
Each time they were given a miss instead of a DQ.
Reality is they ND with the light trigger.
Those are range/game guns
Some geniuses put super light game triggers like that on their carry guns.
With their likely hood of doing so being inversely related to their skill and training level.
I don't think it necessarily requires the perp noticing the officer's finger going into the trigger guard to prep the shot, it could simply be that the officer just drew, or just raised the gun at the suspect, which is what the suspect/perp reacted to, and it just so happens that the officer was also pressing the trigger as the gun was being drawn/brought onto target. Thinking out loud
I took it to mean that as a result of the longer DA pull in the instances referenced the officer was able to determine the subject didn't need to be shot.
Outlander Systems
11-04-17, 09:37
OP, what's your primary pistol?
So, what does 'finger off the trigger' or 'finger outside the trigger guard' mean to the members of the forum?
1) To me, for training and court purposes, if your finger is inside the trigger guard it is the same as having your finger on the trigger. Finger off trigger means finger outside trigger guard. I've heard some trainers argue back and forth about whether having your finger inside the trigger guard is the same as having your finger on the trigger. When asked "would you want to have someone testify in court they observed you had your finger inside the trigger guard when not legally justified in applying deadly force?" the response was a unanimous "Hell No!" With unloaded pistols we experimented with sympathetic muscle reflex while grabbing and dragging a weighted duffle bag. We also experimented with maneuvering quickly over and around obstacles without dragging the duffle bag. There were several negligent trigger presses, that would have been negligent discharges, in a real scenario with a loaded firearm.
This is as site from a case where a LEO was covering a suspect with a revolver and his finger on the trigger. It's Medina vs City of Chicago. https://www.leagle.com/decision/19921096606ne2d49011023.xml After this case was adjudicated many police trainers in the Midwest referred to it when stressing keeping the finger off the trigger while covering a suspect and until the decision to discharge the firearm was made.
2) If I decided to carry a firearm with reduced trigger weight for defensive purposes, I would want to be prepared to justify that decision through documentation including training records well in advance of carrying the firearm. Training records that documented I was more accurate under stress, without incident of negligent discharge, would be one item I would want to have readily available.
The comparison of IPSC and USPSA competitors is not realistic. Most are generally experienced shooters with a lot of trigger time competing in a controlled environment and no one is trying to kill them.
I measure the trigger weight by what I feel comfortable enough with from the feedback from my trigger finger *first* and foremost. Can I control the trigger when running the gun hard. If checking with a break guage, it will usually reads between 4.5-5.0 lbs. I used to own a PPQ, it had a great trigger but it just *felt* too light for my liking when the adrenaline is pumping.
This is about the same trigger weight as I like my Glocks, and also is one of the reasons why I don't like carrying them. When talking about trigger weight as a safety measure as it relates to AD/ND, the discussion should consider pressure weight that can trigger a shot when applied anywhere on a trigger face. If we can accept that a person might make a mistake of ND, we should accept that the mistake might involve applying a pressure / allowing a contact to any part of a trigger, not just the middle of it. For Glocks, 4.5 lbs break at a point of natural finger placement means 4 lbs or less break if trigger is engaged at its tip. So it is not really a 4.5-5 lbs trigger from safety standpoint and this does get to me, so I don't.
Trigger weight will not prevent a Negligent Discharge. The people who will go after you in court after a defensive encounter might be able to convince a jury that trigger weight was a contributing factor to a negligent discharge. Whether or not trigger weight would hurt you in court will depend on where you live, the demographics of the jury pool and how the presiding judge rules on objections to whether or not trigger weight is admissible.
From a practical standpoint my personal preference for trigger weight on a defensive pistol is 4.5 - 5.5 lbs. Personally, I haven't experienced an advantage with a lighter trigger weight.
This is a good read with respect to triggers from PF. While the focus is on LEM, I think the points made may backup the argument against short/light.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot
Here is a quote from that thread that really caught my attention. "Mas Ayoob talks about some of this when he noted coppers are not in the gunfighting business, although we do have to gunfight at times, but in the threat management business. Two different animals completely."
Trigger weight, without a dispute, is a factor that mitigates risks of some NDs. If it weren't, we wouldn't be having this discussion, various SME wouldn't be opining what constitutes a reasonable minimal duty trigger weight, and manufacturers wouldn't set factory pull weights at some arbitrary level. Even the best trained people do things with their guns that shouldn't be done, you just have to spend time around different folks and observe them. Sometimes, even 25 lbs trigger won't matter and sometimes keeping it at a healthy 5+ lbs vs gamey 4- lbs can make a difference.
OP, what's your primary pistol?
Glock 19 at the moment. I have no idea what my pull weight is right now but for the first several years of owning it, there was a 3.5# connector in it. I really didn't feel like it was dangerously light.
I'm sure the sample size of this is small, but has anyone ever heard of someone saying that they realized they were unintentionally pulling the trigger and stopped it before it became an actual ND? Who is to say that those competition shooters wouldn't have ND'd with a five pound trigger too?
Glock 19 at the moment. I have no idea what my pull weight is right now but for the first several years of owning it, there was a 3.5# connector in it. I really didn't feel like it was dangerously light.
I'm sure the sample size of this is small, but has anyone ever heard of someone saying that they realized they were unintentionally pulling the trigger and stopped it before it became an actual ND? Who is to say that those competition shooters wouldn't have ND'd with a five pound trigger too?
I know somebody who was RSO'ing a match when he saw the hammer drawing back on a DA hammer fired pistol as it was being holstered, grabbed the guys arm and told him to stop (was standing right on top of him), no discharge resulted. But that's hearsay as I wasn't there, and is a pretty narrow set of circumstances.
Outlander Systems
11-04-17, 16:53
Excellent.
A salty NCO/M4C'er smoked my balls off with 65-lb dumbbells, and various sprints; culminating in throwing a dufflebag filled with sand around over obstacles and performing varying pistol tasks.
IIRC, you're still AD, and not opposed to giving yourself a light coat of sweat...
I can't speak for anyone else, but after my introduction to getting smoked during a pistol course, my factory G17 trigger literally felt like it weighed an ounce.
That experience convinced me that under duress, the perceived weight of a trigger is reduced considerably.
Glock 19 at the moment. I have no idea what my pull weight is right now but for the first several years of owning it, there was a 3.5# connector in it. I really didn't feel like it was dangerously light.
I'm sure the sample size of this is small, but has anyone ever heard of someone saying that they realized they were unintentionally pulling the trigger and stopped it before it became an actual ND? Who is to say that those competition shooters wouldn't have ND'd with a five pound trigger too?
I can't speak for anyone else, but after my introduction to getting smoked during a pistol course, my factory G17 trigger literally felt like it weighed an ounce.
That experience convinced me that under duress, the perceived weight of a trigger is reduced considerably.
That is indeed a reproducible conclusion. Problem is that even if it feels like an ounce trigger, you won't be shooting it as well as actual ounce heavy (figure of speech) pull trigger. Perception of trigger feeling light doesn't translate in ability to manipulate it any better under duress than under calm conditions, or as if it was a lighter trigger. In fact, usually shooting performance declines under duress, I think this is usually an agreed on statement.
That is indeed a reproducible conclusion. Problem is that even if it feels like an ounce trigger, you won't be shooting it as well as actual ounce heavy (figure of speech) pull trigger. Perception of trigger feeling light doesn't translate in ability to manipulate it any better under duress than under calm conditions, or as if it was a lighter trigger. In fact, usually shooting performance declines under duress, I think this is usually an agreed on statement.
What I took away from that statement was that a light trigger of the arguably-too-light type, might feel like it just-went-off as you feel for it and BANG
1) To me, for training and court purposes, if your finger is inside the trigger guard it is the same as having your finger on the trigger. Finger off trigger means finger outside trigger guard. I've heard some trainers argue back and forth about whether having your finger inside the trigger guard is the same as having your finger on the trigger. When asked "would you want to have someone testify in court they observed you had your finger inside the trigger guard when not legally justified in applying deadly force?" the response was a unanimous "Hell No!" With unloaded pistols we experimented with sympathetic muscle reflex while grabbing and dragging a weighted duffle bag. We also experimented with maneuvering quickly over and around obstacles without dragging the duffle bag. There were several negligent trigger presses, that would have been negligent discharges, in a real scenario with a loaded firearm.
This is as site from a case where a LEO was covering a suspect with a revolver and his finger on the trigger. It's Medina vs City of Chicago. https://www.leagle.com/decision/19921096606ne2d49011023.xml After this case was adjudicated many police trainers in the Midwest referred to it when stressing keeping the finger off the trigger while covering a suspect and until the decision to discharge the firearm was made.
I honestly don't where this comes from, we taught 'The Universal Cover Mode' and posited that in the "UCM" three things had to exist before the trigger finger entered the trigger guard and contacted the trigger - 1) target ID'ed as threat; 2) sights on target; 3) decision to fire.
My question what does 'finger off the trigger' or 'finger outside the trigger guard' mean to the members of the forum? Wasn't artfully asked, I wanted to make a point.
Some folks think that laying their finger across the trigger guard with the fingertip resting on the front of the trigger guard is 'finger outside of trigger guard.' In reality it isn't, startle, stumble, or sympathetic contraction at maximum exertion will likely result in flexion sufficient to ND a SA or striker fired pistol.
The finger needs to have as much metal under it as possible. The tip of the trigger finger should be touching - actually laying on - the slide of the weapon. Right handed shooters should be laying against the ejection port, left handed shooters on the flat of the slide as high as possible. Positioning like this requires the finger to not only flex to the rear, but also requires contraction to move the finger down.
The AR is more problematic because there are controls in close vicinity to the location you'd want to lay the finger tip. The rear ejection port cover boss is a good location for righties; I'm a leftie and to be honest, I got nothing to recommend that gives me a warm fussy, I index on the top of the bolt catch, but I have long fingers. Key elements, you want as much metal as possible under your finger, and keep away from the mag release.
That's JMO, I've seen a few ND's during force on force because of trigger finger flexion and know of one case where a bad guy who didn't need to be shot got shot because an officer stumbled and his finger flexed onto the trigger.
ramairthree
11-04-17, 21:58
People exist in different worlds.
If someone has been categorized to the point my gun is aimed at them, my finger is on the trigger and already squeezing,
There is no going back.
They are eating rounds until they fall.
And for me to be doing so with a pistol would have meant my carbine being down.
Trigger pull as a function of letting me decide to stop pulling the trigger was never part of the equation.
Once some met the pull the trigger option, there was no do over for them.
I honestly don't where this comes from, we taught 'The Universal Cover Mode' and posited that in the "UCM" three things had to exist before the trigger finger entered the trigger guard and contacted the trigger - 1) target ID'ed as threat; 2) sights on target; 3) decision to fire.
My question what does 'finger off the trigger' or 'finger outside the trigger guard' mean to the members of the forum? Wasn't artfully asked, I wanted to make a point.
Some folks think that laying their finger across the trigger guard with the fingertip resting on the front of the trigger guard is 'finger outside of trigger guard.' In reality it isn't, startle, stumble, or sympathetic contraction at maximum exertion will likely result in flexion sufficient to ND a SA or striker fired pistol.
The finger needs to have as much metal under it as possible. The tip of the trigger finger should be touching - actually laying on - the slide of the weapon. Right handed shooters should be laying against the ejection port, left handed shooters on the flat of the slide as high as possible. Positioning like this requires the finger to not only flex to the rear, but also requires contraction to move the finger down.
1) I understand your question now. We taught finger touching the side of the frame, well above the trigger, pointed the same direction as the muzzle until it became necessary to fire. I agree with your point about laying the finger on the trigger guard. Under stress it can bite you. I've seen it bite personnel during training.
2) Concerning trigger weight, I witnessed a ND during a foot pursuit. The Deputy was carrying an out of the box DA/SA S&W 5906. He pulled all the way through DA and fired a round into the ground after he grabbed the suspect's sweatshirt with his free hand. Finger position, not trigger weight, caused the ND.
Sparky5019
11-05-17, 20:56
I see this more as a personal answer each user. I’ve spent what amounts to, in consecutive time, years shooting “under stress” with sub 1# triggers on handguns. I’ve never had issues with that. My defensive Glocks are set at super short, super sharp 3# pulls with zero take up.
I temper the above with the fact that no one has ever been shooting back at me. I do take issue with the “heavy leather work glove” example though. That strikes me as a “see I’m right because of x” argument. Most people can’t argue with that because you don’t want to try to stuff a welding glove in a trigger guard. I’ve not seen many surveillance vids of Street gunfights where the good guy was wearing welding gloves. Just sayin. The most would be a light set of winter gloves and I see that as something to address if you accept the responsibility of carrying a gun. Most work I do “outside” only requires a set of mechanix gloves. JMO.
ETA: Great points in the vid in the OP’s post. One thing that I’ve not heard anyone bring up is neuropathy. If you have issues with that and don’t have good sensation in your fingertips, that might argue for a heavier pull or more pretravel in a trigger.
I will add to my previous pist that a safety would make a light trigger acceptable to me, as the safety doesn’t come off till I’m on target.
I still prefer a heavier trigger- gen4 glock with ‘-‘ connector
I will add to my previous pist that a safety would make a light trigger acceptable to me, as the safety doesn’t come off till I’m on target.
I still prefer a heavier trigger- gen4 glock with ‘-‘ connector
Is that how you run a 1911? Once out of the holster and heading for the target my thumb rests on top of the "go peddle" (safety). Finger stays off the trigger until on target, but the safety is off.
Is that how you run a 1911? Once out of the holster and heading for the target my thumb rests on top of the "go peddle" (safety). Finger stays off the trigger until on target, but the safety is off.
It was a SAO CZ. It depended on the situation. If I was drawing to shoot, safety would come off as soon as the muzzle was towards target. If I was moving with the gun in hand, the safety generally went on when I came off target and went off when I was on the next.
Alaskapopo
11-06-17, 23:52
I believe the safety should come off as your clearing leather and rotating the gun to a horizontal position because you may have to shoot up close and bad breath distance. Muscle memory being the key. You're draw and when you take the safety off should not depend on the situation. It should always be the same.
The most prolific 1911 competitive shooter of modern times on this subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKzfryAXwNY&feature=youtu.be
Various Special Forces instructors teach the same, PMac spends a considerable amount of time on this subject. Safety comes off when gun is referenced on the target. If you using sights, when sights are on. If you are shooting from retention, when you are about to shoot.
Just got done arguing with a guy who was insistent that a .3 pound trigger pull, yes, .3, as in a like a quarter pound was what he felt was required for anyone to shoot a pistol, or any gun accurately. Of course he was also arguing when I brought up IDPA and USPSA that he shot it with an anschutz with a .3 pound trigger and that was what he and real competitors used, so......
On light triggers for handguns, or anything, barring something dedicated target shooting, once you start going much below maybe 4.5 pounds I think you are pushing the range that you are safe for most shooters(Now, what we want to consider most can be argued, but a pound or so difference in a trigger should not be making or breaking you). I say that from shooting as a far bit combative type shooting, as well as running various models, Striker fired, DA/SA, and even revolvers running them straight DA. I can't tell the damn difference if I am threat focused or focusing solely on the slights. I would personally say that as long as the trigger is smooth, and I've shot well with crunch-chewity, triggers as well, but smooth, and consistent, and decent sights I can stack rounds under time and stress. A lighter trigger wouldn't have made enough difference to notice. As far as short trigger, within reason, I don't see where they are of huge benefits, because again at speed, under time, under stress, I don't see myself trying to shoot from reset. Again, I would rather have a smooth trigger that is consistent in a reasonable range of 4.5-5.5 pounds with sights that I can exploit. I am of course looking solely at combative or defensive type shootings.
Just got done arguing with a guy who was insistent that a .3 pound trigger pull, yes, .3, as in a like a quarter pound was what he felt was required for anyone to shoot a pistol, or any gun accurately. Of course he was also arguing when I brought up IDPA and USPSA that he shot it with an anschutz with a .3 pound trigger and that was what he and real competitors used, so......
I'll make sure to pass this along to The Beard and Ben Stooger and Vogel as I'm sure they are unaware since they use a 1911 and a Stock 2 and a Glock respectively.
I'll make sure to pass this along to The Beard and Ben Stooger and Vogel as I'm sure they are unaware since they use a 1911 and a Stock 2 and a Glock respectively.
Please do. And if you can find out what 9mm or .45 Anschutz he was using, cuz I got nothing that I can come up with as far as he was claiming to use, let me know that too.
I believe a 5# trigger is to light for a defense gun. Frankly I believe a double acton 8/9# double action trigger is important to protect for un-wanted firing.
It doesn't matter to me about you have to keep your finger off the trigger because in the heat of your defense and probably the only time in your life you'll may be in this situation, you simply don't know what you'll do. so the trigger is the only thing you have to count on and a 8/9# trigger is not to much by far..
I believe the double/single striker fired trigger will be the new trigger that's safer to use, there are a few guns out now, more to come.
Doc Safari
11-13-17, 17:22
I took my Gen 4 Glock 17 with the "old" trigger to the range this weekend ("old" trigger as opposed to the lighter Gen 5 trigger).
After shooting 100 rounds or so, I'm ALMOST ready to say that even the older trigger is too light for a stressful situation.
That's why I'm not opting to join the Glock Gen 5 crew.
I took my Gen 4 Glock 17 with the "old" trigger to the range this weekend ("old" trigger as opposed to the lighter Gen 5 trigger).
After shooting 100 rounds or so, I'm ALMOST ready to say that even the older trigger is too light for a stressful situation.
That's why I'm not opting to join the Glock Gen 5 crew.
The gen 5 triggers I've gauged were 6.5 lbs compared to about 6 lbs for Gen 4s and 5.5 lbs for Gen 3 guns. I think the Gen 5 gets praise for the lack of a wall and that it smoother throughout the press.
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I believe a 5# trigger is to light for a defense gun. Frankly I believe a double acton 8/9# double action trigger is important to protect for un-wanted firing.
It doesn't matter to me about you have to keep your finger off the trigger because in the heat of your defense and probably the only time in your life you'll may be in this situation, you simply don't know what you'll do. so the trigger is the only thing you have to count on and a 8/9# trigger is not to much by far..
I believe the double/single striker fired trigger will be the new trigger that's safer to use, there are a few guns out now, more to come.
I agree and disagree. I do think DA/SA is kind of making a bit of a come back. I know *runs off and grabs nomex flight suit* the glockmafia will flame my ass for that, but you know what, there is something to a good DA/SA trigger. Operative phrase being "good." And while for quite some time I was against the LEM trigger, recently handled one, and wow, I was actually pleased with it. That said, I will reiterate the point that a smooth trigger makes more sense to me than a light or short trigger. I mean, I just went out the other week with my old Colt .38 and running it DA stacked. STACKED. a cylinder into like one hole at 10 yards. Without trying too much. A nice smooth consistent trigger is NICE! But, for all practical purposes, I unless I am needing to make a very precise shot, the slightly larger group with my 19 isn't really a huge issue, and I am not even convinced that the trigger is the difference in group size there, I wouldn't be surprised if it is the difference in sights, and just mechanical accuracy.
That said, I've been in a few situations where adrenaline was basically getting mainlined into my ass and guns were getting shoved in people's faces, ears, eye sockets, and I can say that even in situations where I seriously thought someone was getting shot. I managed to keep finger out of the trigger until I either made my decision to shoot, or the event came down and the gun went into holster or away. That ain't the trigger it the training. If the concern is we need a heavier trigger to some an ND or AD or Bill from shooting anything and everything, then you end up going down the path that well, 8 pounds ain't enough, so lets go to 10, then 12, and then 14, then 18, and then you end up in a situation where you stop ADs, or NDs or whatever via trigger pull weight, but ability for your average shooter to hit dick goes out the window, and possibly even the ability to pull the ****ing trigger in a bad situation. And legit, I've been shot in the hand, more a frag situation really, not serious, but like I said frag, think someone taking a hammer to your hand as far as what it felt like, but I've been hit in the hand that was sucky. Could I still pull the trigger after getting hit? Yes. It took some mental fortitude and a high pain tolerance, but I don't know if I would have been able to easily, or even at all, run a long DA trigger in the 12 pound range, 8 pounds might have been iffy. A 5 pound trigger was doable and hits could still be made, I can say that because I did it. Now, in defense, yes, shoot off hand, but considering, and this is a legit point, most people don't shoot nearly enough to be proficient with their strong hand, forget their weak hand and ****ing forget being able to shoot one handed. Yes, we train with it, and most here could run a single action revolver better with a couple weeks of training and shooting, better than 94% of most shooters could run their carry or defensive gun of choice.
Point I get to, train, train, train, shoot, shoot, shoot, and learn to run the gear. Also, we as a group, generally, are not trying to outfit an entire group, and armament by committy is what is likely to happen with any force, and trust me, chances are whatever they get it will be made to the lowest bidder.
On a side note, I shoot a mil spec trigger in my AR better than most guys I see at the range with their Geissele* or match grade triggers. Actually, I shoot better groups with a milspec trigger and M193 and iron sights than most shoot with their match triggers of whoever and "match" grade ammo and some kind of optic. Hardware vs software fixes you know.
*For the sake of being open, both my go to ARs have Geissele SSA triggers in them. So......
There have been some decent responses to this thread, some of which I still want to address directly, but the vast majority of responses have been the practice that is in question.
“I think you need an 8lb trigger pull.”
Cool story. Why? What has shown you that an 8lb pull will prevent an ND when a 4lb would not?
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Heavy triggers can be more accurate than a lot of people give them credit for.
Light triggers can be a lot more safe than a lot of people give them credit for.
Conversely, heavy triggers don’t make you safe
Light triggers don’t make you a good shooter.
There is an ocean of gray within those 4 corners. I don’t think there is a right or wrong trigger, just different. Being familiar with the gun, and having a safety oriented mentality is #1.
Outlander Systems
11-14-17, 06:33
Gospel.
Heavy triggers can be more accurate than a lot of people give them credit for.
Light triggers can be a lot more safe than a lot of people give them credit for.
Conversely, heavy triggers don’t make you safe
Light triggers don’t make you a good shooter.
There is an ocean of gray within those 4 corners. I don’t think there is a right or wrong trigger, just different. Being familiar with the gun, and having a safety oriented mentality is #1.
Triggers that are easier to shoot other things with, are easier to shoot yourself and things you don’t intend to shoot with. Heavier triggers that are harder to shoot yourself and things you don’t want to shoot, are also harder to shoot things you do want to shoot.
Most people focus on the shot fired by accident, but not the shots intentionally fired that miss. There is no free lunch.
Triggers that are easier to shoot other things with, are easier to shoot yourself and things you don’t intend to shoot with. Heavier triggers that are harder to shoot yourself and things you don’t want to shoot, are also harder to shoot things you do want to shoot.
Most people focus on the shot fired by accident, but not the shots intentionally fired that miss. There is no free lunch.
This is a highly subjective topic. All in all, I think most folks can work through a heavier trigger with practice of proper application of the fundamentals. At one point I had turned myself into a slightly above average bullseye shooter. I used a Model 10 based PPC revolver. I shot the timed and rapid stages double action. Beat a lot of Gold Cups. Obviously, a longer and heavier trigger.
I think most LE/HD shooters can work better with a trigger that is a shade too heavy, rather than one that is a shade too lite.
JMO
Alaskapopo
11-14-17, 23:30
Triggers that are easier to shoot other things with, are easier to shoot yourself and things you don’t intend to shoot with. Heavier triggers that are harder to shoot yourself and things you don’t want to shoot, are also harder to shoot things you do want to shoot.
Most people focus on the shot fired by accident, but not the shots intentionally fired that miss. There is no free lunch.
Perfectly stated.
Alaskapopo
11-14-17, 23:32
This is a highly subjective topic. All in all, I think most folks can work through a heavier trigger with practice of proper application of the fundamentals. At one point I had turned myself into a slightly above average bullseye shooter. I used a Model 10 based PPC revolver. I shot the timed and rapid stages double action. Beat a lot of Gold Cups. Obviously, a longer and heavier trigger.
I think most LE/HD shooters can work better with a trigger that is a shade too heavy, rather than one that is a shade too lite.
JMO
I disagree. Would rather it be on the lighter side vs the heavier side. My opinion based on teaching my fellow leo's and citizens to shoot for the last 16 years. A heavy trigger makes flinching all that much easier and making a good shot all that much harder especially during the beginning stages of a shooters career.
MountainRaven
11-14-17, 23:47
Triggers that are easier to shoot other things with, are easier to shoot yourself and things you don’t intend to shoot with. Heavier triggers that are harder to shoot yourself and things you don’t want to shoot, are also harder to shoot things you do want to shoot.
Most people focus on the shot fired by accident, but not the shots intentionally fired that miss. There is no free lunch.
One doesn't generally run into issues with heavy triggers inducing misses until you're looking at trigger weights over 10 pounds.
One doesn't generally run into issues with heavy triggers inducing misses until you're looking at trigger weights over 10 pounds.
Do you have any evidence to back up that statement?
One doesn't generally run into issues with heavy triggers inducing misses until you're looking at trigger weights over 10 pounds.
My experience definitely shows otherwise.
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Alaskapopo
11-15-17, 02:28
My experience definitely shows otherwise.
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Mine too.
Pat
noonesshowmonkey
11-15-17, 02:31
The entire goal that I have for my gear, pistol or otherwise, is for it to get out of the way and let me do what I am trying to do: win a fight.
I am issued a handgun with a NY2 trigger spring, giving me a 12lb monstrosity to work through. I can, and will, shoot bullseyes with that at 25yards. It doesn't mean that it's easy, and it doesn't mean that the hardware isn't holding me back. I would much prefer make shots like that with my tuned Glock 17 and Dawson sights.
But, I can still make good, reliable a-zone hits on a man out to 25y and beyond with my issued G22.
The trigger is the primary interface between a shooter and the firearm. There are as many opinions on what makes for a 'perfect' trigger as there are shooters (read: a bunch). But, the trigger is still the most significant point of interaction with a firearm by the user, and given that firearms are more often than not capable of mechanical accuracy far greater than their users, the less I have to add to that system (trigger pull length, trigger weight), the better. I am the weakest link in every single piece of shooting gear that I have.
There is a point of diminishing returns / return to reason that must be used. A tuned, competition 1911 trigger that will shoot if you breathe on it wrong is a liability in a duty/issue context. Similarly, the 12lb NY2 trigger on my duty gun is the same kind of mess, inverted.
For me, a clean DA/SA as perfected by Sig Sauer or in a well built M9 is pretty much the gun-shooter interface of my dreams. Beyond that, a well polished, well run in Glock with (-) connector and an extra power trigger spring get's a close second.
Either way, when I am shooting for time and points, under stress, and especially after physical effort, the trigger is the last thing on my mind. At that point, it only matters because it will show up on the target, and even then, the mechanical trigger is only 5% (at best) of the failure points. The rest are me.
OttoLoader
11-15-17, 09:19
Goldielocks triggers are good with me. Not too light not too heavy.
Also I like a wall so I can tell where the break is. Analogy is quickly staging a S&W j frame double action. To the observer it looks like I am making one continpous trigger pull but actually I feel the takeup as the cylinder rotates with cocking. I feel the wall so I make sure my sight picture is right on then I squeeze like a tight single action trigger. Started using this technique with a Ruger lcp. Now I tend to do this with everything. So a standard factory trigger Glock is a lot easier to use with alot of trigger and taking up the slack.
Also I keep my finger away from the trigger guard and trigger until on target and decide to shoot.
Learned this as a teenager using a shotgun wearing heavy gloves in winter hunting.
Short reset I follow through and let trigger all the way out. I do not feel the reset then shoot again. Developed this because I like to shoot different handguns that all operate differently.
Alaskapopo
11-15-17, 13:25
The entire goal that I have for my gear, pistol or otherwise, is for it to get out of the way and let me do what I am trying to do: win a fight.
I am issued a handgun with a NY2 trigger spring, giving me a 12lb monstrosity to work through. I can, and will, shoot bullseyes with that at 25yards. It doesn't mean that it's easy, and it doesn't mean that the hardware isn't holding me back. I would much prefer make shots like that with my tuned Glock 17 and Dawson sights.
But, I can still make good, reliable a-zone hits on a man out to 25y and beyond with my issued G22.
The trigger is the primary interface between a shooter and the firearm. There are as many opinions on what makes for a 'perfect' trigger as there are shooters (read: a bunch). But, the trigger is still the most significant point of interaction with a firearm by the user, and given that firearms are more often than not capable of mechanical accuracy far greater than their users, the less I have to add to that system (trigger pull length, trigger weight), the better. I am the weakest link in every single piece of shooting gear that I have.
There is a point of diminishing returns / return to reason that must be used. A tuned, competition 1911 trigger that will shoot if you breathe on it wrong is a liability in a duty/issue context. Similarly, the 12lb NY2 trigger on my duty gun is the same kind of mess, inverted.
For me, a clean DA/SA as perfected by Sig Sauer or in a well built M9 is pretty much the gun-shooter interface of my dreams. Beyond that, a well polished, well run in Glock with (-) connector and an extra power trigger spring get's a close second.
Either way, when I am shooting for time and points, under stress, and especially after physical effort, the trigger is the last thing on my mind. At that point, it only matters because it will show up on the target, and even then, the mechanical trigger is only 5% (at best) of the failure points. The rest are me.
Good points also its one thing to slow fire good groups. I can do that with heavy triggers if need be just takes work. However snap shooting when the target is only available for a limited time with a heavy trigger forget about it. Such as a suspect leaning out from behind cover to take a shot at you then returning to cover.
noonesshowmonkey
11-15-17, 13:55
Good points also its one thing to slow fire good groups. I can do that with heavy triggers if need be just takes work. However snap shooting when the target is only available for a limited time with a heavy trigger forget about it. Such as a suspect leaning out from behind cover to take a shot at you then returning to cover.
Luckily (sort of?), most LE engagements are 3ish yards or less, often in open terrain, and don't make it to a shootout from cover.
Meanwhile, training with a heavy trigger can and will produce good accuracy. It isn't ideal, but you have to use what you're issued, so get good with it.
A heavy trigger definitely gets in the way of / impedes accurate shooting. Of that, I have no doubt. But but but muh DA-only revolver shooting! Accuracy there is a consequence of the long, steady pull rendering highly predictable the impetus that the shooter places on the gun during the trigger press, and the often high mechanical accuracy of revolvers. Any trigger, barring mechanical aberrations, will be easier to score good hits with if the amount of travel and pressure required to actuate that trigger are reduced. As said above, there is a floor to the expression of this equation: you can get too light / too short. A friend's plate match / IDPA open class CZ75 and 1911 in 9mm doublestack both have triggers so light that it is essentially irresponsible to operate either weapon outside of the context of a closed flat range.
All of that said, shots on small / partially obscured targets, especially with the added stress of time, much less if you're on a two-way range, will quickly show a shooter where their gear is lacking. Honestly, with adrenaline flowing, the mid-ground of this particular standard distribution has a very large, broad peak to the bell curve; it's only on the far ends of the tail on either side that a shooter will genuinely and actively notice a problem.
MountainRaven
11-15-17, 14:02
Do you have any evidence to back up that statement?
My experience definitely shows otherwise.
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Mine too.
Pat
Cops shooting 10+ lb. Glocks seem to hit bystanders more often than perps while cops shooting double-action autos (and double-action revolvers) seem to do quite well.
Alaskapopo
11-15-17, 14:07
Cops shooting 10+ lb. Glocks seem to hit bystanders more often than perps while cops shooting double-action autos (and double-action revolvers) seem to do quite well.
Are we just making up fantasy quotes. lol. Cops with 1911s have the best hit ratio historically
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Alaskapopo
11-15-17, 14:10
Luckily (sort of?), most LE engagements are 3ish yards or less, often in open terrain, and don't make it to a shootout from cover.
Meanwhile, training with a heavy trigger can and will produce good accuracy. It isn't ideal, but you have to use what you're issued, so get good with it.
A heavy trigger definitely gets in the way of / impedes accurate shooting. Of that, I have no doubt. But but but muh DA-only revolver shooting! Accuracy there is a consequence of the long, steady pull rendering highly predictable the impetus that the shooter places on the gun during the trigger press, and the often high mechanical accuracy of revolvers. Any trigger, barring mechanical aberrations, will be easier to score good hits with if the amount of travel and pressure required to actuate that trigger are reduced. As said above, there is a floor to the expression of this equation: you can get too light / too short. A friend's plate match / IDPA open class CZ75 and 1911 in 9mm doublestack both have triggers so light that it is essentially irresponsible to operate either weapon outside of the context of a closed flat range.
All of that said, shots on small / partially obscured targets, especially with the added stress of time, much less if you're on a two-way range, will quickly show a shooter where their gear is lacking. Honestly, with adrenaline flowing, the mid-ground of this particular standard distribution has a very large, broad peak to the bell curve; it's only on the far ends of the tail on either side that a shooter will genuinely and actively notice a problem.
A trooper I know made 6 out of 8 shots on a rifle armed suspect at 50 yards. He was using a Glock 22 standard trigger. He won the suspect lost. There is no such thing as an average gunfight.
Also some of us use personal weapons.
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Cops shooting 10+ lb. Glocks seem to hit bystanders more often than perps while cops shooting double-action autos (and double-action revolvers) seem to do quite well.
That's a pretty bold statement for such weak evidence. My accuracy with an M9 is nowhere near as good as with my Glock, much less my Apex'd M&P or 1911. Several newer shooters that I have introduced to shooting all typically fare better with the lighter triggers as well.
noonesshowmonkey
11-15-17, 14:29
A trooper I know made 6 out of 8 shots on a rifle armed suspect at 50 yards. He was using a Glock 22 standard trigger. He won the suspect lost. There is no such thing as an average gunfight.
Also some of us use personal weapons.
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There is no One Gunfight Theory to Rule Them All, to be sure, but there are statistical averages. Alaska, however, is an outlier, and your anecdotal experience is likely to be very different from the majority of urban police.
Similarly, 'some' may use personal weapons, but 'most', as in an overwhelming majority, do not.
Either case, my points about the average LE gunfight decidedly not involving long range, cover based shooting stands. And even then, training is the chief indicator of a shooter's ability to make hits, not their equipment.
Cops shooting 10+ lb. Glocks seem to hit bystanders more often than perps while cops shooting double-action autos (and double-action revolvers) seem to do quite well.
Again, do you have something to back that up? because that's not what I've read in the past. IIRC from my past readings, hit factors increased appreciably when trigger pulls remained constant (no DA/SA transition) and dropped below 6#. If you have something that says otherwise, I think we'd all like to read it!
MountainRaven
11-15-17, 14:50
A trooper I know made 6 out of 8 shots on a rifle armed suspect at 50 yards. He was using a Glock 22 standard trigger. He won the suspect lost. There is no such thing as an average gunfight.
Also some of us use personal weapons.
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And then there's the Air Force MP who took a 75 yard shot with a Beretta M9 and plugged a would-be mass shooter and killed him.
Again, do you have something to back that up? because that's not what I've read in the past. IIRC from my past readings, hit factors increased appreciably when trigger pulls remained constant (no DA/SA transition) and dropped below 6#. If you have something that says otherwise, I think we'd all like to read it!
I seem to recall that the average number of rounds fired by police in firefights when revolvers - double-action revolvers - were issued was 1 or 2. Since then, it is supposed to have gone up to 8 or something.
In 2005, per the New York Times, NYPD had a 17.4% hit rate. A few years ago, rather infamously, NYPD was involved in a shooting with an armed suspect in which nobody was killed - but several bystanders were wounded.
NYPD requires pistols with 10+ lb. trigger pulls.
LAPD allows both standard Glocks and DA/SA autos and has something closer to a 40-50% hit-rate.
Outlander Systems
11-15-17, 14:55
Jesus Christ.
Neck yourself.
Cops shooting 10+ lb. Glocks seem to hit bystanders more often than perps while cops shooting double-action autos (and double-action revolvers) seem to do quite well.
And then there's the Air Force MP who took a 75 yard shot with a Beretta M9 and plugged a would-be mass shooter and killed him.
I seem to recall that the average number of rounds fired by police in firefights when revolvers - double-action revolvers - were issued was 1 or 2.
In 2005, per the New York Times, NYPD had a 17.4% hit rate. A few years ago, rather infamously, NYPD was involved in a shooting with an armed suspect in which nobody was killed - but several bystanders were wounded.
There was the 125 or something like that shot taken by a cop down in Texas I believe a few years ago with an M&P, one handed, while holding the reigns of a horse with the other. Drilled the assalinate with a single shot. It can be done.
That said, with the NYPD. I would argue it probably has less to do with trigger pull and to do with training. The one shooting wear several bystanders were hit, if the one I am thinking the video showed two cops running around a corner seeing the threat and one spinning in place while his partner damn near shoved his gun in his ear. Training.
MountainRaven
11-15-17, 15:02
Jesus Christ.
Neck yourself.
After you.
There was the 125 or something like that shot taken by a cop down in Texas I believe a few years ago with an M&P, one handed, while holding the reigns of a horse with the other. Drilled the assalinate with a single shot. It can be done.
That said, with the NYPD. I would argue it probably has less to do with trigger pull and to do with training. The one shooting wear several bystanders were hit, if the one I am thinking the video showed two cops running around a corner seeing the threat and one spinning in place while his partner damn near shoved his gun in his ear. Training.
Yes.
Gen5 Glocks seem to have heavier trigger pulls than Gen3 and Gen4 Glocks, but that hasn't stopped anybody from shooting them as well as, in not better than the older model of Glock.
Again, trigger pull weight does not appear to have an appreciable affect on accuracy until you're over 10+ lbs.
A shooter with little or no training will be unlikely to shoot a handgun with a 3-4.5 lb. trigger as well as a trained shooter with a 10 lb. trigger. (Give an average Joe a Wilson 1911 and put them up against somebody who is well-trained with a Glock with an NY1 or NY2 trigger and the person with the heavy trigger will probably outshoot the person wth the light trigger.)
There is such a heavy question of training in this argument that I don't see how anybody is even bothering with it. Throwing around one hit wonders from various police shootings is like talking about that one time at band camp - it really doesn't mean shit.
Doc Safari
11-15-17, 16:36
There is such a heavy question of training in this argument that I don't see how anybody is even bothering with it. Throwing around one hit wonders from various police shootings is like talking about that one time at band camp - it really doesn't mean shit.
I tend to agree. Reading this thread has pretty much convinced me that every gun should have a "fair-to-middlin'" trigger and the rest is training and practice, practice, practice....
Cops shooting 10+ lb. Glocks seem to hit bystanders more often than perps while cops shooting double-action autos (and double-action revolvers) seem to do quite well.
Regardless whether true or not, 10 lbs Glock (or 1911 trigger) is a completely different animal than 10 lbs DA trigger. I wouldn't shoot the former even if someone paid me, and I wouldn't have a problem with the latter.
Wolf.545 x .39
11-25-17, 09:29
I'm thinking about a Ghost Rocket connector, a heavier striker spring and a different plunger safety spring after watching a guy on a YouTube video who puts these 3 things in all his Glocks for about a 3.5lb pull. He had a lonewolf 3.5 disconnect or only. He was very accurate with his Glock. I was looking to just buy a Zev Tech Fulcrum for my Glock22 but am thinking differently now.
I'm thinking about a Ghost Rocket connector, a heavier striker spring and a different plunger safety spring after watching a guy on a YouTube video who puts these 3 things in all his Glocks for about a 3.5lb pull. He had a lonewolf 3.5 disconnect or only. He was very accurate with his Glock. I was looking to just buy a Zev Tech Fulcrum for my Glock22 but am thinking differently now.
I wouldn’t try to replicate bullshit seen in YouTube videos.
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Wolf.545 x .39
11-25-17, 11:44
I know but getting advice on these mods on Glicks is all over the map. Nobody seems to have identical upgrades with the Glock trigger.
I know but getting advice on these mods on Glicks is all over the map. Nobody seems to have identical upgrades with the Glock trigger.
It’s all preference. Most people can shoot very well with a stock trigger if they put the time in.
I have a minus connector and KKM barrel and shoot about 3” 10 shot groups @25yds) on a good day (sometimes less).
I’m trying a NY trigger next to see if I can produce the same accuracy ( I’ve read it helps reduce split times, so we will see). I believe dryfiring with the ny trigger has helped my shooting the stock trigger -needs verified though.
I personally will only use glock parts after reading about issues with parts that were supposed to be g2g.
One big reason many Glock owners list as to why they buy Glocks is all the support companies making parts. I often thought why do you need all these parts for a gun that is advertised as perfection? In fact Glock owners are constantly fixing problems with perfection.
curtmini14
12-03-17, 06:43
the big thing about glocks is with all those companys making parts is you can make it your own. if that concept evades you please sell your guns and buy a sling shot.
One big reason many Glock owners list as to why they buy Glocks is all the support companies making parts. I often thought why do you need all these parts for a gun that is advertised as perfection? In fact Glock owners are constantly fixing problems with perfection.
Do you really believe that whatever sights a pistol comes with from the factory are the best available? Even if they are cost-cutting plastic non-night sights basically used as placeholders until you pick out the sights you want? One of the advantages of having a Glock, pretty much everybody makes a Glock version of pretty much all of their sights.
Holsters too. Particular brand or type of holster you like? If you have a less popular pistol, good luck. If you have a Glock 19, yeah, they make that holster for it. And with popular lights mounted too (where applicable)
You want to go all out making it a race/games gun, with all kinds of aftermarket go fast parts? Whoever you're looking it, you can bet they make their stuff for Glocks, as or more likely than for any other random manufacturer.
Glock owners constantly fixing problems with perfection? Okay...now I know you're just trolling lol
Wolf.545 x .39
12-03-17, 08:50
Night sights in most cases aren't needed but there nice to have. The Glock trigger is far from perfect. It can be mastered but I've been looking at OC customs for a possible new trigger.
Night sights in most cases aren't needed but there nice to have. The Glock trigger is far from perfect. It can be mastered but I've been looking at OC customs for a possible new trigger.
I guess opinions can vary, but...night sights are a must for a defensive pistol. Being able to see your sights (quickly and easily at that) is pretty important
One big reason many Glock owners list as to why they buy Glocks is all the support companies making parts. I often thought why do you need all these parts for a gun that is advertised as perfection? In fact Glock owners are constantly fixing problems with perfection.
I’m pretty sure the troll has since been banned. Let’s just ignore this post, we have plenty of Glock vs the world threads to debate pros and cons of the gun.
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hopetonbrown
12-03-17, 20:34
I guess opinions can vary, but...night sights are a must for a defensive pistol. Being able to see your sights (quickly and easily at that) is pretty importantJust to offer a different opinion, former face shooters like Pannone (SFOD-D), Proctor (Army SF) and Kyle Defoor (DEVGRU) don't see the utility of night sights.
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Just to offer a different opinion, former face shooters like Pannone (SFOD-D), Proctor (Army SF) and Kyle Defoor (DEVGRU) don't see the utility of night sights.
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Generally, if you have a WML activated, you wont find much utility in night sights.
Likewise, inside 10 yards, unless you are in pretty much complete darkness you won't need them. And if you are in complete darkness how are you ID'ing your target?
The 'quick and and easy' find of the night sights is a byproduct of practice which also serves to allow you quick and accurate hits inside 10 yards w/o night sights - IF you can see well enough to ID your target.
All that being said, IMO any SD/HD pistol should have night sights, mine do.
Generally, if you have a WML activated, you wont find much utility in night sights.
Likewise, inside 10 yards, unless you are in pretty much complete darkness you won't need them. And if you are in complete darkness how are you ID'ing your target?
The 'quick and and easy' find of the night sights is a byproduct of practice which also serves to allow you quick and accurate hits inside 10 yards w/o night sights - IF you can see well enough to ID your target.
All that being said, IMO any SD/HD pistol should have night sights, mine do.
Mine don't anymore... Never liked having them on the rear sight and my front sight on my carry gun would collect dirt regularly enough that it often rendered it useless. Switched to a fiber optic front and am loving it.
In my experience sights become difficult to find and line up long before I lose the ablility to ID targets.
Night sights glow bright enough to get picked up quickly long before I lose the ability to ID targets.
The in between light and dark is where they shine. That lighting condition is very common here, especially indoors.
Generally, if you have a WML activated, you wont find much utility in night sights.
Likewise, inside 10 yards, unless you are in pretty much complete darkness you won't need them. And if you are in complete darkness how are you ID'ing your target?
The 'quick and and easy' find of the night sights is a byproduct of practice which also serves to allow you quick and accurate hits inside 10 yards w/o night sights - IF you can see well enough to ID your target.
All that being said, IMO any SD/HD pistol should have night sights, mine do.
That's what I found on the Proctor side of that post...you should always have a white light and should always use it in no light or no light so you'll always be able to see your sights.
For my part, it only takes one dry run around my house at night to find a plethora of locations where I could easily see well enough to identify an intruder as an intruder, but not see non-illuminated sights. No need for a light, not all of my pistols have lights mounted to them, and I can sure shoot the pistol better with both hands firmly on it than I can with one hand devoted (in full or in part) to operating and holding a flashlight. I haven't been able to dry run the same out in public, but just walking around dimly lit or non lit locations and imagining holding a pistol, or holding my thumb out in front of me etc, it's pretty easy to find a lot of lighting situations where I'd be able to identify a person as a threat but making out non illuminated sights either wouldn't be possible or would surely slow me down.
I think there's a reason so many LEA and LEO and armed citizens utilize night sights on their pistols. Because always being able to see your sights is a very good thing
In my experience sights become difficult to find and line up long before I lose the ablility to ID targets.
Night sights glow bright enough to get picked up quickly long before I lose the ability to ID targets.
The in between light and dark is where they shine. That lighting condition is very common here, especially indoors.
Yup.
Particularly if you find yourself in a darker or shadowed area of the room compared to the threat. It's not even like your front sight and the perp are always going to be equally illuminated.
hopetonbrown
12-04-17, 12:44
99% of my shooting is done where day sights are adequate and often superlative to night sights.
There's a night match this weekend, I'll be using an X300U for the remaining 1%.
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